D&D 5e: Highest Damage Party 10th level - The S.A.U.C.E.
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2024
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The builds in action:
• Treantmonk (and friend...
• Treantmonk vs THE NEW ...
The builds:
www.dndbeyond.com/characters/...
www.dndbeyond.com/characters/...
www.dndbeyond.com/characters/...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
5:02 Fighter Rogue Grappler
15:40 Shameless Spike Growth Caster
24:37 Hasting Ooze Kitty
32:30 How it comes together 
Игры
Next OneDnD update: "Umm, Spike Growth is capped at . . . 8d4 a turn. No particular reason . . ."
To be fair, it probably should have a cap, as it's kind of abusable without it, especially being only 2nd level spell.
@@Klaital1 It's very much abusable and is often abused. Many spells are like that in 5e.
@@stargateproductions healing spirit was capped, so I don't see why they shouldn't cap spike growth
@@T3hIluvatarfew plays the classes that get spike growth to the levels necessary to effective use it in strategy.
8d4 per creature per turn, per spell per turn, per creature per spell, or per spell total?
Because the amount of crippling that would be varies _wildly_ depending on the answer.
"i want to grapple the bad guy" "alright athletics check" "ok i rolled a 2 on the dice....after all my bonuses that's a 42"
LMAO that Josie build
Winged Tiefling, 1 level Peace Cleric Dip for medium armor, 1 level Divine Soul Sorcerer dip for the shield spell and CON saving throws, Silvery Barbs. It's like every stereotype about shamelessly optimised builds.
Dave sacrificed so that Chris and I could keep our integrity.
yes! I DID rule out playing conjure animals though. This was better than playing 3 gloomstalkers which was suggested
@@ram3n_goblinlol!
josie flew so pussycat could grapple and run
All it misses is a hex blade dip, and it would be the biggest stereotypical optimized character
Heard my voice, immediately shut off the video haha. The horror!
The horror being the memory of DM'ing for the S.A.U.C.E? 😱
*MEANWHILE, AT WOTC*
- So... Are we sure we want grapples to be a saving throw?
- ... (Shows video)
- OK, WE ARE HELLBENT ON IT!
It makes so much more sense as a save lol
@@gloryrod86 Honestly I think it should be a save to resist, but wouldn't argue against it being a "use a skill" type action to attempt escape.
I was laughing so hard when you got to the cart and chests. If a DM wasn't prepared, this is so busted! I love it
I would never do this without letting the DM know the strategy first.
@@TreantmonksTemple Will admit I like the flying cart of chests gimmick but oil flasks exist among other sources of fire for mobs.
This is why spell or monsters that do double damage to objects should be utilized by DM's.
carts & chest are wood being ignitable to start a fire.
Fire ball & the object wouldn't get a dexterity save.
Eliminate the flying cart causing falling damage to the ooze cat then proceed to target the flying caster which Josies weakness is poorly balanced ability scores with 71 HP is the weakest link.
What goes up must come down.
ranged or flying monsters are fairly common & why would the mobs not target the spike growth flinging tiefling?
The Pussycat is a grappler but little else.
Grappling is strong but to rely on it I do not recommend.
Most DM's make their combats to predictable & don't use advantages were they can take them.
Even if don't use the methods I described Pussycat is on his own on the ground while the other 2 are in the air.
Swarm pussy cat like ants on a mantis as 91 HP with 20 AC is not as much as you think.
Cockatrices or other monsters with disabling attacks like petrify or similar would be awful to pussycat.
Even the old tried & true swarm of stingers works wonders or goblinoids with poison shanks.
I think your tables play very differently mine as survivability is far more important then damage output.
If you'd prefer, you can replace the Rune Knight levels with Giant Barbarian for the grappling character, while keeping the 3 Soulknife levels. This would trade AC, action surge, an additional ASI, and many strong reaction defensive features for +10 movement speed and advantage on initiative. The damage resistance can be replicated by hill rune, and the large size will be available one more time per long rest with rune knight. Giant barb released after we ran The Gauntlet, but I think is generally the weaker option, despite it achieving more spike growth damage.
I really love how you've put together this exceptional team. Great work. I'd refrain from using it in the maxed out version (or even a close-to-maxed out version) in a campaign though. It's basically so broken, the DM will have to meta-game and throw some silly encounters at the party in order to not just abandon the combat pillar outright. But for a one-shot like this it was amazing!
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. It was super-fun for a one shot, but doing the same-old, same-old through an entire campaign would get really dull I think.
@@TreantmonksTemplethere might also be a problem to get to the point where this party build excels, as haste is so important but you get it at lvl 10.
This is a great build. But probably not feasible for anything else but a oneshot
@@aetherwolf9288in that case you can use a chronurgist with good defenses over a creation bard, it has some upsides and some downsides that are mentioned by mathguydave in another comment further down. Chron gets haste at lv5 or 6 if you Armor dipped
Honestly most cheesy/gkmmicky combos/exploits in 5e's brokem mess of interactions are like this, such as infinite wizard trick.
@@Cassapphic its neither cheesy nor gimmicky
Its playing by the rules and it works
Reminds me of the old 3.5e build that would optimize for movement speed then use a manuever to convert it into throwing enemies to the stratosphere
After rewatching the gauntelt run I was wondering whether your naked plasmoid had some way to access the material component of Haste. Thank you for clearing that up in this video! I know that some DMs just handwave spellcasting components, but I am glad you made sure to have the build work without that assumption.
Honesly i wish magic was more like it was in original dnd. More restrictions and fantasy world "fiddly bits" that more systematically restricted things instead of more lore things like "wish is a rare spell that you cant just pick at level up". The magic casting and learning system could be expanded out to make it more interesting but directly gets in the way of the "super hero blast baddies" vibe 5e goes for.
@@larkohiya Yeah me too, as a DM, magic trivializes encounters to the point that I don't actually put much thought into building them. I know whatever obstacle I put in the parties way, the caster will just cast a spell to get around it. So do more encounters you say. Casters will complain that are "useless" without their spell slots when they have an unlimited resource called cantrips. I tried running a game where we did 6-8 encounters and my casters consistently blew their leveled spells by the second encounter and complained when they didn't get a long rest. My new campaign I plan on doing even less encounter building and I just can't be bothered anymore. 5e is player forward but it doesn't consider the DM's fun. While the DMG provides tools for DMs to use, I find on the whole players have a certain expectation when it comes the game and it often runs afoul of the DMs enjoyment.
Points off for not actually carrying Tom around in a steel basket.
@@stargateproductions A couple people, including your comments above, pointed out the root cause of the issue; Wizards lack utility without their spells. Yes they have cantrips, but the majority of them are proactive as opposed to reactive. This weakness makes itself truly apparent in more "exploration-style" games, where they are more likely to burn through spell slots on utility functions (Fly, Enhance Ability, etc.) and wind up zeroed out after their 1st combat encounter of the day. In 2nd ed., we called it the "guy in a dress" problem; I cast all my spells, and still have to do things? Alright I'll try, but now I'm just a guy in a dress. I believe its this line of inquiry that led to the development of the Artificer class, in terms of mechanics.
@@stargateproductionsIf *your* DM enjoyment.
I DM more than I play, and I have plenty of fun designing encounters with the expectation the PCs will win. I enjoy making my PCs *more* powerful, giving martial characters feats as rewards or powerful magic items, and watching them blitz through my encounter.
When you DM, you want a particular experience, same as when you play. 5e offers a DM experience I enjoy, which is watching my friends faces light up and know I gave the space for that to happen. If you're hoping for a game with more gruelling combat where the players are constantly on their toes, like older editions of dnd, look into Dungeon Crawl Classics or 13th age or the Medevial variant of Call of Cthulhu (I can't remember its name right now).
5e has many, many issues, I'm not going to pretend like there aren't ways it could and should make the DMs life easier, or times the designers have greatly. But what you're complaining about is its fundemental design philosophy rather than the implementation of that philosophy. To which all I can say is don't DM a system you don't like, and find a system built to work the way you want to GM.
If you can Smeeeeeeellllll…..what Treantmonk is cooking!
He is The Rock now?
"Shameless Spike growth caster" 👌👌👌
I guess you could say, that treantmonk cooked the sauce!
Such a nutty bit of fun. I was very entertained how this trio shredded cheese in the gauntlet.
Totally waiting on a Performance of Creation vid
Ive been running a Creation Bard with a dip into artillerist so all my turrets and animated items can be instruments. Nothing like a flying Axe Guitar that can slap someone for 1d10+Pb+the BardicInsp damage.
If you go to level 14 having an artificer could be very good because you can infuse boots to replicate boots of speed
I wonder how the "Dragon Star Druid + Astral Self Monk" combo would do as a grappler in this comp
I'm surprised the Rune Knight didn't use the Fire Rune. I guess its more of a Tavern Brawler effect with grappling, but It's what I use on my Mage Grappler. Sinking in that first hit, doing a lot of damage, and forcing a Str. Save vs. Restrained. With failure is offering a consistent with additional damage for 1 minute. This mixed with a bonus action grapple (and in my case, an Action Surged Silence Spell opener), and its a nice solo shutdown.
I've always preferred Cloud rune to Fire rune, especially on a race that lacks darkvision, like tabaxi.
@@ram3n_goblin 100%. I'm running Cloud & Fire atm, but I luckily have a veteran TTRPG healer in my group so I go wild
The flavor for the big combo could be so fun. If the dm allows it you could flavor it like a bunch of spikes growing out of anything not just the ground. Then this insane pro wrestler speedster grabs you and slams you into every surface until you’re just sorta a couple bloody arm bones
The S.A.U.C.E. is trully a name only a RPG player could think of
Thanks Chris
I like combos like this. Its quite extreme but cannot stop loving them.
That said...
To be honest, I would say this could catch a DM by surprise ONCE. But since magic is a very heavy component of this Anti-magic field wrecks it. Also dispel magic could make all the setup useless either targeting the growth or the cat. Or a counterspell to the casting of the growth.
Though nullifying the cat (or its buffs) seems like the optimal option, since with such a speed you can wreck a combat by simply using a divide and conquest approach
Our DM was not surprised even once as we ran the entire thing by him first to make sure he liked it.
lol I remember seeing the first encounter on your groups gauntlet run. I had to rewatch that first round like, 5 times 🤣
Love the text on the thumb nail
Wow, I built a Rune Knight + Soulknife multiclass almost exactly like this when Tasha’s came out, intended for grappling too, but the casters in my party were completely uninterested in synergies or really any kind of cooperative play. The DM gave them OP custom spells, so I kinda just ended up shutting down one or two key enemies while the casters competed to dominate whatever scene we were in with their crazy powers, from one guy summoning dragons to the bladesinger stacking several custom made self-buffing spells in one turn before wrecking everything in melee.
But if they were a little less selfish, we could have been several times more effective, as demonstrated in this video. It wouldn’t have been as optimized as what you have here, but I’m sure it would vastly outperform how we actually played.
Treantmonk's Temple, You're the best! I just had to subscribe!
Wow, thanks!
I've been waiting for a breakdown on the three characters. Should be good. How do you think a plasmoid plays/stacks up after playing one?
Edit: Will you be adding the dndbeyond links to the character sheets in the description?
The links have been added.
Now picture this with the BG3 scout rogue, yeah tou lose the psy die but the extra BA goes crazy on this build
One thought about the whole Spike Growth method. Your movement is halved when dragging a grappled enemy. Spike growth squares count as difficult terrain. So I know the grappler is moving on normal terrain but if they are dragging the grappled enemy through difficult terrain shouldn't this halve their movement yet again. You are dragging them through spikey clinging plants and thorns which one would expect would be harder than dragging them across a flagstone floor.
Glamours Bard plus a 1 level dip in one or both of Order Cleric/Hexblade is a lot of fun.
I love party optimization
My favorite part of this build is the chest cart.
This awesome party felled gods until they were finally slain immediately after one clever enemy banished the cat.
Spike growth damages your pc as well if you’re running through it. You either need to fly or find some way to become immune to piercing damage. Otherwise you’ll end up cheese grating yourself. Spike growth is a good spell but the grapple strategy will fall apart as soon as you start running through it and taking damage yourself.
I'm deeply offended. RUclips didn't show me this video. I had to find it myself by accident.
Our old pal Tomcat Jones. XD
I would LOVE to see more videos like this.
I love combo Theme-work stuff like this.
I hope this video catches good!
Hello Chris, I hope your day treats you well. This is a homebrew concert, but just hear me out. I used spike growth in a cave. Approximately ten feet wide and ten feet high. I asked my DM if I could basically wrap the spike growth all the way round, both up the walls and across the ceiling, essentially making a spike growth death tube. My DM Allow it to be and they also allowed two, three, and four times damage depending on the angle the enemy was dragged through in this scenario. Just for thought, thank you brother, have a wonderful day.
The rehash of Peace Cleric HAS made me wonder whether the TCE subclasses for Cleric might be more "usable" once they can no longer be used for one-level dips.
Funny 4th member here could be a Monster Hunter Ranger for another source of Spike Growth, Protection From Evil and Good and at later levels a free Anti-teleport, regardless of if it’s a spell.
It’s that or a cheese Divination Wizard ngl.
Would the luck stone be a better choice for this character than a cloak of protection? It also gives +1 to saving throws but simultaneously gives +1 to ability checks so your Athletics and stealth would get a +1.
Probably not - grapples were going to succeed. It would be counter to our strat to boost his initiative
Originally I had luckstone instead of cloak of protection! But after we stacked psy knack, talisman, and emboldening bond, AC was more valuable than ability checks.
Love the series! Curious of HP of chests and cart. Would they be survive AOE’s?
A lot is dependent on DM ruling. If a grappler is dragging or carrying an opponent a logical interpretation is that the opponent will either be pulled on an identical path as the grappler or s/he will share the same space as the grappler. The rules are: "Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."
Unsure whether it will still be functional after the official release of PHB2024, but my "current" 1dnd beastmaster ranger casts himself spike growth and the beast grapples enemies and dashes with the same action since level 7. Not even close in damage potential, but it depends only on me and it will not be banned after one session...lol
Treantmonk's Temple, You're amazing! I hit the like button as soon as I saw it!
The SAUCE does NOT shred enemies. It juices them
this is a sick combo, i love your breakdown and the whole run on cmcc was just awesome to watch
If the worst happens with initiative, Pussycat can grapple both other PCs and move you away, now turn order proceeds as normal.
BBG with upcast counter spell wrecks this :)
Possibly.. but they will be using up that reaction to counter the spells and now you are either stuck in the spike growth or there is a hasted fighter in your face. Neither is a great situation for a caster bbg
@@rorybeckstrom9602 the fighters attacks are chicken scratch compared to the spike growth damage.
@@dwgautier True. But they did have a section on secondary tactics for when spike growth shredding doesnt work.
I agree that counter spell is one situation that was not noted explicitlt by treant monk but they will still be doing decent damage to whatever they are fighting.
Counterspell is a pain for this group, but likely not fatal, depending on the battlefield. Let's say that in the first round, the party doesn't realize the BBEG has counterspell, and so gets only one of the two spells off, while the other gets countered. On the second round, they have to figure out how to get the countered spell up without interference.
If the countered spell was Spike Growth, simply back up further than 60 feet from the BBEG and cast it again. SG has a lot more range than Counterspell. If there is no way to back up that far, try to find a way to block line of site (ducking around a corner, for example). Even if that means non-optimal placement of the spike growth, the grappler should have no trouble dragging BBEG to it.
If the countered spell was haste, then the plasmoid should be able to find a place (e.g. hiding behind a chest or under the cart) to break BBEG's line of sight and get the spell off without being countered. For this to work, the tabaxi will have to position themselves so that the plasmoid can still have line of sight on them.
On the other hand, an enemy with Dispel Magic might be an even worse problem, especially if their initiative is between the plasmoid and the tabaxi.
Not many base creatures have spells, let alone counterspell
Did you know that they're changing grappling in OneDnD to where, to grapple someone, the one being grappled makes a str or dex saving throw and to break free, an athletic or acrobatic check to escape against a DC of the grapplers 8 + pb + str mod.
This will make athletics on anyone trying to grapple someone else completely pointless and a monster with legendary resistance can nope out of the initial saving throw.
yep we playtested this a few times. We will see what gets published in the end. I thought it worked pretty well once monks could use Dex in the last playtest
Yes, I've coverd all the 2024 playtests on this channel
@@TreantmonksTemple I know you have covered onednd. But I don't know if you looked into how the grapple rules changed in the UA.
22:25 Okay, okay, how would I use this in combat. Probably Song of Creation to make something.
30:17 ROFLMAO!
Brilliant!
Maybe not ideal, but it would have been fun to see this done with every group member a split of WL and Bard, with somewhat interchangeable functions, so that even once the DM recognizes the formula, it's nearly impossible to counter because each member can perform more than one role.
I thought about a 4th character and I think I’ve gotten an idea. What if you could just get to artificer 10 and make your own boots of striding? With replicate magic item I think it’s possible and an artficer also learns haste and catnap. Oh and I just realised they gain flash of genius wich is a great addition to not lose the grapple.Correct me if I’m wrong but this should work.
Don’t forget Alchemists Artificers Experimental Elixir of Swiftness..
We talked about artificer when planning, I think Giant's Might was the reason we settled on Rune Knight.
Before watching, my suggestions are 1) Conjure animals 2) Animate objects 3) Paladin-Fighter or paladin-fighter-warlock multiclass 4) Several Sorcerers casting twin polymorph and twin haste on each other 5) all these things in some combinations. Let's see what you came up with :D
Lulz @ Josie & the Pussycats graphic
I wonder if subtle spell is worth it on the spike growth caster just in the fringe case they are hit by a silence spell.
I think bard was better than more sorcerer levels here but perhaps if you went higher level or removed the peace dip
It would be nice to have, but a hard fit on the build
I don’t know if this would work, but could you use a ready action to dash with a reaction on your next turn ? So you still move zero on your recovery turn from feline agility, I know you have the bard for reaction movement but would the rules let you ?
Fret not DM‘s, unless your players can figure out how to grapple fire, elementals will always have your back!
New progress report! I am just starting the second Battlesmith build "The Cyborg" which means i just finished "Gnome Ercy"! Had to come over for the new vid though!
Many cheers, keep being awesome Chris! 💜
Will you do a video like this one 27:05? I am going to play a creation bard next and this would be wonderful.
How does Pussycat avoid being damaged by the Spike Growth? Do they just skirt the outside of the growth?
Yes
I’m a little surprised there’s no monk levels for the grappler since they get a bonus to their movement speed. Then again this combo does so much damage I guess a few hundred extra damage doesn’t make a huge difference while the extra bonuses to making the grappling checks do.
Most of the damage comes from dashes and haste (a times 2 is in general more powerful than an increase in movement)
@@aetherwolf9288 But taking monk levels doesn’t remove the haste. They still get the bonus action Dash it just takes a ki point instead of being free (thank god OneDnD is changing that). And the extra base movement is valuable specifically because it gets multiplied so many times. Every +10ft speed adds about a hundred damage in the end.
@@fakjbf3129 I forgot that monks got BA dash xD.
Still it would be an extremely limited resource in comparison. As such it is unusable for multiple encounters.
Also the blade gives the build some attacks if the spikegrowth combo fails (which can happen against spellcasters [no counterspell] and beholders [antimagic field])
This is more accurate
Thanks for the correction
@@fakjbf3129 While the extra speed from a Monk dip would increase the damage, I'm not sure it's worth what you would be giving up. Between Expertise and Psi-Bolstered Knack, the three levels of Rogue do a lot to ensure that the grapple sticks. And the extra ASI at Fighter 6 provides a valuable saving throw proficiency. If you can't land your grapple or if you get paralyzed by Hold Person, the damage goes all the way down to zero.
Another problem with Monk is that you only get the movement bonus if you have no armor. Since this character is the one who is going to be targeted by attacks most often, that could be pretty bad. There are builds (e.g., dump Strength, pump Wisdom, and use the Astral Self subclass) that can try to compensate for this, but I don't think you can ever get back to this build's combination of reasonable tankiness and reliable grappling.
Give us 2 more levels...
I'm about to do a 1-man version of this in my up coming fight in my campaign. Note that this is NOT the optimized version, I have a variant human rune knight / wildfire druid multiclass and am using a potion of speed for the haste. My question is how would you create the best 1-man version of this, with using a potion of speed for haste?
Why not use Psi-Worior? It's psi-leap gives you more speed and makes your walking speed flying speed?
Or what about your rune knight with eagle totem Barbarian instead of rouge? You have your cat claws for attack
I think conceptual builds like this are fun! I think bringing them to the table is totally different. I put this build on the same level of simulacrum shenanigans. If I had a player at my tables try to pull this off I would have a heart to heart with them about what their goals are as a player and what they really want to add to the collaborative narrative.
What's the point of weeks or months of build up to go up against the big bad guy just to have it all over in one round? Some tables and groups might be fine with this... I think most would find it anticlimactic and take the wind out of the sails for most DMS.
To me, these grapple videos that treantmonk have been putting out is just like when he was doing conjure woodland creature druid in other videos. To me they put a big spotlight on huge issues with the game as is. And if D&D ONE doesn't address these issues, I'm going to be more than happy to play a system like dc20.
I assure you the DM was laughing and having as much fun as the rest of us, and the whole thing was run by them before we settled on our characters.
@@TreantmonksTemple Glad to hear! I just can't stop thinking about people showing up to some organized play with this combo and dropping it on some random Judge.
@@dwgautier For sure, just a couple minutes ago I was talking to a player about how much better their weird combo was in-game because they ran it by me the day before.
@@TreantmonksTemple
I like my S.A.U.C.E.s with a fair serving of cheese in it!
with unarmored movement and skill expert/prodigy for athletics expertise, could this finally be a party where a monk could pull their own weight?
Pussycat; A tabaxi, with the following levels:
Fighter (Rune Knight) 7 / Rogue (Soulknife) 3
Josie; A winged tiefling, with the following levels:
Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 1 / Warlock (Genie (Dao), Pact of the Talisman) 3 / Cleric (Peace Domain) / Bard (College of Glamour) 5
Tom-Cat Jones; A plasmoid, with the following levels:
Bard (College of Creation) 10
........
Holy hell, this party is a gaggle of optimization .... Now, whats the backstory and lore reasons, for these multiclassings?
*staring at josie*
But in all seriousness, I'd believe that, surely, some of those classes that Josie is multiclassed into could be moved over to the other members of the party, should they have had more levels at their disposal
Ooze Kitty is defeated by the Arcane Lock spell while she's in the chest. ;-)
Why? We actually considered arcane locking the chests to make them more resilient.
@@TreantmonksTemple The lock is on the outside of the box. You cannot pick the lock. How is your character getting out unless she casts Dispel Magic? Then the enemy trades a 2d level for your 3d spell. A good exchange for the bad guys. If your character can't get out, she can't cast spells on allies or enemies (no line of sight). She's out of comission.
@@fortunatus1 You don't need to open the box. It doesn't matter if its locked or not.
How would the tabaxi-grappler (pussycat) move grappled enemies through the Spike Growth's area, without taking damage, themselves?
From what I understand and saw, Pussycat stays right outside the spike growth and drags the enemies through the spikes in the spaces that are adjacent to their occupied space.
As in they push the enemy into the spikes then takes them out of the spikes, all while staying right outside the spikes, then rinse and repeat until they use up all their movement or the enemy dies.
Just… damn…
The pussycats
4 Warlock 5 Sorcerer x3(One dip in Wizard for gift of alacrity and just a bunch of rituals one dip in peace cleric and one undecided level)
Warlock Dao
Eldritch Blast, ?,?
Hex, Sanctuary, Spike growth, Misty step, ?
Sorcerer
?,?,?,?,?
Shield, Absorb elemets, Silvery Barbs
Enlarge/Reduce
Haste, Counterspell
Metamagic Quicken spell and Twinned spell
Feats War caster and Alert
Ability scores
16 Str
16 Cha
16 Con
8 Int
8 Dex
8 Wis
Same basic idea just making everyone able to fill any role so initiativeorder doesnt matter(making it beneficail to stack as much initiative as possible). And twin haste should make up for the loss of cunning action while quicken spike growth should make setup really fast.
No link to the defeat of the gauntlet video/channel?
Click the links under "The builds in action" in the video description
Can someone explain how the grappler avoids the Spike Growth damage and difficult terrain? I must have missed that part. Do they just drag the enemy around the edge?
Were you concerned about an enemy dispelling Haste or Spike Growth?
The place I could see this being an issue is when a dispel caster is in a group with more powerful enemies. In that case, there might be an issue if the Spike Growth got dispelled before the grappler's turn. That said, the grappler could probably grapple and ready a dash for when spike growth comes back up and still pull the combo off, or use the Glamour Bard reaction move, and many casters would likely die just to that amount of grappled movement. Part of the issue was that the plasmoid was in the box and couldn't cast reaction spells. Another version of this group would probably run Chronurgist in that 3rd slot instead of the second bard which could bring Counterspell for dispels, weird 2 spell concentration tricks so we could stack Haste and Enlarge for example.. or even have the Chronurgist drop Spike Growth and Haste both.. In the end, we decided on the Pegasus over Counterspell based on slots and positioning but it is a potential missing ingredient that would likely be filled at higher levels
We certainly considered it a possibility. Though the window is small - before haste or spike growth and there's nothing to dispel, and after Pussycat's turn they are dead.
@@TreantmonksTemple Fair enough. 🤣
doesn't the grappler take the damage from spike growth to? why or why not?
What about Monk at 7 and Rune Knight at 3? You would trade the Athletics expertise and Psi Knack for an extra 15ft of movement. With all the other buffs to the grapple, the knack seems like overkill. But the 15ft getting doubled by Haste to 30ft and then doubled by Tabaxi to 60ft means and extra 30ft of drag against the big bad, right?
Does Psi-Bolstered knack indeed work with contested checks?
It works with any check that can be failed
@@TreantmonksTemple ahh gotcha, so it works here but not with “degrees of success” checks or initiative rolls
Does the Grappler also take damage when moving through Spike Growth?
please please bring content to 3.5 e
Ok, let see if I can bring THE S.A.U.C.E. 2.0 with only two PCs
"The S.A.U.C.E. Strike Again"
1st PC a range optimaze Gloom Stalker Ranger (5th lvl) with 2 lvls fighter (ideally with 1 lvl Forge cleric)
2nd PC a Moon Druid (5th lvl) 1 lvl Forge cleric (ideally with 2 lvls fighter)
They could have two Net +1
Let say you can add 10ft of rope to the nets.
Strategy (order of operations change pepending on turn order)
1. Gloom Stalker Ranger wins initiative, attact with Net +1 (with at least two attacts)(possibly with advantage) target is restrained and take X handcrossbow damage. Ranger walks to the rope and pick it up.
2. Gloom Stalker Ranger Action Surge, cast Spike Growth, using the 10ft rope on the Net +1 drag target at walking speed + Gloom Stalker bonus, first Spike Growth damage.
3. Druid cast Conjure Animals (eight Giant Owls, Wolfs, other), bonus action Wild Shape to fastest forn available.
4. Druid Action Surge, pickup the rope do a Dash action, more draging, more Spike Growth damage.
5. Eight beasts pickup the rope do a Dash action, more draging, more Spike Growth damage. (8 times)
Now lets say our PCs have some pets like some Mastiff, there is no limit to on how many they can own (as far as I know). But let say they have one each.
6. Mastiffs pickup the rope do a Dash action, more draging, more Spike Growth damage. (2 times)
Let say the PCs had cast Longstrider before hand, what if they are mounted, a party of two is to small so maybe they have two more PCs (2 more druids, 16 more beasts), and so on, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.
Of course this have many points of failure.
I would hope that the nets being magical would be harder to break, by RAR they are immune to Spike Growth damage.
This is inefective agains Huge or larger targets.
It is a fun to come up with this variation though.
Bonus names:
"A good day to S.A.U.C.E."
"S.A.U.C.E. Wars: Return of the Marinara"
"S.A.U.C.E. Almighty"
"S.A.U.C.E.busters"
"S.A.U.C.E. Gump"
"The Last S.A.U.C.E.bender"
"S.A.U.C.E. of the Dead"
"S.A.U.C.E. Jam"
If they encounter Air Elementals, then they would have no choice but to just attack it regularly, right? Am I correct that the grappler has no way to deal with Grapple-immune enemies?
How much damage did the tabaxi (Pussycat) take running through the Spike Growth? How did you mitigate this damage?
they run around the outside
Disclaimer: I have not watched the Gauntlet, maybe this was answered there.
What would happen if an enemy were to cast levitate on the chest you were hiding inside? Or simply chuck them overboard from your flying cart?
Where the chests chained to the cart?
Ok but what do we do if we take it to higher levels ?
I’m still confused why the grappler isn’t getting shredded by the spike growth as well as the enemies. I don’t see it addressed anywhere and there is no caveat about no friendly fire. So why isn’t the tabaxi getting destroyed too?
You keep the grappled creature in an adjacent space so the grappler stays a space out of the spikes. Can easily describe it as holding them by the head/neck and dragging their lower body through the spikes.
The grappler doesn't go in the spike growth.
@@TreantmonksTemple Ah you run along the outside space! It’s very obvious in retrospect haha, thanks for clarifying!
With these things I mis the logic thing, fine most will accept this, but for to start with to go with grapple somebody you must go yourself also go to that field.
So if you were in a campaign - not a straight 10 level build - how would you level them? I dont think I'd go 7 rune knight before rogue - the expertise and cunning action are SUPER IMPORTANT to the build - but do you go 3 fighter 2 rogue then back to fighter? 4 fighter for the feat then go rogue?
The Sorlock Clerbard (Bardic?) seems okay, but i think I'd 'top it off' with the Peace cleric and go Bard after Sorlock - especially since Divine Soul gets you the spells you want from Cleric anyways.
I *might* enjoy seeing this combo come to gether of a campaign. Starts out innocent enough. A grappler, a sorcerer, and a bard - this looks fun enough. Oh, spike growth. Cool cheese grating - just a touch of opti. Oh... now haste? And cunning action? Oh. Oh no, its too late!!!
How is the grappling dragger immune to the spike growth?
They don't go in it
@@TreantmonksTemple I think I was confused from the first set of images/strategy discussed in your last video which was to cast this around a group of enemies while you are outside, which would require you to go inside to grapple in the first place.
I think I understand now, you're casting this so that they are already at the outer rim within, so that you can move up to but not enter, grapple, then drag them around the rim.
You're treating spike growth like a giant toilet swirly of death.
Wondered that same thing myself.
Hi Chris question. How is pussy cat not taking any damage? Reading spike growth it reads creatures not enemies. Maybe I'm missing something?
Links to gauntlet seem to be missing
Thank you, corrected.
And this is why, in the system I'm designing, the Spike Growth equivalent spell is going to be A) Druid-exclusive, and B) each individual square of the Spike Growth breaks after it deals damage.
But how does the athlete not die from the spike growth damage also?
Because they don't enter the spike growth
@@TreantmonksTemple I will definitely go watch the session. I was primarily confused because at our table, grappled creatures inhabit the same square(s)
I just look at the sheet, and maybe it is me.. But how can Josie pick the thunderwave spell as a warlock. Isn't Josie a Dao Genie Warlock? I know it is a minor detail, and not important for the build.
i believe you are right. Didnt even think about thunderwave not being a warlock spell. Probably swap it for Hellish Rebuke? - for the integrity of the gauntlet it could have been taken on Bard instead of Longstrider which Tomcat has or Detect Magic. Bad Genie implementation strikes again.
EDIT: whoops, this dosen't work. I'll leave the comment below.
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If you had a 4th character, would you consider somehow getting a Scribes Wizard with Spike Growth (probably from multi-classing), so that you can get Spike Growths with different damage types in case of emergencies?
I don't think so, the damage type is pretty reliable.
this does not work. There is no way to get spike growth into a wizard spellbook. scribes wizard states
"When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell's formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend"
@@skymanta1222 - ah, good point!
I forgot that detail, I think I corssed some wires because I've been playing a lot of Eberron Dragonmarked characters recently, which *do* get spells added to their class spell list, so perhaps I subconciously I forgot how hard it is to get spells added to your class list in general.
Congratulations! You can now tell your mom that you’ve won dnd.
She will be so proud
im sad because my dm banned peace cleric due to its OP bonds 😢
I NEVER play Peace cleric but I did here. SHAMELESS
But doesnt the grappler also take the damage, i mean ok ,you can drag it along the edge but if I was the dm, id probably require some rolls to not stumble into it with that speed
It's not RAW to roll such a thing
@@user-oz5hb8fx2d i think rules as written says the dm makes judgements when the rules are insufficient or they otherwise see fit to do so. As long as these rules are made known beforehand or atleast are judged consistently, this is very much according to the rules and what the dm is supposed to do. The rules dont provide a clear judgement on what happens when a character runs 70mph along a ridge of supernatural spikes, dragging a resisting opponent.
You keep the grappled creature in an adjacent space so the grappler stays a space out of the spikes. Can easily describe it as holding them by the head/neck and dragging their lower body through the spikes.
@@DaCrump oh that part i get, just the lieklyhood of doing that without stepping over at 70mph im a bit iffy about
I wouldn't expect a DM to say I needed to make saves to not stumble into areas I didn't want to move to on my turn because I have high speed. I would accept whatever ruling they had of course, but I think I would be grumbling to myself.
You could add a casting of Longstrider into the mix for another 10 ft (doubled 3x) of movement.
we had longstrider
You can only benefit from Longstrider once.
I feel like repelling blast [and/or grasp of hadar] would have been a better choice than agonizing, especially if there are multiple enemies, which seems like it could be 1 more weakness here. It could also reduce the amount an ally needs to travel in the spikes to get to the enemy [and grasp of hadar could bring a flying enemy to within reach if they're only 15' or less above them]
Another is attrition damage due to enemies that positioning themselves in the center of the spikes. It deals average 30 damage to the grappler if they have to move 15' to the target and then exit the spike growth [40 damage if they have to move 20']. Though the first round the caster could ready action cast spike growth to go into effect after the grappler is outside of the target area
Pcat can grapple drag 4 enemies if needed. Repelling blast is like 20 extra damage sometimes vs 8 from AB all the time
@@mathguydave3699 2 things: how are they grappling 4 enemies? It requires a free hand, so for most rounds its 2 targets, possibly 3 if using their hasted action [which actually makes a decent case for the Astral Self Monk or possible simic hybrid, that one kind of has weird mechanics for the 2 appendages]. With action surge you could potentially grapple up to 2 more and potentially 1 more with haste if it's not spent dashing to ignore the terrain penalty, but this is all contingent upon the previous targets dying before you arrive at that point in the action economy, and pcat can't bonus action dash on rounds that they're using their BA for anything else [giant might, storm rune, hill rune, second wind, etc.]
Points of value for repelling blast:
• When you can use it, it's averaging 10 slashing damage per hit within the aoe, or 5 for the first hit if they are starting outside of the growth.
• When there are more enemies than the grappler can handle
• -To reduce the amount that the grappler has to shred themselves and waste their momentum getting to the enemies. For every 5' you have to travel to reach the enemy, you take 10 points of damage to return to the border with them [halved if hill rune is in effect] and every 5' traveled requires 20' to return with them [halved if you are -*-able-*- to take the dash action due to mobile]- Forgot they could fly over it, but still applicable in lower ceiling environments (especially if they're size is increased) or if they need to expend extra movement swimming
• When there are enemies beyond the aoe's 20' radius. Such as for optimized placement, or to reduce the gap when an enemy has escaped the spike growth and is running away. Every 5' they move requires 20' of movement to return with them, -more if starting within the spike growth- unless bypassed with flight
• When you want to put distance between the enemy and you.
Points of value for agonizing blast:
• +4 damage per hit