Yoshi has a lot of tools that no other character in the game has. Even before AMSa, Yoshi had some fringe use. I think it’s time we bite the bullet and say he’s on par with Peach and Falcon in the meta.
@@yawbyss981yeah he was only considered low because he lacked some conventional strength, his mobility being restricted to platforms and he just doesn't have top tier hitboxes. However he is strong but contrarily to other hight and top tier he doesn't dominate the lower tier as he is not better in every way contrarily to other top tier, he just does have different strength.
More people need to be placing with Yoshi before he becomes a top tier. Axe has been beasting with Pikachu for years, and he's never been in the top tier conversation. Right now it's JUST Amsa.
Ya know, everyone credits Hbox with making puff a top tier, but Mang0 originally mained puff too, even winning the ditto with Hbox, and switching to Fox...not because Fox was better, but because he thought Puff was too cheap and gimmicky and wanted to be considered a serious player.
@nahor88 Egg$ is another top 100 Yoshi but yeah it's not a lot with 2 Yoshi's in the top 100. Even with Pikachu aside from Axe there's also Ralph and Swift who are ranked.
Ice climbers or especially Yoshi wouldn’t take Peach’s spot - she’s one of the worst matchups for both of them and she counters fox/falco better than both of them. Peach has pretty doable matchups in the top tier with the exception of puff, and everyone just dogpiled on her from there. Though like you said, there have been innovations in that matchup as of recent and it seems after falling from grace she’s building herself back up. Peach fought for every last bit of her recognition in melee and she’s given the hardest time out of any top tier and always has been. Peach is more than Armada, and she’s more than meets the eye
idk i feel like ics have a super high ceiling. They can get so far with fundies plus add mastering handoffs and nobbles or whatever insane tech they have
Even if people think Melee is an unbalanced fighting game, and it's true with only 1/3 of the cast being generally seen as "viable", the game is just so deep itself and there's always movers and shakers in the tier list in a meta that's been developing and continues to develop since 2001. Melee is sick.
Melee could be more sick with a balance update. When I say "balance", I mean buff the worse characters, not make the top tiers worse. That's basically what P+ did; it's just too bad it'll never get any traction cuz of Nintendo. Look at what Aklo has done with Link; he's beaten some top Marth players, but there's still the fact he has some crippling weaknesses that could be helped with a balance patch. Make his jump squat faster, reduce the lag on some of his moves and grab. That could help in his viability against other top tiers, to where maybe Aklo wouldn't have to use him pretty much exclusively as a Marth counter on FD.
Ice Climbers will never be top tier as long as Peach and Puff exist. Those two characters invalidated them even before wobbling was banned and are even more troublesome now.
Listening to this at work, hearing the SEGA GT 2002 menu music made me stop dead in my tracks in disbelief of what I was hearing. Fantastic choice for BGM, keep the wonderful content coming :)
2:40 I dont feel like peach has a “terrible” wd, it is the shortest in the game obviously but because she is so slow her wd is very useful for her, as although it is short its fast so it makes up for her lack of speed elsewhere.
I think it’s interesting how the perception of falcon changed as we got more familiar with the game and its mechanics. Better controllers, UCF, and general tech (sdi, dashback, etc) really saved him lol
2nd heaviest only when its horizontal knockback. Vertical knockback will send peach much farther than any fast faller. It's weird that's what determines your knockback vertically but that's just how it works and it affects matchups a lot more than the characters actual weight.
3:35 peach is NOT lightweight lol she is the heaviest top tier, behind falcon iirc. Also doesnt floatyness make it harder to combo? shes slow and low friction which is good for combos but being floaty makes it easy to escape.
I was always fascinating by Jigglypuff in this game, as she wouldn't be as dominant as she is in Melee in the other Smash games. Jigglypuff definitely came in handy for Event 51 for me lol.
In terms of balance for top tiers, this and 64 are the most balanced. I think almost half the roster has somewhat of a chance against Fox. Side note: I play competitive Ultimate but not at a high level so Ultimate could also be extremely balanced with its top tiers but that's not what I have seen or experienced (and I play Cloud).
Hey maybe you should make the entire history of yoshi in the entire smash brother series after we get the 14th melee tier list because amsa has shown us that melee yoshi is actually capable of winnings tournament if you put enough time into it
Yoshi is 100% a top tier at this point for me, Amsa winning Big House and just getting 2nd at Genesis this year with a meta that's still being developed by a lot.
Roy shouldn't be a D tier character honestly, but, well he is just under-developed, and, word of mouth of "he is worse Marth" just makes people not even bother.
We need more people like amsa, that plays and improves with the character they like, in the process redefines the meta. I'm tired of tryhards jerking of to fox, he doesn't deserve it.
Too good. This is why I'm one of the few who is NOT a fan of Melee's competitive scene. Hopefully Junebug can pull an aMSa but that may be wishful thinking......
i know the last melee tier list had puff at #3, but in 2024 can't we just agree that Falco, Sheik, and Captain Falcon are better characters? There's a decent argument for Yoshi over Puff too...
@@prophetedubaroque5136Yoshi loses to Fox and Sheik, Puff loses to Fox Marth and Falcon. Considering aMSa has been giving Zain and Wizzy a lot of trouble, I don't think it's clear that Puff has better match-ups at all.
It's really more of an argument of aMSa being better than Hbox overall and Hbox being on the decline in general... Does Jigglypuff lose to Fox, Marth and Falcon? Or does Hbox lose to Cody(and others, while still beating many top foxes), Zain, and Wizzrobe (while beating other Marths, and probably a better winrate on other Falcons but would need to double check) more often? If she does lose any of those match-ups it would be a 45-55 margain at best. I think Jigglypuff is fine where she is, especially given things like RTC rest that hasn't been optimized and it's simply that the top representative of the character has been underpreforming lately in my opinion. I have no issue raising Yoshi, but not that high. That tends to be the issue with accurately ranking characters with low representation.
@@Kade503yeah we dont really know,but at the top level it seems like the yoshi-puff match up is significantly slanted to yoshi's side, if they know how to play around rest, like aMSa does. But Puff as 3rd is definitely too high. The results from the past couple years have shown conclusive that Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik are all higher place than puff. So the max that it's fair to rank puff in 2024 is 5th, but even then I think it's hard to argue that Captain Falcon doesn't have better top tier matchups. Falcon certainly beats Puff anyway, so Puff is more likely to be sixth. Puff might have fallen slightly, but it's more a case of other characters rising. Also Hbox thinks Yoshi > Puff, so I don't think Hbox is necessarily the best argument for Puff > Yoshi lol.
Man this is a topic that’s been covered to death and it’s kinda hard to hearing a very naive opinion on the state of contemporary melee melee game. Production quality is a insane but please just get your script revised 😊
I mean, Zain is insane that's a fact. However marth is very very good. His range, combo mobility, frame data... he may not have one absolutely stupid tool like shine or rest, however every single of jis base stat is crazy. Also what marthitis is bad but it's really one of his only weakness. And finally he is pretty consistent as he is fairly "easy" compare to other top tier at high level (I know he as hard stuff like important pivot but compare to some other characters I see him as average difficult)
@@prophetedubaroque5136 To back zain's skill even harder, while marth is very very good.. he's not remotely #2 good. In a vacuum everyone has strengths like I could say Zelda can kill early and has a good recovery for getting back to stage and blah blah but in an actual "comparative" standard.. marth's moves/options "compared" to the other top tiers is quite lacking. Zain is most definitely just that cracked to make up the difference just like Amsa is with Yoshi or Armada was back in his time with peach. None of them are even close to #2 levels of good "character" wise but each could look it if you only knew these people. Not that marth isn't outright better than Yoshi or peach.
@@zaelleaz5644I personally don't see marth below top tier among high tiers like sheik... I do see him not being number Two and be actually a bit below. Everything about him is just incredibly solid.
@@prophetedubaroque5136 Marth is a solid top tier no matter how you slice it. Far too good to be high tier and ought always be thought of as a top tier.... however.. he certainly doesn't have "everything" about him being incredibly solid even in a vacuum.. in comparisons to other top tiers it's worse. Dude's recovery is absolute garbage (like shiek's and such), out of shield he's worse than even high tiers let alone all the top tiers, his moves (not self) is extremely slow "comparatively" to all the top tiers (look at direct framedata if needed) and so on. But.. again.. everyone has weaknesses and strengths people can list out but at the end of the day, agreed, marth aint close to #2 and zain is just a monster.
@@zaelleaz5644I mean he does have bad out of shied and his framedata his slightly worse (though not incredibly worse considering we're talking one or two frame on half his moves and when you think about his range.) but bad recovery? I mean yeah there are ways to abuse it but if you consider it bad I don't see who you would consider good. Most top tiers have some way to abuse their recoveries after all with the truly good recoveries in the whole game being like mewtwo and pikachu I guess.
@@ZachHonest i feel the same, he's good here and i dont think he can go top t iers but i think he can go up in the tier list like (with yoshi) above icies
FOX in Melee is crazy good, like just kit alone he invalidates all but 3 characters in a roster of 26. And below those 3 there is no shot at winning againsta practiced FOX. FOX may be even more polarizing and metadefining than MK was in brawl and that is saying something. FOX is Melee.
@@HeDronHeDronHedron Marth, Falco and Sheik and that is a maybe... Although yes other characters have won, still a practiced FOX that knows the matchup will steamroll all the other characters I did not mention. Also speaking of MK, yes it was obvious that MK was the best character in brawl, it took time for Melee because in Melee you are more prone to make mistakes, tech wise, hey players are human. In Brawl the game was much slower and the mechanics were a little bit more set on, while Melee has all these movement and nuance, however, and going back to my point, FOX is still the best at all what the engine of Melee gives. Gimping, Killpower, Damage Output, Anticrouch cancel, recovery, recovery mixup, you name it.... similar to MK. Yes MK was more obvious the number 1 and he was the META.... guess who is the META on Melee. Again FOX is MELEE, and MELEE is FOX.
It wasn't that long ago that it seemed like Marth(Zain) could invalidate Fox, and still can against most Foxes on FD. I don't even know what you're talking about as far as "having the best recovery/recovery mixups" and plenty of other things you've listed that are just not true or debatable. Fox is the most commonly played at top level and yet it isn't just Fox and whatever three you're talking about placing high and taking tournaments... He is definitely not more polarizing than MK in Brawl, Bayo in 4, or Steve in Ultimate, which is a good thing and part of why the Melee competitive scene has been the most popular for the longest.
Marth has piccolo arms
Marth just learned the forbidden secret of leaning forward when he grabs.
He is Magneto's offspring
Facts
It's funny how his actual grab hitbox isn't very large. He just leans insanely far forward. Same for why his f-smash reaches so far.
He needs to give them back😡
Yoshi can definitely become a top tier if aMSa keeps up his latest results. He's become to Yoshi what Hbox was to Puff.
Yoshi has a lot of tools that no other character in the game has. Even before AMSa, Yoshi had some fringe use. I think it’s time we bite the bullet and say he’s on par with Peach and Falcon in the meta.
@@yawbyss981yeah he was only considered low because he lacked some conventional strength, his mobility being restricted to platforms and he just doesn't have top tier hitboxes. However he is strong but contrarily to other hight and top tier he doesn't dominate the lower tier as he is not better in every way contrarily to other top tier, he just does have different strength.
More people need to be placing with Yoshi before he becomes a top tier. Axe has been beasting with Pikachu for years, and he's never been in the top tier conversation.
Right now it's JUST Amsa.
Ya know, everyone credits Hbox with making puff a top tier, but Mang0 originally mained puff too, even winning the ditto with Hbox, and switching to Fox...not because Fox was better, but because he thought Puff was too cheap and gimmicky and wanted to be considered a serious player.
@nahor88 Egg$ is another top 100 Yoshi but yeah it's not a lot with 2 Yoshi's in the top 100. Even with Pikachu aside from Axe there's also Ralph and Swift who are ranked.
Ice climbers or especially Yoshi wouldn’t take Peach’s spot - she’s one of the worst matchups for both of them and she counters fox/falco better than both of them.
Peach has pretty doable matchups in the top tier with the exception of puff, and everyone just dogpiled on her from there. Though like you said, there have been innovations in that matchup as of recent and it seems after falling from grace she’s building herself back up.
Peach fought for every last bit of her recognition in melee and she’s given the hardest time out of any top tier and always has been. Peach is more than Armada, and she’s more than meets the eye
idk i feel like ics have a super high ceiling. They can get so far with fundies plus add mastering handoffs and nobbles or whatever insane tech they have
Whenever I see Fox and Samus, I think of Leffen hating on Samus as that's probably the only character he struggles against.
Leffen hates fighting DK too. Switched once towards his pocket Sheik to fight a major DK after taking some Ls.
@@soulrebellion Yup. The Infamous Ringler match. Ringler had him beat SO MANY TIMES.
name the last time leffen lost to samus
Honestly if he didn't whine so much we would've forgotten by now @MagikMKW
Luck feffen?
Fun fact: The Marth grab works on Yoshi because his nose hurtbox is so big.
Even if people think Melee is an unbalanced fighting game, and it's true with only 1/3 of the cast being generally seen as "viable", the game is just so deep itself and there's always movers and shakers in the tier list in a meta that's been developing and continues to develop since 2001. Melee is sick.
Melee could be more sick with a balance update. When I say "balance", I mean buff the worse characters, not make the top tiers worse. That's basically what P+ did; it's just too bad it'll never get any traction cuz of Nintendo.
Look at what Aklo has done with Link; he's beaten some top Marth players, but there's still the fact he has some crippling weaknesses that could be helped with a balance patch. Make his jump squat faster, reduce the lag on some of his moves and grab. That could help in his viability against other top tiers, to where maybe Aklo wouldn't have to use him pretty much exclusively as a Marth counter on FD.
11:51 top tier script, that joke made me laugh way harder than I expected lol
Man I love hearing random Sega GT 2002 OST in videos. That game's music is just vibe and I'm glad the game still gets acknowledged.
Yo i been watching your videos for a few months now i love the content keep it up bro you’ll have your moment sooner then later
Appreciate it
Ice Climbers will never be top tier as long as Peach and Puff exist. Those two characters invalidated them even before wobbling was banned and are even more troublesome now.
I genuinely love this channel, and how it feels like a more personal look into the aspects someone who doesnt play as much might not know
looking cute bro keep it up
Listening to this at work, hearing the SEGA GT 2002 menu music made me stop dead in my tracks in disbelief of what I was hearing. Fantastic choice for BGM, keep the wonderful content coming :)
Marth was an Arms character before Arms came out.
Reject top tier, embrace WAHHHOOOOOO
2:40 I dont feel like peach has a “terrible” wd, it is the shortest in the game obviously but because she is so slow her wd is very useful for her, as although it is short its fast so it makes up for her lack of speed elsewhere.
Marth Vader, as we called him. A demon that uses the force to chaingrab you.
I think it’s interesting how the perception of falcon changed as we got more familiar with the game and its mechanics. Better controllers, UCF, and general tech (sdi, dashback, etc) really saved him lol
Tank the jank is a light weight
Peach is not light weight she's tied for second heaviest character on your list with Sheik.
You right I think I was trying to say how she can die early at times despite her weight. She's not a lightweight tho
2nd heaviest only when its horizontal knockback. Vertical knockback will send peach much farther than any fast faller. It's weird that's what determines your knockback vertically but that's just how it works and it affects matchups a lot more than the characters actual weight.
@@ZachHonestFall speed is a big contributor to deaths off the top.
3:35 peach is NOT lightweight lol she is the heaviest top tier, behind falcon iirc.
Also doesnt floatyness make it harder to combo? shes slow and low friction which is good for combos but being floaty makes it easy to escape.
How does Samus beat Fox when Fox can literally just reflect her projectiles?
She can combo into it or use it off stage
G&W is my top tier and will always use him in melee no matter what
Sega GT 2002 background music? Very solid choice
6:59… squirmishes?
What's the name of the music @3:16?
Melee fox > Speedrunner Mario
I was always fascinating by Jigglypuff in this game, as she wouldn't be as dominant as she is in Melee in the other Smash games. Jigglypuff definitely came in handy for Event 51 for me lol.
In terms of balance for top tiers, this and 64 are the most balanced. I think almost half the roster has somewhat of a chance against Fox.
Side note: I play competitive Ultimate but not at a high level so Ultimate could also be extremely balanced with its top tiers but that's not what I have seen or experienced (and I play Cloud).
Hey maybe you should make the entire history of yoshi in the entire smash brother series after we get the 14th melee tier list because amsa has shown us that melee yoshi is actually capable of winnings tournament if you put enough time into it
Yoshi is 100% a top tier at this point for me, Amsa winning Big House and just getting 2nd at Genesis this year with a meta that's still being developed by a lot.
0:18 song?
This video is on Top like Melee Top Tiers!
falco is definitely 3rd best in the game, his recovery is actually good because of how high his double jump goes
Their legacy lived on forever & that's why they're still good today!
Roy shouldn't be a D tier character honestly, but, well he is just under-developed, and, word of mouth of "he is worse Marth" just makes people not even bother.
We need more people like amsa, that plays and improves with the character they like, in the process redefines the meta.
I'm tired of tryhards jerking of to fox, he doesn't deserve it.
fox is fun
@@ryanlucht6625 i agree i used to main him in melee 😁😁😁
Ice climbers meta is gonna be crazy to watch cause they were held back from real development due to the crutch of wobbling for basically a decade
it's pretty neat how hand-offs result in about 90% of the damage Wobbling can do, but it looks so cool that nobody really minds.
who's counting out Falco? if anything people can't get enough of him
Marth has a spike, not a meteor??? (unless you’re on pal, then Marth has a meteor.)
I like falcon in melee a lot more than in ultimate
How to use Sheiks chain.
Easy gimp them with it until their health is ia at high percentages then F Smash 😂
Too good. This is why I'm one of the few who is NOT a fan of Melee's competitive scene.
Hopefully Junebug can pull an aMSa but that may be wishful thinking......
i know the last melee tier list had puff at #3, but in 2024 can't we just agree that Falco, Sheik, and Captain Falcon are better characters? There's a decent argument for Yoshi over Puff too...
Yoshi over puff does seems like a bit of a stretch as she does seem to hve better matchups but who knows
@@prophetedubaroque5136Yoshi loses to Fox and Sheik, Puff loses to Fox Marth and Falcon.
Considering aMSa has been giving Zain and Wizzy a lot of trouble, I don't think it's clear that Puff has better match-ups at all.
FYI Yoshi also loses to falcon@@Masaru_kun
It's really more of an argument of aMSa being better than Hbox overall and Hbox being on the decline in general... Does Jigglypuff lose to Fox, Marth and Falcon? Or does Hbox lose to Cody(and others, while still beating many top foxes), Zain, and Wizzrobe (while beating other Marths, and probably a better winrate on other Falcons but would need to double check) more often? If she does lose any of those match-ups it would be a 45-55 margain at best. I think Jigglypuff is fine where she is, especially given things like RTC rest that hasn't been optimized and it's simply that the top representative of the character has been underpreforming lately in my opinion. I have no issue raising Yoshi, but not that high. That tends to be the issue with accurately ranking characters with low representation.
@@Kade503yeah we dont really know,but at the top level it seems like the yoshi-puff match up is significantly slanted to yoshi's side, if they know how to play around rest, like aMSa does.
But Puff as 3rd is definitely too high. The results from the past couple years have shown conclusive that Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik are all higher place than puff.
So the max that it's fair to rank puff in 2024 is 5th, but even then I think it's hard to argue that Captain Falcon doesn't have better top tier matchups. Falcon certainly beats Puff anyway, so Puff is more likely to be sixth.
Puff might have fallen slightly, but it's more a case of other characters rising.
Also Hbox thinks Yoshi > Puff, so I don't think Hbox is necessarily the best argument for Puff > Yoshi lol.
Not very in comparison to later games
The top tiers are played the most because they're the most fun.... it's not that complicated. You can win with bad characters against a lot of people.
Man this is a topic that’s been covered to death and it’s kinda hard to hearing a very naive opinion on the state of contemporary melee melee game. Production quality is a insane but please just get your script revised 😊
hiya
±
Before i watch, Marth is overrated. He sucks out of the corner, Marthritis and has a lot of problem MU’s. Zain is just insane
I mean, Zain is insane that's a fact. However marth is very very good. His range, combo mobility, frame data... he may not have one absolutely stupid tool like shine or rest, however every single of jis base stat is crazy.
Also what marthitis is bad but it's really one of his only weakness. And finally he is pretty consistent as he is fairly "easy" compare to other top tier at high level (I know he as hard stuff like important pivot but compare to some other characters I see him as average difficult)
@@prophetedubaroque5136 To back zain's skill even harder, while marth is very very good.. he's not remotely #2 good. In a vacuum everyone has strengths like I could say Zelda can kill early and has a good recovery for getting back to stage and blah blah but in an actual "comparative" standard.. marth's moves/options "compared" to the other top tiers is quite lacking. Zain is most definitely just that cracked to make up the difference just like Amsa is with Yoshi or Armada was back in his time with peach. None of them are even close to #2 levels of good "character" wise but each could look it if you only knew these people.
Not that marth isn't outright better than Yoshi or peach.
@@zaelleaz5644I personally don't see marth below top tier among high tiers like sheik... I do see him not being number Two and be actually a bit below. Everything about him is just incredibly solid.
@@prophetedubaroque5136 Marth is a solid top tier no matter how you slice it. Far too good to be high tier and ought always be thought of as a top tier.... however.. he certainly doesn't have "everything" about him being incredibly solid even in a vacuum.. in comparisons to other top tiers it's worse. Dude's recovery is absolute garbage (like shiek's and such), out of shield he's worse than even high tiers let alone all the top tiers, his moves (not self) is extremely slow "comparatively" to all the top tiers (look at direct framedata if needed) and so on. But.. again.. everyone has weaknesses and strengths people can list out but at the end of the day, agreed, marth aint close to #2 and zain is just a monster.
@@zaelleaz5644I mean he does have bad out of shied and his framedata his slightly worse (though not incredibly worse considering we're talking one or two frame on half his moves and when you think about his range.) but bad recovery? I mean yeah there are ways to abuse it but if you consider it bad I don't see who you would consider good. Most top tiers have some way to abuse their recoveries after all with the truly good recoveries in the whole game being like mewtwo and pikachu I guess.
No pika mention in the potential toptiers, sadge (but ik why, all the MU are bad for pika yeeeeeeeepiiiiiiiiiii)
Pikachu has a lot of bad matchups, I feel Pikachu is going to stay in the High Tier, until I see otherwise.
@@ZachHonest i feel the same, he's good here and i dont think he can go top t iers but i think he can go up in the tier list like (with yoshi) above icies
It's not about the character it's the player
Melee is fucking overrated bro
FOX in Melee is crazy good, like just kit alone he invalidates all but 3 characters in a roster of 26. And below those 3 there is no shot at winning againsta practiced FOX. FOX may be even more polarizing and metadefining than MK was in brawl and that is saying something. FOX is Melee.
What are these 3 characters? We’ve seen at least 7 win a major and others can get top 8
Also mk invalidated all but 2 characters lmfao
@@HeDronHeDronHedron Marth, Falco and Sheik and that is a maybe... Although yes other characters have won, still a practiced FOX that knows the matchup will steamroll all the other characters I did not mention. Also speaking of MK, yes it was obvious that MK was the best character in brawl, it took time for Melee because in Melee you are more prone to make mistakes, tech wise, hey players are human. In Brawl the game was much slower and the mechanics were a little bit more set on, while Melee has all these movement and nuance, however, and going back to my point, FOX is still the best at all what the engine of Melee gives. Gimping, Killpower, Damage Output, Anticrouch cancel, recovery, recovery mixup, you name it.... similar to MK. Yes MK was more obvious the number 1 and he was the META.... guess who is the META on Melee. Again FOX is MELEE, and MELEE is FOX.
@@PERSONALEEMG yoshi has beaten several experienced foxes, and it took until 2023 for a solo fox to be a top 1 player. its not that deep
It wasn't that long ago that it seemed like Marth(Zain) could invalidate Fox, and still can against most Foxes on FD. I don't even know what you're talking about as far as "having the best recovery/recovery mixups" and plenty of other things you've listed that are just not true or debatable. Fox is the most commonly played at top level and yet it isn't just Fox and whatever three you're talking about placing high and taking tournaments... He is definitely not more polarizing than MK in Brawl, Bayo in 4, or Steve in Ultimate, which is a good thing and part of why the Melee competitive scene has been the most popular for the longest.