I’m so glad that they gave you a review copy finally. I value your nuanced and thoughtful analysis and hope this gives you a chance to build up a bunch of extra videos that will do amazing when the new players handbook comes out. This is a win win for D&D. A relatively cheap way to generate buzz that is creator friendly. Keep up the amazing work. Well deserved.
I'm surprised there were absolutely no changes from the playtest. I didn't expect major changes but I thought they'd tinker a little, especially with Topple.
Maybe they realized it can be a bit lackluster and allowed for other interactions. Let's say a Dao Warlock/fighter uses a maul to graze a monster, maybe it can enhance the damage that way now. It won't be OP, but is a small boost to graze that may be enough to down an enemy one turn earlier and guarantee that you can use the bonus damage every turn. Let's say you are a lvl 1 dao warlock/lvl 1 fighter, with 16 str. With a bludgeon graze weapon, your min damage per round would be 5. On a hit, it's 6 - 13 (assuming a d8 weapon). Have not done the math, bit I would say it would average around 10+ DPR consistently. Seems nice for a lvl 2 character and should hold some ground until lvl 10 or so.
I like 10 + Con mod, or Con Score, (add proficiency if they are proficient in Con saves) compared to the attack roll. Targeting their constitution should still be important.
Sounds like someone has been watching the DC20 channel. 😉 I've had these kinds of rules in my games since the early 90s. So, anyone that thinks rolling 5+ over an AC is new, well, it's not. It's been around a long time. And I'm glad the person here who mentioned it likes the idea. Thank you sir!
@helixxharpell it's been in pathfinder for a while. Hitting 10+ with a flail was immediate prone. This proved to be way too strong, though, so it's been nerfed to be like the 5r one, except dex save instead of con.
It clearly had the lowest satisfaction rating and also offered no tactical Advantage unlike every other mastery. They are definitely listening to the results they got from the playtest
Having been playtesting a lot of the "fully released" playtest materials, I have to say that weapon masteries (especially nick!) Have been beloved by my players. Though when we playtested a different campaign and my character had push or graze, my DM hated it with a passion. Bugbear reach with a polearm made it so I can basically ensure that no creature could get close to the party, and graze made them feel like every attack I made was a magic missile for free. I however, had a blast and didn't feel like it was crazy powerful or anything considering the potency of spellcasting *looking at you spirit guardians*
The problem with a Strength Saving Throw is that objects always fail them. So, someone could topple a building with auto-success. A Strength check would make the most sense, being contestable if the target is able and not willing. If not contested (for example, against an object), the DC would be for the DM to decide (as pretty much all DCs are), with the DM considering how easy the target would be to topple (a heavy short statue is going to be difficult, while a light tall one would be easy).
@@Adept_Austin "lying flat, especially face downwards." Linguistically it definitely could, condition wise it wouldn't do much and the Topple mastery states 'creature'. Still, I was talking about what would make sense immersively. If we limit it to creatures then the gameplay mechanic works fine as Con save regardless, because its just a mechanic. An Int save would also work fine. Now, if we talk about optimising the mechanic for saving time, since we have already thrown immersion out the window the best solution would be to just make it happen automatically, no save, once a turn. Balance wise? It is already out of balance with the other masteries, so that ship has sailed - of course, it would be worse if auto-success. The semi-immersive, semi-balance, semi-timesaving mechanical version would probably be a once per turn Strength saving throw.
Cleave actually has changed! It used to be once per round. EDIT: actually now I'm not sure. The D&D beyond text doesn't have "once per turn", but in the preview video that Pack Tactics did, it still had "once per turn" text.
You're right, playtest pdf says once per turn. It's a nice buff that it is no longer restricted. In addition, Vex now gives you advantage on your next attack against any creature, instead of only giving you advantage against that same creature!
Expect per round, while I am allegedly in the minority, I feel that the majority of changes I have seen lean towards less fun for balancing argument. Because the goal is not a game but an almost static equation for combat to focus on making a n after school theater club.
Without that restriction, the second attack is a "melee weapon attack" with an attack roll, so ... technically it could trigger cleaves until you miss, which obviously is nonsense. Beyond and others tend to paraphrase. One should probably refer to the book itself before trusting various online sources for little details like that.
Hey, im excited to see that sidebar that the soulknife rogue's psychic blades get the vex property! Makes me hopeful that they have alleviated some of the pain of not being able to use those psychic blades with other weapon based features.
Hard agree. I find masteries an annoying martial/caster divide band-aid that will quickly become tiresome. It's like a taste of 4E except you're using the same ability each time.
I still don't get why they didn't just restore martial maneuvers as a universal martial feature. Hey could've righted their biggest mistake but chose to step around it, tragic.
So graze is now a DPR floor. Let's say 3 attacks, 50% hit chance each at a +5 to hit. Lets say weapon average is 5 (just for easier math). This ignores crits. Before: 1/8 chance to deal 0. 3/8 to deal 10. 3/8 to deal 20. 1/8 to deal 30. Average to: 15 dmg. With graze: 1/8 to deal 15. 3/8 to deal 20. 3/8 to deal 25 1/8 to deal 30. Average: 22,5. -> 7,5 DPR or 2,5 dmg per attack. Biggest boon: Consistency. You know the enemy is
I didn't have a problem with topple. Sure, it might slow down martial attacks a little bit, but it's still equal to or faster than your caster's turns.
If you've played with an indecisive Druid before, you know this won't be a problem. Worst case is you ask your DM to let you just keep rolling as they're making the saves, and then let you roll again for anything you would've had advantage on
I'm a bit sad that Prone does not give you advantage outside of the 5 feet. In my opinion any melee attack on a prone enemy should get advantage - if you play a bugbear, use a weapon with Reach or whatever the reason. That's why we even have a houserule in my group - if the enemy is prone and you make a melee attack, you get advantage.
There could be some more nuance about what range and size an attack starts getting disadvantaged by prone, but I think making it melee/range split instead of distance-based would be a bad idea. Once you're looking at a bugbear with a pike attacking at 15 ft, a prone target is clearly less exposed, not more. It could be not enough difference for any advantage or disadvantage, but that's the kind of nuance I mean.
@@donovanmarks1865 Agreed, kinda. Well, not the pike at 15ft - exposed is not just area size but ease of attack, and its a lot easier to attack a near helpless target unable to effectively dodge or parry. So, does 5ft make sense? A target prone on the floor 10ft away is VERY easy to hit with any weapon that can do so, likely more so than one standing up and moving even slightly. The decrease in overall area to hit is minor at this range, while the helplessness is massive. At a certain point this equalises such that there would be no Advantage or Disadvantage. Then at a distance beyond this the area to hit becomes more penalising than the helplessness benefits. Personally, I would go with something like: 15ft 30ft Disadvantage.
If you explain it in a sensible way to your DM I’m sure they would allow it. The rules as written strictly prevent cheese, which is very important for such a core rule that will come up all the time.
@@TreantmonksTemple I’m worried the martial arts die was nerfed again wich will be a major pissoff if so cuase they said we get a bigger ma die in exchange for no weapon mastery . The feats seem to favor weapon users.. I know you can’t say anything but I’m still worried about nerfs lol
Watching all these videos drop its clear to me that WotC have given lots of RUclipsrs little snippets of the PHB and the DMG but they've given Chris the whole PHB.
Light property : in an official interview, they (WotC) said you could do two extra attacks (one free with Mastery, and one using a Bonus Action). That said, they may have made a mistake in the interview in contrast to the written rules. Unless what is written here is from D&D Beyond and they made a mistake (?).
One of the things I'm really looking forward to finding out is whether Bladesingers, Pact of the Blade / Hexblade, College of Swords, etc get access to any Weapon Mastery.
The final list of 2024 PHB subclasses was released with yesterday's info dump. The only gish subclasses to make the PHB were College of Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight Fighter.
@@PatRiot-le7rd Ah, good point. So I guess that would mean that the unlisted gish subclasses don't get weapon masteries until / unless they get an update in the future.
I've been playing a Dual-wielding Shadowblade Bladesinger/Fighter, and Nick has been AMAZING for me. I haven't even gotten to Echo Knight 3 that I'm planning yet, but already the first two rounds of combat my bonus action is accounted for with Bladesong and then Shadowblade. But when I do, remanifesting my echo is going to hog a lot of my BA economy, on top of other things like misty step or other general bonus actions. So getting that free off-hand attack has just made the build play so much more smoothly and has made it a lot more enjoyable. I can see this also making something like a dual-wielding ranger way more fun to play, since it'll let you play around with Hunter's mark and other bonus action weapon spells while also letting you still get that off-hand attack. Dual-wielding still seems worse than other options, but at least with Nick it lets you play that fantasy with a lot less of the friction.
There is one minor but very useful clarification regarding the Slow property! The UA said that "you" cannot reduce a creature's Speed by more than 10 feet with repeated attacks, and I've seen many people suggest that this means that if multiple characters each hit with Slow once, they can still stack the Speed reduction. The new phrasing is more general, that "a creature's Speed can't be reduced by more than 10 feet with this property," so now it's abundantly clear that RAI and RAW Slow can't stack regardless of source. Unfortunately, it looks like they might not have fixed the Light property, in that you can attack with a shortsword, stow it, draw a different but identical shortsword in the same hand, then attack with the new shortsword specifically because it is a different shortsword, all while holding a shield in the other hand, which is deeply illogical and unfortunate.
Yea that's pretty unfortunate, although we haven't seen the light property yet so fingers crossed. Chris said that there are things he was surprised didn't get fixed in the final version and this was definitely one of his biggest gripes with the UA. I'm sure some people will be able to have more fun because of it I guess. If it's not fixed I'm just not going to allow it at my table, since it makes absolutely no sense to me.
I hope that the monsters get some new shiny technology to keep up with the player characters. If not, they will be lying on the floor being attacked with advantage in every fight....
Be a level 6 bladesinging wizard with 2 levels of warlock. Attack with a light crossbow with the Slow weapon mastery and extra attack with eldritch blast with the lance of lethargy eldritch invocation to slow your opponents by 20 feet each round. Add that on top of something like Web that creates difficult terrain or Slow and you have a great lockdown build. If their speed is higher than you can negate or you miss, your buddies can also stand around and Push the enemy back, while you slowly beat them up. Glorious group of bullies.
Nice to see them reaching out to some great creators, and to provide yourself a forward copy. I honestly think there isnt a creator out there who has cared more about improving the game than yourself. Keep up the good work. 😁
Looking forward to the NDA being dropped and Treantmonk drops about 10 videos! Thank you for the information! I’m surprised monk doesn’t have any weapon mastery
So if you're using a martial weapon with the Reach property then you're attacking a Prone enemy at disadvantage from 10 feet? I never thought about that before.
I'm of the option Topple should be one saving throw per turn for each creature. However for ever attack you hit with the weapon before you choose to use Topple the saving throw DC goes up by 2. Or something similar.
It should have been once per turn, or even asked for Bonus Action after hitting to use. (Also, Strength save instead of Constitution would have made more sense)
What is the flavor text around Sap causing distraction all about? Why is imposing Disadvantage on enemy Attack rolls helpful for your casters and Fireball?
I do like how it makes Daggers and Shortswords very useful for Rogues, though I suspect some masteries might become very annoying for DMs (like the Prone one, which might require some moderation, to avoid rolling Saves every single attack!).
Doesn’t Cleave look different? If you have other sources of damage besides your Ability score to add to the second attack it looks like you can add them now. That seems like a big deal.
My excitement for these reveals dropped after seeing what they did to backgrounds. With the custom background now locked behind the DMG, they now become what races were in the 2014 PHB. Now if I want to play an Urchin Wizard who found an old spell book, I will be forced to pick dexterity, constitution, and wisdom... no 16 intelligence for him. Also, DMG optional rules tend to be ignored by new players for years. Custom needed to be the first option to cement it into the psyche of new players that it's okay. I was part of a group who felt uncomfortable about changing the base rules.
Im curious about dual wielding. I'm assuming its mostly unchanged from the playtest. But i dont remember if they updated the feat or the fighting style in the playtest. Ill check on it but its I'm not sure what to expect in terms of new content.
@@apjapki the current version of lance of lethargy specifies that it triggers “once on each of your turns”. I don’t know if that is getting updated for 2024, but if it does I’d love for it to be able to be applied as liberally as the slow weapon mastery.
While I'm mostly excited for weapon masteries, I have gripes with two of them. 1. Graze - what happens when you apply a poison (like purple worm poison) to say a greatsword? Does a simple scratch apply the poison? If yes, then you can apply the poison on every attack, regardless if you hit or miss. 2. Nick - If you use 2 weapons with the nick property, you get no mechanical advantage. Characters that dual wield scimitars or daggers are weaker than someone using a shortsword and dagger for instance. They've already confirmed that using the nick property doesn't mean you can also use your bonus action for another offhand attack. I think using 2 nick weapons should bypass that restriction.
@@AnaseSkyrider in my home games, I'll probably used "knocked flat" or "flattened." Prone will be a voluntary condition for people who want to be tactical.
Flex is definitely the most used property at my table, so it didn't surprise me to be dropped, but an average of 1 point of damage per hit doesn't seem unbalanced when the PC also has to give up other potential properties to activate it. It's just another reason to drop the longsword as soon as possible for a better weapon.
I dont understand why they never tried doing something like this for stuff like Topple: if you beat the enemy's AC plus their CON (or maybe STR) modifier, then you knock them prone.
@@AnaseSkyrider Considering Fortitude was determined by either Strength or Con (whichever was the higher mod) and certain martial classes had abilities to target Fort instead of AC to effects like pushing or knocking prone? I'd say yes, regardless of whatever stigma 4e has.
@@Mrryn I'm memeing. People constantly reinvent both 4e and PF2e. I just didn't like your "or y'know" tone. More precisely, it's rare in PF2e for a weapon or spell attack roll to target a saving throw DC. If it's an attack, it's usually a skill vs the DC (such as grappling/tripping), almost never anything else.
Its a small thing but im so glad the weapon mastery trait just gives you mastery with all weapons of a certain type lol having to pick was just clunky and unnecesary
So I haven't kept up with the playtest stuff, but my first thought on seeing "a weapon that gives you advantage" is "great weapon master" I've heard that eldritch knight gets the cantrip extra attack now, so it might be fun to pair that up with everyones favorite things, hexblade and elving accuracy.
Hey! Were you sent a physical copy of the PHB or just a PDF? I remember during the 3 book bundle release you being angry you could not read the MoM physical book.
In the video that DMD themselves put out about weapon mastery, Jeremy Crawford said that you could use the Nick property to get a third attack. Can you elaborate on that?
The weapon with the nick mastery, does it have to be your off-hand, or main hand weapon? Is there any benefit to dual-wielding weapons with the nick mastery. If there isn't, that's gorse. When I think of a dual-wielder, I think of them using matching weapons, not a short sword & dagger.
Hey, can you confirm Light and Nick since they have been presented here? Reading the DnDBeyond article it uses the words “you are wielding”. Does that mean Light has changed and you do have to have both weapons in hands at the same time?? It could be bad paraphrasing or a direct quote and I think they intended to be accurate about everything Weapon Rules and Weapon Mastery. So it should be something you can clarify for us.
Didn't they literally just say in the interviews that nick did mean that you got to make another attack with your bonus? Interview guy talked about chucking loads of daggers with Perkins and Crawford and they all laughed and agreed.
2:00 Are Firearms just now Martial Weapons and not a separate proficiency? Are they just ranged martial? Also Fourth Edition had weapon groups, and I remember at least fighters did different stuff depending on what weapon you were wielding, and sometimes what hand it was in if it was your off hand although that might have been two weapon fighting off the ranger. Eh?
I know you probably arent allowed to say if you know it for sure. But I cant remember if the subclasses start at level three for all classes now, or whether or not they changed it back to the old ways. Only asking because I have a Level 10 character with one level in twilight cleric just for the weapon prof and armor, I think this will screw his build up lol.
I feel like with topple the prone effect could just happen when the enemy falls below half health in the attack or is already half health. Or maybe it's hit point total is reduced until it's next rest. Or you can move your opponent around with the force of your strike by 5ft. Just spit-balling. Sad to not see a longbow centric weapon mastery, like knock to knock an additional arrow and add the damage die at the expense of accuracy or range (maybe) or draw where you pull the bow string far enough the arrow sent from the bow is more powerful, possibly exceeding it's usual range or being able to strike an additional opponent if their standing behind the target, as if the arrow has gone through two targets. Or fletch where you adjust the fetching on the arrows shot to enable the arrow to curve around on obstacle to hit a target behind that obstacle. Take your pick.
Thanks as always Treantmonk. You break the game down so well. I've not yet played with any of the playtest rules, but it's great to have a heads up for if and when we switch. Not trying to regurgitate the "WoTC = bad" thing, but I've been involved with some Pathfinder games recently, and if people are into high detail flavour and mechanics, I do think it's worth considering (this is an intuitive rather than an arithmetical take, but it is a "deeper" game in terms of weapon choice and feat choice, which some of the 2024 stuff is - in my opinion - trying to emulate
So these are basically akin to the weapon abilities in BG3 but unlimited? I wonder how much of a heads up Larian got for these masteries to be able to fit them into the game.
I didn't care for weapon abilities, but I hate Masteries because they're so conceptually limited, routine, and just repeats the bloated design space they should've used to expand martial abilities.
I can already see something like a player taking: push, Gleave, Graze or Topple. (Str) And beg the DM to allow them to switch the last 3 mastery to Maneuvers. I think that would be for the best.
I just came here to say the same thing. A cleave chance on every attack might be too strong though. Pop that on a giant barbarian with rage and elemental damage on every attack and cleave would be epic.
Graze might not be bad either I like the idea of throwing that on the worldtree barb with Battering roots feature. I wonder how we could exploid cleave+sweeping strike battle maneuver+green flame blade to hup to 4 foes within reach with a single attack. 😂😮😅😊 (maybe adding in sweeping strike is a bit much, so we swap battle master+other class stuff to eldritch knight.)
Can a paladin still smite if he misses the attack but deals damage equal to his strength modifier with the graze weapon mastery? Same question for all other bonuses to damage (sneak attack, GWM though it is surely redesigned, spells like hex or hunters mark, etc.). Or do you need to hit with an attack to do any extra damage?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the Vex property RAW essentially mean that as soon as you hit an attack with that property, you’ll be able to just keep attacking with Vex weapon(s) and have advantage on every attack, unless you stop attacking for some reason or get unlucky enough to miss an attack even with advantage? Sounds to me like crit fishing builds will have a field day with this one…
So, weapons with versatile should have gotten *Flex* as a property that allows them to have two properties depending on wether they wield it one handed or two handed. So, quarterstaff could get _Topple_ for one handed and _Push_ for two handed. Battleaxe could get _Slow_ for one handed and _Graze_ for two handed. The entire play of versatile weapons is that you can pick one handed with extra AC or two handed for a bit more damage. In my experience people pick one and stick with it. Not using the versatile property mid combat if at all. Bot changing their one-handed or two-handed use. Having the properties change would incentivize players to use versatile weapons' mediocre damage die compared to heavy weapons as it actually makes the weapon *Versatile*.
I wish Push specified "a creature one size larger than you or smaller" instead of "large or smaller" to account for abilities that let you grow in size.
Offtopic: Have you considered a Barbarian 2 + Paladin 2 + Clockwork Soul 6. I was thinking about it, and you can still smite with the paladin feature, and "Restore Balance" actually works well with "Reckless Attack", and the 6th level ward feature of the clockwork soul would allow the barbarian to use sorcery points to augment their hit points. Pick up polearm master and you can still have 2 attacks. Did you already do a video on this? Also, I wonder how this will change with the new D&D rules? I know that sorcerer /paladin builds are popular, but usually divine soul is what's discussed, I wouldn't mind seeing other builds explored up to higher levels.
Игры
Fastest NDA restricted hands in the west
I’m so glad that they gave you a review copy finally. I value your nuanced and thoughtful analysis and hope this gives you a chance to build up a bunch of extra videos that will do amazing when the new players handbook comes out. This is a win win for D&D. A relatively cheap way to generate buzz that is creator friendly. Keep up the amazing work. Well deserved.
I'm surprised there were absolutely no changes from the playtest. I didn't expect major changes but I thought they'd tinker a little, especially with Topple.
I was also surprised.
To that end, do you think topple is weak, op, or just wanted some slight changes of a different kind?
I think the issue is just forcing the target to make a saving throw on every swing until you make it fall over.
If these are how they are in the book,
Graze lost the part that says it's damage can't be increased except by increasing the modifier.
Maybe they realized it can be a bit lackluster and allowed for other interactions. Let's say a Dao Warlock/fighter uses a maul to graze a monster, maybe it can enhance the damage that way now. It won't be OP, but is a small boost to graze that may be enough to down an enemy one turn earlier and guarantee that you can use the bonus damage every turn.
Let's say you are a lvl 1 dao warlock/lvl 1 fighter, with 16 str. With a bludgeon graze weapon, your min damage per round would be 5. On a hit, it's 6 - 13 (assuming a d8 weapon). Have not done the math, bit I would say it would average around 10+ DPR consistently. Seems nice for a lvl 2 character and should hold some ground until lvl 10 or so.
I could see a common house rule for fast Topple being if you hit 5 over the AC, you topple them.
I see that Pathfinder/DC20 pill. hahaha
Sounds nice in theory. Hate it in practice.
I like 10 + Con mod, or Con Score, (add proficiency if they are proficient in Con saves) compared to the attack roll. Targeting their constitution should still be important.
Sounds like someone has been watching the DC20 channel. 😉
I've had these kinds of rules in my games since the early 90s. So, anyone that thinks rolling 5+ over an AC is new, well, it's not. It's been around a long time. And I'm glad the person here who mentioned it likes the idea. Thank you sir!
@helixxharpell it's been in pathfinder for a while. Hitting 10+ with a flail was immediate prone. This proved to be way too strong, though, so it's been nerfed to be like the 5r one, except dex save instead of con.
Dc 20, D&D 2024 and Elden Ring in the same week? My little heart can't take it.
Our little hearts*
Hopefully you can find someone with greater restoration before the week is out. Who knows what else we'll get!
Putting the dual wielding rules into the light weapon property was a smart idea actually.
The big thing is that it allows you to duel-wield hand crossbows, essentially covering the role of the crossbow expert feat.
@seisner6655 You still need a free hand to reload the hand crossbows.
That's what a monkey familiar or unseen servant or heck, 1sp a day commoner servant is for@@LexBetty
I'm surprised to see Flex gone, Crawford seemed so proud of it, telling us we were all wrong about how good it was.
I'm not. Crawford is a public face for a moneygrab, he's got mote hand up his butt than Kermit, lol.
@@ms4eji0bek he is also a human being, stop being weird
It clearly had the lowest satisfaction rating and also offered no tactical Advantage unlike every other mastery.
They are definitely listening to the results they got from the playtest
Having been playtesting a lot of the "fully released" playtest materials, I have to say that weapon masteries (especially nick!) Have been beloved by my players. Though when we playtested a different campaign and my character had push or graze, my DM hated it with a passion. Bugbear reach with a polearm made it so I can basically ensure that no creature could get close to the party, and graze made them feel like every attack I made was a magic missile for free. I however, had a blast and didn't feel like it was crazy powerful or anything considering the potency of spellcasting *looking at you spirit guardians*
Nice that thye are adding some BASIC tactical examples for newer players.
Con save instead of strength on topple save is going to give me an aneurysm.
The problem with a Strength Saving Throw is that objects always fail them. So, someone could topple a building with auto-success.
A Strength check would make the most sense, being contestable if the target is able and not willing.
If not contested (for example, against an object), the DC would be for the DM to decide (as pretty much all DCs are), with the DM considering how easy the target would be to topple (a heavy short statue is going to be difficult, while a light tall one would be easy).
@@RJWhitmoreI'm not sure an object can have the prone condition, especially a building.
@@Adept_Austin "lying flat, especially face downwards."
Linguistically it definitely could, condition wise it wouldn't do much and the Topple mastery states 'creature'.
Still, I was talking about what would make sense immersively. If we limit it to creatures then the gameplay mechanic works fine as Con save regardless, because its just a mechanic. An Int save would also work fine.
Now, if we talk about optimising the mechanic for saving time, since we have already thrown immersion out the window the best solution would be to just make it happen automatically, no save, once a turn. Balance wise? It is already out of balance with the other masteries, so that ship has sailed - of course, it would be worse if auto-success.
The semi-immersive, semi-balance, semi-timesaving mechanical version would probably be a once per turn Strength saving throw.
Cleave actually has changed! It used to be once per round.
EDIT: actually now I'm not sure. The D&D beyond text doesn't have "once per turn", but in the preview video that Pack Tactics did, it still had "once per turn" text.
You're right, playtest pdf says once per turn. It's a nice buff that it is no longer restricted.
In addition, Vex now gives you advantage on your next attack against any creature, instead of only giving you advantage against that same creature!
Expect per round, while I am allegedly in the minority, I feel that the majority of changes I have seen lean towards less fun for balancing argument. Because the goal is not a game but an almost static equation for combat to focus on making a n after school theater club.
Without that restriction, the second attack is a "melee weapon attack" with an attack roll, so ... technically it could trigger cleaves until you miss, which obviously is nonsense. Beyond and others tend to paraphrase. One should probably refer to the book itself before trusting various online sources for little details like that.
Hey, im excited to see that sidebar that the soulknife rogue's psychic blades get the vex property! Makes me hopeful that they have alleviated some of the pain of not being able to use those psychic blades with other weapon based features.
I'm dissapointed to see there aren't more masteries. I don't think this will be enough to make each weapon feel distinct
Hard agree. I find masteries an annoying martial/caster divide band-aid that will quickly become tiresome. It's like a taste of 4E except you're using the same ability each time.
@@garydworetsky9025 Yeah, I can imagine having to account for them every turn will get tedious quickly.
I still don't get why they didn't just restore martial maneuvers as a universal martial feature. Hey could've righted their biggest mistake but chose to step around it, tragic.
So graze is now a DPR floor.
Let's say 3 attacks, 50% hit chance each at a +5 to hit. Lets say weapon average is 5 (just for easier math). This ignores crits.
Before:
1/8 chance to deal 0.
3/8 to deal 10.
3/8 to deal 20.
1/8 to deal 30.
Average to: 15 dmg.
With graze:
1/8 to deal 15.
3/8 to deal 20.
3/8 to deal 25
1/8 to deal 30.
Average: 22,5.
-> 7,5 DPR or 2,5 dmg per attack.
Biggest boon: Consistency. You know the enemy is
I didn't have a problem with topple. Sure, it might slow down martial attacks a little bit, but it's still equal to or faster than your caster's turns.
That's true!
Sucks that that is the case, but sooooo TRUE 🤣
If you've played with an indecisive Druid before, you know this won't be a problem. Worst case is you ask your DM to let you just keep rolling as they're making the saves, and then let you roll again for anything you would've had advantage on
2 videos? I haven't even finished watching the first one yet!
just finished, let's gooooooooooo!
Double feature! Lucky us! Thanks Treant!
You bet!
I'm a bit sad that Prone does not give you advantage outside of the 5 feet. In my opinion any melee attack on a prone enemy should get advantage - if you play a bugbear, use a weapon with Reach or whatever the reason. That's why we even have a houserule in my group - if the enemy is prone and you make a melee attack, you get advantage.
Or at the very least, no disadvantage. 😅
There could be some more nuance about what range and size an attack starts getting disadvantaged by prone, but I think making it melee/range split instead of distance-based would be a bad idea. Once you're looking at a bugbear with a pike attacking at 15 ft, a prone target is clearly less exposed, not more. It could be not enough difference for any advantage or disadvantage, but that's the kind of nuance I mean.
@@donovanmarks1865 Agreed, kinda. Well, not the pike at 15ft - exposed is not just area size but ease of attack, and its a lot easier to attack a near helpless target unable to effectively dodge or parry.
So, does 5ft make sense? A target prone on the floor 10ft away is VERY easy to hit with any weapon that can do so, likely more so than one standing up and moving even slightly. The decrease in overall area to hit is minor at this range, while the helplessness is massive. At a certain point this equalises such that there would be no Advantage or Disadvantage. Then at a distance beyond this the area to hit becomes more penalising than the helplessness benefits. Personally, I would go with something like: 15ft 30ft Disadvantage.
If you explain it in a sensible way to your DM I’m sure they would allow it. The rules as written strictly prevent cheese, which is very important for such a core rule that will come up all the time.
I was really hoping monks would get masteries too 😟
Monks did OK, I promise.
Maybe as part of Future kensei revision
I forget if they made the 'you can have masteries' feat a 1st or 4th level feat.
@@TreantmonksTemple I’m worried the martial arts die was nerfed again wich will be a major pissoff if so cuase they said we get a bigger ma die in exchange for no weapon mastery . The feats seem to favor weapon users.. I know you can’t say anything but I’m still worried about nerfs lol
Congrats on getting an advance copy - well deserved Chris!
I think several creators are getting a little slice of the revelation pie - that is cool
Watching all these videos drop its clear to me that WotC have given lots of RUclipsrs little snippets of the PHB and the DMG but they've given Chris the whole PHB.
I do like the commentary on these features in the rules text - it gives a much clearer picture of their intended use.
"Slow - this mastery is excellent for fast builds"
Who was in charge of naming these?...
Prone condition gives disadvantage on melee with reach? Insert Nick Fury council meme here.
Light property : in an official interview, they (WotC) said you could do two extra attacks (one free with Mastery, and one using a Bonus Action). That said, they may have made a mistake in the interview in contrast to the written rules. Unless what is written here is from D&D Beyond and they made a mistake (?).
They removed the once per turn restriction of cleave?!?!?! I hope this was simply omitted.
One of the things I'm really looking forward to finding out is whether Bladesingers, Pact of the Blade / Hexblade, College of Swords, etc get access to any Weapon Mastery.
Hexblade kinda got baked into pact of the blade so I doubt thats gonna be a subclass, but even if they don't get them at least there's the feat
The final list of 2024 PHB subclasses was released with yesterday's info dump. The only gish subclasses to make the PHB were College of Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight Fighter.
I really hope they don't
@@PatRiot-le7rd arcane trickster
@@PatRiot-le7rd Ah, good point. So I guess that would mean that the unlisted gish subclasses don't get weapon masteries until / unless they get an update in the future.
I've been playing a Dual-wielding Shadowblade Bladesinger/Fighter, and Nick has been AMAZING for me. I haven't even gotten to Echo Knight 3 that I'm planning yet, but already the first two rounds of combat my bonus action is accounted for with Bladesong and then Shadowblade. But when I do, remanifesting my echo is going to hog a lot of my BA economy, on top of other things like misty step or other general bonus actions. So getting that free off-hand attack has just made the build play so much more smoothly and has made it a lot more enjoyable.
I can see this also making something like a dual-wielding ranger way more fun to play, since it'll let you play around with Hunter's mark and other bonus action weapon spells while also letting you still get that off-hand attack. Dual-wielding still seems worse than other options, but at least with Nick it lets you play that fantasy with a lot less of the friction.
There is one minor but very useful clarification regarding the Slow property! The UA said that "you" cannot reduce a creature's Speed by more than 10 feet with repeated attacks, and I've seen many people suggest that this means that if multiple characters each hit with Slow once, they can still stack the Speed reduction. The new phrasing is more general, that "a creature's Speed can't be reduced by more than 10 feet with this property," so now it's abundantly clear that RAI and RAW Slow can't stack regardless of source.
Unfortunately, it looks like they might not have fixed the Light property, in that you can attack with a shortsword, stow it, draw a different but identical shortsword in the same hand, then attack with the new shortsword specifically because it is a different shortsword, all while holding a shield in the other hand, which is deeply illogical and unfortunate.
Yea that's pretty unfortunate, although we haven't seen the light property yet so fingers crossed. Chris said that there are things he was surprised didn't get fixed in the final version and this was definitely one of his biggest gripes with the UA. I'm sure some people will be able to have more fun because of it I guess.
If it's not fixed I'm just not going to allow it at my table, since it makes absolutely no sense to me.
I do think it’s funny there is a monk in thier picture for weapon mastery lol
it's so cheeky lol
Thanks Chris
It's a good thing I have the afternoon free. I didn't expect a downpour of information. This week will be exciting.
I hope that the monsters get some new shiny technology to keep up with the player characters. If not, they will be lying on the floor being attacked with advantage in every fight....
RIP Power attack
Be a level 6 bladesinging wizard with 2 levels of warlock. Attack with a light crossbow with the Slow weapon mastery and extra attack with eldritch blast with the lance of lethargy eldritch invocation to slow your opponents by 20 feet each round. Add that on top of something like Web that creates difficult terrain or Slow and you have a great lockdown build. If their speed is higher than you can negate or you miss, your buddies can also stand around and Push the enemy back, while you slowly beat them up. Glorious group of bullies.
Nice to see them reaching out to some great creators, and to provide yourself a forward copy. I honestly think there isnt a creator out there who has cared more about improving the game than yourself. Keep up the good work. 😁
Looking forward to the NDA being dropped and Treantmonk drops about 10 videos! Thank you for the information! I’m surprised monk doesn’t have any weapon mastery
Feel slightly bad for Pack Tactics
Why?
its weird, where they unhappy with his video maybe?
I don't know why they posted this right after his video dropped.
@TreantmonksTemple *shrugs*
Oh well.
Nah, don't worry about it. It's kinda funny. It was a fun video to edit and I'm having fun right now.
Oh nice! I've been playing a One D&D playtest fighter and really enjoying it, this will be good for updating!
So if you're using a martial weapon with the Reach property then you're attacking a Prone enemy at disadvantage from 10 feet? I never thought about that before.
I'm of the option Topple should be one saving throw per turn for each creature. However for ever attack you hit with the weapon before you choose to use Topple the saving throw DC goes up by 2. Or something similar.
It should have been once per turn, or even asked for Bonus Action after hitting to use. (Also, Strength save instead of Constitution would have made more sense)
What is the flavor text around Sap causing distraction all about? Why is imposing Disadvantage on enemy Attack rolls helpful for your casters and Fireball?
I suppose they will have more problems with hitting your caster.
But yes, either the rule is wrong, or the flavour text is wrong
I do like how it makes Daggers and Shortswords very useful for Rogues, though I suspect some masteries might become very annoying for DMs (like the Prone one, which might require some moderation, to avoid rolling Saves every single attack!).
WHAT A TWIST!!
I hope they offered you a sponsorship, even if you typical don't do sponsors. You've atleast earned an invite! Thanks for covering!
As soon as I saw this thumbnail I knew Pack Tactics was going to be fuming.
OMG! I found another gator! 🐊
@@PackTactics 🐊🐊🐊
Gators unite! 🐊
Does nick plus martial arts allow you to attack 2 times with your action and once with your bonus action?
Finally a video which again begins with "Hey Optimancers!" again.
another informative video!
Doesn’t Cleave look different?
If you have other sources of damage besides your Ability score to add to the second attack it looks like you can add them now. That seems like a big deal.
My excitement for these reveals dropped after seeing what they did to backgrounds. With the custom background now locked behind the DMG, they now become what races were in the 2014 PHB. Now if I want to play an Urchin Wizard who found an old spell book, I will be forced to pick dexterity, constitution, and wisdom... no 16 intelligence for him. Also, DMG optional rules tend to be ignored by new players for years. Custom needed to be the first option to cement it into the psyche of new players that it's okay. I was part of a group who felt uncomfortable about changing the base rules.
Hopefully this means we'll actually see use of some of the other simple weapons outside of shortbows. I've always wanted to use a sickle...
Im curious about dual wielding. I'm assuming its mostly unchanged from the playtest. But i dont remember if they updated the feat or the fighting style in the playtest.
Ill check on it but its I'm not sure what to expect in terms of new content.
It is interesting that slow for weapons did not specify that it only triggers once per turn like the warlock’s slow on eldritch blast.
It does trigger multiple times per turn. Just not on the same enemy.
@@apjapki the current version of lance of lethargy specifies that it triggers “once on each of your turns”. I don’t know if that is getting updated for 2024, but if it does I’d love for it to be able to be applied as liberally as the slow weapon mastery.
So will I be able to play Two Weapon Fighting with two long swords or rapiers?
While I'm mostly excited for weapon masteries, I have gripes with two of them.
1. Graze - what happens when you apply a poison (like purple worm poison) to say a greatsword? Does a simple scratch apply the poison? If yes, then you can apply the poison on every attack, regardless if you hit or miss.
2. Nick - If you use 2 weapons with the nick property, you get no mechanical advantage. Characters that dual wield scimitars or daggers are weaker than someone using a shortsword and dagger for instance. They've already confirmed that using the nick property doesn't mean you can also use your bonus action for another offhand attack. I think using 2 nick weapons should bypass that restriction.
We badly need a condition that separates being knocked prone versus being intentionally prone. But I can't think of a good synonym
Supine means flat on your back
@@andyenglish4303 yeah, though I don't know if being "knocked supine" has ever been a phrase.
Knocked down
@@AnaseSkyrider in my home games, I'll probably used "knocked flat" or "flattened." Prone will be a voluntary condition for people who want to be tactical.
Why?
Flex is definitely the most used property at my table, so it didn't surprise me to be dropped, but an average of 1 point of damage per hit doesn't seem unbalanced when the PC also has to give up other potential properties to activate it. It's just another reason to drop the longsword as soon as possible for a better weapon.
I'm really interested in see what was their final veredict between the Monk class and Weapon Mastery.
Also my guess is you can no longer choose your stats but have to match your background to the stat increase rather then choosing for your self
I dont understand why they never tried doing something like this for stuff like Topple: if you beat the enemy's AC plus their CON (or maybe STR) modifier, then you knock them prone.
Ah, reinventing PF2e. Yeah, just attack their STR save DC with your weapon.
@@AnaseSkyriderOr y'know...4th edition. Where Fortitude, Reflex, and Will were defenses that you could target with certain powers/abilities.
@@Mrryn no
@@AnaseSkyrider Considering Fortitude was determined by either Strength or Con (whichever was the higher mod) and certain martial classes had abilities to target Fort instead of AC to effects like pushing or knocking prone? I'd say yes, regardless of whatever stigma 4e has.
@@Mrryn I'm memeing. People constantly reinvent both 4e and PF2e. I just didn't like your "or y'know" tone.
More precisely, it's rare in PF2e for a weapon or spell attack roll to target a saving throw DC. If it's an attack, it's usually a skill vs the DC (such as grappling/tripping), almost never anything else.
Push when yourself large with spells or abilities doesn't grant you the means to push larger creature is a little disappointing
Cleave doesn't use bonus action anymore? So you can cleave on every attack?
So Vex just gives you advantage on all attacks after your first hit plus the first attack of your next turn?
Its a small thing but im so glad the weapon mastery trait just gives you mastery with all weapons of a certain type lol having to pick was just clunky and unnecesary
So I haven't kept up with the playtest stuff, but my first thought on seeing "a weapon that gives you advantage" is "great weapon master"
I've heard that eldritch knight gets the cantrip extra attack now, so it might be fun to pair that up with everyones favorite things, hexblade and elving accuracy.
Guess monsters in the Monster Manual will be getting some form of weapon mastery as well?
Can you use the weapon masteries once per turn or once per every attack?
Hey! Were you sent a physical copy of the PHB or just a PDF? I remember during the 3 book bundle release you being angry you could not read the MoM physical book.
At least in that document, I think they may have removed the once-per-turn restriction on Cleave?
In the video that DMD themselves put out about weapon mastery, Jeremy Crawford said that you could use the Nick property to get a third attack. Can you elaborate on that?
I believe he's referring to using Nick and Extra Attack together
Fully agree with you on Topple, clunky!
For Cleave, it says you don't add your ability modifier, but what about something like Barbarian rage damage?
Did Graze lose the line that says it's damage can't be increased?
The weapon with the nick mastery, does it have to be your off-hand, or main hand weapon?
Is there any benefit to dual-wielding weapons with the nick mastery. If there isn't, that's gorse. When I think of a dual-wielder, I think of them using matching weapons, not a short sword & dagger.
Hey, can you confirm Light and Nick since they have been presented here? Reading the DnDBeyond article it uses the words “you are wielding”. Does that mean Light has changed and you do have to have both weapons in hands at the same time??
It could be bad paraphrasing or a direct quote and I think they intended to be accurate about everything Weapon Rules and Weapon Mastery. So it should be something you can clarify for us.
Didn't they literally just say in the interviews that nick did mean that you got to make another attack with your bonus? Interview guy talked about chucking loads of daggers with Perkins and Crawford and they all laughed and agreed.
With the Topple mastery, wonder what they did to the Battlemaster's Topple
2:00 Are Firearms just now Martial Weapons and not a separate proficiency? Are they just ranged martial? Also Fourth Edition had weapon groups, and I remember at least fighters did different stuff depending on what weapon you were wielding, and sometimes what hand it was in if it was your off hand although that might have been two weapon fighting off the ranger. Eh?
Lots of Eh. Like, almost nothing new to say here, fast video is a good way to do it.
Kind of a small list. Also no monk? Kensai? No pack of the blade lock?
I know you probably arent allowed to say if you know it for sure. But I cant remember if the subclasses start at level three for all classes now, or whether or not they changed it back to the old ways. Only asking because I have a Level 10 character with one level in twilight cleric just for the weapon prof and armor, I think this will screw his build up lol.
I believe Crawford mentions this in the long video. All at level 3.
@@ParaisoFlower Damn, thanks. I'm at work and didnt have time to hear all of what he said.
so rogues dont get weapon mastery on ranged weapons that arent light? or is that a mistake in the article?
I feel like with topple the prone effect could just happen when the enemy falls below half health in the attack or is already half health. Or maybe it's hit point total is reduced until it's next rest. Or you can move your opponent around with the force of your strike by 5ft. Just spit-balling.
Sad to not see a longbow centric weapon mastery, like knock to knock an additional arrow and add the damage die at the expense of accuracy or range (maybe) or draw where you pull the bow string far enough the arrow sent from the bow is more powerful, possibly exceeding it's usual range or being able to strike an additional opponent if their standing behind the target, as if the arrow has gone through two targets. Or fletch where you adjust the fetching on the arrows shot to enable the arrow to curve around on obstacle to hit a target behind that obstacle. Take your pick.
Will they finally turn dart a light weapon?
Thanks as always Treantmonk. You break the game down so well. I've not yet played with any of the playtest rules, but it's great to have a heads up for if and when we switch. Not trying to regurgitate the "WoTC = bad" thing, but I've been involved with some Pathfinder games recently, and if people are into high detail flavour and mechanics, I do think it's worth considering (this is an intuitive rather than an arithmetical take, but it is a "deeper" game in terms of weapon choice and feat choice, which some of the 2024 stuff is - in my opinion - trying to emulate
Right now, its clear to now Homebrew house rules for Weapon Masteries imo
So these are basically akin to the weapon abilities in BG3 but unlimited? I wonder how much of a heads up Larian got for these masteries to be able to fit them into the game.
I didn't care for weapon abilities, but I hate Masteries because they're so conceptually limited, routine, and just repeats the bloated design space they should've used to expand martial abilities.
I can already see something like a player taking:
push, Gleave, Graze or Topple. (Str)
And beg the DM to allow them to switch the last 3 mastery to Maneuvers.
I think that would be for the best.
Cleave used to be limited to once per turn. So its better now or did they just forget to mention this in the article?
I just came here to say the same thing. A cleave chance on every attack might be too strong though. Pop that on a giant barbarian with rage and elemental damage on every attack and cleave would be epic.
Graze might not be bad either I like the idea of throwing that on the worldtree barb with Battering roots feature. I wonder how we could exploid cleave+sweeping strike battle maneuver+green flame blade to hup to 4 foes within reach with a single attack. 😂😮😅😊 (maybe adding in sweeping strike is a bit much, so we swap battle master+other class stuff to eldritch knight.)
Can a paladin still smite if he misses the attack but deals damage equal to his strength modifier with the graze weapon mastery? Same question for all other bonuses to damage (sneak attack, GWM though it is surely redesigned, spells like hex or hunters mark, etc.). Or do you need to hit with an attack to do any extra damage?
I believe all of those specify that they go off when you _hit_ your target. You are specifically _not_ hitting them when you apply your graze damage.
Will you make a spoiler free review? or already done it and i missed it?
Embargo'd until Aug 3rd but he seems overall positive
So no weapon masteries for the monk?
Flail, whip, quarterstaff.. and most importantly - spear? The strongest factual melee weapon?
So I've not kept up with the playtestsat all.
Was wandering what masteries would be applicable to the whip
I believe the whip had slow on it in the last playtest.
Man... I'm gonna need to play with it a little to get a feel for it, but this still sounds like the most milktoast, unexciting buff for martials.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the Vex property RAW essentially mean that as soon as you hit an attack with that property, you’ll be able to just keep attacking with Vex weapon(s) and have advantage on every attack, unless you stop attacking for some reason or get unlucky enough to miss an attack even with advantage? Sounds to me like crit fishing builds will have a field day with this one…
So, weapons with versatile should have gotten *Flex* as a property that allows them to have two properties depending on wether they wield it one handed or two handed.
So, quarterstaff could get _Topple_ for one handed and _Push_ for two handed. Battleaxe could get _Slow_ for one handed and _Graze_ for two handed.
The entire play of versatile weapons is that you can pick one handed with extra AC or two handed for a bit more damage. In my experience people pick one and stick with it. Not using the versatile property mid combat if at all. Bot changing their one-handed or two-handed use. Having the properties change would incentivize players to use versatile weapons' mediocre damage die compared to heavy weapons as it actually makes the weapon *Versatile*.
I wish Push specified "a creature one size larger than you or smaller" instead of "large or smaller" to account for abilities that let you grow in size.
Offtopic: Have you considered a Barbarian 2 + Paladin 2 + Clockwork Soul 6. I was thinking about it, and you can still smite with the paladin feature, and "Restore Balance" actually works well with "Reckless Attack", and the 6th level ward feature of the clockwork soul would allow the barbarian to use sorcery points to augment their hit points. Pick up polearm master and you can still have 2 attacks. Did you already do a video on this? Also, I wonder how this will change with the new D&D rules? I know that sorcerer /paladin builds are popular, but usually divine soul is what's discussed, I wouldn't mind seeing other builds explored up to higher levels.