The Problem With Traditional Archery
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- A video essay on the nuances behind traditional archery - and specifically what it is and how it is accepted - or not.
00:00 - Introduction
01:12 - Definitions
02:02 - Heritage
03:55 - Asiatic
05:40 - Rules
10:07 - Conclusion
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I like these more philosophical style videos that you're creating lately. Showing up at an indoor range dominated by compound archers with my Tartar bow did indeed raise a bunch of eyebrows. One guy even joked why I needed to bring so many arrows until I shot all 6 in the time it took him to shoot 2. By the end of the session several folks came up to me and were very curious about the equipment and style so that was a positive.
Seriously, I have always associated "wood" with traditional archery and modern materials such as aluminum and carbon with "modern archery" (including stabilizers, etc.). Anyway the goal is to have fun. Have a nice day and take care !!
So did a Clubmate of me. He used to tease me that my bow is not traditional because of the Aluminium Riser. Well i digged a little and found the earliest take-down recurve had metal risers until they managed to get the wooden ones sturdy enough to take the stress (2 years later). So technically the Metal riser take-down is more traditional than the full wooden ones.
Prior to the development of compound bows that was the exact distinction between "traditional" and "modern" archery. When compounds came around, wooden bows were considered "primitive" archery, and things like fiberglass recurves were then called "traditional".
You are welcome to your antiquated and obscure opinion so long as you aren’t telling others what they are or aren’t.
@@Lost_Hwasal Obviously you have understood absolutely nothing from my comment which says that deep down I don't care, just do archery. A bit like I don't care about the opinion of a troll on RUclips who as soon as he sees a comment with a lot of likes on it, he feels obliged to comment negatively below.
Traditional Archery Australia embraces the Asiatic style of bow and has a huge following. At one of our events last year the Asiatic class was the biggest number of archers. James Murray Vice President Whitw Rose Archery Klub Victoria.
Loving these recent videos - some really well reasoned, insightful arguments, plus some laugh-out-loud humour 😂
I just really enjoy your open loop shot process.
All thought, no thinking.
I can’t even see the transfer from your aiming process to surprise release.
You’re videos have been good recently…very appreciative and grateful for you’re work
I completely agree. I just want to shoot man, and I'm loving traditional archery so far! Manchu, Korean, Turkish, Arab, Longbow, modern longbow, hunting recurve.. I still want to try them all! ^^
Exactly, there's no point in limiting things, archery is a beautiful practice full of diversity and history
@@doppelminds1040 There is a point of limiting when it comes to competition. You need the fixed rules and classes to keep it interesting. Yes i would love to shoot carbon arrows on my Korean bow but the rules state only wood/bamboo (wich is stupid but ok). You need to even the playing field and i think our archery association did a pretty good job to keep the classes interesting and distinct.
I find there are three ways of desribing the kits and styles and they're based on whether you're talking about:
- shop categories
- Association classifications
- Your kit and use intentions
For example... I like to shelf shoot a recurve and appreciate carbon ILF and metal or wood risers. I just so happen to like gloves and no sights. Annoyingly the manufacturers might make a good riser for that or balance it needing a front weight (because of barebow as a competitive style). I have to drscribe my set-up to meet association rules, but dont compete as its not my bag.
So i agree with you - fuck the rules and shoot what you want!
This a fascinating subject though, i follow a USA man called Dash Render and he uses our Warbows which mainly are150lb upwards and has a very good understanding of that tradition in our history. But then you have Japan Samurai who's main weapon was a bow, and to this day its still a very respected tradition they do, they do their own games which replicate the old Samurai on horse, same way we do our nights Cosplay, and Europe do it to. So yes its very difficult to actually pin point what is deemed as "Tradition" depending where you are from. We see tradition as wooden long bow that shoot thick wood arrows. I guess in America the real tradition would stem from native Indian's who used a short long bow. I think it would be great if world wide competition had sub classes from each region of the world, instead of just 1. I honestly wouldn't care if i was shooting with you in a private competition and you chose what you deemed as your tradition, i think it would actually be fun to. Some of the clubs in uk very much hold their noses up to a man shooting a 160lb warbow, when the reality is its our tradition. But i would rather not argue semantics, because each hold their very special time in their history.
Oh I think you mentioned NFAA longbow wood, longbow carbon. Last year for competition I shot both for club points. Very few of us wood arrow shooters as you mentioned but more in carbon/aluminum group. And yes American longbow. Then in other competitions I’ll shoot primitive with my English yew longbow with mandatory wood arrows (bamboo or natural materials are allowed).
I feel like you should have included Native Americans when talking about traditional archery in the Americans. Other wise this was a very informative video. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge with us.
Maybe I'm saving that for a Part 3.
@@NUSensei
😂
@@NUSensei gotta farm that content! haha
At the 1920 olympic games local traditional bow shooting was the game, but they set the rules for what is archery competition after that
I think it's amusing that at 5:07 the first bow you see is the Ragim Taiga, which is the only asiatic-esque bow I know of that has a shelf. On the "wrong" side as well I think.
Anyway, I'll need to de-yankify my archery. Thanks!
100% agree, screw the rules, shoot what you want.
I go everywhere here in SoCal and I proudly state I use thumb draw lol it's been getting far more attention lately which is great. I've won several local tournaments and usually dominate my local indoor leagues lol (20 yards, average of 250~/300)
I still have to explain a lot of things though, unfortunately my buddy gets more of the people that think its cheating and I'm never there to defend us :T
I also read up on the world archery rules for it and I found that rule to be SUPER lazy. Thumb rings are not allowed because they can easily be modified to be release aids? That's a lazy rule, we all would have been better off if it was worded more like "Thumb rings are allowed, but only if you use your fingers to close the hook and not the ring itself or a modified ring to do it"
I don't even want a specific 'division' for horsebows, I just want to be included in the basic recurve off the shelf division (here in the states it usually ROTS, Trad Recurve, Barebow Recurve, FSLR and longbow)
I've always been confused about the whole "trad" division, it's basically barebow, but you can use a stabilizer and you can string walk too (no face walking in either division over here from what I remember) I really don't think the trad division should be its own thing anymore, since it's barely and I mean -barely- different from barebow. Maybe they should change it; just a simple ruling; Traditional recurve, is now historical recurve, no shelf is allowed, you can shoot what you want (including string walking and face walking)
I guess I just wish world archery knew what was really 'best' for the sport, they're excluding a style that has a much longer history, because 3 finger archery just happened to be popular at the time of creation of the modern sport.
Makes you wonder how archery would look like now, if it started with thumb draw instead.
If that's the reason for banning the thumbring, then they should've ban modifying thumbrings. banning thumbring outright is like banning finger glove, it's painful to shoot without those
@@musthaf9 I really wish I had kept the pictures from back when I was using a thumb glove, it had a reinforced thumb section.
That thing still hurt at 45#, callous always ripped off after 90 days and I had to wait a week before the skin there was thick enough for me to even try shooting.
It's actually how I debunk most people that say it's cheating "here, pull my bow with your thumb and index, no ring, tell me; is that enjoyable? oh it hurts? can you guess why it hurts?" Lol If I tried to shoot as much as I do now without a ring, my right thumb would be useless.
Great video, Sensei! Makes me want to try asiatic archery
These last few videos have been great!
I always call them "modern recurves" when i give courses, looks like i got that right, ha! Anyways, also as you pull a string back and shoot an arrow into the target, its archery. Screw everything else and just have fun!
When this became an issue in pistol competitions, a group formed the IPSC to separate from Bullseye competition. When IPSC became too much of a game with highly specialized equipment impractical on the street, another group formed a new organization form the IDPA for people to compete with defensive handguns suitable for everyday carry. In some clubs, all three styles of matches are held. Maybe start your own Asiatic style league.
I'll be bringing this up in a future video.
Nice job!
Easy answer (IMO) "traditional" archery is defined by having to contend with "The Archer's Paradox" and does not use sights, stabalizers or systems that lower the imput of muscle power.
At least that how I see it. Use whatever kimd of bow or arrows that you like, but avoid the crutches of more technologically advanced bows that reduce human input or skill.
Have you looked into ABA? They have plenty of rule sets for different trad bows such as longbow, recurve and even has a historical division. There is also different unlimited divisions too opening up what arrows etc can be used . “There is no traditional devision” we have heaps of trad devisions in Australia
NFAA told me I can’t use thumb shooting on my modern recurve bow f the rule I love shooting with my thumb style . Thanks for the video
The bow that you are using at about the minute mark is really beautiful. I love the wood and the lines. What is that?
Harvey Archery Raptor
A “horse bow” o tho k holds the record for distance rn
Well said.
Well said! 😁
For me everything with a cut-out in the riser, that can support an arrow by itself, is not traditional. So a 1 piece hunter/longbow is not traditional.
But I also make a distinction of historical, which is not traditional due to materials used, but "beyond" it ;).
Your thoughts on the thumb ring is interesting.
Because in my country, they intepret thumb ring as the solid ones made from metal, plastic, horn, or anything hard. On the other hand, thumb guard made of soft materials like leathers (shown in your extreme right at @5:44) are allowed. As it considered having the same protection as gloves and/or finger tab in the sense that no hard contact point between the finger/thumb and the string.
Personally I agree with this interpretation, and still we did not see the influx of traditional archers (especially the Asiatic ones) to compete in WA-rule competitions (especially in WA Traditional division) in my country just yet. Perhaps it is because the rule and the interpretation are yet to be widely understood by most archers here.
This basically sums up my experience with archery in Sydney. I went into archery with the aim to learn historical techniques and use bows mainly from the medieval period and antiquity. After joining a club however and switching to these historical bows, I found the culture to be unwelcoming. Not quite to the extent that you describe in the video, for example I was placed in the longbow division for in club competitions and only just learned from your video that I shouldn't have qualified. However, I was the only person in my club to regularly shoot historical bows, let alone traditional bows, with one other club member occasionally shooting historical bows with me. I wouldn't describe the club I went to as mean or intentionally exclusive, but the lack of other historical archers to draw upon for instruction and comradery led to me eventually leaving the club and I haven't used my bows since. Maybe one day I'll find a more historically minded club to join and share in my interests but I do think this is a bit of a problem in the archery community.
In Sydney? Maydaan.
@@NUSensei Thank you, unfortunately they live on the opposite side of Sydney from me, but I'll keep them in mind.
I like your last line .
It's interesting
The power of Americana culture
And 1950/60 north american products
Becoming the English language definition of traditional archery .
Soft power at its finest.
@@lemagicbaguette1917
Lol
Not sure I would call this intentional
Or planned
Soft power .
But the cultural influence or even dominance in the world .
Moving a product concept every where in
A world
Where pretty much every culture has an existing archery history or tradition .
Yes an extension of soft economic power n influence.
Cheers
@@kmarchery never said it was. It just kinda happened because we are everywhere ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@lemagicbaguette1917
Didn't think you
Did
Just
Laughed at the irony .
The other fun bit
Is that north american culture
Is borrowed n blended
From everywhere.
Americana
@@kmarchery come back when you can string coherent thoughts together.
Who puts a stabilizer in a traditional bow? For example: the really traditional Damon Howatt Modell Hunter is build for screwing in a short stabilizer. Traditionally made of some kind of heavy hard wood. But yes, it is a very special traditional hunting bow.
Can I use that olympic tab that has regulations in traditional competitions? I've seen people using it, I didn't think it was correct but I can't find anything in the documentation
You want to watch people freak out? Use the term "Hill style" longbow for anything but an exact replica of Howard Hill's bow.
From where is "Archery, best feeling in whole world", I would appreciate a link, I find it funny :)
Tell me where i can anchor? I dont think so. 😊
Imagine Genghis Khan conquering the world with a set of Cross-X Hurricane Octagon Fletched Carbon Arrows
Yes, but the conquest would be invalidated because the rules don't allow for carbon arrows.
Thumbdraw is a category in the UK National field archery society pretty free and understanding ruleset to be fair
Texas, Old West movies, John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, and skilled AmerInd warriors piqued my first interest in archery. I was maybe 8. Almost 25 years later, my uncle became interested in archery to extend his hunting season. He like compound bows. Always enamored with history, I saw some Fred Bear recurves, and said, "Beautiful wood bows are for me!" (even if modern hunting recurves don't remotely resemble AmerInd bows). I suppose AmerInd tribes weren't much on fiberglass backing either.
I never even heard the term "traditional" archery in the late 90's, early 2000's, but then I didn't interact with other archers. Older (now "vintage") recurves were dirt cheap as most people (in Texas) went to compound bows. Life interrupted, I went overseas, and didn't touch any of my bows for 22 years. Now I am interested again, and everyone is talking "traditional" archery. I don't know what that is exactly.
I just like the looks of recurves and natural wood. I want to be able to shoot one well enough to go hunting with it. I am not opposed to Asian bows and certainly don't wish to diminish the history Korea, Japan, Thailand, or Chinese people. It's just not my area of interest.
I wrote that Reddit piece about historical vs trad archery. The point was to use language to distinguish American trad from things like asiatic or elb clout. Considering the negative reception I got from that and the amount of fanboy brigading that happened I’m not sure how I feel about you using it.
Everybody has an opinion/definition. Unfortunately, there is no One Rule to rule them all and in the darkness bind them... ;) I show up at local 3D shoots and shoot my gear my way. Sometimes my score counts, and sometimes it does not. Everybody knows if I did better or worse than they did. I've taken home a few medals. I took home a few medals in the USAA "Traditional" Division in Trad Longbow and Horsebow/Euro-Asiatic before they dropped it due to the hassle of trying to tell if there were modern materials in some of them.
to me, to my logic, traditional is just a broad word that aquires different meanings across the world. In some country they define trad bow barebows where where I live we tend to call them tech bows. then there is a distinction between hystorical and traditional, and in some cases we also have "foggia" hystorical bows made with modern materials. it's just a mess
different at my country, bow with no shelf is traditional. but any bow with shelves is not traditional bow. its considered barebow and it's now allowed to compete in trad tournament... but weird is shelfless bow can compete in barebow tourney. akward 💆
The whole debate is hilarious. The purpose of a bow is to put holes in stuff. If you can do that with the bow you have, does it really matter how you operate it or how it was made?
I can picture a village back in the day watching the Mongols attack and saying.
"Nope, I'm not dying from that arrow because the dude on the horse shot at me the wrong way. So disrespectful to tradition."
ROFL 😂
(Disclaimer: I don’t even do archery)
To be fair to the debate, as NUSensei pointed out, you have to pick a specific point in time to freeze the rules and build a relative handicap around them compared to what modern “hole makers” can do. Otherwise, the guy with the M109A6 is gonna dominate archery competitions by obliterating the target from 30km away using a laser guided 155mm shell.
@@fi4re I agree with you with in terms of competition. A level playing field, everyone shooting the same type of bow.
But the suggestion that a given style isn't traditional and therefore inferior is the hilariously sad part.
I've just started archery, approaching a month. In short, I have no specific style yet. I'm experimenting with various kinds and finding what works for me. I might very well end up with some kind of weird hybrid. If that's how I can best put holes in stuff, then that's fine with me.
I'm guessing you have an interest in archery despite not practicing it currently.
I started with a dirt cheap ambidextrous bow set from Amazon. Resin limbs, plastic riser etc. $60 Canadian. Not expensive as bows go, but still $60. I've already discovered it's short comings and I'm going to be buying a better quality bow soon. My advice, it's going to be cheaper overall to start with the better and more expensive bow. The bow I'm buying is $110 and doesn't come with all the extras like the first one did, but the accessories were pretty crappy anyway. I'm also going down to a 20 pound draw from a 30. I can draw the 30, but I don't have a lot of time to correct any mistakes before I have to let go.
When it comes to the semantics of "traditional archery" in America the term "Traditional Archery" is in response to the Compound bow in the 1980s. Before the compound bow it was just "archery" but then there had to be something to market and "bring back to tradition" so therefore Bowhunter and various other hunting magazines started to give single string archery the "traditional moniker".
I have never really liked it because I think its a silly way of defining something since in the hunting community the word "tradition" is sacred to hunters regardless of what tool they are using.
But I also think things like "barebow"are silly because barebow is just a stripped down olympic recurve while "trad" bows are truly "bare- bows".
I prefer to go with "trad" as a sort of light jab at traditional just because I dislike the phrase or Ill call it single string or stickbow. I like stickbow because that sort of thing encompasses every thing that is not barebow and more complicated.
However I typically call Asiatic and English Longbows "Historical Archery" and I call modern Traditional Archery " Modern Trad Archery".
Some people do not like it when I say something is historical archery because they argue for "Crossbows" but I guess if you are lugging around a traditional crossbow with a rack loader then by all means rub some dirt on it.
It could be pretty simple if people would just let it be....No sights, no cams, no release aid= traditional archery
I think historical bow shooters are just better archers. A class should be started for people that shoot with a bow string and arrows not hing screwed to the bow nothing tide to the string of the bow.
shelving does not count as traditional.....there, i said it
"Traditional archery is when the target is a Frenchman. Or a Welshman. Or a Scott. Or an Englishman. Or..." - Britons, probably
Only genuine "palintonos" bows should be considered traditional.
All the others are pretenders!
Homer describes Odysseus' bow as "palintonos". The bow is a type of recurved bow, also known as a Cretan. “Palintonos,” which is translated as “bent or stretched backwards.”
Odysseus received his bow from Iphitus, son of Eurytus, after the two men became friends and exchanged gifts. Odysseus traded a sword and a spear for the bow.
Except for Odysseus himself, none possessed the strength needed to string the bow.
Perhaps a whisker biscuit, a sight, and lower draw weights should be allowed
As a long time instinctive trad shooter, ive always considered "traditional archery" to be:
Single string
No sights or stabs
Shot with fingers
Fixed, non adjustable rest
No "string or face walking"
Any other restrictions are simply semantics
Once you start arguing over bow/arrow/string materials, it gets too complicated and becomes a bunch of old men yelling at clouds, which is not good for the sport, IMO
This is why I won't bother with competitions. Too many rules, although understandably so. "Traditional" is not "Historical" is not "barebow" is not "Olympic" is not "compound," etc... I just enjoy archery in its many forms and I'll always gravitate toward a simple bow and arrow. You show me a bow of any kind, and I'll be interested.
F.. the rules 😂😂😂
ATHLETES>>>> just like FENCING ruined SWORDMANSHIP
The labels are the problem. Either you shoot a bow without pulleys or you’re a woman. Everything else is basically semantics
I believe the only traditional archery is done with hunting in mind
Open your mind
I think that's a very wise consideration. What were weapons originally made for? What were they traditionally used for? To hunt, to defend themselves or to wage war.
So be a warrior or hunter in your mind and you are a traditional archer no matter what bow you use.