Learning About Tires Leads to Rallycross - Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 126
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- Опубликовано: 24 дек 2023
- It's a special bonus holiday episode of the Carmudgeon Show! The boys meant to do an episode teaching you everything you need to know about tires.
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This episode of “The Carmudgeon Show” is presented by Valentine One Radar Locator: Find radar before it finds you! bit.ly/Valentine1_Hagerty
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The tire conversation lead to fun experiences involving different brands - and Derek discovering Rallycross, which is like autocross, but filthy.
Jason has lots of experience pushing different tires to the limit - and Michelins seem to hold up to whatever he throws at them. Pirellis? Less so. The biggest surprise lately is Vredestein Tires, which Jason has been experiencing recently.
A Bridgestone fan for years, Jason recently placed third overall in a 24 Hours of Lemons race using Bridgestone's new Potenza RE-71RS. They wore well, but gripped fantastically in the dry and (especially) in the wet.
Things the boys discussed: what to know about tire size, ratings, and categories. Pirelli CN36s look great, but are they better than Michelin's XWS repops, manufactured by Coker?
And what's with Jason's Hankook experience? Who is Petlas? Why is Dunlop's Direzza ZII great, and why can't Yokohama make a round s.Drive?
Also - some discussion of efficiency on Jason's Volkswagen e-Golf, which dropped by nearly 40% after switching from the factory Bridgestones to larger, far more aggressive Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. The plan is to try out Vredestein Quatracs over the rainy season to see if he can get some range back.
Don't forget - the only thing touching the ground is your tires. Choose appropriately! 
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![DRAGON BALL: Sparking! ZERO - Master and Apprentice Trailer [BUDOKAI TENKAICHI Series]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wNf7A4rHczc/mqdefault.jpg)
the fact that Jason can hit that note at all is pretty impressive...merry xmas folks!
Oh my... The pop-up graphics ... We need more Derek's head info graphics for academic language ... And a Jason one for translation of insulting slang
Laughed so hard when I saw it too! +1 vote for both suggestions!
Kudos to the editor...I laughed for like 10 mins at the bee...
I was not expecting a show today. What a delightful Christmas present!
I've always said exactly what Derek said around 20:10, that if I see Michelins on a car for sale, I know it's been taken care of. Contrast that to seeing Linglong's on a BMW with replica wheels😢
So many performance or enthusiast cars for sale with cheap Chinese tyres and knockoff rims which will be heavier and weaker than OEM in most cases
Me too - I reluctantly purchased a car on Runway tyres once, but as soon as I see four matching branded tyres on the relative shit boxes I normally buy, this impresses me and seals the deal 😂
I like how the Michelin Pilot Sport timeline roughly matches the PlayStation one, PS5 is the current model in both cases but the older releases also line up pretty well
Edit: as an Italian you have full permission to shit on Pirelli, they're Chinese-owned anyway
loving the subtle edits from Jake just as much as entire show
I love these single-ish topic episodes that feel like a deep dive. You get a great sense of how deep the hosts passion and knowledge run within them
Rallycross in Europe is a bit different, it's on mixed track with tarmac and gravel. It's really spectacular sport, you can also look at 80s and 90s videos with old B-group rally cars driving hard and bashing each other. Really cool stuff.
Yes please do another entire show about tires, selection, sizing, etc...even though this was mostly about it, I think there is a lot to be learnt by many about wheels and tires...they are all that connect us to the road
Okay the singing was so worth it.
Tires and Rallycross - A most excellent podcast indeed.
Came for the Xmas tunes. Thank u. Great show
lol right
Merry Carmudge-mas yeay!
Video editing is on point. But now I have to keep an eye on the screen while listening.
I am glad singing duo is back also Merry Christmas everyone
Love the rallycross talk. It really is fun, I won my local reigon's AWD modified class points standings in my daily driver Outback XT that crossed over to 200k miles during the season.
Love You Guys....singing right along with Winter Wonderland!!!🎉❤
Seeing 4 brand new Michelins on the salvage title Prius I got as a boring daily definitely made me feel more confident about my purchase, as did the 10,000 post rebuild miles the car had on it.
I used to run a 1991 318i as a rallycross car (in between different kinds of subaru imprezas), they are fantastic for that task, so, it sounds like Jason already has a car that can easily be updated to rallycross. It was probably my favorite rallycross car ever.
Songs? A great Xmas gift! 🎉
Mariah😂🎉
I haven't finished listening to the podcast but so far you guys remind me of the old men in hats who walked into our tire stores asking how much to trade tires on their new Camry for Michelins. You can get the equal or better than Michelin from one brand/model or another for less money. Don't get me wrong, it's a good brand but they're not the be all end all. And yes, I knew about Vredestein in the late 80s + Avon Gislaved and Nokian. I agree with you guys 90% of the time...except when you talk tires. (I was an owner of 5 retail Tire shops and a distribution network to most dealers for 15+ years in Canada. Also was Certified specialist for Michelin, Bridgestone, Goodyear, Continental, Toyo, TIA and more). Let me know if you need info for an episode on tires...
Maximum Death Risk, starring Adam Sandler as Jason Cammisa and Giancarlo Esposito as Derek Tam-Scott.
I *NEED* this to happen.
Thank you for the Pirelli discussion. I recently bought a 2nd generation Vanquish and I don't like the P-Zeros at all. Can't wait to replace them with PS4S's. Which are somehow LESS expensive than the Pirellis.
This was a great and informative episode. I feel the need to plug the Continental Pure Contact LS All Season Tires for a Honda Civic or equivalent. Consumer Reports gives them a max score for lateral grip despite being relatively cheap hardwearing all seasons. I find they're a great year round option in my rarely snowy part of the North East. Amazing wet grip, perfect in spring and fall, more than enough grip for summer backroads, and they're fun for low speed sliding in light snow!
Thank you for the surprise show. Best Christmas present ever!
Michelin is known for doing “beyond limit” testing. Would explain why they don’t explode when doing smoky slides and burnouts.
As a tire guru/enthusiast, I really enjoyed this episode. I'm glad the tire treadwear rating system was brought up because in the beginning when you were comparing the Bridgestone 540 treadwear tires to the MPS4S 300 treadwear, the latter part where the tire treadwear ratings aren't officially certified was proven with the comparison earlier.
If you guys do have a more in depth episode, care to talk about the PS4S against the newest Continental Extreme Contact Sport 02? I'm sure a lot on this channel would be intrigued by your thoughts.
No love for Avon? CR6ZZ are the best classic-sized tire I've found
Pretty nice topic Jason and Derek! Thanks! ❤️
I used to be enamored with Rallycross as a kid, here's it's mixed surface so the drivers' skills (and LOTS of horsepower) shine + there's some crazy builds and lots of contact. It's a pity that it's not more popular. Have you seen ice racing btw? Even more spectacular and must be fun to drive.
That wa sthe best and funnies beggining of a video that i have ever wached 😃😃
WELL: i found you guys today. didnt know chitt about Derek until last weeks 21 page appliance truck rebuttal @ Matt's and still have zero clue about Derek. Watched today your last 3 videos ... its impressive all the cars you 2 own but whats even more impressive is the lil details and facts you 2 remember about anything related to cars ( like tire sizes specs aso ) .... its a must subscribe for me after hearing Daimler 6.9 , Mk1 and Scirocco ! only 8 more year bf i can bring my Type 3 Scirocco R permanently to the US .
Had vredestein quatracs on my NC Miata, really lovely! But they did overheat once and lost half their grip. But still almost perfect
Is the fire video featuring Derek's Miura?
Commenting for the algorithm. Love you guys and Merry Christmas! 🎁🎄
I just put 4 Vredestein tires on my SL500. Thought the all season would be okay for an occasional snow outing in Idaho. Didn’t realize I would be driving it in the snow at all but when pressed into service due to my truck breaking down I was amazed at how well the car coped with snow. Almost as good as the W124 with Blizzaks. I’m sold on these tires as well. Last time I used this brand was in the 90’s. I’m also a Bridgestone guy because when I used to install them they hardly required any balance weights.
The hound dogs were howling during that intro. Woof 🐕🎵🎁
😂❤🏁
Ho Ho Ho, and Merry Merry to all!
I've been using Vredestein as a winter tire for some years now and I love them. Got the Wintrac Pro in 225/40 18 on my GT86 and the same size and tire on my girlfriend's Mazda 3 because I have no complaints on my car.
The edit this episode is amazing 😂
Love to hear about tires. I agree with Jason that the Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ is an excellent tire because of the gentle break at the limit. PS4's are indeed available in 17" sizes, at least the 225/45R17 is. I'll be going to them if my AS3's ever give up, which they show no sign of doing, even after many miles of enthusiastic use.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!
RWD Rallycross is the best! I've RXed a 2ZZ MR2 Spyder and it was some of the most vehicular fun I've had
PS4, PS4S are amazing. Duller steering feel but they even work is light slush (snow)
I just got a set of sprint + for my 911 but in 195/60 15s. Pretty sure they have the 205 version as well.
That’s a nice Christmas present
Who'd of thought an entire episode on tires would have me so captivated! Tires have actually played such a large role in my experiences with various cars over the years. Once had a used Golf Sportwagen 1.8TSI which had brand new Kelly A/S (a Goodyear-group brand) on it at time of purchase (late spring). They are every used car department in Calgary's fave tire due to the very-low price and quiet, comfortable ride for test drives. However, they have little grip, particularly in the rain, and vanish into thin air if you drive aggressively. By the time fall rolled around, and after an APR tune, the front tires on the Golf were TOAST from spinning so much. Another horrendous tire is the Toyo A36, which Mazda has put on their 19" CX5 wheels from factory for years. I knew they had garbage tread wear simply from interacting with them, but it wasn't until I owned a new CX-5 myself and found out they have next to ZERO wet-weather grip or hydroplaning resistance, even when new. It is a genuinely dangerous tire that anyone could still go out and purchase if they were unlucky enough to choose them. Finally, not surprised about the issues Jason had with his Hankook Kinergy tires; I had them factory equipped on another 1.8T Sportwagen (4Motion this time) and they were 💩.
Favourite tires from personal experience: Almost every Michelin Pilot AS or 4S, really good experience with General Tires for winter (a Continental brand), and the Goodyear Eagle Sport A/S.
When you do the next show about tires, please speak to whether people in coastal California generally and Bay area specifically need winter tires or if all seasons will do the job? Also if winter tires are recommended but not needed in such climate types should we be considering "all weather tires" which are supposedly better for colder weather than all seasons which are technically 3 season tires I have been told...
I've never heard of the Chevy sprint turbo before.
Until they were discontinued a couple years ago, the RE-71R was pretty much the go-to autocross tire (for classes that require 200+ treadwear). They wore like 140 treadwear tires though.
Presently, the RE-71RS, A052 (Yokohama), and RT660 (Falken) seem to be the top options, with no obvious champion so far, as far as dry performance. The 660s generally win on price though.
Coolest tires: mid-80’s Pirelli P6. And P7 and even P8.. For us old farts. 😊
Stiff cars (like the Z4M Coupe) can really point stuff out too. Swapping from Michelin SuperSport to Pilot Sport 4S really pointed out how much softer the 4S sidewalls are. Almost wobbly compared to the track-oriented SS.
As someone with old cars that have tiny wheels, having Vredestein available in North America has been such a blessing. I mean they're still a pain in the ass to get in Canada, but they've been worth the spend. I've got the Quatrac all weathers (3 peak rated) on my AE111 Levin and bought a set of Sprint + tires for my Z31 this summer. Sadly the Sprints aren't available in the OEM size, so the sidewall is a bit smaller (OEM size is a 215/60R15, all they sell is a 215/50R15). BUT I did a 2000+ kilometers roadtrip with them on the Z and the grip they provided on tight BC roads blew me away. The return drive home was during a rain storm, but thanks to Vredestein priortizing wet weather performance, it was a comfortable 8 hours in the pouring rain. And the Quatracs are also a wonderful all around tire.
Merry Christmas, Carmudgeons!
Ha! The RE71 is my favourite tyre too. 😁
I _think_ the Porsche 959 was the first car to be soecced from factory with the RE71.
At the other end of the automotive spectrum, was my first car in '87: a '68 KE11 Corolla. 😅
It had been flopping around on original dampers, and very old 155/78/12 tyres on 4" rims.
On went KYB dampers and _185/60/13 RE71_ rubber.
The amount of 'special order' McDonalds wages that I blew on those (albeit, fun producing) consumables, could've seen me put a deposit on a house. 🤦♂️
It’s a Christmas miracle😭😭
Michelin Pilot Exalto 2 "Young timer" are available in the 80s/90s French shitbox sizes and use PS4 construction AFAIK. They have been brilliant on my 306 GTI6
Watch out for one thing with the quadtracks, availability. I have them on one of my cars and the particular size has been out of stock on tie rack for 4 weeks. I ran over a nail and I've been waiting for a new tire for three of those weeks. They tell me it could be 6 before it's back in stock. They're also completely sold out locally.
On tire choice, Nik from BOM called cheap tires ditch finders.
Falken tires. Best bang for ya buck
I wish there was a better resource for vintage cars out there that want to change wheels.
Conti has made big strides lately in the sport tire segment. I have the DWS06+ on my daily and the ECS-02 on my weekend car. Great bang for buck and get you 99% of the Michelin line for 20% less cost.
Waiting for someone to comment about the DWS. I hated them. Always flatspotting and never could hold balance. More affordable but no contest for RE980 or 4AS.
HA! That fuckin intro was gold
The Bridgestone tires were on the Porsche 959, weren't they? With the Denloc system.
My Veloster N came with Pirelli PZ4 tires and I replaced them with Michelin PS4S and they are not even in the same class. The PS4S is soo much better in every way.
In the Michelin tire hierarchy S is Sport. Currently it's PSAS4 > PS4 now PS5 (touring compound) > PS4S / PSS5 (new replacement for the 4S) > Cup2 > Cup2R. To Derek, Smallest 4S is 215/45/17. Available in North America but not Europe (I have them on my ND2)
Yeah PS5 are weird in they they're kind of considered less sporty than PS4 in some ways - even if it's a Touring Compound they still grip pretty well
100% I judge a used car by the tires. I've even walked away from a sale on a dealer lot, and told them why, when they put crap tires on a $50k year old SUV.
Hm, here in europe the PS3 and the PSS are two different tyres.
I only know that because they both are OEM tyres for a car i own.
And when looking at Michelins european HP looking for tyres in the correct dimension for my car, they looked different in tread and were shown as different tyres.
As i understand it the PS3 is the predecessor of the PS4 and the PSS of the PS4S.
-To the Pirelli part. In my 25+ years of driving i have experienced 4 or 5 different sets of Pirelli tyres. (2 on cars i bought and two on a company car where i work) and the conclusion to me is, if there's another good tyre available i probably go for that instead.
I had one set of summer tyres that lost tread blocks while not even 4 years old. One set that was 4 years old and drove like wooden wheels. (both came with the used cars i bought and i replace them. The tread block loosing one with a Dunlop that turned out rto fit way better to the car and my driving style of it and the second one with a set of Michelin Latitude 3 which were a change like night and day. Way more quiet, way more comfortable, huge reserves of grip, huge reserves in hydroplaning and now more than 4 yeras later they seem to not even have worn as much as some other tyres i had in a year...)
And on the company cars the pirellis were winter tyres. Nothing boad i can say about their grip in winter conditions, but like the summer pirellis on my own cars, they were anoyingly noisy. (compared to other winter tyres of reputable manufacturers i have used)
My wors encounter with tyres were a set of summer tyres from Falken around 2002 or so. They were like super glue in the first summer, and in the second summer season they were incredibly loud and stopped gripping in the wet. Well let me phrase it differently: what you always talk about, the way they change from grip to no grip. And these Falkens switched from "like everybody else" to 1 or 0 with no transition at all.
Avoided Falken since. (But others seem to have good experiences with their tyres, and that's now over 20 years ago)
Good to hear i am not the only one with issued in getting tyres in the size of my car as there's nothing really available.
Due to the first owner ticking almost all boxes including the "speedlimit lift" by law i need to fit summer tyres that are rated for 300 kph. (our limit on the highway is 130 kph, but germany is a neighbouring country...)
Initially there were the Conti SC3, the Michelin PS3 and the Michelin PSS. Conti has stopped making tyres in the size i need.
And the tyre shops around me never had the Michelins, so i am running the Conti ones currently.
But next time i won't be able to get the Contis, so i either need Michelin to still make them (sadly they never bothered to make the PS4 or PS4S in the sizes i need) or as i found out there's then only Hankook or Pirelli doing that sizes...
I run a 195/50/15 on my BMW 2002. I love the S-Drive, but those are superseded as Jason mentioned. The RE71RS is not available in a 15 and the Vredestein Sprint + is not available in my size. So…I guess it’s the Fleva or Dunlops?
early @min 20-ish...but, come on, show some love on the asym 5 and 6. very very good tires.
I'm kinda surprised Michelin PS A/S 4 aren't like, the default tire of choice for enthusiast driving if there's a size that fits your car.
Great Christmas present, guys! Loved it.
My only request is to bring on both the Throttle House guys over for a few episodes, pls. Would love that crossover.
Also, here's a question (a weird one, ig):
I've heard from multiple sources that it is not possible to slide a GT350R. Why? PS feel free to explain it from an engineering perspective if you have to.
On my daily (F20 125m), I run PS4’s on the front and P Zeroes on the rear. It’s hilarious. The PS4s front and rear made the car very nervous near the limit, and the breakaway was aggressive. The PZero has less grip, but the band of grip to slip is so wide you can take the piss with it. On the bikes, I hate Pirelli, they last a session of a track day. Instead I run Metzler RaceTecs. They’re a gift from heaven - I can slide the bike and take the piss with gravity.
I suggest trying the Continental Extreme Contact sport 02. They're a rain tire for many racing teams-- and they're fantastic. And I LOVE my DWS06+'s. Also, even my Kia Forte GT Manual came with PS4's from the factory-- but man they wore out in 18k miles..
You're complaining about 18k miles from an ultra-performance tyre?
Ask me how many miles I get from a set of Cup 2's on track..
@@dielaughing73 They were just the regular PS4, and it's a street car with 200hp. They should've lasted WAY longer. That INCLUDED getting winters on for a quarter of a year btw-- those tires lasted me a total of a year and a quarter.
@@thegirthquake8574 ...and they gave you the highest levels of grip and performance you can get in a street tyre for eighteen months, for a couple of hundred dollars a corner.
Tell me what other tyre gives you that degree of safety and peace of mind, in the wet and dry, for a cheaper overall cost of ownership.
If you didn't notice, this episode is all about how you need to spend a little more if you want the best rubber between you and disaster.
@@dielaughing73 My DWS06+'s give me similar levels of grip and WAY better water rejection for less money. And they're all-seasons. Been running them for nearly 20k miles and they're almost brand new-- and I'm NOT nice to these tires.
@@thegirthquake8574 OK good to know, I might give them a try
Oh shit your TV is burning😂. ☃️☃️☃️
Jason and Derek any thoughts on the PS4S vs the PS A/S? Do the all season give up a lot?
In Europe Michelin offers a Pilot Sport 3, not the super sport it is literally called sport 3, and its only available in 15 and 16 inch and is used by most hot hatch enthusiasts. Its been around for like 10 years by now.
My independent Porsche shop steered me away from PS4s a year ago when I decided to get new tires. They mentioned that recently Michelins quality control began to decline and they had to return a few sets. They steered me to Contis instead.
that can also be that the shop is incetivized. For tires, I don't trust anyone other than my own personal experience.
Vredisteins are my tire of choice for my Gen 1 Insight. They're half the price of the OEM tires, and the difference in efficiency is minimal. Too bad they're backordered...
I miss my w202 😢
Vredestein got bought by Apollo Tyres, who i believe are Indian, but they have factories in all sorts of places, so who knows.
Looks like MGB. Headlights are recessed.
I was NOT expecting Santa Baby lfmao
I completely understand Stewie not having any grip.
PS4s not available in 17 inches ( 18s and above ) ... so ... 17 always search for Goodyear F1 asymmetric 5/6 ;) under 17 ... tough job
27:15 - "fleva" (φλέβα) is the word for "vein" in Greek. Still nonsense on a tyre though! 😂
“It’s Christmas Day”
X Doubt ಠ_ಠ
I’ve heard enough episodes to know haha
I think a lot of people in the 70s and 80s were brought into the 'cult of personality' around Pirelli, for two reasons.
Firstly, the company went hard into Formula 1 (matching or surpassing the B'stone, Mich and Dunlop).
Also, the P6 and especially P7 models, were marketed _massively._
This may sound simplistic, but you could recognise Pirelli product.
Rather than waggly tread blocks, Pirelli's modernist straight lines stood out - especially when they were prominent under the back of the Countach posters. Every second bedroom wall of every second boy around the planet, had Pirelli product.
is nitto still a thing?
From my experience ecopias take minimal wheel weights to balance and have single digit road force feedback. That being said, they're incredibly average in a lot of other ways. Also complaints about the price. I'd try the weatherpeak bridgestones next jason (all weather tire with 700 treadwear)
80s/90s common tire sizes suck to get...most of the time its some basic touring tire or a race tire. Very little mid-range sporty tires. I need something that can see cold temps...not necessarily drive in snow if I can avoid it. I will drive if its 10degress out and no salt on the roads. I currently on my one car run 195/55-15 Kumho PA31...its ok but I want something more sporting...that is not a random off-brand.
@12:11 Cleeter?? Lol
Michelin just isn’t competitive in the super 200TW class. Cup 2 just isn’t competitive outside Porsche bro circles when Supercar 3 exists for like 3/4 the price and is better in like every way.
My only experience with Hankook is with their slicks, which are horrible lol.
Currently have Kuhmo V730 on my trackday M3. Absolutely loving them so far, even irrespective of their very cheap price.
Why did they name autocrossing on gravel by a name already used for another kind of motorsport?
India based Apollo tires bought Vredestein. I was not impressed with how badly they handled a warranty claim on a OE spacemaster folding sidewall spare tire. The four or so year old spacemaster was showing strange cracking in the rubber which looked like lots of tiny slits. It took weeks and multiple emails to get accusations of mis-handling or mis-mounting (the VW factory fitted spare tire) but no actual warranty support. Good luck to you if you ever have a problem with a Vredestein product. As far as I can tell Vredestein doesn't really warranty their OE spares within the new vehicle warranty period.
Thanks for mentioning Apollo being an indian company, till now i always thought they were a chinese company and never bothered to look it up.
Derek HYPHEN, how are those A008 on your Mum's 911? I heard they have ridiculously low grip? Is that true? My only other option for 245/45/16 and 225/50/16 is Pirelli P Zero Assimetrico... N5 and I am scared.
I thought rallycross was racing against each other
Jason: actual genius as per appearance on smoking tire
Also Jason: unhinged singing falsetto
Something to talk about could be the fact that "Truck" sized tires aren't required to have the UTQG rating. Like the trucks that are usualy used for construction and contractors everywhere dont require that rating. I feel like thats a little unsafe. How else do you know what you're buying. pretty silly imo
You obviously don't want to wreck your own LeMons car, but what happens if someone offers you seat time in their car and you wreck it? Do you pay for it, or do they set up a GoFundMe campaign?
#NOkooks
cyber
When getting tires from Costco, bring them just wheels, not the whole car.