It pretty much sums up why I have projects and not just stuff I need to fix / build. Stuff I need to fix gets done the proper way and projects get done in the most ludicrously over complicated way. There's not many problems in life that can't be solved by a bloody minded stubbornness and a refusal to face reality... And an Arduino.
But it's not frustration it's the adventure of going on the unknown path that's the fun part. Sure you can just go buy the parts and they'll just fit together... But you wouldn't have an ISO grid on the bottom.
*IM 52* when I got to about 48 I stopped saving money on projects - I have saved SO MUCH money since I stopped saving money... What I do now is I buy the professional thing I need - my eyes water at the cost every time - but at the end of the year I have MONEY. Actual spare money.
I'm definitely going to have to use that fractional logic on my future projects. Just tell people (the wife) that you spent a fraction of the price of a new thing by building it your self, and don't bother with the trivial detail that your fraction is an improper one.
Just show her the material costs. Yes, dear, this lump of aluminium, couple sheets of metal, fasteners and hoses were only a few dollars! The legit setup would be over $1000, I have saved much money! Please do not look at the thousands of dollars in tools, machinery and lost time surrounding those dollars. Reminds me of ToT, why buy something for $10 when you can make it yourself for free, and a full machine shop, and $30 in materials
@@helplmchoking But if I have to something similar again, then I already have the tools for it. But for the most time, these types of projects tend to need different tools each time 😂
I look forward to uploads from this channel more than any other on RUclips regardless of what the project is. As an engineer and lover of tinkering and working on cars I love the way you talk through a project and are humble and sarcastic about the entire design process. Cant wait to see what's next!
MacroMachines is a good one, too. Dude is building a model a roadster from basically scratch. 95% of the car he built. Dude even sandcasted his own pedals. I think the only things he didn't make is the frame, axles, wheels. He even made a plate to bolt a jag I6 to a model a transmission.
Matt's gonna do a budget dry sump from repurposed OEM parts - goddamn, finally! I keep seeing people on GRM saying they wanna do this but it never happens for one reason or another. It's here! Can't wait to see my boy Matt finally crack this thing - and along the way maybe I'll learn why the commercial dry sump systems are so expensive, what the tricks and compromises are for a locost/DIY approach. Oh, this is gonna be great! Oh.
Matt, that was brilliant. The whole idea of a "..fraction of the cost..." is genus. A fraction where the the numerator is many times a multiple of the denominator is a "..is too, a legit fraction.." . You must be an engineer, because you clearly have an engineer's understanding of mathematics.
I love this channel, it's so accurate. I'm about to "save" some money rebuilding the transmission in my "low miles" Econoline. I think I'll save about a thousand by buying all of the specialty tools first, and then save the rest by upgrading to a stage 1 rebuild kit so I don't have to save all of this money a second time.
I loved this episode. I knew immediately that fraction was going to be an improper one. But hey, I feel the pain on this one. Thanks for showing how this stuff really goes on projects!
Oh dear... I suggest that you look at a 1950's British motorcycle dry sump system. It is a reciprocating double pump driven by a crankshaft cam, the large bore pump is the scavenge, the smaller one is feed from the tank (located higher than the engine) to the engine. Simple but effective. The sump in those engines was truly dry. It also has the added advantage of keeping the oil cooler.
Matt: You can use plain-old oil pumps if you weep a tiny bit of pressurized engine oil back to their inlets. One drop of oil every second and they will run at 7000 rpm pumping otherwise dry air forever. (I tested - it works)
@@helplmchoking that Porsche dynamic dampening motor mount looks 😎 and it's definitely a downsized version of what I was thinking Super fast mat is fairly smart, he could probably figure out the degrees it needed to rotate around the crank axis at maximum lateral Gs in order to maintain oil pressure. But I think 60° would be enough
This reminds me so much of Austin Kleon's life of a project. You always start with "It's the best idea ever!" only to eventually fall into into the abyss. But by then, you're already too involved to just drop it, so you keep on pushing until you reach the "It sucks, but it's not as bad as I thought" moment.
Looking forward to learning how the air-oil separator is made! 99% of my automotive technical knowledge is from reading. Finally Matt is showing the actual parts and how they work. Thanks Matt!
I could be wrong (I'm probably wrong) but I think it works similarly to a swirl pot, which Matt talked about in one of his Tesla Jag cooling system videos
@@zackrogers9334 You are not wrong. Swirl Pot. I had a dry-sump in my previous Caterham. The reservoir looked just like a supersized version of the OEM swirl-pot in in the cooling system of my previous Lotus Europa.
The oil pan designing part reminds me of many of my own projects. I will design things to be as efficient as I can until I remember that I don't need to add complexity to chase diminishing returns for performance that doesn't matter.
Yes yes I enjoyed your video, mostly beause I have made a few dry sumps myself. A few were made by the engine itself by being old and using all the oil in the wet sump until it was a dry sump, others were made the easy way such as throwing too much money at the project, which looks much like youre currantly doing, others by combining used oil pumps simmilar to what you had in mind until you chickened out because they had no bearings etc. Just for the records, these pumps work fine when used as scavenge pumps as the never run completely dry. Think about it and you´ll discover why. Thanks for the fun vid🙂
@@h-j.k.8971 that's not what you said above. You said they could be used as scavenge pumps since they wouldn't run completely dry, and you didn't elaborate any further. Do you have anything to add?
Would it have been easier/cheaper to do an electric scavenging pumps? Redundancy (2 or 3 separately powered pumps) + put some magnetic encoders and flow meters on them to flash a big red light at you if they stop spinning. I would also suggest some sort of oil level sensor in the tank.
Most of the electric pumps I've seen suggested for this purpose (for dry sumps and remote mount turbos) are just relabeled transfer pumps, and aren't designed to move oil at operating temperature and will eventually fail.. Though I'd be very interested to see some are actually suitable!
I’m dry dumping a 1600hp LS right now. It’s the easiest block to plumb I’ve ever done. I even have to make the oil pan from scratch. Good info for beginners.
Matt - I repurposed a Chrysler mini-van power steering pump; drove it it from a rear transaxle half shaft with a V-belt like old NASCAR. The output directs a jet of transaxle lube right at the ring and pinion mesh of my upside-down and running backwards Corvair transaxle, used in a Kelmark adapter kit with an SBC - works great; looks great; was free plus my time.
Did the same with hydraulic scavenge pumps and a 2 gallon reservoir, feeding a 160psi HV oil pump. I used this on a 74 Volvo rally car build in the mid 1980's. I actually stopped using the Volvo redblock 2.0L and went with a full tilt 305 Rpm build, with the homemade drysump. In hindsight I believe I killed the Redblocks from my own errors and inexperience back then in the 80's. I kept melting pistons...but it never once threw a rod or hurt the crank. Those Reds are F1 quality castings!
Great video. Just what I was looking for. I have a 98 Pathfinder 3.3L with a similar oil pump. It was an elderly couple's for 20 years. I don't think they used it much. Low miles, 6,000 a year average, and likely wasn't driven hard ever. I think they let oil sit in it and maybe their mechanic put snake oil in it as a sales pitch. There was gummy honey-colored stuff on the refill cap. Something is causing this Pathfinder to knock at startup for 3-4 seconds and then between 1,800 and 3,300 RPM. If coasting between 1800 and 3300, it ceases. I think I caught rod bearing wear early and I replaced them. And checked the mains. Mains were good. Two rods had mild wear. No slack or slope in anything. Metal flakes stopped appearing. But still the knock between those RPM. It runs perfectly, otherwise. And the body and interior is like new. So it's a nice one I'd like to keep long-term. What do you think about this idea? If the oil isn't changed well can the valve system in the pump stick or malfunction and cause oil pressure to be insufficient? The pressure is 100% consistently poor at startup for 3 seconds and under load between 1800 to 3300 RPM. Makes no sense, this loss of pressure at fixed time, other than faulty pump. I know there is also a pan gasket leak at the front and back. I thinned the oil as an experiment to see if pressure/noise changed and oil began quickly dripping from both ends of the oil pan when it was at warm idle. I thinned the oil 50% with motor flush, which is basically kerosene. I drained out two quarts and put in 2 quarts cleaner. So I have to pull the pan anyways to fix those leaks, so might as well pull inspect and replace the pump as well. Also have to check timing as well and swap all those parts as their age is unknown. The pressure problem was present before the leaks were noted. So the big leaks are new and the problem is the exact same. Do you know of a good oil pump replacement video of my motor or very similar? I found a timing kit one, but no oil pump.
You & I think a lot alike. I really appreciate what it takes to create your own anything. Anyone can just shell out the dough, but to mostly create it yourself is cool, even if it doesn't necessarily save $ in the short-term. You'll use the tools again, or some friend will need to borrow etc. Plus you understand every facet of your oil system. Great job!
I saw someone mentioned your name on another platform so, I looked you up, I very glad I did! People always say spend twice as much and twice the time to diy!
Or you could buy Chevy LS oil pumps that are driven off the crank & make an adapter to fit your crank. The pumps are around $40. You would need to mill some adapter plates to simulate the engine block surfaces.
I've watched this vid a few times now and it got me thinking about accumulators again. I've used oil accumulators in the past in streetcars where I couldn't use a deep or widened pan(68 bigblock Dart, you feel me?), I've wondered if the problem of the rapid drop in pressure as the oil is pushed out of the cylinder could be dealt with by having the outlet from the accumulator in the oilpump pickup itself where the oil would be immediately pressurized by the pump instead of introducing the oil into the engine downstream from the pump. It doesn't address the issue of the finite amount of oil in the cylinder but you would have more reliable pressure as long as it lasted. I can think of a couple of "simple" ways to route the line to the pickup that are something less than a colossal p.i.t.d. but never really needed more than tthe accumulator could give me so never explored the idea. I have a Lowcost w Mazda 12a power that I've been building since the 2nd Bush administration though and the idea of a big frantic bike engine sometimes seems like a good way to delay completion till the NEXT Bush administration so I started thinking about it again. How many seconds of full pressure oil do you think would have been necessary to avoid blowing up the mill you blew up? All hail
how much amps does the water pump draw? it'll be interesting to see at which rpm the electricals will hit 13.5v with the headlights, blinkers and water pump on
I don’t know, I might need to put in a PWM controller that’s based on coolant temperature rather than just running the pump at full blast all the time. We’ll see
@@SuperfastMatt It would be interesting to see! I am looking at converting my 1991 Jaguar XJ6 to electic fans and yes, on-off control is simpler, but pwm would be nice!
Matt, I'm neither looking or subscribing (in general, not personal), and I still get (and watch) your vids (including old ones) in my feed. Praise the algorithm
Pure gold. Had no idea so many products were available to fit. Kits! The iso = space junk joke was killer. Next is some gold electrical contacts and solder?
My buddy Jesse Britsen founded BRD back in 2008. He builds dry sump systems for all the popular bike engines. We worked together at west race cars. We built a really quality D sports racer. All bike engine powered sports racers. We also were a manufacturer for IMSA lites. A feeder series for American lemans. We both were crew chiefs on the cars for many years. So we are well versed in the issues of keeping a bike engine well oiled in a sports racer with massive downforce and super high G loads. Some guys had decent success with gated wet sump pans. But it was very track dependent. Ac usurps were a joke on F1000 and sports racers. Might be fine on a track day car. My racing days are over. But I am building a Mini Cooper for a customer. That has a George dean built hyabusa. With a BRD drysump and quaife drive box. I just wanted to share my experience of racing motorcycle powered races cars. I love your s600! I’ve always wanted to build a car for myself one day! The S600 is so right for a modern moto power plant! 😁
Flawless victory, now you can amortise off the investment made in this project against the potential future certainty of buying a 3rd and 4th engine, the labour of having someone else fit it and more! Plus whenever you use the CNC machine you can start moving the cost onto that one's bill. Soon this project will be in negative spend and actually earning you theoretical money. Not real money of course. Thats already gone. :D
I started watching this video with the knowledge that spending slightly more than what it would cost to buy it would also count as an improper fraction... So the ending was not unexpected
I know you already spent money fixing your issue, but i have a Locost 7 with R1 engine and the way i fixed the oiling issue was very different and a fraction of the cost you spent. I used a section of PVC in the center where the pickup pulled oil from to create a skinny cylinder area in the center of the oil pan for the oil pump to pickup oil from, then using silicone i poured in the oil pan filling all the area around the PVC pipe up to the top of the oil pan mating surface. This leaves the only area for oil to sit inside the oil pan is inside that cylinder cavity the PVC pipe left behind. Then i removed the PVC pipe and trimmed the silicone to smoothen out any defects from the pour. Then on the side that is facing the front of the car i welded in a 1 inch bung, which i have copper tubing connected to wrapped around the bottom of the engine at the level of the OEM pan oil level giving me capacity. The engine's oil pump pulls oil from the skinny cylinder void in the oil pan to feed the engine. The oil draining back into the oil pan is forced to drain into that small cavity in the center of the oil pan since the silicone is filling the rest of the oil pan area. The excess oil via gravity drains into the copper pipe to give the engine oil capacity, which gravity is constantly trying to drain back into the oil pan. When the engine is turned off the oil drains into the copper pipe to maintain the stock oil level. I placed the bung for the spillover point at the side of the engine facing the front of the car, so under acceleration the oil in the copper pipe is given advantage to drain into the oil pan easier. This has worked perfectly for me. I did have to relocate the drain plug since silicone covered the original one. The way i change oil and check oil level is purely by ball valve. On the copper tubing that wraps around the bottom of the engine. I have a bracket holding the end of that tubing at the level the oil level needs to be at, so i just open that ball valve and pour oil into the engine and when it starts dripping out of the ball valve its at level and i shut it off to seal the oil system.
It's what we do in all our race cars made with street car engines. Particularly important when running a formerly FWD traverse engine RWD longitudinal...still overfill those about a quart as drainback under extended Gs is not quite what was designed from the factory.
Matt, Nice start on a dry sump, couple of comments, 1. Don't use NPT [National Pipe Thread] fittings, they leak, vibrate out and it looks like you tapped them to deep as the fittings look loose. 2. Electric water pumps are less than optimum, there is a rule of thumb that the water flow should be 10 gpm/100 hp so you need at least 20 gpm but electric pumps are rated at zero outlet pressure so any pressure required to push the water through the engine will reduce the actual amount of water going through the engine. I see you selected a Davis Craig unit which is good, as they are the only water pump people I have found that provide flow/pressure charts for their pumps so I would use that to select the pump. I will be interested to see your oil tank design, do you plant to fab yourself or buy one?
I haven’t had any problems with NPT fittings since I started using Loctite 545. I didn’t show the fittings fully tightened with Loctite in the video, but that’s how they’re in there now. I’ll probably fabricate a oil reservoir, with some help from SendCutSend.
I was hoping you would show this vid as a conversion of your stock pan into a sump tube setup. This one, while really nice, is a lot more than most mechs can do with our rudimentary tools. My application is a Subaru swap into a Beetle, and the sheetmetal pan is way low on the Subi motor. Sheetmetal is much easier to weld fittings into for this, somehow.
Great information about setting up a dry sump system. I have a friend that is building a 67 Midget racecar. He has been looking at the accumulator type. Yours seems so much better. Thanks for the friendy tip.
Matt, love the swinging oil pickup, not seen that before. What about using the Cosworth Subaru Oil Pan Baffle system with the rubber flapper valves? Lets the oil in but not out.
Fantastic, as usual.... Oil pressure sensor, check the data/instruction sheet!!! Fitted a similar sensor for keeping an eye on fuel pressure (had a spare hole in the dash for a gauge...🙄), drilled and tapped the fuel rail, stood back to admire, just so happened to notice the instructions that came with the sender, and says DO NOT MOUNT DIRECTLY ON ENGINE, VIBRATION WILL DAMAGE THE UNIT..... 'jsmcortina' of megasquirt fame, has recently damaged an lm7 through low oil pressure (but no oil pressure warning light), so there's code now, to bring on the oil warning light, depending on pressure vs rpm, although, maybe why you've fitted the sensor, rather than low pressure switch......🙄🤔
Rebuilt an old Nascar 3 stage for a 4 cylinder and got used tanks and such. It was cheaper, but not by a huge factor for sure. I guess it helped that no one was still producing the kits for the engine I had.
@@lewa_j - I commented prior to watching, it was a pure fluke that I chose a fraction greater than one. I also like to eat 3/1 of a normal portion of food ;-)
My dad was building a race car that had to conform to period specs. A dry sump wasn't an option, so he built a set of 1-way gates in the oil pan so that on turns the oil could not slosh to the side. Worked really well, but took a while to make and get just right.
A cheap source of tall, thin tanks are fire extinguishers. Bonus if you have one of the recalled Kidde ones with the plastic handle since they'll replace them for free, and they don't care if you forget to send them back the old ones. They're made of weldable aluminum, you can buy an aluminum weld on radiator cap for about $15, and you can get weld on AN fittings for pretty cheap too.
I love the 710 descriptor. There is a joke: a new driver gets a low oil light, calls his dad to ask about it. His dad says buy a quart, take off the oil cap and dump it in there. The kid cannot find the oil cap. 'dad, all I see is the 710 cap.'
Back in motorsports school we tried to use a multi section hydraulic pump from a commercial application. We sized one with a similiar rotational volume, got it cheap off ebay. There were several small modifications that we made to the pump to make sure things stayed "in place", it actually worked pretty well. It weighed A LOT, but it was cool to try it.
3380$ just for that router? Or was there more included in that price jump? Seems a little bit high to me, for something build like a MPCNC, with unsupported shafts as linear guides and such.
For shorter transient stuff you can design a good wet sump that comes close and it's dead simple. Not good enough for long sweepers, however I got around a long sweeper with mine without losing pressure pulling about 1G (not great, I know, but if you saw what I was in you'd be impressed). You did the right thing going dry sump, but LOL @ the costings :-D
With two pumps, the oil collection points should be diagonally, for example: first - left side in the front of the engine, second - right side in the rear of the engine. This way You have all normally-possible oil displacements covered. Have you thought about using electrically powered pumps? - this might be the easiest way. Great video, as usual. Sorry for my English. Good Luck with the project!
That was might fun ! Doing the exact same kind of stupid stuff on an aircraft engine (dry sump, plus oil cooler, ...) and I can definitely relate. An fittings are expensive but think that for a DIYer they are very valuable because they are so modular. you can always find an adapter or fitting that will work for you and mate with the other fittings. Plus when you have a lathe and mill, it is quite easy to make your very own special adapters when all else fails !
I'd say the magic bullet to make a simple dry sump system is to fill the space inside the crankcase first. Then you could have a simple, gravity powered drain in the sump. If all the available space for oil inside the crankcase is full, the only place extra oil can go is out through that drain. Irrespective of which way is up.
My senior project in college was to turbocharge our cbr600 fsae car. We managed to make the exact mistakes you did initially AND MORE. The most confusing decision we made was to cast our own custom aluminum oil pan. Glad to see someone doing it "right".
Great channel, been there, done that, got the T shirt, quite literally, it arrived in the post a few weeks ago. I too believe that……..why pay good money for a known working bolt on option when you can spend twice as much making it yourself. Having just made an aluminium dry sump tank I can move onto the sump…..once the burns have healed. All hail the algorithm.
Boss. I thought I was in my own garage working on my own car project for a sec. If you ever need a Mastercool hard line bender for the iso bubble flares, let me know. I am in LA. Also thanks for the 3d scan app idea; I need a water reservoir for my intercooler and I don't have much space. All brilliant.
The Algorithm must be appeased! Truly awesome discussion of prevention of oil starvation techniques, 2020- you have explained much of the mystery in less than 11 minutes- maybe the dry sump makers will reduce prices to inhibit gifted amateurs from further disrupting their market! I'm not sure you couldn't have built your own two stage pump section by combining the drive section of the OEM water pump- for having forgotten your college CNC classes, you do pretty good, sir! By the way, a tiny bleed hole between the two scavenge sections would have assured both sections stayed oil wet, even when one was pick up dry, loosing only a tiny portion of scavenge pumps capacity to protect itself. On a further note- was there some reason why you didn't consider the 1300 cc V4 from the Honda St 1300? It is a bit bigger, designed to pull a heavy police bike load and has the "fore and aft configuration" to suit your usage- additionally, another YT content producer, as well as Locost 7 forum member put one in an N600 Honda sedan- very similar to your car. Just a stupid question from a child who didn't go to engineering school! FWIW, I rate the project and the edit at Awesome; Level Seven or higher, just so the Algorithm knows! FR
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
D-d-d-dang! There's no WAY I could ever afford to save that much money. You truly are an inspiration. All hail
This is exactly summing up the frustration from a lot of DIY projects, Love it!
Almost couldn't take it. My pain still is too fresh.
It pretty much sums up why I have projects and not just stuff I need to fix / build. Stuff I need to fix gets done the proper way and projects get done in the most ludicrously over complicated way. There's not many problems in life that can't be solved by a bloody minded stubbornness and a refusal to face reality... And an Arduino.
But it's not frustration it's the adventure of going on the unknown path that's the fun part.
Sure you can just go buy the parts and they'll just fit together... But you wouldn't have an ISO grid on the bottom.
I feel seen and attacked at the same time.
@@TravisFabel it’s more like going on the unknown path thru bushes with sharp thorns parallel to well maintained paved road ;)
Matt, your honesty and attention to detail and comedic timing are incredible. Your videos are not just entertaining, they are uplifting.
now that you mention it, your right. lol
I lost it at $100 bill being lit on fire
@@mr_voron relax, only about 4 cents was destroyed
Sounds like my style of DIY money saving adventures. Looks great though ;)
*IM 52* when I got to about 48 I stopped saving money on projects - I have saved SO MUCH money since I stopped saving money...
What I do now is I buy the professional thing I need - my eyes water at the cost every time - but at the end of the year I have MONEY. Actual spare money.
definitely is the way i do my projects
I'm definitely going to have to use that fractional logic on my future projects. Just tell people (the wife) that you spent a fraction of the price of a new thing by building it your self, and don't bother with the trivial detail that your fraction is an improper one.
Just show her the material costs. Yes, dear, this lump of aluminium, couple sheets of metal, fasteners and hoses were only a few dollars! The legit setup would be over $1000, I have saved much money! Please do not look at the thousands of dollars in tools, machinery and lost time surrounding those dollars.
Reminds me of ToT, why buy something for $10 when you can make it yourself for free, and a full machine shop, and $30 in materials
@@helplmchoking But if I have to something similar again, then I already have the tools for it. But for the most time, these types of projects tend to need different tools each time 😂
I look forward to uploads from this channel more than any other on RUclips regardless of what the project is. As an engineer and lover of tinkering and working on cars I love the way you talk through a project and are humble and sarcastic about the entire design process. Cant wait to see what's next!
MacroMachines is a good one, too. Dude is building a model a roadster from basically scratch. 95% of the car he built. Dude even sandcasted his own pedals. I think the only things he didn't make is the frame, axles, wheels. He even made a plate to bolt a jag I6 to a model a transmission.
Agreed on the fave channel. Quite sadly, I'm constantly checking RUclips for his latest post
The best way to spend money is starting out planning to save money! Lovely video, Matt!
This entire thing is maybe the best piece of deadpan comedy I've seen in years.
Telling mom hello slayed me
Matt's gonna do a budget dry sump from repurposed OEM parts - goddamn, finally! I keep seeing people on GRM saying they wanna do this but it never happens for one reason or another.
It's here! Can't wait to see my boy Matt finally crack this thing - and along the way maybe I'll learn why the commercial dry sump systems are so expensive, what the tricks and compromises are for a locost/DIY approach. Oh, this is gonna be great!
Oh.
Q. How can I make a small fortune building cheap racecars?
Matt: Well, start with a large fortune...
Great!
"To become a millionaire by racing cars, start out as a billionaire."
As an aerospace guy, the nodes never line up with anything. You are forgiven.
Matt, that was brilliant. The whole idea of a "..fraction of the cost..." is genus. A fraction where the the numerator is many times a multiple of the denominator is a "..is too, a legit fraction.." . You must be an engineer, because you clearly have an engineer's understanding of mathematics.
I love this channel, it's so accurate.
I'm about to "save" some money rebuilding the transmission in my "low miles" Econoline. I think I'll save about a thousand by buying all of the specialty tools first, and then save the rest by upgrading to a stage 1 rebuild kit so I don't have to save all of this money a second time.
Did you ever get your Econoline Transmission fixed?
I loved this episode. I knew immediately that fraction was going to be an improper one. But hey, I feel the pain on this one. Thanks for showing how this stuff really goes on projects!
6:20 The way Matt phrased "The Better Idea" solution puts so much joy in my mechanic's heart
Oh dear... I suggest that you look at a 1950's British motorcycle dry sump system. It is a reciprocating double pump driven by a crankshaft cam, the large bore pump is the scavenge, the smaller one is feed from the tank (located higher than the engine) to the engine. Simple but effective. The sump in those engines was truly dry. It also has the added advantage of keeping the oil cooler.
Don't count the cost of tools in your budget, you can and will use it on other projects ;)
Yea yeah! Hopefully 😂! All hail mighty algorithm :)
That’s what I keep telling myself…
Matt:
You can use plain-old oil pumps if you weep a tiny bit of pressurized engine oil back to their inlets. One drop of oil every second and they will run at 7000 rpm pumping otherwise dry air forever. (I tested - it works)
On engine number 3... :) Can you make just the motor tilt like a motorcycle as it goes to the corners?
I'm envisioning hydraulic cylinders
maybe hang the engine with chains inside the engine bay? And uh some sketchy flex shaft that delivers power to the back?
I can see it!!!
Porsche style active engine mounts? That'd be sick, not sure how much the rest of the drivetrain would like it though
@@GNARBOSS rope shafts thick ones
@@helplmchoking that Porsche dynamic dampening motor mount looks 😎 and it's definitely a downsized version of what I was thinking
Super fast mat is fairly smart, he could probably figure out the degrees it needed to rotate around the crank axis at maximum lateral Gs in order to maintain oil pressure. But I think 60° would be enough
This reminds me so much of Austin Kleon's life of a project. You always start with "It's the best idea ever!" only to eventually fall into into the abyss. But by then, you're already too involved to just drop it, so you keep on pushing until you reach the "It sucks, but it's not as bad as I thought" moment.
Yeah next time just order the daily pan scan it CNC it and return it. Just don't sell it and you probably won't get a law suit.
Looking forward to learning how the air-oil separator is made! 99% of my automotive technical knowledge is from reading. Finally Matt is showing the actual parts and how they work. Thanks Matt!
i might be wrong but the tall reservoir probably acts as a air separator in itself.
Inlet at top tangential to circumference. You get cyclonic separation
I could be wrong (I'm probably wrong) but I think it works similarly to a swirl pot, which Matt talked about in one of his Tesla Jag cooling system videos
@@zackrogers9334 You are not wrong. Swirl Pot. I had a dry-sump in my previous Caterham. The reservoir looked just like a supersized version of the OEM swirl-pot in in the cooling system of my previous Lotus Europa.
The oil pan designing part reminds me of many of my own projects. I will design things to be as efficient as I can until I remember that I don't need to add complexity to chase diminishing returns for performance that doesn't matter.
Yes yes I enjoyed your video, mostly beause I have made a few dry sumps myself. A few were made by the engine itself by being old and using all the oil in the wet sump until it was a dry sump, others were made the easy way such as throwing too much money at the project, which looks much like youre currantly doing, others by combining used oil pumps simmilar to what you had in mind until you chickened out because they had no bearings etc. Just for the records, these pumps work fine when used as scavenge pumps as the never run completely dry. Think about it and you´ll discover why. Thanks for the fun vid🙂
Sorry for the late comment, but I can't, for the life of me, find out why those pumps wouldn't get oil starved and seize...
@@tojiroh They did.
@@h-j.k.8971 They did what?
@@tojiroh sieze uup
@@h-j.k.8971 that's not what you said above. You said they could be used as scavenge pumps since they wouldn't run completely dry, and you didn't elaborate any further. Do you have anything to add?
Would it have been easier/cheaper to do an electric scavenging pumps? Redundancy (2 or 3 separately powered pumps) + put some magnetic encoders and flow meters on them to flash a big red light at you if they stop spinning.
I would also suggest some sort of oil level sensor in the tank.
Most of the electric pumps I've seen suggested for this purpose (for dry sumps and remote mount turbos) are just relabeled transfer pumps, and aren't designed to move oil at operating temperature and will eventually fail..
Though I'd be very interested to see some are actually suitable!
@@MeatPoPsiclez - I'm sure there are some food-grade hot oil pumps, but now you're back in Priceytown.
@@MeatPoPsiclez Sort of reminds me of those "electric turbos" that were sold on eBay and the like. 🤭
Feels like a window into my garage. ALL HAIL THE ALGORITHM!
Awesome video! That's usually how it goes whenever I say "I'll build it myself and save money." HAHA
My mom said to tell you "Hi" back.
This was clearly the most bugdet friendly way forward, I wouldn't expect anything less!
I’m dry dumping a 1600hp LS right now. It’s the easiest block to plumb I’ve ever done. I even have to make the oil pan from scratch. Good info for beginners.
But look on the bright side; all those tools will pay for themselves after the next 25 conversions....
Matt - I repurposed a Chrysler mini-van power steering pump; drove it it from a rear transaxle half shaft with a V-belt like old NASCAR. The output directs a jet of transaxle lube right at the ring and pinion mesh of my upside-down and running backwards Corvair transaxle, used in a Kelmark adapter kit with an SBC - works great; looks great; was free plus my time.
Mom says "hi" right back at you!
Did the same with hydraulic scavenge pumps and a 2 gallon reservoir, feeding a 160psi HV oil pump. I used this on a 74 Volvo rally car build in the mid 1980's. I actually stopped using the Volvo redblock 2.0L and went with a full tilt 305 Rpm build, with the homemade drysump. In hindsight I believe I killed the Redblocks from my own errors and inexperience back then in the 80's. I kept melting pistons...but it never once threw a rod or hurt the crank. Those Reds are F1 quality castings!
The oil pan looks awesome. 👍
Great video. Just what I was looking for.
I have a 98 Pathfinder 3.3L with a similar oil pump. It was an elderly couple's for 20 years. I don't think they used it much. Low miles, 6,000 a year average, and likely wasn't driven hard ever. I think they let oil sit in it and maybe their mechanic put snake oil in it as a sales pitch. There was gummy honey-colored stuff on the refill cap.
Something is causing this Pathfinder to knock at startup for 3-4 seconds and then between 1,800 and 3,300 RPM. If coasting between 1800 and 3300, it ceases. I think I caught rod bearing wear early and I replaced them. And checked the mains. Mains were good. Two rods had mild wear. No slack or slope in anything. Metal flakes stopped appearing. But still the knock between those RPM. It runs perfectly, otherwise. And the body and interior is like new. So it's a nice one I'd like to keep long-term.
What do you think about this idea?
If the oil isn't changed well can the valve system in the pump stick or malfunction and cause oil pressure to be insufficient? The pressure is 100% consistently poor at startup for 3 seconds and under load between 1800 to 3300 RPM. Makes no sense, this loss of pressure at fixed time, other than faulty pump.
I know there is also a pan gasket leak at the front and back. I thinned the oil as an experiment to see if pressure/noise changed and oil began quickly dripping from both ends of the oil pan when it was at warm idle. I thinned the oil 50% with motor flush, which is basically kerosene. I drained out two quarts and put in 2 quarts cleaner. So I have to pull the pan anyways to fix those leaks, so might as well pull inspect and replace the pump as well. Also have to check timing as well and swap all those parts as their age is unknown. The pressure problem was present before the leaks were noted. So the big leaks are new and the problem is the exact same.
Do you know of a good oil pump replacement video of my motor or very similar? I found a timing kit one, but no oil pump.
I love cost effective DIYs! 👍🏻
All summed up at 8:22.
And yet I still don’t learn…
You & I think a lot alike. I really appreciate what it takes to create your own anything. Anyone can just shell out the dough, but to mostly create it yourself is cool, even if it doesn't necessarily save $ in the short-term. You'll use the tools again, or some friend will need to borrow etc. Plus you understand every facet of your oil system. Great job!
Love your videos, all hail Al Goors Rythem.
I saw someone mentioned your name on another platform so, I looked you up, I very glad I did! People always say spend twice as much and twice the time to diy!
Thanks for your videos dude!! This was the channel that got me into engineering
One of the nicest do it yourself dry sump systems I've seen yet. Keep pushing on that string and finish it up, it looks great.
I don’t think I’ve ever laughed that much at a car build video, fantastic work!
It's so enjoyable to watch, timing humeur. Love it.
wow... is that going to space?
Or you could buy Chevy LS oil pumps that are driven off the crank & make an adapter to fit your crank. The pumps are around $40. You would need to mill some adapter plates to simulate the engine block surfaces.
An adapter to mate with a CB Honda engine??
Been looking to make a diy drysump for a while now
I've watched this vid a few times now and it got me thinking about accumulators again. I've used oil accumulators in the past in streetcars where I couldn't use a deep or widened pan(68 bigblock Dart, you feel me?), I've wondered if the problem of the rapid drop in pressure as the oil is pushed out of the cylinder could be dealt with by having the outlet from the accumulator in the oilpump pickup itself where the oil would be immediately pressurized by the pump instead of introducing the oil into the engine downstream from the pump. It doesn't address the issue of the finite amount of oil in the cylinder but you would have more reliable pressure as long as it lasted. I can think of a couple of "simple" ways to route the line to the pickup that are something less than a colossal p.i.t.d. but never really needed more than tthe accumulator could give me so never explored the idea. I have a Lowcost w Mazda 12a power that I've been building since the 2nd Bush administration though and the idea of a big frantic bike engine sometimes seems like a good way to delay completion till the NEXT Bush administration so I started thinking about it again. How many seconds of full pressure oil do you think would have been necessary to avoid blowing up the mill you blew up? All hail
how much amps does the water pump draw? it'll be interesting to see at which rpm the electricals will hit 13.5v with the headlights, blinkers and water pump on
I don’t know, I might need to put in a PWM controller that’s based on coolant temperature rather than just running the pump at full blast all the time. We’ll see
@@SuperfastMatt It would be interesting to see! I am looking at converting my 1991 Jaguar XJ6 to electic fans and yes, on-off control is simpler, but pwm would be nice!
Matt, I'm neither looking or subscribing (in general, not personal), and I still get (and watch) your vids (including old ones) in my feed.
Praise the algorithm
Matt I have to say these are my absolute favourite videos on RUclips atm. Quick question though…
How can you afford this stuff😭
Patreon!
Just barely, that's how.
Matt can only afford a fraction of it
Think of it as optimizing the amount of money you have
@@davidbrown8365 82/25 last I saw.
Pure gold.
Had no idea so many products were available to fit. Kits!
The iso = space junk joke was killer.
Next is some gold electrical contacts and solder?
Keep up the videos, just pure amazing content!
My buddy Jesse Britsen founded BRD back in 2008. He builds dry sump systems for all the popular bike engines. We worked together at west race cars. We built a really quality D sports racer. All bike engine powered sports racers. We also were a manufacturer for IMSA lites. A feeder series for American lemans. We both were crew chiefs on the cars for many years. So we are well versed in the issues of keeping a bike engine well oiled in a sports racer with massive downforce and super high G loads. Some guys had decent success with gated wet sump pans. But it was very track dependent. Ac usurps were a joke on F1000 and sports racers. Might be fine on a track day car. My racing days are over. But I am building a Mini Cooper for a customer. That has a George dean built hyabusa. With a BRD drysump and quaife drive box. I just wanted to share my experience of racing motorcycle powered races cars. I love your s600! I’ve always wanted to build a car for myself one day! The S600 is so right for a modern moto power plant! 😁
You could call the Dry Sump system “dead pan” to suit your humour 😐👍🏻🇦🇺
Mom says hi too.
Thanks for the inspiration and keep on trucking!
Flawless victory, now you can amortise off the investment made in this project against the potential future certainty of buying a 3rd and 4th engine, the labour of having someone else fit it and more! Plus whenever you use the CNC machine you can start moving the cost onto that one's bill. Soon this project will be in negative spend and actually earning you theoretical money. Not real money of course. Thats already gone.
:D
For about 2 weeks I've been binge watching all of your videos. Thank you
For some reason, I don’t get mad when Matt goes way over budget, any other channel I think I’d mind
I started watching this video with the knowledge that spending slightly more than what it would cost to buy it would also count as an improper fraction... So the ending was not unexpected
I know you already spent money fixing your issue, but i have a Locost 7 with R1 engine and the way i fixed the oiling issue was very different and a fraction of the cost you spent. I used a section of PVC in the center where the pickup pulled oil from to create a skinny cylinder area in the center of the oil pan for the oil pump to pickup oil from, then using silicone i poured in the oil pan filling all the area around the PVC pipe up to the top of the oil pan mating surface. This leaves the only area for oil to sit inside the oil pan is inside that cylinder cavity the PVC pipe left behind. Then i removed the PVC pipe and trimmed the silicone to smoothen out any defects from the pour. Then on the side that is facing the front of the car i welded in a 1 inch bung, which i have copper tubing connected to wrapped around the bottom of the engine at the level of the OEM pan oil level giving me capacity. The engine's oil pump pulls oil from the skinny cylinder void in the oil pan to feed the engine. The oil draining back into the oil pan is forced to drain into that small cavity in the center of the oil pan since the silicone is filling the rest of the oil pan area. The excess oil via gravity drains into the copper pipe to give the engine oil capacity, which gravity is constantly trying to drain back into the oil pan. When the engine is turned off the oil drains into the copper pipe to maintain the stock oil level. I placed the bung for the spillover point at the side of the engine facing the front of the car, so under acceleration the oil in the copper pipe is given advantage to drain into the oil pan easier. This has worked perfectly for me. I did have to relocate the drain plug since silicone covered the original one. The way i change oil and check oil level is purely by ball valve. On the copper tubing that wraps around the bottom of the engine. I have a bracket holding the end of that tubing at the level the oil level needs to be at, so i just open that ball valve and pour oil into the engine and when it starts dripping out of the ball valve its at level and i shut it off to seal the oil system.
Fair play, I would have just gone super cheap and baffled the sump with a horizontal plate.
It's what we do in all our race cars made with street car engines. Particularly important when running a formerly FWD traverse engine RWD longitudinal...still overfill those about a quart as drainback under extended Gs is not quite what was designed from the factory.
Matt, Nice start on a dry sump, couple of comments, 1. Don't use NPT [National Pipe Thread] fittings, they leak, vibrate out and it looks like you tapped them to deep as the fittings look loose. 2. Electric water pumps are less than optimum, there is a rule of thumb that the water flow should be 10 gpm/100 hp so you need at least 20 gpm but electric pumps are rated at zero outlet pressure so any pressure required to push the water through the engine will reduce the actual amount of water going through the engine. I see you selected a Davis Craig unit which is good, as they are the only water pump people I have found that provide flow/pressure charts for their pumps so I would use that to select the pump. I will be interested to see your oil tank design, do you plant to fab yourself or buy one?
I haven’t had any problems with NPT fittings since I started using Loctite 545. I didn’t show the fittings fully tightened with Loctite in the video, but that’s how they’re in there now. I’ll probably fabricate a oil reservoir, with some help from SendCutSend.
Clicked on the video 17 seconds after it posted. Got two 15 second unskippables.
Excuse me, Sir. Do you have a moment to talk about Brave Browser?
I have the video set to skippable ads, like always. do you usually get unskipable ads?
Depending on the platform you're using, install AdBlock Plus or similar - I never see ads in Matt's videos.
I think I wasn’t clear, 😅. I was just excited to see the next video. Always looking forward to seeing the next stage of any of the projects!
I was hoping you would show this vid as a conversion of your stock pan into a sump tube setup. This one, while really nice, is a lot more than most mechs can do with our rudimentary tools. My application is a Subaru swap into a Beetle, and the sheetmetal pan is way low on the Subi motor. Sheetmetal is much easier to weld fittings into for this, somehow.
FOR THE ALGORITHM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great information about setting up a dry sump system. I have a friend that is building a 67 Midget racecar. He has been looking at the accumulator type. Yours seems so much better. Thanks for the friendy tip.
My mum says hi back 👋
Matt, love the swinging oil pickup, not seen that before. What about using the Cosworth Subaru Oil Pan Baffle system with the rubber flapper valves? Lets the oil in but not out.
710, yaaaas
Fantastic, as usual....
Oil pressure sensor, check the data/instruction sheet!!!
Fitted a similar sensor for keeping an eye on fuel pressure (had a spare hole in the dash for a gauge...🙄), drilled and tapped the fuel rail, stood back to admire, just so happened to notice the instructions that came with the sender, and says DO NOT MOUNT DIRECTLY ON ENGINE, VIBRATION WILL DAMAGE THE UNIT.....
'jsmcortina' of megasquirt fame, has recently damaged an lm7 through low oil pressure (but no oil pressure warning light), so there's code now, to bring on the oil warning light, depending on pressure vs rpm, although, maybe why you've fitted the sensor, rather than low pressure switch......🙄🤔
My mom says hi Matt
Rebuilt an old Nascar 3 stage for a 4 cylinder and got used tanks and such. It was cheaper, but not by a huge factor for sure. I guess it helped that no one was still producing the kits for the engine I had.
When you say “a fraction”, do you mean like 3/1th of the cost.
fractions can be greater than one
82/25th of the cost
10:07
@@lewa_j - I commented prior to watching, it was a pure fluke that I chose a fraction greater than one. I also like to eat 3/1 of a normal portion of food ;-)
My dad was building a race car that had to conform to period specs. A dry sump wasn't an option, so he built a set of 1-way gates in the oil pan so that on turns the oil could not slosh to the side. Worked really well, but took a while to make and get just right.
Who's that Al Gorithm person anyway???
No, no, no. It's Al Gore's jazz band, The Al Gore Rhythms.
@@A.J.1656 😄😅😂😅😄
3:40 Downhills should be considered to
I love this, was planning to do something diy for my K20, in terms of oil supply, given the fact that i'm on a tight budget. This helps a LOT.
A cheap source of tall, thin tanks are fire extinguishers. Bonus if you have one of the recalled Kidde ones with the plastic handle since they'll replace them for free, and they don't care if you forget to send them back the old ones. They're made of weldable aluminum, you can buy an aluminum weld on radiator cap for about $15, and you can get weld on AN fittings for pretty cheap too.
Video of my fire extinguisher surge tank build if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/3O7MwvfSPqE/видео.html
@@colindowns3691 Oh man, this video is a good one!! :D
I love the 710 descriptor. There is a joke: a new driver gets a low oil light, calls his dad to ask about it. His dad says buy a quart, take off the oil cap and dump it in there. The kid cannot find the oil cap. 'dad, all I see is the 710 cap.'
love the humor on top of all the awesome stuff you do
The CNC machining, of the base plate, is to aid heat loss by increasing the surface area. Are you adding a magnet to catch bits!! ?
Back in motorsports school we tried to use a multi section hydraulic pump from a commercial application. We sized one with a similiar rotational volume, got it cheap off ebay. There were several small modifications that we made to the pump to make sure things stayed "in place", it actually worked pretty well. It weighed A LOT, but it was cool to try it.
3380$ just for that router?
Or was there more included in that price jump?
Seems a little bit high to me, for something build like a MPCNC, with unsupported shafts as linear guides and such.
For shorter transient stuff you can design a good wet sump that comes close and it's dead simple. Not good enough for long sweepers, however I got around a long sweeper with mine without losing pressure pulling about 1G (not great, I know, but if you saw what I was in you'd be impressed). You did the right thing going dry sump, but LOL @ the costings :-D
With two pumps, the oil collection points should be diagonally, for example: first - left side in the front of the engine, second - right side in the rear of the engine. This way You have all normally-possible oil displacements covered. Have you thought about using electrically powered pumps? - this might be the easiest way. Great video, as usual. Sorry for my English. Good Luck with the project!
That was might fun ! Doing the exact same kind of stupid stuff on an aircraft engine (dry sump, plus oil cooler, ...) and I can definitely relate. An fittings are expensive but think that for a DIYer they are very valuable because they are so modular. you can always find an adapter or fitting that will work for you and mate with the other fittings. Plus when you have a lathe and mill, it is quite easy to make your very own special adapters when all else fails !
I'd say the magic bullet to make a simple dry sump system is to fill the space inside the crankcase first. Then you could have a simple, gravity powered drain in the sump. If all the available space for oil inside the crankcase is full, the only place extra oil can go is out through that drain. Irrespective of which way is up.
Seriously the best channel on RUclips. All Hail the Algorithm!!!
My senior project in college was to turbocharge our cbr600 fsae car. We managed to make the exact mistakes you did initially AND MORE. The most confusing decision we made was to cast our own custom aluminum oil pan. Glad to see someone doing it "right".
Great channel, been there, done that, got the T shirt, quite literally, it arrived in the post a few weeks ago. I too believe that……..why pay good money for a known working bolt on option when you can spend twice as much making it yourself. Having just made an aluminium dry sump tank I can move onto the sump…..once the burns have healed. All hail the algorithm.
Yes I did! and you fully talked me out of a dry sump .. buying the OEM pan and pump instead - expensive, yes .. but so much cheaper .. thank you!
'Technically a fraction of the cost' got me good. Great project Matt, thanks for bringing us along for the comedic journey.
I know shit about cars, but you are fantastic, its nice to see someone so passionate and funny at the same time ;)
Cheaper to give oil pan larger capacity and a few gates/ doors. With an accusump insurance back up.
I've seen dry sumps with accusump back ups.
As always, I click cause the topic interests me, but I stay cause the commentary cracks me up.
All in all, best way to learn!
Keep it up, Matt!
Accusumps work. Klever to Buy a large enough one though . Dry sumps inevitably have Pump issues... needing continuing maintenance /vigilance.
Boss. I thought I was in my own garage working on my own car project for a sec. If you ever need a Mastercool hard line bender for the iso bubble flares, let me know. I am in LA. Also thanks for the 3d scan app idea; I need a water reservoir for my intercooler and I don't have much space. All brilliant.
I love your videos lol awesomeness and your spending habits are perfectly angled with your reasoning... Wonderful mind jelly.
"Space stuff" 🤣 You're sense of humor and voice over delivery is right up my alley.
I love the fun commentary and condense editing of your videos
Always enjoy your videos, and your narration is the funniest of any car build channel; very consistent LOLs.
The Algorithm must be appeased! Truly awesome discussion of prevention of oil starvation techniques, 2020- you have explained much of the mystery in less than 11 minutes- maybe the dry sump makers will reduce prices to inhibit gifted amateurs from further disrupting their market!
I'm not sure you couldn't have built your own two stage pump section by combining the drive section of the OEM water pump- for having forgotten your college CNC classes, you do pretty good, sir! By the way, a tiny bleed hole between the two scavenge sections would have assured both sections stayed oil wet, even when one was pick up dry, loosing only a tiny portion of scavenge pumps capacity to protect itself.
On a further note- was there some reason why you didn't consider the 1300 cc V4 from the Honda St 1300? It is a bit bigger, designed to pull a heavy police bike load and has the "fore and aft configuration" to suit your usage- additionally, another YT content producer, as well as Locost 7 forum member put one in an N600 Honda sedan- very similar to your car. Just a stupid question from a child who didn't go to engineering school!
FWIW, I rate the project and the edit at Awesome; Level Seven or higher, just so the Algorithm knows! FR