Do You Really NEED a Belay Carabiner? | Climbing Daily Ep.1266
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Get the belay Carabiner's: bit.ly/3gNtEJV
A belay carabiner is a great way of adding some extra safety to your belay set up. However, Matt isn't convinced. Luckily DMM's Gear Expert is on hand to explain why you should add one to your collection.
Do You really NEED a Belay Carabiner? | Climbing Daily Ep.1266 
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"i can use your expert knowledge to fill in my massive holes"
"my wife wouldn't think the same"
i think they have special bond in the making.
I got a DMM Ceros for my GriGri after noticing that my carabiner routinely rotated or got crossloaded. The carabiner is fantastic, the GriGri always stays in the perfect position (because of the "horn" stops the device being pulled to the right when holding the dead end, and the belay loop clip stops the carabiner from rotating, which is an improvement over the DMM Rhino). Would recommend it.
The belay carabiner, as mentioned by David Rothwell
down below, was developed for a Munter hitch or HMS hitch (same thing) before belay devices were available. It can still be used that way. I've done it for a rappel (abseil) after I dropped my tube type belay device. The Munter requires a large clearance area because the knot flips back and forth as you belay. It's murder on ropes, so no one uses the Munter method anymore unless you left your belay device in the leaves at the last climb or dropped it. .....hint.... learn the Munter hitch.
Love how Matt keeps saying ATC instead of Tube and Ben carefully tries to get a mention for the Mantis in. The ATC is a Black Diamond product, Matt... ^_^''
I know a lot of people who do the same thing - it's kind of a gerericised trademark at this point. Like a dumpster, or a band-aid.
One excellent aspect of a Belay Carabiner is the Italian Hitch or Munter Hitch as it is also known. Used for belaying if you lost your ATC or GriGri, or whatever belay device you may be using this versatile knot would save the day.
Something I do with my belay carabiner is I clip my ATC into the small part before opening the gate to take my carabiner off my harness, and the ATC stays in the small part when the carabiner is on my gear loop not being used. By doing that, I can always open the gate on the belay carabiner and move the carabiner around without worrying about dropping my ATC. It may seem like a small point, but when doing multi pitches it massively reduces the chance I'm going to drop my ATC, which plenty of people do from time to time.
I got a Rhino with a twist lock that use it with my GriGri+, I must say it feels so good and safe. Totally recommended.
"Fill in my massive holes"
😂
I literally had to pause and check if anyone picked up on that ;P
Murray Steel went right over the head of the post elementary school viewers.
Man I thought this got X rated very quickly lolol
I do like specific belay carabiners. I find that a good test for any general carabiner for belaying is play around with it setup on a harness for belaying and see how easy / hard it is to get it to cross load. For those not across carabiner loading - pickup a carabiner and read the ratings on it. It will generally give you a rating for end to end strength (how its meant to be used) (usually around 24kn) gate open strength and loading across the carabiner (both of which are much lower numbers). The much lower strength when putting load accross the carabiner is the reason behind wanting a belay carabiner that will stay in a good orientation.
In terms of specific carabiners - the belay master is great, I love how its really easy to visually inspect that the gate is done up and how it prevents cross loading.
The Rhino is a nice carabiner but its still possible to have it cross load while using a grigri. Its just harder to have happen than other devices.
I mostly use HMS screwgates when I climb, but the GriGri works fantastically on a Petzl Sm'D autolocker. It stays put, doesn't crossload, and is dead easy for belayers of any level of experience.
When i started climbing i bought a climbing starter kit. Had an ATC, harnes, chalk bag and such. But also a Belay master from DMM, with the plastic locking thing. I still use it to this day, and i love it. It take you 0.5 secounds to close it, so i really dont see how its "time consuming".
It's not just that it's time consuming. It's annoying when you're outdoors multi-pitching and you have a carabiner (weight) on your harness that's only good for 1 thing, hard to open with one hand in a stressful situation and just makes you drop it from 200m high on someone's head. Also it's impossible to put in some bolts. Also some much-used knots don't work inside that carabiner (like the halbmastwurf).
Because I love me some halbmastwurfsicherung. That’s why.
I own something very similar to the phantom HMS from wild country, fantastic for multipitch climbing. I would consider the phantom when it comes out give that light weight.
I've used plenty of krabs to belay in the past. Out of curiosity I got the Ceros quicklock and honestly, I've never looked back. It's easy to use and effective. No brainer.
What a sublime science! More! More!
1:53 He means pear. The Belay Master MkI plastic bit has sharp corners and damages ropes so it needs to be deburred. Has this been improved?
Yes. Love mine cos it means i defo won't kill anyone!
But can you use the twist Ceros as part of an anchor? I don’t use oval biners for sport or trad, only pear shaped ones, so would a little internal wiregate really be a problem for rigging?
My only concern with using a dedicated belay crab for rigging would be that when clipping wires you could create burrs or sharper edges on the dedicated section of the crab, those could then cause small cuts into your belay loop when belaying and weaken your belay loop if you don't check your crabs after each trip. Personally I just keep my belay crabs with my belay plate and would only ever use my belay crabs for rigging if I ran out of all others! Just my opinion though!
I'd love some feedback on this, but at my climbing school I was taught about the "three actions" where the belay master takes three actions (clip, screw, pull back the gate) to open. Is this principle not practiced widely?
Safety standards for climbing differ all over the world. The point of those standards is not "what should everybody do" but: how can I create a standard way of teaching in a way that will result in the lowest chance of accidents whilst still keeping instructions affordable/sensible for newbies. Every experienced climber out there has his/her own safety standard and what he/she does and doesn't find acceptable risk-wise and effort/time-wise. Mostly based on what type of climbing they do or how crazy they are. Doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to what your school says. But also don't stop asking: 'why' ;)
I am sooo glad I did my climbing when a sticht plate was state of art belaying device and any decent screwgate was your belay crab.
Still got my 'plate for the odd day out.
Love the rhino w quick lock for my grigri’s. Really love DMM.
I have a twist lock belay biner. I never take it off my belay loop and never causes me any hastle. Total quality of life thing. I find it makes everything a little easier.
You just climb with your belay biner dangling from your crotch? Doesn't it get in the way?
@@simonsimon9880 I'm late to the party but I have a buddy that clips his chalk on his belay loop when he top ropes cause he likes having it in front. Not sure if his reason is of male body design jokes or ease of reach but it's never bothered him
I'm loving his voice
So good
The firefighter use large carabinets specified for belaying as well. double munter hitch on carabiner wont twist your rope.
No you don't really need one. 11 minutes summed up
There are lots of things you don't "need", but they make climbing safer or more pleasurable. I'm sure climbers from back in the day would look at loads of new equipment and think it wasn't necessary. Personally I think the belaymaster is a brilliant piece of kit that gives me peace of mind regarding cross loading and even more so when I'm being belayed by someone newer to climbing.
An ordinary oval will do the job just as well.
@@control1922I am old and have been thinking of taken climbing back up, more than likely only in the gym. That said back in the day I used to belay with no device and I also learned to repel without any equipment. That is how the AMC taught me. I climbed all over the country back in the day and never had any real issues. I did eventually use a figure 8 to repel with and my second would belay me with. I never used a device. It seems there is lot of new gear to choose from. I am sure we did many things incorrectly by todays standard, it was a different time for sure. Some places you could keep secret unlike today. I am looking forward to learning new things.
@@mtadams2009 Awesome. I've climbed with some older guys using those sorts of techniques. Not sure I'd be brave enough!
@@control1922 You are far better off today, not only with the modern gear but also climbing gyms, RUclips there is just much more knowledge being shared. My climbing world used to be so small. Take care
I love carabiners
I have the belay master carabiner, and honestly, I'd never belay with anything else. I don't consider it bulkier or more time consuming, it's just safer and there's no reason not to buy one if you're buying your first belay carabiner!
I'm so confused by this thread and Matt in this video. I have a BD gridlock screwgate, one of the cheapest non cross loading belay biners you can get, and it works perfectly. The piece that prevents cross loading is attached to the gate and opens with it which I prefer as it makes it way easier than i think that metal DMM piece would be when getting the biner off your harness. Also you can still just clip it in normally like the metal if the screwgate is open. The other thing is, how many people here actually use their belay device biner for other things?? Even when multi pitching, the only thing I use my belay device biner for is my belay device, how else would you even keep it on your person if you're using the biner for something else? These biners seem like a no brainer to me.
Is it bad that I've always thrown those little plastic bits away ?
No you don't, but I do have one, from decathlon, a Simond Goliath HMS with wire gate to reduce cross loading. I've used one of those DMM crabs with the plastic gate-gate, absolute pain to use at times.
I agree. The plastic thing often snaps open during belaying and gets into the way. I now use one with a wire gate at the back and love it.
How on earth do you manage to open the plastic thing on a dmm belay master by accident ???
Belay master is occasionally annoying but I like them.
@@Mechtl10 Maybe the design was faulty? Those things aren't supposed to snap open at all if the screw is done up properly. Return it. 🤷🏻♀️
duke of nuke the steel wire of the atc is just popping it open. For any other belay device it works so far.
(From Japan) I cannot understand why someone would like to complicate the situation? (Simple is the best)
So I used to choose oval one as long as it allowed.
It waste of time, in case asymmetric one were set upside down and being nervous
no, I used a normal hms screw gate for years
The reason i've never bought one is that you are racking up a one trick pony. The belay biner won't be as useful for other applications. I want a biner that has better functionality and can be a jack of all trades if (god forbid) I drop a biner on the climb.
The dmm belaymaster (first one) is often usable as a normal hms biner as is. But the plastic cap can also be removed if you do need the extra space. So in my opinion that makes it a multiple trick pony more than a normal hms ^^
What makes a belay biner a one-trick-pony? It can be used just as easily in other applications, as any other biner can be used for belaying.
The average climber uses their belay biner many times more in a day than any other single biner; why wouldn't you want to choose one that is safer and easier to use in that role?
One who fiddles is one who makes mistakes. So x4 was less fiddling as before. These "belay carabiners" are basically reinventing the wheel. Good job DMM and thanks Matt for info on this. Easy adjustments to a basic device to make climbing a little more fail safe. Thanks epic tv
Short answer, no pay attention
Long answer, no pay attention
_I like the "Rhino" concept, make plenty of sense and seems like it could be really useful._
I always use them with my grigri and it works great. Just make sure that it's orientated so that the "rhino horn" impacts a sacrificial part of the device. It does dig into the gri gri a bit so I have it against the plate as if it damages it I can replace a part that the whole device
I used a dremel to modify the plastic clip on my belay master so it closes after only 2 turns of the screw. Saves a lot of time overall
*cringe* Surely this is irony?
As a person who has never climbed, however I admire the sport...It is amazing that the design of many of these are to prevent climbers from "forgetting to screw up the latch" Like is it really that easy to forget to secure the thing that is keeping you from falling?
In any high safety need environment, people go through a process of becoming competent in whatever they are doing. During that time they are hyper vigilant about safety because they don't trust themselves yet. Once they know what they are doing that safety often gets watered down because they think they know it so well. Or you get to chatting with someone and forget to do something critical.
Edit: climbing is a very social sport and there are lots of very good people in it but just like anything else, there are a few people who are set out to ruin the fun for the rest of us and do stupid things and make us look bad. I generally prefer bouldering because it's fast and technical and kinda safe.
There are a lot of things going on while climbing. Sometimes you are stressed out or tired or hungry or dehydrated or trying to beat a coming storm. Lots of ways for things to go wrong. Gear solutions can sometimes mitigate a problem when the mind has failed.
jsut get a dmm gromet. little bit of rubber and you dont need to have a one trick pony belay karabiner
Why don´t you show the best one? The Black Diamond.
Except that even cross loaded most screwgates will still hold the worst falls meaning the aggravation of racking these isn't worth the it. They are protecting you from a phantom risk.
Steven Claggett you think a carabiner crossloaded would take a bad lead fall? Test it out
@@kyleweedon5851 well I happened to be at rei when I got this notification. Quick survey of the HMS carabiners showed the lowest cross-loaded rating to be 6 KN.
Now follow this link
m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Forces-at-work-in-a-real-fall
Tldr: FF1 = 2kn @ belay
Summary : yes I think even a weak HMS biner would take a bad lead fall.
Next
Steven Claggett ff1 is the worst TR fall. Lead can go up to FF2. And even if it can handle a cross loaded FF2 fall, it’s uncomfortable for the belayer.
Personally, I use one like the last one he showed, just narrow at one end and wide at the other (with a BD ATC)
@@JamieClark actually a FF.5 would be the worst TR fall and it involves the world's worst belayer. A FF2 is indeed the worst fall you can have but two things. 1) any party that encounters a FF2 seriously messed up. If you think you might end up with a fall early enough to raise that possibility, place a jesus piece. 2) oh it will certainly be uncomfortable for the belayer but it has nothing to do with whether the biner is cross loaded.
Lead can go up to FF2 if multipitch climbing. If you're doing single pitch then FF1 is the max.
Is hard to believe that you are so naive about belay dedicated carabiners
you don't *need* anything to climb. go up barefoot and free solo. whatever. it's all about what you're trying to accomplish with your gear. that diaper belt made out of tubular webbing you'd never use since you have a harness will keep you just as safe as your fancy BD Solution. i *prefer* to wear a purpose-built harness and use a pear-shaped locker when i belay.
Haha!! All these gimmicky belay carbs. DMM phantom for GriGri and Attache for ATC... never had an issue and I'm never changing.
Carabiners are useful for lifting heavy loads of weight, cause the distribution of the weight in the cables
That "rhino's horn" looks like it can get catched in click-up's intricate shape and do more harm than help... Eg. prevent it from clicking up.
OMEGA PACIFIC JAKE FOR EVAR!!!! BEST BY TEST!!!!
Bee..lay
Hmm, for grigris the best is oval. Dont need shit like that, 3times more expensive.
Wee-kend
Let me sum up the 11:46 video. NO
What a boring conversation about nothing.
Sponsored by DMM.
I hate how they say belay. Jesus like nails on a chalk board
Not even watched it. No. They just make dumb people dumber!
first!
so basically you don't need one, but it can be nice, but don't get a DMM one because they're not as good as other brands. this is meant to be an ad for DMM but really this dude doesn't represent the brand well. For example - "this is the phantom hms belay carabiner... it's basically just a carabiner". this whole thing could have been more authentic and honest rather than being a showcase of DMM products for no other reason than to advertise.
Wooooow! This guy is SO BAD! Putting me to sleep! Going to die of boredom 😪😫😴💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤
Is Matt Groom ok? He asked the stupidest questions here 🤦🏻♂️
Most of these are for people that arent real climbers. You I use a belay biner but for none of the idiot reasons give here. These are for people that shouldnt be climbing.