Its good that you touched on the difference between one and two way systems, but I think its worth going a little deeper. DJI and WS require retransmission because the VTX sends h265 compressed video. With compression like that, the loss of small bits of key information can lead to the rest of the information being useless. The whole point of compressing is removing data redundancy, so if you dont get everything, you often get nothing. Eg, h265 compresses by comparing frames over time and sending only differences to a keyframe. So if you didnt get all you needed from a keyframe, differences from that keyframe become useless information, and you get corrupted video for the next 50-100+ frames. This is why WS and DJI absolutely depend on retransmission. And if retransmission doesnt work the first time, they need to try again, and again which can lead to stuttering and freezing. HDzero sends uncompressed video, this allows the goggles to show whatever it is receiving, even if some or much of that is junk data. There is no dependency on old data, every frame is discarded after being shown, no need to ask retransmission just grab and show the next frame . This helps with latency but just as importantly for long range pilots, it allows you to reestablish a link instantly after you lost it , because there is no connection with HDZ, no handshake. With DJI and WS this may take several seconds or never happen at all.
That's a lot of words to say that 03 looked the best and WS came in second. For break up HDZero still can't seem to maintain a picture that doesn't turn to snow more than 50 metres away.
@@baughaninastorm No one flies HDZ because it *looks* best. If thats all you care about, and you fly large enough quads, O3 is for you. People fly HDZ because it *works* better in many, if not most situations, when things like latency and predictability and link recovery matter more than eye candy. You can use a gopro for that.
@@vertigo2893 I'm not saying HDzero doesn't have it's uses. Range, penetration and image quality are not in its wheel house. Putting a 1080 tag on a camera would seek to induce the impression it's gone to be HD. If I had the skill to race I'd probably fly HDZero. I genuinely hate DJI and I don't even see what other people see and that is that CADDX are somehow the people's champion. I just don't get an apples and oranges comparison
@@baughaninastorm I think that the 03 and walksnail were very close in this comparison, and with the WS "pro" camera, I bet you couldn't tell which was which through the goggles.
Yeah HDZero is unbelievable for me and my fast Freestyle flying and MultiGP Racing! DJI V2 System and O3 are great for slow flowy Freestyle and exploring! I own and love both! Cheers and Happy New Year 🎊🎉
I wonder how HDZero would look if the lost data was replaced with a smoothed average from the surrounding data, reducing the harsh visual impact of the image breakup?
That assumes the receiver can differentiate good data from corrupted or missing data. Im not convinced it can. Also, you could only do that after you received/processed the entire frame, so I imagine it would add non trivial latency. If it is possible it would be nice to have the option, but Id probably keep it turned off if it adds a single frame of latency. Im more interested if it would be possible to have frame per frame compression (mjpeg style). That would have its downsides for sure, might also increase latency, create weird artifacts, but the decreased bandwidth requirements might provide significantly better range. That would be an option I might be interested in in some situations
@@vertigo2893 it can differentiate good from bad data. Cyclic Redundancy Check and Error Correction algos are a thing. But it won't retransmit. I guess if hdz could double the latency by sending the same data twice, but it's not clear that would also double the range.
@@destroyer-of-disks hd0 image quality is already very good I think. Penetration not that much. For some type of flights I would enjoy a more latent link mode in exchange of the extra penetration. But maybe that's not possible, just speculating.
I have v2 and v3 vtx's. Also have several runcams including the 90fps. My best penetration has been with circular polarized antennas on both ends. I also have flat panels designed for RHCP antennas. At 200mw I'm more worried about losing control surfaces before I'm out of clean video range. Weaving trees is no issue ....
Please explain the last part of your sentence. "To achieve that optimal experience, I recommend utilizing the Micro V3 and the Freestyle VTX V2. It's worth noting that the original Freestyle VTX is not compatible with any builds. "Not compatible with any builds"? Thanks
Okay now I understand. Yes I have 4 of the version 1 Freestyle VTXs in Quads and one still in the box. Picked up 4 of the V2 Kits on Black Friday Sale and just received 4 of the new V3 Micro cameras.@@DarrenAllatt
@@DarrenAllatt I've got it in my 5 inch tbs source one v3 and my 7inch v3...it fits sticks out a teeny bit but i freestyle with it bando bash and I'm fine....
I enjoy the comparison to other HD systems. However, I am at the point of gearing up for FPV and really need some comparison advice. High-end analog or HDZero... ?? I need a system that is really stable and as clear as possible to 250 feet. That's all. But that does include working around a house. I have a 200mW all-in-one unit and Emax 800D goggles. I also have a 1200line camera and a VTX that goes to a watt. I'm ready to upgrade. Pricing HDZero looks like around 450 for everything if I go Emax HD box Transporters and a Nano V3 Lite camera and VTX. Must have light weight. Considering my modest needs, I wonder if the investment in HDZero is really worth it. 450 buys some fine analog stuff... BTW... I have no interest in posting video... just flying. 720p30 is fine. Kinda need box goggles, too. Opinions?
I would not bother with analog unless you already have goggles for it, all HD systems are just going to get better and slightly cheaper over time so you'll end up there anyway so might as well start with it
Why do you need boxed goggles (and not adjustable diopter) ? Anyway i see some mixed reports on the transporter HD. Apparently it overheats and starts stuttering. Not sure if that is a universal problem or if it has been fixed, but be on the lookout for that, you dont want that to happen. In your shoes, I would either go for the "real" hdzero goggle if you can afford it, or get a (used?) analog goggle with a good module. Something like a TBS fusion really makes a lot of difference im both range and image quality and high quality analog really isnt half bad. I still use it a lot despite also having HDZ and walksnail.
I switched from WS V1 back to Analog. I was so disappointed by the light handling of the WS. I offen fly against the sun an can not see what is under the trees in the shadow. With the Ratel2 this is no problem but I gave up on rhe WS. Am I to stupid to find the correct settings on the WS? Is HDZ better in the light handlinf / WDR?
@@DarrenAllatt so that"s what I said,1080p30 is still a no go. Thanks again. 1080p30 has been out for a year now, reviews were praising it, but the reality is that it stuters. I've been very patient, but My rigs will move to Walksnail 1080p100 which seems to have the same latency, but with actual fluidity, and probably better image.
@@cedricgrandseigne 1080p30 hasn’t been out for a year… it’s been in beta for a year. The first native 1080p camera has been out for two weeks, and the issue was discovered a week ago and only effects some of the micro v3 cameras. It sounds like you just need an excuse to justify a decision
I've never tried HDzero... Of course, I like 'wire speed' methodolgy that hdz uses - kind of like redbook CD... but it just looks so shitty, by comparison. I suppose if I were flying "bando" or something, I might prefer it... Oh, I guess that I'll have to try it someday
It doesnt look as good as WS or DJI (if those have a good signal), but it also doesnt look all that shitty live. What you are seeing is the original uncompressed signal, encoded by the DVR, re-encoded by video editing and re-encoded by youtube. Before you say thats true for all systems, other digital systems transmit h265, the goggles dont need to encode it, just save it. And other systems dont have random noise, you cant compress random and that makes it much harder to re-encode sunch video at low bitrates. Analog has the same problem, DVRs and youtube look a lot worse than the original feed. Watch some raw DVR at least to judge it on. I expected to hate HDZ breakup, but in reality, the noise looks like snow on an otherwise perfectly crisp and sharp image. I find it easy to ignore and easier to deal with than analog breakup (which often distorts the entire image) or the pixelation and stuttering of walksnail. YMMV.
If you get a chance to fly it before you buy it, I want to suggest flying the Nano90 Cam. I started with DJI, and still fly it when I want to record a perfect sunrise, and not have to carry a payload camera. Or, since DJI gets better penetration, I like to use it to do my scouting. But after sitting behind the 540@90, that HDZero's Nano90 does, I tend to fly HDZero most of the time. The best way to describe the feeling, would be to say that it felt like I was sitting right behind the camera's glass. But those words would not have meant much to me, before I experienced it. After a few weeks, maybe a few days, of flying it, my mind stopped reacting to the rainbow sparkles, as if they are in my way. I just kind of see through them, if that makes sense. Now that I'm used to the sparkles, my brain perceives them like a visual beeper. They tell me that the video signal became weaker, and that information loops back into my sticks. I hope I communicated a clear enough picture of my own experience, that you might have an easier time deciding what's right for you. Happy flying.
You seem to forget not everyone flies quads. Latency of a few dozen milliseconds isn’t even noticeable on fixed wing. The constant interference of HDZero is though.
![Eminem - Fuel (feat. JID) [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t5H_CewqpKA/mqdefault.jpg)
Its good that you touched on the difference between one and two way systems, but I think its worth going a little deeper. DJI and WS require retransmission because the VTX sends h265 compressed video. With compression like that, the loss of small bits of key information can lead to the rest of the information being useless. The whole point of compressing is removing data redundancy, so if you dont get everything, you often get nothing. Eg, h265 compresses by comparing frames over time and sending only differences to a keyframe. So if you didnt get all you needed from a keyframe, differences from that keyframe become useless information, and you get corrupted video for the next 50-100+ frames. This is why WS and DJI absolutely depend on retransmission. And if retransmission doesnt work the first time, they need to try again, and again which can lead to stuttering and freezing. HDzero sends uncompressed video, this allows the goggles to show whatever it is receiving, even if some or much of that is junk data. There is no dependency on old data, every frame is discarded after being shown, no need to ask retransmission just grab and show the next frame . This helps with latency but just as importantly for long range pilots, it allows you to reestablish a link instantly after you lost it , because there is no connection with HDZ, no handshake. With DJI and WS this may take several seconds or never happen at all.
Mate that is absolute gold! Thank you for sharing 🙏
That's a lot of words to say that 03 looked the best and WS came in second. For break up HDZero still can't seem to maintain a picture that doesn't turn to snow more than 50 metres away.
@@baughaninastorm No one flies HDZ because it *looks* best. If thats all you care about, and you fly large enough quads, O3 is for you. People fly HDZ because it *works* better in many, if not most situations, when things like latency and predictability and link recovery matter more than eye candy. You can use a gopro for that.
@@vertigo2893 I'm not saying HDzero doesn't have it's uses. Range, penetration and image quality are not in its wheel house. Putting a 1080 tag on a camera would seek to induce the impression it's gone to be HD.
If I had the skill to race I'd probably fly HDZero. I genuinely hate DJI and I don't even see what other people see and that is that CADDX are somehow the people's champion. I just don't get an apples and oranges comparison
@@baughaninastorm I think that the 03 and walksnail were very close in this comparison, and with the WS "pro" camera, I bet you couldn't tell which was which through the goggles.
i got both the nano v3 and the micro v3 and they are really good cams i fly them in 720p60
they are really good for low light flying too
Cheers for your efforts over this past year Darren. I hope you enjoy some time off over the festive season.
Thank you for your support Cliff, much appreciated!! Best wishes!
Yeah HDZero is unbelievable for me and my fast Freestyle flying and MultiGP Racing! DJI V2 System and O3 are great for slow flowy Freestyle and exploring! I own and love both! Cheers and Happy New Year 🎊🎉
Hdzero looks better than what i expected.
Yeah it was quite impressive
Ik😑 I went dji...... kindaaa not happy now😂
I wonder how HDZero would look if the lost data was replaced with a smoothed average from the surrounding data, reducing the harsh visual impact of the image breakup?
even if the bad data went to black and white not rainbows. I'd like to see a buffer added so good data stays on screen until replaced by new data
That assumes the receiver can differentiate good data from corrupted or missing data. Im not convinced it can. Also, you could only do that after you received/processed the entire frame, so I imagine it would add non trivial latency. If it is possible it would be nice to have the option, but Id probably keep it turned off if it adds a single frame of latency. Im more interested if it would be possible to have frame per frame compression (mjpeg style). That would have its downsides for sure, might also increase latency, create weird artifacts, but the decreased bandwidth requirements might provide significantly better range. That would be an option I might be interested in in some situations
@@vertigo2893 it can differentiate good from bad data. Cyclic Redundancy Check and Error Correction algos are a thing. But it won't retransmit. I guess if hdz could double the latency by sending the same data twice, but it's not clear that would also double the range.
Doing that could be nice if you just want better image quality, but it would probably increase latency though.
@@destroyer-of-disks hd0 image quality is already very good I think. Penetration not that much. For some type of flights I would enjoy a more latent link mode in exchange of the extra penetration. But maybe that's not possible, just speculating.
I have v2 and v3 vtx's. Also have several runcams including the 90fps. My best penetration has been with circular polarized antennas on both ends. I also have flat panels designed for RHCP antennas. At 200mw I'm more worried about losing control surfaces before I'm out of clean video range. Weaving trees is no issue ....
Please explain the last part of your sentence. "To achieve that optimal experience, I recommend utilizing the Micro V3 and the Freestyle VTX V2. It's worth noting that the original Freestyle VTX is not compatible with any builds. "Not compatible with any builds"? Thanks
Yeah, it’s gigantic, discontinued and doesn’t fit in most frames
Okay now I understand. Yes I have 4 of the version 1 Freestyle VTXs in Quads and one still in the box. Picked up 4 of the V2 Kits on Black Friday Sale and just received 4 of the new V3 Micro cameras.@@DarrenAllatt
@@DarrenAllatt I've got it in my 5 inch tbs source one v3 and my 7inch v3...it fits sticks out a teeny bit but i freestyle with it bando bash and I'm fine....
@@DarrenAllatt I've got one fit into an Armattan Beaver in it's double 30x30 stack config and it works pretty well.
i put a runcam eagle lens on a V2 and it looks great with 1080p 30 f
I enjoy the comparison to other HD systems. However, I am at the point of gearing up for FPV and really need some comparison advice. High-end analog or HDZero... ??
I need a system that is really stable and as clear as possible to 250 feet. That's all. But that does include working around a house. I have a 200mW all-in-one unit and Emax 800D goggles. I also have a 1200line camera and a VTX that goes to a watt. I'm ready to upgrade. Pricing HDZero looks like around 450 for everything if I go Emax HD box Transporters and a Nano V3 Lite camera and VTX. Must have light weight.
Considering my modest needs, I wonder if the investment in HDZero is really worth it. 450 buys some fine analog stuff...
BTW... I have no interest in posting video... just flying. 720p30 is fine. Kinda need box goggles, too.
Opinions?
I would not bother with analog unless you already have goggles for it, all HD systems are just going to get better and slightly cheaper over time so you'll end up there anyway so might as well start with it
I would buy HDZ Goggles with the Analog module adapter, then you can use HD-Zero, Analog and Walksnail.
Why do you need boxed goggles (and not adjustable diopter) ? Anyway i see some mixed reports on the transporter HD. Apparently it overheats and starts stuttering. Not sure if that is a universal problem or if it has been fixed, but be on the lookout for that, you dont want that to happen. In your shoes, I would either go for the "real" hdzero goggle if you can afford it, or get a (used?) analog goggle with a good module. Something like a TBS fusion really makes a lot of difference im both range and image quality and high quality analog really isnt half bad. I still use it a lot despite also having HDZ and walksnail.
I switched from WS V1 back to Analog. I was so disappointed by the light handling of the WS. I offen fly against the sun an can not see what is under the trees in the shadow. With the Ratel2 this is no problem but I gave up on rhe WS. Am I to stupid to find the correct settings on the WS? Is HDZ better in the light handlinf / WDR?
What I understand from this, is that 1080p30 stutering is still present, so 1080p30 is still a no go. Thanks
No, That’s not correct - it’s some cameras are outside of the tolerance to the LPP code, so that needs to be relaxed in the goggles.
@@DarrenAllatt is there a fixed firmware available?
@@cedricgrandseigne they only detected the issue last week, and it’s Christmas.. so give them time. Doesn’t affect all cameras.
@@DarrenAllatt so that"s what I said,1080p30 is still a no go. Thanks again.
1080p30 has been out for a year now, reviews were praising it, but the reality is that it stuters. I've been very patient, but My rigs will move to Walksnail 1080p100 which seems to have the same latency, but with actual fluidity, and probably better image.
@@cedricgrandseigne 1080p30 hasn’t been out for a year… it’s been in beta for a year. The first native 1080p camera has been out for two weeks, and the issue was discovered a week ago and only effects some of the micro v3 cameras. It sounds like you just need an excuse to justify a decision
Man, this is rubbish. I don’t see those little people icons appear anywhere in my goggles....
😂
I've never tried HDzero... Of course, I like 'wire speed' methodolgy that hdz uses - kind of like redbook CD... but it just looks so shitty, by comparison. I suppose if I were flying "bando" or something, I might prefer it... Oh, I guess that I'll have to try it someday
It doesnt look as good as WS or DJI (if those have a good signal), but it also doesnt look all that shitty live. What you are seeing is the original uncompressed signal, encoded by the DVR, re-encoded by video editing and re-encoded by youtube. Before you say thats true for all systems, other digital systems transmit h265, the goggles dont need to encode it, just save it. And other systems dont have random noise, you cant compress random and that makes it much harder to re-encode sunch video at low bitrates. Analog has the same problem, DVRs and youtube look a lot worse than the original feed. Watch some raw DVR at least to judge it on. I expected to hate HDZ breakup, but in reality, the noise looks like snow on an otherwise perfectly crisp and sharp image. I find it easy to ignore and easier to deal with than analog breakup (which often distorts the entire image) or the pixelation and stuttering of walksnail. YMMV.
@@vertigo2893 Interesting point. I'll keep that in mind.
If you get a chance to fly it before you buy it, I want to suggest flying the Nano90 Cam.
I started with DJI, and still fly it when I want to record a perfect sunrise, and not have to carry a payload camera. Or, since DJI gets better penetration, I like to use it to do my scouting. But after sitting behind the 540@90, that HDZero's Nano90 does, I tend to fly HDZero most of the time. The best way to describe the feeling, would be to say that it felt like I was sitting right behind the camera's glass. But those words would not have meant much to me, before I experienced it. After a few weeks, maybe a few days, of flying it, my mind stopped reacting to the rainbow sparkles, as if they are in my way. I just kind of see through them, if that makes sense. Now that I'm used to the sparkles, my brain perceives them like a visual beeper. They tell me that the video signal became weaker, and that information loops back into my sticks.
I hope I communicated a clear enough picture of my own experience, that you might have an easier time deciding what's right for you. Happy flying.
You seem to forget not everyone flies quads. Latency of a few dozen milliseconds isn’t even noticeable on fixed wing. The constant interference of HDZero is though.
You seem to not realise that I’m a Quad Channel and not a fixed wing channel
@@DarrenAllatt I roflcopter'd so hard
Wtf, why the music is so loud? Whats wrong with you FPV people.