Top Rope Anchor - Setting up a strong anchor for TR
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2015
- Top Rope Anchor - Setting up a strong anchor for TR - How to Set an anchor for top rope climbing the way a professional certified rock climbing instructor would.
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I used to be an AMGA Rock Instructor, but haven’t climbed in years, and looked this up before taking some friends out tomorrow to refresh. AWESOME video and just how I remembered it.
One tip to those that may be interested: on the second leg of the anchor, instead of using a double bowline (or bowline on a bight) as pictured here, you can wrap the tree with a sling, put a locker on it, then attach the second leg of the anchor to the carabiner with a clove hitch (backed up with an overhand on a night clipped into the biner). This is how I usually did it when I was guiding. It makes it much easier to adjust that second leg. The clove hitch is super easy to adjust.
Totally!! I agree! I guess I was going for the minimalist approach, trying to use less gear. Thanks though!!!
Everything in this video is done right. This guy is a very proficient instructor unlike other guys who post videos with questionable technics.
Estimado Roberto, agradezco muchisimo tu comentario. I do my best to offer a good quality video, and it helps to have a background on film production too! Cheers!
I agree. There is so much bad and unsafe advise on RUclips it is refreshing to find this content.
Hahaha- "take! take! take!" - the voice in the background at one point.
Overall, this is a pretty nice video of the covers the basics well. Here are a few additional comments.
1) this of course only works if you had a completely second rope available for building an anchor around the trees.
2) When you put your road around a conifer, especially a pine tree like this, there is a decent chance you're going to get tree sap on your climbing rope. This is something you want to avoid. Try to use deciduous trees if possible.
3) The method shown of using a prusik knot to the one strand of the red rope that is fixed, and clip the prusik loop onto your belay loop, is an excellent technique to safeguard yourself near the cliff top, and is not taught very often, nice job.
4) He did not mention it in video, but he's got a nice black sleeve that protects the red rope as it goes over the edge. If you do a lot of top roping and set up your own anchors away from the edge, this can be a nice thing to have. You can also make one yourself with some old garden hose, just cut a slit through it and slide it over your rope.
Thanks for your comment. I really appreciate that!
In response: 1) Absolutely right. You need a second rope. However, that second rope can only be a 30mt or so static rope. So, no need to haul a whole length.
2) Yes, you want to avoid getting your ropes messy. You can use some commercial rope protectors or designate a piece of canvas or old pieces of jeans to be used between the rope and the tree.
In general, I have seen this practice performed all the time, specially by big groups, such as climbing camps or corporate groups. When money is not a big issue, getting sap on a piece of old static rope, is really not something to worry about. Cheers!
But then you get the sap on your hands and then you stick to the holds better :D
eyescreamcake climbing gyms hate this one simple trick
Why is tree sap bad for your climbing rope?
@@Xtreme_Airgun_Slugs It’s not dangerously bad for your rope it’s more of an annoyance. It attracts dirt, and dirt is not good for your robe, and the sap is difficult to remove. Like the original poster mention, if you do this a lot and have a designated anchor or rigging rope that you don’t use for anything else,been getting it messed up with sap occasionally is acceptable.
I recently took a class through REI. This is the same method that they taught. The only different is they started with the twin rope bowline so you have the instructors tether prior to tying the BHK. This is a great video and reinforced what I was taught. Thanks!
Hi Kyle, tying to the anchors before the BHK is also helpful for equalizing the master point. In this video, Alex had to readjust one of his bowlines, which would should be avoidable by using the method you mentioned.
thanks for the tutorial
Excellent video, especially for beginners like myself, thanks Alex! I really appreciated the details such as always wearing a helmet (I see so many people disregarding this - even when there are numerous loose rocks along the route and on the edge), using the prusik to approach the edge (takes seconds), balancing the anchor points, etc. Safe climbs!
Wow incredible sport. So much knowledge to learn...
Great video. Thank you!
Great video, very well done
nice clean execution of technique, explained well and filmed well.
Awesome video!!!
Nice video man thanks!
I like the edge safety loop. Have not thought of that with the extra slack in the rope. Good to keep in mind. Thanks.
Hey Robert! Thank you for your comment. I really appreciate that!
Excellent video on how to do it safely!
thanks John Pike!
I see the BFK/BHK being used a lot - what advantages does it serve over a straight figure-8?
The prusik attached to the safety tether works but i would argue a gri gri is a much more secure and elegant method of attachment. If i were to use a prusik it would be to attach myself to the first leg of the anchor when approaching the edge to tie my bhk.
I also think if you had tossed the climbing rope down first and then built the second leg using a sling and clove hitch it would have been easier to get the exact equalization you wanted but less efficient with materials.
As always these are just my opinions so take em worth a grain of salt. All in all super solid vid. Thanks for demonstrating.
Thanks for your comment, Billyjack Cundiff. I agree with you on the Grigri to approach the edge. It would be safer, too! However, not everybody has a Grigri, due to the cost of it. Maybe it's more accessible here in the USA, but if you think about the rest of the world (not western Europe) where people practice rock climbing, the Grigri is much less common, so, my goal in this vid was to show how to do it with more accessible techniques. Thanks for your comment, though! This entire conversation generated by this video has been incredibly constructive to others and, definitely, to myself as a climbing instructor and filmmaker! Cheers!
In order to achieve equalization, I was taught to tie the second leg and then go back, pull the slack out of the lines, and tie your BHK. Just have to make sure to leave enough rope at the edge to tie the BHK so the main anchor point rests in the appropriate spot. Fantastic video, thanks for sharing this!
Heyyyy amigo excelentes propuestas. Saludos
Que gusto me da que hayas encontrado mi canal de YT. No dejes de subscribirte, mi buen Carlos. Espero que estes muy bien. Saludos a la familia, y un abrazo!
Grato saber de tu trabajo, seguimos en contacto
this is one of the best vids I've seen yet, short of not using a tree saver. If you are going to put a rope protector on the rope where it goes over the cliff, at least do the same around the tree....you cannot get pine sap out of a rope using soft detergent in a washing machine....you have to use chemicals which is bad for the rope......I have tried to do that as a test on a test rope and the sap will not come out as per the manufactuers instructions....
Here's a pro tip for getting tree sap out a of a rope of anything else - mayonnaise.
Don't ask me how it works, it just does. Let it sit for a couple of minutes before you rinse it off.
Having said that, it's best to avoid getting tree sap on your rope in the first place.
If you find yourself top roping off of conifer trees a lot, you should probably get a few big loops of 1 inch webbing and use those as your anchor points. It will be much nicer on your rope in the long run.
thanks for the info on the mayonaise.....I will try that......would you also recommend a salad dressing in the final rinse as a softener?.....lol...it a salad joke. thanks
vegetable oil
What brand of static rope is that? Does it matter what brand I get? I'm wanting to get 100 feet of static rope without spending much money that I know is going to be safe, and im assuming that any old static rope off amazon isn't the safest either. I would appreciate the help
Now, AMGA recommends being tied into the end of your instructor tether with figure of 8 if you're going to use a friction hitch there. I find gri-gri easier. Great video
Gri-Gri would be better. Trusting your life to one friction hitch isn't a great idea. In this demo he's sitting down in a good spot, so the friction hitch is really just a back up (and he kept it nice and tight) but If he went over the edge it would be inadequate. The stopper knot in the end of the instructor tether is also meant to block a Gri-Gri from going off the end of the rope, not very convincing for blocking a friction hitch. Most instructional videos out there suck. This one is ok, but there are a few details that could be easily taken out of context.
@@busterjesik6980 what about a clove hitch as a safety line? Allows you to feed out length as you need it
Wondering if pine sap is good for ropes, also could it cause rope to stick in future use at critical point in belay or rappel?
Rudy Schwarz , great question, but I don't have a great answer. I don't think it's good, but I wouldn't say is terribly bad to get some small spots on your ropes, considering their strength. Also, remember that you want all your components backed up. it's also a good idea to wash your ropes every once in awhile with non bleach soap. There are some brands out there. Daisy chain your ropes and wash them in the bathtub with lukewarm water, or inside a laundry bag (mesh bag) in a side-load laundry machine.
Awesome instructional, Alex. Do you close out the bitter ends of your bowlines with fisherman's knots?
Hey Sludgebaby! Thanks for your comment. And yes, I do back up my bowlines with fisherman's knots, that way I guarantee that I have at least a foot of tail. Besides, the Bowline knot, when not weighted, it tends to losen up, so it's better to back it up. Cheers!
That makes sense. Also, which knot did you use for the master point? It was a bit hard to see in the video.
Great video thanks. Would this same technique be fine with webbing or would you recommend something else?
Hi Benjamin! Thanks for your comment and question. Webbing is being used less and less in the climbing community since the strength and durability of kernmantle ropes has been proven to be more efficient. However, using webbing is absolutely fine, as far as you use the right knots appropriate for webbing. Note that the so called Water knot has been proven to roll and therefore, fail. I recommend you to use extra long tails and an Overhand knot as a back up to the water knot. One more thing: with webbing you cannot build your "instructor's tether". You would hace to add a secondary anchor to attach a kernmantle rope for your instructor's tether. Cheers!
Is it not easier to equalise the anchor by adjusting the master point knot rather than walking back to the tree?
I'm no good with heights but can see the attraction of this sport the adrenaline rush must be immense.
For some people it is, but a surprising number of climbers are not in it for the adrenaline, rather the serotonin when you reach the top :)
@@leighrebecca44 Think I get my serotonin from chocolate, haha
what was used to cover the rope from abrasion? (black cover)?
Daniel, I used a rope protector. Many companies sell different varieties of them. This is a pretty simple made out of canvas. It also has a loop to attach a cord that you can girth hitch to the rope and prevent it from moving.
Great video. Where did you get the rope cover that was black? I can only find ones that cover around the tree and not one that covers the rope at the edge above the double carabiners. That would be better than hauling a mat up. Name of the company that makes the product? Thanks.
You get them from PMI, or Pigeon Mountain Industries. But other manufacturers make very solar ones.
@@AlexRSanders awesome! thanks!
Great tutorial! Quick question: what is the red knot that you attached to red rope to protect yourself? Thanks.
+Kevin Zhou Prusik Knot, I got it :)
+Kevin Zhou That's right! It's a Prusik knot. You can use any other type of auto block knot or even your Assisted Break Device, such as a Cinch, or Eddy, or GriGri. Cheers!
Alex R. Sanders Thank you! I appreciate your advice!
You are very welcome!
Awesome video! Would a 7mm static cord work for this?
For what part of the system?...
Can you give c pulley and z pulley video.
Great video. Would have been nice if you showed how to rap off the tether and transition to the rope, to rap down (if you weren't scrambling down), but that would need a camera over the edge, I guess. Is there a good video of the best way of doing that transition?
Hey, I do have another video, Transition to Rappel, here in my channel. That where I show how I go down from my anchor - and the tether, for this matter- and transfer onto the rappel. Check it out!: Transition to Rappel.
Thanks for commenting!
@@AlexRSanders just what I was looking for! Thanks
Do you have any information on rope solo? primarily attaching your harness rope to anchors?
Could you elaborate on your question? I am not sure I understand what you need to know, Brian. Sorry, and thanks!
@@AlexRSanders Ok so here is what I know tie in with a figure 8 add a back up put a stopper knot at the other end of the rope attach rope to grigri+ climb to the first anchor and clip the rope, is there anything I'm missing?
@@officerwebb620 as far as You are backed up at every step of the process, meaning, being redundant, you should be fine. And you mention making a knot at the end of the ropes. BRAVO! That's really incredibly important. Remember that a considerable number of accidents every year are due to people not having a knot at the end of their systems.
Excellent informative video. I know it’s basic stuff but slowing down and showing the anchor knots and why you chose the attachment method you did would be helpful. For example you stated you used a bow line but on the right tree looks like you finished it with a figure 8 and on the left I couldn’t tell but maybe a mule knot.
On the right he did a simple bowline and finished it with a double overhand backup knot. On the second tree he tied a double bowline with a bight, again with a double overhand with a bight. The masterpoint he created for the middle was a BHK. Only ways (generally) to set up a top rope anchor on pieces of natural protection is by doing a bowline and a double bowline with a bight like he did here, or to do a bowline and a clove hitch secured to a locking carabiner locked to a sling or cordelette connected to the second tree.
Can you rappel down to your BHK from that tether? Then go direct to the BHK with slings/PAS, then double rope rappel to the ground? I'm trying to figure out the safest way to rappel with a system like this without bringing a third rope just to rappel to the master point. Also, what are you using for an edge protector? Thanks!
+Jared Kemper ,
Thank you for your great question! And yes, you can rappel down to your Master Point (MP) using your Instructor Tether (IT). Just make sure that is long enough to reach a few feet below the MP and make sure to end the system with a back up knot to avoid running out of the system and falling to the ground. You will need a second rappel device and a way to secure yourself while you load your second system. Please check my video on How to Transfer Safely to your Rappel System: ruclips.net/video/VeoZNsaTD64/видео.html
+Alex “Mountain Man” R. Sanders. Great, that video is exactly what I was looking for, thanks for the reply. These videos are great by the way, I've learned a lot. My only question now, is the second belay device necessary if using an atc? It seems like you could rap down to the master point on the closed tether with the atc backed up by a kleimheist, connect to the master with you personal anchor (I use two slings girthed to my soft points with lockers to connect to the anchor), then remove the tether from your atc and thread the climbing rope for a double rope rappel. Once I'm connected direct to the master point, the rappel process is no different than cleaning a sport route, right? Or am I missing an important backup somewhere? Thanks again!
Jared Kemper Yes! The important thing is to make sure you are connected with two points at the different safety point, namely the tether, the MP, and the TR. So, since you use your PAS (Personal Anchor System) to connect to the MP, and you are still connected also with your back up knot (Prusik or Klemheist) to the tether, then you can disconnect the rappel device and connect it to your TR. Then I would disconnect the back up knot from the tether and connect it below your rappel device (unless you have two slings to make your back up knot on the TR line before you transfer the rappel device from one system to the other, while having still your other back up knot on the tether), and then you can grab your break on your rappel line and disconnect your PAS from the MP. Great feedback!
how long is the rope you used? do you have an average rope length that I will probably be able to use anywhere?
Thanks for your question, Amir!
I generally use a 60m, but depending on where you climb you may need an even longer rope, such as a 70m. However, most climbs in almost any crag are set for 60m.
I hope this helps. Best regards!
Quick question-- Don't take a fall on a static rope, I get that. But if your dynamic rope is connected to your static rope, wouldn't you still be taking a fall on the static rope?
Andy, good question. Consider that even static ropes are somewhat elastic, and even if it wasn't, the dynamic rope is elastic enough to absorb the energy of a fall. However, it all depends on the system: What kind of fall are we talking about? How long? How much weight is loading the system? Is your equipment (the dynamic rope) rated for such a dynamic fall? I'm assuming you are not talking about a top rope (TR) system, for there wouldn't be a need of catching an actual fall, but rather a hang... If you want to tell me more about the system you are asking about I may be able to give you a better answer. Thanks for your question!
I am missing the whole part when he ties a messy knot (?) for the master point, he just comes up with rope and ties a knot, which rope and what knot????
Is called the Big Hinky Knot or BHK. Basically a huge double Overhand.
@@AlexRSanders thank you!!!!
What length of static rope would you recommend?
10 to 20 meters of static rope should suffice for most scenarios.
What was the knot mentioned at about 2.10? I cant hear what you say :)
Thanks
I mention (and make) the BHK or Big Hunky Knot. It's basically an Overhand knot but on a double bite. The important thing about this knot is that you have to either pass the loop tail over the knot at the end, or you clip it together with the main strands with your master point carabiners (you end up cliping all three loops. Thanks for asking!
Also known as a BFK. You can figure out what that stands for.
Is the red rope a static rope, or a dynamic rope?
Semi static
Could you use webbing instead of static rope?
You can, but I highly recommend you to use overhand knots to join the two ends of the webbing, instead of the so called, water knot. And definitely make sure that you have two solid anchor legs.
Alex R. Sanders just curious whats your reasoning for not using a water knot?
Hey Jared,
This is why: ruclips.net/video/W00xgm-wEzI/видео.html
how long is the rope you use to set up the anchor in this video?
Hi Gabe! The rope I used to set the anchor is about 30 mt or 100 ft roughly. It's static rope of 10 mm.
Thanks for asking!
Hi Gabe! The rope I used to set the anchor is about 30 mt or 100 ft roughly. It's static rope of 10 mm.
Thanks for asking!
Looks like Castlewood Canyon
Luke Connell , it's actually in Boulder Canyon, Boulder CO.
For some reason, I don't trust the prusik as a tether. I prefer the clove hitch.
Totally a respectable opinion. However, prusik knots are very reliable once they are loaded. One other thing: you don't want to be on vertical terrain hanging on one single prusik knot; remember that you need always redundancy. The prusik knots are used in this scenario as fall-protection -not on vertical terrain, but near the edge. Thanks for your comment.
Prussik or Kleimheist
Nice video thank you for sharing I also like what you did with your channel you have my subscription would love to have your support as well looking forward to catching up on your channel thanks again my friend
Thank you for your comment, Tactical_Bushcraft. I will do the same and subscribe to you channel.
Cheers!
That all...SMH MORE video
I love this guy's pessimism. The first tree would have held a tank. Good video though. (And of course, better to have at least two anchor points). I saw a useful guide somewhere that you should rate your individual anchors and if they add up to ten, you're good. E.g. The first tree there would rate a 10 on my scale, so only one anchor point needed (Although two points of attachment wouldn't hurt). If you have two anchor points and you rate one at three and the other at five, you need at least one more. (All equalised, of course). If you rate the anchor at less than three, probably not worth bothering with! Not very scientific, I know, but perhaps useful as a rule of thumb. (If replying to my post, please choose a stick smaller than the diameter of your thumb to beat me with)! :-)
Thanks for the feedback, Calum Piober! Yeah, I agree with you; the first tree alone would've been more than enough, although it's highly recommended to use at least two anchor points to stay redundant, and both of them could actually be attached to the same tree, when this one seems to be a strong and healthy tree. Thanks for your comment! Cheers!
I don't think it's about the tree in danger of being uprooted during the climb... It's more about having a separate protection in case the other rope gets snagged and severed, especially in high traffic areas. Having both legs of the rope on one tree is not redundant enough, since they both could get damaged at the same time. At least having a separate point several feet away allows you to lower the other climber to safety.
Has redundancy ever killed anyone?
Please add some foam/padding to avoid damaging the bark of the tree. Imagine what would happen if 200 other climbers do the same thing over and over again. The tree/s will eventually die. Sap should be the least of your concerns when rappelling.
Great point. Unfortunately it's not a common practice among climbers , but certainly something good to suggest and start doing. I'm glad you mentioned that and I'd love to start creating awareness about it. After all, it's up to every individual to create the change we want to see in the world. I'm with you on this one! Cheers!
The thing to worry about when using trees in rock climbing is actually the rope rubbing against the tree. This can happen if climbers rappel off of a tree, since they pull the rope at the end. However, using trees for stationary anchors as seen in the video is actually nearly harmless for the tree, provided the climber takes care to avoid rubbing the bark when initially wrapping the rope around the tree.
Webbing wrapped around the tree instead would work and not damage the trunk.
TR ?
Top Rope
Too complicated, I just tie a knot to the tree and attach myself to a carabina and done I self belay myself
Please delete the music. So hard to hear. I cant see what kind of knot you made
Unfortunately I can't delete the audio, I'd have to upload a new version of the video, but I'm sure you can bring down the volume. You don't need it to "see" the knot.
Thanks for your comment.
that anchor isn't equalized....one tree will be taking more stress than the other.
Looking at the diameter of these trees... honestly there's no need to worry about that too much, in case that were truth, but actually the anchor is very well equalized. Thanks for your input anyway, all comments are welcomed!
When he adjusted one of the legs he equalized it. It was definitely equalized.
I think the anchor is very well equalized. And, the new paradigm in anchor building is not "equalization", but "distribution", meaning that recent studies have shown the true equalization is pretty much impossible to achieve, and you should aim to distribute, or share the load between a minimum of two points.
Each of those trees could easily hold a truck, much less a top roping climber. Equalization is something you worry about when constructing anchors with multiple pieces of placed protection that you have no way of properly analyzing their failure potential. So, while you're technically correct that one tree might be bearing more of the weight than the other, it just doesn't matter. And the setup is redundant. If, for whatever reason, one of those giant trees fell over, the other would still be there holding your toprope.
+Andrew Rice You should always be in the habit of equalization. It's a basic fundamental of climbing. Saying don't worry about equalization in certain scenarios wroth climbing is like saying don't worry about body blocking when fielding a grounder to short stop in baseball. Sure, it might be ok a few times, but all it takes is one fuck up to ruin the game plus you get an error tacked on. In climbing, that fuck up is a fall, which can severely injure or kill you. Stick to fundamentals.
I'd avoid use trees if you can. If everyone keeps doing that, the ropes will cut into the bark and kill the tree.
Hi, what is that master point knot called?
Nicholas Murphy , it's called the Big Hunky Knot or BHK.
Big Honking Knot or Big F**ing Knot. imgur.com/a/7gORp