It's so refreshing to finally have an updated list that better represents where the competitive player base is now compared to 2015. Of course there's still tweaks to be made, but that comes naturally with the growth of the game.
You have to understand that these are meta calls. When that tier list was made around 2015 Chu Dat was placing well consistently and Wobbles was still thought to be a contender, while falcons where really struggling to even place top 8. In contrast now Wizzy, None, and Johnny are heavy contenders and Icies players basically fell off before wobbling was even banned.
@@IceDemonTouya2 People totally forget that Chu had top 5 kind of results in the first half of 2016, and it seemed like, back then, about every other tourney an icies that no one had ever heard of would randomly end up in top 8.
I don't know man, I don't think ICs have ever been played at their skill ceiling by anyone who has ever played them. Fly and Wobbles pushed the character(s?) farther than anyone else ever did, and even between the two of them there was stuff they each did that the other didn't. Genuinely, if those two did the fusion dance, I think ICs would be a non-contentious Top 5 pick (with or without wobbling).
@@myilmazalper I also lost my wife and children from a drunk driver's hit and run accident in 1996, while this thumbnail didn't help me find them, it helped me find peace
So Cody thinks Fox, Falco, Marth, Puff, and Sheik should be in S tier, S tier should be unordered, and also Puff should most probably be last in that tier. So should there be an S+ and S- tier, Puff is the only one in S-, and S+ be unordered?
I think in a tournament setting that Puff kind of gets bonus points for forcing other characters to play by very specific rules. It's a weird thing, because it theoretically means she's a clear fifth place, but in practice could be like third.
I could be wrong about this, but I feel like people overate matchup inexperience somewhat. Idk I think at some point we gotta acknowledge that the character does well in a particular matchup rather than x player doesn't know how to play vs x character and lost cuz of it
@@tylercasea lol honestly accidentally picked one of the few players amsa has only played a few times. he did beat him hella long ago though thats obviously not relevant
@@Eval999 to be fair, I don't think Japan has many puffs either. Amsa is still by far the best in Japan anyway right? On top of that aren't most of his losses to fox anyway? Not that much different when he comes here
What is the point of tier lists of it just changes with the best players? What is it really saying? What does it truly indicate? As someone who has only recently gotten into this stuff, tier lists more than anything befuddles me... it just seems like they just look at the top players change the list with that. Not 8 months ago or so people were saying puff was easily number 1 because of Hbox, now puff is #3 at best? The top 20 is almost all foxes, and one Marth, and Marth is number one simply because of one amazing player who’s the best? What about all the other Marths failing? What’s going on? What is the point? It doesn’t make any sense to me at all, im sorry but the tier-list to me says almost absolutely nothing. We could accomplish the same thing by simply looking at the player rankings year to year.
The purpose for most people who make a tier list is to combine the current results with the potential of each character. Looking only at results is a really good way to gauge the viability of each character, but it has flaws, just as judging only by potential has its own flaws. For example, Cody puts Sheik higher than most people because he believes in the untapped potential Sheik has against Fox and Puff. If you agree with him and he ends up being right, then that's a great insight to inform your character pick. Or maybe you disagree and prefer to look at Sheik's tournament results only, which show that she's probably not as good as Cody says. Both are fine choices, but if not for the existence of tier lists I may not have encountered many top players' opinions on a bunch of things, which are valuable.
I think people are severely underrating Falcon. I've only seen the character get better over time, especially after None's introduction to the scene. Division 1 of SCL has 3 Falcons, and S2J has already started off the year with the Galint win.
Hbox was #1 for 3 years with Puff and this only changed last year so Puff>Falco makes sense, especially since Puff is so underdeveloped. Falco has way more representation so he’s way more developed.
@@kevinmcdanal2395 if we are going purely by results why not just do it like armada and put puff on first already? After all puff has won more majors than the other top 3 solo combined since 2017.
@@WM-xv1el I think the point is that this tier list was made by a collection of surveys from many of the top 100 players in 2019, not necessarily results. Hbox's success definitely swayed some players' opinions, but to my knowledge, only Armada and Leffen were very vocal about Puff possibly being #1.
Mewtwo is a very unintuitive character to play in comparison to the rest of the cast. For example, Zain is great at Roy and n0ne is great at Ganon because they are just transferring skills they already have. No top character is similar to Mewtwo, so nobody happens to have skills that adequately translate to Mewtwo. Also, no top player would bother to optimize Mewtwo to the same extent of the top tiers. So if any good player tries Mewtwo briefly, their opinion of him will likely be bad, even if he could theoretically be much better. This isn't to say Mewtwo deserves C+ tier. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say where exactly Mewtwo belongs on the tier list. But it is to say that the community's placement of Mewtwo is most likely lower than it should be. So I think it's very reasonable to look at a community tier list, see Mewtwo's placement, and predict that it should be higher than that.
@@MINISWISS1 No, Zain's feats don't show that *Roy* is good. They show that *every* lower tier character is decent and not trash, as long as somebody is highly skilled with that character. A long time ago Mang0 showed the same thing with Mario, n0ne shows it with Ganon, Plup shows it with Samus, and Axe shows it with Pikachu. If you watch the sets where Zain wins with Roy against a good opponent, almost always they are playing a fast faller (good for Roy's combo game) and are not platform camping (Roy's aerials lead to nothing). In the rare case that someone actually plays the matchup properly, Zain has so much trouble despite being the best player in the world.
Bowser is better than Kirby, why does everyone think that bowser is worse? Kirby is weak and has no damage output. Bowser has both. Movement and recovery is about the same. Kirby's covers more distance but is more exploitable. Kirby has a way better combo game, admitting that. Bowser is better at edgeguarding. Not by too much, but better. Kirby dies WAYYYYY easier than Bowser. Bowser is the heaviest character in the game and Kirby is one of the lightest. Let me know what you think.
Not saying Bowser is worse or better, but there are lots of other important things. Bowser has worse frame data. His jump squat is about 8 frames (not 100% certain) which makes wavedashing, aerials, and jumping out of shield far worse options than any other character. For example, if Bowser and Sheik were standing next to each other, Sheik can jump and hit Bowser with nair before Bowser can even get off the ground. Also his moves are slower which make it harder for him to escape pressure or counter hit. His moves are laggier afterwards, which makes it basically impossible for him to pressure shields effectively. Bowser is larger, which makes comboing and edge guarding and winning neutral against him easier as you don't have to be as precise. Bowser is heavier, which makes combos easier. You could argue this is fine since he can tank more damage, but this isn't always the case. Bowser can often be combo'd into an edge guard, where he'll just die. Against Kirby, your combos end much earlier so it's less likely you can have a combo lead into the exact position you want.
Bowser is by far the worst character in the game in my opinion, to the point where he loses against every other character. I have two big reasons why: his two main draws, his KO power and high endurance are completely misleading. Bowser’s strongest KO options are impossible to land in a serious match. They not only have absurd amounts of lag, but they have terrible hitbox placements (you pretty much have to be touching the opponent to land forward smash). His only real reliable move to KO is Whirling Fortress because it doesn’t have these issues. The rest of his options certainly have the knockback and damage, but their range and speed are so terrible that you can only land them with hard reads. Comboing into these moves are also a pipe dream. Bowser is the heaviest character and is a fast faller, which should give him high endurance. However, because of him being so big, so slow, and having absolutely no combo breakers outside of Whirling Fortress (which is also EXTREMELY predictable), he can literally be comboed for so long and so frequently that he’d instantly be at percentages where one hit will kill him. And this isn’t against just the top tiers, this is against pretty much every character in the game. And if these combos happen to drag him offstage, he has no chance to recover, as Whirling Fortress has no vertical distance (similar to DK). It’s literally to the point where Falco can land a down air on Bowser close to 0% and Bowser would STILL die. Kirby definitely sucks, but he does have some good moves in his tilts, back air, up air, down throw, and down smash. His edgeguards are also much safer; although his recovery is very slow like Bowser’s, the multiple jumps allow him to edgeguard further and possibly recover from failed attempts. If Bowser messes up an edgeguard attempt, he’s almost guaranteed to lose a stock because of his abysmal recovery. His KO moves are weak, but if you ask me, they’re easier to land than Bowser’s. Also, his endurance, although terrible, might actually be better than Bowser’s because of a lack of reliable combos that could be performed on him. Melee Bowser is as bad as Brawl Ganon in my opinion, he literally loses against every other character. He’s fun to play as, for sure, but from how the meta has evolved, he’s unplayable in tournament settings at this point unless the opponent knows nothing about the matchup.
Don’t think puff is 3rd but has game breaking potential? In MTG we call this broken and say git over it git gud...you’re playing a human behind that broken mechanic and humans are who we are playing here. Soooo is this a tier list about in game perfect tas potential or real life? Cuz it seems to go back and forth, inherently the strangeness of tier lists imo. Dated system....let’s just use data in events like every other game?
Cody gave his reason for why he said this. He said that if Puff actually became game breaking under the current ruleset, he believes the Melee community would change the ruleset to prevent this.
@@someguyonanipad I guess I’m missing something, is this implying that; if on average, good puff mains, who genuinely master consistently abusing their camping potential, will be capable of being so abusive of the current rule set that the community as a whole will change the rule set ala wobbling or else be so oppressive the game will become stale and unattractive to a majority of players? Because if that is the case I still stand by my original point but then again maybe I don’t understand the full potential of mass abuse this could actually be like in every game even with patches there are just bad matchups and bad mechanics and like spacies and their tech potential and frame data comparatively would be considered just as absurd given what this implies game-changing to be. Idk I get wrecked by any matchup though so like..lol git gud me too obv.
Yes, I believe that is what Cody meant. If a degenerate tactic like running away and stalling became the dominant play style for a character already as good as Puff, the community would try to prevent it through ruleset changes. If you've ever seen Michael vs Bananas or Chango vs Fauxhebro, imagine that but at every top 8. You have a good point with "what counts as game breaking". Most melee players have an idea of how the game should be played, and our ruleset reflects this. For example, no items, simple + small + flat stages, 1v1 or 2v2, 4 stocks, etc. Changing any of these would result in vastly different gameplay that rewards a totally different set of skills that we do not value as a community. Game breaking techniques like wavedashing are allowed because their existence does not diminish the skills and gameplay we value in the game. Stalling is not valued. It currently is not often used in a game breaking way, but it doesn't have to be game breaking to decide it has to go. If you're losing and you try to run out the clock, you'll get booed anyway because that is degenerate gameplay. If various people did that at every top 8, it would be banned regardless of whether or not the stallers are winning.
@@someguyonanipad hey that’s helpful info thank you for clarifying. Is the reward for stalling in such a way the match being a draw and that’s the issue / reward for the staller?
Stalling is good if you're winning, since in the event of a timeout, the person leading in stocks (or if it's a tie, then percent) wins. In theory you could accumulate any lead and begin stalling, which is method of winning the game that we don't value. Stalling while losing is theoretically a bad strategy, but in some situations or against certain people you can gain a psychological advantage regardless of who is winning. For example, the opponent may become frustrated or lose concentration. But the point is not that stalling is effective, but rather that stalling is degenerate and would likely get banned if it ever became too common.
That's not true. That makes it a losing match up at low level, but a more optimized player would just not do the things that lose. That doesn't make it a winning matchup, but it just means the top-level discussion begins with the assumption that you're not breaking rules. For example, avoid grabbing puff as sheik. But can you win without grab? Maybe do spaced bairs and needle camp on platforms. That's where the matchup discussion begins.
I agree that people do shit like "fox has shine" "marth has sword," but they do still rank jigglypuff high cause of her excellent results over the years. Same with marth, I think it would be ridiculous to put marth as lower than 2 because he's been the rep of the #1 spot for like half of melee's history
sheik doesn't do "fine" against puff she always be disadvantaged against puff because puff can punish sheiks recovery easilly, and can cc rest all of sheiks grounded moves and grabs
"puff doesn't do fine against sheik she always be disadvantaged against sheik because sheik can run away and needle camp easily, and can beat all of puff's moves with a bigger back air" Regardless of who wins the match up, your argument is solely based on puff's advantages which can easily be countered by mentioning sheik's advantages.
“Fox has shine. Marth has sword.” No truer words have ever been said.
f a x
m a r f
@@LemmyCetay EEE YAAAAAH
@@OGKidMelee LET'S DANCE
@@LemmyCetay SOKU DA
It's so refreshing to finally have an updated list that better represents where the competitive player base is now compared to 2015. Of course there's still tweaks to be made, but that comes naturally with the growth of the game.
It’s just nice so that my friends who don’t know that much about smash don’t think that fox is way better than everyone else
Falcon below Icies lmaooooo
You have to understand that these are meta calls. When that tier list was made around 2015 Chu Dat was placing well consistently and Wobbles was still thought to be a contender, while falcons where really struggling to even place top 8. In contrast now Wizzy, None, and Johnny are heavy contenders and Icies players basically fell off before wobbling was even banned.
@@IceDemonTouya2 People totally forget that Chu had top 5 kind of results in the first half of 2016, and it seemed like, back then, about every other tourney an icies that no one had ever heard of would randomly end up in top 8.
I don't know man, I don't think ICs have ever been played at their skill ceiling by anyone who has ever played them. Fly and Wobbles pushed the character(s?) farther than anyone else ever did, and even between the two of them there was stuff they each did that the other didn't. Genuinely, if those two did the fusion dance, I think ICs would be a non-contentious Top 5 pick (with or without wobbling).
Kirby at F tier is mad disrespectful to Capt. Pretzel
At least d
At least he's no longer considered the worst in the game.
Golly gee a panda global tierlist I never would have guessed it
i'll golly gee you!
Match up charts are better. Wish more people did match up charts.
Thanks for adding the arrow in the thumbnail so I could find the tier list :)
well it's pointing specifically at Yoshi
@@myilmazalper well then glad the arrow shows me where yoshi is at on the tier list :)
@@JesterJones nice, so it helped out after all :)
@@myilmazalper I also lost my wife and children from a drunk driver's hit and run accident in 1996, while this thumbnail didn't help me find them, it helped me find peace
So Cody thinks Fox, Falco, Marth, Puff, and Sheik should be in S tier, S tier should be unordered, and also Puff should most probably be last in that tier. So should there be an S+ and S- tier, Puff is the only one in S-, and S+ be unordered?
it's insane how reasonable and analytical Cody is in breaking down match-up spreads, without complaining or unnecessary result biases
I think in a tournament setting that Puff kind of gets bonus points for forcing other characters to play by very specific rules. It's a weird thing, because it theoretically means she's a clear fifth place, but in practice could be like third.
Who else besides hbox gets top8? If hbox didn’t play then puff wouldn’t be in the top tier
I could be wrong about this, but I feel like people overate matchup inexperience somewhat. Idk I think at some point we gotta acknowledge that the character does well in a particular matchup rather than x player doesn't know how to play vs x character and lost cuz of it
Matchup XP is hella real tho. Just look at the players Amsa loses to in Japan the weeks after he comes to the US and beats Hbox and Zain
@@Eval999 When did Amsa beat Zain?
@@tylercasea lol honestly accidentally picked one of the few players amsa has only played a few times. he did beat him hella long ago though thats obviously not relevant
@@Eval999 to be fair, I don't think Japan has many puffs either. Amsa is still by far the best in Japan anyway right? On top of that aren't most of his losses to fox anyway? Not that much different when he comes here
What is the point of tier lists of it just changes with the best players? What is it really saying? What does it truly indicate? As someone who has only recently gotten into this stuff, tier lists more than anything befuddles me... it just seems like they just look at the top players change the list with that. Not 8 months ago or so people were saying puff was easily number 1 because of Hbox, now puff is #3 at best? The top 20 is almost all foxes, and one Marth, and Marth is number one simply because of one amazing player who’s the best? What about all the other Marths failing? What’s going on? What is the point? It doesn’t make any sense to me at all, im sorry but the tier-list to me says almost absolutely nothing. We could accomplish the same thing by simply looking at the player rankings year to year.
it's an indication of of people's perception of the meta
@@aprfinancing481 And thats an information ill never understand the usefulness off.
Results always speak louder than some dude's opinion
The purpose for most people who make a tier list is to combine the current results with the potential of each character. Looking only at results is a really good way to gauge the viability of each character, but it has flaws, just as judging only by potential has its own flaws. For example, Cody puts Sheik higher than most people because he believes in the untapped potential Sheik has against Fox and Puff. If you agree with him and he ends up being right, then that's a great insight to inform your character pick. Or maybe you disagree and prefer to look at Sheik's tournament results only, which show that she's probably not as good as Cody says.
Both are fine choices, but if not for the existence of tier lists I may not have encountered many top players' opinions on a bunch of things, which are valuable.
If Mang0 and Hbox didn't exist, no one would be saying that puff is #1.
Yeah obviously, because nobody would be aware of her potential. If Ken + M2K + PPMD + Zain didn't exist, no one would have Marth that high either.
I think people are severely underrating Falcon. I've only seen the character get better over time, especially after None's introduction to the scene. Division 1 of SCL has 3 Falcons, and S2J has already started off the year with the Galint win.
Re: Characters breaking the game -- is this assuming wobbling and the freeze glitch remain banned?
Falco 4th is such a meme,is this 2018?
Hbox was #1 for 3 years with Puff and this only changed last year so Puff>Falco makes sense, especially since Puff is so underdeveloped. Falco has way more representation so he’s way more developed.
@@kevinmcdanal2395 if we are going purely by results why not just do it like armada and put puff on first already? After all puff has won more majors than the other top 3 solo combined since 2017.
@@WM-xv1el I think the point is that this tier list was made by a collection of surveys from many of the top 100 players in 2019, not necessarily results. Hbox's success definitely swayed some players' opinions, but to my knowledge, only Armada and Leffen were very vocal about Puff possibly being #1.
I mean he probably loses to fox sheik and marth but okay
wait what is pivot techchasing with sheik
It covers ambiguous DI at early percents so that you can react better
Dash back pivot grab to get ambiguous di
Glad someone else agrees that puff is either best in the game off of optimal/sadistic stalling cheese or 5th/6th best with no in between
I member planking hbox, I member
Falcos definitely top 3 wtf
At least
@@jsweeney7359 I’m with you here, he’s the only character with a projectile like his, busted down air, shine, side-B cheese, Up-B strength, and more
@@nicememe8608 bro, that makes him good. Not busted
@@lapplandkun9273 cool story "bro"
always love hearing sheik believers
Interested to hear more about why he thinks mewtwo should be placed near or above C+ tier. Seems like a stretch to me
Mewtwo is a very unintuitive character to play in comparison to the rest of the cast. For example, Zain is great at Roy and n0ne is great at Ganon because they are just transferring skills they already have. No top character is similar to Mewtwo, so nobody happens to have skills that adequately translate to Mewtwo. Also, no top player would bother to optimize Mewtwo to the same extent of the top tiers. So if any good player tries Mewtwo briefly, their opinion of him will likely be bad, even if he could theoretically be much better.
This isn't to say Mewtwo deserves C+ tier. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say where exactly Mewtwo belongs on the tier list.
But it is to say that the community's placement of Mewtwo is most likely lower than it should be. So I think it's very reasonable to look at a community tier list, see Mewtwo's placement, and predict that it should be higher than that.
@@someguyonanipad I believe Leffen beat professor pro with Mewtwo though.
@@shorthopdoublelasers4168 leffen's mewtwo is shnasty
If anything imo I think Roy should be higher thanks to zain
@@MINISWISS1 No, Zain's feats don't show that *Roy* is good. They show that *every* lower tier character is decent and not trash, as long as somebody is highly skilled with that character. A long time ago Mang0 showed the same thing with Mario, n0ne shows it with Ganon, Plup shows it with Samus, and Axe shows it with Pikachu.
If you watch the sets where Zain wins with Roy against a good opponent, almost always they are playing a fast faller (good for Roy's combo game) and are not platform camping (Roy's aerials lead to nothing). In the rare case that someone actually plays the matchup properly, Zain has so much trouble despite being the best player in the world.
puff isn't the third best character in the game but this tier list also isn't current which doesn't make sense
I was under the impression that cody neglected to change the colors of the tier list because he thought he was above that
Bowser is better than Kirby, why does everyone think that bowser is worse?
Kirby is weak and has no damage output. Bowser has both.
Movement and recovery is about the same. Kirby's covers more distance but is more exploitable.
Kirby has a way better combo game, admitting that.
Bowser is better at edgeguarding. Not by too much, but better.
Kirby dies WAYYYYY easier than Bowser. Bowser is the heaviest character in the game and Kirby is one of the lightest.
Let me know what you think.
Not saying Bowser is worse or better, but there are lots of other important things.
Bowser has worse frame data. His jump squat is about 8 frames (not 100% certain) which makes wavedashing, aerials, and jumping out of shield far worse options than any other character. For example, if Bowser and Sheik were standing next to each other, Sheik can jump and hit Bowser with nair before Bowser can even get off the ground. Also his moves are slower which make it harder for him to escape pressure or counter hit. His moves are laggier afterwards, which makes it basically impossible for him to pressure shields effectively.
Bowser is larger, which makes comboing and edge guarding and winning neutral against him easier as you don't have to be as precise.
Bowser is heavier, which makes combos easier. You could argue this is fine since he can tank more damage, but this isn't always the case. Bowser can often be combo'd into an edge guard, where he'll just die. Against Kirby, your combos end much earlier so it's less likely you can have a combo lead into the exact position you want.
At the end of the day, they are both garbage characters that no one will play seriously.
@@shorthopdoublelasers4168 Gimpy fish, Warrior knight, DJ Nintendo, Captain pretzel, and triple r mean nothing?
@@someguyonanipad all true, won't lie
Bowser is by far the worst character in the game in my opinion, to the point where he loses against every other character. I have two big reasons why: his two main draws, his KO power and high endurance are completely misleading.
Bowser’s strongest KO options are impossible to land in a serious match. They not only have absurd amounts of lag, but they have terrible hitbox placements (you pretty much have to be touching the opponent to land forward smash). His only real reliable move to KO is Whirling Fortress because it doesn’t have these issues. The rest of his options certainly have the knockback and damage, but their range and speed are so terrible that you can only land them with hard reads. Comboing into these moves are also a pipe dream.
Bowser is the heaviest character and is a fast faller, which should give him high endurance. However, because of him being so big, so slow, and having absolutely no combo breakers outside of Whirling Fortress (which is also EXTREMELY predictable), he can literally be comboed for so long and so frequently that he’d instantly be at percentages where one hit will kill him. And this isn’t against just the top tiers, this is against pretty much every character in the game. And if these combos happen to drag him offstage, he has no chance to recover, as Whirling Fortress has no vertical distance (similar to DK). It’s literally to the point where Falco can land a down air on Bowser close to 0% and Bowser would STILL die.
Kirby definitely sucks, but he does have some good moves in his tilts, back air, up air, down throw, and down smash. His edgeguards are also much safer; although his recovery is very slow like Bowser’s, the multiple jumps allow him to edgeguard further and possibly recover from failed attempts. If Bowser messes up an edgeguard attempt, he’s almost guaranteed to lose a stock because of his abysmal recovery. His KO moves are weak, but if you ask me, they’re easier to land than Bowser’s. Also, his endurance, although terrible, might actually be better than Bowser’s because of a lack of reliable combos that could be performed on him.
Melee Bowser is as bad as Brawl Ganon in my opinion, he literally loses against every other character. He’s fun to play as, for sure, but from how the meta has evolved, he’s unplayable in tournament settings at this point unless the opponent knows nothing about the matchup.
14:55 LOL
Marth 1, Fox 2, Falco 3, Sheik 4, Puff 5, Falcon 6
This order doesn't seem bad at all.
Marth also has the second best frame data overall (behind spacies) despite his range
only talked about the top tiers :(
The back room is irrelevant
Cody is stuck in the present
Don’t think puff is 3rd but has game breaking potential? In MTG we call this broken and say git over it git gud...you’re playing a human behind that broken mechanic and humans are who we are playing here. Soooo is this a tier list about in game perfect tas potential or real life? Cuz it seems to go back and forth, inherently the strangeness of tier lists imo. Dated system....let’s just use data in events like every other game?
Cody gave his reason for why he said this. He said that if Puff actually became game breaking under the current ruleset, he believes the Melee community would change the ruleset to prevent this.
@@someguyonanipad I guess I’m missing something, is this implying that; if on average, good puff mains, who genuinely master consistently abusing their camping potential, will be capable of being so abusive of the current rule set that the community as a whole will change the rule set ala wobbling or else be so oppressive the game will become stale and unattractive to a majority of players?
Because if that is the case I still stand by my original point but then again maybe I don’t understand the full potential of mass abuse this could actually be like in every game even with patches there are just bad matchups and bad mechanics and like spacies and their tech potential and frame data comparatively would be considered just as absurd given what this implies game-changing to be. Idk I get wrecked by any matchup though so like..lol git gud me too obv.
Yes, I believe that is what Cody meant. If a degenerate tactic like running away and stalling became the dominant play style for a character already as good as Puff, the community would try to prevent it through ruleset changes. If you've ever seen Michael vs Bananas or Chango vs Fauxhebro, imagine that but at every top 8.
You have a good point with "what counts as game breaking". Most melee players have an idea of how the game should be played, and our ruleset reflects this. For example, no items, simple + small + flat stages, 1v1 or 2v2, 4 stocks, etc. Changing any of these would result in vastly different gameplay that rewards a totally different set of skills that we do not value as a community.
Game breaking techniques like wavedashing are allowed because their existence does not diminish the skills and gameplay we value in the game. Stalling is not valued. It currently is not often used in a game breaking way, but it doesn't have to be game breaking to decide it has to go. If you're losing and you try to run out the clock, you'll get booed anyway because that is degenerate gameplay. If various people did that at every top 8, it would be banned regardless of whether or not the stallers are winning.
@@someguyonanipad hey that’s helpful info thank you for clarifying. Is the reward for stalling in such a way the match being a draw and that’s the issue / reward for the staller?
Stalling is good if you're winning, since in the event of a timeout, the person leading in stocks (or if it's a tie, then percent) wins. In theory you could accumulate any lead and begin stalling, which is method of winning the game that we don't value.
Stalling while losing is theoretically a bad strategy, but in some situations or against certain people you can gain a psychological advantage regardless of who is winning. For example, the opponent may become frustrated or lose concentration.
But the point is not that stalling is effective, but rather that stalling is degenerate and would likely get banned if it ever became too common.
A match up where their are a lot of rules and if you break any of them you lose sounds like the definition of a losing matchup to me.
That's not true. That makes it a losing match up at low level, but a more optimized player would just not do the things that lose. That doesn't make it a winning matchup, but it just means the top-level discussion begins with the assumption that you're not breaking rules.
For example, avoid grabbing puff as sheik. But can you win without grab? Maybe do spaced bairs and needle camp on platforms. That's where the matchup discussion begins.
@@someguyonanipad I see your point, that makes a lot of sense.
7:01 fox mains in a nutshell
lol
I agree with my streamer.
14:54 LMAO
I agree that people do shit like "fox has shine" "marth has sword," but they do still rank jigglypuff high cause of her excellent results over the years. Same with marth, I think it would be ridiculous to put marth as lower than 2 because he's been the rep of the #1 spot for like half of melee's history
falco number 2 :)
You forgot "Falco has gun".
resting with puff overrated lacking
Bruh you are over reacting about puff way too much
sheik doesn't do "fine" against puff she always be disadvantaged against puff because puff can punish sheiks recovery easilly, and can cc rest all of sheiks grounded moves and grabs
"puff doesn't do fine against sheik she always be disadvantaged against sheik because sheik can run away and needle camp easily, and can beat all of puff's moves with a bigger back air"
Regardless of who wins the match up, your argument is solely based on puff's advantages which can easily be countered by mentioning sheik's advantages.
Netrual: Sheik
Edgaurding: Puff
Punish: Puff
Conclusion puff beats shiek (Like 55-45)
lmao
sheiks just don’t know how to play the game without grab
@@DrizzyRhyme2 Thats dumb.
No character can function even half decently without grab
Day 3 of telling Cody he is a copelet