Every Mustang including Dark Horse - Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep. 118
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- Опубликовано: 29 окт 2023
- Review of the 2024 S650 Ford Mustang Dark Horse and every generation of Mustangs ever - it's The Mustang Episode!
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In this episode of the Carmudgeon Show, automotive journalist Jason Cammisa talks with historian and expert Derek Tam-Scott about the history of the Ford Mustang.
The story begins with Lee Iacocca's 1965 Mustang, which was largely a marketing ruse, since the sports-car looks masked an economy-car chassis. And heads through the Mustang II, the Fox-Body and SN95 Mustang, the S197 Mustang, and finally the S550, including the incredible Shelby GT350 and GT500 models.
And then finally, Jason reviews the S650 Mustang GT Performance and Mustang Dark Horse. Including comparing it with the BMW M2, Toyota GR Supra, and the gorgeous Lotus Emira.
It's everything you need to know about the Ford Mustang. 
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Hey Jason, who writes the captions for your Hagerty videos? I dunno if anyone else noticed another level of hilarious writing in those. It feels like a great Easter Egg.
Jason: I write them for ICONS episodes; it's my favorite part of the post-production process. Hehe...
@@TheCarmudgeonShowI think they are a great addition. Makes me instantly rewatch ICONS episodes if I have the time to do so.
Makes so much sense now 😂
Derek, do a show featuring your 1/18 car collection. I'd like to see how the collection compares to the cars you own or have owned and cars tested. A model car collection is a reflection of an enthusiasts personality as it relates to motoring and motoring history !
The S197 Boss 302 is a surprisingly well balanced car held back only by the MT-82 transmission.
Raw and more capable on the street than me as a driver. Hides its weight well, too. Tracing its history through the original homologated Boss 302 vs Chevrolet Camaro in the SCCA Trans Am series has turned me onto Mustangs. Reminding me of the competition between STi vs Evo in WRC.
Driving a S197 Boss 302 for a bit has made me appreciate the car, but it's limits are too high for the roads I drive on. Definitely needs a track to stretch its legs. That car's history deserves more attention. Great example for anybody who thinks a Mustang can't handle well.
Jason’s engine and exhaust sound imitations are always on point.
People have the nerve to bi@ch about free, AMAZING Carmudgeon content!?!? Seriously, Hyphen and Jason, you guys are freaking rock stars. Let them eat cake. (Still butthurt that you hate the F80 Jason, but will get over it, eventually.) Love you guys. Keep up the great work!
Awesome! One of my favorite shows is on again with another episode. Jason, when is your next colab with Throttle House and will Derek ever be in one of those colabs?
Soon as we can!
Hope Derek shows up in more crossovers. He should be on the Smoking Tire.
My grandfather had a ‘66 Mustang convertible when I was a kid in the mid ‘80s, red, with the 289 and an automatic. Thinking about it brings me back to warm summer evenings blasting through rural Indiana backroads on the way to an A&W for a burger and a root beer float.
About a decade later my best friend and I were friends with a local … let’s say entrepreneur in pharmaceutical sales who had a white ‘65 convertible, another V8-automatic car. This one had an aftermarket stereo with a big amp and a sub. We spent a good portion of the summer of ‘95 cruising around Dallas in that thing accompanied by the sounds of Cypress Hill.
Still a decade later, living in Austin, another friend had a white ‘66 notchback, this one with a hotrodded 302 with big valves, a lumpy cam, and dual side-exit exhaust making that familiar Windsor music, also an automatic.
Guess I have a fair number of memories about first-gen Mustangs. But when I think of them it’s always summer somewhere.
Definitely enjoying the new edits!
Great work New Guy
Fox Body mustangs respond well to MM suspension modifications. They can handle well and I 100% support Jason adding a 5.0 to the fleet. Prices aren’t too bad right now for some nice examples here in the Bay Area. Fun cars!! Right up there with the E30 and miata for a genuine and reliable driving experience
That's a great pronunciation of otorrinolaringologo! It's even hard for me to pronounce and I'm from Spain
The SVO was a model that was sold alongside the V8 GT, it was the top model at the time but it didn’t replace the V8.
Someone needs to make a compilation of hyphen's messed up claps.
Great start to the week!!
Agreed!
Hyphen, Sword in the Stone is top 3 Disney movies for sure. I think we're showing our age though, no one under 90 has seen it.
Yes, the BMW E82 1 series finally got mentioned. Yes out of the box, the car had so much understeer, that it felt like a FWD car stock, hence why those who were surveyed said they didn't know. Once one swaps M3 E9X suspension arms, camber plates, square tires setup, the car is a lot more pointy, & a proper alignment, It's a great chassis for part bin swaps. Plus last of the hydraulic steering, small shortest WB, 4 seats. Finding one with low option, no sunroof, manual seats, no nav is 3100 lbs in NA N52 128i guise. Enjoyed the episode, I do find the Mustang especially 2005 onwards, got a lot heavier. Latest being close to 4K lbs...
Great show as always and I'm 100% behind the new editing for the videos; it's absolutely hilarious!
My husband is an avid watcher of your show!
Would love to k own what you think his car collection says about him:
Daily drivers: Ram 2500 4x4 (we live in Texas) and 2018 Audi A8
Collectors:
‘20 GT 350
‘69 Buick GS400 convertible
‘72 Chevy K5 Blazer
‘82 Jeep Scrambler
Thanks so much for keeping my husband entertained!!
goooooooooood!! thank you for the inserts 🥰
The 4.2L (4163cc) V8 in the B8.5 RS5 made 450hp naturally aspirated.
They're not cross plane crank tho right?
Is probably just me but in the last 2 episodes the audio sounds very low 😢 Thank You for the content love it
It's not just you. I have to turn the audio way up in comparison to other content on youtube. I accidentally clicked on a Shmee video after this and it damn near blew out my windows.
13:05 I have one of those day/night rear view mirrors in my 1972 F100. I always wondered where it came from, because it is definitely not a truck mirror. Now I know!
Craig’s vehicles, including his Foxbody, are rolling advertising for Hooker Blackheart exhaust. Plus, he builds them right.
Try a 63-64 Fairlane 500 Coupe Derek… right in the middle, although benefit of mustang/falcon based cars is all the k members and retromod suspension bits bolt on them.
Very fun history of the Mustang. I didnt get into mustang until the boss and its been a great time!
Im glad Jason likes the foxbody for the same reasons I do. Incredible sound & response
Five Point Slow.
6:43 Jason looks like King Kong clutching Vina Fay Wray in preparation for the assent up the Empire State Building. 😂❤ I always look forward to these episodes. Thanks for the toy cars for the foreground. Makes me feel like you love us.
Restoring a 63.5 galaxie 500 with my dad. That car is gorgeous!
Bank a shitload of RNG or Q&A. Love all your content! Even the Bronco and Land Rover videos!
I've got a 3 door hatchback 1 series. M140i to be precise, it's fucking brilliant. Manual, silly fast with its turbo six, short wheel base, it's so good as a daily, and now it's getting cold out in the British Autumn its a right handful (which I like). Shame that it's been replaced with an AWD Golf R copy though, not interested in that, I'll be keeping mine for a while.
Love this episode and can't wait to see your Mustang Icons. As for your comment about 100hp per litre, don't forget about the S197 GT500, which was 114hp/L.
Supercharged!
@@Dtamscott DOH! Silly me! I stand very much corrected.
I nearly lost my motor on my GT350, but that was due to the Ford technician not torquing the filter correctly. The vibrations from the motor make proper torquing of the oil filter super critical on the GT350sade before Feb 2017, they switched to a canister style filter after. Additionally, the motors all burn oil and I suspect that a lot of owners do not monitor the oil level closely.
For a very short time in high school I had a 78 mustang Ghia, green with the half vinyl top. Despite having a “5.0”, it was miserably slow and could only brake the tires loose on gravel or snow. Only caught on fire once and after a few weeks of abuse the old C4 thankfully decided to retire.
I had a 65 Mustang Fastback and Convertible at the same time. The Convertible was a mostly stock survivor with a slightly tuned 289, nice sounding exhaust, and an auto. The Fastback was a completely rebuilt and made much closer, and in some ways better than, a GT350. I loved hammering though the 4 speed with 400+ hp and it was beautiful but at times getting in the Convertible, putting it and drive, and go was just a magical experience! I had a 2020 GT500 Carbon Track Pack and yes the GT500 was amazing but give me either 65 any day. Although I'm not crazy about how the Coupes looked but the Fastback or Convertible 😍
I love the Q&A
Fox bodies do sound glorious. Drove a used notchback back in the late 90s, and soooo wanted it. However the high mileage and NOS setup scared me away.. 🤣
Great episode! Would love to have a series of videos walking through major platforms in car culture. Nissan Z, civics, supras, STIs, etc
The 5.0L gave a nice spoiler for the Probe GT making an appearance, which should be interesting. I'm not sure if the first generation Probe or second was destined to be the Mustang replacement. All I know is the second gen Probe GT was the car that got pre-teen me into backroad chasing.
My brother had one and would take me out for quick blasts (even got to drive it once). Lord all mighty, the sound of the VRIS working with a K&N cone was glorious. His girlfriend at the time had a 2000 Mustang GT coupe at the time-- the Probe put it to shame in response and cornering... though I have no idea how much he actually did to his car, and he's not around to ask. For the record, both were automatics, and again, tweenaged nostalgia.
edit: Lightly touched on here.
BOTH generations! Everyone recounts the first-generation Probe nearly becoming the Mustang, but when Ford dumped a bunch of SN95 design renderings online in the wind-up for the Mustang's 50th, it inadvertently revealed it resumed contemplating a FWD Mustang - including one based off Escort underpinnings - well after it already dodged the PR bullet with the first-gen Probe.
For what it's worth, I really liked the Bronco episode
Thank you!
To Derek's point about the SN95 Cobra sprouting IRS, Peter Brock (of Holden racing driver fame) also tried that when developing his Holden Dealer Team performance version of the VL Commodore. This led to a falling out between Brock and Holden, as they couldn't certify the new suspension setup for the Australian Design Rules. HDT was the de-facto in house Holden tuner up to this point, and was then replaced by Holden Special Vehicles.
Oh, and he also tried to put a box of rocks, known as the Energy Polariser, into those VLs.
Interesting theory about the dual throttle body, dual plenum on the Dark Horse maybe paving the way for another implementation of a flat plane crank. So yes, that way you could have the UDDU crank throw pattern and then firing order like Ferrari flat plane V8s. But the bigger - biggest I could say - problem with the Coyote architecture using a FPC is that the stroke is too long to get the desired displacement of 5.0 or 5.2 or 5.4 liters. Maximum bore in the Coyote, due to bore spacing of the block, is 95mm. That means the stroke must be 93 to 99 mm to achieve 5.2 to 5.5 liters total displacement. Flat plane crank secondary vibrations are intolerable from a longevity and durability perspective when the stoke is longer than about 80mm. The Chevy LT6 FPC V8 in the Z06 Vette has a bore of 104.25mm and stoke of 80mm to get its 5.5 liters. The engineers at Ford and everywhere else good know this hard fact of FPC vibrations which is why Coyote based racing engines (note the cross plane crank in the Mustang GT4) all use cross plane cranks for durability. Let’s hope the GM LT6 is a success and any future Ford FPC engine will be designed with a short(er) stroke.
Please put the clocks back in but with different time zones and have them out of sync! Just the mess with the fans 🎉
Regarding the use of the rigid year axle, I remember that Mercedes spent more on the development of the rear suspension of the 190E than the Australian Ford spent on the whole contemporary Ford Falcon car.
I bought an AE 86 Corolla for 11400.00 dollars. My Army reserve buddy’s all had rice racer bikes. 4 of us in the car
And I’d rev it to 7000 and pop the clutch and off we went.
Huggie my friend ordered the
Plain Jane Fox body 5.0 w/ 308
gears and he did the same to me. The goddamn torque in that car. As he was chirping third, I understood the difference between torque and horsepower. The Toyota AE86
Was the best revvving and handling car I’ve ever owned.
But that plain Jane 5.0 unbelievable sleeper.
It's about godamn time Low Budget Adam Sandler discovered the Fox body, now find and 86-88 turbo Fox body with "high boost", sticky tires and a decent suspension for reference. I'd bet money Randy Pobst can spank any combination of V8 Fox with a massaged SVO turbo around the track or M3 for that matter. PS IMHO the 98-04 4v V8 was Fords best sounding V8s engine ever ie: see 98-04 Cobra, Mach1, Maruader.
Loving the ep so far, but at 23:55 what about that vw parati hiding among the horses???
1. Dig the fun new edits, not over-the-top, still entertaining. Solid balance.
2. Anyone who didn't watch the Bronco Raptor episode should, because I remember *actually* laughing out loud at parts of it.
3. Love the desk props. Don't need to be surrounded by cars when talking about them, go for the setting with better audio quality. Those of us who are usually listening and not watching appreciate it. Can't wait to see what sort of grotesque hilarity or easter eggs Cammisa creates with set-up scenes of that.
Aah i was hoping for some gt350R thoughts as I’ve always thought it was so lovely
I love that Derek's t shirt says turd at some angles
Finally some love for the 2nd generation Probe lol
Bring back the clocks !
Lol I never cared about the clock, but I enjoy listening to hours of these episodes. Longer episodes wouldn’t hurt - but not everyone drives hours and has nothing to listen to, like I do.
The GT350R has to be my favorite Mustang ever. If they make an even better version on the S650 I'm going to lose my mind.
I remember Matt Farah's Foxbody he had built, shame he got rid of it, it was super cool, similar style to that one! He should buy it back, I'm sure he can swing it! xD
IIRC, he's talked about it post-sale on his podcast. He said it got to a point where it was just too nice, too built to use on a daily basis. He started worrying about resale value and depreciating all the parts and labor that went into the build, and just decided it was better to cash out rather than sit on a depreciating asset. That's the smart move if you can't see yourself owning something forever.
It was re-sold for $35,000 on bringatrailer a couple years ago
The editing is hilarious. I wasn't paying attention to the video for the last episode but it was spot on here. Also, Jason, you're right about the here nor there thing. Here is another one for you - can someone actually be consistently inconsistent?
Haha the Ford Falcon (together with the Holden Commodore) _defined_ the 'large family car' segment in Australia for decades. The thought that it is a small car is honestly very shocking.
The fact even you guys commented on how great the Boss 302 was...maaaaaan. I will say this about the Ecoboost Mustang, I saw one parked next to an A4 and for similar sizing I get smiles out of it than another dour fucking Eurobox. There's a reason why Top Gear always thought they were borderline sub-zero, it's the one icon that's deserving to be called an icon because the idea of it is preserved. Curious how good a S550 Mach 1 would be, I'd get a S197 Coyote if I had the money. Really think I need one in my life :)
Loved this episode!
Can you please cover transaxle Porsches?
@51:50 : Looks like we need a dedicated Pirelli episode.
I must argue one point, Jason; when you said the GT500 burns 900hp of fuel, you're on the right track, but you haven't reached your destination. Even the most thermally efficient ICE units only achieve 30-33% thermal efficiency. At 33% thermal efficiency, a 500hp engine is producing twice that figure in heat which must be rejected.
Accordingly, that 760bhp engine is probably burning as much as 2,200 - 2,500bhp of fuel in total. Good thing there's a TON of energy in gasoline!
Jason, I couldn't recommend a Foxbody mustang more. If you got one it would add a bit of .. diversity to your collection. I had one in high school, it was full of rust, worth $2000, and while it didn't buy me any popularity or clout (couldn't care less), it was an insane introduction to classic car ownership and general reckless automotive behavior. I totally agree that the one thing that kept me coming back and why I miss it now was that SOUND. Those old windsor V8's had no business sounding that good and I'll eventually have another one someday, I hope you follow your impulses and buy one, you won't regret it!
I am of the Fox body era (graduated 92) and though I had a Camaro I love the Fox Body. My wife, who is 11 years younger than me, can't stand them so it was funny to hear you say the other girl said the same thing. I would love a beautiful notch back 5.0 with a Coyote swap right now.
Was there a camera upgrade? Everything looks more...crisp. And open a PO box or something so I can send some framed car pieces to hang on the wall. I also agree that the background needs more cars.
Galaxie in NASCAR form is such a cool car- especially with a spicy 427
I wonder if alot of the shifting issues are clutch/clutch hydraulic system related.
I think the MG ZT had both fwd and rwd with both transverse and longitudinal engines.
A new Shelby GT350 sounds promising
Jason, you silly goose! The new Z06 has a 5.5 Liter Cross Plane Crank V8 with 670 HP!!!
No it's flat plane
1:43 scale is the best!
I'd collect 1:18 if I could justify the space and cost. When I first got a couple quality 1:43's I wanted to throw every 1:64 scale thing I owned away.
My favorite is 1:66.
41:15 DTS’ “this math ain’t mathing” face
Please better audio! More compression, more limiting!
Funny to hear all this,always have had a Mustang in my life, still have my Grandfather’s 66 that I grew up in, fell into working for BMW service for last 14 years & each have unique experiences, have many of each. My 2 favorites are my 13 GT 500 and my 02 M Roadster. BMW missed the opportunity though if they would have had E93 V8 in the Z3M that would have been the ultimate combination, power/sound/feel. It would have been the perfect European Cobra. The sounds on the E93 are the best European V8 there is. Would have been nice to match my Superformance Cobra/Roush 8 stack engine. On a side note there was a Granada H/O that had the High output 302 engine with a five speed and limited slip differential that actually smoked most cars out there including many of the mustangs depending on the gearing that was set up you could run a 410 gear and with the five speed really still drive it nicely on the highway. Om the rear differentials other part is they already had an IRS differential set up from the 03 and 04 terminator cobras I wish they would’ve transferred that into the later platforms development shouldn’t have not been $5000. Great show Thank You!
Y’all messing with my Monday routine by not putting them up on Apple Podcasts on time
Lol valid complaint point
Wait what? Should have gone live at exactly the same time!
If you could increase your audio volume that'd be great
Wait…. You skipped from Mustang 2 to Fox Body? What about the Mach 1? I agree with DTS, I’d rather have a Galaxie.
There's power choking emissions carbon traps in the intake tubes of the new Coyote. They had to go dual throttle bodies to get flow back.
Never even noticed there was a clock in the background, let alone 2... 🙃
omg It has been the first time I know some car that they not (s2000 is in the group of cars with engines hitting the 100 hp per liter) and I am yelling to the screen since they not named. how fun show.
Never saw the Mustang as a sports-car but a GT one - there's a difference between them. For the open American roads, a convertible automatic Mustang makes a lot of sense which explains the success of the 1st generation and not because it was suppose to be a sports-car.
P. S.: got tempted to try a S197 Boss 302...🤔
Love how the addition of a legit GT3 class, in top tier endurance racing, has affected all the models involved.
Good point.
If Mustang (as a rwd v8 "sports car") is doomed, I hope Ford has the insight to consider spinning it off into its own brand (ala Ram) and let it be a more boutique thing, not (as) subject to larger corporate and governmental goals and limitations. This might drive pricing up, but honestly, it was already getting pretty pricey, so not sure it'll hurt for it as much.
Glad you talked out how you felt about the steering. I trust both Throttle house and your opinion so it's interesting when different outlets that are both authorities come to different conclusions on dynamics. I wonder how much the crappy Perellis they put on the GT performance affected Thomas' opinion of it. From the sound of it, quite a bit. Ford should not be selling a GT performance model with such a woeful tire.
1:01:50 New gen 4 coyote gets two throttle bodies going into one plenum not two plenums. Am I right or wrong?
Having a hard time to accept what Jason said that the 5.0 Fox Body Mustang outhandled the E30 BMW M3; don't remember seen any Mustang at the time winning Touring car races... 🤔
MG Rover is the only car company I can think of that ever came close to offering a single model or platform with FWD, RWD, and AWD. The basic Rover 75 & MG ZT’s were transverse FWD, later on augmented by a 4.6 V8 version (namely MG ZT 260 and Rover 75 V8). There was an AWD version based on the transverse FWD car in the works, but it got shitcanned before it could ever reach production.
MG ZT is offered in FwD and rear wheel drive but not AWD, not quite hitting all the marks of the transit but strange nonetheless.
I think that’s not even that strange in the van world. Sprinter and Crafter can be a RWD, AWD or FWD as well. MG ZT might be the only car that got RWD while in production though, which is really weird
In Italy we call it "otorinolaringoiatra"
Jason. You said you wouldn't go into the Pirelli's... Would you please? I've never heard your knowledge, at length, about tires. Tire episode!
The Trofeo RS delaminated and damaged the fender liner after one small burnout. I believe the Accelerator Home and Shmoo had similar issues.
So how many Lucids did y'all help lease??
Not a clue!
@@JasonCammisa do you feel like car advertising works well for enthusiast? Or are viewers of most automotive content on RUclips already so well informed?
I rather like the getrag. My s197 has the first gen getrag. I love it.
Wow, you guys didn't even mention the coolest car in the video, the VW Fox wagon 😂😂😂
P.S.: missed opportunity to drag race the Ford Probe against the VW Fox wagon, the only two FWD cars in the video... 😁
So the Audi TT is surprisingly similar to the original Mustang in the idea of being a pretty sports-ish car?
I can't believe Jason didn't cover the Mustang 2 King Cobra. You never see them anymore, you never see any Mustang 2s. I see 1st gen Mustangs all the time. I guess no one saved the Mustang 2's
Weren’t all old muscle cars riding on regular platforms?
Jason you look like you were have a mental breakdown with that stuff running down your face😅,I know that's not case, but looking forward to the Dark Hore video🤠
The most desirable Mustang II is one that has been run through a crusher.
Ive seen other videos if craigs mustang. The sound is fucking orgasmic! He has an F100 that sounds the same too.
That's an International Scout-ish looking toy.
Missed opportunity to say “That was a press car that was thoroughly pressed”
First gen Mustangs are all kind of hilarious and lovely and not a sports car.
I drove convertible with 289-2V and 4 speed and you REALLY don't want more power. The convertible chassis is sooo flimsy. People not used to old cars really cannot imagine how "fun" is the handling. It pretty much selects its own line and you only correct it slightly by turning the steering wheel with 2 fingers. The whole chassis shimmies and shakes on twisty roads while front and rear do their own things.
It is amazing experience and a lot of fun but definitely not a sports car. And somewhat alarming to people that never drove in something pre-1980.
Huh? Jason... do you know about the GTD?
Any plans to launch Hagerty Drivers Club in the UK ?
That is an interesting idea
Recently picked up an s550 gt to replace my s2000, it’s significantly more fun in 95% of situations. Im really disappointed with the direction ford took the “s650” facelift, and the fact that it will likely never be supported by the aftermarket the way that pre 2020 cars are. Im hoping the value of my car reflects that while I wait patiently for e92s to settle. Also, if you listen to what the leading calibrators and builders say about these cars, the tr3160 does not hold up to boost nearly as well as the mt82.
Why would the S650 get less aftermarket? It's gonna have the same aftermarket. Same engine same Body.
@@ravenwing199 same reason the capabilities of the 2020+ gt500 havent been fully supported. Now not everyone wants the support im talking about but i would not have bought my s550 if it wasnt for what lund and fathouse do with them.