Everything you need to know about a dry sump oiling system.
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Ben covers the in's and out's of racing engine lubrication systems...including a high-end "dry sump" package and why it is better than a traditional "wet sump".
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If you regularly made more of this clear, informative, sub 10 minutes videos, this channel would blow up.. thanks a lot..
Great to see an actual head-to-head dyno comparison. So little of the theory matters if you don't see it there. Nice work. That is a beautiful sump pan and pump setup, too.
The reason I’ve always heard people saying they’re going to a dry sump system was especially if they’re going to be circle track or road racing a car that you didn’t want all of the oil getting thrown to one side of the pan and starving the engine. I know that there are certain kinds of pans that have baffles or you can get a different pick up tube to put on the other side if you’re just going to be running in a circle, but from my understanding, the dry sump is the king when it comes to protecting yourself from oil starvation.
Ring seal information is right on point. However, the argument about the piston having to displace the air from below it is not. As one piston moves down, another moves up and the volume of the crankcase remains constant, so the pistons are moving air around, but not pressurizing it except by blow-by. It is mildly easier to push a piston against a vacuum due to aerodynamic drag, but not due to pumping pressure since the crankcase volume never changes (unless you have a one-cylinder engine or separated cylinders like in some two-strokes). We just aren't reducing pressure enough to significantly reduce aerodynamic drag. Even in the case of a single cylinder, the air pressure in the case would just act like a spring. It would make it hard to push the piston down, but make it easier to raise the piston up, so the pressure would require no net work. With a vacuum in the case, it is easier to get the piston down, but harder to raise it up. The main benefits are ring sealing and making sure the crankshaft isn't having to slice through a reservoir of oil with each revolution. As you mentioned, it also provides better options for oil pressure and volume adjustment, scavenging from every corner of the tank or engine, free range on oil system volume, and, of course, reducing the height of the engine. And no crankcase oil leaks because of the vacuum. :)
Absolutely But RUclips experts are always right?
@@tomhutchins1046 show me the fault in his logic... Everything he said is spot on. Maybe just maybe, YT commenters might just know as much as the person presenting the video. I mean after all there are no qualifications required to post a YT video, and there are lots of self proclaimed experts posting videos, presenting information like it is a fact when in fact they couldn't be further from the truth. Being popular doesn't make you right, being right does.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering 30+ years of high end engine building there buddy.
Dvcxz gt Is %100 percent correct.
Now you have a choice learn something or stick your head up your butt and argue
@@tomhutchins1046 what exactly is there to learn (or argue about for that matter)? bvcxz gt and EFI University said almost identical things, with the exception of bvcxz gt made one minor correction about the air from the bottom of the piston being displaced rather than pumped (which he is right about). Bill Dailey himself (the guy who made that dry sump) made comment on sealing each section versus allowing them to transfer the air about.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering I see you chose the stick your head up your butt option
I love human ingenuity, you told me the answers to the questions i didnt realise i wanted to ask.
Cheers guys.
The description of "pumping loss" starting at 6:00 is incorrect. "Pumping loss" refers to the losses of moving air in and out of the cylinder via the intake & exhaust tracts. Also, if you have an even-cylindered, even-fire engine, there's no internal pumping pressure, because as one piston is moving down, another is moving up in the opposite portion of the stroke.
Absolutely But RUclips experts are always right?
Thank you, very well done video. I always wanted to know what the difference was and this video hit the nail in the head!
Thanks for explaining and showing the difference and why.
Great explanation and testing, well done.
Super interesting and well done video!
Thank you for such a clear detailed video
Nice work, good explanation for average corvette owner, thank you.
Great video 'not to technical and not to basic very well presented just easy to watch and without getting a headache 👍
Great explanation and evidence 👍🏻 good job bro
Dang, you are a GREAT instructor.
Excellent video. Thank you for the research
Great video. One comment is while that I agree the vacuum in the crankcase will improve piston ring sealing, however, at some point the frictional losses of the piston rings rubbing against the cylinder bore will negate the benefit of a better seal. Obviously, you will have to optimize your piston rings based on how much vacuum you get in the crankcase.
I know I’m a year late but I’m still a new subscriber thank you for that information hands-down
Thank you so much. I've always wondered what those huge cans were for sitting next to the fuel cell of many races/drag cars. Now I know.
Excellent vid. Complements for the information. That Daley dry sump looks pretty sweet.
Great video!!!
Thank you for all the info
i think Porcha was using this system back in early 2000.
thanks for video
Great explanation.
Excellent video, thank you.
Great video 😊👌 Thanks for the explanation.
great demonstration
Amazing video❤️
Great video thanks for breaking it down
Really well explained. Thanks
Best video on dry sumps
This is so good!! Its concise and down to the point with ALL the facts.
Thank you for the useful information
I would think another benefit would be, is that with a dry sump, the oil pan is much smaller, and thats good for doing LS swaps for example, because the smaller oil pan doesnt get in the way of suspension and steering components. and also because you could place the engine lower in the car, lowering center of gravity. One downside to drysump I would think, is that if the belt driving the oil pump breaks at high engine rpm, you could damage the engine, wheres the wet oil pump is driven off the crank and chances of it failing are low.
Hoping for more knowledgeable videos and know hows Ben.
Awesome explanation! Tks! 👍🏻👌🏻
Very well made video, extremely informative! Thanks!
very interesting..thancs...
Why doesn't this have thousands of likes? Liked & Subbed, oh, & shared
Very informative so thanks for posting. I am configuring my custom 427 Noonan block as a street performance build. The block requires a custom pan, so a dry-sump was a no-brainer. Daily Engineering was my first choice, but like many aspects with a custom build, it's been easier said than done.
What size pulley did you go with?
fantastic info. thanks
really enjoyed this. now i know. i own a harley so this generated my interest.
I must say I wast aware of the power gain with a dry-sump oil system.
In 1970 the Javelins that Penske was running had engines that could be over powered by the brakes*. In 71 when when the SCCA changed the rules (with Penske advocating it as a possible cost savings for teams on more limited budgets to help prevent blown engines) the Javelins went to the engine over powering the brakes.
*when ever Penske's organization took on a program the first thing they looked into was improving the braking system. Better braking allows you to go deeper into the corners. On result of this brakes off of the Pordche 917 wound up with AMC part #s for use in Nascar. And yes the Javelins were suffering from an oiling system that was not really designed for continous high rpm operations.
The way I was taught and, in my mind, if I have an engine that's worth putting a dry sump on. I would put it on there never thinking about a gain in horsepower. I would 10 times out of 9 times put the dry sump system on this dream engine if it took 20 horsepower from me. It just so happens there is no trade off. correct me if I'm wrong.
Great informational video.
This is awesome
Awesome! Now I have to retrofit my Hemi...
According to tests ran by Engine Master hosts, that difference in power could be entirely explained simply by the reduction of the amount of oil in the wet sump below the pan manufacturer's specifications. Further testing would be needed and information of the test engine published for the conclusions stated that a dry sump system is better to be proven/evaluated by peer review.
so you don't believe any of the data presented here? lol ok
@@supernice_auto I typed this comment so long ago I'm a little hazy on what was in the original video but at a glance it appears I wasn't denying test results in the video as you insinuated, I'm simply skeptical of the conclusion reached. Based on what I wrote, what I'm claiming is either: there's testing data from Engine Masters that contradicts this test's results and further testing is needed to isolate the variable causing the variation or that data from Engine Masters tests show that this change in horsepower could be overcome simply by distancing the oil surface in the wet sump from the crankshaft (in which case the gain in horsepower isn't due to the dry sump itself but flaws in his specific wet sump setup). Either way, further testing and/or peer review is needed to prove his conclusion.
@@keld101 gotcha, thanks for the clarification. Do you have a link to said engine master video?
@@supernice_auto Unfortunately MotorTrend stopped posting new Engine Masters videos on RUclips after season 1 but if you go to their website you can get a 30 day free trial (the same is also available on Amazon's Prime Video). The main episode is called "How Oil Kills Power!" [Season 3 Episode 32].
www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/how-oil-kills-power/35451/
I run a 5 stage dry sump on mine when I had it built my machine shop and engine guy wanted me to go with it and the clear view see thru filter cause They said we would be pushing the limits when I told them boost numbers I wanted to run.
Excellent comparison however there was a major variable not considered. The oil flow rate and pressure of the dry sump pump is likely to be different to the wet sump pump. Pressumably the relief setting of the two pumps were set the same as each other, however almost certainly the pressures were different at different engine speed. A plot of oil pressure vs RPM for both cases would highlight any oil pressure differences between the two systems.
A minor point is that oil temp, coolant temp, ambient air temp and pressure were presumably also monitored for both cases, to ensure that inconsistancies were not contibuting to the power difference.
I recall that you did say that the wet sump pump heats the oil at high RPM when the relief valve opens, therefore an extended run at high RPM, would quantify the extra heat generated by the wet sump system.
Intriguing.....
On V engines i think the pressures under piston ring are balanced. The same amount of pistons goes up where the same goes down... it's seems to a good upgrade on high rpm engines with turbo or compressor not for daily and definitely not for hemi with mds on.
Just the longevity it adds the engine is worth it! If you're putting over 5k into an engine, you'd be hard pressed to find a better way to spend almost 2k, than a good stage 5 dry sump!
I feel like everyone has a misunderstanding of a pumping loss. the way i see it, the loss is on the intake stroke not the compression stroke. before you think im crazy. go get you a milk shake from sonic, a good cold one.......is it easier to suck the ice cream up that straw or is it easier to blow in the straw. guys "boost" is positive pressure on the intake. the "pumping loss" is the suction of the piston sucking air in. Ive noticed on the later fuel injection engines that burn gasoline they are getting better at controlling the rpm with the fuel. in a cruise the throttle valve will be wide open. even before the direct injection the later ford f150 v8s were doing as such. its hard to believe that even being possible as volatile petrol is. i hope i dont come off as a troll, it took me a long while to understand that one. a diesel engine is a good example.
What about the Pickup holes and whatnot? Like what about the Blocks with the holes that lead to the Oil filter?
Hello EFI University! Who makes the reference dry sump pan w/ pump? I need a multi-stage integrated pump as shown. Thank you all!
Fantastic. And the dry sump gains may show up more on a pass at the dragstrip because there is no oil sloshing around on the run, as with the wet sump.
No what?
Can a dry sump engine setup run 100% vertical? Forever? For exaple. Can i install a drysump setup on a honda b18 engine. And use it to replace my boats outboard engine's powerhead?
Question: With the dry sump , does that mean the bottom of the oil pan is now higher than with the wet sump oil pan? Is there more space for the engine to be lowered with dry sump configuration? if using aluminum for most all parts, Is there any weight savings with the dry sump?
Does this help with fuel efficiency as well?
The pumping loss of the piston going down creating crank case pressure as he stated is only sort of true on a single cylinder engine. On a multi cylinder engine one piston is going down another is going UP. Even on a single cylinder engine it can in theory store energy in the form of pressure but once the piston reverses it will be released pushing the piston back up. There is bound to be some loss in that cycle. Even a more modern race V8 like a NASCAR cup motor with a four chamber crank case follows the same principle one going down the other going up. Crank case pressure on a modern engine built correctly due to ring leakage should be close to zero.
If you consider all the factors driving the pressure pump and scavenger stages on a dry sump setup will actually reduce power over a properly designed wet sump. The catch is longevity a wet sump engine basically lubricates with foamed oil and g forces are a problem . A properly designed dry sump scavenges the foam and condenses it back to oil.
The last paragraph clearly explains why Penske lobbied the SCCA to allow wet dumps in the Trans Am series starting in 1971. Another possible benefit is lower engine mounting in the car improving handling.
@@mpetersen6 wet dumps? You mean dry sumps?
@@tomhutchins1046
Yah. I hate when spell check on my tablet does stuff and I dont catch it. Of course dry dumps are better than wet dumps 🙄
It could also be explained a bit by an easier to form oil film under vacuum and less load on the oil pump itself.
does this additional vaccum in crankcase blow seal?
Of course there is some oil the crank hits as it's falling but you wouldn't be able to start the thing in the cold if the crank was touching the oil
my girlfriend thinks I stay up late up to no good… little does she know I’m nerding out over an oil pump system and pretending I’m building a c7 zo6 like I own one (I wish)😂
How do you know how much vacuum to use on a given motor? Is the Vacuum adjustable? When does it become detrimental? Is there a way to calculate how much vacuum to use? Can you get a dry sump for any motor?
What brand pump and pulley was that?
Be nice to compare the wet sump set-up with a vacuum pump versus the dry sump system. If crankcase vacuum alone is responsible for the gains, you should see the identical benefits with a vacuum pump on a wet sump system and should be less expensive. Dry sump are cool no doubt.
Motorcycle dry sumps are shorter too and can give a lower centre of gravity.
Wow! Super concise and well explained. Thank you! Still don't 100% get the X stages part. Like does it refer to pumping volume?
Not even joking the stages system that you see everywhere was pulled from gran tourismo. It basically means how good it is, but since its not a real system of measurement on any part its pretty useless since it doesn't tell you anything.
The 5 'stages' are 5 individual pumps all running on the same shaft, so as he says in the video, there's the pressure stage - the pump which supplies oil from the tank to the engine, and 4 scavenge stages. These are 4 separate pumps, in this case scavenging oil (and air) from each of the 4 cylinder V pairs. The discharge side of these is piped or manifolded together and piped into the oil tank. On a 6 stage the 6th pump stage typically scavenges from the valley, picking up the oil so it doesn't drain back down over the rotating & reciprocating parts among other reasons.
How does the oil get back into the engine??
Takes out moisture from the oil better too!
For anyone who is building a G3 Hemi , once you get over 7500 RPMs a dry sump is worth 25HP...seriously 25hp on a 426ci G3
will cars with dry sump systems have faster throttle respond too?
Would it be better for a dry sump if you go to a race track few times a year or not ?
Trust me when i say this, you will most definitely know when you need a dry sump. high reving hi dollar parts is where you will find it. I wouldnt think any engine builder would do this conversion with a hp gain in mind.
Nice video thanks a lot :) still don’t understand how the oil get pushed up into the motor tho . Does a oil pickup still get used ?
Ah does the oil pick up run straight off the pump instead of going inside the sump ?
@@internalcombustion8744 Hello, I love your name. If you watch at 4:00 he explains it half decent but leaves a lot out. That looks like a new oil pan you have to bolt on and notice it has a belt driven pulley. It's rotating and scavenging for all the oil that falls off the rotating assembly that falls into the pan into those separated areas. Then it gets sucked out of there and put into an external reservoir that is pressurized oil with no air. Then from there it will get piped into the oil pressure galleys, i'm not sure if it's just one inlet at the oil filter or what, I would assume so. Then it goes through the galleys into the crankshaft to feed the mains and through the crankshaft to feed the rods and then it all spills out back into that new oil pan that is sucking it all up and feeding it to the reservoir. The vacuum created by that belt driven oil pump is what helps reduce crankcase pressure and in theory seat the rings better. This, combined with no long having frictional losses with all the oil slapping around inside the rotating engine provided the dyno gains.
@@JohnDoe-lt9sg
Oil draining on to the rotating assembly and creating windage is one reason you see enclosed camshaft housings on the really big buck pushrod engines used in Nascar etc. The enclosed camshaft housing then has it's own dry sump pickup. This should also help evacuate the used oil from the valve train removing oil that could potentially pool and cause power losses. Plus pulling the used oil from the heads should lower cylinder head temperatures.
How does the fact that the scavenger pump is driven by a pulley prevents oil over pressure if the main pump is still powerd directly by the shaft?
Because when tuning you have an ideal rpm for maximum power you swap pullys to change the oil pressure at desired rpm
If only they sold a kit for my 04 Camry 😂😂😂😂 jkjk
Interesting...💯👍
There seems to be a factor in the work a piston does on it’s down stroke you failed to either mention or take account of & that is when one piston is on it’s down stroke creating crank case pressure another piston is on an up stoke making crank case vacuum so one cancels out the other.
That is only partly true though, because there are a lot of restrictions to airflow in the crank case that make it less than a perfect trade off, so there is still work being lost to pumping...
So if it's a wet sump or dry sump, why do you call it an oil pan not a sump?
Great informative video, thanks.
I have just put a wet sump system on a fresh built LS2 and it’s blowing oil past the rear main. It’s pushing 80psi already but you have me thinking maybe I need to run the pump harder to get the vacuum I may not be seeing, according to the oil leak.
What are people’s thoughts on this?
the pump on the dry sump has 1 positive pressure pump like on a dry sump and 4 more pumps creating the vacuum\sucking the oil out of the crankcase. maybe you just need a seal and /or make sure you have a place for your crankcase pressure to escape... valvecover with a pcv or a open port would be a good place.
Want to know more about a dry sump and you tell us about a wet sump. We know how wet sump works. We've been within 3ft of one every day of our life!
14hp/17lb.ft for a system cost $6000 ? No thanks
I can make 25hp to the wheel with a single timing advance degree in my turbo wet sump ls3 95 octane
Thanks for the informative video
This is more useful in an application like mine where I need to lower my truck but am limited due to an elongated pickup tube. I am considering a dry sump to eliminate the need for a super deep oil pan. It is not only about hp gain, you can build a system for much less than 6k you just need to know where to look.
can you please Make An App Like Howacarworks.com so that we can learn on the go
#Please
Since your findings show the dry sump system superior, why don't the auto manufacturers build them this way?
Money
For what a dry sump cost it's not worth it for 14hp. Run a deeper higher capacity pan and run it a few quarts low. That with a crankcase evacuation system will do the same thing for a lot less money.
You mentioned with a wet sump the oil pump takes works to pump resulting in a loss of HP.
Are we pretending the dry sump doesn't use a externally mounted oil pump that in all actuality uses more HP to operate than a basic wet sump? I love my dry sump for reasons of G forces in and out of corners in my offroad truck and nascar build but I don't believe I make more HP by any means. Potentially less to be honest. I guess what im getting at is its a safety/longevity system not a performance mod in the form of HP gain.
I dont believe the HP gain was from the dry sump system. I believe it was from the crank case vaccuum creating a better ring seal which is achieved with a vac pump on a wet system for the same result.
The difference in pumping work is due to the fact the we can intentionally alter the amount of oil being pumped in the first place so that we do not need to bypass as much once we reach the target pressure. So we can choose to run smaller pressure section gears and adjust pulley ratios in order to do less work with a dry sump. For example...on some of our very high rpm stuff, we run a .650” wide pressure section gear as opposed to a normal .850” wide gear. That way we can still achieve the required pressure but with much less excess flow that needs to be bypassed.
You are also not pumping airiated oil straight back into the engine. Plus the dry sump should be scavenging oil off of the rotating assembly. Windage robs power. I'm surprised aerodynamics do not play more of a role in crankshaft design. It is going to take a certain amount of hp at high rpm to spin the crank and move that air/oil mix out of the way. Say it takes ten hp to move the air/oil mix in the crankcase at high rpm. If you can improve the aerodynamics on the crank and rods enough to reduce the power loss by 50% that's 5 free hp. Every little bit helps.
It is one more advantage with dry sump.....engine can bee fittet lower on the car and center of gravity is much lower ...werry mportant too performance car.
Well it's settled. The Accord is gettin' a dry sump system
OKAY, SO WHY NOT MAKE EVERY CAR A DRY SUMP THEN?
Becuase it's more expensive and it isn't useful for many cars.
Need to change the title. You answered ZERO of my questions.
How come this guy is American but not annoying?
this guy is literally saying he changes pump pulley during running to save power
I think he is saying he can change it to suit a given engine build.