Primer Sign Pressure Evaluation Revisited
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- Turns out that utilizing the efficiency of shorter handgun cases, there is more room for performance than reported in most loading manuals that are forced to be conservative because of the old guns out there. Reloaders can use primer pressure sign evaluations to good effect.
I’m the FNG in reloading. Been reloading little over 6 months. I stay in the low end. My mentor makes some serious hot loads that I don’t mess with. I’m going to forward this video to him. He’s always talking to me about reading primers. Thank you. You’ve gained a subscriber.
I miss the RUclips full reloading videos 🙁
I know right
rickrn2 - There are some full reloading videos under the OPEN HOUSE ALL VIEWERS videos on the 3 Circles patreon site for all visitors to see. Also, if YT does wind up banning all the reloading videos as they have threatened to do, the Reloaders Network is a very fine place to go. Best to ya, Steve
Never stop making videos. Love your stuff and the way you explain things.
Hey Steve, I would have guessed the flat primer would have been the most pressure. Thanks for the lesson.
I have reloaded for years but I have seen many a primer completely flat with the machine marks from the frame in the primer from magnum revolvers with factory ammo. I don't worry about primer signs unless the primer pushes out around the firing pin.
joewcolt - You are referencing the tying up of a cylinder - not a good thing for sure. Hot ammo will do that. Sometimes oil in the chamber can do that with hot ammo. A defective gun can do that as well with magnum loads. I once had a revolver that would shoot standard ammo just fine. But as soon as the first magnum was fired, the cylinder tied up because of case set back. Thanks for your comment, joe.. Steve
I load slightly under the published high mark of the load data spec when previous loads have shown no signs of high pressure so , for me I don’t have much practical experience with over the top high pressure indicators , other than what I have seen on video ! If there is a need for greater performance from any caliber , I would consider changing caliber’s. That may sound sissy but , I have lived 59 years without damaging or destroying any gun or injuring myself or anyone standing next to me ! For the high rollers who challenge the capabilities of guns and loads , I’m greatful for the opportunity to watch videos ! Thanks for the great cookies .
Thank you for sharing all your knowledge with us
Wow, good demonstration of why a chronograph is important.
I find that sometimes Federal primer pockets are a bit loose. I hand prime everything. It's easy to feel when a primer practically falls in. The primers sometimes flatten more than they would with other headstamps, so I try not to use Federal cases when working up loads.
_Suburban_ - That's a mighty serious vehicle. We rented one recently to make a sojourn to Seattle Washington - four of us and a hefty cargo. The feel of priming is important to our ammo consistency. If I ever get a primer going in without the same feel, I set those aside for sighters and fouling shots. Good shootin' to ya, Steve
An interesting experiment would be to compare primer sign from same load same gun but soft primers like federal vs hard primers like CCI. Reading pressure signs is tricky!!!
Good point!
Talking about depth of firing pin strike on the primer, while loading some reduced 223 rifle loads, I noticed that firing pin strikes are much deeper on reduced loads than on normal pressure loads. My reduced loads are producing 1600 FPS and QL estimates pressure in 18K psi range. I imagine that high (normal) pressure loads pushes the dimple outward resulting in a reduced depth of the dimple. So I’m learning that a deep dimple is not a sign of over pressure. Or at least not based on my experience.
Hey hate to bother you about something different.
But I have never reloaded. But I am thinking of the Lee set the one you use a hammer . I have found a 94 375 big bore at a good I think price.
But if you can find it the 375 win. Ammo is very expincve. $ 45-69 i have been told you can use 33-55 ammo in it.
But it's expincve just a little less. $ 36-58. And is way less powerful.
Have you ever messed with a 375 win? If so is it worth the truble?
Is the little Lee kit a god way to start?
Can you use the coted bullets you have talked about in some of your videos with it?
And what do you think about using the 38-55 ammo in it?
BTW Buffalo bore states it's safe with there ammo
Any like your videos
And thanks for your help and time.
Have y
Thanks for the video 👍. This is a topic in which I can always afford to devote extra attention. I'm forever going back n fourth when checking my primers, never quite satisfied w my discission. Constantly worried I'm getting too close to that, "back off" mark... I end up under charging so many of my loads. So frustrating, It's like OCD for me 😬!!! AHGG!!! (I need a chronograph), Thanks FC.
TheReindeer TheRabbitTheBat - Chronographs are nice to have, but not essential (I don't see many of 'em at the range - most of the time, mine is the only one in sight). There's nothing wrong with loading up to 3/10ths of a grain below the max published loading data and getting good accuracy - and being happy with that. Once you get real comfortable with primer signs, case extraction and gun functioning signs for pressure of your loads, you can venture to max incrementally with confidence. Erring on the side of safety and caution is always good. That's what our loading manuals are for. Good shootin' to ya, Steve
So would the 44 Russian burn more of its powder in the barrel VS the 44 mag burning most of it in the case? Great vid!!!!
cory8791 - When the primer detonates, the powder ignites and a portion of the powder charge is pushed against the base of the bullet. We know this because powder grain structures can be observed on the base of recovered cast bullets. If the powder charge does not fill the case volume, that dynamic is different with different powder positioning at ignition. Powder that is against the base of the bullet may indeed burn in the first part of the barrel thusly. The bigger case will not generate the pressure that the same powder charge will yield in a smaller case. We do know that excessively large powder charges will not burn completely with said barrel lengths so that power is wasted. Progressive powders in these 7.5 grain charges in all three of these cases probably has at least some of the burn still continuing after the bullet has left the case. Happens in milliseconds though. Internal ballistics is a real scream, isn't it?? Best to ya, Steve
I just looking at flattening, flow and extraction. If also clocking velocity you should have a pretty solid idea of “hot or not”.
So basically what this video is telling me. You can't go by primer signs at all Just how hard it is to extract the shell.
Loosening primer pockets (Federal not included) along with higher than expected velocities are the only somewhat reliable way to estimate pressure short of special testing equipment.
Cylinder gap between it and the frame ...I had this primer flating with store bought ammo and my reloads in my 41 magnum lets the case rim bounce off of the frame possible causing the primer to move rewards out of the case flating the primer they make shims for S&W not sure about other brands
Chris 338 - My first 357 Magnum was a M28 Highway Patrolman S & W. I shot that gun so much with heavy loads, it developed end shake. Not just the primer flattening you mention, but I did blow the head off one of my 357 cases. Solution was to have a gunsmith shim the end shake, but I just sold that gun to someone who wanted a home defense gun instead. It was still a reliable gun, so I put M29 grips on it and sold it at an attractive price. Back in those days, all you needed was a bill of sale, hand him the gun and take the cash. We used to buy used guns through the want ads and face to face. Talk about freedom... Best to ya, Steve
Interesting. I'm hoping you'll be back to explain some more on this.
TheOkWoodsman - Yes, and as with the scientific method...each testing raises more questions that prompt more testing thereby increasing our base of knowledge. In our world of shooting, there is endless possibilities. Have a great day, Denver. The results are in the cue. Steve
pull the bullet of factory rounds if possible from the same brand of your primers resize them ,leave the factory primer in the case load the case with your powder and bullet ,compare the fired primer with a fired factory round primer from the same box. you get a idea . if a revolver or other gun has a lot of headspace and or loose primerpockets in the case you get also flat primers
This video broke my brain when you said 904 on the 44 mag
John B. - A 44 cal. 7.5 grain Unique charge / 240-250 grain bullet (the Skeeter load used in this video) gives you that velocity in the 44 Mag. Some 44 Mag shooters readily state that the 44 Mag can easily be loaded full spectrum from 650 fps to 1500 fps, and that is true. But if 900 fps was all that was desired, the 44 Spl case is more efficient and consistent without any real loss of accuracy. The chronograph tells the story with the efficiency and consistency. So far, accuracy testing supports no significant loss of accuracy, but even if enough data was gathered to establish that, the belief that "+ bullet jump = loss of accuracy" seems to be held as a given by many. Have a great day, Steve
I have learned that over calibrated cases can show signs for flat primers without any high presures. reason is that the case has to much room to grow, and the primer gets "ahead" of the case expansion, and thuss get sqeezed when the case cathes up. You ned ALOT of presure to flatten a primer in a correctly sized case. but some calibers are more prone to it then other.
I am not a hand loader so I don't know much about this. I am dyslexic and getting number mix up would be bad. But I do injoy watch for the pure learning about it.
Since you shoot a lot of the biger guns. With a 2 in snbnosed 44 what do you think about the 200 gr hp win. Silver tip? Or the federal 200 gr swc hp?
I usto just carry the 44 mag. But my wife got me one of taures ultra lite 44 spc. So I carry it most of the time.
I started with the hornday crital defense. I shot a small hog with it. At about 20 feet. It didn't do to well.
It's my ccw carry gun but the reason I have for the most part used the 44 was the chance of having to shoot a bull or stud now these averaging wildhogs are way more likely than some one.
Thanks
Tbj Tbj - Congrats on your big bore snubby...!! Even Dirty Harry used 44 Spl loads in his Maggie - even with Hollywood flap, there was some wisdom there. You have a serious defense piece there. Any of the ammo you cite in your comment will do for any defense, deer or hog purposes you mention. And for inexpensive practice, you could load up the Lee 200 grain RNFP with 6.9 grains of Unique to duplicate those factory loads and save same for carry. Good shootin' to ya, Steve
@@FortuneCookie45LC thanks
Nice video, can you do the same with the .357 Mag, .38 Sp., .38 Long and .38 Short Colt please?
"A little more?" Hmmm. I think you are wrong and encouraging people to take dangerous chances with their powder charges. Richard Lee wrote about the dangers of "a little more" powder in his book "Modern Reloading" second edition. There is a point where an increase of just 0.1 (one tenth), of a grain will push a powder charge into the dangerous pressure range. Often "a little more powder" doesn't yield any appreciable velocity, or accuracy. The gains are too small for the risk incurred. Study the load data on the Hodgdon online reloading website. Take note that the highest velocity isn't always produced with the highest pressure.
I like your videos FC, but this one generates concern. We don't need people blowing up their guns from using "just a little more" powder based on a fired prime's appearance.
R, Steve
I believe you are taking what both Fortune Cookie and Richard Lee said out of context. Good judgment is the best protector in almost any situation. I have reloaded over fifty years and have many times used the same sort of evaluation process FC is using and never damaged a gun. I have seen guns of others blown up, but it was always due to a double charge,or firing another round after a squib load, for instance, not from carefully working up a load while judiciously examining fired cases for pressure signs. In many cases the cartridge FC is working with (like 44 Russian and 44 Special) are loaded very lightly in deference to the fact that there are older, weaker guns out there, some 140 years old or more in the case of the Russian. But if one has a strong modern gun like a Ruger, there is no reason not to explore the capabilities of these cartridges as long is it is done carefully by an experienced reloader like Fortune Cookie who can assess the safety margin he is working with.
In the youtube option to report a comment they need to add a check box for "insufferable Karen". 😂
Is it possible for a bullet to achieve greater velocity with lower peak pressure is the barrel is longer for more time with the pressure acting on it?
Hey fortunecookie!
Long time viewer and I have 2 questions/ideas for videos.
1. have you ever gotten your lead levels checked? I have been worried about lead exposure from firing, handling weapons and ammo, reloading shotshells, collecting range scrap, melting lead and casting round balls...
2. Could you do a video on small caliber reloading? I have a 32 acp and a 380, and I would like to cast bullets and reload for them but you only focus on the bigger rounds and I would like a great video from you on smaller stuff!
Thanks
Could you do something similar showing the effects of different primer brands?
I began loading my 9mm with CCI primers and then had some Remington ones on hand. I used them in the exact same load and the fired cases had VERY flattened primers, with cratered firing pin indents. Same load that always worked just fine with other primers looked dangerous if you only considered how the primer looked. I don’t use Remington primers anymore after that.
did you use the same type of primer ,small pistol standaard and not magnum or leadfree
I knew this was a trick question from the start , so I was thinking the Russian from the start . What got my attention is it looks like the primer face picked up the breach face texture ?? Hard to tell from the photo ??
Thanks Dan for doing the observations. Yes, it was a bit flip flopped. None of the cases showed high pressure, so the rating of lower pressure levels can be a confusing exercise with conflicting flattening and indent signs as this video brings out. Since there are no high pressure signs here, it's all good. Have a great day, Steve
Fortunecookie . This was a prime video thanks for the info .
Very informative
Trick question. Can't tell by looking at three different cartridges. Watching from the start of load development and numerous other things only gives a general idea. Get a case stuck or a primer to blow out and you'll know you screwed up.
Hey I need some advice. Would you recommend putting iron signs on a bolt action 270win? Thanks
Am I mistaken?Thinking of a bullet in an automatic and not a revolver. Bullet speed is not a link to pressure unless the projectiles have the same weight and same coefficient of friction in the barrel. A more accurate measure would be the inertia of the bullet. taking account of the weight of bullet and friction of the bullet at firing. Higher bullet weight and friction will give higher pressure, not necessarily higher velocity. Is this the same for revolvers?
Chris Smith - You also need to take into account the bearing surface. A higher coefficient of friction but with less bearing surface would yield the same bore friction as a lower friction bullet but with more bearing surface. Also, the depth of the rifling would also be at play. A barrel with deeper rifling would have more friction with the bullet. You would only compare pressure and velocity with the same bullet weight as you have already pointed out that heavier bullets shoot slower with identical powder charges than lighter bullets. Going to lighter bullets (less bearing surface) with expansion with maximum loads was the driver for Super Vel ammo back in the 70s - and Super Vel has risen again. This discussion is all good stuff.... Steve
I am not sure that the science community would be satisfied with the simple inference that the muzzle velocity was a confirmation of the pressure in this comparison. You are essentially stating that low muzzle velocity means low cartridge pressure. I am not sure but I don't think that would always be true. You neglect to identify other impacting elements of the process. For example , you did not qualify what the mass of the projectiles were for each round in the comparison. A significant greater mass of projectile could be enough to show higher pressures in a lower muzzle velocity. Did you use identical projectiles in all three rounds?? I have a science background (albeit rusty now) so I think the experiment did not have enough controls described for your statement to be taken as valid. Intuitively I would agree. But intuition only leads to hypotheses. Properly controlled experiments lead to results that could verify the hypotheses. I think there are several other controls that would have to be introduced for you to be able to confidently state what you stated. ...... :) Interesting information though.
The weight of the bullet that’s being pushed down the barrel is a factor too. From the 44 Russ to 44 mag, I would expect to see much higher pressure in the 44 mag due to the heavier bullet. Is this assumption wrong?
Fortune Cookie reloads his own cartridges so I'm pretty sure he used the same bullet in each caliber . Probably the 245 grain semi-wadcutter as 7.5 grains of unique behind the afore mentioned bullet in a .44 special is what is known as the "Skeeter load" . This load is named after a famous gun writer who wrote for a gun magazine (forget which one) and who liked hot .44 special loads.
Luc Ferguson - Yes, heavier bullets put into the same powder charge will have higher pressure and lower velocity. Takes more powder to get the same velocity with a heavier bullet. And often times, trying to get high velocity with a heavier bullet cannot be achieved without going over the max SAAMI pressure = unsafe. That's why, if you examine the loading manuals, you will see lighter max powder charges with heavier bullets. Solution is to go to a bigger case volume cartridge with slower burning smokeless powder to take advantage of progressive burn = higher velocity with heavier bullets safely. This video was to show that smaller cases do have potential in the above discussion, that has not been taken advantage of because of all the weak old guns out there. In a 44 magnum revolver, that potential can be realized. Stay safe though and work up carefully watching for pressure signs. Best to ya, Steve
Kasumi Kojiro - Thanks for your comment. Indeed, same bullet and the gun is the strong Ruger 44 Mag Super Redhawk, but any 44 magnum or modern 44 Spl would provide all the strength needed and more for the loads in this video. The Skeeter Load put up in 44 Russian cases is going to be a favorite load of mine henceforth. 1050 fps with a 250 grain hard cast bullet with fine shootability in my 44 mag Vaquero or 44 Super Blackhawk would be a fine trail or range load for sure..!! Skeeter wrote for Shooting Times, and his relaxed style was much appreciated. Best to ya, bro.... Steve
@@FortuneCookie45LC Thanks for the reply. Just wondering , how is the accuracy with the short Russian round out of the magnum cylander ? I have dies and brass but haven't tried it yet .
Each care had the same potential energy.
I assume all were fired from the same 44 Magnum revolver.
The distance from the primer to the Cylinder Gap is the same. So the burn time in the cylinder & barrel cannot be the reason why The Russian produced more velocity.
A variable would be the distance in the cylinder the bullet travels after breaking free from the crimp. The Russian seems to be in the sweet spot.
So, are you colluding with The Russian to make 44 Russian Great Again ?
The difference is that there's a lot more powder to air ratio in the shorter Russian case than there is in the .44 Mag case.
Hey Carlos, how have you been? Fantastic!! No to colluding with the Russians. A lot of their angst is that 25 million Russians died in WWII so that their claim that the victory against the Nazis was bought with Russian blood still drives their politics today. And 13 million Chinese died. Perhaps it isn't all funny that these two who lost all those people are our two worst enemies today. 7.5 grains of Unique in the 44 Russian case and any good 240-250 grain cast bullet is going to be a favorite load for my 44 Magnum revolvers. If I want more power, I'll go to 10 grains of Unique in the 44 Mag case. And for full 44 magnums - 22 grains of 2400. Good shootin' to ya, Steve
Doing as well as possible.
The Genocide that the Soviet & Asian people's withstood from the Axis formed a fear of the Western powers. It also left them ripe for a Nationalist Government to protect them. Hopefully things will continue to erode the walls that have been built.
I am curious about a '38 Russian' to bridge between 38, 38+, and 357. Ditto on 45 caliber. The 44 Russian seems unbelievable since they designed it without an iPhone App...
I poke holes in paper so I don't need big heavy bullets. I question why I load 158 grain bullets for 38's other than because. Then I see 230 grain bowling pin wad cutters in 38 and see a 45 powered 38 tumbling bullet.
This is the worst hobby ever...
T
@@livincincy4498 The closest thing to a ".38 Russian" would be .38 Long Colt. Steve has done some stuff with .38 Short Colt, but the results were unimpressive.
Perhaps .38 Long Colt would be different?
I have thought that the 38+P was the elusive 38 Russian as far as performance.
Taurus makes a DA / SA revolver with a quick cylinder change that shoots 9mm, 38, & 357. The 9mm shoots like what I suspect a " 38 Russian " would.
I will have to look at the relative capacity of a 38 long colt to a 9 mm. I suspect that trimming a 38 to a 9mm case length could be done with a Lee tool.
Keep in mind there can be variances between different brands of brass with same powder loads.
👍 Thank you
I was thinking they all look fine.
Primer's lie don't go by primers. Got it.
Flat primers are a no no.
Not necessarily, as demonstrated by this video.
44 special 44 Russian
Danny Tapia - Yes, and yes... we don't need the big 44 Mag case unless we are rip roarin' hair on fire hell for leather... hmmm...you get the idea... Steve