Just gotta say, I really appreciate the tight editing on this channel. I watch way more of your videos because they're well clipped out (without sacrificing the arguments being made). Most tierlist videos are like 40 minutes for no reason.
It’s always interesting to see how top players rank the top three. I think falco/marth COULD be on par with fox, but don’t have the same tournament results.
Like he said, how many majors has solo Fox won in the past 5 years? 2. Leffen won EVO and Smash and Splash. Fox’s tournament results are actually the worst of any character in the top 4 in terms of majors won.
@@jokerjoker7672 in the last 5 years (so back as far as 2016) leffen has won: evo, ssc, two gomls, and two dreamhacks, as well as a bunch of other tournaments that i don’t know qualify as majors of the top of my head.
That's because it's hard to perform consistently well by solo maining a spacie. That's why players like Armada and Hbox were able to win consistently during their prime because even though peach and puff are theoretically worse than fox, they are easier on the hands and hence, it's easier to be consistent with them.
yes the only solo fox was leffen but armada could've definitely won any of the later tournaments he won with just fox if thats how he wanted to play it
I honestly feel like Armada wouldn't have dominated as much if he didn't play peach. Like what iBDW mentioned, Peach is worse than Fox but she is much easier on the hands so she is a better character to play if you want consistent tournament results. Not to mention the fact that more people have fox practice than peach practice so that gave Armada the upper hand especially since Armada was literally the only high level peach during his reign.
Yeah but Cody's point was even though Fox is the best in the game it's still close, and he's not the only character that can be comfortably solo mained.
@@supernaturaltychoon3164 but we don’t know if armada’s hands would have deteriorated or caused him any significant problems if he had solo mained fox. So I think to assume it would’ve is a step to far. I definitely think it’s plausible he could’ve solo mained and done just as well.
I think I like your tierlist the best, still have some discrepancies but think you're the realist of them all, glad you're not whiny as some other players I won't mention :)
It should be noted, however, that Fly Amanita thought (and probably still thinks) Ice Climbers are bad without wobbling, and played without it only because for some reason he was really bad at keeping his rhythm with wobbling.
I expect Ice Climbers without wobbling might do better than with wobbling because, while they may be an overall worse character, dedicated Ice Climbers players will have to become much better with their fundamentals and perform better as a result, kinda similar to how PAL Sheiks performed relatively better than NTSC Sheiks in the early days of Melee.
The Wobbling ban will force ICs players in mass to experiment with their kit. I'm firmly of the mind that wobbling was a technique that was holding lower skilled players back from developing the character. It was a crutch, imo.
Considering how fast most of the top tiers can kill Nana or zone ICs out, I'm pretty sure ICs are just bad without it. The fact that ICs have made 0 impact competitively since the ban is good evidence that the character's ceiling is just not very high without it. They have a lot of cool tech, but most of it is way too situational and requires Nana to not get yeeted in the first 15 seconds.
I like your list, but I really don't like when people say ICs are “underdeveloped” or that "no one has pushed this character yet"... like really? Saying stuff like that completely ignores all the work people like Cookbook, Wobbles, Kyupuff, Domo, Fly, and many other have done to unpack all the secrets behind Ice Climbers over the years... The problem isn’t development, we have had different players master different aspects of ICs game over the years to some success, the REAL problem is no one has been able to take all these different pieces and put them together to become one complete *consistent* package, cause all these individual things are so deep, so complex and so hecking difficult to master just on their own. Right now you can master parts of ICs game and get good, but if you don’t master all of it they end up having huge exploitable holes in their game, which super holds them back. Pretty much 95% of everything ICs can do to set up/do with a desync is already known, it's successfully implementing it all in a match that no one can do consistently. It's not like people don't try though. You are correct when you say they have a ton of potential that hasn't been fully utilized yet though. We really need an Armada or someone who can take all these puzzle pieces and successfully put them together and implement them, but tbh that is asking for a lot to make a character viable for winning a major or super major. None of this crap about "no one has pushed this character yet" though. Just cause wobbling was over-rewarding for a long time doesn't mean no ICs ever explored all the other aspects of their game to try and get a leg up on the competition.
I think you're arguing semantics at that point. Everything you said is super reasonable and more likely than not ibdw would agree with all of it, he just doesn't use the same language you do. Saying "no one has pushed this character yet" for most people means the same thing as "no one has been able to take all these different pieces and put them together to become one complete consistent package". Feels like you've got a specific meaning in mind for the phrase "no has pushed this character" when most people say it pretty vaguely and don't mean what you think they mean.
@@DarkenedVibe Perhaps you are right. I guess I am really used to people generally being apathetic toward the work ICs mains have put into the character prior to the wobbling ban (I'm sure you have seen the "Fly/Wobbles was the only good ICs" comments that speckle every twitch chat & YT vid). It gets annoying when people constantly undercut that hard work, then act as though ICs clearly haven't been explored at all and have so much potential that no ICs main has ever even tried to tap into, which is obviously wrong. Everyone tries to explore their character to the fullest if they want to win, doesn't matter what character it is. And especially since wobbling was never quite powerful enough to win major tournaments for ICs mains, there was always development as people pushed to try and get ICs over that hump. So I see *"no one has pushed this character"* and it reminds me of that. Maybe I'm just jaded by bad takes, lol.
@@ピカリFritzyBeat Yeah that's reasonable. Generally speaking I'd agree with that reflex but I've got some confidence in players like ibdw and how he generally talks about stuff like this. I see the takes you're referring to on twitter whenever I make my way over there so I'm nowhere near unsympathetic. Hopefully ICs gets the savant it deserves, probably one of the current players hitting their stride, and everyone else can just shut up and these whole conversations can be avoided.
9:30 Pretty sure Axe rarely ever loses to a Marth. I don't know how the matchup works, but it's telling that he's lost to a marth less than handful of times in his career.
marth vs fox is not a who gets the better stage type of matchup, marth is better at egdegaurding fox, he gets more off grabs than fox, and he straight up out ranges fox. idk man Im with big leff on this one.
I mean sheik is better at edgeguarfing fox, she gets more grabs and outranges fox but that doesnt make sheik a character that wins against fox fox has other strenghts if he is playing according to the matchup
Then again sheik fox is solely more dependent on punish game than other natch up. And sheik gets punished harder because her missed grab has a ton of lag, her recovery has a ton of landing lag. and she's prone to wave shine combos.
i think yoshi would be can get top 8 if he had representation. amSa is the only recognizable yoshi, and most people just don't know how to counter him since he is never played.
15:05 Honestly I would say DK is better than Ganon tbh. Better overall matchups against the top and high tiers compared to Ganon. He definitely does better against Fox and Marth. He also arguably does better against Puff and Falcon. If we were to compare how DK fares against the entire roster compared to Ganon however, yeah Ganon is clearly the better character, but if you're asking me who id rather main at top level where meta relevant characters are the only matchups that really matter, Id rather have DK.
The more I watch falco the lamer I think he is, and the only real falco players are top 100 edit: I used to be the lame Falco, so I'm speaking from experience, and only realized how uncool I was when I got destroyed by my friend who barely plays.
Yes he is, his recovery is garbage, his range is garbage, and a lot of his moves are weak, have a long startup and low priority. They can also be Smash DI'd
@@N00bo3o I'll admit his grab range is terrible but everything else actually alright, his Recovery is also surprisingly good when you can aim it. His tools aren't as good as others but they can get the job done.
@@ayhrandom6150 it's not the distance that makes his up b bad it's the long startup and how easy it is to punish. Plus I forgot to mention how bad ness is when he's above an opponent he has no answer to falcon's up air for example
Between 2017 and 2018, there were moments where Plup bodied Armada's Peach, Leffen's fox, mang0's falco, and bodied the other lower tier characters as usual (e.g. Wizzy's falcon, Axe's Pika, etc.). He was also one of Zain's bracket demons besides Axe. Besides his Hbox sets, Plup won all the other sets with sheik when he won G5. Don't forget his runs at TBH7, TBH8, and Summit 9, where he went predominantly sheik.
@Morph Ball she is good for sure but defintely not a character with a lot of tourneys to back it up. I dont remember the last time a Sheik won a major tbh
@@N00bo3o he wins more. Falcon is more developed because there have been 3 in Top 15 for many years. Every time I see shiek the opponent holds ledge until the reappear and take her to town
@@kidsmitty94 I mean Sheik has better matchups against Falco, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Pikachu, etc. Sheik also has a better matchup spread against the mid tiers/low tiers. The only matchups Falcon really does better in are ICs and Puff. He probably does better against Samus too but that doesn't really matter since they both win pretty solidly.
now make one for 2001
Sheik
I like how the tiers are designated roles like, "can top 8", makes the tier list make more sense
FALCO IS THE BEST AVIAN CHARACTER IN MELEE DONE WITH THE DISCUSION.
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you
Thank you
As a luigi main, the only time I don't feel like he's a gimmick is when I watch Ka-Master
Play him like baby falcon
Just gotta say, I really appreciate the tight editing on this channel. I watch way more of your videos because they're well clipped out (without sacrificing the arguments being made). Most tierlist videos are like 40 minutes for no reason.
It’s always interesting to see how top players rank the top three. I think falco/marth COULD be on par with fox, but don’t have the same tournament results.
Like he said, how many majors has solo Fox won in the past 5 years? 2. Leffen won EVO and Smash and Splash. Fox’s tournament results are actually the worst of any character in the top 4 in terms of majors won.
@@jokerjoker7672 in the last 5 years (so back as far as 2016) leffen has won: evo, ssc, two gomls, and two dreamhacks, as well as a bunch of other tournaments that i don’t know qualify as majors of the top of my head.
Nah fox is definitely better than falco but marth might be better
That's because it's hard to perform consistently well by solo maining a spacie. That's why players like Armada and Hbox were able to win consistently during their prime because even though peach and puff are theoretically worse than fox, they are easier on the hands and hence, it's easier to be consistent with them.
yes the only solo fox was leffen but armada could've definitely won any of the later tournaments he won with just fox if thats how he wanted to play it
Mango could have pushed armada harder if armada went fox vs him..
I honestly feel like Armada wouldn't have dominated as much if he didn't play peach. Like what iBDW mentioned, Peach is worse than Fox but she is much easier on the hands so she is a better character to play if you want consistent tournament results. Not to mention the fact that more people have fox practice than peach practice so that gave Armada the upper hand especially since Armada was literally the only high level peach during his reign.
Yeah but Cody's point was even though Fox is the best in the game it's still close, and he's not the only character that can be comfortably solo mained.
@@supernaturaltychoon3164 but we don’t know if armada’s hands would have deteriorated or caused him any significant problems if he had solo mained fox. So I think to assume it would’ve is a step to far. I definitely think it’s plausible he could’ve solo mained and done just as well.
I think I like your tierlist the best, still have some discrepancies but think you're the realist of them all, glad you're not whiny as some other players I won't mention :)
I think Fly Amanita back in the day proved that ICs could be elite without wobbling, it’s just nobody recently has tried
Ppl like Fly don’t come around too often. Dude would do high level math for fun
It should be noted, however, that Fly Amanita thought (and probably still thinks) Ice Climbers are bad without wobbling, and played without it only because for some reason he was really bad at keeping his rhythm with wobbling.
I expect Ice Climbers without wobbling might do better than with wobbling because, while they may be an overall worse character, dedicated Ice Climbers players will have to become much better with their fundamentals and perform better as a result, kinda similar to how PAL Sheiks performed relatively better than NTSC Sheiks in the early days of Melee.
I mean Chudat did make it to top 6 a few years ago with ICs
ChuDat has had a long history of pushing IC's, but this list is just for the current meta.
That was pre-wobbling ban tho
Game and Watch is pretty scary, no lie.
No matchup knowledge G Dubs is A tier
4:15 What is this song??? I've heard it before, even swear it's on one of my playlists but I can't for the life of me figure it out!
Now for tier list assuming that your opponent is a certain character!
"Tier list vs fox, tier list vs falco" etc
Those are just matchup charts
@@Swampson1738 Yep, but with analysis
This game is 20 years old. Massive nostalgia here.
The Wobbling ban will force ICs players in mass to experiment with their kit. I'm firmly of the mind that wobbling was a technique that was holding lower skilled players back from developing the character. It was a crutch, imo.
Considering how fast most of the top tiers can kill Nana or zone ICs out, I'm pretty sure ICs are just bad without it. The fact that ICs have made 0 impact competitively since the ban is good evidence that the character's ceiling is just not very high without it.
They have a lot of cool tech, but most of it is way too situational and requires Nana to not get yeeted in the first 15 seconds.
As a GW main it made me happy, I chose this life :^)
This is the first time I watch a tier list on RUclips that spoils itself in the thumbnail...
I like your list, but I really don't like when people say ICs are “underdeveloped” or that "no one has pushed this character yet"... like really? Saying stuff like that completely ignores all the work people like Cookbook, Wobbles, Kyupuff, Domo, Fly, and many other have done to unpack all the secrets behind Ice Climbers over the years... The problem isn’t development, we have had different players master different aspects of ICs game over the years to some success, the REAL problem is no one has been able to take all these different pieces and put them together to become one complete *consistent* package, cause all these individual things are so deep, so complex and so hecking difficult to master just on their own.
Right now you can master parts of ICs game and get good, but if you don’t master all of it they end up having huge exploitable holes in their game, which super holds them back. Pretty much 95% of everything ICs can do to set up/do with a desync is already known, it's successfully implementing it all in a match that no one can do consistently. It's not like people don't try though.
You are correct when you say they have a ton of potential that hasn't been fully utilized yet though. We really need an Armada or someone who can take all these puzzle pieces and successfully put them together and implement them, but tbh that is asking for a lot to make a character viable for winning a major or super major.
None of this crap about "no one has pushed this character yet" though. Just cause wobbling was over-rewarding for a long time doesn't mean no ICs ever explored all the other aspects of their game to try and get a leg up on the competition.
I think you're arguing semantics at that point. Everything you said is super reasonable and more likely than not ibdw would agree with all of it, he just doesn't use the same language you do. Saying "no one has pushed this character yet" for most people means the same thing as "no one has been able to take all these different pieces and put them together to become one complete consistent package". Feels like you've got a specific meaning in mind for the phrase "no has pushed this character" when most people say it pretty vaguely and don't mean what you think they mean.
@@DarkenedVibe Perhaps you are right. I guess I am really used to people generally being apathetic toward the work ICs mains have put into the character prior to the wobbling ban (I'm sure you have seen the "Fly/Wobbles was the only good ICs" comments that speckle every twitch chat & YT vid). It gets annoying when people constantly undercut that hard work, then act as though ICs clearly haven't been explored at all and have so much potential that no ICs main has ever even tried to tap into, which is obviously wrong. Everyone tries to explore their character to the fullest if they want to win, doesn't matter what character it is. And especially since wobbling was never quite powerful enough to win major tournaments for ICs mains, there was always development as people pushed to try and get ICs over that hump.
So I see *"no one has pushed this character"* and it reminds me of that.
Maybe I'm just jaded by bad takes, lol.
@@ピカリFritzyBeat Yeah that's reasonable. Generally speaking I'd agree with that reflex but I've got some confidence in players like ibdw and how he generally talks about stuff like this. I see the takes you're referring to on twitter whenever I make my way over there so I'm nowhere near unsympathetic. Hopefully ICs gets the savant it deserves, probably one of the current players hitting their stride, and everyone else can just shut up and these whole conversations can be avoided.
at the end of melee chudat will be the goat calling it
9:30 Pretty sure Axe rarely ever loses to a Marth. I don't know how the matchup works, but it's telling that he's lost to a marth less than handful of times in his career.
love the doc respect
Bowser is the best character out of the koopa characters in melee.
What platform layouts from other games would you want to see in Melee?
Pokefloats
The entirety of bomb omb battlefield would result in really cool neutral game
@@jonuchida668 bomb omb battleroyal would be a sick mod idea
WarioWare, Smashville, and the most obvious pick, Bespin/Cloud City from Star Wars: Battlefront for the PlayStation 2.
inverse bf aka two high side plats one lower middle plat. never been done before in any smash game but the layout rules
kinda late but if anyone is curious, pika - falcon is 50-50 or very close, coming from me (yung corgi) and axe
crazy how wrong he was about yoshi
wheres wolf
marth vs fox is not a who gets the better stage type of matchup, marth is better at egdegaurding fox, he gets more off grabs than fox, and he straight up out ranges fox. idk man Im with big leff on this one.
I mean sheik is better at edgeguarfing fox, she gets more grabs and outranges fox but that doesnt make sheik a character that wins against fox
fox has other strenghts if he is playing according to the matchup
Then again sheik fox is solely more dependent on punish game than other natch up. And sheik gets punished harder because her missed grab has a ton of lag, her recovery has a ton of landing lag. and she's prone to wave shine combos.
@@emiliano6585 id say the neutral at low percents is so rough for shiek and edge guarding is bad both ways
i think yoshi would be can get top 8 if he had representation. amSa is the only recognizable yoshi, and most people just don't know how to counter him since he is never played.
Luigi forever
People often forget about Mango's Mario back in the day.
That is what I was about to say lol
My boy DK not complete Trash! Pog!
When is Samus never not next to Pikachu
@@Parpeing lol to true
@@Parpeing Duck 3-0'd hbox that one time
15:05 Honestly I would say DK is better than Ganon tbh. Better overall matchups against the top and high tiers compared to Ganon. He definitely does better against Fox and Marth. He also arguably does better against Puff and Falcon. If we were to compare how DK fares against the entire roster compared to Ganon however, yeah Ganon is clearly the better character, but if you're asking me who id rather main at top level where meta relevant characters are the only matchups that really matter, Id rather have DK.
Great list Fox is #1 right where he belongs!
no
That's a good tier list
I think Icies are actually really sick
*Wobbling noises*
Icies stagnated and regressed since Fly Amanita stopped playing
The more I watch falco the lamer I think he is, and the only real falco players are top 100 edit: I used to be the lame Falco, so I'm speaking from experience, and only realized how uncool I was when I got destroyed by my friend who barely plays.
you think lame as effortless?
Yup. Most netplay falco be spamming short hop lasers and doing shine dair shine dair shine over and over again thinking that they are sick.
So many ads
He forgot wolf lol!
Damn ness isn't that bad
Yes he is, his recovery is garbage, his range is garbage, and a lot of his moves are weak, have a long startup and low priority. They can also be Smash DI'd
@@N00bo3o I'll admit his grab range is terrible but everything else actually alright, his Recovery is also surprisingly good when you can aim it. His tools aren't as good as others but they can get the job done.
@@ayhrandom6150 it's not the distance that makes his up b bad it's the long startup and how easy it is to punish. Plus I forgot to mention how bad ness is when he's above an opponent he has no answer to falcon's up air for example
"Peach doesnt have any winning matchup" just ask all the top IC players how that matchup goes for them lol
He meant against the characters above her. Peach bodies everyone below her
Dr mario is top tier trash tier list
Good list but I mean shiek be overrated as fuck. I don't see anyone bodying with shiek, shit hasn't happened since KDJ
Plup tho
Between 2017 and 2018, there were moments where Plup bodied Armada's Peach, Leffen's fox, mang0's falco, and bodied the other lower tier characters as usual (e.g. Wizzy's falcon, Axe's Pika, etc.). He was also one of Zain's bracket demons besides Axe. Besides his Hbox sets, Plup won all the other sets with sheik when he won G5. Don't forget his runs at TBH7, TBH8, and Summit 9, where he went predominantly sheik.
@Morph Ball not really tho like both havent won any majors in a long time
@Morph Ball but we're not in 2017 lol why would you summarize that
@Morph Ball she is good for sure but defintely not a character with a lot of tourneys to back it up. I dont remember the last time a Sheik won a major tbh
3 minutes in and im happy someone putting falcon over sheik and then... NOPE!
How is falcon better than sheik
@@N00bo3o he wins more.
Falcon is more developed because there have been 3 in Top 15 for many years.
Every time I see shiek the opponent holds ledge until the reappear and take her to town
@@kidsmitty94 I mean Sheik has better matchups against Falco, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Pikachu, etc. Sheik also has a better matchup spread against the mid tiers/low tiers. The only matchups Falcon really does better in are ICs and Puff. He probably does better against Samus too but that doesn't really matter since they both win pretty solidly.