Make the MOST POWERFUL party in D&D 5e: 10 Steps
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:20 Background
7:35 The Most Powerful Party
24:08 Wrap up 
Игры
The point at the end about not relying too much on magic reminds me of your video about your One D&D playtest where you played a straight-class playtest Monk. Your character's personal non-reliance on magic is what allowed you to get the anti-magic ray pointed away from the characters that do rely on it.
Good example
Yeah, as much flack as Monk's get for being some of the weakest hitters in the game, they actually do excel at not taking damage or being affected by things that affect everyone else, even in their current iteration. Running up walls and across water, having proficiency in all saving throws, slow fall, evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body, and being able to do pretty much everything in an anti-magic field occasionally has its perks. You just wouldn't want that part of all monks.
Yeah, more than one party that I've played with suffered exactly because of that.
I agree that scouting is key. The number one thing that stalls the table is a lack of information. If a party has a way to gain information with little to no risk, then they'll use that scouting ability to learn what they need to know, and they'll move on to the next scene much faster.
well Chris runs Arcane Eye well and just reveals things quickly. In other campaigns I have to crawl room by room and dislike Arcane Eye quite a bit
@mathguydave3699 I think novelty matters a lot here; if it's a player's first time using the spell, and/or the location is very narratively rich, I would role-playing it out, but otherwise I'm with you
My best scout is a monk/chain warlock with cartography proficiency. Her invisible imp familiar does the scouting with her seeing and hearing through them. She then draws a map for the party to plan around.
If only my players could remember to scout on their own.
1: avoid redundancy (some things cant be redundant, such as single target damage, good saving throws, high ac, but CC / Utility / Scouting / etc. can be redundant if more than 1 player can do it)
2: scouting
3: single target damage
4: utility
5: initiative
6: battlefield control
7: crowd control
8: battlefield re-positioning
9: saving throws
10: condition removal and healing
1. Redundency isnt accurate. Instead aim to fill holes.
Having stuff you dont use isnt a negetive.
Ill say that again having stuff you dont use is NOT a negetive.
There isnt a scorekeeper at the end thay lowers your score because you didnt uae the 6th find familiar.
Plug holes instead.
For example a list of peoblems that could come up with using magic was included. Patch those holes. As an example all the ones he listed for magic problems can be patched with wizard spells, plus the recent antimgic cone oneshot.
Whats super not-redundent is more spellcaster levels for more spellslots. Since that directly converts to more damage.
2.Scribes wizard is ideal for this. Passwall was mentioned. Vortex warp plus scribes wizard creating theirind on the other side of the wall is even better, remember you only use the mind for vision, dont cast through it.
mistystep and dimention door are good here too. Passwall is a great single entry solution but combinations can greatly surpass it.
3. A team of wizards can ideally do it. For example using a scribes wizard to make a fire wall of a good danage type then the other wizards using bigbies hand to grapple and move enemies and crush when free for magical bludgening which is rarely resisted, plus using their actions(bigbies is a bonus each turn) on stuff like high damage cantrips (remember bigbies and flame wall dont care about your stats so you could stack charisma for the warlock cantrip). There is way more to say but there are many ways to insane low counterplay damage using a team of full spellcasters. And avoid dispell and counterspell stuff.
4. wizards are the best at this... in fact since you can get pass without trace through races and command through a dip or feat, and bless through a dip or feat therr is no reason they cant he all wizards and have every utility option
5. Initiative matters a ton yes. But I dont think you realize that the innitative bonuses you get via these innitative features are not worth the investment... they are too low if you do the math.
The same thing applies to trying to get a 20 for your saving throwes... its +15% of the number of total saving throw spells you cast, extra turns compared to a 14.
Which is bad for a 3 full feat investment.
6. Wizards do this the best, a dip or feat for the rest.
7. wizarda do this the best, a dip for the rest.
8. wizards do this the best. More spellslots of scatter, votexwarp and dimention door the better... stack those spellslots.
9. 1 6lvl paladin is great for this. Especially if you use fogcloud or pyrotechnics and blind everyone and guve everyone in the party blindsight using a fighter dip. Then have all your ranged and melee(includin wizards polymorphed or magic jared as a strong martial) in range of the palindin's tiny aura. Truesight doesnt work, and blindsight is insanely rare, and when it does exist its very close range.
That way opportunity attacks dont exist, counterspell doesnt exist, dispell magic doesnt exist unless its used on the obscurity and will just get counterspelled, ect. Very nice to just live clumped un in heavy obsurement around yiur 1 paladin... might aswell all be wizards with the rest.
Also all the game ruining saving throws are int, wis, cha, and con.
start with your wizard level for 2 of those, get resilient as your feat for the other 2, have your paladin cast bells cuz they dont have much stronger to concentrate on, spread your stats since high hp doesnt matter, high offensive saves dont matter, and the other benefits of stats dont matter. They barely improve things and only work if you are getting to play and arnt crowd controled.
The hole is wis, int, cha, and con saving throws... fill that hole.
14 in every one, fill str and dex if you think there is some custom thing coming... otherwise put the rest in con so you get up the con saves since the mathimatical turn savings via that is very big... way more then the turn savings of hitting your offensive saving throws... if your wizard has a high int not con you are wasting more turns... and you dont even get the more common saving throw and a bit of slightly useful hp.
10. very optimal play is like 80% damage negation. Sheild, absorb elements, gift of the chromatic dragon, artificer artilerist sheild every turn via a 3 lvl dip, polymorph, kiting, wall, cc, ect ect.
Most of the fight is amount resources other then hp.
And all characters should have a dip or feat for healing word of course.
Conditional removal should be done via the 1 paladin.
All in all looks like a team of wizards plus 1 paladin will fit your bill... with a few 1 level dips and maybe 3 in the case of artificers.
I will note... you have to put alot of effort into planning so your wizarss coer all the holes. Taking the right subclasses and the right spells on each.
It is not simple to construct an all wizard plus 1 paladin team without holes... especially to certain problems that require very specific things.
But if done it is better.
Its less about having different claasses and subclasses and more about having different objectives.
Your all wizard 1 paladin party can have all the wizards take different jobs. Its just if you get a ream of wizards they probly didnt do that... never mind accounted for all the wizard's typical weakneses with very specific strats.
and even more optimally having each wizard have a tiny bit of everything... so if one goes down you still have the stuff.
Anyways. Hope this is insightful.
@@Dogo.R Having stuff you don't use is a negative, because of opportunity cost. You could have made a different choice and had a spell or class ability or whatever that you DID use.
@@andrewmont5539 This is not inherently the case. This can be the case but in many times it isnt because in many cases things come alongside other things.
Also its always an on average conversation. Most spell caster tools will go unused in most fights... but that doesnt mean they are a wasted "opportunity cost" because in different fights different ones go unused and different amounts of the copies of each get used.
Again the plugging holes logic is ideal.
The only question is is can changing x aspect of the build plug more holes then before, or plug bigger holes then before.
A comment on "#2) Scouting": I have found many-many DMs treat scouting as a personal affront, and do everything they can to stymie it. Suddenly there is a feature that prevents scouting. Suddenly there is an enemy with a +16 Perception check. Or - perhaps most annoyingly and sneakily - the PCs are asked to roll stealth every few moments of the scouting run, which means a much greater chance of failure.
The constant stealth roles annoys me so much.
Yes. One issue which cause many DMs (and players) to oppose scouting is that it unfairly divides up playtime. The druid wildshapes and then you spend 20 minutes of table time describing each room, asking them where they wish to go, roleplaying them avoiding issues, etc. Meanwhile, the rest of the players have to sit there, unable to equally participate. Same with an invisible rogue, someone controlling a familiar, etc. I've literally seen cases of this where the rest of the players are so bored, they just say "f-it" and go in before the scout comes back.
IMO, a better solution is for the DM to metagame the scouting. Ask for a few roles, provide a sick map, and describe things without details. This is a faster way and avoids the issue. However, players must then be happy that they were helpful and go the information without arguing, rationalizing, or insisting on actions which they probably could do, but the DM is going to rule they didn't. I.e. no going through cupboards, no trying to sneak past guards (at that time), etc.
Roll trap investigation every 5f square. Smallest rooms have 25 squares.
@@BW022 Agreed re: unfairly divides playtime. The solution - as always - is to have a chat with everyone about this sort of situation. Figure out what works for your group.
In one of my groups the rest of us loves it when the sneaky boi is able to scout. Problem is, that scouting is made as difficult and useless as possible by the DM.
@@kopkaljdsao Oh, I know. F-ing ridiculous!
The Telekinetic feat is another good example for Repositioning. It gives you an invisible Mage Hand for free and improves the range of Mage Hand if you already know the spell.
And the bonus action Push/Pull with the ability to willingly fail the save is maybe one of the best bonus actions for classes, like Wizards, that often don't have good bonus action options. It's only 5ft but 5ft is often enough to break grapples, get an ally out of threatened range so they don't need to worry about opportunity attacks, push/pull an enemy off an edge, push/pull an enemy back into a dangerous space or threatened area, deal a little extra damage in a Spike Growth, etc.
I currently have a Divination Wizard whose whole deal is manipulating dice rolls with things like Guidance and Guiding Bolt (Strixhaven Quandrix background), Silvery Barbs, and Portent, as well as battlefield positioning with Telekinetic, Vortex Warp, and Levitate to a lesser extent. It's a lot of fun looking for good moments to use those kinds of features.
Telekinetic is a very good feat.
For my Eldritch Knight. I use the Telekinetic Feat to Push or Pull (Wave Dashing) myself 5ft in any direction. It's better out of combat but fun in combat to escape Opportunity Attacks or to Wave Dash 5ft without wasting my Move.
Definitely not optimal when my Eldritch Adept Feat for Misty Step can just teleport with zero cost of Spell Slots. But useful if I want to Wave Dash 45 degree around my target to cast Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade etc.
Out of combat, I can pseudo Fly with Telekinetic Feat but it's a 5ft Forced Movement. So avoid pushing yourself into a wall or roof etc. You take no damage but thematically, it's not stylish to fumble an Areal Rave Technique.
This is my favourite video of yours - and I feel very vindicated in emphasizing the importance of utility and scouting in a lot of online discussions haha.
Thanks so much!
My party never scouts. I'm starting to wonder if we should scout more. We do value utility a lot though, especially having various members cover different aspects of utility.
@@indigoblacksteel1176 One of my favorite tactics is The Lure; Have you party scout out, say, a bandit camp. The non-stealth character move towards the camp after the stealthing characters have gotten into position. The enemy will initially focus on the approaching group, while the stealthed group ambushes the enemy who hopefully overextends into a bad position (for example). This lets non-dexterous players have a part in staging an attack alongside other who would use a different tactic.
Same here. In 3.5/PF1, if I made a ranger their animal companion was always a bird for scouting purposes. I always wanted to have a horse companion but never did. Scouting from a hawk or owl was just too good.
Avoid reduundancy might be better phrased as cover all bases. Obviously that's likely to avoid a lot of redundancy, but the point is, it doesn't harm a party to have two people good at one skill or one save, but if it's at the cost of covering more skills or saves or whatever, that's a problem. I also think it's good to have someone spare who can do healing, in case the other healer goes down, and again, cover all bases makes that clearer than avoid redundancy.
Or at least "avoid excessive redundancy".
@@jamestaylor3805 Or even something like "minimize diminishing returns"
@@alexc007 that's not actually the goal no? Like if you replace a character with one that does everything better and some more, except in their superiority they happen to step on somebody else's toes, that's still good. That's increased redundancy, more diminishing return, but objectively stronger still.
@@randomnobody660 I think an important factor to consider is opportunity cost. Two people having healing word is probably pretty decent, but maybe picking that healing word on the 2nd guy comes at the cost of not having (idk, example sake) good scouting within the party.
@@alexc007 Yeah basically the goal isn't to minimize overlap but to maximize coverage (and power).
The thing is one only necessarily leads to the other when the game is balanced, as if there's a constant power budget for each class which you don't want to waste. This isn't the case.
Suppose we want to cover scouting. Rogues can scout, so can wizards. Let's just suppose wizard does everything you want better. Higher damage, further/less committal scouting etc. Only "issue" is wizards also cover control and utility, which you already have a bard for.
The fact that there IS overlap when you pick wizard as opposed to rogue isn't a good reason to not do it is my point.
This is an absolutely delightful video. I'm not sure if you've noticed this Chris, but I think the D&D community has kind of overcorrected on their attitudes towards damage. 10 years ago, and your layman thought fireball was the only spell that mattered, and big numbers was everything. But now as the community became more informed (through content exactly like yours), people think about control, with damage as an afterthought. I always detected that bug. Yes, control is AMAZING, but your end goal is to make the enemy "dead", and btw you can only concentrate on one damn spell at a time, so why NOT pack a blast or two in tandem?
And further, damage is the only thing for where redundancy is GOOD. This video was brilliant, and valuable. Thank you for making it!
This is a great video. My group always has a majority of heavy hitters. In our latest campaign, I play a Druid with Spike Growth. Throughout tier 2 play, our combats have transformed into me winning initiative (I was a Harengon with Alert) and dropping Spike Growth on as many enemies as I can then my allies will forcibly move them into it, be that by grappling and dragging them or through things like Thunder Wave or even Vortex Warping them straight into the middle of it. It's been great to see them work together for a change.
This works well with moonbeam and spirit guardians aswell thanks to their wording that allows double dipping of damage with forced movement
Great vid. I think it's worth mentioning that Bless helps the character concentrating on it maintain that concentration, if you lack for heavy hitters, bless yourself as one target!
Some of the best scouting comes from voice of the chain master as the risk is minimal, an invisible imp has very decent ability to bypass many obstacles, and it comes online 4 levels before arcane eye and without a duration limit. I once had my familiar track an adversary for half a day to see that enemy meet up with their boss and gain us valuable intel on the nature of the enemies we were facing.
Would love a video on what the most powerful party composition would look like. Maybe a 3 player, 4 player and so on up to 7 players. A type of party that can cover that very wide range of scenarios.
I asked this a long time ago when this channel was just starting! Since then I've played in only Wizard Parties (From your answer Chris)and it changed my entire perception on Martial Vs Spellcaster view!!
I've felt this way a long time. Control and buffing are both only good if you have allies to buff and take care of the controlled enemies.
I'd say this is one of the best Treantmonk videos, great job 👍
This was an excellent video. I’d really like to see a follow up to this with different build compositions that worked and also build compositions, like the all bard party, that failed. I like the examples you gave and want to hear more.
A video with a few examples of different party makeups that cover this would be fun. Also add one with suboptimal subclasses but that cover the roles to see how it does
18:16 vortex warp! Finished up a campaign last year that went to 14th level where I played a bladesinger. At those high levels you wanna know what my best play was 90% of the time? Vortex warp. I became the magic taxi for the group and I felt great. Just getting allies out of danger or getting them into it.
It's also a good choice for spell mastery if you get to that high level
Seconding the love for that spell. Had a high level battle smith with winged boots on my steel defender and vortex warp in my spell storing item. Would simply fly above and ahead of the group and deploy the GWM fighter or barbarian, or the upcasting SG cleric directly to whatever enemies looked the loneliest on a given turn. Such a simple, fun, highly effective spell!
The most powerful party is a bladesinger, hexblade, blade bard, and paladin, but you want to avoid redundancy so make sure everyone uses a different kind of sword
actually the paladin should use a quarterstaff
I used scatter recently in a fight against a dragon that was way too strong for us to take on traditionally. Except our airship had an experimental arcane superweapon. So after some fighting and whittling the dragon's HP down, I scattered the party to a safe position and the weapon was unleashed. Awesome moment and something the others weren't necessarily expecting.
24:00. I am surprised no one had the wish spell, like that's a perfect use for the spell.
people are running a lot of shapechange builds
This vid is the best patreon ad I’ve ever seen!
Good afternoon Chris! Just sat down to lunch at work. I've had a busy couple days off, but I think I made some good progress on my mission to watch EVERY video on the build playlists!
I've made it from the Light Cleric to being mid-Arcane Trickster video!
Thanks again for keeping me company at work, much love to you! 💜 You're an amazing person and have built an amazing community!
The exact kind of content that I love when you do.
Great tips.
This is my favorite Treantmonk video.
I want to talk on the last subject you bring up at around 26:30 as I have DM'd a campaign where this was a real and present threat that had the potential to TPK the party should they not be able to run away, or otherwise get out of the situation.
Context: Game started at Level 5, started out with 4 players ended up with 5 later on. There was a specific enemy commander who had creatures with what was essentially the Anti-Magic Field from a beholder eye just baked into their sheet as their primary ability who were also relatively sneaky, however they were easy to defeat and their attacks were weak. I set the precedent when they saw the commander swing on another powerful character and just knock him over. When the party moved to engage the enemy many found that their attacks weren't connecting, our artificiers arm was non functional and it was entirely because of these creatures.
Throughout the campaign it was a constant threat of seeing the artificiers arm cease function or some of the other items lose responsiveness. This was great early because only the artificier had a large reliance on magic, the others a Fighter, Rogue, and Monk were entirely okay without most of their magic gear or equipments function. As the game progressed and characters got changed and added this threat got WORSE due to higher level gameplay and more reliance on magic in general.
To this day that campaign has had a dramatic impact on how our table operates when it comes, not just to magic, but logistics and gear. Many of us are extremely careful of relying too much on specifically magic items to solve deficits in character builds. Case in point, i have a socially geared sorcerer with a dagger of blindsight because he is human. He still carries a lantern and torches in his pack even though he has every other option available. You never know, and it is lethal.
Great video, I love to hearing more about the practical application of optimization.
Id also love to hear about the other side of this equation. What makes a good encounter? How do you challenge an effective party? How do you exploit their weaknesses. How to keep it from being BS haha.
I played a Strixhaven game a while back, and definitely learned the power of Vortex Warp. It is probably my favorite spell in all D&D (though mind sliver is also up there)
My favorite class is cleric, and they typically believe something like Chris's rule about conditions ... the best healing you can do is to kill the bad guy, and prevent him from hurting your friends. With some healing available of course, in case someone goes down and needs to be revived.
I feel that this is a very useful video, since it doesn't rely on telling players they must play a specific role. Many class/species combos can be used to achieve these goals of party building. Also I like that you're bringing your experience of running games for multiple parties, saying what to avoid and what to look for. This raises the importance of players communicating with each other during session zero about what they want to play in a campaign, rather than everyone creating their PCs on their own.
My main question has to do with players who join a campaign already in progress, or to players who are in organized play. I played in organized play games a lot many years ago, mostly Living Greyhawk and similar groups. I remember one time when my Elf Rogue was in a party with five clerics. This was in 3.X, when everyone wanted CoDzilla. Well, the redundancy of five clerics and the absence of battlefield control, combined with my weak Rogue going first. I didn't realize that I was fighting a major villainous NPC, and the party was nearly wiped out. We barely avoided a TPK, but 5/6 of the party were killed. What should a player in that situation do?
It's very tough when the rest of the party is filled with redundancies, the best you can do is not repeat the same error and cross your fingers its enough.
Just some quick examples off the top of my head.
Could go evil cleric spy with item that gives opposite alignment who can stay on hisbosth or change because of their influence and.experiences shared.
Wizard who dont like clerics and is constantly goading them saying his magic stronger. Back it up by protecting them at times.
Go Paladin that 5 clerics are all wanting as their personal tank, the clerics would want to out do each other by healing or buffing you (thats what I would do ad a cleric in the same situtstion lol)
This may be your finest work. Very insightful. Well done.
Great video - it's nice to see talk about a party as a whole rather than individual character builds, as that's an important aspect that often gets brushed over in discussions.
I think the one part I'd mention is that I think the 'avoid redundancy' part really feels like 2 different ones in how you're using it. Multiple characters having redundancy isn't a bad thing, depending on what it is (eg, an important one in my view is in-combat healing - it can make a big difference to have redundancy on that vs a single point of failure), but other times it can be a big decrease in effective power (as you mention with the control spell). On the whole some amount of redundancy I'd argue is a good thing - having a character who's best at something and then a second character that can do that thing effectively enough if needed can give a lot of flexibility / power to a party.
But you're also using it as avoiding people having the same weakness / point of failure (such as with the total reliance on magic you mention at the end). I don't know if that's really redundancy to me - that's moreso sharing the same weakness and not covering all the things a party might encounter or need, which is a vital point in its own right.
I've noticed that in Westmarches style games whete you often have mixed party composition having characters which can fill multiple roles are a lot more important. Yes that means those characters are likely to have redundancy but they are also likely to cover than one essential gap.
Especially if you enhance certain characteristics because of spell choice or which magic items to attune to, it helps a lot.
As an example, my swords bard has had to serve as main scout in one group, main tank in another, main support in a third, main battlefield controller in a fourth, and even main damage dealer in a fifth. (Probably missing other roles in this sum-up, and yes, when he was the main damage dealer we had to be creative and I had to pull all the tricks from my sleeve).
By and large most players focus on one or two roles. Having a jack of all trades who can fill the gaps can easily mean the difference between success or failure.
Note this is also where scrolls and potions come in. Though their duration is seldom longer than one or two encounter their gap filling potential is a life saver!
The wizard in our party LOVES to use vortex warp on my Hexblade to drop him into a target- rich environment. 😈
Great video. It’s specific and yet on an ever-green topic. Well done.
This is the top tier content I love to watch. Great job Chris!
So glad to see you making a video on the PP.
Speaking to healing, in my longest running game, just about every character has a bit of healing that we keep in our back pocket. I'm currently playing a V.Human, level 18 Open Hand monk. Took the Healer feat as my first feat, best decision in my party. The speed of the monk allows me to zip around the battlefield and the number of times where I've been able to come in clutch with a well timed revive has been well worth it. Plus our Wizard took the spell Life Transference. That spell has saved our butts a couple of times.
I remember when the dungeon dudes did a video on this and I came up with the following and I think I kinda covered your 10 points more unintentionally. Limit was 4 man party.
So assuming Tasha’s optional rules, no Wildemount, Point Buy, about equal time at each level, no multi-classing, monsters of the multiverse races and silvery barbs is legal.
Twilight Domain Cleric, Str 8, Dex 14 (medium armor is fine and we want to win initiative), Con 15, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8. Custom Lineage +2 Wisdom, Fey Touched Wisdom + Silvery Barbs, Race Skill; Acrobatics. Cleric Skills; Insight, Medicine. Background: Stealth, Perception. ASI 4: Resilient Constitution. ASI 8: Warcaster, ASI 12: Wisdom +2. ASI 16: +2 Constitution. ASI 19: Lucky.
Gloomstalker Conclave Ranger, Str 8, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 8. Bugbear, +2 Dexterity, +1 Constitution, Race Skill; Stealth. Ranger Skills: Animal Handling, Survival, Perception. Background: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Thieves tools. ASI 4: Sharpshooter, ASI 8: Piercer, ASI 12: Dexterity +2, ASI 16: Fey Touched Wisdom + Silvery Barbs. ASI 19: Lucky.
Oath of the Watchers Paladin (Because Initiative buff and counterspell), Str 15, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15. Protector Aasimar (Because free flight) +1 Strength, +2 Charisma. Paladin Skills: Athletics, Persuasion. Background Skills: Deception, Stealth. ASI 4: Fey Touched Charisma + Silvery Barbs, ASI 8: Charisma +2, ASI 12: Sentinel, ASI 16: Tough, ASI 19: Lucky (Get Items that boost Con and Str).
School of Divination Wizard. Str 8, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8. Custom Lineage + 2 Intelligence, Telekinetic +1 Int. Darkvision. Wizard Skills: Arcana, Investigation. Background: Stealth, Acrobatics. ASI 4: Resilient Constitution, ASI 8: Warcaster, ASI 12: Intelligence +2, ASI 16: +2 Constitution. ASI 19: Lucky.
I think that covers all of those 10 rules very well. Would love any feedback.
Love your content. Especially this kind of big picture stuff. ❤❤
Another excellent video! Thanks Chris!
Great video. One of your best ever. Great topic. Lots of solid info and advice concisely put.
Would love to see an example or your pick for the most powerful party using these steps.
Like the most powerful party, 1 - 20, knowing nothing about the campaign apart from it being challenging.
Great video again! 👍
My College of Glamour Bard was the MVP of out Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign, because he could allow other party members to use their reaction to reposition.
Really good and interesting video, love this insight into how you think about DnD stuff.
Thanks Treantmonk! ❤
Incredible video! I love channels focused on optimization and builds such as yours or Colby's, but what I can't find (I understand it would be a lot of work) is someone focused on optimizing parties and not characters. There would be a lot of different decisions to make, a lot of unexplored interesting weird synergies and a lot of combos like your 20 STR rogue that you simply wouldn't build by optimizing any character on a vacuum. A channel focused on exploring parties of 4 characters optimized around different concepts, tactics or thematic ideas... that would be my dream
fantastic and informative video!
i am a self-styled wizard main, but as someone who is very conscious about party composition and someone who takes great pleasure in enabling her teammates, i find myself often playing rogues, paladins, and druids. rogues provide supplemental damage while being skilled scouts, and the arcane trickster in particular adds a lot of utility as well. druids are also competent scouts, while packing battlefield control that could make even wizards envious, plus a little healing and condition removal on the side. paladins have surprisingly solid healing, one of the best defensive features in the game (aura of protection my beloved), and really strong single target burst damage ready to go at all times. i find that between these three classes, there's rarely a hole in a party i can't fill
Wow. Running various groups of multiple classes/subclasses through a set series of one shots that covers all those levels. That data from all those one shots, seems a very useful resource. With the more you do it, adding more data.
While it can't be used to prove anything it's a lot of data that can be quantified. I wonder what other insights can be gained.
S-Tier content here. This dovetails so nicely with other topics like Session 0 and such that I might consider this mandatory viewing for any new group that’s about to start up.
Nice, thanks for making this. :)
I'm excited to see how much more detail there is in this version, above and beyond the original one I commented on of "don't make an all caster or all martial party".
EDIT: I do have a question about if holy weapon on the heavy hitter is the best way to focus down a big bad, though. At least in my spreadsheets, Summon Celestial in Archer form tends to deal more single target damage damage than casting holy weapon on a damage dealer, unless the holy weapon target has an action surge available. I mean, there are exceptions, but Summon Celestial tends to deal about 17.5 DPR out of a 5th level slot, and the conditions required to get 17.5 DPR out of holy weapon seem like they would be uncommon (outside of an action surge turn). Part of the issue here is that sharpshooter/great weapon master, which presumably the heavy hitter is using, these lower accuracy, which lowers how much value comes out of Holy Weapon.
Summon celestial does solid DPR, so it depends (on things like, as you mention, availability of action surge)
I have story to share about winning initiative and scouting (sort of):
As We knew that We'll be facing Red Dragon sooner or later, We have prepared all the good stuff as potions of fire resistance etc, as well as Potion of growth for Our two meele char, then the moment comes and We won the initiative.
Polymorphed and Enlarged Great Ape, and Enlarged Giant Warrior teleported on Adult Red Dragon surprised both the Dragon in-game and DM. Poor grappled, proned and shocked creature couldn't do almost anything against Our 7th lvl party of 4 :)
That's the power of preparation, knowing Your enemy, little luck in dice and primary in this case- going before the Enemy 😅
Well done. This is what you excel at.
Great video as always
Thank you for the video!
A fairly easy way to cover point 10 is Mark of Healing Halfling if Eberron races are allowed, and you play a Spellcaster.
yOOO 👀👀 super sick vid to drop, gotta watch this with a cuppa tea ;3
This is a Great Video!
great video!
Vortex warp is such a good spell, my sorcerer twinned it to save 2 allys. Also it is the easiest way around a wall of force/force cage for an ally to get them out.
Nice to hear a shout out for scatter. I’ve used it as both a DM and a player and it always dramatically alters the battle
This video was sooooo useful!!!!
1. Great list/video!
2. Interesting not in the list is something specifically about social/persuasion. I know it's generically mentioned to cover all skills in the first point, but similar to your Passwall comment, having a way to bypass encounters with a good use of social engineering skills/spells have been a huge factor in my games, both D&D and other games like Shadowrun. I'd put it at around #4 Utility from my personal XP in how I like a balanced party.
3. Love that you referenced the Dungeon Dudes single party builds, and the gaps when mapping it to this list. It did make me try and square the circle on if you did make parties of single class, which would hit all these points the best. IMO I put Ranger at the top, especially with your final points of if you hit antimagic and such, full casters start to fall off the cliff, but Rangers all still have the base "fill them full of arrows" action (Druid would be my alternate top if magic is more reliable.)
4. Double agree on Vortex Warp. I used it in most combats to crazy good effect, and out of combat multiple times to get around gaps/puzzles for the party. (And can get pretty broken at 11th level when you can give your Homunculus a spell storing item with it, so then you effectively have a bonus action Vortex warp Int x2 times/day without killing your spell slots, only drawback is it happens after your turn.
Keep up the good work.
the all druid party I think was really good in a lot of areas
All Druids work well in certain levels, due to Moon Druid being able to cover a lot of weaknesses. But in late tier 2 play and onwards, it's rough. So I agree that Ranger is a good shout for probably best single class party.
Maybe Artificer can do some work, as they kinda cover point 9, which is probably the hardest to secure without Paladins. They are also very customizable with a large number of utility options. With two Battle Smiths with Gunner and pistol+shield, you have a good single target damage base. With an Artillerist, you can increase the defences and reduce the need for healing with the protector cannon. And the last spot can be an alchemist to moonlight as a cleric with free castings of Lesser Restoration and early access to Heal and Greater restoration.
This party probably has to do a lot of finagling to avoid redundancy. Because as awesome Pipes of Haunting are, you probably don't need more than two or three. The main problem is likely not what spells they have access to, but at what level they come in. In short, the all artificer party is covering all bases, but a lot of them are covered kinda poorly.
@@Taeeromwe played at 14. Summoning + grappling moon druid Air Elemental + spike growth + all the other stuff
@@mathguydave3699 The problem we're trying to solve is in cases where magic is not possible. Grappling through Spike Growth is not a possible tactic in an anti-magic field.
genuinely happy to hear of a dnd dm that doednt fudge die rolls. I get the whole "we're just retroactively balancing HP" but it annoys me how this often just devolves into never maange your resources + convince dm you really worked hard and so shouldnt lose
I think it's a spectrum. Like obviously if you fudge a roll anytime something bad happens then there's never any stakes and everything is meh. But if it's like session 3 and your cr appropriate character rolls a crit for max damage instantly killing one of your characters before they could do anything, that kinda sucks no? I feel like there is an inbetween for removing all stakes, and having a player sit around for 4 hours because they got killed on the first roll of the game.
@@lordderppington4694even then fudging a die roll in that scenario doesn’t actually seem satisfying. Why? An appropriate CR character should be able to kill a PC (That is if you allow stakes at the table.) full stop. And why does it suck? Is a player who lets themselves be put into that situation be let off the hook for their choices? Is it really all that crazy to be hit by a crit when there is so many chances to be hit by a crit and die? Even if it’s 3 sessions worth of combat, that could be a ton of rounds where a creature didn’t crit. The real take away from that situation isn’t, “It sucks”, but, “It was only a matter of time”.
Hello Trantmonk, thanks for the cool video's! In point 2 you mention the importance of scouting. I played like +-30 sessions of dnd in the last couple of years. Scouting always seems like a minor thing that is underutilized in the campaigns i'm playing in. Because of your video I searched youtube for how to be an effective scouter or what is the best way to scout in order to get some additional info on the topic from both a player and the DM's perspective. I couldn't find all that much, so I am hoping that some of that might be hidden in one of your video's or if you don't have a specific video on the topic, maybe you could shine some light on this aspect of the game. Love your video's and I wish you well!
The most important thing to remember for scouting is that you don’t want a character to be the scout unless it’s absolutely necessary. If a familiar gets spotted and killed the party is out a bit of gold, if the Druid or Rogue gets spotted then any information they found dies with them and the rest of the party will have to pick up their slack.
While my table has mostly swapped to PF2, I still love your content and this video in particular is just great advice that is mostly system agnostic. I miss Vortex Warp something fierce though; fave spell in all 5e.
First, thank you of course for sharing your expertise and unique perspective. I have always loved the idea of optimizing parties, not just individual characters.
Second, on that note, might you share some of the best party or character synergies you’ve seen in the many one shots you’ve run? Beyond covering the 10 points you laid out, what have been some of the best combinations and teamwork examples you’ve seen between characters? What classes and abilities pair exceptionally 25:54 well together?
Thanks again 🙏🏻
Great video, but I disagree with one thing- the redundancy of single target damage. It can absolutely be redundant or excessive in a party. In the Treantmonk one shots, each party goes through basically the same adventure, and then single target damage is huge. In a regular campaign, it is much less relevant. Why? The DM turned the encounters to the players. Yes, a group with no damage dealers has a problem regardless. But stacking several big damage dealers on a party just… makes the DM give the monsters more hit points, or use higher hit point monsters, or use more monsters. If, as the DM, I don’t want them to be able to kill the big bad in one round, they can’t- because it will have more hit points than they can do in one round- no matter now many hit points of damage they can do. Why? Because as the DM I already know what they can do, and we ALL want a good fight, not one where the big boss dies in one round. So, yes, make sure your group can do decent damage. Maybe even good damage. But it DEFINITELY has diminishing returns.
Agreed!
When he said "I've run many fights when the boss dies before getting a turn", my first thought was "that would be soooo lame!"
By this logic nothing matters. If they were all save or suck casters, you'd just keep adding more LR.
If your point is that optimization of any kind is useless when the DM will automatically scale everything perfectly so your choices mean nothing, then you're completely correct... but then it's just a matter of finding people who actually want to play that kind of game, and then why use D&D vs better roleplay systems if combat is irrelevant
@@User-he6zdAgreed that this is generally the flaw in the logic used above. Worth noting though that single target damage is much easier to account for mathematically than nearly anything else, so likely a DM tracking a party’s strength will be most capable of doing so for this kind of character.
You might surprise your DM by pulling out a particular spell at an opportune time. You probably won’t surprise them with your damage capability (assuming they made any effort to understand your character).
Wonderful video! Probably the best dnd video on any channel! One small comment, social interactions are critical! My table has a huge variety of challenges. Social skills, scouting, resource management, and critical thinking are all essential! The most common TPK comes from poor player communication!
A suggestion for a future video - What would be your personal choice of 5 characters to make your best party :)
OK, I'll give some thought to that.
@@TreantmonksTemple To make it more interesting, may I suggest no multiclassing, and if you there would be any differences between a party of 5th level chars, and a party at 15th level :)
Always enjoy your content.
The only thing I feel is missing is the social pillar. Not needed perhaps in a one shot but definitely crucial in a campaign. Good social abilities can prevent a combat from happening just as effectively as good scouting in a setting that isn’t just some version of dungeon crawling.
Looking at your list after having just played a one shot, feels really validating to see some things on the list that I witnessed during the game. For context:
- I was playing a Four Elements Monk with a dip in Paladin (for a meme- No spell slots, lots of spells), with a Rod of Resurrection
- J was playing a 20 level Fear Conquest Paladin, with Snicker-Snack
- and B was playing a Grappler character with Monk/Fighter/Barbarian Rogue levels, and a stockpile of Potions of Growth
#1 - Having two characters that could Stunning Strike ended up causing the feels bad, because we could both do it, but only needed it done once
#2 - Flying up to get altitude and see the undead Hurricane made a huge difference.
#3 - Snicker Snack was indispensable for out damaging the heal rate of the big bad
#4 - My monk casting Tiny Hut to wait out the magic chaos hurricane was Top Shelf Utility tech that even the DM called out after the session
#5/#6/#7 - Going before the enemy moved made the AoE damage effects better. Never found a good time to use Wall of Stone, but grappling was a big help.
#8 - I think we had a single moment where pulling someone out of a grapple/restrain effect was helpful… but not as much as we thought. Having mounts was helpful though
#9 - I think Saving Throws should be much higher on your list, because they always come up! Luckily, Paladin + Monk + Bless + advantages help a bunch!
#10 - We didn’t end up needing all the Healing my Monk was capable of. Although, if I had more than one casting of Greater Restoration, I would have used it more to cure the early levels of Exhaustion some of the party got. But instead I was saving it for healing a higher level of exhaustion, sine the first two didn’t matter to the SnickerSnack Paladin.
With the exception of Saving Throws (stated above), I fully agree with the list and its order!
Thanks for another great video… I am playing in a one PC long term campaign, so redundancy is the only thing I don’t have to worry about :). Interesting that intuitively i have been covering most of the points on the list and my 6th lvl Shepherd druid with a one lvl in Twilight cleric is doing ok. admittedly that is mostly due to the fact that i take time to prepare and strategize - crafting explosives, potions and other resources (my GM is all for creativity and the campaign setup allows that) as well as scouting ahead. Spell-crafting is another way my GM introduced to balance it out a bit. I can get NPCs to help me out ( not too many though usually 1 or 2 at most) if i manage to convince them to join through RP.
I'm thinking of a Construction Crew team: Creation Bard, Life cleric, Order Wizard, Shepard Druid. These characters use their spells to create an impregnable base. Hallow, druid grove, world shaping...
I remember reading a thread on Enworld back in the early days of 5e that concluded the most powerful party was an Paladin (probably Ancients), Abjuration Wizard, Light Cleric, and Lore Bard.
Another thread I also remember reading years ago was apparently a translation of a Chinese 5e class ranking someone posted on the Gitp forum which concluded, in a similar way to what you mention in the video, that Paladins are the best class in the game because of Aura of Protection.
Would love to see you give sample 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level parties that cover the bases with different class and subclass compositions illustrating these principles. Especially, where one or more players deviate from optimization in order to cover the bases like your giff rogue example in this video.
I'm starting to watch. So far, my bet, (considering a 4-player party) would be:
Chronurgy Wizard, Life Cleric, Battlemaster Fighter, Lore Bard / with maybe a dip in smth like Swashbuckler Rogue
Let's see how wrong i'll be :D
my guess was pretty good damn
To this day my favourite magic item in the game was the first item I got in my first game. I rolled a sword and board Oath of Devotion paladin.....my Dex was 10. Initiative was problematic for me. I envisioned myself walling off enemies, being a meat shield. Pretty hard to do when 4/5 party members go before me including enemies. Enter the Sentinel shield.
Fantastic video. That is all.
Vortex warp truly is an amazing spell.
One of my all time favorites
I'd say armour class goes as part of healing, not taking damage is the same as taking and instantly healing it.
About 6: Battlefield control. I had the opportunity to create a high level rogue with magic items.
I took the eversmoking bottle. It's like an unlimited use smoke bomb so long as I don't forget to collect it in case of a throw. + It's not a spell so they can't dispel, nor is it darkness !
I love filling the gap, i always do my character last in my party for that, my greatest work was an order cleric 1 / divine soul X with healer and inspiring leather, upcast extended aid, twin vortex warp barbarian and rogue, firewall when needed, heal someone inside an antimagic cone of a beholder, lesser restoration when the barbarian got paralized and still made him attack.
Redundacy can be valuable depending on how the dm treats resource replenishment -- healing potions, long rests, etc. There are some obvious redundancies that are desirable (#10 condition removal/healing). Your example of stacking some redundant battlefield control makes, sense, but having a 2nd battlefield controller could be helpful when your first one drops concentration.
Great video, amazing. About that last point about the party of Gishes+Casters, I'd think this might be a bigger problem in a campaign, as your characters might become well known for their magical tactics. (Of course this might be true for every campaign, but it is a bigger problem for this group because every character shares the same kryptonite)
Yessss, I can rub this under my friends nose when I play another paladin! :D
Jokes aside I'm always a little bummed out when my favourite class isn't represented and that just so happens to be the one you said was necessary. But maybe this can get one or two of them to just consider playing a paladin? Would be nice.
Thanks!
Thank you!
I think this was a great video, but I also feel it has a glaring item that could reach as high as #2 that isn’t even mentioned. Perception.
It surprises me because I know from other videos from Chris that he holds it in high regard. I think it is widely considered the best skill proficiency, with good reason.
A great Perception can avoid ambushes in situations scouting cannot, like walking through a town. It can potentially avoid traps, reveal secrets, find unseen enemies, and find hidden treasures.
I cannot imagine a 1st level optimized party without a single character rocking at least a 15 PP, and higher is better.
Things like the Alert feat or a Weapon of Warning can fill the gap in a pinch, but having a great spotter is, in my opinion, a real boon.
Ah, some adventures are overcome by stealth, some by negotiation, and some by avoidance, but in the end Overwhelming Force wins when the BBEG don’t run away. Tactics aid one for success, intel helps know when, where and how, but quick violent action & right force for the enemy encounter is best.
The Dead condition is my favorite, but happened to one of our party last night. (He got better)
I'm a coach for a team sport with highly specialized positions, and uses a lot of strategy. Most of the theory work in this video resonates. Toward the end, you mention that it might be because of your playstyle that this list is how it is. Yes, that is a big factor. But, like in sports, a sound and cohesive strategy that covers every possible scenario is more valuable than a highly specific strategy that leaves you exposed. And in the same vain, party's that fill all the rolls/needs competently are better equipped to handle all situations than a bunch of redundant optimizers that do not compliment each other.
I would like to suggest Monster Slayer ranger for a scout, as at level 3 they get the ability to find out a creatures damage resistances, imunities, and vulnerabilities. Additionally They work well for battlefield control with magic user's nemises at level 11, letting them just stop a spell or teleport on a failed wis save 1/short rest. Monster wisdom saves are generally pretty good, so this feature is iffy if you don't focus wisdom, and I would definitely say counterspell is better, but more importantly this can shutdown nonspell teleports.
The dungeon dudes don't directly address the saving throws, but they do address ability scores, where they try to have different characters have good secondary stats, especially with SAD classes where point buy is a bit more free.
What do you think of this build?
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I would go Variant Human Rogue Thief.
I would take the Sage Background, Wizards Apprentice Specialty.
I would start with S 13 C 12 D16 I15 W10 C8 for stats.
I would start with Athletics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Arcana and History as skills.
I would take expertise with Stealth and Perception.
I would start with the Ritual Caster feat. I would start with Find Familiar and Detect Magic.
At level 4, I would take Tavern Brawler, making my character proficient with Alchemist Fire, Acid Flasks, Caltrops, Hunters Traps, Holy Water and Oil Flasks, allowing him to throw two Acid Flasks per round and trigger sneak attack with either of them because of Fast Hands. I would also raise Strength to 14 to increase Athletics which synergizes with Second Story work.
At level 5, I would reach the milestone of being able to cast Phantom Steed as a ritual, allowing my character to have a movement speed of 100' at all times.
At level 6, I would take Expertise with Athletics and Sleight of Hand.
At level 8, I would take Mounted Combatant, allowing my character to keep his phantom steed safe, and attack with advantage while mounted.
At level 10, I would take Healer, synergizing with Fast Hands and allowing my character to basically cast Healing Word twice per round with no limits until the healing kit's run out.
At level 12 and 16 I would boost dexterity.
At level 19 I would take Observant, giving +5 to passive perception and passive investigation and boosting Intelligence to 16. But, really, it doesn't matter what you take. Lucky is never a bad choice.
I would be leaning into the ability to use magical rod's, staffs and wands through use magic device and providing utility with ritual spells and mundane objects through fast hands, tavern brawler and healer. I'd be using Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servent, Magic Mouth, Leomunds Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Divination, Contact Other Plane and Rary's Telepathic Bond rituals as soon as I could get my hands on them and as often as possible, and I would have an owl familiar and phantom steed at all times.
This build is an old school Advanced Dungeons and Dragons style Thief build, based on the Grey Mouser from the books by Fritz Leiber
He's best in a party that doesn't have a wizard, because there's no ritual caster overlap. And, he's able to be an amazing healer once he hits level 13. With fast hands, healer, a bag of holding full of healing kits and a staff of healing, he can handle almost everything. He could go in solo, or as a duo, and really do well.
I like building a rogue that dumps Charisma and puts Strength in the top three. He's not a smooth talker, but he knows parkour, and he can use Tavern Brawler to pull Jackie Chan type shit if he gets caught with his hand in someone's pocket.
It starts out strong, too. A rogue with an owl familiar is a top tier rogue out of the gate. A fourth level rogue with an owl familiar who can sneak attack with an acid flask at range as a bonus action is a very strong forth level rogue. There are no weak levels, and no abilities that cease to be useful. Sneak attacking with an acid flask from a distance of 20' as a bonus action is still powerful at level 16. It's a single class build. You're dealing 2d6+8d6+5+5 as a bonus action with a mundane object that costs 25gp. And, using a healing kit to restore a downed comrade to one hit point twice per round is still powerful at level 20.
If the dungeon master is willing to give access to things like bombs and dynamite, his damage potential rises dramatically, but he doesn't need it.
The fact that he can use his bonus action to attempt a sneak attack with fast hands really sets him free to be flexible in battle. If he lands his sneak attack with his bonus action, he can use his action to do whatever is optimal. If he has a good wand or staff, that might be a better choice. If he misses his sneak attack, he can try again.
If you were going to take anything away from this... if you ignore flavor and give a thief rogue the tavern brawler and healer feats, you instantly become op. You gain the ability to sneak attack with a bonus action, and you get the ability to prevent a total party kill by repeatedly raising two downed comrades to one hit point with a healers kit.
I love this character.
His owl flies past the giant's face and distracts it as he rides in on his phantom steed and throws an acid flask at the giant's vitals, landing a sneak attack and causing significant damage as he rides past. Then he rides away to a safe distance and blasts the giant with a wand of fireballs.
After the giant is dead, he abandons his phantom steed, letting it fade away, and climbs the sheer mountain face to get to the castle where the final treasure awaits. Once this job is finished, the old wizard will repay him with the a staff of healing and a scroll of contact other plane, both of which he has been seeking for a long time.
Once he finishes this personal side quest and reunites with his party, that staff of healing is really going to come in handy. He'll never use cure wounds, but lesser restoration and mass cure wounds will definitely see use. And he has personal reasons why he wants the scroll of contact other plane.
This guy can do stealth and infiltration and information gathering and theft and burglary and escape with the best of them. His ritual spells provide massive utility. He is a top tier battlefield medic. He has limited battlefield control through his ability to throw two bags of caltrops per round, and if he can find a reliable source of tanglefoot bags, this improves dramatically. His ability to generate advantage with his familiar and attempt to sneak attack twice per round throwing alchemist fire and acid flasks makes him a top tier short range damage dealer. The fact that he can use both wizard and cleric magic items gives him immense flexibility. His mobility is off the charts. He has a natural climb speed with a strength of fourteen, second story work and expertise in athletics, and he can use a ritual to summon a steed that moves 100' which he spent a feat learning to ride like a mongolian. He has expertise in perception, and he's very knowledgeable, with skills in arcana and history and a high intelligence. Of course, he's also got expertise in sleight of hand, so, he can steal your wallet with the best of them.
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The druid and the barbarian are both down. The balor is not. The sorcerer is dealing with minions and barely keeping it together. No matter. That balor is going to kill us all.
The thief charges in on his phantom steed, with his healing kit in hand. He quickly gives the barbarian triage as a bonus action and gets him back on his feet. Then he does the same to the druid as a standard action. He's been hovering around 20' away throwing bombs and shooting his opponents with wands. But his dungeon master is being a dick and not letting him perform the healing action targeting a prone ally without dismounting, and now he's standing unmounted, inside melee range of a balor, behind two allies who each have one hit point. He can repeat this indefinitely. If he's undisturbed. The fate of the realms rests in the hands of the druid and the barbarian. If they let the balor reach the thief, the game will end in a total party kill.
The thief does not understand why he is here. What the hell happened? It doesn't matter. This is the pragmatic option. Do what is optimal and try not to shit yourself.
I hope the sorcerer isn't overwhelmed by minions before they finish this balor off.
Shout out Arcane Eye, Locate X, and Passwall. I regret it when I dont have these.
Have a group that seemed redundant at the start. 3 Rangers. But one was an Archer Swarmkeeper. Other was a pirate themed Horizon walker who focused on flintlock and sword dual wielding combat. final was a strength based heavy armored Drakewarden with a little tempest cleric thrown in. However, they have notably bene suffering from a lack of Wizard, and its kicking in in the latter part of Tomb of Annihilation. The light cleric is doing what they can to make up for that in terms of AOE damage and control, but their sole counterspeller is a Warlock, and that's got limits. Tradeoff for the survival hexcrawl navigation portion that was no problem at all for them. the complete lack of significant ritual magic, identify has been notable.
Bless is one of the most clutch spells in the game! Good from Lvl 1-20.
On the topic of single class parties, oh yeah, you 100% need to diversify your ability scores not just for saving throws but also to give each party member different things to be good at, and it also gives them more identity.
I absolutely love vortex warp
One of the best battle field repositioning abilities is the glamour bardic inspiration
So, what you're saying is a party consisting of:
Watchers Paladin
Twilight Cleric
Chronugy Wizard
Eloquence Bard
Is possibly the strongest 4-person party in the game?
Combining the best subclasses of these main classes, you get:
One character with at least 20 in strength, wisdom, intelligence, and charisma.
Probably an average of 14 dexterity, and 14 to 16 constitution.
The best battlefield control.
The best buffs/support.
Very good, but not necessarily the best healing.
Some of the best damage output.
Some of the best initiative advantage with Twilight actually providing advantage to anyone and Chronugy adding intelligence to initiative.
And probably quite a few other things I can't think of at midnight.
Thoughts?
single target damage is a bit weak in this group
@@mathguydave3699
What would that benchmark be? What value is "good" single target damage?
Without running the numbers for this group, what would you say it is hitting, to gage?