The Delicate Dance of Being Nice To Cars - Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep. 134
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- Опубликовано: 25 фев 2024
- It's not always easy being nice when you're paid to be honest. This week, the Carmudgeons discuss how to give a bad review without upsetting everyone.
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John Phillips: "What Not To Write."
www.caranddriver.com/features...
Derek's job is to facilitate sales of cars between collectors, which often requires him to be honest to both buyer and seller. That's especially difficult when a car isn't great.
Jason's job is to give unbiased, fact-based reviews of cars. It's easy when things are good, but word choice and observations require extra scrutiny when insults are flying.
Perhaps no one did harsh reviews better than Automobile Magazine's Robert Cumberford or Car and Driver's John Phillips. And so Jason recounts Robert's hilarious takedown of the famously opulent Bugatti EB110 reveal from 1991. And he found a Car and Driver column from Mr. Phillips where he shared some of his most hilarious burns.
But the best part of the episode? Listening to Derek giggle. 
Авто/Мото
Journalistic integrity is a lost value. There is a fundamental difference between an actual journalist and car enthusiast content creators. While there may overlap in the social media space, Journalism is an actual discipline and a storied profession. We respect the opinion of those who take their influence seriously and do their due diligence in research, word choice, and testing parameters.
I think the problem is that "journalism" as you frame it was only possible when there were a small number of outlets that could dictate the agenda. In the current media environment, outlets absolutely have to pander to their audience, to reflect their audience's opinions, not lead them. Put it this way. Let's say there's an enthusiast magazine where the journalists are of the view that modern performance cars with paddles and turbos and digital everything mostly miss the point of what makes a car fun to drive. Well, they can't just hammer every new car with paddles and turbos and driver-flattering digital systems. It would alienate the readership.
It's what buyers like, which is why car makers pretty much all do that now. If such a magazine attempted to tell all their readers all the time that they're getting it wrong, they'll go elsewhere. It's far too easy now for audiences to find content that matches their preference. Note, this is just an example. I'm not saying that all enthusiasts have to insist on NA engines and manual boxes or whatever. Just that outlets that want large audiences have to embrace mainstream preferences just as much as car makers must and indeed do.
In the old days, a company like Mercedes would engineer a car like a W124, essentially saying this is our idea of the very best mid-sized luxury sedan / saloon, and you'd better agree because we are the experts. Now, it's much more customer focussed. So, Mercedes engineering is nothing special, the cars are very plasticky and glitzy. Mercedes dictates nothing to its customers, it's entire in thrall to the customer base. And for most car buyers, that's a good. Just not for enthusiasts, because most car buyers aren't enthusiasts and so cars aren't optimised for them.
In a similar way, I don't think there's much space for enthusiast "journalism" any more. There's space for journalism around things like new EV tech and range and charging issues etc. But "journalism" at is pertains to cars like a new Ferrari, Aston or Porsche? Or journalism aimed at enthusiasts covering a new mainstream Mercedes? Sadly, I don't think that makes sense any more. The cars are built for a certain kind of audience and with that in mind enthusiast concerns - at least driving enthusiast as opposed to car enthusiast concerns, which aren't quite the same thing - are pretty tangential. I mean, Ferrari hasn't made a manual car in over 10 years. There's never been a modern McLaren with a manual box at all (the F1 isn't really related to the "modern" model ranges). So, the idea that, say, manual gearboxes are more involving, it's just irrelevant to those brands and their customers. And that, I'd argue, essentially spells the end of "journalism" in this context. It's no longer relevant.
True integrity never existed. We just miss the idea of it. The influnce on jounalism has always existed, and are simply more observable today due to the internet. Back in the days things are less transparent, so outlets can maintain a facade easier.
@@lairdinho I get your point but you're completely missing it with your choice of arguments and the counterarguments have been provided in this very podcast time and time again. Companies are listening to enthusiasts when these enthusiasts buy these cars, flappy paddles don't make a car inherently worse, certain solutions die out not just because the target audience doesn't want them but very often because of the regulations and OEM suppliers dictating what is and what is not available. And so on, and so forth. And real journos have been whining about modern cars being boring for a while now, I can't see them alienating the audience based on the reception of this podcast or how Chris Harris went from a writer to a TV personality.
@@pdcichosz I disagree on every point. Cars companies by definition are listening to their customers, and that's not the same as enthusiasts. It's the people who have the money to buy the cars. So, the cars have become luxury goods and trophies. Moreover, this podcast is, essentially tiny. Chris Harris also isn't a good example as he'll complain about the way modern performance cars have gone in general and then big up most modern cars when he actually reviews them individually. In any case, all of this is a puny pin prick compared to the instagram influencer bros etc selling the flappy paddle lifestyle to the mouthbreathing masses. I'm afraid wealthy enthusiasts don't own modern McLarens and Ferraris. Unless you are talking about luxury goods enthusiasts, hence the overlap for those people with watches. Wealthy driving enthusiasts don't buy those cars. As Derek said, they are "wanker" cars. That doesn't mean they're not good cars. Some of them are incredible engineering feats, they are incredible wanker cars. They're just not engineered for driving enthusiasts.
@nho Ok, I take back what I said earlier, I *don't* get your point after all ;) You disagree with the statement that there's a difference between journalists and car enthusiast content creators, arguing the former as defined above are no longer relevant... and then move on to describing an 'enthusiast car magazine' that would alienate its audience because turbos and flappies are what they want. I'm lost at what an 'enthusiast' is in your mind as you juggle that term in multiple different contexts.
You also say you disagree with every point I made, including the one about regulations and OEMs dictating what a customer can get and not customers themselves. Sorry, you disgree with... facts? EPAS is prevalent in cars now primarily because 1) it enables easy implementation of safety features required by regulators like lane assist, 2) it's cheaper to produce and less complicated than HPAS, 3) OEMs calculate it doesn't make sense to make HPAS any more so only that dreaded, supposedly non-enthusiast McLaren has it. It's very much *not* customers who pushed for it, the customers didn't really know the difference and had no say in the switch. Similar story with the turbos, they co-existed with N/A cars for decades and had their place in the enthusiast community. It's not even obvious if every enthusiast wants a N/A car outside of the Carmudgeon bubble. And we got the turbo-everything because manufacturers needed them for emissions and performance-deteriorating weight gains (again, regulations) that couldn't be solved with displacement because... emissions again. Not because every commuter wanted to experience the turbo lag and sudden bursts of power in the stop-and-go traffic of the rush hour.
BRZ/GR86 is not going to be sold in the EU anymore because Toyota is not interested in installing the safety features mandatory from July 2024 in it. That car had actual market demand and got axed by regulations and excel tables. On the other hand, Toyota's updated its GR Yaris based on actual feedback from its entirely 'enthusiast' (non-enthusiasts just don't buy that car) customer base and reviewers. Porsche wouldn't have developed a new manual gearbox if it didn't see a potential in the market, just to get some thumbs up from regular Joes in their E46s. And so on, and so forth.
CH had to start his M2 review apologetically because he knew he was facing backlash for saying nice things about this car. He did it anyway, I'd argue because he has a journalist's integrity. And Journos, whether or not they like flappy paddles virtually all acknowledge these wanker 'rraris are what every enthusiast would find joyful to drive, regardless of who actually buys them and for what reason. I can't recall one review stating a modern Ferrari is 'not engineered for driving enthusiasts'.
Can we maybe get a bit more discussion on the automotive journalism side of this (being honest, getting banned, fancy press trips, objectivity, easily replaceable Influencers, paying your own airfare or waiting for local press cars, ..).?
I think the worry is less about missing fancy trip than being able to do your job. New car previews are one way to earn your pay at an outlet and getting tossed from them could limit employment prospects.
The reason John had to redact the comment about the Geo Metro is actually because the criticism was so blunt it caused permanent body damage to any Metro within proximity to the article. The amount of recalls alone would've been devastating.
This episode was as focused as a Lexus product planning meeting.
A whole episode of Hyphen giggles, this is the best part of my month.
The Pneumonia reference on the Caterham most likely relates to the fact that you are exposed to the elements while driving. Especially in the UK with normal cold and rainy conditions which could quickly turn into an unscheduled HSS visit.
Roofs and windows are for the weak....
On the John Phillips Chrysler dead pedal line: My guess would have been that Somalia's enormous coastline is home to many important trade routes. Piracy has been common along those routes since antiquity, so perhaps the prosthetic leg is a peg.
Missed opportunity in the beginning for Derek to say Derek Adam Sandler Scott
Regarding the "Somalian prosthetic leg": Somalia is known for Somali pirates. Pirates are known for peg legs. He was calling the pedal wooden.
I had the misfortune of being in the middle of drinking water during "a trade deficit"
I'm in tears - Jason you had absolutely perfect delivery of that line. The pause, inflection, everything. It broke me
This episode was as focused as a myopic eyesight, and yet as hilarious as Robin Williams’ Cecil B. DeMille Award acceptance speech! Maybe the latter is a bit of a stretch, but it was a great laugh over lunch today! 😂😂😂
One of my favorite Phillips articles was the one about him, his dad, a subpar Cadillac, and a concours type car show.
“… a trade deficit, acid reflux, impotence, and a military coup in Ecuador.”🤣
I haven’t laughed this hard since the Pontiac Sunfire challenge.
Phillips is the reason I subscribed to C&D for so many years....
I have the same tires on my Fit as Jason's E-Golf. I noticed the same noise and we road-force balanced the wheels and 1 wheel was WAY beyond spec for road force so we remounted+balanced and it dropped GREATLY.
Keep in mind we do have Manufacturer testing equipment and my ECS balanced better than all but it was a difference.
I'm guessing the pneumonia is referring to the car's open nature. First it assaults you with noise and violent motions, then you catch a cold from the elements.
Those Quatracs are European all season tyres and they are a fabulous breed of tyre. They have a harder compound than a dedicated winter tyre, but they use a winter tyre pattern. I have a set of Falkens of the same nature on my 190E and they are grip better than pretty much anyting on wet roads and between 0 and 10 degrees Celsius. They also handle light snow with relative ease, breaking distance being about 10% longer than a dedicated winter tyre from the same manufacturer. They fall a bit short when the weather gets hot, at over 30 degrees Celcius the initial steering response feels more vague, and that might be a problem on a sports car, but on a 2.0 automatic 190E they are just fantastic.
Robert Cumberfords' design analysis articles in Automobile Magazine were so damn cool. He often added a little spice to the descriptions.
happy to see back the DTS dictionary
John Phillips' Cybertruck review is one of the best things I've ever read.
So I saw the title of the episode and I thought it would be a discussion of how to take care of a car while still enjoying it at the limit. Now I'm curious about your thoughts on the topic
One of the endearing things about Car & Driver during it's golden years was that they would say 'suck' if 'suck' was warranted. The picture of the Opel Cadet in a scrapyard comes immediately to mind. The opposite of classic C&D is today's Motor Trend. Not an offensive word in a million. BTW, Jeane was a certified kickass back in the day. But then, I'm an east coast guy.....
Love these random episodes! Genuinely made me laugh out loud
"Window licker"? Jesus man, that's bad. Here in the UK you'd get absolutely flamed for that.
Lance Stroll intensifies
Car and Driver had an article comparing 3 cars that went like: “here’s a corpulent ballerina, a blind archer and a dwarf basketball player. Let’s talk about them and the cars to see who/which lies the least to themselves”
Funniest car article I’ve ever read in Portuguese to this day. If I find it I’ll edit this and post it here
Context:
(Here in Brazil it’s quite common to see manufacturers come up with “sporty” versions of crappy cars that are just some badging, small wings and fake aero/aggressive bits in a mushy, slow, A-B commuter. So they wanted to find out which car had the most resemblance of sporty traits to support the badges)
Jason, PLEASE post the Robert Cumberford piece!
The relaunch of a French make taking place in French. How weird is that?
Love you guys! Keep up the good work!
The problem is that Artioli didn’t speak French. So even his bit was a bit of a disaster. 😊
I love this episode.
The John Phillips August 1992 article, “1992 Ferrari 512TR Epic Cross-Country Road Trip,” is available online. “Bran, like the cereal, asks if he can get out.” 😂 Nearly anything written by Phillips needs to be read well before or well after consuming any type of libation.
FANTASTIC
I wish I remember who wrote it - but in the 90's, C&D ripped the Pontiac Grand Prix about it's never ending number of styling of ribs and winglets. Histerical.
RegularCarReviews perfected the art of shitting on a car and (mostly) getting away with it
Ah yes, the high pitched Tim the Gate Guard giggles from Hyphen! Lol
Good laughs guys. 😄👍
I've lived all and found the Pittsburgh culture to be the perfect mix of East Coast directness and Midwest niceness. Of all the US cultural cliques,found them the most tolerable. Second place is Chicago, they can handle being yelled at, they can be nice and they can take a joke.
'The windowlicker' is Rocketpoweredmohawk's default insult for Lance Stroll. I've been watching Drive to Survive for the past 2 days and every time the young Canadian appears on the screen I can't help but replay it in my head xD That guy is a master of humour pushed too far and then some more for a good measure, if you like unhinged, go check him out :D
British ain't all sofly spoken lads, you ever been to Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle? You would piss yourselves laughing. Great show, i love listening to you 2😂
Jason if you're reading this, yes we do watch your videos for the comedic entertainment (and the singing). John Phillips sounds like a hilarious dude you need to find a way to get him on the show.
40:32 is insane 😂😭
Love the definition!!!😂😂😂😂
...as focussed as a bee in a honeypot.
Many thanks
Candy and Dan
🐶♥🧙♂🍄
John Phillips should review a mk.i Ferdinand Piëch ....
@33:25 is why we all watch JC. both you guys have a way with words and make it so friggin funny.
If 90% of jest is truth, then this is wicked funny!
Anyway, that’s why we watch because you guys are good at what you do
Making Derek laugh was probably the highlight of the show. Including the lines which had me giggling.
As focused as a ferret in the engagement ring display case at Tiffany's.
You guys missed the ultimate JP article - the original Battle of the Beaters. The only C/D article to make me nearly throw up from laughing.
I’m not going to lie, I thought this episode was about mechanical sympathy, but I am definitely not complaining😂😂😂 great episode as always!
Shoutout to the Bugatti discussion from 6 months ago… I’m glad we’re getting a V16 rather than some corporate Porsche V8. What do you guys make of a V16 from a technical perspective?
I LOVE the battleshit graphic. Never have I seen a Better album cover for a grindcore album
Jason have you ever reviewed a 4th Gen Fbody? Even during it's sales cycle it didn't seem to get much attention from the media/reviewers. I don't remember ever seeing anything from you about them either, what are your thoughts?
This episode is as focused as a homophobic sniper on poppers.
On the spot, that one 😁
It's really tough to do though and this episode was an unexpected surprise. Will say, I find the ride in my base Mk5 Golf truly mesmerizing on 15s with Nexens and a leaking front right strut.
Don't find it hard to believe for a second something that supple and sophisticated would cocoon you on 18s like it's riding on 16s, I think it really has a lot to do with the factory damping
Huh. So that's why I had all those fights in college, in SF. Huh, now ya tells me....
@ Jason - no idea if you read these. I'm a fellow western PA guy, and I have 15x7 wheels on my E30. I wanted to import the Vredesteins but they stopped making them in the stock 205/55R15 size. Where were you able to find them?
What happened to Mazda Sky-Active X?
It flopped?
Les torque than a small turbo engine with same or worse fuel economy. Comparing it to diesels is even worse for mazda. Why bother with a limp anemic NA four banger, when a diesel uses less fuel, whilst delivering a better driving experience?
Mazda just kinda lost the plot. Their range ectender rotary is even more idiotic than sky active NA engines....
@@leviathan5207that makes sense, I agree, Mazda is making some interesting choices lately
Summer performance tires don't like cold, as in below about 50 degrees F. Not surprising the Vredesteins would be better in winter, even or NorCal.
I'm over a week late, but just imagining Cammisa and Derek on edibles would be unbelievable.
I said "What???" in unison with Derek at the Le Car one 😂
John Phillips said about himself, "I crashed my racecar at Mosport, into a sign that said "Hava A Coke", when I was done, it said "Have a ....."
Goddam i needed those laughs... this episode was brilliant!
Don't know if it's a size or regional thing, but in Europe at least Vredestein offers a Quatrac EV on top.
The meritocracy comment essentially described 95% of the high end market in Miami. You can tell whose who just by looking to see if they have gaudy aftermarket wheels on their super cars and or Rolls/Bentleys.
I am pretty sure the Caterham pneumonia comment is due to the fact that it is going so fast and it is such an open air vehicle that you could catch a cold or pneumonia.
As focused as a fish-eye laminate clinging crookedly to the rear window of a 1974 Winnebago.
In your world... How do you soften the blow... Omg... Too unintentionally hilarious
So, instead of saying something sucks, you have to describe the manner in which it sucks?
Good god I haven't laughed that hard in a while.
Conclusion: This Episode was as Focused as Ford's Sedan Sales.
Ford's myopic vision certainly led to their inability to Focus.
Their strategy represents the Fusion of changing consumer tastes with the recognition that the Fiesta was over.
Said the full-size sedan design team: "They took out whole department and Taur us apart"
55:25 "This Episode Was as Focused As"... A pilot watching porn, emergency landing into a parking lot of Pintos. 😂❤🏁
Jason is so handsome, even though he’s clean shaven …
WooFF!
Adam Sandler? This you?
One gripe I have with car journalism is that it is inherently biased toward new cars. In many cases it is presented as a foregone conclusion that this year's model is better than last year's, and very rarely are vehicles compared across decades. Of course, no journalist would be employed for very long if they simply said "this car is worse than the one from 10 years ago. the industry as a whole is moving in the wrong direction," so it's understandable. But the result is a lack of an objective standard through time, and the lack of what could be a productive conversation about the auto industry as a whole.
Everything ‘80s and turbocharged, what? And what about the Eagle Talon Tsi and it’s 4G63 Mitsubishi bullet proof 2L L4?
great comedy needs no explanation.
Went to a coffee shop yesterday and saw a guy buying an espresso. Who does he think he is, buying a connoisseur drink like that? He didn’t even know which side of the Kenya the beans were grown at. Such a poser. 🙃
How did I get here this early? 🎉😂
Ok ok ok but hyphen's BICEPS? WHAT!?
The episode was as focused as a burned out flashlight.
The Pontiac Aztec was run away and hide UGLY!
Just imagine that someone had to sign off on the final design. Helen Keller, perhaps?
Obvious homage callback: This episode was as focused as the Bugatti eb110 roll out
39:27 they missed the Somalian pirate jokes
Saab 900 would like a word about durability…
As focused as a classic Barbra Walters interview.
Have you guys thought about a “Clips” channel? Something viewers can watch that highlights chosen topics? Something much shorter than an entire show.
Roooorooool Jooorrruuuurrrr
😅
i'm creeped out a little at your matching haircuts.
SKINFADE BRO
love the dictionary insert for some of the more obscure words!
If those words are obscure… you’re in trouble. I hope you haven’t reproduced yet.
Definition 2 : your mother 😅 Did you catch that? 😅
Seated heats
Ah, the Captain and Toenail.
I would have expected that the time in germany would have had an impact on Jasons directness because of how that's handled in the german language area. ;-)
As neither the Brits nor the US people are known for being direct compared to central and northern europe...
Yet even here in car magazines you read little criticism, and if it's of the wrong way (in my opnion): I remember the single "blinker-windscreenwiper-highbeams lever" in Mercedes being criticized for years, instead of real issues. Or when the dreadfull touch-display-madness started, cars and manufacturers that used a different method (that was and would still be safer to use while driving) were told that they are too oldfashioned and that their infotainment lacks on modernness.
So to be honest i blame the "wrong critcism policy" of car jouralists partially for the "shitshow" of interiors we now have in modern cars, where the malfunction of a display backlight can turn a car into a paperweight. (as in some cars you even have to use the only screen in the car to select D, R or P) And that manufactuers have lost their ability to make usable interiors: Look at the instrument cluster in the current Mustang, BMWs and Mercedes for example: no shielding from sideways or straight down light, just some ugly cheap looking screens that one won't be able to read anything if the sun is straight up or at the side...
As focused as an elderly reader whose bifocals had been swapped with the lenses of man so farsighted his investment plans account for the heat death of the universe.
Not bad for two minutes of thought, but It'd need to be more concise to make it into print.
windowlicker by aphex twin Longest limo ever in the video. Also used in top gear more than once i believe and a mercedes advert. Disturbing watch...
windows taste like windex
This is week two I had to say something did you cut your own hair?
Neither of these guys knows what a Rural Route mailbox was.
Nor a party line.
Derek is clearly not big on Aphex Twin.
His directness is snarky and mean, that’s different than fun ribbing or breaking balls
Journalism died when journalists became activists.
I guess journalism died well over 100 years ago. That's when the so called "muckraking journalists" of the progressive era helped crate and pass multiple laws constraining businesses for the public and national good. They exposed the excesses of business across multiple industries and the resulting public outrage caused politicians to react.
Why NSX is bad?
Admit it Jason you didn’t determine she was from Queens over Brooklyn by something she said it was more because of her ethnicity. 😉
Just to show how little Jason really knows, he refers to the Typhoon as an 80s vehicle, despite it debuting in 92.
It's engine was very stout, as was the Buick Grand National/GNX and the 89 Turbo T/A, which actually were 80s vehicles.
Don't believe the hype with these guys.
That’s like calling an E30 a 90’s BMW. Sure, it was sold for two years in the 90s, but the car was developed in the 80s and majority were sold in that time frame as well.
This episode was as focused as a Biden press response.