A Bad Time To Be a Young Enthusiast - Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 127
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2024
- Derek feels like young enthusiasts have gotten screwed in multiple ways - there are no affordable collectible cars anymore and there are no modern cars that are fun and affordable. Plus, with increased cost of living and sky-high student debt, young people have no chance of owning anything great.
Jason fully disagrees.
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This is a rare instance where Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott disagree. Jason feels like Derek (who's ironically more than a decade younger) doesn't understand young people: the cars that appeal to Derek (and older buyers) just don't appeal to younger buyers. And the cars that do appeal to young people are too new for Derek to care about them - but they do exist!
What follows is intelligent conversation about getting older, whether cars are actually getting better, whether there are any interesting post-2000 or post-2010 cars - and whether Derek is just too old to understand.
Plus, Jason shows Derek his opulent, ridiculous, and over-the-top new garage decor, talks about his 2020-part-4 surprise Covid, and Derek talks about his new car-sales business: OTS & Company.
Or, OT Sand Co., dot com.
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The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network. 
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As a young enthusiast I’ve pretty much resigned myself to living vicariously through RUclipsrs because there’s no way I’ll ever be able to even touch the cars I like in my lifetime
as an almost middle aged enthusiast in not such a western country, I have the exact same problem. Beyond second hand hot hatchbacks, everything is out of range.
Thankfully I do like R230 SL's and cars of similiar vintage, as they are easily available. Sucks to be you :)
@@eugenux I'm enjoying my Sentras and Cobalt SS as a young broke car guy lol. A turbo Cobalt SS on Eibach suspension and sway bars is very enjoyable as is and was fairly cheap
As a broke guy from the 90's let me tell you the most fun I've ever had is when Ford Fiestas were 500$ used. You can do anything to one and throw it out. At 10/10ths the cars is insane, horrible and completely enjoyable experience. These $25o,ooo cars you can only get to 2/10th before jail time. Some things are great for lap times, Some are just pretty, but the ugly trash car iss great for what it is, cheap fun!
@@jacobwebb8818ya but I’m sure those still got more than two owners and more than 150k miles
I'm 29 min in. Jason is right about $15k being around $25 (it's actually $22k) but he is missing the key part, wages haven't increased with prices so buying power is overall less and therefore the $25k car, is less accessible now than the $15k car in 2007
lol he literally made this exact point in an icons (I think?) video, and now just wants to forget his own argument for some (possibly politically motivated) reason.
Standing up for the little guy doesn't do you any favors when there are Cybertrucks to get access to.
Right, and that one point single-handedly destroys his entire argument.
He mentioned his purchase of the 3 series wagon in euros, but never mentioned what it cost him to bring it to the US. He most likely paid more to ship it than purchase it. At the end of the day (with inflation) the average young enthusiast isn't making 6 figures for a Porsche, and honestly they are looking for settling the rest of their life (house, et al).
@@iamsuperflushlol 😂
yup missing the biggest point of the whole argument, those "kids" are still shopping in the sub-$15k range
Being a zoomer car enthusiast who watched literally every “affordable” fun car I aspired after become completely unattainable is basically the worst possible timeline.
Find a new one golf gti's are cheap,sn95 or s197 stangs, despite a bad reputation g35 platforms, e46 and e92 platforms... there is plenty
@@TwoDollarGarargeonly the e92, would not have many owners and be utterly raggedy out of all those cars
@@benjaminwatson7868 yeah you may have to do some unclapping that's the fate of a cheap enthusiast car always been that way
@@benjaminwatson7868 try finding a clean GT-86 lol there 10 years old there all destroyed already lol
@@TwoDollarGarargethats the problem most people arent mechanically inclined and cars are becoming less easy to work on yourself for a myriad of reasons, i can do this build thing because im engine swapping a 60s car try doing that with a wrx from 2010 really
I make $104k (27 y/o). 10 years ago you would think I could have any Mustang I wanted. Well, sit down, run the math, and it’s pretty irresponsible for me to buy a lightly used GT350, let alone a new Dark Horse. Again - the middle class is going away. There are cars for the ultra rich and the GR86 for the rest of us.
Which is funny because that’s 50 grand for a new one in Europe and honestly fuck that. They know where they can park that compared to a lightly used Mach 1 imo
Well not just for the ultra rich... as you said, for the irresponsible. These manufacturers and dealers know that there are irresponsible middle class people who will go buy that dark horse when its a terrible idea. There arent enough rich people to move the volume they want.
Almost the same salary as you. I rent in the suburbs or a medium-sized city in NC and the only way I can afford a discretionary fun car is to cut my retirement savings considerably or stick to the
@@richardwakefield5902 Counter: look at Ferrari, Lambo, and P car production numbers since 2000. The choices of $200,000+ cars has exploded. Sure, even some of the high earners are over leveraging themselves into a Huracan but still, the lack of affordable fun sucks. Why is Miata $30k!?
@@casperLikesRamen I compromised on a well kept 996. I missed money I could have put in the S&P but…I will only be in my 20s with a P car once. What’s the point of life is you always wait to enjoy it?
Note to self: Ask Jason for a $1000
Definitely on Derek's side with this one. Jason seems to be a little money blind in terms of economy "My Pittsburgh house which was 77k should not be worth probably about 100-120k but 200k is fine now"
Derek is stick out for the lower and middle class on this one considering he mentions cost of living outside of cars. Yes, car prices aren't exactly RiDiCuLoUs right now, but they're not cheao either. If you consider that wages have nearly stagnated, and bills and necessities are only increasing in price, it's becoming hard to justify spending more for a car than you would have just 2 or 3 years ago when it was much cheaper (e.g. an EG Civic is now around like 6-8k depending on condition for like a 2,000 car).
It would be hard justifying buying a pleasure car that isnt just for getting around when bills and necessities are swallowing people whole
1:03:45 this is the most boomer statement I've heard from Jason. As a long time fan, this video hurt. I'm definitely lower class and I enjoy my fun cheap FWD cars, but I am struggling to even get a decent daily as it is. I'm 22 years old and making 40-45k a year which is actually decent for my age, education and area, and yet cars around me in North Georgia are ridiculously priced
@@jacobwebb8818He also seems to not think about how he was given a car for free…one of the more expensive purchases a young enthusiast will make. That purchase alone can help one save a lot more than someone who has to shell out their own cash for a vehicle.
"At 22, I bought a house and a Mercedes", my ass. I know zero 22 year-olds who own a a crummy apartment, let alone a freakin' HOUSE; many own a crappy VW or Ford, not a Mercedes.
@@andycalifornia426 I believe it. Jason traveled a lot when he was younger. Pretty sure he lived in Germany for 3 or 4 years as well as Pittsburgh and I think New York. Safe to say, the family probably had connections
@@jacobwebb8818 I believe him too :). I just don't believe that's representative of a situation of an average 22-year-old - neither now, nor 20 years ago :)
Camissa is WAY off base here...As someone who owns/collects, repairs and restores collector/classic cars let me tell you how it really is. I do NOT make six figures, i do have a mortgage, i do have kids, and derek is correct the cost of living currently is absurd. I say that to say this, people like me with skyrocketing bills and a passion for cars are in a place right now where if you cant fix it yourself it simply isnt an option. This eliminates a ton of european cars because of parts prices, it also eliminates anything after 1980. Because i dont know about you but i cant make a powertrain control module in my garage. MANY car enthusiasts recognize this. Jason is also WAY off about what young people consider a classic car. They have the same definition as we do, pre-1980. Furthermore a 10 year old car is not ancient Jason, its just a used car. Heres the truth none of the current automotive programs want to tell you, after 10 years manufacturers are no longer required to provide any parts for any models. If you buy a modern car and the pcm/ecm or bcm goes out you are stuck buying a used or rebuilt one at whatever price the aftermarket desires, provided you are able to diagnose such a problem in your garage. Fun/cool cars that you can fix yourself have been priced out of reach for young enthusiats, Derik is correct.
some opinions of Jason make me dislike him sometimes, he's a bit out of touch
Definitely. 10 year old cars are the average not a luxury
Derek is older and wiser. Looks great for an 85-year-old!
there is a group of younger people into pre 1983 cars but there smaller than the people into the cars after that. I know i'm friends with one and he makes or find's and rebuilds what he needs that being said I know way more car guys younger than 35 into post 1991 cars
Nonsense 😂
Jason: “The E90 is old”
Derek: “I’m f-king old!!”
This episode was pure comedy and also so relatable. 😂
I completely agree with Derek. Literally every mainstream manufacturer had at least 3-4 interesting sporty cheap cars in their lineup in the 90s. These were available used in the years that followed and made it easy for young people to get into the hobby. Now if you're young and want something slightly dynamically interesting, you're looking battling over the handful of decent manual G35s/G37s left for $10k. It's terrible. I think the hobby would be much, much bigger if manufacturers were allowed to build interesting cheap sporty cars, like it was 20 years ago. Unfortunately they aren't with the way the regulations are. Cars used to be a big part of the culture and that has disappeared, because they're uninteresting now.
I think saying regulations make it impossible is a cop out. If Mazda/Toyota can figure out how to produce affordable low volume cars like the Miata/86 on bespoke platforms, there is zero reason GM, kings of parts bin special, can’t.
I grew up a GM fanboy, and right now there is nothing under 60k I’m even remotely interested in buying.
These companies are prioritizing margin. This is not “we can’t do it,” it’s “we could make this other thing and charge more for it.” Which is fine! But don’t give me crap and tell me it’s chocolate.
You are correct sir. Working on cars professionally for 23 years now. Cars are absolute cheap garbage now. Share holders and profit margins rule all. A lot of people have forgotten about a solstice or sky redline or how cheap a used camaro used to be.@@bigjaydogg3384
@@bigjaydogg3384 ' This is not “we can’t do it,” it’s “we could make this other thing and charge more for it.” '
PRECISELY. Like all corporations, the priority is shareholder value. Visit any parking lot in America, and notice it is PACKED with mind-numbing dull, gray, heavy crossovers. The bulk of the buying public does not want fun, interesting, dynamic, or exciting. They want boring child-moving color-less appliances, and that's what most of the auto makers are building.
@@ateamfan42 How do we know that people wouldn't buy fun and interesting cars? I think you guys are underestimating how much of the car the regulations affect. It influences everything from the engines to the height of the hoodline. Low slung front engine cars are illegal for manufacturers to sell now.
@@verdict1163 how do we know? Simply compare sales figures of the few sports cars still on the market to the MASSIVE crossover/suv market.
The driving enthusiast market is a tiny fraction of the car buying pubic
tough luck for future car buyers: your EV battery is out of warranty, and the manufacturer doesn't make compatible replacements; our fast charger network has detected that the replacement working battery from a salvage vehicle has been in an accident, and "for your safety" we will not allow it but if you want to risk it, you can still slowly L1/L2 charge it at the home that you can't afford to buy; the vehicle operation depends on out-of-date electronics that (even if it happens to still work) requires both a cell network that got turned off years ago and obsolete cloud services that were taken off line "for your security" due to vulnerabilities
I'm a 28 year old engineer, and I live in Arkansas. I more agree with Derek on this than Jason. For one, cost of living is getting ridiculous even here. I can't afford the house my parents bought when they were around my age and making notably less than I am even adjusted for inflation. Owning a decent house in a good neighborhood and a good enthusiast car is out of the question for me right now. ATM I am renting an apartment and driving a pretty ragged-out E36 325is that I got for $3500, which I do love but which is not a "nice" car really. I think though that I am on the edge of the tail end of the golden age. A raise or two and me finishing off paying my loans in the next few years might mean I can afford something like a 987.2 Cayman S. We will see how that goes. I think things are worst now than they were 10 or 20 years ago, but I think they're still better than they were like 40 years ago when selection of good enthusiast cars was way lower and when most affordable cars didn't drive nearly as well as 80s-2000s stuff. The golden age was an extremely short spike in human history that it is a pleasure to live even this close to. It seems like it'll only get worse from here as everything gets electrified.
Also, I think now that most younger people consider a car to be "modern" if it was launched in a time they can remember. For me, that's about 2005 and up. An E90 is modern to me, an E46 is not. That said, I wouldn't call an E46 "old." I think young people generally have a longer time window for cars they consider recent than previous generations. This is because there is a longer automotive history to look back on now. 10 years is a significantly lower percentage of automotive history these days than it was 30 or 40 years ago, so a 10 year old car doesn't seem as old as one did then.
Also, I do feel the peak that you guys are talking about, but I and most others who follow this podcast may be outliers in the young enthusiast community. I would be curious how many people under 25 know/care about EPAS vs hydraulic and stuff like that. I do, but I would bet most young enthusiasts don't care about that stuff enough to only seek out older cars.
To your point about youngins not knowing/caring about the difference between EPAS and hydro power steering, as a 20 year old enthusiast, out of all of my enthusiast buddies, I’m an anomaly actually caring about these things and the implications of how different they make a car feel. I’m unsure of if this has always been the case, but it seems that almost all young enthusiasts care simply about what’s fastest and most powerful out of the box, as well as, unfortunately, the flashiest. None of my peers seem to give a rat’s ass about driving a car as a visceral experience, and it’s deeply saddening.
Interesting. I’m guessing like me that you’re in your late 20s to very early 30s at the most because I’d also consider an e90 to be modern and e42 to not be
@@trevorhsu6357 I agree completely. E90 is available with Idrive, valvetronic engines, and bluetooth phone. I consider the presence of infotainment as the dividing line between modern and old, but that's just my personal standard.
@@butterfingers9151 I don't think things have changed much. I'm 36 and came up around Skylines, GD WRXs, Cobalt SSs, S550 Mustangs, 350Zs, etc. So, 90s and early '00s era cars. This was in the prairies, so lots of straight roads. Most of my buddies in the car clubs back then didn't give a shit about steering feel, handling balance etc. Mostly they were interested in how the car looked, sounded and how fast it felt in a straight line. Maybe if you came up driving B roads in England or carving canyons in Cali things would be different.
Also, I moved from an E36 328is with full Dinan bolt ons (it was really sweet) to an E90 two years ago (330i 6MT). The E90 is very much a modern car and probably the best daily driver imaginable. The only downside is the fuel economy and service costs. The E36 is also pretty modern IMO. The ergonomics are very similar to recent cars and the driving experience is more analog, but moving from an E90 or F30 to an E36 is pretty seamless. Going back to something from the 60/70s on the other hand is VERY different. The driving positions were way different, the HVAC and stereo is horrendous, there might be a choke to start the engine and the whole car smells like gas. That is the big differentiator between 'modern' and 'old/vintage'.
I fully agree with your last two paragraphs.
I‘m 25 years old and also an engineer/outlier who cares about stuff in cars almost nobody else cares about. My first two cars were a 95 W202 and then a 92 W124. So I absolutely do not think about an E90 as an old car.
Even though I also agree more with Derek on this one, I still think there are some good deals for people like me every now and then if you look very closely at the market. For example, I think of my clean E90 325i manual that I got for an unbelievably cheap 2800€ 7 months ago as a far better deal then any F30 I could have gotten for a lot more money. But maybe that’s also because I don’t care too much about stuff like screens or Apple Carplay. I was thrilled when I found out that this E90 has electric powered seats and auto lights/wipers… That was something unheard of for me coming from the two Benzes😅 So as an enthusiast like we probably all are, that E90 was a very good deal.
100% agree with Derek. He knows the struggle because he's one of us (age wise). I think every young car enthusiast knows where he's coming from with his argument - sorry Jason. And I also don't think any Gen Z car enthusiast buying an F30 is doing so because they view them as classics...
I do support Derek’s opinion. Yes 2000€ in 2002 might be equal to 3300€ today but wages and salaries didnt get the same treatement and stayed almost the same, not the case of bills or the cost of living in general. Prices have doubled, not our paycheck at the end of the month.
Plus, living in Europe means that living in a Capital / Big City with anything else than a electric car is impossible unless you are willing to pay some serious premium PER DAY.
I could list of 20 things Europe does better than America but it is definitely way better to be a car guy here.
@@garythecyclingnerd6219 Real
Yeah, in Europe, my main concern is not whether I can afford to BUY a cool car (and I'm talking about something with 6 or more cylinders), but for how long I will be able to afford to own and use it.
If you must be a car enthusiast in Europe, live in Sweden.
@@fortheloveofnoise9298why? Could you explain please?
As a young enthusiast, yeah things suck (sometimes), but at least we’ve got people like you guys supporting/guiding us. I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned and grown as an enthusiast from watching your content. Joking and rants aside you two have broadened my understanding and opened my eyes in a way nobody else in the automotive sphere have. So thank you both for that. I never would have bought my shitbox Integra GSR had it not been for you, because until I started watching I was still in the “ew FWD” mindset but instead I’m completely head over heels with it (even though it’s currently broken and I can’t afford to fix it 😂).
Broken cars are the sign of character! Bravo, congratulations - and thank you!
You know I read somewhere a rational comment that there really isn’t any worthwhile enthusiast cars in a affordable price range; no new ones, no older ones, and barely any classics, I mean a s197 should be, next to the sn95, the most affordable sports car right just based on pure numbers of them
@@JasonCammisa Thanks, I totally agree! And you’re very welcome, I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t think it was true! You guys genuinely give me hope for a better future for car enthusiasts…
@@benjaminwatson7868 I’d say there are still deals to be found, but you have to be patient and willing to make certain sacrifices. I initially wanted to get RWD car, but after watching Jason and Derek, listening to them discuss FWD cars I realized that maybe I’d be ok with a car that was FWD. So when the opportunity to buy my GSR came up for 3k I pounced… It hasn’t necessarily worked out the way I wanted (still needs alot of work) but now I have something to work on and learn on because I was willing to make some concessions.
I'm an early millennial (41) and I finally became able to buy my dream car. But the only reason I can is because I have no wife or kids. So I now have a $150k car in the garage of my one-bedroom apartment.
Fully agree with Derek. We're in a relatively high earning household, but we live in an expensive coastal city. There weren't a lot of options for us that was practical and reliable, yet still fun. We ended up on a Mazda 3 with a stick, and can't really see being able to get anything nicer or getting a second fun car. Even a parking spot is comically expensive where I live.
The gen4 3 manual is super nice, though, so you did ok! More fun than the Turbo imo.
I got a 2017 Mazda 3 with a 6 speed and yeah it’s been a pretty fun car , definitely trying to save up for a second “fun” car now but it’s definitely hard
I'm 33 and I remember watching all the fun cars skyrocket in value. I used to go on TheSamba VW/Porsche forum and look at old air cooled 911s for less than 10k. Every fun enthusiast car I wanted is well beyond my reach now. I hope, maybe, I can get a nice Miata or something some day... yaaay...
I live in Mexico. At my age my father had paid for 2 homes (with no collage degree), had owned multiple new cars, restored his 1969 Ford pick-up, paid for my college education, all while being the sole bred winner of the home stead. My brother and I on the other hand are both Mechanical engineers and had to pull together our incomes to purchase an apartment 1/20th the size of the house I grew up in and we both drive shit boxes. Owning a new car is a laughable prospect, we can make the payments, but it would take out an inadvisably significant chunk out of our income. I know people w college educations who lived with their parents until their lait 30s.
It's tough out here bro. Just know it's hardly better in the US. If I hadn't paid off my BRZ before buying my house, I wouldn't have qualified for the home loan. And I STILL need a roommate to make the mortgage payment affordable. My parents each bought their first house (separately, before they knew each other) when they were 6-12 years younger than I was, and they didn't need or want roommates. Very different times.
Who buys new cars?
@@bentucker2301 If no one bought new cars there'd be no used cars on the market. Please, don't bring the stupid.
Now we REALLY need that spreadsheet video on this specific topic - would be epic!
Parameters could be as follows:
- 2000-2014 model years only (can be a 90s car coming into the 2000s)
- has to be available today for less than $35k (that is
I hope so too this sounds like fun
G35/G37, 350z/370z, FRS/BRZ, any Miata, Mazdaspeed 3, GTIs, Golf R, IS350, ISF, any Mini, Volvo C30, S60/V60 Polestar, Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Focus RS, most V8 mustangs (stretch for a PP2), most V8 Camaros (stretch for a 1LE), C5, most C6, E46 non M, E39 non M, E92 non M, 1 Series non M, 2 Series Non M, SLK55, CLK55, Pontiac G8, Z4 non M, Z3, TT/TTS, S3, S4, most WRX/STIs, most EVOs, W211 E55, all civic Si, S2000, Honda Fit (i think they're cool), Acura RSX, TL, TLX, 986, 987.1, 996, Corolla/Matrix XRS, Veloster Turbo, Veloster N, Elantra N, Accord V6 manual coupe,
Stretch
W211 E63, W204 C63, RS4, RS5, E92 M3, E39 M5, Elise, Civic Type R, ATS-V
Probably missing a couple but that's what i have come up with (excluding trucks and SUVs). Completely arbitrary on what i qualify as an enthusiast car.
I wouldn’t mind another episode but with more upfront research that might support each position.
Agreed. I think this needs more fleshing out...
As a 23 year old enthusiast located in the Philippines, where the average monthly wage is $600, it's hard to be a young car enthusiast. Personally, I've developed a fascination for BMWs and am fortunate enough to own a 2001 E46 325i (gifted by my father). Starting as a young professional, I knew it would be a wrong move to get something that is not "economical" but it was just a deal you can't give up. So, trying to maintain and use an old BMW or any car for that matter here is a bit of stretch, without external help such as not having to pay rent. Watching RUclips contents like these are the good alternatives to somewhat get a glimpse of the experiences of driving a myriad of exciting cars.
Jason is SOOOOO clueless about what everyone that doesnt live on the east or west coast (80% of us) or in the middle class (80% of us) can afford. Groceries have literally doubled in price in 3 years, everything else is 30-50% higher than 3-4 years ago. Housing prices have doubled. Must be nice to be clueless about how much things cost for the majority of the population...
Because he lives alone with 13 cars in Mediterranean weather climate zone why leave
80% are middle class?
@@bentucker2301 depends on how middle class is defined. 80% of us are between poverty and wealth.
I think it's even bigger than enthusiast cars - I think young people have less buying power than ever before. Market conditions are very hostile towards young people. I'm fortunate enough to be debtless/educated/high earning/low expenses/young/no dependents, and I am still finding the climb into net worth growth extremely limiting on my ability to pursue my passions or hobbies.
I'm not just watching my dream cars slip away, I'm watching the doors close on lifestyles I've never had a chance to experience because the market isn't interested in keeping those paths open for me. I'm going to keep fighting, but it's not lost on me that this uphill battle keeps getting steeper.
I feel that as a 23yo student from Poland. Here the minimal hourly wage this year is 27.70PLN. If i were to consider a GR86 for example - a car that should be one of the affordable new sports cars - I can expect a price around 200K PLN. (Other cars like golfs, civic type r are actually much more expensive). Divide one by the other and we get a bit more than 7220 hours of work besides taxes, other expenditure. I really hate the way the market is going and it makes me sad knowing i will probably miss the best times to be a ICE enthusiast.
Sorry, but no one at any point in the history of automotive fandom was buying a new car on minimum wage...so the point is mute...the minimum wage worker is not the target audience for any new car sales... unfortunately they like many others (including myself) have to buy used
@@triaxe-mmb Valid point. Understandably, minimum wage workers cannot really afford luxury goods like a fun car. The funds need to go elsewhere.
I added minimal wage, because this is the ballpark of what a student would make either way. Until you are more qualified, finding a more paying part-time work is challenging.
That's the thing that ties back into the topic of this conversation - It's hard to be a young car enthusiast these days. Young people don't make enough money, so they will have to learn, get more paid jobs, invest in their career and time comes where a dream about having a cool car has to be erased because you need to start investing in a family first.
Another interesting thought - I think it is safe to say most of the new cars are being leased. Most people can't afford to pay up front the gigantic sums of money, but they still got the cars because of low interest rates in recent years. Car dealers weren't stupid and kept increasing the prices of the cars because they kept selling. This is what i think had one of the biggest effects on the car price inflation. It really doesn't bode well if you don't want to conform to that system.
There are currently works on implementing Clean Air Zones in the cities in EU. They are meant to take older cars with older emmision standards from the roads. Turns out, I won't be able to drive a family owned 15y/o Mitsubishi Outlander in about 3 more years (I like this car because it's spacious and has a manual) in my city, even though it holds much better than the cars it's age. So the new cars are too expensive to get, and old cars will be soon banned from the roads.
Thankfully i bought a KTM Duke 125 a year ago as a means to drive a motorbike while waiting until 24y/o to get a full A (unrestricted motorbike) license. I think bikes are one of the last things that can scratch that itch for owning a machine you can be enthusiastic about at young age!
@@kjyu Most new cars are bought with “financing”, even by people with really good salaries. So they pay the bank maybe €500/month for a new Volvo or €2K/month for some new Porsche. In a way, you’re renting the car from the bank. If you stop paying them, they take the car away ofc. It’s similar with real estate and boats.
Jason jest trochę odklejony nawet jak na amerykańskie standardy, ale u nas są jeszcze gorsze warunki by interesować się motoryzacją wynikające z małej dostępności interesujących starszych aut sportowych (następstwa komuny), a nawet jeśli pojawi się argument ściągania auta nawet z Niemiec to trzeba się liczyć że mamy złotówki, a oni euro przez co płacimy około 4razy więcej.
Na przykład zainteresowałem się jakie są ceny Hondy Beat u nas. W Polsce nie znalazłem a na niemieckiej stronie znalazlem za 8 tys. Euro co w przeliczeniu dało około 40 pare tys. Zł. Auto które tam może jest dość tanie u nas staje się dość wymagającym zakupem.
@@sebastianmandrean But if you don't stop paying, you eventually own it, don't you?
As a young enthusiast I side with Derek when it comes to the idea that our generation has it hard. However one thing that I don’t see being mentioned is how will the generation after us be enthusiastic about turbo four suvs and crossovers. I believe that is when traditional enthusiasts will dwindle there will be an emergence of mainstream off road culture as suvs are more fun off road.
I said this before but motorcycles are gunna be the only thing that lasts, as enthusiast vehicles
@@benjaminwatson7868 the first and last
That, and EVs.
I think it's the other way around, I think most people grow to loathe the cars they were hauled around in as kids to a degree.
As many others have said i feel as though Jason is really out of touch in this one. I'm 22 years old, I'd rather my legs cut off than have an f30, but it's not even feasible for me to afford either. The cars most of the other young enthusiasts i am around lust after are japanese and from the 1990s regardless of the fact that we weren't even alive when those cars were new. As for myself i've always been a bit of an outlier, my dad is a career bodyman who was always into muscle cars (Aussie and American) so as a child all that mattered were cars from the 70s and earlier but that all started to change around junior high when i started consuming auto media of my choosing. Those first few years of motortrends video content was extremely influential to me, especially jasons shows. I still credit his original e30 video for my obsession with euro cars. But like others have mentioned the jump in cost of living while wages stagnate has really fucked young enthusiasts, here in Canada just groceries have gone up 30+% over the last 3 years maybe all that time in the bay area has made everything being super expensive seem normal 😂
Jason is absolutely out of touch. he has a cushy job and lives in a nice neighborhood in the bay area of Norcal. He absolutely does not understand how regular young people live now.
I am way more like Derek than I am like jason. I think Jason is just an overwhelmingly Rose colored bespectacled optimist.
I feel really fortunate that unlike the young people today, I was able to buy the 1968 Volvo 1800 s for my first car, a car that was 5 years older than myself.
It seems to happen to even well intentioned people, but they really just don’t believe us younger people when we say the market is borked.
Went to see the Ferrari movie this weekend and on the big screen was Jason camisa advertising for Hagerdy. You look great on the big screen Jason.
Woo woo, thank you!
Wow, the big time. Jason is now the inflation-adjusted discount Adam Sandler. 😁
Hey jason. I have to say you cant be any more wrong about car prices to young enthusiasts today. Ive been browsing sites like craigslist since 2013. In 2013 as a young car enthusiast you could get a ten year old mustang gt (03 with about 80k miles) for about $4k to $6k around where i live (metro detroit). Now today in the present year a ten year old mustang (14 with the 5.0 and 80k miles) is $18k for a basic, teenager owned example. Im not sure if you are aware of how much weve actually inflated, but it is not 3x what it was in 2013.
My wife and I have an FR-S and BRZ that we daily and take to the track. With grad school loans and other expenses, we’re really happy with these cars as they are fun, practical and relatively cheap to maintain.
Cars like the now extinct STI, the new GR Corolla and Civic Type R are cars that we want and could buy.. but, out the door they’re more than $45k. Listening to your many podcasts made me realize that maybe we can have fun, older cars without having to spend so much.
And most importantly, we remind ourselves that even though the 86/BRZ are relatively slow and common, they truly are fun cars and we need to be content with what we have. Maybe we won’t actually enjoy those modern hot hatches any more?
Hatchbacks are practical first, fun second.
Sport Coupés like the 86 are fun first, practical second.
Really depends on your day to day life and activities. Hard to drive a growing family around in a 2+2 seater or haul a big home depot run with it. But if you don't wanna make those turns in life, what's wrong with keeping the cars? :)
@@Forke13 ideally we’d like a couple fun daily drivers and keep the 86s for increasing track use. I agree with you, the hatchback options would be perfect for everyday use, I’m just sad the really fun ones are a tad out of reach for now.
@@Luckeysharms I'm assuming you are located in the states?
Really a shame, that you don't have small cars like VW Polo, Seat Ibiza or Toyota Yaris over there :/
Small Turbo engines with great tuning potential if you're into that. I love the late 2012-2017 Polo GTI. Successors are also nice but don't come with a manual. That's what I'm turning in for my new GR86 next week.
Doesn't help you though. What about a last gen hatchback one step down from the sports variant with a turbo engine and an ECU Tune? Should give you at least 20% more power. And if you keep the 86s, you dont need the sporty suspension for the track
I think the topic of affordability among young enthusiasts might as well be a multi part series since there are so many factors and each one could take up an episode in of themselves 😂😂
As someone looking at 996s, a $15-20k 996 is going to cost you $10k in deferred maint costs or is going to be a tip cab. Like, a 100k+ mile example in decent condition is going to be $25k+. Anything else is just a BHPH timebomb.
Accurate. A good manual C2 with good history and less than 60k miles is going to be in the 30-35k range. And will still cost you 3-5k in maintenance depending how meticulous you are. Tires alone are north of $1000. Source: bought one last year.
That explains why I can't find any of those 20k 996s JC and DTS keep mentioning whenever I look for one.
Kicking myself for not buying a 996, even a 997, 5 years ago. Instead, spending on an NA Miata to make nice and track-capable...
@@pdcichosz they are out there if you are patient, but it will be higher mileage cars with less than desirable ownership history. Given how 996s can go catastrophically wrong (overblown by the internet or not) and how expensive they are to fix, there is a very wide range between just ok cars and creampuffs. I think they are still a good value if you are comfortable with the maintenance. 997.1s have all of the same exact mechanical faults as a 996 and are worth $20k more. That’s a big premium to pay for round headlights.
@@gonfern1987 including IMS? Wow, I didn't know that. I'm a 90s kid so I'm actually more fond of the 996, always have been, and I hate the silver plastic fad of late noughties 997 was susceptible to so no round headlights aren't a problem. The problem is I can't find one in the middle ground between overpriced garage queens and those shady ones you mentioned.
Happy New Year, guys!
As a 24 year old enthusiast that adores older BMWs (pre-F generation), I cannot stand the F30. I had one very briefly (a 12’ 328i manual), and got rid of it for an E90 330i 6 speed because I couldn’t stand how miserable the steering, ride/handling balance, buzzy impending timing chain failure on that N20, and build quality was on that car.
For me, it’s sad that my favorite cars are getting OLD. I was in high school when I drove my first BMW (an auto E39 525i and fell in love).
I would never get an F30, F10, F01. I would love an E39, E60, E65, E38, or another E90. A G80 M3 is not affordable whatsoever, and the only modern M that’s affordable and interesting to me would be the F87 M2.
I just wish BMW would go back to their roots when it comes to driving feel. Then it would make me want to spend money on a new BMW. Luckily, my wallet is spared as a result. I spend all of my free time looking at used BMWs as a result :)))
Fully agree with all your points //22 y/o
Love that Derek is dressed like the youth, representing!
I would love if the guys actually did a live podcast to hear from younger enthusiasts!
Yes!!
I am 23. If given $75k, i would pay off my debts, then find a decent GTI, Cayman, or a nice Miata. The rest of the money would go into savings and future proofing my life for the next… i dunno, 10 years?
This is an interesting conversation you’ve went over in this episode. I have a decent job, I live in a 1 bedroom apartment in CA with my girlfriend, and I find that I’m having trouble justifying an enthusiast choice for a daily driver. Every day, I think more and more about buying or leasing to buy a new Prius and keeping it until one day I can afford to rip out all the hybrid components to put a K20 into it, HOWEVER, even the Prius isn’t cheap these days.
Being a younger enthusiast isn’t easy these days, and seeing new “cheap” enthusiast cars coming out that are in the mid to high $30k range is infuriating. Right now, even something like a GR 86 that has MSRP at $28,400 or $473 a month lease, $507 a month finance is completely unobtainable to me.
That doesn't even cover availability. Gettimg the GR86 for MSRP is a shitshow. The BRZ is easy to secure at the price, but that works if you're in a spot in life where you can be flexible the delivery date and wait 3-6 months.
Here in Norway the new GR86 is $73,000 MSRP😭
Given that I lived through the glory days of JDM, my take is that real estate inflated much more than the car market. Enthusiast vehicles had never been cheap but rent/mortgages are much more affordable. Thus, you have more spending power. When I was working in Silicon Valley 10 years ago, I couldn’t qualify for a mortgage on a 200k salary hahaha. I have friends who did pour their savings into cars and now regretted it later on in life. If I was given $75k, pay off high interest debt and invest the rest.
Invest in yourself and let your investments pay for toys. It takes a while to get there, but you'll be better off.
Age 21, dream cars at different price points:
10k - Miata in good condition (NA, NC)
30k - Mustang V8, Lotus Elise, Toyota GR86
50k - Older 911 (996 and older)
80k - Ferrari 360, V8 Vantage
80k - 100k - Porsche 997 GT3, Original Tesla Roadster
over 100k - Ferrari 458, F12 Berlinetta, 992 GT3, 911 S/T, other crazy NA sports cars
Everything 100% manual and gasoline (in germany lots of Diesel crap), daily preferably electric (Tesla M3. similar)
List not complete, just some cars of the top of my head 😅
Damn is that all for a 997 gt3?
They are around 100k in Germany, yep
As a 19y/o I agree with Derek, looking at used cars today, everything mildly interesting to me feels so unobtainable, my interest in cars ranges from post war to quite a few cars cars today (if it's interesting I'll be interested). And my tastes are not even focused on supercars or rare sports cars.
ps: don't want an f30, e90 still feels new.
I am currently 25 years old, so I am the person you are targeting for young enthusiasts. Housing is the biggest obstacle. I dont even live somewhere super expensive (I live in albuquerque new mexico) I do have a house now but I wouldn't dare take out a loan nowadays alongside it for a fun secondary car. Housing costs a third of my take home income, and that's for a 2 bed 1 bath house from the 90s. And then add all my rest of bills on top of that...
Going to what Jason said about how he thought 10 years old is an old car when he was 20, I don't really feel the same, for me a 20 year old car is old but 10 is decently recent. I do have a 1991 mr2 though (which is 7 years older than I am) that I purchased at 18.
All my discretionary purchases I make for cars are capped at below 20k for me, and more realistically around 10.
As a younger enthusiast I think the “dream car” scenario is mostly out of reach for most. However, while most collectible stuff my generation is into is too expensive, the less collectible stuff is definitely still around. The cars that they made a ton of like sn95 mustangs, miatas, is300s, etc etc are still around and not too expensive. First and second gen mr2s are great enthusiast cars with interesting layouts that are still attainable under the 10k mark
Yeah those are all good options, as well as cars that are likley not too much to service. One thing many don't realize is, a cheaper sports/exotic car may end up being more to own in the long run. For example, you could probably find a 987 Boxster for a 'reasonable' price, but it may also require >$10k to get up to spec. Thankfully, prices are starting to go down on cars like that.
@@collinhayes9509 yeah thankfully shitbox pricing on shitboxes is starting to reemerge. Tired of seeing nonrunning rust buckets posted for 10k+
Most people of any age can't buy their *dream car*. That's why it's a dream car. I am no longer young, and I finally just got myself a used Miata. And I am happy with that, because pining over a GT3 is dumb and pointless. Plus, I would never be able to maintain the cost of ownership on such a car.
Team Derek here. I'm not sure what world Jason lives in.
Your editor deserves a raise. 🤣😂
As a 24 year old Brit with a 34 year old 325i touring I’d disagree with Cammisa saying young people view 10 year old cars as old cars. Out of my friends, the only people who think a e90/f30 are old cars are the ones with zero interest in enthusiast cars. Car enthusiasts of my generation (gen z) have a huge enthusiasm for 80s and 90s cars because it’s often their first time round experiencing these cars. They didn’t consciously see them growing up so seeing them now it’s a special occasion, almost as though they’re exotic even when they’re not. As a final point I’d say 80% of people who take photos, give a thumbs up or talk to me at car shows about my e30 are aged 20-35.
I’m 31. I’m a doctor. I live in Australia and earn good money. My wife is also a doctor. I love cars.
Between cost of living (mainly trying to pay off a house), the insane cost of desirable/manual enthusiast cars, and the unbelievably limited availability of genuine enthusiast cars on offer during this awkward ICE->electric transition phase, I don’t own a car I like and I have never owned a car I liked.
It’s just not justifiable for me to even buy a Miata (mx5) or an 86 as a second car in our current market, let alone a >$50+k AUD e30 325, or a >$100k base model 997.
Buying an enthusiast car is no longer a REASONABLE step up financially even for a fucking double doctor household - it is a completely unreasonable one that means only the extremely wealthy, OR the financially reckless and car obsessed population buy these objects.
I think Jason has always fallen into that latter classification, and so he doesn’t quite understand that you can love driving and love cars, but still not be able to REASONABLY afford what you want, because he’s always just made it happen no matter the finances or consequences.
Yep. Car prices here in Australia are an entire order of magnitude more crazy than they are in the US/Europe.
I’m in my early 20’s and I bought a E46 330CI for $3.5k during covid. Needed some work but it’s been a joy to drive everyday.
Other cars I’ve gone through in the past few years have been a $2k E36 325i and a $2k C4 corvette project car. Of course I want an M4 or Z06, but these have been more than enough fun while I go to school.
That's a sweet car, I would love to have one.
I also bought an E46 330ci a few years ago!
Paid $7,500 for mine (it was in perfect condition with very low mileage) and sold it last year for $7,000. Really amazing car.
In Australia you need to add a zero (still in USD) to each of those cars to find a drivable example of each
Nobody in their 20's consider E90 to be "ancient". Most of friends at my age (early 20's) drive cars that are 15+ years old, many drive cars from the 90's. Cars that are from 90's and newer are much better to own (running costs, reliability, parts availability etc.) than used cars from the 70's were in the 90's etc. But the "special ones" became valuable collector cars before we could own them, regular fun cars died or are being killed off right now and can be bought either as overpriced "classic" or ran down ex-rally/drift/autocross machine. Enthusiast cars newer than ~ '05+ didn't hit "affordable" point in depreciation curve and a lot of current fun cars barely depreciate at all. Cars that are affordable are noticeably worse than their predecessors (and are hardly ever considered good driver's cars).
Compact sports segment, one that was oriented around young buyer, is dead. And so is hot hatch. There's shitton of 80's, 90's and early 00's hot hatches which were affordable 7-10 years ago. Their successors got turbos, got heavier, bigger and more "adult". They're less fun to drive, harder to service and more expensive to keep running.
Affordable (again, affordable for young people) roadsters are dead. MX5s and MR2s gone through the roof. Even i4 Z3's are way more expensive than any MX5 and cars like Opel GT or Z4 never depreciated as much as their predecessors. The only model left semi-affordable (when buying one in decent condition, not absolute garbage for renovation) is MG F (and it's prices are rising quickly too).
And to end this: Jason spent years repeating how shit F30 is. And now he claims that GOOD, ENTHUSIAST ORIENTED RWD cars are still affordable because there's F30. It's either terminal contrarianism or sky-high level of hypocrisy. Regardless of which one it is, he totally lacks self awareness.
I'm 25 and don't want f30. Jason seems to think that youth enthusiast are ignorant and don't notice that *enthusiast* cars peaked some years ago
I have to agree more with Derek - people do not just automatically want anything that is 10-15 years old. Because of the proliferation of youtube etc., we know what's good and what's not. The F30 was not praised when it came out and I think younger enthusiasts would still prefer E46s and E90s. Like a 235i Gran Coupe is not going to be lusted after 15 years from now because they are considered crap now.
This made me a bit depressed. Im 23 years old living with my parents in Norway, working a full time job that pays just ok; life looks a though uphill battle even getting on the realestate market, AND thats not even factoring in that I dream to buy any sort a sports car/enthousiaste car while Im still young.
As a 24 year old, cool cars I grew up with have definitely become out of reach, and I’d love to talk with you both about it.
Coming from a Gen Z and an Australian perspective. Cause the change is even bigger here, as covid grew prices sure, but now that cars I grew up with, that weren’t legal in the states (like skylines and S15s) are becoming 25 years old, they’re being scooped up by US buyers making them exponentially MORE expensive again. Not so long ago you could buy an R34GTT here for under 10k AUD. They’re a hell of a lot more now especially with RUclipsrs like TJ Hunt (no shade to him lol) buying them up like hotcakes.
Funnily enough, like ya’ll mentioned, I did buy an ISF, and it’s gotta be the best car I’ve ever purchased, but at the same time, that still wasn’t cheap for a 16 year old car, and I feel like I stretched my budget to get it.
PLUS, they only came down to a price I could afford because some Australian laws recently changed allowing 2008 models to be imported from Japan, so we’ve had a mini influx of them recently.
So much has changed, I grew up watching my cousins buy Silvia’s for a couple grand and nowadays you’re looking at close to 20k for a rolling shell.
That’s not in line with inflation, and neither are wages these days, so it’s truly an uphill battle for sure.
The disregard for the role wage stagnation has had on the lives of younger people in general really strikes a bad note, in the same way those videos of landlords who belittle younger people for wanting homes who can't afford them do. Even if you adjust for inflation, there's still the factor of wage stagnation. In highschool, I bought an E28 528e manual for $1100 (2017), a Z31 300ZX turbo for $6200 (2018), and, after graduation, I imported a Corolla Levin for $8950 (2019). Those were all daily drivers and I'm struggling to find an affordable next daily right now to replace that corolla. Notice how long it has been since I last bought a car. I'm still in the Corolla. This is due to inflation and my wage, which has steadily gone up, no longer allowing me the ability to afford a car in condition worthy of daily drivability that is affordable (in purchase price and ownership cost). And I didn't sell those other cars for any reason other than wanting something else. I would have loved a poll to be included in the video, just to see how others feel. Although the comments suggest I'm not alone in my sentiment.
Born 03' and at the 50k-75k mark my absolute dream car would be an S4 lotus esprit. At the lower price point I'd like to get a lotus elan m100. Generally speaking though I tend to enjoy late 90s cars I just happen to have a particular interest in lotus.
From listening to these podcasts I gather Derek is probably 45-50, which is incredible because he looks 27
I’m 20yrs old and Jason is definitely way off base as a young enthusiast I can also see that enthusiast cars have “peaked” quite a bit ago and have witnessed as those cars have reached an unattainable prices. Derek is so right
Most probably knows this but its worth saying:
The downsizing and turbo charging was never really about improving fuel economy. It's about bypassing/exploiting a loophole in NOx/SOx etc emissions. Partially by reducing compression.
Less compression often means colder burn. Nox gets created by very hot combustion (the flamewall) ripping apart Nitrogen molecules in the Air.
Reduce compression and engine size=less Nox. Then add turbo to get back performance. Boost means you need more fuel to cool the cylinders. Then the fuel economy suffers when average joe drives the Turbo torque.
There are exceptions, but its a general tendency.
I'm 25 now, bro outside of the car market, the cost of living is insane now. People I knew who were living independently are moving back in with there parents after covid. I live with my parents still, I used to have 3 old motorcycles and a truck in 2018. I have no motorcycles now and no hope of buying one again till I get a better job. I was actually making 3$ less per hour when I got the motorcycles as well. I can feel a huge change in the dollars value in just the last 2 years. I'm hoping to move up to a 19$ an hour job to move out but honestly I don't know it will be enough to be comfortable.
why isn’t there a carmugeon subreddit
As someone that grew up living in apartments and townhomes, that chandeleir is a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom special. I imagine that Jason didn't grow up lower than middle class.
No one in automotive journalism grew up lower. Most grew up very upper middle class or higher so they have no real frame of reference. I like both these guys but they both see life from a very different perspective than most of us because of their financial position growing up.
No one that studies journalism comes from a poor background, It's one of those professions.
That if you're raised by someone.
Who struggled for mthey will tell you to avoid the arts like the plague unless you are the top 1% of talent. And if you do, you will more than likely be yet another starving artist that owns nothing. Essentially, don't bother me about college unless you want to be a doctor lawyer or engineer
Assumptions everywhere...
Went to high school in Germany
Young enthusiast here. I think yinz are missing the modification aspect of it all. Stripped sound deadening, tires, springs, dampers, swaybars, short shifter, flywheel, and cams (paid over the course of years, of course) would transform a boring car, I would think.
As a 23 year old who lives on my own. I whole heartily agree with DTS here. While the moving target of 15 year old cars has stayed around the same price when adjusted for inflation. Our buying power and let alone ability to be established has highly diminished. Shit I live in Phoenix. A terrible desert thats way too hot and supposed to be cheap but now has an average home purchase price of around 500k. My apartment thats 900sqft is double the cost in rent compared to my parents 3000sqft home mortage they got in 2001. In addition to rent, auto insurance has skyrocketed and continues to. Also to answer the 75k question. LC500 coupe, a used f-type, an r33 gtr, an e400 wagon, or the cleanest oem+ s14/15 i could make.
I graduated from HS in 1986. Performance cars were outrageously expensive. GTI's were out of reach. Most cars had less than 100 hp. It wasn't until the 2000s that there was a bunch of sports cars lying around.
Jason is back .. despite a covid scare? Finally new years muddgeon
Back and better than ever! :) Thanks!
Oh, and about the affordability. I recently learned that average car price in PL has gone up BY 100% between late 2018 and 2023. Even though I'm fortunate to make almost twice what I used to make in 2018 I can afford exactly as much car as I could 5 years ago ceteris paribus. And I doubt many people were equally as fortunate to double their monthly income in the same time span. So that's the optimistic case that does not account for the inflated cost of living. Utilities, groceries, maintenance, everything's gone up in those 5 years so the discretionary income is a smaller % of total than it used to be.
To answer Jason's question at the end as a 22 year old living in Europe: $75k would make me go for one of a few configurations:
(1)R129 SL500+W204 C63+E91 325d/330d (manual). I own an E91 325d so 1/3 I guess?
(2)Mk7.5 GTI Clubsport+Maserati Quattroporte V GTS+ E38 740i manual "shorty sporty"
(3)E46 330i Touring+M2 Comp Manual/997 S Manual
(4) B7 RS4 Manual+Boxster S/GTS Manual+ E91
Don't know if these are within budget but they should be under $100k at least for where I live
Jason is, simply, wrong. Things suck for everyone these days, mostly. As a 50-something poor person, I STILL can’t afford a fun car, but at least I saw them on the road back in the 70s and 80s. Also, try to step outside of your Bay Area bubble - for many people, being able to afford ANY car is a luxury. How long has it been since either of you have taken a bus?
"Car-rich, cash-poor" I like to tell myself that I don't have money, I have collateral
As a young (26) enthusiast with his own disposable income, the cars I have always lusted after have always been rwd sports/muscle cars like Nissan Zs and Mustangs and Mopars. I was able to afford my own, my first car, three years ago (I was 23) on an annual income of ~$25,000. The car I chose: Subaru BRZ. I also have a coworker younger than me who's saving up for his first car: an Infiniti G37. Things might not be as hopeless as Derek fears, as I know the automotive passion is still burning brightly in me, my peers, and other people my age
Gotta say, I recoiled a bit when I heard about the house for 300 bucks a month and a car for 40, having paid that much for a room in a flat with 4 roommates in it in central Europe. And currently paying way more than that for a room in Reykjavik that's narrower than me with arms outstretched.
Sorry, Cammisa. Hyphen is right on this one. In 1993 I had my pick of na or turbo FC RX-7s in the $3000-$5000 range. I ended up with an na '86 in flawless condition for $3500. Find me a flawless GT86 or BRZ from 2017 for anywhere close to the inflation adjusted equivalent to $5k. They don't exist. Neither do the 10 yr old Corollas for the equivalent of $1000 that were everywhere. Over-contenting and cash-for-clunkers have combined to destroy that market.
Watercooled 911s and 3 series have moved up market in cost and size. 1 series and Coxsters are the affordable enthusiast cars now.
I will forever be thankful for being a tradesmen in a boring cheap northern state. At 25 it allowed me to now be on my second home. Make a good living and own a enthusiast car. Things suck right now but I learned at first the hard way that yes there is a better job, yes things do get easier and as long as you don't constantly focus on the negative things will improve.
Jason I appreciated your British Bake off reference btw haha
Based on inflation that 15k in 2008 would be around 21800 in today’s dollars, not 25000. Actually pretty hard to get a good 996 for 22k. And that 3500 is only around 5000 now. You can’t get anything cool for 5k
Forget cool. Try to find "good". I would say you'd have to double the 3500.
As someone who's nearly 25, I find it amusing that the F30 came up as much as it did this episode, because that's exactly what I steered my parents towards buying as one of my family's daily drivers back in 2020. I've been pretty happy with it, even if it's far from perfect I still much prefer driving it to the other family daily, an F-150.
While I haven't driven a very wide variety of cars, I'm lucky to have convinced my dad to buy a manual C7 Z51 when I was 18 which I've gotten to drive for 7 summers now, and have done a bunch of autocross events with it. The two other main options I really wanted were a Lotus Elise/Exige or first-gen NSX. Looking back at the potential choices, I'm fairly happy with the Corvette. I still could see buying a Lotus at some point. Seeing current NSX prices makes me a bit sad, and unfortunately I don't really envision buying one now since I don't see the value for it with current prices.
Now that I'm about to finish my engineering degree in a few months, and have been extremely fortunate in other areas recently as well, I'm intending to buy a more fun daily/winter car for myself this year. So far I'm leaning to a Giulia Quadrifoglio. A CT4-V Blackwing or W205 C63 (or G80 M3 but I doubt I can get past the exterior looks) are the others I plan to try before buying. I also plan to buy my own sports car this summer and avoid relying on dad's C7 (although I certainly hope he never wants to get rid of it, far too much nostalgia for me to be without a C7 anymore). The car that made me realize I was interested in cars when I was around age 12 was the R8. As a homage to my childhood and teenage dreams, I think it'll have to be a first-gen manual V10 R8 in silver or possibly white for me. I hope I'll be able to convince my dad to get a C8 Z06/ZR1 or 992 GT3/991.2 GT3RS within the next few years as well or I may try to stretch for that myself depending how business goes. Additionally I'd consider an F12 Berlinetta or possibly an 812 if it happens to come down significantly in price (although I prefer the F12's looks anyways). I also really like how 1987+ Testarossas look, and I'd be very interested in seeing how much I enjoy the driving experience with one since the prices seem fairly reasonable and unlikely to drop, but I've also never even driven anything older than early 2000s before.
While I'm really lucky to be in the position of being able to acquire even just a few of my many dream cars, I really sympathize with most others around my age where the cost of living definitely inhibits their car enthusiasm since they feel they won't be able to reach any cars they truly want for decades. Some of my friends turned to just buying motorcycles instead to experience a fast vehicle because of how impossible a $50k+ winter-storaged car plus another car as a daily is in their lives currently. Most that I know are limited to just one car, and end up choosing something fairly practical like an IS350, Audi S3, 340i, C43, Civic Si, Elantra N, etc.
Talking about enthusiast cars that can be bought by younger people, I think 00-2015 is pretty full actually. Short list of stuff from those years that can be found for under $20k and be a real enthusiast car:
BRZ/FRS/86, GTO, MR2-S, Miata NA/NB/NC/ND, Mustang, F-Body, E36 330i, 135, 128, 986 Boxster, GTI, Civic SI (various years), Nissan Z, G35/37, Mini Cooper, C5 corvette (a bit over), WRX and WRX STI, Golf R, High Mile S2000, Solstice/Sky, Fiesta ST, RS-X, Audi TT...
Probably a lot more, point is, that era is pretty stuffed, and a lot of people overlook those cars because right about 2015 is when horsepower really jumped into the stratosphere. But if you can't have fun in a BRZ or a Miata, that's a YOU problem.
I love this show - 22+ mins in and still haven't gotten to the title discussion! May things never change...the tangents is what makes this show for me
Thank you DTS for bringing up the "why you are poor graph". I love Jason but he is way out of touch here. Having 10k to spend on your weekend shitbox in 2024 is more like having 20k in 2004. Also, wages have stagnated compared to whenever Jason bought that 77k home. The home might still be the same relative the median home price in the area, but the ability to afford it while paying down student loan debt and working a comparable job is simply not there.
The why you are poor graph was too real 😂
As a young enthusiast one of my problem (and something I'd love to see discussed on the show in some form) is that I don't know what I want. I've watched a ton of youtube videos where people go on about steering feel, force induction vs NA and so on but having experienced a very limited number of cars (compared to them) I have found that just because you like someone and the videos they make doesn't mean you're going to have the same opinions as them. I have the feeling that a lot of people take the words of the internet as gospel but I really want to have a broader IRL experience and form preferences of my own.
Pretty much all of these can be had from late 2000s in $10k-$20k. It's not a BAD time to be an enthusiast, you just have to be willing to accept the shortcomings of these cars the way we accepted the shortcomings of 70s/80s/90s cars.
NC Mazda MX-5
BMW E46 330i
BMW Z4 Ms
BMW e92 335i
BMW 135is
S197 Mustang GT 5.0
5th Gen Camaro SS
Porsche 987 Boxster/Cayman
Chevy Corvette C6
Honda Civic Si
Nissan 350Z
All BRZ/FRSs
WRX/STis
Evo Xs
VW GTI/R32 Mk5
TONIGHT! Jason, ... Does a thing! Derek, ... Says a word! And HAGERTY,... Offers road side assistance!!!
next on the wall needs to be a tacoma water pump gasket
Just turned 27 this month and my Absolute Dream car is a 1984 Audi Sport Quattro but realistically a Porsche 911. Currently Drive a 2011 Audi S5 and 2011 Honda CRZ both lowered and on alloy wheels.
I'm 27 and I managed to get my hands on a nice driver's example 2011 NC2 last year for about $13K (partially influenced by the two Carmudgeons' favorable recommendations of the car). I wanted a BRZ/GR86, but it would've been at least twice as much. I live in a city, I make over $70K a year, and I have 2 roommates that I split rent 3 ways with. Even at $13K, my NC2 was a stretch for me, and I consider myself pretty well-off for my age.
What used to be $15K 10 years ago may be $25K now, but cost of living and wages have not kept in line with inflation. Expenses have been skyrocketing and wages have been remaining stagnant, and the disparity is indisputably the WORST that Americans and the rest of the world have ever seen. I don't care if that doesn't line up with whatever anyone's politics may be -- it is a well-documented fact, and it shows no signs of improving.
I make good money, but I can hardly afford to put any of it towards my passion for cars/driving, and I barely get to save anything. The Miata purchase happened because I realized -- If I don't buy and enjoy a sports car now, I probably won't ever be able to.
I am fortunate enough to be able to enjoy my Miata only because both my roommates have CUVs, so if we need to haul things or more than 2 people, their cars suffice, and they're happy I get to drive my little Mazda because they know how important it is to me (even if they're not car people).
I only have 1 available parking space, and street parking is not safe where I live, so my Miata is my only car. Most young people simply cannot swing that kind of ownership experience -- I'm lucky that my living situation has allowed me to have a stupid, impractical, hilarious roadster as my only car, but it needs to be noted how unrealistic that is for almost anyone my age.
I nearly doubled my income from 2015 and moving to a more expensive city, it hasn't meant all that much. everything went to the moon in the last 3 years and erased most of what I did, it's very frustrating.
Oh I can't wait to hear the reasons why I can't even afford a used ND MX-5 after some years of employment. There must be more to this than my personal financial mistakes 😅
Every generation has it's challenges! I'm 57. When I was young, we were just coming out of a long period of inflation, so cars (and fuel and insurance) were expensive. And, living where it snows means that most decade-old cars were already rustbuckets. The cool cars -- those used muscle cars or cool Euro cars -- were out of reach unless you had a lot of mechanical skills and access to a garage and tools (I did not!).
But, I also grew up in the age of the Japanese econobox - light, great handling cars that were cheap to own. Nobody thought they were cool (until the GTI) but they offered 2000 lb, manual transmissions cars with good balance in both rwd ('80 GLC Sport) and fwd ('84 Civic 1500S) form. Great starter fun cars!
The Civic was replaced with a 90 RX-7 which was a big step up. Again, not the 'cool' 7, but a two-seat sports car with an 8000 rpm redline. That car killed me in maintenance costs, but it was fun while it lasted.
Young people today have a bigger pool as modern cars last a lot longer. A dozen year old E-type in 1980 was either expensive or required a lot of skill to keep running; a dozen year old Corvette is a rocketship that seems pretty easy to maintain. Corvettes, Mustangs and Camaros are around and are shockingly fast; and there are still used Z's around too. Lots of interesting options for those who can find some spare cash.
I'm a 33yo living in Western Europe. I never considered cars older than ~1985 as I had an impression of them being old rust buckets, based on (10+ year old) examples I had around me when I grew up. From 1985 on, I think the enthusiast cars got progressively better up to around 2010, after which everything became too fast, too turbocharged and computerised. When I started buying cars in early 2010s, the 80s and 90s enthusiast cars were within my reach and basically free by modern standards, but I still generally stuck in the 2002-2008 period (A3 8L 180hp, Corolla E120 TS, multiple RS4 B7, M3 E90). Now that I have a decent job and can afford whatever I like, I settled on a 2003 996 GT2 and would only consider pre-2000 cars, in Jason's words, only to scratch an obscure itch. I see them (80s and 90s cars) go up in value and don't feel any regret for not buying when they were cheap because I feel like I had a better experience in more modern versions.
I’m 22 now and I own a Alfa 75 2.0 twinspark,I found out that most of young enthusiasts around me want a car from 90’s ,not a 10 years old car
Jason really seem out of touch in this episode with cost of living, suprisingly Derek is really in line, I would thought the other way around
Had the same thought
respectfully, fuck all those cars Jason mentioned. we want E30s and 911s and 240zs just like you guys did
I've had the privilege of driving the cars you mentioned and most of the ones jason mentioned. You are very correct. The older ones are MUCH better to drive for fun. I own 2 240Zs, an alfa spider, and a 1990 miata. They are all better enthusiast cars than anything jason mentioned.
Being 26 and having spoken with car enthusiasts around 18-20 at car meets, the problem is new cars just not being very interesting. They want a Supra, a Z, an NSX. No, not the new ones, A80, 240/350 and the original one with pop-ups. To a 20 year old with a passing interest in cars, if you say 'M3' the first assumption is that you're talking about the E46. It warms my heart to see the disdain they have for EVs as well.
2007 BMW E92 is still my daily driver :
Compact
RWD
Manual
Naturally aspirated
Quality interior
Easy DIY maintenance
Lots of afternarket
Stylish understated looks
Jason is out of his mind. He's become as disconnected as his dad.
Like a other boomer
Both Jason and Derek made some good points, and i do think it's possible for the younger enthusiast to own something worthwhile, not expecting the newest and greatest thing and getting something with good value is really importnant.
Some people might wish for an m5 or 911, but in reality those cars and far fetched and you might need to settle for something cheaper. Cheaper in this market doesn't necessarily mean bad quality or worse.
i am 23 years old and own 3 cars. Volvo 940 turbo wagon, A 1982 w123 230te wagon, and a 1986 porsche 944 turbo. All highly analog cars with great build quality and future collectors value
Great trio, It sounds like you live in Sweden!
Derek, to your comment on "why would a car enthusiast want a F30 BMW?!?" keep in mind...most don't have the breadth of experiences with different cars that you do. So if the only sample size in your brain is the relatively new Honda or Toyota your parents gave you to drive during high school/college...a F30 BMW M3 probably feels pretty good. And if you never go and drive an older car that weighs 1,000lbs less, has hydraulic steering, an NA motor, etc. you never really know what you are missing.
I think where you might be getting hung up is the sheer number and breadth of cars you have driven.
There was also an inflection point where cars were allowed to have shortcomings. Performance cars were allowed to be ostensibly bad in some way because “you can’t have it all.” And that "bad-ness" could be reflected in secondary prices that fell a lot because the cars had issues/traits that most normal people wanted nothing to do with. And I think it was more common to accept the 2+ car solution. Now, I meet more and more enthusiasts who want their cars to be daily-able and reliable (even if they aren't 1-car solutions), and they want vehicles that don't have shortcomings that make the cars have flaws. But flaws often generate character, which gives the car personality...something many of us value.
Derek is unique in the amount of automotive experience he has had...most people old or young have never been in the same room as a Miura or a GT3RS, or had parents with cool expensive Euro cars. A lot of people had a dad with a pickup truck and the correct spec for a tire was "round", and sports cars were pony cars in their mind.
As a young enthusiast (born Y2K) another thing to consider is that my entire adult life has been on crisis after another. Covid hit before I was 20, then hyper-inflation followed by Ukraine and now Palestine. So I don't want to get a 15 year old BMW with 200,000 miles. With so much uncertainty in the world I at least want something with some level of stability to where it won't break and cost me hundreds of dollars. And so I bought a newer GTI, I took the safe way out. It cost the same as the older BMW, but parts are cheaper and it (hopefully) won't break as much.
Sounds like you're doing great, despite all these 'crises', some of which don't affect you at all. If you're letting foreign conflicts get to you, you're setting yourself up for a life of unnecesssary anxiety.
My list for 75k and under usd cars (im uk based so some might not be available in the US)
1.Tommy Kaira ZZ/Leading Edge 240 RT
2.Exige Cup 260
3.Exige S1
4.Europa S1
5.FD RX7
6.Clio v6
7.R32 GTR VSPEC II
8.911 Carrera 3.2 g50
I don’t have anything new to add to the conversation as it seems like a lot of people have made the same points over and over again, but my personal experience is that now that I am significantly more wealthy than I was even three years ago, I hesitate to purchase more expensive and rare cars because after going through an engine replacement with my GT 350 I’m terrified of owning anything out of warranty
Derek acknowledges the economic reality of so many people in this one. Jason makes some good counterpoints as well, but he makes it sound like he was particularly lucky and successful early on. It's true for everyone. Our experience is our reality, and we think it applies equally for others as well. On a side note, I'd just like to compliment the guys on their Aussprache der deutchen Sprache in die anderen Episoden! Solch eine gute Ausbildung!
Though I will always be an enthusiast, its now really tough to be one. So many clout chasers with no passion for cars but cravers for attention have killed it for the true enthusiasts. Also enthusiast cars have gotten wildly expensive thanks to RUclipsrs & social media in general.