Ever done this before?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- If you wrap a rope around a pipe and clip it back to itself, smashing the carabiner against the pipe, how bad is that???
Other carabiner videos
CARABINERS LOADED SIDEWAYS • Carabiners Loaded Side...
CROSS LOADED CARABINERS • BEWARE: This makes car...
HOLES DRILLED IN CARABINERS • I probably shouldn't m...
LOCKING CARABINER SHOWDOWN • Locking Carabiner Show...
HMS CARABINER SHOWDOWN • March Madness HMS Lock...
WIRE GATE CARABINER SHOWDOWN • Guess which carabiner ...
3 CARABINERS STACKED IN ONE HANGER • Climbing carabiners do...
Z2 Drill Powered Pulley
VIDEO • This tool changes ever...
PRODUCT PAGE hownot2.com/products/z2r
Petzl's warning about this concept www.petzl.com/US/en/Professio...
👉 Learn and SHOP at www.hownot2.com/
👉 Best EMAILS on Earth: www.hownot2.com/signup
👉 SUPPORT US and get gear discounts hownot2.com/support
👉 10% off ROCKY TALKIE by clicking www.hownot2.com/rocky
As someone who has side-loaded carabiners on trees, I'm glad to see it's not a big concern. Thank you for testing! Your channel rocks.
Saddle hunter?
@@koletilson2720 Changeover practice (ascend/rappel)
Where it becomes a big deal is in the lawsuit after an incident, should one ever occur.
If a bar is skinnier than 22 mm, you can probably just click the carabiner right onto the bar.
If the carabiner is locked on the bar it is harder to make a retrievable system
I’ve definitely clipped an alpine on a branch before 😅
You can always wrap the rope around several times, creating essentially a tensionless hitch. Then there is very little force on the carabiner.
no no knot
And it is better for the tree.
Good, yes, the more wraps, less force in the carabiners 👏👏
In tree work i do this all the time with a beefy steel triple locking biner, a butterfly knot and an extra manual locking biner because i always had the most fear of accidentally opening the gate. Thank you for testing this! Many people tried to stop me doing this before.
Arborist rigging typically involves the use of half hitches to take more than half the load before the carabiner, so it'd be interesting to see that tested. I always enjoy when you add more content related to arbs & rigging. Thanks for the vid.
They all seemed to fail by shearing off the hinge pin for the gate and then breaking/bending around the contact point with the pipe. I think it comes down to the ratio of carabiner length to the diameter of the object you are clipped around. With a large diameter anchor point the carabiner sees a pretty gentle bend radius, not enough to shear the hinge pin for the gate. With a tiny diameter pipe the rope almost passes through the carabiner parallel to the spine so cross loading is minimal.
I would bet if you tested a bunch of diameters that range from super small to larger than the length of the carabiner, you would find a sweet spot where the pipe is both small enough to have a tight bend radius, but large enough to get the angle at which the rope passes back through the carabiner steep enough (relative to the spine) to cause cross loading. A graph of the diameters vs break strength would likely have an inverted bell curve where the strength decreases until the "sweet spot" and then climbs back up to MBS range.
If all that is true then the "sweet spot" could probably be described by the angle the rope passes through the carabiner relative to the spine, giving a "Danger Zone" of angles to visually tell if an anchor like this would be significantly weaker than MBS.
Excellent testing, as a climbing arborist I find this content very interesting and helpful. I do this type of attachment all the time in trees, but only for positioning when using a carabiner, never for main life support, where I typically will use a Notch Quickie instead just to be sure. I've always felt that the dangers of loading carabiners like this has been a bit exaggerated by many people, especially when used on thicker branches and stems, but I must admit that these results still surprised me as they're way better than I would've thought. Super good enough! 😁👍
Hell yeah dude, sounds like you've been more conservative than me 😅 I've had quite a few co-workers nag me about this and just rolled my eyes at them, so this video is super vindicating enough 😂
@@corygrossman1 Indeed! Even though I've always *felt* that the danger was exaggerated by many people, I've had no data to back up that feeling and so I've chosen to be very conservative with this just to be extra careful. I will probably be using this a lot more now going forward, but knowing myself it will probably be with a 50 kN steel carabiner just to be *extra* sure. 🙈😅
Climb high and stay safe mate.
I feel like I have been waiting 2 years for this video. But I'm sure people will still say your wrong. Clearly your not. Super good enough. Thank you
Makes me feel better about climbing trees and really want one of those drill powered things.
You and me both! A lot cheaper than the competition, but still way outta my league.
It's a pretty common thing in treework and it's nice to see some tests thanks for that
This gives me confidence in my gear. Basically nothing I have ever done has gotten close to mbs. Thanks dude
I have done this quite a bit, even for anchors 😄 Only ever bent an I-beam style aluminum locker after using it to rig up slings like a chocker cable to haul small trees/branches with an excavator because looping slings or using shackles were too time consuming and inconvenient for the potential risk... (and I wanted to see if it would break, which is why I didn't use a retired steel locker) But I kind of have dedicated life protection hardware and separate used utility hardware that never get mixed up... I honestly expected the aluminum one to break because it was taking some weight and even shock loads "for research" but it just ended up with buggered threads and a gate that didn't line up because of the bent spine before getting tossed... (If OSHA or other people that consider this blasphemous behavior are watching, then this all occurs in Mine Craft of course) 👍
I want to see the small diameter tree branch than can support 15kn...
Okay, actually thoughtful comment, I suspect the threaded rod was the culprit in a lot of the rope/sling breakage. Especially that relatively non-static rope around the log, the cover was pretty clearly cut by the threads on the bolt. (TL;DR: super good enough)
It's not often that someone would tie off mid branch. Typically we aim to get into a union and or around a main stem with a branch just preventing slippage. But yeah all of these numbers have been "super good enough"!
Yess!!! Love the arborist stuff!
I was hoping you'd do some testing on this. I recently switched to a steel carabiner for this application. I see that probably wasn't necessary 😅
Personally, I'd love to see some pull and dropp tests with the rope runner pro. Maybe even on different ropes.
But I get that I'm probably one of eight people interested in that 😂
This video made me feel a lot better about my tree anchors I used with carabiners + rope years ago.
I’d love to own a Z2r, but I’ll just enjoy you messing with them!👍
4:24 dyneema is very slippery. A nylon rope has more friction around the pipe which results in a lower percentage of the force acting on the carabiner.
This could be the reason that the biner breaks lower with the dyneema
I'm a saddle hunter and I have learned alot of really good information from your channel keep up the great work 👍
I’ve been practicing some rappel techniques in my basement off of a pull-up bar using a system kinda like this, except I use 3-4 wraps around the pipe to help keep the carabiner from going wonky and the pipe and rope from getting damaged over time
Hey, as we again saw the large diameter pipe. If you are worried about necking in the future, fill the hollow internal with concrete. Its is strong in compression.
But then you have a 20kg piece of concrete filled pipe flying around.
If you have access to the pipe/branch, loop the rope over, and secure with a Stone knot using the carabineer instead of the fiddle stick. It takes the carabineer bend out of the equation.
Good to know. I'm using this forbiden technique (especially the last one) but just to hold my weight, not falling into it.
Hey great idea - for arborist types, could you try an alpine butterfly (AB) to a steel (and then aluminum) biner choked around a vertical stem - 4" stem (~ the minimum this cringing chicken would climb on spurs)/ 6" stem/ 8" stem to see if the knot and stem radius makes any difference. Maybe the choke doesn't even work on a 4" stem unless it's rope and ring? The choking biner thingy may be used on branches but there's lots of options there including just rope , all the way to Texas Tug etc. For stems tho, guys use Notch Quickies/ AB to steel biners to Al biners to rings to inventions on TreeBuzz as yet unproduced. Keep up the good work. Why you could even work up a proof of something to eventually change the practice in the ANSI Z133 !!!! Gosh!
Thank you so much for these tests and for putting time and effort into them. Still, I want to point out the fact that pulling something with hydraulic is not as real as it is in real action, I believe that the shock test is better since it often happens in sports and industry practice, let's say we are hauling something around 100 Kg to 40-meter high. We have 2 anchors on it, the top anchor suddenly breaks and now we have a shock load on the bottom anchor. Again, thank you. I have been following your RUclips channel and have learned a lot.
Thanks for continuing to put out great content
I always wondered how safe that was. Arborists often tie off a line like that when they're in the trees doing their thing. Cool to watch, and I was curious how much that hurt the ratings. Now I know.
Thank you for your work breaking my gear fear
Every arborist on here wants you to do this again with the types of carabiners we use... because we know we shouldn't... but you know... hypothetically how much can we get away with :)
Interesting to see, I've always chucked an alpine in just down the rope and clipped that to make a closed loop.
As an arborist, I'd like to see how a branch fresh out of the tree would hold against the branch test you did. (Assuming the branch used wasn't fresh of the tree😊 It looked dead & dry with light decay)
Love the video!❤ Super usefull enough info in there!
Dude you really do make breaking things fun & informative unlike any others I’ve seen. Really good work, keep it up!
Need a collab with Matt's Off Road Recovery.
You know, just in case I decide to rappel in my car.
To get a piece of tree debris to weigh enough to create these kinds of forces (even at shock load) they have to be high diameter pieces, which would negate most of these tests because the angular tensions shown here won't exist, as the clip would be mostly flat against the wood, which would deform to the shape of the clip before the clip deforms.
Like, your never going to get a 3 inch branch to weigh enough to damage a clip. Even a 12" branch would be unlikely. Bigger than that and the sharp angular forces against the side of the clip start to dissappear,as seen in the last test. I think the biggest concern is the carabiner coming unlocked
and for the last concern, just use triple-lock carabiners (the one used in belaying). While it may be an overkill, chances that something go wrong will be diminished to so high load, that probably carabiner won't be a weak point anyway.
I love the look and idea of the drill powered pulley.
That’s really interesting. I don’t climb anymore because I’ve switched over to kayaking. In whitewater boating we use 3:1 for freeing pinned boats. There is a lot of discussion about anchors, carabiners, slings, and rope breaking strengths. It looks like for that application our gear is super good enough.
I think the threds on the threaded rod might have compromised the sling.
Thanks for the testing.
I'd guess the thin branch test where the sling broke and you wondered how it did that at ~21kN was due to the threads cut the sling.
you basically put all the preasure at a couple very small reas which are often not exactly smooth.
Especially bad if you pullover such stuff like in the last test.
I used pieces of garden hose over small diameter metal stuff to protect the rope.
Might not truust my life with that but for rigging stuff it works
Funny and informational content, as always! Thanks :)
I am so glad you made this.
Great testing!
Love when things you didn't expect to happen happens
Thanks man, really good info for guys who work in towers
thanks for this one bro
nice video. thanks!
Amazing video 😀
I’ve seen some people use that on their personal anchor, sometimes while standing above the anchor. Maybe a fall factor 2 drop test can be interesting 🤷
Thanks for the great content!!
Would love to see a test of the JRB Cinch using a climbing ring.
super good enough.
Seeing the results of the tests with the SMC and Omega Pacific carabiners, I'm glad that I invested in buying both. I would never load them that way, but it's good to know that they'll hold up long enough to be used in an emergency evac situation if needed.
awesome test, loved the results. I think that he carabiner it's not being loaded with the full force because a lot of it it's being "losed" on the priction of the rope on the pipe
I would like to see you test wrapping the rope around the back of the carabiner once. we do this at work all the time to prevent crossloading. it never slips under "normal" conditions, but i wonder what it would take for it to slip.
Sorry I have a question that for sure was asked before quite some times: How comparable is a quasi static pull with a shock load of a fall? Would it give the same results?
Around the 10 minute mark, I think the sling snapped because of the bolt threads sort of cutting into the sling
You should do fall protection equipment.
Can you test it again but with in alpine to clip into like your rigging a pull through/ rope retrieval system
So take a steel biner and sideload as much as you want. Ive been using aluminum to cinch when going srt finishing a tree but that's 10 inch plus diameter. I guess im not worried at all now. Thanks.
i'd have to guess the sling got partially cut on the bar's screw threads then broke at that 20ish KNs from having some strands cut already
As an arborist, I salute you!
I think the test with the narrow threaded rod had geometry that put nearly all the load on the end where the sling looped around the carabiner, and since the distance from that loop to the threaded rod was short there was very little leverage. This would mean that one of the strongest parts of the carabiner was carrying almost all the load, and in a pretty optimal way.
The threaded piece is probably cutting into the rope on the all tread pull and the log pull .if you grab a all tread hard an and spin it in your hand you feel that it is pretty a abrasive compered to a smooth round stock ,even a bit sharp ,especially stainless and threads that is cut, (not roll formed)
Sometimes you have metal burrs on them that actually cut your hand when handling them . When you did the log pull the sling was probably fysicalay gliding over the threaded bolt that was sticking out the ridges working as little knives on it.
That's crazy, I was just thinking of messaging you about this this evening. Sometimes when I'm caving my cows tails (lanyard) is attached to the rung of a ladder using a grivel plume just like this.
One method I was recently shown is to clip the rope through the biner twice (it ends up spiraled around the spine of the biner once). This seems to position the biner to prevent side loading, but I'd like to know what other forces it puts on the system, and if the extra bend in the rope weakens it.
I’ve gotten side load carabiner comments on my videos and this reinforces my theory that if the limb/trunk is not too small it’s likely just fine. Also I’ve negative rigged some big pieces on steel carabiners and never bent one yet.
From my experience, of R.A., stunts, and arbor, most of your soft goods ar breaking due to the "sharp" edge of the All thread. Try wrapping the all thread in e tap , card board ,carpet, you k ow the usual gag that people use on set ups, and go from thwre?... also curious to what a full wrap around thw tree I.e. a frictionless hitch does to bend and break the carabiner as then you have direct forces applied to just the bend of the line bending the link over the object?!
I think the smallest diameter bar actually put less side load on the carabineer. There is likely going to be a worst case diameter in there somewhere, it depends on what angle the rope applies pressure to the carabineer.
I'm actually really curious about this kind of choking around some sort of anchorage... I come from a construction background where we would have a 5/8" diameter lifeline with a spliced eye and a snap hook installed on it and we were always taught that if we did not have an engineered anchor or embedded anchor to clip to.... it was fine to wrap it around a piece of Anchorage and clip it back to itself as long as we think whatever we were wrapping it around would hold 5,000+ pounds.... Oftentimes that meant large concrete columns in towers or open web steel joists... Is this safe? I know a lot of people working in construction would love to find this out.
Maybe some insight, or maybe I am wrong, good chance I am, but I like to put formula to things. Carabiner roughly 30 deg from pull direction: sin(30) * 31Kn = 15.5Kn
M12 threaded bolt has a 2ton (metric) shear strength but only a rated bolt. If the ends of the all thread you used were not fixed it would have collapses at half that.
Can you test the tension less hitch. If you put several wraps around an object does it compromise the rope strength? Thanks in advance.
So the little pipe creates a bigger moment arm which means more force multiplication. The bigger the pipe the closer you get to it behaving more like a 1:1 pull on a flat surface.
Interested to see what break tests you would get if you clipped the carribiner to a munters on the rope. Probably full strength till the knot. Just would be interested in the comparison.
Are double action hooks more prone to damage if used in that manner?
A thin bransch (of steel) does put a lot less stress on the carabiner since it's less leverage on the carabineer, just like over an edge nor protruding a lot.
I’ve questioned the arborist world about how much concern cross loading a carabiner actually is. People can’t handle powerful falls anyways even if the gear does hold. It would be interesting to look at the green log chart to see how long a limb would have to be at 6” to get the loads in the video. Several guys use carabiners in rigging, which can easily see larger drop distances, all be it the tree dampens the force some while loading, and smaller limbs likely will have leaves to partially slow the fall too.
I’ve only seen ropes break during rigging, not carabiners. Perhaps others could leave experiences which carabiners have broken during tree rigging.
Just a thought: I'm sitting on a roof and just got roofing felt tar on my rope. My Petzl Rig suddenly isn't super happy, but I'm just wondering, what happens with tar on a rope? Is it still super good enough?
I fail to understand why you'd ever do this, if you have much better alternatives such as an anchor knot or mast hitch with a slip knot. That's what we use in mountain rescue in Germany. For us, it's all about minimizing the amount of equipment you need and building absolute mount points without using carabiner at all, for example.
Perhaps it's the different use cases of equipment...? When we build a system, we build it to carry the full 22 kN with at least one backup. For certain rescue techniques, we easily get 15 kN of force on each of the sides which is why we love strong trees and never loading carabiners on their cross axis. Sadly, many trees have been destroyed by fire and bark beetles last year in our areas; some places look like a moon desert.
Would it be affected if the “pipe” wasn’t smooth? Like if it was 1” allthread, would the threads cut into the rope and/or damage the surface of the carabiner?
Good video. I'd like to know if there's any issue with using an aluminium ring, wrapping around branch, a loop back through the ring with a carabiner blocking and barrel stopper on the end. Rings are cheap and seem much better for this purpose, also stays nicely on the rope.
I got a 70kn rated steel one just for extra safety but I imagine its ok with the 30kn DMM alu one.
Never heard any complaints about that ring setup. Super common
And that is why they often use shackles in this situation. Much more similar load to intended performance envelope.
Thanks for chasing the rabbit!!!
It's funny how many times I have seen the "you're side loading your carabineer" comment on tree climbing videos. This seems to prove what I thought, they were meme or troll.
Or concerned but lacking information
Dude, those people didn't have the information that you have now. It's good practice to be conservative with personal safety practices until something is proven to be save.
The only reason I was concerned was because there were so many people saying you would die if you "cross load" a beener when using it to cinch a rope around a tree. Fuckin idiots.
I see rock heads like to adopt tree trimming techniques, but you didn't shock load them.
What if you do one rap and then clip it?
Did the sling break on the "all thread" due to the treads being shaper than a round bar?
Very likely! try spinning a stainless allthread stock while
Grabiii6ng it hard , it may cut your hand ,
Roll /press formed normal threads is more rounded on the ridges, and actually stronger than cut dito due to the fibers in material not being cut of when making the threads.
The threads on the threaded bar were acting like little knives and cutting the ropes and slings.
Your pipe is probably expensive, maybe you should fill your pipe with concrete to prevent it from crushing more. Maybe a 1" PVC pipe in the middle so you can run your restraining cord through it.
I have been hoping for a solid pipe for a while now!
"damnit, my thing that breaks stuff broke everything!"
the Z2R how little momentum would in theory be enough.. not referring to ease of comfort for the pulling, but simply how small a modern brushless rotary powertool could you get away with and still deliver enough torque for licting the average male adult.?
some of these modern 12v and 18v drills.. deliver a surprising amount of torque for their size. with modern high current IMR/INR LIion cells
I wonder if the warning was as much about weakening the branch as it was side-loading...
I get a kick out of how you still sound surprised by proclaiming “it broke”. You break A LOT of things.
Algo 🎉 rithm
Weight test stacked hexes
Nope, if it is aluminum biner they break. Done it with steel and they bend. Both jam lock the gate.
Why not make a knot upstream and clip there to avoid loading the carabine in a perpendicular load?
40kN! Holly shit! How much can a human pull, 2kN?
I may have done this.. A few times. Apparently it's fine? ish
bruh I got a huge variety of steel carabiners even huge ones and already twisted ones. (they were made that way)
Anyone know if Ryan has break tested a BHK/ BFK? Trying to search through old videos but he has SO many! It's not coming up with a word search.
Hey Ryan!! Can you break test a BHK if you haven't already?!
Not specifically testing a BFK, but it's part of the system in "hownot2 linescale2 vs 3tons of concrete"
Definitely worth watching the whole thing, it's one of the best videos on the channel.
❤ thank you so much. Super appreciate!
11:00 If that was a real tree and I was repelling off the rope I would put the rope where it isn't rubbing on the bolt, but its good to know you can still get 14 kn out of that.
I'm taking a break from calculating the pullout force for some lag screws going into PSL engineered lumber for anchoring a railing on a roof deck... and the highlight of this video for me is that the bit of branch held 6+ kn. (But overall, these test scenarios screamed "Oh no! Not that! Take a second and rig a better anchor!" even if some of them would be fine for a rap.)
🍀🍀