2 sorcery points is not a lot but quickened spell once a day or subtle twice a day plus the ability to switch them around a bit every API. It is so clutch queen you need it.
Yeah, metamagic adept is basically a 3 level sorcerer dip for casters. Sorcerers are just a worse wizard prior to that point. It's like if you didn't have rage or sneak attack until level 3, you essentially would have been a worse fighter over those levels
@@chrislieu6757 I'm not a fan of quickened spell for metamagic adept (I think it's a great option for sorcerers, though) because the cost is high for such a limited metamagic pool... but Subtle Spell and Extended spell at high lvls are very useful. Wasting high lvl spell slots is a terrible feeling and subtle spell is the most guaranteed way to prevent that.
@@elliotbryant3459 I disagree... Metamagic adept still doesn't open most of the better uses of metamagic - or open those options, but just once while sorcerers could do it multiple times. Also: sorcerers have a "free feat" being the only full casters proficients in con saves. They also have access to better options to multiclass, and have more roles they can play in a party. They should have a worse spell selection than wizards, because than can cast those spells more efficiently. The PHB sorcerer was too weak, but Tasha's sorcerers correction was overtuned IMO. I wouldn't say sorcerers are straight up mechanically better than wizards, but they're very close and they're much more flexible.
@@tmzFRM I prefer distant and subtle myself. Could be a case of the encounters I'm in being unorthodox, or tending towards staying far out of the mid-ranges of combat, but being able to drop down a spell on someone despite them being too far, or counterspell an enemy who's out of range, casting a 120ft range or even targetting someone else (and even ensuring I don't get counterspelled unless they have distant too!) is just too nice for me to pass up. That, and being able to distant spell an already massively long ranged spell like Dimension Door has been exceedingly useful.
The fact that chef is a whole feat, and it's pretty limited, and inspiring leader has a non-trivial pre-requisite and is also a feat just makes me think how the fuck twilight cleric ended out the way it did.
Honestly, Chef is pretty close to being a great Feat. If treats simply granted "1d6+Prof" Temp HP it'd feel way better taking even though that isn't a huge increase.
@@Twisttheawesome The feat says that you gain a set of treats at the end of a long rest OR after an hour of work, so with little effort you can create more treats throughout the day and give out double or triple the amount of temp HP then just one set. Xanathar's also lets you use the cooking utensils to create meals during a short rest to give an additional +1 HP per Hit Dice spend for anyone that eats one of your meals. When combines with this feat, means that you're giving out at least 1d8+1 HP to anyone who eats one of your meals and spent a Hit Dice during a short rest
The only thing I've ever been able to think was that the writing team got drunk scrambling to finish the Cleric section of Tasha's right before the deadline. They took the unplayable Twilight UA Cleric--which understandably was throwing some wild concepts at the wall for playtesting--and effectively changed a couple nominal things to make it look like they edited the subclass meaningfully. And don't even get me started on the Peace Domain. That makes Shield and Wall of Force seem like reasonable and balanced spells. 😂
I am guessing the reason Metamagic adept gives you two options while Erdrich adept gives you one invocation is because the designers figured the invocations are mostly features that are always on while the metamagic only gives you one or maybe two things you can do a day. I am not saying it is necessarily correct or balanced but I think I can see how they came to that conclusion.
Yeah, the real limitation of Metamagic Adept is that it only gives you 2 sorcery points. The 2 metamagic options just give you different options in how you use those 2 points. In other words if metamagic only gave you one option, the feat wouldn't be half as strong, but if eldritch adept gave you 2, it would be (almost) twice as strong.
@@Zecteiro I honestly think it could be good enough if it just let you use your character level as your warlock level for prerequisites, and also let you swap out your invocation on level-up.
Chef is one of the few unoptimized feats I'll consider. Sometimes, it just makes sense for the character more so than the build (example: I played a galley chef in a pirate campaign, so yeah, I needed this feat).
I like the existence of flavorful feats. Sometimes a feat (or background, or class feature) doesn't need to be optimal to be perfect for your character.
Took Chef on my barb as part of his back story. I think for the RP feats, it kinda behoves the DM to lean into them...like if I don't have the ability to find or make some kinda magical spatula weapon, I will be miffed lol.
@@someusername9591yeah this says more about how little barbarians get at level 9 than about the strength of the tasha's feat, seeing as a phb race gets the same feature
Proficiency in Guns is definitely undervalued at 4. They have the highest damage dice of any ranged weapon, and the massive drawbacks they have are completely removed by the feat.
Absolutely agree here. Getting d8 instead of d6 weapons was worth 10 points on Dual Wielder. Gunner upgrades what would have been a longbow user with a d8 to a musket user with a d12. A heavy crossbow user would be d10 to d12, but most builds that have a reason to use heavy crossbows either already have firearms (Artificers with Returning Shot) or would benefit more from using a hand crossbow (anything with CBE and a free bonus action).
I suspect you know this, but, not copy-pasting an intro to these for each entry really improves the watching experience, compared to series' of the past. Still loving the channel Chris, keep up the great videos! :)
I think there are always caveats to these rankings: it can depend on your class. Metamagic adept is probably better for sorcerers than other classes, counter-intuitively. And Eldritch Adept is basically a must have for an abjuration wizard.
Especially if you're a forgetful player. Every time we talk to an important NPC I regret that I didn't think of casting Detect Thoughts before approaching them, since casting it in the middle of a conversation would be too obvious.
@@patrickbodiou3357 I would guess that most DM's wouldn't be playing with UA but, even a non Warlock but still Spellcaster like Sorcerer or Paladin, can get some major game changing Invocation. My Sorcerer could pick up MoMF and they suddenly can become an infiltrator or scout kind of player. Just Cantrip spamability. Or a Paladin getting Eldritch Sight to just cast Detect Magic constantly to help the party avoid magical traps. Any Caster or Half Caster can benefit in some way, which those make up more than half of the available classes
Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Eldritch Sight can also be very powerful. Having a character that just always senses all magic, or one that can read anything regardless of language or legibility, can easily trivialise some campaigns.
If you're doing a 2-3 level warlock dip (because who doesn't?) and want to take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast (because who doesn't?) but also want something to assist the warlock's limited spell slot allotment, Eldritch Adept becomes much more attractive. This may be because I play a lot of political intrigue campaigns, but I really like the idea of being able to cast Silent Image or Disguise Self at will, or having a ritual book to which I can add any ritual from any class. 😉
Small correction about the Chefs feat. The treats are created at the end of a long rest OR after a hour of work. This means that you can create more treats throughout the day. Depending on how you view the 2 hours of light activity during your long rest, you can more treats before you even start the day.
An elf with trance can make 45 Temp HP worth of trail mix every long rest at level 5. Not sure it’s automatically stronger than telekinetic or fey-touched, but Chef can be weirdly good
Wow, I've overlooked that optional hour of work. Which I'd say definitely isn't light or non-strenuous activity for a Short/Long rest, but not everyone needs to short rest while the party is spending an hour to. Anytime there's just extra downtime before/after adventuring allows for many more sets of treats. The Cooking Utensils I feel are usually overlooked too. While anyone can grab this proficiency through Background, it does improve short rest Hit Die recovery further. You and 5 others can get +1hp per Hit Die spent. Just need your tools and the food in supply.
@@tatewalquist7523 I'm not saying it's as good or better then telekinetic or fey-touched, but sense you can easily repeat the process throughout the day to easily double or triple the temp HP and the extra benefits from Xanathar's (that he might not have included in the analysis), it can inch up a little bit higher.
@@Guyoverthere07 I know that I was pushing it a little with the idea of using it during a long or short rest, but you got the idea that I was going for. With little effort, you can easily double or triple the temp HP you can give out. I thought about mentioning the extra benefits you gain from Xanathar's, but I wasn't sure if he wasn't considering Xanathar's because it's kind of optional, but that definitely raises every tool proficiency.
For a warlock 1 extra invocation in the early levels (or when just dipping) is hugely useful as you don't have many from the class progression yet. So if you are starting with a feat, at level 4 or just dipped a handful of level into warlock you getting a very large boost. Plus the variety of invocations that available to the non-warlock may be a bit more limited, but there are some really really really great options, some that you can quite easily turn into quite broken power party wide combos at the cost of 1 feat...
A nitpick: You gave War Caster 30 points for giving advantage on concentration checks, but only 25 points to Eldritch Adept, which can give you the Eldritch Mind invocation. Obviously that would be silly to do if you could just take War Caster and get the other features, but it also has like 10 other options even with 0 levels in Warlock.
Ignoring everyone else's much higher praise of eldritch adept, at the very least putting it below lightly armored makes no sense at all, because mage armor at will is almost universally better than light armor proficiency. The only benefits to lightly armored I can think of are antimagic fields, magical armor, and if for some reason you want to also take moderately armored (please don't anyone do this)
Lightly Armored mostly gets its points from increasing an ability score (probably Dex), while Eldritch Adept doesn't give anything beside the Eldritch Invocation.
Skill Expert is a personal favorite of mine to round out a character concept. A fair assessment on it's own but in some cases it can really make a concept complete, which shouldn't be underestimated (but of course shouldn't show up in an objective score either)
You underrated Eldritch Adept at 25 - you rated concentration advantage for War Caster at 30 points, but Eldritch Adept: Eldritch Mind gives you that in more cases (for non damage concentration checks like Sleet Storm), those come up rarely and are DM-dependant, but I would rate it at 35. There's some versatility here: you could instead choose an at-will first-level spell (Silent Image and Disguise Self are good, False Life, Detect Magic is ok, Mage Armor or Speak with Animals are so-so) plus there's Devil's Sight and Gaze of 2 Minds to consider. And, (like in Fighting initiate), you can change the invocation choice on feat levels. Even if we give it 5 for versatility, 40 is a mid C-tier.
Eldritch Adept (for the Eldritch Mind invocation) is my top priority feat on any mage for who the two other traits of War Caster is redundant due to not carrying a shield and avoiding melee combat (i.e., having a hand free for somatic components and not being in a position to make opportunity attacks). My DM is very fond of the following paragraph (PHB, p. 204): "The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell." Eldritch Mind will remain my favorite feat though you put it in F-tier and War Caster in S-tier. The 2024 PHB might alleviate this so-called mage tax. It seems War Caster will be a half-feat and the Eldritch Mind invocation could be available via a 1-level dip in Warlock.
While Eldritch Adept doesn't give you access to all the invocations. Some of the ones available are more powerful than other feats that are rated above it. Definitely was a little lazy on ranking this one by not taking a hard look at the options available.
Hard agree, it is a wierd feat because it is good in a niche. Him taking fighting initiate but thinking primarily of archers, then not thinking of specific builds for eldritch adept (which core to some builds) feels a bit inconsistent
Agreed, and the shear versatility of the invocations should be worth some extra points - its a feat that lets you get features better than in many other feats, and not be locked into that one feature forever. And being able to choose which spell-casting ability should be worth a bump too, as it opens up that highly versatile feat's supplied spell options to the druid etc - they may well want Silent image to round out their skillset right now, but definitely don't want it on their wrong score... Plus even if you are getting levels in warlock an extra invocation is often of outsized effectiveness as you don't actually get to choose very many until you have many levels of warlock, I'd say once you hit 4 maybe 5 invocations you have probably got all the ones you could consider 'required' for whatever build you are doing and the rest you may pick up are just are nice to have. But that is 7+ levels of warlock, or you go to level 4 or level 6 and take the feat you can spend levels in other classes for all that lovely frontloaded goodness in the lower levels...
I've seen a lot of people here comment about how other valued Eldritch adapt was and I completely agree. Sure, not everyone wants to take this feat. But there are a lot of different niche options that take this feat and it takes their character to the next level. Mask of many faces on a rogue makes them a master at infiltration. Devil's sight on a shadow monk or shadow sorcerer either redefines how the character works or makes them work much more smoothly at a lower resource cost. Misty visions can revolutionize an illusion wizard and is so busted they had to patch it out of the game. Even for non wizards Misty visions in the hands of a clever player can lead to incredible feats of deception. Armor of shadows has a similarly character defining impact on abjuration wizards. I think any of these options make it worthy of the same kind of consideration given to martial adept at the very minimum.
That was a serious undervaluation of Eldritch Adept. The choice is limited, but the choice is also really *good*. Some of those first-level invocations are build-defining, like Devil's Sight, or just give at-will access to incredibly good spells like mage armour, silent image or disguise self. The fact that you then go on to value Fighting Initiate so much higher despite both being one-ability feats, and purely on the merits of 2 additional to-hit on ranged attacks, just shows that this list seems massively over-weighted towards purely combat-applicable feats.
I don't disagree that some invocations are better than he's giving them credit for, but you missed that the Archery fighting style gives +2 to to-hit, not damage, and that's really big.
If you are able to avoid a fight or get some other benefit with a good use of silent image or disguise self, it feels super neat. But I find it hard to call them build defining as there will also be plenty of situations where these will not help you at all. That is why I agree with the score. I have taken eldritch adept before for disguise self at will, but that was for the fun of it. For a hard combat campaign, I would never take it. Now you are going to say I value stuff towards combat and that is correct. If I die or underperform in the first combat of a hard combat campaign, silent image or disguise self (being able to help me out of some situations, but being useless in others) is not doing me any good. At the end of the day this is an optimisation channel. You win at dnd because of the fun you have, but you lose when your character dies. Thats how things are weighted from my point of view.
An interesting limitation of Eldritch Adept is that it requires you to have the spellcasting or pact magic features. It can't be taken by any Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Rogue, except for Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, or multiclassers. I think this is the biggest limitation of the feat. To those martial classes, this feat would be massively valuable. However, most other spellcasters either already have access to what Eldritch Adept offers, or have better options. I think the only reason I would take this is to add Devil's Sight onto a character, which is super situational unless your party uses Darkness or related spells much more often than usual. The only uses for this feat are super situational utiliity options or allowing the Warlock to gain more invocations (most low-level Warlocks will want this, and most high-level Warlocks will regret taking it, which isn't great). I think Treantmonk may have been overly generous here
Piercer does have a polearm option to make use of its reroll feature. Eldritch adept offer two abilities that aren’t available elsewhere; permanent mage armor to mimic the hardened skin of that unarmored boxer fighter I’ve always wanted to do, and the ability to see in magical darkness.
I can't help but feel you undervalue Eldritch Adept. For a non Warlock there are many options for solid at will 1st lvl spells. Spell granting feats tend to get around 17 points for casting such spells once per LR, so I think the 'at will' should increase the value substantially. For Warlocks, yes there is a good chance they alredy have the essentials, however the same could be said for archery from figting initiate for bow users. Why does FI get full points for it's strongest option, despite very possibly being redundant, meanwhile EA gets points reduced because someone who might want the feature, might alredy have it? I don't know the explanation of EA and FI almost back to back just struck me as really odd.
Something people forget about Eldritch adept and Eldritch Invocations is they have character level requirements, not warlock level requirements. The options really open up at higher levels.
@@Apfeljunge666 Ascendant Step Prerequisite: 9th level Far Scribe Prerequisite: 5th-level warlock, Pact of the Tome feature Chains of Carceri Prerequisite: 15th level, Pact of the Chain feature I checked the Sage Advice compendium and didn't find such ruling. The quoted text above is from DnD beyond. Note the different wording for the pre reqs. Only Far Scribe specifically calls out Warlock levels.
@@endtimer1 "A level prerequisite refers to your level in this class." it wasnt in the SAC, this is in the actual rules text preface for all Invocations
@@endtimer1 If you look again at the feat, it says for any invocation with pre-requisites that "you must be a warlock who meets the requurements." It's an easy mistake to make, but those high level invocations aren't supposed to be available from the feat.
The save dc for the telekinetic shove being based on the ability score you increased with the feat is a really weird quirk. It just randomly railroads you into making sure you increase your spellcasting ability
Following this series, I'd love to see some optimized builds which feature the C, D, and F feats. Some of them have circumstantial but potentially powerful features that could be interesting to build around, e.g. metagmagic adept, eldritch adept, or skulker.
I'm loving this series though I with Tash'a and Xanathar's were coded different colors. Because I think more of Tasha was A and S compared to Xanathar's. Also eldritch adept you can swap the invocation each level at least. Devil's sight is possible worth a feat.
With the chef feat, its third trait is one of those that the more short rests you perform the more you get out of it, so I’ll say if you are in a group that does 2 or more short rests this feats worth increases especially if you run the games rules as written and only get half your hit dice back per long rest and you end up spending them. In such a scenario take the 6 points granted and multiply it per short rests taken to get its proper value in that adventuring day.
Elf race is another great combo, as RAW you can trance for 4 hours and then make trail mix for the next 4 hours during a long rest. At level 5, you’ve got 45 temp HP to distribute amongst the party, which is really quite comparable to Inspiring Leader, especially as a half-feat.
Skill expert is great, esp at high levels. Monster saves scale well (maybe too well) but expertise on grapples or other checks (either spells or class features which use it) is great.
I completely disagree about Chef, basically you get a free HD every short rest and if you have a bard in the party you combine it w/ Song of Rest to get 2. At lower levels this is absolute gold
And if you use the rules for Xanathar's about Cooking Utensils, each one of those dice heals an extra HP. 3 free HP when you rest at low level is like basically another HD as well (since you have to spend 1HD to get the extra 2HD).
OK, which would you rather...a +2 to hit only with ranged weapons, or a +1 to hit with ranged and finesse weapons, +1 damage with ranged and finesse weapons, +1 to armor class, and a +1 to initiative? Unless I am creating a very specific archer build, why would I ever take Fighting initiate over a 2 pt dex ASI? or even possibly a dex half feat? No, fighting initiate is WAY overrated. I'd easily switch that and eldritch adept. At low levels, you can have 8 temporary hit points at all times with Fiendish Vigor, then switch it out at each level (need something specific for the next part of campaign?), not to mention all the other invocations already mentioned...MOMF, EotRK, Devil's Sight, Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight...
I have been surprised with how many worth while feats are placed in D and F tiers. I have been at tables where Skilled has been really useful. Skill monkey builds can really excel in certain kinds of campaigns. That said skills are GM dependent. The GM has to provide opportunities. The question to ask with skills is, "is this skill check only happening because I have proficiency?" If the answer is yes, then skills are worse than useless. However that is metagamy. If a skill check on the other hand never comes up, well then sure, I agree with Treantmonk. I am surprised that Keen Mind is higher than Magic Initiate. Seriously, having Cantrips such as Mold Earth, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion are all way more useful than what Keen Mind has to offer. Additionally first level spells are nothing to scoff at. Mage Armor, Shield, Healing Word, Find Familiar, Bless, etc are all solid picks.
So a 1st level artificer spell(Artificer initiate 20p) once/LR that can be cast with spell slots; is worth *more* than a free misty step(Fey touched 18p) once/LR that can be recast? How does that make sense? :S
Metamagic Adept is too nerfed y limiting you to just 2 sorcery points. I'd like to at least see SPs equal to your proficiency bonus. The only thing 2SPs are good for is Subtle twice a day or twinning a 2nd level spell once, or two times for a cantrip or 1st level spell- if they even qualify. Pretty pointless for anyone other than a Sorcerer, and pretty weak for them still.
I think you rated Fighting Initiate way to high. If I really wanted a fighting style for my character, nine times out of ten I'd just take a level in Fighter, since you get a fighting style at level 1 anyways. That way you don't have to give up a whole ASI/Feat just to get a single fighting style. Plus, you get all the other goodies that a level in Fighter gets you.
My issue with Tasha’s is that other than some really strong phb feats, almost all the feats I’d regularly use are in Tasha’s. In particular, fey touched and telekinetic are both just so strong on casters.
Are you sure you should rank Artificer Initiate better than Magic Initiate, when MI has way better spell lists, more versatility and an extra cantrip ?
Chris only values cantrips slightly higher than a ribbon, despite they can define a play style, e.g., a Cleric with Booming Blade or Thorn Whip to trigger Spirit Guardians; or a Ranger with Shillelagh to focus on Wisdom (combined with the Dueling or Defense fighting style). Not being able to cast the MI spell again with your own spell slots just feels super bad though, so I would award more points to the cantrips than the 1st-level spell.
Yeah, the artificer spell list is nothing to write home about especially for repeat castings. Absorb Elements for a cleric or paladin, Sanctuary or Cure Wounds for a wizard, longstrider or some other spell you could already access for everyone else?
@@SortKaffe I mean it is bad that you "cant" cast it again with your own slots, but honestly is there a DM that wouldnt allow that? That would be crazy. I picked Magic initiate as a human paladin to have guidance, light and one free casting of bless(since I'm playing more of a support paladin because I don't want to overshadow my party) and my dm said that's how most dms do with magic initiate...I did the same when ran a campaign last year
I get only giving players one evocation versus two meta magics. Depending on the evocation check you use, you can potentially get a lot of uses out of it per day (mask of many faces, devil's sight) whereas you are using your metamagic maybe twice a day.
Chef is underrated. You can keep cooking a bunch of treats (w/ a torch [1 cp] & on the move) and the treats mitigate that amount of damage via THP & with their own BA.
That's a very.....flexible...reading of the feat! But I've gotta admit the text does seem to leave that possibility open....and it does make me smile when I imagine how one could cook food with a buring torch while on the march.
Great work, Chris! Really appreciate that you're brave enough to put a number on your evaluations. My one nitpick is about Eldritch Adept, because 1) It's not internally consistent to give the first trait of War Caster (advantage on concentration saves due to damage) 30 points when Eldritch Adept --> Eldritch Mind gives advantage on all concentration saves, including non-damage ones such as Sleet Storm and severe weather/casting while riding a galloping horse/concentrating when a wave crashes over you (last ones are DM dependent, though the wave one is in the PHB around page 203, and weather is kind of implied by Sleet Storm) 2) You didn't mention that the Invocation can be switched every level-up (though you might've considered it in your score?). Contrived hypothetical: Have Resilient (Con) + Devil's Sight at level 4 for Darkness-shenanigans, then switch to Eldritch Mind once you need to roll above 10 on your Concentration saves. Might shore up some otherwise unfun or weak levels in a long campaign, while still reaching an end-state with both advantage and proficiency on concentration saves. That said, it really is to your credit that most comments-including this one-only suggest minor adjustments, when you've tried to make the first single, universal rating system I've seen for such varied effects as "Remember everything the past month" to "Resistance to Cold damage".
These videos are really helpful. I have a document where I write homebrew fixes for the feats I think need it and I'm happy that my judgement isn't too far from your tier list!
I wonder if maybe the minor miss on eldritch adept, as many other have pointed out, is due to the warlock class being really heavily invocation taxed. Agonizing blast is pretty close to a must have on a warlock, and each pact has at least one must have invocation (thirsting blade, book of ancient secrets, voice of the chain master, ok I couldn't think of one for talisman). So a warlock in the early to mid level play is only going to get one or so choice invocations and I would argue that several of them compare favorably with metamagics not named twinned spell.
@@User-he6zd I think voice of the chain master is pretty much a must have. If the DM is playing familiars correctly and in general I think this is true for most tables having plane of existence connection on an imp is much much stronger for scouting and handling certain obstacles than 100 feet on say an owl or even 100 feet on an imp. I think this is where the real power of the pact comes in. Investment is nice too for early level damage boost, and the sprite poison save, but it really drops off towards the back of tier 2. Granted the strength of voice is a bit table dependent, and the strength of investment will be really consistent, but the same can be said of book of ancient secrets which is just straight up a better ritual caster feat which sits in A tier here.
Love your videos, Monk. But for the love of God use a contrast tool to decide the fonts and backgrounds. None of the combos of BG and font have enough legibility. Again, saying this with love.
It's so glaring how many S tier feats are for martial characters, with only War Caster being caster specific. Fey Touched gets better if you're already a caster, sure, but Telekinetic is the no-brain pick for every damn Cleric. Sure, very few people will actually pick Moderately Armored over a single level dip in another class, but Alert and Lucky are present in every single uncreatively optimized build for casters. Martials are so reliant on picking 1-3 of these S-tier feats in order to flourish in battle, rarely having a reason to pick something A-tier or below. And then outside of battle... well, you know the drill, half your party is currently ritual casting while you read these comments.
Can't really agree with that 'Martial are so reliant on' comment - All things like Polearm master are is an easy/obvious way to make a good build, very far from the only way. Sure with how they are scored here many of these easy feats are high scorers into the S tier, but you really don't need them. Also more than a few of the 'martial feats' are great for some spellslingers too - rounding out their abilities or letting them pull some great interactions. You can be very capable as a martial class in battle without - the core class mechanics for most martial have some great and powerful features you can really make shine with a bit of multiclassing, the right tactics and/or some of the lower rated feats here. All looking for something that has a synergy or fills in the weakspots of the class to create a good build of the type you want. So many of the lower rated feats here are really great for martial as they bring that little bit of magic in combat, let you really make use of a tactic (Athlete for instance is really good (I'd argue it should be A tier) - go prone and all the ranged attacks probably miss, plus more mobility to get to the better spots tactically on the map) or let you spend your downtime ritually casting yourself...
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Make a high tier dual wielder, or a shield martial without a spear/quarterstaff. And if you're forced to not be a martial to be a better martial... then something is plain wrong.
@@Thrashlock You really are never forced to be 'not a martial' you have so many great choices that stick to being very martial. Or you can choose to diversify a bit with the feats. And both directions have more than one very valid and capable path.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 I agree that you *can* make a 'valid and capable martial' without S-tier feats, but it just comes with falling behind in combat optimization (the only thing pure martials even get to participate in), and that sucks. Like I mentioned, two very fashionable melee archetypes (sword n board and dual wielders) are just not participating at the top of martials, and being a middle of the road martial more often than not will feel awful to play next to even a half-caster who did take those feats. If you pick a different weapon set up you need to come up with good reasons *not* to take at least one of the compatible S-tier feats. And most of the solutions to making a martial like that better... is making them more like a caster through feats and multiclassing. I find that sad. Many characters concepts just don't get better than 'valid and capable', and the gap between them and 'hiGhLy oPtiMiZed' builds has been nothing but fuel for toxic discourse.
@@Thrashlock Those default "'hiGhLy oPtiMiZed' builds" tend to be complete and absolute trash at something, there is usually a cost to it. Which means those builds generally only work once, or even only on paper. So then you are the most unoptimised build possible when the situation ever stops you pulling off whatever the 'optimal' move. And you really don't have to make a martial more caster like to be really effective, but in a high magic setting really strictly wanting to be magic free is a bit odd. If you insist on no magic at all you are much more likely to take the martial S tier feats, which is why they are there... However as a large part of the only martial classes effectiveness in game comes from their endurance I'd argue its still not actually required. Though if you insist you don't want to splash any magic at all you are running out of options once you get your important ability scores maxed out and yet another ASI/feat to choose... Maybe you should be a cunning killing linguist, with the linguist feat.. Even pure Monk for instance can do a great deal of powerful, cool and useful stuff in combat. Yet they are usually regarded as the weakest of the martial - their big superpower is very much mobility and its a potent one if you have the tactical gameplay skills to make good use of it. A monk with a ranged attack option and/or mobile is going to reliably hit every single turn probably even against flying enemy with their fists - as they can't actually stay far enough away and actually ever hit a PC at all. All whiled quite likely never taking a hit in return... Also in the process the monk can improve the effectiveness of the rest of the team, at least if your play well together. Baiting NPC to group/line up for the lighting bolt, maybe pulling off a stunning stike when it matters, etc. You don't get any massive easily calculated big damage numbers on a round to make you look really great on paper, but that has no actual bearing on how well they handle in game, or the damage output in reality. And the same sort of thing is true of any of the more pure martial options, they just keep on trucking doing whatever they are good at all day. Where the wizard with Shield and misty step might be able to take positional risks to do lots of flashy damage in the first combat of a day and survive. Which is great fun to play, and looks really impressive. However once they run out of those spell slots they are just going to become a squashy cantrip machine entirely reliant on the less flashy party members...
Great list. Interesting that they never made a "Ki Adept" feat to offer a boost to the monk, since nearly every class that has a resource can now be accessed with one of the Adept feats. Go figure.
It can be argued they have less versatile*/impactful passive and crit effects [* though I'm slightly dubious of how valuable Slasher's reducing an enemies speed really is]
@@elliotbryant3459speed slow has been helpful at least to me, especially if you also have a means of negating AoO, or if you're trying to be a wall (per turn so slows on AoO as well). Heck, a blade singer using slasher and ray of frost could slow up to 30ft of movement speed, stacking or splitting as needed at no resources. Then the crit boost is helpful because it could negate some damage you may take.
I think that you are severely underestimating how "free" the temp hp are on the chef feat. You can just eat one treat way earlier than combat and you'll always start a fight with +pb temporary hit points, you essentially gain pb^2 hit points each day (assuming that you are greedy and don't have time to cook extra treats). Naturally I think that the feat is stronger on classes that don't have many sources of temp hp or ways to use their bonus action, its not broken but it should be C tier
Same. I kinda struggled with this too. But for games I run, unless they're first time players, I let them get both asi and feat until they max out their primary ability score and then it's either/or. Part of the reason is my games tend to stay in the lower levels and it really opens up their choices. It's also just fun, and something I'd want as a player. I also let all martials power attack without feats
I am in agreement with Elemental Adept's placing on the list. If a creature is resistant to a damage type, they are probably vulnerable to a different damage type. Let's say the creature is resistant to fire damage. Throw a cold damage spell. One fix that has been proposed is making you ignore damage absorption and dealing half damage to otherwise immune creatures. This actually makes the feat worse as you are dealing lack lustre damage. You could just deal full damage by choosing a different damage type. The problem with elemental adept is that well you are not better at dealing that type of damage and it encourages gimicky single damage type builds. I would add status effects to each of the damage types, or some sort of weaker debuff. There is a lack of imagination on display.
Vulnerabilities are actually really uncommon in this edition. For damage types [excluding bludgeoning, piercing and slashing due to limit spell coverage] there are only 80 monsters [this number includes the republications] with vulnerability on d&d beyond, and for my money, the majority of those vulnerabilities are probably radiant. And many times a creature resistant or immune to fire damage is also resistant to the other elements as well. Also, I wouldn't describe an element focused concept as gimmicky. It's iconic of many characters from fiction.
Damage vulnerabilities were almost entirely eliminated from 5e, only selected creatures have them and half the time it’s not true vulnerability but simply having some of their features suppressed while under one damage type. So really the only real strategy in 5e is to hit harder or more times.
I think Piercer's second feature is overrated here, at least assuming Piercer's third feature is correctly rated. Let's talk about the third feature first. The third feature, if you're using a d6 weapon (the most common being a hand crossbow) is worth about 0.5 DPR without advantage, and 1 DPR with advantage, assuming you have 3 attacks. Pretty straightforward. So...piercer's second feature: how much damage is optionally rerolling one damage die once per round? It's pretty complicated, depends on to-hit chances, and like if you get a 3 on a d6 early in a round do you reroll or do you hold out for a potentially worse die roll? But assuming crossbow expert and sharpshooter, the number I get is roughly...1 DPR. Some turns it will be 2.5 DPR, when you get to reroll a 1. But many turns it will be 0 DPR, when you don't reroll anything. So...0.5 DPR - 1 DPR for the third feature. Roughly 1 DPR for the second feature. No way one of these features is worth 4 points, while the other one is 18 points. They're way too close in damage. Probably 8 points for second feature, 4 points for third feature is correct. Unless of course you are a mounted character dual weilding lances, or something silly. Rerolling damage dice is a lot better with d12s (although crits are also better with d12s). But most of the time when I've seen piercer taken on a serious build, it's taken on a crossbow expert build.
I think this point system is def. skewed. with "Athelete" not being D tier or lower. That being said Eldritch adept "could" be ok IF it weren't worded so specifically. As a Lore Bard you could take E Blast as a magical secret, then take that if it allowed you to get agonizing blast, for a nice ranged cantrip, BUT it says if it has a prereq, you have to be a warlock to take it even if you meet the other stuff. (Like knowing E Blast) I'm considering it IF my DM will allow us to ignore that tiny fact. I'd love to have a ranged cantrip that does good damage at 120'. but time will tell(And I could change my mind anyway since its a ways away.) Meh so many good possibilities anyway
This convinced me to put _Artificer Initiate_ on my necromancer build. Cantrip into _Magic Stone,_ which gives three of your minions better attacks each turn. Level 1 spell into _Faerie Fire,_ which gives *all* your minions advantage on attacks against a group of enemies. And the tool proficiency into _Smith's Tools, Woodcarver's Tools_ or _Alchemist's Supplies_ (get the other two through a custom background), since your minions need them and combined with the spell _Fabricate,_ you can provide it to them for cheap (since _Fabricate_ requires tool proficiency to manufacture items that need it). D-Tier, but surprisingly useful here.
This series gave me an idea: what if you could take two half feats at once, with no ASI? A half feat is +1 ASI, and a (theoretically) smaller feature compared to a full feat. I think if you can do this for half feats without it being busted, that's a good, well balanced feat. Elven accuracy + piercer would be cool, Idk if it's too much. 2x resilient without the ASIs would be busted. And boring, I never want to take resilient because it's just so bland.
Hi treant, about your ranking of the Poisoner feat, you said that the poison is really expensive. I have 2 thoughts about. First, its number of doses is linked to PB, so each dose will cost between 25 to 8 gp. But then... how do you define what's expensive? there isn't really a good guideline on 5e of how much stuff shuold cost. I specially ask because I've been working for months to develop a pricing system, and it has given me nightmare how all over the place 5e economy is.
For me Eldritch Adept is almost a "must pick" on a warlock, I always want more invocations than I can have and being able to(as a v.human) get the Agonizing+Repelling combo at level two while also picking up one of the more utility based invos is awesome.
Telepathic & Telekinetic are weirdly high. Fighting initiate also seems kinda high for what it provides [especially considering it could be achieved with a 1 level dip for non-fighters]. Most characters that want the archery fighting style generally already have access to it, with the exception of rogue, monk and maybe some artificers, blade warlocks or extra-attack bards. The others are just ok to meh. Eldritch Adept is criminally underrated, both it and Metamagic Adept should be solid B tier [Metamagic Adept is basically a 3 level sorcerer dip for a caster] It's weird that the on crit effects of Slasher and Crusher are valued as highly as they are considering they are reliant on a critical hit. Artificer Initiate seems like it should be rated lower than Magic Initiate. You get less variety to choose from, 1 fewer cantrip and the level 1 spell selection is not that hot [absorb elements for a divine caster, sanctuary for a wizard?, detect magic or longstrider for everyone else?]
Eldritch adept can also be used for something like infinite mage armor. Basically, freeing up a spell slot every day. Plus you change it every level. A bit more useful than the math shows I think.
Metamagic Adept is more valuable to me than even the points here show, given its utility to spellcasters. And Telepathic is amazing to have as a Moon Druid as it lets my character remain wildshaped and still capable of communicating with people so I don't have to transform back right away and waste a use of the ability after a combat. Not to mention the hilarious shenanigans of scaring villagers with a 'talking animal' :p
Definitely looking forward to the final results so I can play around with making houserules to rebalance all the feats. It'd be nice for the options to be closer in value so as to encourage more diverse characters builds. So far, it looks like most of the work can be done with pruning unnecessary feats in F and D tier, then gently buffing the ones that remain (as you note, simply adding ability score increases to the lower tier feats may be all they need to compete). Then also review the S tier feats and see if they might be a little too strong. Nobody likes nerfs, but it does sometimes feel like Sharpshooter, GWM, and Fey Touched define the meta a lot more than other feat choices. It'd be nice to see these feats tuned down by a few points to encourage competition between feats
Many of the invocations are passive or at will effects, while metamagic always needs to be paid. So Metamagic Adept gives more options, but You won't benefit from them as often as from one invocation.
May I suggest to add the exact score to each feat (in the next videos ofc)? You did a fantastic job to come out with a point based ranking system it feels a waste to not show it in the actual tier ranking. I don't know if it would screw up the editing but I think it would be useful and gives the due importance to your work
I think the bonus action applying poison is a little redundant. You can poison as many arrows as you want outside of combat. Pulling a poisoned arrow out of your bag doesn't cost an action.
Sorry but the majority of poisons lose their effectiveness after 1 minute so applying it outside of combat is more likely to just end up with you wasting your poison.
@@AtelierGod"the majority of poisons lose their effectiveness after 1 minute" The only poison that loses its effectiveness after a minute is the one created by the poisoner feat. The rest of the poisons found in the DMG do not expire: "Injury poison can be applied to weapons, ammunition, trap components, and other objects that deal piercing or slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a wound or washed off."
I think all viewers should keep in mind, every feat is only as good as you and your party can make it. Telekinetic and Crusher are very good feats, but they diminish in quality a lot when your party doesnt focus on forced movement a lot.
Silly question, but In BG3, they treat ASI increases like a feat. How would an ASI increase score in your feat chart? Like, it seems like for flat stat increases to any, you are ranking it 25 points. Would it be different for a double though? A lot of times you aren't buffing something with an odd in it, so it is actually kinda a 0 net gain. To that end, would an ASI increase still warrant the double 25 score, giving it a 50 at the bottom of A tier?
Maybe it's a misinterpretation, but Eldritch Adept is a lot better as you level up. We are alowed to switch invocations on leveling up. Once Im over 7th level, I take Sculptor of Flesh and get Polymorph once per day. It has no prerequisites other than being 7th level, which our DM rules is not a prerequisite that prevents it from being taken by the feat. Also, 7th level is 7th level. It doesn't specifically say "in Warlock".
Yeah, that's a misinterpretation, but the DM makes the rules. From the RAW, If the invocation has a prerequisite of *any kind* , you can choose that invocation *only if you’re a warlock* who meets the prerequisite. Warlock level wasn't written in the invocations prerequisite text because it would have been unnecessary at the time of publication since they were only available to warlocks at the time. The alternative interpretation of prerequisite would allow a [whatever class] of level 15 to take level a 15 prerequisite invocations, which a multiclassed warlock with that character level can't even do. Also casting the polymorph in this way requires "using a warlock spell slot"
Nice to see how this ranking reflects and confirms my choices/timing of the Feats I picked for my human Aberrant Mind Sorceress. 😊 Fey Touched > Telekinetic > Metamagic Adept
Metamagic is actually much stronger on a sorcerer. It is also much stronger early in gaining more SP for quicken spell and twin spell. 4 metamagic options early is wonderful. Subtle spell and careful spell are excellent. Hypnotic pattern careful spell is so very very encounter ending.
@@curtisridenour I agree, I just valued Telekinetic higher as a Half-Feat, since it gave me the opportunity to round out my Charisma, and gave me something else to do with my Bonus Action. 😊
I think calling Artificer Initiate's spell focus feature a ribbon is maybe a little unfair. I recognize that it's very niche, and we went into this whole thing with "lower ranked feats aren't necessarily bad for every build", but actually that feature is pretty important to one of the more powerful builds in the game. Artificers can't use arcane focuses, and so if you are a wizard splashing artificer and you want your artificer spells to include things like feather fall, grease, or sanctuary, well then this feat is a much much cheaper way to achieve that than not using a shield or taking a second level in artificer, and much less of a mechanical pain than dropping and hotswapping focuses with free actions.
an arti-wizard could use any of their infusions [such as worn mindsharpener armor or an enhanced armor shield] as a focus for the artificer spells, doesn't need take this as a feat tax to function
@@elliotbryant3459 Except that Artificers get infusions at 2nd level, and because artificer spell levels round up when multiclassed, the wizard really prefers only 1 level in artificer
Crusher is super neat if your party is clever with area effects that inflict damage upon entering each turn (like Spirit Guardians). I want to find room for that or Telekinetic on any build, but I try not to be too repetitive
@@SortKaffe Yeah, I'm aware of some of the tech. I still remember the minotaur build Chris made with it. Even trying to run a Sling wielding Swarmkeeper Ranger with the Spike Growth spell in a game. Unfortunatelly not the best tactic considering it's PVP, and most of the matches have been against casters.
I like the content, but I feel like for this series the point rating is super arbitrary and an excuse for you to say some things are bad or good. I don't think people would mind very much if you just said I think this feat is bad because it doesn't do very much ect.
A number of these feats would be better if they were half feats or just had one more feature. I really wish that WotC aimed for A and B tier for everything. No crappy options or S tier (aka too good) for that matter. Alternatively if you're the kind of DM who gives out free feats at level 1, having some of the lower tier feats be on the list with the really high tier ones not on the list would make sense.
Its funny how the designers thought ASIs are over powered compared to almost all feats and made some half feats to compensate. Sure, some feats suck, but some are pretty good despite the lack of ASI boost. Maybe give some feats more features? Tough and Durable (even without the +1 Con) wouldn't be bad for example.
@@slydoorkeeper4783 The designers wanted to have ASIs being the default and feats optional. They ended up not being basically not optional in actual play, particularly for a number of builds. I think having feats and have some being half feats would have been good. It also would have helped alleviate the "race to 20" for stat bumps (say +1 to two stats of choice) to happen at particular levels, e.g., 4, 8, 12, 16, and separate the ASI from feats entirely. Or just get rid of half feats entirely and have feats not be quite as cool but give some nifty feature. Some feats really should just be class features, e.g., the ability to power attack for martials, with power attacking being indexed to the die of the weapon or to tier. If every two handed weapon type basically has to take GWM, it's a tax, not an option.
@@crimfan I'm aware, same thing with multiclassing, that was optional too. Overall, I like how 3.x/pf1e did it. You get feats at every odd level (granted they didn't provide as much as 5e typically has them) and ASI are every 4 levels (granted only a +1 to one instead of a +1 to two or +2 to one). Both of these are tied to character level as well, not a class feature (really hate that design choice, same with extra attack).
Im gonna come in with the unpopular opinion metamagic adept is actually a pretty lack luster feat. I imagine the majority of people who take it take it for quickened spell which means the feat effectively reads "cast one spell that normally is an action as a bonus action once per day" for any non sorcerer. You know what feat also does that? Cartomancer, which not only gives you a bonus action casting of a spell once a day it gives you a massive list of choices thanks to multiclassing rules AND come with a free utility cantrip Prestidigitation and a novel and arguably more useful way to use it.
Taking Metamagic Adept for Quickened Spell is a complete waste. You want to pick up Subtle, Extended, or Empowered as they all cost one so you get 2 casts per day. It is of course a godsend for Sorcerers as you can double your known Metamagics for most campaigns.
Yeah, but they stack so you can have a lot of them. 18 even at level 1, since you get a stack just after a long rest. I wouldn't mind 36 temp HP to spread around at first level. Granted it is 2hp at a time, but when you are a wizard or something with 8hp it matters. Make the treat a ring pop, so you don't need a free hand to eat them. Heck, feed one to your familiar so that it has temp HP now. And it scales up to 324 temp HP at level 17 (yes, 6hp at a time, but you have SO MUCH CANDY). Feed one to every creature that you summon. Heck, have a familiar shove it into someone's mouth if they already use their bonus action. Capping at 8 hours makes sense when you look at it that way. Plus the bonus healing on short rest stacks with Song of Rest, so if you are in a game where such things matters it is extra nice. But in most games it does not matter.
@@AtelierGod I never said you could - I said you could stack having the TREATS. Hence, you only get 2HP at a time per person, but the POOL is up to 36 points, and each person can refresh 2 temp HP a round.
It still means that you can spend one hour of work right before a long rest, and then eat last night's treats first thing in the morning and set out for adventure with both temporary HP and the freshly-made treats you cooked up at the end of the long rest. If they lasted longer, you could really stack up on an endless supply of them whenever you have a few hours of down time.
So again, you contend that S tier feats are "bad" balance, or F tier are bad balance, but in reality it proves that there IS good balance. Some ARE going to be better or worst and not everyone is a optimizer so ONLY loooking or thinking about balance in those terms is a failure of bias. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have higher end feats for higher end games and lower end feats for more relaxed tables. The BROAD swath allows for a greater amount of flexibility and diveristy in play style.
Chris' argument is that it's dull if S-tier spells are must-picks (in order to do decent damage as a martial character) while many F-tier feats don't deliver on the fantasy they promise. Playing at a table with a good mix of optimizers and casual players, I hope that the new PHB lands every class, subclass, species, and feat at around A-tier, such that we can all make build choices based on flavor without worrying about a great disparity in power level.
I'd say Metamagic Adept is worth a couple of extra points because not having to worry about being counterspelled at high lvls is huge for any caster.
2 sorcery points is not a lot but quickened spell once a day or subtle twice a day plus the ability to switch them around a bit every API. It is so clutch queen you need it.
Yeah, metamagic adept is basically a 3 level sorcerer dip for casters. Sorcerers are just a worse wizard prior to that point. It's like if you didn't have rage or sneak attack until level 3, you essentially would have been a worse fighter over those levels
@@chrislieu6757 I'm not a fan of quickened spell for metamagic adept (I think it's a great option for sorcerers, though) because the cost is high for such a limited metamagic pool... but Subtle Spell and Extended spell at high lvls are very useful. Wasting high lvl spell slots is a terrible feeling and subtle spell is the most guaranteed way to prevent that.
@@elliotbryant3459 I disagree... Metamagic adept still doesn't open most of the better uses of metamagic - or open those options, but just once while sorcerers could do it multiple times. Also: sorcerers have a "free feat" being the only full casters proficients in con saves. They also have access to better options to multiclass, and have more roles they can play in a party. They should have a worse spell selection than wizards, because than can cast those spells more efficiently. The PHB sorcerer was too weak, but Tasha's sorcerers correction was overtuned IMO. I wouldn't say sorcerers are straight up mechanically better than wizards, but they're very close and they're much more flexible.
@@tmzFRM I prefer distant and subtle myself. Could be a case of the encounters I'm in being unorthodox, or tending towards staying far out of the mid-ranges of combat, but being able to drop down a spell on someone despite them being too far, or counterspell an enemy who's out of range, casting a 120ft range or even targetting someone else (and even ensuring I don't get counterspelled unless they have distant too!) is just too nice for me to pass up. That, and being able to distant spell an already massively long ranged spell like Dimension Door has been exceedingly useful.
The fact that chef is a whole feat, and it's pretty limited, and inspiring leader has a non-trivial pre-requisite and is also a feat just makes me think how the fuck twilight cleric ended out the way it did.
Honestly, Chef is pretty close to being a great Feat. If treats simply granted "1d6+Prof" Temp HP it'd feel way better taking even though that isn't a huge increase.
If playing survival campaign, it is S tier. But those are rare
@@Twisttheawesome The feat says that you gain a set of treats at the end of a long rest OR after an hour of work, so with little effort you can create more treats throughout the day and give out double or triple the amount of temp HP then just one set.
Xanathar's also lets you use the cooking utensils to create meals during a short rest to give an additional +1 HP per Hit Dice spend for anyone that eats one of your meals. When combines with this feat, means that you're giving out at least 1d8+1 HP to anyone who eats one of your meals and spent a Hit Dice during a short rest
The only thing I've ever been able to think was that the writing team got drunk scrambling to finish the Cleric section of Tasha's right before the deadline.
They took the unplayable Twilight UA Cleric--which understandably was throwing some wild concepts at the wall for playtesting--and effectively changed a couple nominal things to make it look like they edited the subclass meaningfully.
And don't even get me started on the Peace Domain. That makes Shield and Wall of Force seem like reasonable and balanced spells. 😂
I am guessing the reason Metamagic adept gives you two options while Erdrich adept gives you one invocation is because the designers figured the invocations are mostly features that are always on while the metamagic only gives you one or maybe two things you can do a day. I am not saying it is necessarily correct or balanced but I think I can see how they came to that conclusion.
Yeah, the real limitation of Metamagic Adept is that it only gives you 2 sorcery points. The 2 metamagic options just give you different options in how you use those 2 points.
In other words if metamagic only gave you one option, the feat wouldn't be half as strong, but if eldritch adept gave you 2, it would be (almost) twice as strong.
@@benl2140Agreed. I think the best to way to balance Eldritch Adept is giving a +1 to on mental score of your choice.
@@Zecteiro I honestly think it could be good enough if it just let you use your character level as your warlock level for prerequisites, and also let you swap out your invocation on level-up.
Chef is one of the few unoptimized feats I'll consider. Sometimes, it just makes sense for the character more so than the build (example: I played a galley chef in a pirate campaign, so yeah, I needed this feat).
Yeah, one time I was playing a cannibal, so of course I was going to take Chef.
After the Delicious in Dungeon series I bet many will use it for a build as well.
I like the existence of flavorful feats. Sometimes a feat (or background, or class feature) doesn't need to be optimal to be perfect for your character.
Took Chef on my barb as part of his back story. I think for the RP feats, it kinda behoves the DM to lean into them...like if I don't have the ability to find or make some kinda magical spatula weapon, I will be miffed lol.
If you were a galley chef then I'd say you should suck at cooking but be an expert knife fighter.
Piercer’s third trait is level 9 Barbarian class feature. A whole class level.
Repeated three times. Three whole class levels. Can't wait to get my hands on the 2024 PHB instead!
Yikes, I never noticed that, but yeah that hurts!
Craziest part is that even Half-Orcs get that feature at level 1. That's only ONE of their traits btw.
@@someusername9591yeah this says more about how little barbarians get at level 9 than about the strength of the tasha's feat, seeing as a phb race gets the same feature
Tbf, you also generally get a bunch of hit points for your level-up but yeah, brutal critical is shit.
Proficiency in Guns is definitely undervalued at 4. They have the highest damage dice of any ranged weapon, and the massive drawbacks they have are completely removed by the feat.
Absolutely agree here. Getting d8 instead of d6 weapons was worth 10 points on Dual Wielder. Gunner upgrades what would have been a longbow user with a d8 to a musket user with a d12. A heavy crossbow user would be d10 to d12, but most builds that have a reason to use heavy crossbows either already have firearms (Artificers with Returning Shot) or would benefit more from using a hand crossbow (anything with CBE and a free bonus action).
It might be undervalued because guns/ black powder aren't incorporated/ allowed into most campaigns.
Chef is the most flavourful feat in the game
Can't argue, it's pretty sweet (and savoury)
I suspect you know this, but, not copy-pasting an intro to these for each entry really improves the watching experience, compared to series' of the past. Still loving the channel Chris, keep up the great videos! :)
Indeed. It makes it a lot better.
I think there are always caveats to these rankings: it can depend on your class. Metamagic adept is probably better for sorcerers than other classes, counter-intuitively.
And Eldritch Adept is basically a must have for an abjuration wizard.
Correct.
Telepathic: Being able to cast it without componens, through the feat, is a factor.
Especially if you're a forgetful player. Every time we talk to an important NPC I regret that I didn't think of casting Detect Thoughts before approaching them, since casting it in the middle of a conversation would be too obvious.
Eldritch Adept: Misty Vision is a character defining feat.
Same with Devil's Sight, or Eldritch Sight. Or Mask of Many Faces, lots of useful invocations
And if playing with playtest warlock the pact or the blade invocation lack any prerequisite! Very character defining on a paladin...
@@patrickbodiou3357 I would guess that most DM's wouldn't be playing with UA but, even a non Warlock but still Spellcaster like Sorcerer or Paladin, can get some major game changing Invocation. My Sorcerer could pick up MoMF and they suddenly can become an infiltrator or scout kind of player. Just Cantrip spamability. Or a Paladin getting Eldritch Sight to just cast Detect Magic constantly to help the party avoid magical traps. Any Caster or Half Caster can benefit in some way, which those make up more than half of the available classes
Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Eldritch Sight can also be very powerful. Having a character that just always senses all magic, or one that can read anything regardless of language or legibility, can easily trivialise some campaigns.
agreed, eldritch adept is severely underrated in this. devils sight alone makes this 35 for me, plus all the other options you can potentially get.
If you're doing a 2-3 level warlock dip (because who doesn't?) and want to take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast (because who doesn't?) but also want something to assist the warlock's limited spell slot allotment, Eldritch Adept becomes much more attractive. This may be because I play a lot of political intrigue campaigns, but I really like the idea of being able to cast Silent Image or Disguise Self at will, or having a ritual book to which I can add any ritual from any class. 😉
Small correction about the Chefs feat. The treats are created at the end of a long rest OR after a hour of work. This means that you can create more treats throughout the day.
Depending on how you view the 2 hours of light activity during your long rest, you can more treats before you even start the day.
An elf with trance can make 45 Temp HP worth of trail mix every long rest at level 5. Not sure it’s automatically stronger than telekinetic or fey-touched, but Chef can be weirdly good
Wow, I've overlooked that optional hour of work. Which I'd say definitely isn't light or non-strenuous activity for a Short/Long rest, but not everyone needs to short rest while the party is spending an hour to. Anytime there's just extra downtime before/after adventuring allows for many more sets of treats.
The Cooking Utensils I feel are usually overlooked too. While anyone can grab this proficiency through Background, it does improve short rest Hit Die recovery further. You and 5 others can get +1hp per Hit Die spent. Just need your tools and the food in supply.
@@tatewalquist7523 I'm not saying it's as good or better then telekinetic or fey-touched, but sense you can easily repeat the process throughout the day to easily double or triple the temp HP and the extra benefits from Xanathar's (that he might not have included in the analysis), it can inch up a little bit higher.
@@Guyoverthere07 I know that I was pushing it a little with the idea of using it during a long or short rest, but you got the idea that I was going for. With little effort, you can easily double or triple the temp HP you can give out.
I thought about mentioning the extra benefits you gain from Xanathar's, but I wasn't sure if he wasn't considering Xanathar's because it's kind of optional, but that definitely raises every tool proficiency.
For a warlock 1 extra invocation in the early levels (or when just dipping) is hugely useful as you don't have many from the class progression yet. So if you are starting with a feat, at level 4 or just dipped a handful of level into warlock you getting a very large boost.
Plus the variety of invocations that available to the non-warlock may be a bit more limited, but there are some really really really great options, some that you can quite easily turn into quite broken power party wide combos at the cost of 1 feat...
A nitpick: You gave War Caster 30 points for giving advantage on concentration checks, but only 25 points to Eldritch Adept, which can give you the Eldritch Mind invocation. Obviously that would be silly to do if you could just take War Caster and get the other features, but it also has like 10 other options even with 0 levels in Warlock.
Fair, I didn't consider that
Ignoring everyone else's much higher praise of eldritch adept, at the very least putting it below lightly armored makes no sense at all, because mage armor at will is almost universally better than light armor proficiency. The only benefits to lightly armored I can think of are antimagic fields, magical armor, and if for some reason you want to also take moderately armored (please don't anyone do this)
Lightly Armored mostly gets its points from increasing an ability score (probably Dex), while Eldritch Adept doesn't give anything beside the Eldritch Invocation.
Skill Expert is a personal favorite of mine to round out a character concept. A fair assessment on it's own but in some cases it can really make a concept complete, which shouldn't be underestimated (but of course shouldn't show up in an objective score either)
The fact that it doesn’t limit which stat you can take makes it a bit better.
You underrated Eldritch Adept at 25 - you rated concentration advantage for War Caster at 30 points, but Eldritch Adept: Eldritch Mind gives you that in more cases (for non damage concentration checks like Sleet Storm), those come up rarely and are DM-dependant, but I would rate it at 35.
There's some versatility here: you could instead choose an at-will first-level spell (Silent Image and Disguise Self are good, False Life, Detect Magic is ok, Mage Armor or Speak with Animals are so-so) plus there's Devil's Sight and Gaze of 2 Minds to consider.
And, (like in Fighting initiate), you can change the invocation choice on feat levels.
Even if we give it 5 for versatility, 40 is a mid C-tier.
Eldritch Adept (for the Eldritch Mind invocation) is my top priority feat on any mage for who the two other traits of War Caster is redundant due to not carrying a shield and avoiding melee combat (i.e., having a hand free for somatic components and not being in a position to make opportunity attacks).
My DM is very fond of the following paragraph (PHB, p. 204):
"The GM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell."
Eldritch Mind will remain my favorite feat though you put it in F-tier and War Caster in S-tier.
The 2024 PHB might alleviate this so-called mage tax. It seems War Caster will be a half-feat and the Eldritch Mind invocation could be available via a 1-level dip in Warlock.
While Eldritch Adept doesn't give you access to all the invocations. Some of the ones available are more powerful than other feats that are rated above it. Definitely was a little lazy on ranking this one by not taking a hard look at the options available.
at will silent image can be the core of an entire character build, if you talk to your DM about how you'll run illusions
Hard agree, it is a wierd feat because it is good in a niche. Him taking fighting initiate but thinking primarily of archers, then not thinking of specific builds for eldritch adept (which core to some builds) feels a bit inconsistent
Agreed, and the shear versatility of the invocations should be worth some extra points - its a feat that lets you get features better than in many other feats, and not be locked into that one feature forever. And being able to choose which spell-casting ability should be worth a bump too, as it opens up that highly versatile feat's supplied spell options to the druid etc - they may well want Silent image to round out their skillset right now, but definitely don't want it on their wrong score...
Plus even if you are getting levels in warlock an extra invocation is often of outsized effectiveness as you don't actually get to choose very many until you have many levels of warlock, I'd say once you hit 4 maybe 5 invocations you have probably got all the ones you could consider 'required' for whatever build you are doing and the rest you may pick up are just are nice to have. But that is 7+ levels of warlock, or you go to level 4 or level 6 and take the feat you can spend levels in other classes for all that lovely frontloaded goodness in the lower levels...
I've seen a lot of people here comment about how other valued Eldritch adapt was and I completely agree. Sure, not everyone wants to take this feat. But there are a lot of different niche options that take this feat and it takes their character to the next level.
Mask of many faces on a rogue makes them a master at infiltration. Devil's sight on a shadow monk or shadow sorcerer either redefines how the character works or makes them work much more smoothly at a lower resource cost. Misty visions can revolutionize an illusion wizard and is so busted they had to patch it out of the game. Even for non wizards Misty visions in the hands of a clever player can lead to incredible feats of deception. Armor of shadows has a similarly character defining impact on abjuration wizards. I think any of these options make it worthy of the same kind of consideration given to martial adept at the very minimum.
That was a serious undervaluation of Eldritch Adept. The choice is limited, but the choice is also really *good*. Some of those first-level invocations are build-defining, like Devil's Sight, or just give at-will access to incredibly good spells like mage armour, silent image or disguise self. The fact that you then go on to value Fighting Initiate so much higher despite both being one-ability feats, and purely on the merits of 2 additional to-hit on ranged attacks, just shows that this list seems massively over-weighted towards purely combat-applicable feats.
I don't disagree that some invocations are better than he's giving them credit for, but you missed that the Archery fighting style gives +2 to to-hit, not damage, and that's really big.
Well 5e is designed around combat
If you are able to avoid a fight or get some other benefit with a good use of silent image or disguise self, it feels super neat. But I find it hard to call them build defining as there will also be plenty of situations where these will not help you at all. That is why I agree with the score. I have taken eldritch adept before for disguise self at will, but that was for the fun of it. For a hard combat campaign, I would never take it. Now you are going to say I value stuff towards combat and that is correct. If I die or underperform in the first combat of a hard combat campaign, silent image or disguise self (being able to help me out of some situations, but being useless in others) is not doing me any good. At the end of the day this is an optimisation channel. You win at dnd because of the fun you have, but you lose when your character dies. Thats how things are weighted from my point of view.
Yep. It's not a top tier feat, sure, but placing it in F... illusionist (and some abjurers) would not approve this X)
An interesting limitation of Eldritch Adept is that it requires you to have the spellcasting or pact magic features. It can't be taken by any Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Rogue, except for Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, or multiclassers. I think this is the biggest limitation of the feat. To those martial classes, this feat would be massively valuable. However, most other spellcasters either already have access to what Eldritch Adept offers, or have better options. I think the only reason I would take this is to add Devil's Sight onto a character, which is super situational unless your party uses Darkness or related spells much more often than usual. The only uses for this feat are super situational utiliity options or allowing the Warlock to gain more invocations (most low-level Warlocks will want this, and most high-level Warlocks will regret taking it, which isn't great). I think Treantmonk may have been overly generous here
Piercer does have a polearm option to make use of its reroll feature. Eldritch adept offer two abilities that aren’t available elsewhere; permanent mage armor to mimic the hardened skin of that unarmored boxer fighter I’ve always wanted to do, and the ability to see in magical darkness.
I can't help but feel you undervalue Eldritch Adept.
For a non Warlock there are many options for solid at will 1st lvl spells. Spell granting feats tend to get around 17 points for casting such spells once per LR, so I think the 'at will' should increase the value substantially.
For Warlocks, yes there is a good chance they alredy have the essentials, however the same could be said for archery from figting initiate for bow users. Why does FI get full points for it's strongest option, despite very possibly being redundant, meanwhile EA gets points reduced because someone who might want the feature, might alredy have it?
I don't know the explanation of EA and FI almost back to back just struck me as really odd.
Played a druid with Feytouched as the variant human perk. I cannot explain how awesome misty step is at character lvl 1. =) So much fun.
I never disagreed with a rating harder than your Eldritch Adept ranking. Its easily 40 points or more
Something people forget about Eldritch adept and Eldritch Invocations is they have character level requirements, not warlock level requirements. The options really open up at higher levels.
@@endtimer1 thats not true. All invocationswith levle requirements have Warlock level requirements. There is Sage Advice to clarify that too.
@@Apfeljunge666 Ascendant Step
Prerequisite: 9th level
Far Scribe
Prerequisite: 5th-level warlock, Pact of the Tome feature
Chains of Carceri
Prerequisite: 15th level, Pact of the Chain feature
I checked the Sage Advice compendium and didn't find such ruling. The quoted text above is from DnD beyond. Note the different wording for the pre reqs. Only Far Scribe specifically calls out Warlock levels.
@@endtimer1 "A level prerequisite refers to your level in this class."
it wasnt in the SAC, this is in the actual rules text preface for all Invocations
@@endtimer1 If you look again at the feat, it says for any invocation with pre-requisites that "you must be a warlock who meets the requurements." It's an easy mistake to make, but those high level invocations aren't supposed to be available from the feat.
The save dc for the telekinetic shove being based on the ability score you increased with the feat is a really weird quirk. It just randomly railroads you into making sure you increase your spellcasting ability
Following this series, I'd love to see some optimized builds which feature the C, D, and F feats. Some of them have circumstantial but potentially powerful features that could be interesting to build around, e.g. metagmagic adept, eldritch adept, or skulker.
I'm loving this series though I with Tash'a and Xanathar's were coded different colors. Because I think more of Tasha was A and S compared to Xanathar's. Also eldritch adept you can swap the invocation each level at least. Devil's sight is possible worth a feat.
They were originally going to be one video, which is why the color is the same.
Not sure if you noticed but the tiles for Xanathar’s and Tasha’s have different coloured boarders. Maybe that helps.
Tools proficiency being worth one point... You can have proficiency in making potions of healing with the herbisim kit which give it a nice boost.
With the chef feat, its third trait is one of those that the more short rests you perform the more you get out of it, so I’ll say if you are in a group that does 2 or more short rests this feats worth increases especially if you run the games rules as written and only get half your hit dice back per long rest and you end up spending them. In such a scenario take the 6 points granted and multiply it per short rests taken to get its proper value in that adventuring day.
Elf race is another great combo, as RAW you can trance for 4 hours and then make trail mix for the next 4 hours during a long rest. At level 5, you’ve got 45 temp HP to distribute amongst the party, which is really quite comparable to Inspiring Leader, especially as a half-feat.
@@tatewalquist7523 Reborn coffeelock.
Skill expert is great, esp at high levels. Monster saves scale well (maybe too well) but expertise on grapples or other checks (either spells or class features which use it) is great.
I completely disagree about Chef, basically you get a free HD every short rest and if you have a bard in the party you combine it w/ Song of Rest to get 2.
At lower levels this is absolute gold
And if you use the rules for Xanathar's about Cooking Utensils, each one of those dice heals an extra HP. 3 free HP when you rest at low level is like basically another HD as well (since you have to spend 1HD to get the extra 2HD).
The blue with blue outline is just not working for me.
I would take metamagic adept if I was playing a life cleric. Double duration for that aura of vitality.
OK, which would you rather...a +2 to hit only with ranged weapons, or a +1 to hit with ranged and finesse weapons, +1 damage with ranged and finesse weapons, +1 to armor class, and a +1 to initiative? Unless I am creating a very specific archer build, why would I ever take Fighting initiate over a 2 pt dex ASI? or even possibly a dex half feat? No, fighting initiate is WAY overrated. I'd easily switch that and eldritch adept. At low levels, you can have 8 temporary hit points at all times with Fiendish Vigor, then switch it out at each level (need something specific for the next part of campaign?), not to mention all the other invocations already mentioned...MOMF, EotRK, Devil's Sight, Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight...
I have been surprised with how many worth while feats are placed in D and F tiers.
I have been at tables where Skilled has been really useful. Skill monkey builds can really excel in certain kinds of campaigns. That said skills are GM dependent. The GM has to provide opportunities.
The question to ask with skills is, "is this skill check only happening because I have proficiency?" If the answer is yes, then skills are worse than useless. However that is metagamy. If a skill check on the other hand never comes up, well then sure, I agree with Treantmonk.
I am surprised that Keen Mind is higher than Magic Initiate. Seriously, having Cantrips such as Mold Earth, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion are all way more useful than what Keen Mind has to offer. Additionally first level spells are nothing to scoff at. Mage Armor, Shield, Healing Word, Find Familiar, Bless, etc are all solid picks.
So a 1st level artificer spell(Artificer initiate 20p) once/LR that can be cast with spell slots; is worth *more* than a free misty step(Fey touched 18p) once/LR that can be recast? How does that make sense? :S
"Hey everyone and welcome to the best Feats in the game" is what I thought I'd hear on the intro
Metamagic Adept is too nerfed y limiting you to just 2 sorcery points. I'd like to at least see SPs equal to your proficiency bonus. The only thing 2SPs are good for is Subtle twice a day or twinning a 2nd level spell once, or two times for a cantrip or 1st level spell- if they even qualify. Pretty pointless for anyone other than a Sorcerer, and pretty weak for them still.
I think you rated Fighting Initiate way to high. If I really wanted a fighting style for my character, nine times out of ten I'd just take a level in Fighter, since you get a fighting style at level 1 anyways. That way you don't have to give up a whole ASI/Feat just to get a single fighting style. Plus, you get all the other goodies that a level in Fighter gets you.
My issue with Tasha’s is that other than some really strong phb feats, almost all the feats I’d regularly use are in Tasha’s. In particular, fey touched and telekinetic are both just so strong on casters.
Are you sure you should rank Artificer Initiate better than Magic Initiate, when MI has way better spell lists, more versatility and an extra cantrip ?
Chris only values cantrips slightly higher than a ribbon, despite they can define a play style, e.g., a Cleric with Booming Blade or Thorn Whip to trigger Spirit Guardians; or a Ranger with Shillelagh to focus on Wisdom (combined with the Dueling or Defense fighting style).
Not being able to cast the MI spell again with your own spell slots just feels super bad though, so I would award more points to the cantrips than the 1st-level spell.
Yeah, the artificer spell list is nothing to write home about especially for repeat castings. Absorb Elements for a cleric or paladin, Sanctuary or Cure Wounds for a wizard, longstrider or some other spell you could already access for everyone else?
@@SortKaffe I mean it is bad that you "cant" cast it again with your own slots, but honestly is there a DM that wouldnt allow that? That would be crazy. I picked Magic initiate as a human paladin to have guidance, light and one free casting of bless(since I'm playing more of a support paladin because I don't want to overshadow my party) and my dm said that's how most dms do with magic initiate...I did the same when ran a campaign last year
I wonder if Treantmonk is working out the bugs in his rating system to do a breakdown of classes/subclasses or spells in the future.
I disagree with the descrepensy between fighting initiate and eldritch adept. How many builds have been based around devils sight alone?
Imagine putting the One DnD Slow mastery on a handaxe and taking the Slasher feat to reduce enemies’ speed by 20 feet with thrown attacks.
Is 1d8 damage on a crit really over 3x worse than giving disadvantage on attacks after crit?
Considering taking Chef after resilient constitution just to bring my constitution to an even number, are there any better half feats that give con?
I get only giving players one evocation versus two meta magics. Depending on the evocation check you use, you can potentially get a lot of uses out of it per day (mask of many faces, devil's sight) whereas you are using your metamagic maybe twice a day.
Chef is underrated. You can keep cooking a bunch of treats (w/ a torch [1 cp] & on the move) and the treats mitigate that amount of damage via THP & with their own BA.
That's a very.....flexible...reading of the feat! But I've gotta admit the text does seem to leave that possibility open....and it does make me smile when I imagine how one could cook food with a buring torch while on the march.
Great work, Chris!
Really appreciate that you're brave enough to put a number on your evaluations.
My one nitpick is about Eldritch Adept, because
1) It's not internally consistent to give the first trait of War Caster (advantage on concentration saves due to damage) 30 points when Eldritch Adept --> Eldritch Mind gives advantage on all concentration saves, including non-damage ones such as Sleet Storm and severe weather/casting while riding a galloping horse/concentrating when a wave crashes over you (last ones are DM dependent, though the wave one is in the PHB around page 203, and weather is kind of implied by Sleet Storm)
2) You didn't mention that the Invocation can be switched every level-up (though you might've considered it in your score?).
Contrived hypothetical: Have Resilient (Con) + Devil's Sight at level 4 for Darkness-shenanigans, then switch to Eldritch Mind once you need to roll above 10 on your Concentration saves. Might shore up some otherwise unfun or weak levels in a long campaign, while still reaching an end-state with both advantage and proficiency on concentration saves.
That said, it really is to your credit that most comments-including this one-only suggest minor adjustments, when you've tried to make the first single, universal rating system I've seen for such varied effects as "Remember everything the past month" to "Resistance to Cold damage".
These videos are really helpful. I have a document where I write homebrew fixes for the feats I think need it and I'm happy that my judgement isn't too far from your tier list!
I wonder if maybe the minor miss on eldritch adept, as many other have pointed out, is due to the warlock class being really heavily invocation taxed. Agonizing blast is pretty close to a must have on a warlock, and each pact has at least one must have invocation (thirsting blade, book of ancient secrets, voice of the chain master, ok I couldn't think of one for talisman). So a warlock in the early to mid level play is only going to get one or so choice invocations and I would argue that several of them compare favorably with metamagics not named twinned spell.
For Chain there are no must haves but Investment of the Chain Master is quite useful
@@User-he6zd I think voice of the chain master is pretty much a must have. If the DM is playing familiars correctly and in general I think this is true for most tables having plane of existence connection on an imp is much much stronger for scouting and handling certain obstacles than 100 feet on say an owl or even 100 feet on an imp. I think this is where the real power of the pact comes in. Investment is nice too for early level damage boost, and the sprite poison save, but it really drops off towards the back of tier 2.
Granted the strength of voice is a bit table dependent, and the strength of investment will be really consistent, but the same can be said of book of ancient secrets which is just straight up a better ritual caster feat which sits in A tier here.
Nerd!
Yes, that's a compliment.
Love your videos, Monk. But for the love of God use a contrast tool to decide the fonts and backgrounds. None of the combos of BG and font have enough legibility. Again, saying this with love.
Colby might disagree with that Chef ranking lol.
It's so glaring how many S tier feats are for martial characters, with only War Caster being caster specific. Fey Touched gets better if you're already a caster, sure, but Telekinetic is the no-brain pick for every damn Cleric. Sure, very few people will actually pick Moderately Armored over a single level dip in another class, but Alert and Lucky are present in every single uncreatively optimized build for casters.
Martials are so reliant on picking 1-3 of these S-tier feats in order to flourish in battle, rarely having a reason to pick something A-tier or below. And then outside of battle... well, you know the drill, half your party is currently ritual casting while you read these comments.
Can't really agree with that 'Martial are so reliant on' comment - All things like Polearm master are is an easy/obvious way to make a good build, very far from the only way. Sure with how they are scored here many of these easy feats are high scorers into the S tier, but you really don't need them. Also more than a few of the 'martial feats' are great for some spellslingers too - rounding out their abilities or letting them pull some great interactions.
You can be very capable as a martial class in battle without - the core class mechanics for most martial have some great and powerful features you can really make shine with a bit of multiclassing, the right tactics and/or some of the lower rated feats here. All looking for something that has a synergy or fills in the weakspots of the class to create a good build of the type you want. So many of the lower rated feats here are really great for martial as they bring that little bit of magic in combat, let you really make use of a tactic (Athlete for instance is really good (I'd argue it should be A tier) - go prone and all the ranged attacks probably miss, plus more mobility to get to the better spots tactically on the map) or let you spend your downtime ritually casting yourself...
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Make a high tier dual wielder, or a shield martial without a spear/quarterstaff. And if you're forced to not be a martial to be a better martial... then something is plain wrong.
@@Thrashlock You really are never forced to be 'not a martial' you have so many great choices that stick to being very martial. Or you can choose to diversify a bit with the feats. And both directions have more than one very valid and capable path.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 I agree that you *can* make a 'valid and capable martial' without S-tier feats, but it just comes with falling behind in combat optimization (the only thing pure martials even get to participate in), and that sucks. Like I mentioned, two very fashionable melee archetypes (sword n board and dual wielders) are just not participating at the top of martials, and being a middle of the road martial more often than not will feel awful to play next to even a half-caster who did take those feats. If you pick a different weapon set up you need to come up with good reasons *not* to take at least one of the compatible S-tier feats.
And most of the solutions to making a martial like that better... is making them more like a caster through feats and multiclassing. I find that sad. Many characters concepts just don't get better than 'valid and capable', and the gap between them and 'hiGhLy oPtiMiZed' builds has been nothing but fuel for toxic discourse.
@@Thrashlock Those default "'hiGhLy oPtiMiZed' builds" tend to be complete and absolute trash at something, there is usually a cost to it. Which means those builds generally only work once, or even only on paper. So then you are the most unoptimised build possible when the situation ever stops you pulling off whatever the 'optimal' move.
And you really don't have to make a martial more caster like to be really effective, but in a high magic setting really strictly wanting to be magic free is a bit odd.
If you insist on no magic at all you are much more likely to take the martial S tier feats, which is why they are there... However as a large part of the only martial classes effectiveness in game comes from their endurance I'd argue its still not actually required. Though if you insist you don't want to splash any magic at all you are running out of options once you get your important ability scores maxed out and yet another ASI/feat to choose... Maybe you should be a cunning killing linguist, with the linguist feat..
Even pure Monk for instance can do a great deal of powerful, cool and useful stuff in combat. Yet they are usually regarded as the weakest of the martial - their big superpower is very much mobility and its a potent one if you have the tactical gameplay skills to make good use of it. A monk with a ranged attack option and/or mobile is going to reliably hit every single turn probably even against flying enemy with their fists - as they can't actually stay far enough away and actually ever hit a PC at all. All whiled quite likely never taking a hit in return... Also in the process the monk can improve the effectiveness of the rest of the team, at least if your play well together. Baiting NPC to group/line up for the lighting bolt, maybe pulling off a stunning stike when it matters, etc.
You don't get any massive easily calculated big damage numbers on a round to make you look really great on paper, but that has no actual bearing on how well they handle in game, or the damage output in reality.
And the same sort of thing is true of any of the more pure martial options, they just keep on trucking doing whatever they are good at all day. Where the wizard with Shield and misty step might be able to take positional risks to do lots of flashy damage in the first combat of a day and survive. Which is great fun to play, and looks really impressive. However once they run out of those spell slots they are just going to become a squashy cantrip machine entirely reliant on the less flashy party members...
Great list. Interesting that they never made a "Ki Adept" feat to offer a boost to the monk, since nearly every class that has a resource can now be accessed with one of the Adept feats. Go figure.
Doesn't piercer also apply to ranged attacks? If so, I'm not sure why you'd rate it lower than the other one.
It can be argued they have less versatile*/impactful passive and crit effects [* though I'm slightly dubious of how valuable Slasher's reducing an enemies speed really is]
@@elliotbryant3459speed slow has been helpful at least to me, especially if you also have a means of negating AoO, or if you're trying to be a wall (per turn so slows on AoO as well). Heck, a blade singer using slasher and ray of frost could slow up to 30ft of movement speed, stacking or splitting as needed at no resources. Then the crit boost is helpful because it could negate some damage you may take.
I think that you are severely underestimating how "free" the temp hp are on the chef feat.
You can just eat one treat way earlier than combat and you'll always start a fight with +pb temporary hit points, you essentially gain pb^2 hit points each day (assuming that you are greedy and don't have time to cook extra treats).
Naturally I think that the feat is stronger on classes that don't have many sources of temp hp or ways to use their bonus action, its not broken but it should be C tier
players usually struggle so hard going for feats instead of ASI. i let them do both and they're much happier and choosing weirdo feats more often
Same. I kinda struggled with this too. But for games I run, unless they're first time players, I let them get both asi and feat until they max out their primary ability score and then it's either/or. Part of the reason is my games tend to stay in the lower levels and it really opens up their choices. It's also just fun, and something I'd want as a player.
I also let all martials power attack without feats
I am in agreement with Elemental Adept's placing on the list.
If a creature is resistant to a damage type, they are probably vulnerable to a different damage type.
Let's say the creature is resistant to fire damage. Throw a cold damage spell.
One fix that has been proposed is making you ignore damage absorption and dealing half damage to otherwise immune creatures. This actually makes the feat worse as you are dealing lack lustre damage. You could just deal full damage by choosing a different damage type.
The problem with elemental adept is that well you are not better at dealing that type of damage and it encourages gimicky single damage type builds.
I would add status effects to each of the damage types, or some sort of weaker debuff. There is a lack of imagination on display.
Vulnerabilities are actually really uncommon in this edition. For damage types [excluding bludgeoning, piercing and slashing due to limit spell coverage] there are only 80 monsters [this number includes the republications] with vulnerability on d&d beyond, and for my money, the majority of those vulnerabilities are probably radiant. And many times a creature resistant or immune to fire damage is also resistant to the other elements as well.
Also, I wouldn't describe an element focused concept as gimmicky. It's iconic of many characters from fiction.
Damage vulnerabilities were almost entirely eliminated from 5e, only selected creatures have them and half the time it’s not true vulnerability but simply having some of their features suppressed while under one damage type. So really the only real strategy in 5e is to hit harder or more times.
Wish artificer initiate got access to one lvl2 infusion. That would make it at least pickable
I think Piercer's second feature is overrated here, at least assuming Piercer's third feature is correctly rated.
Let's talk about the third feature first. The third feature, if you're using a d6 weapon (the most common being a hand crossbow) is worth about 0.5 DPR without advantage, and 1 DPR with advantage, assuming you have 3 attacks. Pretty straightforward.
So...piercer's second feature: how much damage is optionally rerolling one damage die once per round? It's pretty complicated, depends on to-hit chances, and like if you get a 3 on a d6 early in a round do you reroll or do you hold out for a potentially worse die roll? But assuming crossbow expert and sharpshooter, the number I get is roughly...1 DPR. Some turns it will be 2.5 DPR, when you get to reroll a 1. But many turns it will be 0 DPR, when you don't reroll anything.
So...0.5 DPR - 1 DPR for the third feature. Roughly 1 DPR for the second feature. No way one of these features is worth 4 points, while the other one is 18 points. They're way too close in damage. Probably 8 points for second feature, 4 points for third feature is correct.
Unless of course you are a mounted character dual weilding lances, or something silly. Rerolling damage dice is a lot better with d12s (although crits are also better with d12s). But most of the time when I've seen piercer taken on a serious build, it's taken on a crossbow expert build.
I think this point system is def. skewed. with "Athelete" not being D tier or lower. That being said Eldritch adept "could" be ok IF it weren't worded so specifically. As a Lore Bard you could take E Blast as a magical secret, then take that if it allowed you to get agonizing blast, for a nice ranged cantrip, BUT it says if it has a prereq, you have to be a warlock to take it even if you meet the other stuff. (Like knowing E Blast) I'm considering it IF my DM will allow us to ignore that tiny fact. I'd love to have a ranged cantrip that does good damage at 120'. but time will tell(And I could change my mind anyway since its a ways away.) Meh so many good possibilities anyway
This convinced me to put _Artificer Initiate_ on my necromancer build. Cantrip into _Magic Stone,_ which gives three of your minions better attacks each turn. Level 1 spell into _Faerie Fire,_ which gives *all* your minions advantage on attacks against a group of enemies. And the tool proficiency into _Smith's Tools, Woodcarver's Tools_ or _Alchemist's Supplies_ (get the other two through a custom background), since your minions need them and combined with the spell _Fabricate,_ you can provide it to them for cheap (since _Fabricate_ requires tool proficiency to manufacture items that need it).
D-Tier, but surprisingly useful here.
This series gave me an idea: what if you could take two half feats at once, with no ASI? A half feat is +1 ASI, and a (theoretically) smaller feature compared to a full feat. I think if you can do this for half feats without it being busted, that's a good, well balanced feat. Elven accuracy + piercer would be cool, Idk if it's too much. 2x resilient without the ASIs would be busted. And boring, I never want to take resilient because it's just so bland.
Hi treant, about your ranking of the Poisoner feat, you said that the poison is really expensive. I have 2 thoughts about. First, its number of doses is linked to PB, so each dose will cost between 25 to 8 gp. But then... how do you define what's expensive? there isn't really a good guideline on 5e of how much stuff shuold cost.
I specially ask because I've been working for months to develop a pricing system, and it has given me nightmare how all over the place 5e economy is.
For me Eldritch Adept is almost a "must pick" on a warlock, I always want more invocations than I can have and being able to(as a v.human) get the Agonizing+Repelling combo at level two while also picking up one of the more utility based invos is awesome.
Telepathic & Telekinetic are weirdly high.
Fighting initiate also seems kinda high for what it provides [especially considering it could be achieved with a 1 level dip for non-fighters]. Most characters that want the archery fighting style generally already have access to it, with the exception of rogue, monk and maybe some artificers, blade warlocks or extra-attack bards. The others are just ok to meh.
Eldritch Adept is criminally underrated, both it and Metamagic Adept should be solid B tier [Metamagic Adept is basically a 3 level sorcerer dip for a caster]
It's weird that the on crit effects of Slasher and Crusher are valued as highly as they are considering they are reliant on a critical hit.
Artificer Initiate seems like it should be rated lower than Magic Initiate. You get less variety to choose from, 1 fewer cantrip and the level 1 spell selection is not that hot [absorb elements for a divine caster, sanctuary for a wizard?, detect magic or longstrider for everyone else?]
Eldritch adept can also be used for something like infinite mage armor. Basically, freeing up a spell slot every day. Plus you change it every level. A bit more useful than the math shows I think.
Skill Expert can be really good for wizards/tomelocks. Expertise in Arcana makes you dramatically better at copying scrolls into your spell book.
Metamagic Adept is more valuable to me than even the points here show, given its utility to spellcasters. And Telepathic is amazing to have as a Moon Druid as it lets my character remain wildshaped and still capable of communicating with people so I don't have to transform back right away and waste a use of the ability after a combat. Not to mention the hilarious shenanigans of scaring villagers with a 'talking animal' :p
Definitely looking forward to the final results so I can play around with making houserules to rebalance all the feats. It'd be nice for the options to be closer in value so as to encourage more diverse characters builds.
So far, it looks like most of the work can be done with pruning unnecessary feats in F and D tier, then gently buffing the ones that remain (as you note, simply adding ability score increases to the lower tier feats may be all they need to compete).
Then also review the S tier feats and see if they might be a little too strong. Nobody likes nerfs, but it does sometimes feel like Sharpshooter, GWM, and Fey Touched define the meta a lot more than other feat choices. It'd be nice to see these feats tuned down by a few points to encourage competition between feats
Eldrich adept can give large bonuses, 120 feet of magical darkvision, cast a 1st level spell at will, etc way better than F.
Many of the invocations are passive or at will effects, while metamagic always needs to be paid. So Metamagic Adept gives more options, but You won't benefit from them as often as from one invocation.
Skill Expert is just so much better than Prodigy or Skilled, it highlights the issues around Feat design to an bonkers degree...
May I suggest to add the exact score to each feat (in the next videos ofc)? You did a fantastic job to come out with a point based ranking system it feels a waste to not show it in the actual tier ranking. I don't know if it would screw up the editing but I think it would be useful and gives the due importance to your work
Piercer: calling a 50% damage boost on a crit a ribbon feature? Seriously?
Is ASI worth fifty points and id love for it to get a section to talk about why you take it primary ability bump etc.
Piercer's Brutal Crit-like ability being considered a ribbon? A bit of an insult.
Chef is a fun feat, always a joy to cook monsters. :P Mimics make a good soup.
I think the bonus action applying poison is a little redundant. You can poison as many arrows as you want outside of combat. Pulling a poisoned arrow out of your bag doesn't cost an action.
True, but the poison is only good for 1 minute
The only character I took that feat on was a Geralt knockoff applying it to melee weapons.
Sorry but the majority of poisons lose their effectiveness after 1 minute so applying it outside of combat is more likely to just end up with you wasting your poison.
@@AtelierGod"the majority of poisons lose their effectiveness after 1 minute"
The only poison that loses its effectiveness after a minute is the one created by the poisoner feat. The rest of the poisons found in the DMG do not expire:
"Injury poison can be applied to weapons, ammunition, trap components, and other objects that deal piercing or slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a wound or washed off."
I think all viewers should keep in mind, every feat is only as good as you and your party can make it. Telekinetic and Crusher are very good feats, but they diminish in quality a lot when your party doesnt focus on forced movement a lot.
Fey Touched should ranked higher man. Come on!
So glad my favorites are s or a tier. Won't have to unsub haha
Silly question, but In BG3, they treat ASI increases like a feat. How would an ASI increase score in your feat chart? Like, it seems like for flat stat increases to any, you are ranking it 25 points. Would it be different for a double though? A lot of times you aren't buffing something with an odd in it, so it is actually kinda a 0 net gain. To that end, would an ASI increase still warrant the double 25 score, giving it a 50 at the bottom of A tier?
Maybe it's a misinterpretation, but Eldritch Adept is a lot better as you level up. We are alowed to switch invocations on leveling up. Once Im over 7th level, I take Sculptor of Flesh and get Polymorph once per day. It has no prerequisites other than being 7th level, which our DM rules is not a prerequisite that prevents it from being taken by the feat. Also, 7th level is 7th level. It doesn't specifically say "in Warlock".
Yeah, that's a misinterpretation, but the DM makes the rules. From the RAW, If the invocation has a prerequisite of *any kind* , you can choose that invocation *only if you’re a warlock* who meets the prerequisite. Warlock level wasn't written in the invocations prerequisite text because it would have been unnecessary at the time of publication since they were only available to warlocks at the time. The alternative interpretation of prerequisite would allow a [whatever class] of level 15 to take level a 15 prerequisite invocations, which a multiclassed warlock with that character level can't even do.
Also casting the polymorph in this way requires "using a warlock spell slot"
Time to start filling out those top two rows!
Looking forward to the rest of the list.
Curious how many points you would give a straight ability score boost?
Nice to see how this ranking reflects and confirms my choices/timing of the Feats I picked for my human Aberrant Mind Sorceress. 😊 Fey Touched > Telekinetic > Metamagic Adept
Metamagic is actually much stronger on a sorcerer. It is also much stronger early in gaining more SP for quicken spell and twin spell. 4 metamagic options early is wonderful. Subtle spell and careful spell are excellent. Hypnotic pattern careful spell is so very very encounter ending.
@@curtisridenour I agree, I just valued Telekinetic higher as a Half-Feat, since it gave me the opportunity to round out my Charisma, and gave me something else to do with my Bonus Action. 😊
Feet tier ranking???😏
I like this video.
I think calling Artificer Initiate's spell focus feature a ribbon is maybe a little unfair. I recognize that it's very niche, and we went into this whole thing with "lower ranked feats aren't necessarily bad for every build", but actually that feature is pretty important to one of the more powerful builds in the game. Artificers can't use arcane focuses, and so if you are a wizard splashing artificer and you want your artificer spells to include things like feather fall, grease, or sanctuary, well then this feat is a much much cheaper way to achieve that than not using a shield or taking a second level in artificer, and much less of a mechanical pain than dropping and hotswapping focuses with free actions.
an arti-wizard could use any of their infusions [such as worn mindsharpener armor or an enhanced armor shield] as a focus for the artificer spells, doesn't need take this as a feat tax to function
@@elliotbryant3459 Except that Artificers get infusions at 2nd level, and because artificer spell levels round up when multiclassed, the wizard really prefers only 1 level in artificer
@@TeaRanosaur That's fair, I took that for granted
Really wasn't expecting crusher or slasher to be that high.
Crusher is super neat if your party is clever with area effects that inflict damage upon entering each turn (like Spirit Guardians). I want to find room for that or Telekinetic on any build, but I try not to be too repetitive
@@SortKaffe Yeah, I'm aware of some of the tech. I still remember the minotaur build Chris made with it. Even trying to run a Sling wielding Swarmkeeper Ranger with the Spike Growth spell in a game.
Unfortunatelly not the best tactic considering it's PVP, and most of the matches have been against casters.
I like the content, but I feel like for this series the point rating is super arbitrary and an excuse for you to say some things are bad or good. I don't think people would mind very much if you just said I think this feat is bad because it doesn't do very much ect.
A number of these feats would be better if they were half feats or just had one more feature. I really wish that WotC aimed for A and B tier for everything. No crappy options or S tier (aka too good) for that matter.
Alternatively if you're the kind of DM who gives out free feats at level 1, having some of the lower tier feats be on the list with the really high tier ones not on the list would make sense.
Its funny how the designers thought ASIs are over powered compared to almost all feats and made some half feats to compensate. Sure, some feats suck, but some are pretty good despite the lack of ASI boost. Maybe give some feats more features? Tough and Durable (even without the +1 Con) wouldn't be bad for example.
@@slydoorkeeper4783 The designers wanted to have ASIs being the default and feats optional. They ended up not being basically not optional in actual play, particularly for a number of builds. I think having feats and have some being half feats would have been good. It also would have helped alleviate the "race to 20" for stat bumps (say +1 to two stats of choice) to happen at particular levels, e.g., 4, 8, 12, 16, and separate the ASI from feats entirely. Or just get rid of half feats entirely and have feats not be quite as cool but give some nifty feature.
Some feats really should just be class features, e.g., the ability to power attack for martials, with power attacking being indexed to the die of the weapon or to tier. If every two handed weapon type basically has to take GWM, it's a tax, not an option.
@@crimfan I'm aware, same thing with multiclassing, that was optional too. Overall, I like how 3.x/pf1e did it. You get feats at every odd level (granted they didn't provide as much as 5e typically has them) and ASI are every 4 levels (granted only a +1 to one instead of a +1 to two or +2 to one). Both of these are tied to character level as well, not a class feature (really hate that design choice, same with extra attack).
Im gonna come in with the unpopular opinion metamagic adept is actually a pretty lack luster feat. I imagine the majority of people who take it take it for quickened spell which means the feat effectively reads "cast one spell that normally is an action as a bonus action once per day" for any non sorcerer. You know what feat also does that? Cartomancer, which not only gives you a bonus action casting of a spell once a day it gives you a massive list of choices thanks to multiclassing rules AND come with a free utility cantrip Prestidigitation and a novel and arguably more useful way to use it.
Taking Metamagic Adept for Quickened Spell is a complete waste. You want to pick up Subtle, Extended, or Empowered as they all cost one so you get 2 casts per day. It is of course a godsend for Sorcerers as you can double your known Metamagics for most campaigns.
The treats from chef only lasting for 8 hours is a baffling decision.
Yeah, but they stack so you can have a lot of them. 18 even at level 1, since you get a stack just after a long rest. I wouldn't mind 36 temp HP to spread around at first level. Granted it is 2hp at a time, but when you are a wizard or something with 8hp it matters. Make the treat a ring pop, so you don't need a free hand to eat them. Heck, feed one to your familiar so that it has temp HP now. And it scales up to 324 temp HP at level 17 (yes, 6hp at a time, but you have SO MUCH CANDY). Feed one to every creature that you summon. Heck, have a familiar shove it into someone's mouth if they already use their bonus action.
Capping at 8 hours makes sense when you look at it that way.
Plus the bonus healing on short rest stacks with Song of Rest, so if you are in a game where such things matters it is extra nice. But in most games it does not matter.
@@RandomToon1you cannot stack temporary hit points, whenever you gain a new set of temporary hit points the old ones are overwritten.
@@AtelierGod I never said you could - I said you could stack having the TREATS. Hence, you only get 2HP at a time per person, but the POOL is up to 36 points, and each person can refresh 2 temp HP a round.
It still means that you can spend one hour of work right before a long rest, and then eat last night's treats first thing in the morning and set out for adventure with both temporary HP and the freshly-made treats you cooked up at the end of the long rest.
If they lasted longer, you could really stack up on an endless supply of them whenever you have a few hours of down time.
I mean, most food is definitely less delicious 8 hours after it was cooked, for a thematic/'flavor' justification for the mechanic anyway.
So again, you contend that S tier feats are "bad" balance, or F tier are bad balance, but in reality it proves that there IS good balance. Some ARE going to be better or worst and not everyone is a optimizer so ONLY loooking or thinking about balance in those terms is a failure of bias. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have higher end feats for higher end games and lower end feats for more relaxed tables. The BROAD swath allows for a greater amount of flexibility and diveristy in play style.
Chris' argument is that it's dull if S-tier spells are must-picks (in order to do decent damage as a martial character) while many F-tier feats don't deliver on the fantasy they promise.
Playing at a table with a good mix of optimizers and casual players, I hope that the new PHB lands every class, subclass, species, and feat at around A-tier, such that we can all make build choices based on flavor without worrying about a great disparity in power level.