Aren't knots free?
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Termination plates retain more strength out of your rope they say. How much you ask? Well, we couldn't find that anywhere so we tested it. Turns out it's 80% of "full strength" instead of the 70% we get in knots. What would you use these for? Thank you Mark Hanna for donating these plates for science.
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00:00 - How strong?
02:31 - 12mm in bollard & Fig 8s
03:38 - 12mm in Termination Plate
05:08 - Where my friend uses this
06:03 - 9mm in bollard & fig 8's
07:06 - 9mm in Termination Plate
08:53 - 6mm tests
10:14 - Dyneema tests
11:08 - Conclusion with spreadsheet
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I used to use these plates on large construction sites for fall arrest/fall restraint applications. It is far easier to teach people to follow a single diagram than to teach multiple knots.
Until you need a knot and don't have one of these plates in your pocket.
You keep it in the gang box with the ropes and fall gear. Very good use
It’s prob part of SOP which has to be followed so workers don’t die. I’ve seen people get hurt from ignoring sop. It’s there to avoid dangerous mistakes and maintain quality
I'm a tower climbing safety and rescue instructor, and a former safety inspector. I use termination plates in class precisely because they are NOT knots, and they have pictures on them. Many climbers think they know knots better than they do. That said, I don't generally use them myself when not teaching.
I've always taught that they retain about 80-85% of the rope's strength, so that's nice.
One concern I had was whether the 12mm rope you used was static/super static, or whether it was dynamic. Most termination plates are specifically designed to be used with static ropes, since your shock pack absorbs the fall. The strain of the rope may affect results.
Love your stuff, keep learning!
EDIT: One reason that people use them is to maintain a higher rating on their ropes to keep safety guys happy. For instance, if I have a 7,000lb rope and tie a figure 8, it would be hard to argue that I'm above the 5,000lb required by OSHA/ANSI. But using a termination plate I can argue I still have a 5k capacity.
This is EXACTLY the application I was thinking of. Maintaining the sweet sweet 5Kn ansi/osha/NFPA require. Actually, NFPA may want a 2:1 safety factor iirc but I don’t remember to be precise. But yeah, in industrial or rescue settings that 10% can be quite a bit. Especially when you’re already dealing with 12mm rope.
I guess the counter argument to be had here though is that if there’s ANY other knot in the working part of your system these plates are pretty useless. Though I’d like to see how they perform where they’re anchoring like a z rig or other mechanical advantage system.
If you are working under 1926 (presuming tower climbing falls under this) the OSHA requirement is 3000lbs under the positioning standard. This requires a maximum fall distance of 2’ which is usually applicable to most rope systems, certainly any methods using direct suspension.
@@adamwood9144 we often use them for vertical lifelines, aka fall arrest. We also use a two rope method, one for fall arrest and one for positioning. It's easier to just use 5k for both, so they don't have to figure out which is which. Also, we use them for rescue, so the extra capacity is nice.
All that said, we usually just use 5k ropes with factory terminations.
@Jamoni1 using a 2 rope system is great, no requirement under 1926 to do so. As such not sure the backup has to conform to any standard at all. If you assume it does good work practices should keep the max fall to 2' and comply with the work Positioning standard.
To be honest 1926 is pretty basic and doesn't mention anything specifically about knots, force multipliers, increased loads during rescue etc.
I work to IRATA standards which are deemed compliant. We use 11mm low stretch which the manufacturer supplies an MBS for a fig 8 (approx 20kn/4400lbs) so well in excess of the 3000lbs required under 1926 work positioning.
@Jamoni1 if you are working to 1910 it gets more complicated as there are specific requirements for rope descent systems in the walking, working surfaces section. Also there's a max height of 300' that you can't exceed without proving that an alternative method is not achievable (which is a weird requirement and smells of lobbying to me).
You guys should have them put the plates on extreme gear but just have them out of stock 100% of the time, then for the checkout button is says "Checkout: How to tie a knot for FREE" which is just a link to a video on how to tie the basic knots.
Im a stunt rigger in the film industry. We use something simular, a "Gold tail", although it's not used as a rope termination but rather a friction deceleration device for when a performer has a long fall (I have been on a 12m decel) to decelerate him before impact with the mats. The gold tail also has a useful feature: the holes in the device can be opened along the long side, using a sliding aluminum gate, allowing you to thread the rope into the device without feeding the tail through. The gates are then closed and secured by tightening wing nuts.
The information you provide is extremely useful when considering a stunt rigging situation, thank you for the great work! Especially when considering how much we work with Dynema and Tech 12.
Also have used goldtails for stunt/ fx deceleration. Still like progressive loading with shot bags softened by bungee though
I have no intention to go climbing, or anything that involves my body hanging from anything really, but I love this channel. I find the engineering well done and breaking things in a scientific way is great. I am also amazed at just how strong these things are.
They would make great storage hooks 😄
Technically your body is always hanging by your muscles
I totally appreciate your comment. However, a comment by another participant at a technical class I was once in will always stick with me. "I don't like ladders, you can't fall off of a rope."
@@hotwasabi8312 This is why I like laying down. 🤣🤣
@@Greenketch1 I don't go up ladders either. 😁
As an idea: You should test an Edelrid ohm just for fun
I would like to see some number about ohm. However I believe this will be pain to test comprehensively because resistance applied by this device strongly depends on angle of device and rope to the belayer and climber.
I second that
yes please!
YES! I outweigh my wife and most consistent belayer by 80lbs. She has belayed me on some SPICY leads in the city of rocks, and we are currently saving up for an ohm. I’d love to see this test.
@@surikatga they could do a set of tests in the gym and drop tower to get a range of real world results, then use the drop tower to find the absolute limits of the device
So I’m a highrise window cleaner and we use knots, we are currently on a building where the restoration workers are using the termination plates(no knots anywhere). It has to come down to how you were taught, both ways “bomber” in these applications. Our knots are decent only on rope decent system and the other crew is using swing stage for ascent and decent. While ascending, the weight in KN can go off the charts if the equipment catches lips on the building.
- and do the other guys have a backup, or are they on a single rope?? (asking for a friend.)
A device like this can always have more wraps around the body - eliminating any likely pull through (cyclic loading and unloading is the real problem there - a stopper knot is always a useful - dead stop) - while ensuring the ability to untie without a knife - though the bends (first few are the critical ones) in this plate seems to be too sharp. I would imagine a device should be - at least - as thick as the largest diameter intended to use with the largest radius - single sided with relief on the back edge, for a unidirectional use.
Reminds me of some arborist gear thats mainly used to add friction in riggning systems as a breaking mechanism. Notch safe bloc for example. Would love to see more arborist stuff tested on the channel
Well this is fun, I told Taylor about termination plates after using them for tower work and can say that while they might be knife knots when pulled to breaking strength, the ease of adjustment after a 5-7kn load vs a fig 8 is very useful for ropeswingmoab. Do I think they’re useful for everyone, no. But in specific situations they are definitely nice to have. Was I fooled on the amount of strength retention they had over a knot? Yes, but it’s good to know that they still help give us a bit more of a safety ratio. Great video and happy to feel directly targeted in a RUclips video for once.
We use it for rope access with 13mm rope. (OSHA hates knots in rescue lines)
Splice is the ultimate termination anyways
Worked in the cell tower industry where we did a decent amount of rigging work. We had a few of these laying around and used them for something completely different. On cell towers we need to send tools and bags of equipment up sometimes many at a time. We would clip this to the factory terminated end of a rope and then clip as many bags to the various holes as possible. This made it easier than clipping straight to the rope termination because once it was in the air the carabiners (for the sometimes very heavy bags) would sit on top of each other making it difficult to release them from the rope.
Sounds like you are describing a rigging plate. As you describe It would be easy to use a termination plate as a rigging plate, there are also a wide variety of shapes and configurations available.
I've used one as a termination point for a zip line in arbor care. We don't tie it off just use the friction created to control the load till it hits the ground. Makes for super easy reset.
- basically like a rack descender.
We use a similar product on anchors for access to residential roofs during emergencies. The product we use is called a goldtail, and is specifically designed as a friction device to perform controlled lowers - we use chainsaws on roofs in the middle of storms, so it’s pretty necessary that we can get someone off a roof if something happens to them while they’re up there. The goldtail is much thicker, and has sliding gates on the side to put the rope in; no threading the end through. The extra thickness means the edges can also have a larger radius, so the friction should be spread over a larger area. They work well for our use with static ropes that are unlikely to get shock loaded.
I guess my main point is, there aren’t a replacement for a knot (thought this particular product seems to be, weirdly).
That is great! The dyneema results are fascinating. Few of us (not me!) Have a aetup that can so consistently break 12 mm rope
Seems to me that if you are running a line under part of itself that gets cinched down that is a knot. How different is that than a clovehitch or lashing? Both of which are considered knots.
Cinching down don't affect the strength. It's the sharp bends that the ropes don't like. The termination plate keeps all the sharp bends out of the rope
That reminded me of Kong Slyde, Kong Kisa and all those adjustable plates where some are designed to slip too. Some of those can have a place when adjustment point is needed but I'd probably never trust any of those more than a knot, just to be safe.
This is so informative!!! Fantastic reporting; I enjoy this kind of content!🌻🌼🐝
Pretty cool that this thing isn't actually useless, there's a reason to buy this. I was perfectly ready to hear you talk about a bad product.
Actually most suppliers of arborist gear in my country try to sell you stuff like this... A piece of aluminium with a hole (or two if it's very fancy) and like a meter of rope tied to it in some mysterious way and now it's suddenly a sloopy-doopy-sling-thing and costs 400€ waooowwww
rigging plates get pretty expensive. the arborist/climbing industry charges high based on their certifications (expensive), patents (expensive), manufacturing in 1st world countries (expensive), import/export taxes with most gear not original to your country, and a rather small consumer base with all things considered.
Would really like to see figure 8 to bowline comparison. In my industry we used bowlines any time we have to haul heavy loads specifically because of how easy they are to untie. I'd love to see loading them to close to failure and then attempting to untie the fused knot. And yes, I am aware they are not as secure but once you have a static load applied, the knot isnt coming untied if the load is never unweighted. We also only use in non life critical applications.
Search the previous videos because he’s done several with knots
loved watching the slippage in the knots and plates on these
and particularly with the bite, I would love to see how various rope suspension ties work on single lines and/or doubled-over lines
particularly comparing jute, hemp, hempex and the colourful poly bondage knots
have you done it or would need examples etc?
I do have one for my 11mm static rope when terminating. I rig per the picture you use as well but throw a simple knot in the tail after the second pass under. I also use it as a stacked rigging plate for multiple points to the front eye. Sure didn't pay $50.00 for it though. My plate also appears thicker and also has better rounding of the holes too.
I prefer the Shizll Spiderplate with an increased bend radius. A four hole rigging plate or three hole pulley also grips well without knots. I have pulled trees over with my truck on Amsteel using this method. The line comes out with relative ease and isn't damaged.
I would like to see some break tests with the Spiderplate, DMM Rigger pulley, and four hole rigging plate.
Very informative, thx, guys.
Reminds me of the old rappel racks, but w no moving parts. We would sometimes terminate systems with those racks and were always told "it was close to 100%" rope strength, as compared to ending w a fig8-bight.
Major difference between these & rap racks is that the racks are designed to offer continuously-adjustable friction while these are permanently pre-set friction. As for retained strength, somebody was pulling your chain-likely 80% (best) for a standard-sized rack. Only Tensionless Hitches will retain nearly 100% rope strength.
Yo that fail test apparatus is scary AF. Impressive build my guys
I wonder how cyclical loading would behave. Also maybe tying off the tail with things way below spec is worth it
These plates are for ONLY 11mm to 19mm (7/16" to 3/4") ***KERNMANTLE*** or 16mm to 19mm (5/8" to 3/4") ***3-STRAND*** ropes, according to Werner Fall Protention in their manual for Rope End Termination Plate, model A3100000.
Pretty much how I feel about those plastic things that come on tent lines and the myriad of products sold for truck tie-downs too.
i think the biggest deciding factor is the bend radius. just like how you test with the bollard setup because of the larger diameter if say you made one that was 2 times as thick i think you would get results closer to the bollard test. maybe even that 90% mark. increasing the radius means more contact area increasing friction like on the bollard it also drastically improves the bend radius of the line itself due to not having to make a sharp turn dispersing the load over a larger surface. another thought is to sand blast a matte finish so its smooth but still textured.
Cant tie knots? Tie lots
That's what I do with tying furniture to my car lol
If its not a knot it’s a tangle 😊.
As somebody that works in rope access, I’m excited and nervous hahaha
That looks a hell of a lot like a bigger version of some firefighter bailout rappel devices. Seeing how it slips... I bet you could make it work
That's a nice key chain you got there.
I think where this might shine is as the top point for a slung stretcher with a couple of carabiners clipping to the termination plate for ropes from the stretchers rail - that would give an easy method to free the sides of the stretcher for placing a person into or taking them out of it. It had a lot of rope creep through it though as it tensioned up. 🤔
We use these in stunts as a soft catching brake.
I might use them as a termination for standing rigging on a sailboat. The ability to adjust the tension is a improvement over standard turnbuckles and I appears easier to adjust as no tools are needed.
That sounds kind of weird to me because I’ve only ever seen wire used for standing rigging. Are you on a tall ship or something?
@@hypophalangial no I have two boats that have cable wire standing rig. Since none of them see high abrasion it makes sense to not need wire. As Superior abrasion resistance is The only benefit to wire
I'd be curious to see how a blocked fig8 fares against this plate with regards to % of breaking strength
seeing as the rope usually breaks at the first bend (whether it's on a knot or with such a plate), I would think that simply having the rope blocked in some way on a steel fig8 introduces a large enough radius on the first bend to give you the same slightly higher break force... but obviously seeing it on a break test machine would be nice
Yes! I’m so glad you made this video. OSHA makes people use termination plates. They are so confusing and dumb. A knot is just as strong when it’s done properly. Termination plates are bureaucratic hot garbage. They should not exist.
I could see using these in an entertainment fly application. For trapeze rigging & stays.
I know I've done termination plate type things with theater fly systems that are more temporary (so no lock mechanism and usually less options for counterweighting) that you still have to get at a rather precise height that you might not be able to get a figure eight hooked to something to work for
i have a little plastic one of these meant for securing a canopy down to a ground spike. i kind of hate it though, and i always end up just using some manner of hitches to get it where i want
I've seen similar products used to add friction at an anchor to reduce the 2 to 1 at the top. I would be curious to see how much it would reduce the force.
I've never seen one of those. I'd probably use it as a bathroom pass in a highschool or maybe a keychain for shed keys.
Would be nice to see the bollard tests for the 6mm ones, blog addition maybe?
They could work super good for holding eggs !
Re the video description, may I point out it should say: "Turns out it's 80% of "full strength" instead of the 65% we get in knots".
I don't wish to sound pendantic, but the difference as per the tests is more useful that the 80 vs 70, in the description.
Personally, I think I would use a bigger rope if I thought 80 vs 65 was too close for safety.
This is more equipment to carry, more equipment to throw away if it falls, and what to do if you think your rope is too thin for knots, but end up having to tie a knot?
References among other commenters to a/ good for inexperienced users as you *don't* need them to learn to tie knots, and b/ better meeting OHS regulations do, however, make complete sense.
Used to get bite on middle of rope on safety line in power plants ggives you the ability to lower someone to the ground if their pick failed or they fell out for some reason, needed the ability to lower safety rope to the ground but also the ability to lower them down if they were near the top most of this work was inside a power plant boiler.
I will use them in my Harness wile sport cimbing.
Rope Swing Moab is the best! Nice tests Ryan
They look very decorative. If you’re gonna build something that is semi-permanent, I feel like the extra ten percent could be significant as the rope ages beyond its natural lifespan, especially if you’re not humping that shit on your back all day every day. I’m not sure they’re fifty bucks pretty, but they are pretty.
(I wonder if they make cheaper mini versions at a paracord size. Now that would be bling.)
Cheers for the video. More Arborist gear please.
I have used an imitation SMC large rigging plate to set up a 2:1 with a pulley and biner in one end and the end of the rope zigzagged through the other finger holes. I never got around to putting a spliced eye with thimble in the last hole. That would be kind of neat hanging on the wall, Of course, the pulleys should have rotating side plates. I was never really comfortable with thimbles under heavy load. If they are made from alloy steel, they may crack, revealing a sharp cutting edge, and if they are malleable, they may fold and leave a very small radius to stress the rope. It seems that these safety devices only work well where they are not needed.
I would love to see what happens with 19mm (or whatever the upper limit was) on that thing.
honestly, I can see those being used as places to clip carabiners to, wonder what the actual breaking strength of the metal would be in that situation
I only tie my shoe laces…. And some garden lines. I think my interest in macrame is what made the littlemen inside the computer think I might be in the market for a 50 dollar plate with holes. Ha, got you there little men! I. Am. Knot!
Makes me wondering if the Kong Kisa or Slyde could be repurposed for something like this? Any plans to test the kong devices on the drop tower?
Suggestion :
You should test few ropes with or without adjonction of a tubular protection in the knot.
Tubular protection is used on kites dynema lines.
It make à Huge différence
Can you test a French bowline (with a stopper knot) versus a figure 8 (with a stopper) verse a regular bowline (with a stopper)?
Companies trying to resell their brass knuckles after finding out that theyre illegal in most places
The hardware(wire shoe that clamps onto wire) i use on powerlines for catching/deadending wire has a rigging eye built in for attaching hoists or rope blocks.
For the guy who uses those as terminations for his rope swings who will re-rig and tighten them im curious to know how he does the rerig/tightening and if an additional offset rigging eye on those would help him or not.
So now you made me curious.
What’s the strength reduction through a bar rack decider and a 8 decider?
You may have already done it.
I would be very intrigued to see if you could use them as a screamer. There are reusable ones I have seen but never used them.
I'be heard over and over how knots weaken rope but every rope that I ever saw get broke 50+ years, it always was the rope itself between the knots that failed. odd that.
I wonder if you could use larger knots and have multiple ropes per plate, don't know what it would be used for but might be useful for something
Is there a benefit to the plate being easier to see? Makes it easier to verify that there is a stop vs a less visible knot? Still seems like something you want to check directly
So now when the rope snaps you get a flying piece of metal upside your noggin instead of soft rope.
Might make a good shot glass holder.
Instead of this plate or figure 8... friction knot on the bite?
How?
You fold a section of the rope near to the end to create a bite. Then take a tail, put it through the anchor/carabineer. Bring the end-tail back to the bite. Threat the end piece through to the bite (between folded rope) and wrap around both lines (bite). Try to crate type of friction like evolution of Schawbish or VT.
Only tested it in hammocking under body weight (110kg) forces but with quite extreme (90*) angles.
Wonder what would it take at full strength? And if it was any close, or better, then figure 8 or even the termination plate?
I don’t know how I got recommended this. I don’t climb or anything. Never even heard of these plates. Kind of surprised they work as well as they do, to be honest. Sounded like a gimmick. Good engineering.
I would like to see the difference in strength between a sewn eye and a buried eye and a figure 8 on a byte
I can see use for these when terminating a dyneema zipline
Seems an interesting device for some boat rigging, but I don't see the point of using them to replace a knot, maybe to divert control lines or something like that.
I do not use a termination plate. It does however raise an interesting question. From the Via Ferrata world there are devices for fall arrest at large fall factors. The one I am most acquainted with is a Kisa by Kong. It allows for a dissipation of force at a controlled rate but is resettable after use as opposed to something like a screamer which is single use. I have encountered pepes that encourage there use for things like Ice where the resettable feature could be very useful. Have you encountered any of these?
Going to use this to tie into my harness. Should be super good enough, right?
Until it smacks you in the nuts!!
If I had some termination plates, I'd use them as the most glorious paper weight - I don't really have any other uses for them.
Hey,
I recently bought the mighty lock from BC. It is a 10kN WLL line lock. I think it's very interesting. Could you test it?
I tried it once, knots are way easier and super good enough.
I have not seen them before but now…
I want to stress test them and take them to catastrophic failure like you did with the carabiners…and the rope.
I just want to see it destroyed. 😈🤷♂️
Yeah....
I can see this as useful if you have a stiff large diameter rope that is hard to tie knots in, or if you're going to repeatedly load the knot where you'd likely turn anything into a knife knot (like your rope swing reference). Outside that... maybe just toe a knot...
Hmm, they would make great sandwich presses for campfire cooking... Stick em right in the fire, place sandwich on one and the other on top...
more than three, all the sailors out here want a good solution to how to terminate dyneema and be able to re-tension it after it has given up its slack, without using deadeyes like rigging.
Shout out to my man Jake for suggesting we use these 🤘🏼
In the mid video and I still don't understand how is that thingy used. Ok, to avoid knots but in what use case? Like I add that thingy on harness? That just can't be right.
I wanna see him test samson amateel ropes. We have hot ropes we use and we use them to pick energized wires and I'm just curious to how much knots derate the rope.
Petzl claim 100% rope strength with the "Kootenay", it woul suit well for that kind of application
How about the bowline?
I would be especially interested in the bowline on a bight.
It’s threaded like you’re re-lacing a la sportive mythos shoe
How can I send you pictures of real life application of this device being used. It is the standard across the board for construction workers to use as a life line. As a Rope Access Technician, I've wondered about boatsman chair guys not knowing about the kind of ropes they use and gear.
Drop test it! We use'm on our 5/8" safety lines for scaffold work!...?
I can see where you might want to use these plates as part of your process, like the friend is doing. But for general rigging I'll stick with knots.
I use that for lab testing in industrial fall protection
how do you use them?
@@rolobotoman for unterminated rope life lines
Now do the Kong Kisa impact absorber please!
The first cut on the sling was only on the red nylon.. i guess the nylon still adds strength..
do you guys know if dressing a figure of 8 knot makes a significant difference to strength? as opposed to just cranking a knot?
Crazy
What's the brand of the 9mm poly?
Depending on the length $50 for an extra 10% may be cheaper than a rope with a higher rating. It'd probably have to be pretty long though. I would love to see someone do the math.
that's why i always bring bollards with me for climbing