911 S/T Review + Our Favorite Cars of 2023 - Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 125
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- Опубликовано: 17 дек 2023
- Jason drives the 2024 Porsche 911 S/T, the latest limited-production sports car from the Rennsport division of Porsche that makes the GT2, GT3, and GT4. And this leads to a discussion of our favorite drives of the year.
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The 2024 Porsche 911 S/T is the 992's version of the 991.1's 911R - the ultimate driver's car within the 911 lineup. A naturally aspirated, 9000-rpm, independent-throttle-body, 518-hp flat-six with a 6-speed manual.
It's limited-production, which is frustrating, but has convinced Jason that it's the best sports car on the market today. Or perhaps ever.
The discussion leads Jason Cammisa and Derek Hyphen to discuss their favorite drives of the year, including quick reviews of:
Rimac Nevera
Ford F-150 Raptor R
Lotus Emira
Toyota GR Corolla Morizo
Lancia Delta Integrale
Renault R5 Turbo Évolution
Ferrari 250 California Spider replice
Ferrari 246 Dino
Toyota GR Yaris Circuit
Audi RS2 Avant
Porsche 911 RS (964)
Porsche 911 GT2 (997)
Bentley Mulsanne EWB
Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II
Lucid Air Sapphire
...and of course a quick discussion of the politics surrounding Jason's review of the Tesla Cybertruck, including Matt Farah (The Smoking Tire) objections. [This was recorded before Jason and Matt recorded the TST Podcast to clear the air.]
The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network 
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![Our "Issue" With The Porsche 911 ST [S6, E44]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/J_cjFGCa2G8/mqdefault.jpg)
Do you guys understand there is something magical about a RUclips channel where people listen to the entire thing? Keep up the terrific work
It's my drive to work and back.. Love listening to carmudgeon
would love a christmas special episode with Santa Pobst
Agreed. They really should get Randy on here.
You're right! I'll talk to Randy and make sure he comes on next time he's local!
@@JasonCammisaor record with him on location when you’re at Willow!
maybe at your garage mahal ?
Yes this please and Happy Honda Days, Merry Christmas!
"I would sell everything. Well, not everything..." - I could almost hear Jason's head going "I wouldn't sell the Scirocco, and I can't sell the eGolf, and I can't sell the..." 🤣 it's always the same story
"Can't sell the Bitch Basket...."
“Gotta keep the Lotus, as a professional palate cleanser…”
Jake is such a great editor makes me laugh all the time especially with the “meh” bit that was gold but he is clearly younger
The edit when Jason was making engine/exhaust noises was low-key and actually better IMHO.
Genuinely the best editing in the Podcast space..
Having to commute from the door hole to the seat, love that line.
the editing on these recent shows has been top notch folks, keep it up
I find it slight muh....
26:23 - Gordon Murray would have something to say about that. The T50 will rev from idle to it's 12k redline in quarter of a second 😎
I really hope you guys understand the joy that this podcast brings to us. Listening to you guys talk about the purity of sports cars amidst the horsepower arms race of today is so refreshing.
I vote Camudgeon as the BEST time invested watching content on the interwebs for 2023 (or any year). Thanks gentlemen for a great year!
Talking about overprized mechanical stuff and wearing a campagnolo t-shirt is the icing on the cake 😅😂
Love having Jake pop in edits from time to time. Its not overpowering but does add to the carmudgeon show
1:33 "Just clap and shut up" 🤣
Off to a great start.
Message to Porsche: give one to Jason. He deserves it
The best vehicles are those with a clarity of purpose - what a great quote! Keep up the great works guys.
Is DTS also into high-end cycling? Love the Campagnolo t-shirt!
Campy also made wheels for Italian cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini etc... as well as group-sets for cycling.
Both! I have a bicycle with fully Campagnolo components and a car with Campagnolo wheels.
He speaks!
@@Dtamscott Love it! Is the bike a Colnago? I get the vibes that you've got a steel Master
@@Jkl158 Steel framed Bianchi
brother, don’t worry about a thing that cybertruck video was STUNNING visually, contextually, storyline, framing, lighting, composition, information entertainment … just EVERYTHING.
I have owned a dozen Porches but when I drove the 997 GT2 my heart broke. The one that got away.
Love this channel!! For those of us that are CAR enthusiasts you don't need to explain the reactions from ideologues.
It just dawned on me that these two are like the Odd Couple. Great chemistry and content.
Also thank you Jake your edits are wonderful!
Purity of purpose is exactly why I can never sell my s15 Silvia. 90’s Japan had a car for everything, no compromises needed
Man I enjoy you guys banter. Fun fun fun. Also I agree with the salvage title cars…I have two, BRZ and a MX5. Also a new 718 Spyder. Love the BRZ the best for daily fun commute.
Pre Christmas special!
This show makes my Monday’s more enjoyable!!
With the exception of the Taycan, the 911R (and now, the S/T) is the only modern Porsche I would consider buying. But I can't afford a half-million-dollar car.
...but trickle down maybe. Loved hearing about how Preuninger was secretly trying to chess match his way to developing his own 6 speed transmission!
Been waiting years to see some quality 190E Evo2 content. Looking forward to it.
Just got me an egolf and love, love it as my fun to drive toaster that cost almost zero to operate. Fast enough with tossable, predictable handling that makes me giggle when I push it. Its garage mate is a Mk7 R for speed when I "need" it. Wifey loves it so happy wifey .... Would love to hear how you're going to extend its shortish range. Any mods like springs or struts that would make it even more fun? Love your rants and reviews. Even if I could afford S/T or R I would spend the rest of my nest egg getting out of jail.
As always one of the few pods that speaks from the heart about driving all sorts of cars from humble to WTF.
Great episode!
Great job Jake!
The podcast of all podcasts.
Your intro is perfect. I wish all auto journalists would stop politicizing every single thing.
Glad Derek mentioned the 964 RS, that also is a car that I think would be perfect
Derrick seems like a guy you grab a 57 ingredient cocktail with…
@30:50 “I’m done… good bye” lmao!
I owned a first gen 86 for a while as my main daily car and I actually found it to be really usable! I put sets of tires in there (the seats come down) my big dog in that car everything.. the only thing that sucks is the engine isnt super efficient for what you get, it's bad at gas and not really good at feeling powerful. My Miata blows it out of the water for that, but I can't put anything in the ND :/
I agree. The back seats are also surprisingly usable as long as youre not transporting 6ft+ dudes.
I agree. The back seats are also surprisingly usable as long as youre not transporting 6ft+ dudes.
I agree. The back seats are also surprisingly usable as long as youre not transporting 6ft+ dudes.
I agree. The back seats are also surprisingly usable as long as youre not transporting 6ft+ dudes.
I agree. The back seats are also surprisingly usable as long as youre not transporting 6ft+ dudes.
I love your work. I loved your defense on The Smoking Tire. I wasn't expecting "I'm here to play a bit... The bit is I am the person this vehicle is intended for." To me that isn't what a journalist does. I expect your views, that is why I watch you. That said it isn't up to me to tell you how to do your job. And I love how you do your job, this just surprised me.
That list at the end sounds like a script for Gone is 60 Seconds 2! Get Nick on it!
About Porsche pricing: The US is not the only market GT3 are sold. In Europe there are no markups for new cars and the markups second hand are only around 10k. Porsche would sell much less cars worldwide when they make them 100k more expensive.
Yep, the US dealership model is very different, and it sucks for the consumer. That said, things aren't perfect in Europe. Friend in Germany wants a GT3 RS, and his dealer can't, by law, charge him more than the manufacturer price... but his dealer wants him to buy a bunch of other stuff (including a very expensive watch) before they'll give him an RS.
@@JasonCammisaA lost watch with good insurance goes a long way.
@@ALR74if he needs to only buy a watch, that's easy... ; 3 macans, 2 taycans, 1 cayenne and 2 turbos would be more of a problem. 😬
@@JasonCammisa given that the S/T requires a 12 month lease (ostensibly to stop flippers) some dealers weren’t sure they would be able to charge ADM… dealers in the US are shady too. I filled out 2 Special Order Contracts for the S/T, and put down two $5K refundable deposits, which should have secured me an allocation for the car. The first one I signed on 6/8, and was refunded 8/3 because, so I was told, “the dealership owner, Roger Penske, and his sons will be taking the allocations,” and the second was signed 8/25 and then I was told days after allocations were assigned to dealerships (11/4) that three 918 VIPs had initially passed on the S/T but were now taking an allocation, and I went from #1 on the list to not getting a car (the dealer said they only got 3)… turns out the GM just gave my build slot to a friend. The worst part was this happened so late that pretty much every other allocation was spoken for. I didn’t give up though, and called 110 out of the 197 dealers and heard 109 NOs, but finally, FINALLY heard one yes :) this is my absolute dream car. So excited to hear how much you loved the car!
In the UK the current course to a GT3 is spending over £400k over 2 years on non GT products. Higher spec means faster queue and PTS option. But this also means you get sold a Turbo as a stop gap. Hence 120 nearly used for sale at the moment having 10k dropped off the price every week as no one can get finance.
Keeping the fire hazard in mind, I wonder if somehow the next generation of the 991R/991 S/T would somehow get hydraulic steering back, with the same recipe as the current one (GT3 RS engine and most of it's body, 6 speed manual, barely any sound deadening and so on), then that could hopefully make it's way into the GT3 Touring, so it's even more experience
Next generation might be 993 since we’re on 992 right now. But with the electrification of cars it might be a whole new chassis design and no flat six.
@@jamaisvu2664 we already had 993. 994 doesn't exist yet, so that might be next, tho they did also go from 993 to 997, and then back to 991, so no idea what Porsche might call them
@@istvanlorinczi2817 oh yea! 😭apparently I forgot anything 911’s before 2005 existed lol! Who knows then perhaps we’ll get a 999 then
Derek, nice Campy shirt!
Way fun.
On the styling of the Ferrari 296, I see the comp with the Alfa 4C. But I also see a fair amount of 330P3/4 in the styling.
"I want your life". We all do when we see hyphen's instagram!
Derek, have you driven the 964 RS Clubsport/NGT?
Thank you for finally hearing Rimac pronounced correctly…
Any chance we might get a carmudgeon in what’s going on with Lucid?
Their financial situation? I don't think either of us is qualified to talk about that.
How does the S/T compare with the V12 Vantage S?
Re: Porsche gearing, I had a 6MT Cayenne GTS that had the most laughably short gearing you could imagine. 1st gear was good for about 15mph
I’ve always loved the podcast, but Jake’s inserts just make it so much better. They remind me of 2000s VWVortex photoshop threads.
As Reen Sport have put a 997 GT 4.0 into a 964 with stand alone electronics for intake, valve timing, abs, exhaust noise. The logical thing would be to put a 992ST engine gearbox into a 997.
Ebenezer Dodge! Yes....
Prediction: Stratos makes DTS’s list of top cars of the year
That was 2022!
Time to sacrifice all your cars for the S/T Jason.
how about a momentum preservation honda insight toyota prius sort of car, maybe with a electric assited turbo ?
Given your general hate of turbos, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on what to buy if you're living at altitude. It's commonly quoted that NA cars lose a out 30% of their power just going to Denver and even more as you go up from there. Some over-powered NA or a more likeable turbo?
That's where electric cars really shine. No power loss, and no fuel tuning issues. Same power at 14,000 feet as at sea level.
I've got to ask, if the Dino v6 is so great, why not the Fiat Dino Coupe? Not that it's cheap, but it doesn't cost the same as a small-medium sized castle
I do like the Fiat Dino and would own one for sure. It does have the same engine as the Ferrari which is great but for me the issue was that I experienced a lot of 246 Dinos before driving any Fiat Dinos and so the auditory cues caused me to subconsciously benchmark the experience against a 246 and of course with a live rear end (I've only driven 2.0 liter Fiat Dinos) and FR layout, the Fiat Dino is far less magical to drive. It is of course priced accordingly. By the same token, Stratos, whose shared powerplant also caused me to benchmark it against the 246 blew my mind because it is so different from the 246. So much more knife edge and massless feeling compared to a 246.
S/T Gear ratios are nearly identical to my 996 turbo 😃
Jason sings about "fire" and Derek envisions a burning Miura......
Can't blame DTS for it, though. That Miura is a gem, and has a record of being pre-disposed to trying to self immolate. It's a beauty, but I imagine quite a stressor to own and keep. My 986 could go up in smoke and, I wouldn't miss a beat. Nor would anyone except Jake from State Farm!
@@amyboehm802
Derek needs to sell that Italian drama queen and get the 964RS that he covets. He would probably get enough to buy that 190E EVO, too.
"Webers roasting on an open fire. Jack Points drooping like my nose......."
Jake's edit was full of beans
yes, campagnolo! very on brand....let's hear some cranky bike talk.
Question is, whether Jason decorates his Scirocco or not.
That Jason picture at 23:47
13:38 Jason is wrong. The 991 911 R does not share the RS/Turbo wide body. Wrong again 16:44. The 991 R and GT3 Touring share the same "mid" width body.
lol. You tell em!! You get off on correcting ppl, don’t you?
I'm guessing Jason's gripe is 1-2-3-4 should have had short gear ratio for backroads & trackdays while 5-6 should have had long gearing for cruising.
simply just reducing final drive ratio isn't the satisfactory answer for Goldilocks
YOU SIR... are absolutely, 100000% correct! Why would ANYONE want to buy an older car.....
CAUSE YOU CAN talk to them, you can understand them, you can drive them, you can do WHAT EVER IN THE HELL YOU WANT.. with them... and there is no beeping, or computer module from NORAD telling me... I cant do X cause that feature is locked out! Buying new... is only cause ya bored of the boring shit ya got now.
--- I drove my wifes '13 Edge for 3 weeks (with wife, boy and I) reading, blasting The Stones, honking SEMI's, windows down in mid winter (winter of '22) on the way to OHIO. I drove the LIVING SHIT out of her car. JUST as hard as I could possibly drive it. I wore a Hoodie and Jeans... and I think I lost 20+lbs of pure water through sweating my ass off in that driver seat (no hvac wanted or needed). Shit takes work when ya mind and hands are workin, pure 100% driving. No phone b.s, no podcasting, no wtf people are in their cars doing. Just LOUD MUSIC =- STONES and windows down for Boy honkin Semis. I drove her Edge and kept it at 65 - 70 to 100-105/110... constantly. Damn thing ran out of power at 100-105... so I can to pull back down and go back up with as much power the damn car could muster.
I FUCKING LOVED IT! I worked that thing in corners.. faster than I should be going in that thing through corners. I stayed up front and in front of Traffic on tight windy roads. Even though her car is as much as DEAF MUTE as a DEAF MUTE could BE!!! (No offense to people who are DEAF MUTES). Engine has a stryofoam cover car doesnt tell you anything or make you feel.. anything. Its like her car has a BALL-GAG in her mouth.
HAHA, then when I get back into 05 Honda Element after the trip was done and I felt like I just got back into something from the 80s where my ass feels everything.. and I can feel her talking to me.
I said this.. when I bought my 05 Element.. I dont want to buy.. anything newer than 05. Nothing. Even the Element removes the hydraulic steering and goes Electric.. as well as the gas n brake pedals after 05 towards '10 (end of production). They also changed the paint and made it more boring. If ya dont wanna make it boring: (As my boy and I say... stick a BLOWER in it, add a 5spd in with the red Valve Cover.. (a new set of springs, dampeners, sway bars)) And I think Id be doin real good!
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P.S
One of the hundred dozen reasons why I love my... Element.. is cause its like a VAN for me. Buying a Ford, GM, Chrysler / MB Van at the time before there were Vans to buy... were stupid expensive. Then, when they did bring them to the U.S... they were stupid to buy... cause Amazon was buying a FUCK TON of them... now that theyve basically done an about-face and removed them completely (even the Transit Connect Passenger Vans that are rarer than Hens Teeth)... Im back to not being able to buy them at all.
***And EVEN though my car looks weird as all hell and has all kinds of shortcomings.. I love it.. cause its a Van to me, and DOES WHAT NO OTHER in its same catagory can do. It puts People 2nd and CARGO 1st. Thats what I want, CARGO 1st. Im not interested in shlepping yahoos around. Im interested in going to do what I gotta do.. and doing it in my way!
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I LOVE THIS DAMN SHOW!!!!!!
CAMMISA sounds like me a lot... loud.. crazy.. and intelligent. Although.. he drove a CYBERTRUCK from Ol Musky... and I think Id burn in hell for driving one.
AMEN TO HIM!
Jason when are you going to release your S/T review video?
I did an in-car "2 Jasons 1 Car" with Jason Fenske - It'll be on his channel as soon as he's done, I guess?
@@JasonCammisa thank you, are you planning to release your own video of the S/T?
Why do the manual mk7 GTIs get a pass on long gearing when P cars don't? 72mph in top of 2nd. Mk5 was something like 20% shorter and that contributed to the eager vibe that recalled mk1.
Jason, for a daily, get a Civic Type R, the FK8, space to boot and an efficient one to top.
I guess the eGolf is okay...
It's way too big for me, sadly
@@JasonCammisa 👍
All this will be available on the 994 GT3 Touring, they wont develop it to not use it later.
I miss my B7 RS4 :(
The bit about Porsche developing a manual 6 speed for the R seems a bit far fetched, as the 997.2 did have a manual option bolted to the new 9A1 DI Motors to the regular Carrera models. Maybe I am wrong...
You’re right, but that was the 7 speed manual you’re referring to - the 911 R bankrolled the development of the GT 6 speed manual transmission
The thing is, Elon's "views" are current and well-known, it doesn't take a lot of historical navel-gazing to incorporate this into a Cybertruck story. With that knowledge, a more balanced review of the genesis of this "truck" and its engineering claims can be put in perspective. But I get Jason's point, he simply pointed out what he thought about the engineering, wasn't an expose on Elon.
How is the 991.2 GT3 Touring different on a public relative to that a 992 ST lifestyle car lol. Most long term Porsche owners know the difference between marketing and substance.
Good show but I disagree with Jason on pricing the GT3 Porsche. They benefit from the ADMs which proves they still have significant demand over supply or at least the illusion (many long term owners have MSRP deals for these cars) which allows them to make top dollar for a non limited car. If porsche increases $50k+ to try and match current supply / demand pricing they risk demand lowering due to pricing out some of the market that stretch or finance, the Msrp flippers, speculators, and most of all risk supply exceeding demand forcing unsold cars on the lot and worse discounts… then the illusion of exclusivity goes away.
speaking of new cars feeling like new cars. THe Ferrari 296 is just like the good old days with the car constantly breaking down on its own.
296 GTB 9.7 in 1/4 mile. Not 9.0.
Still pretty quick.
103 mph and you lose your car in California . On the autobahn that’s the centre lane 😊
Weird idea... Thoughts of towing a racecar with a class C motor home? I'd love to retire one day and tow a lotus or Cayman to tracks around the USA.. And park by beaches and lake.. Every retirement community is just golf... I don't golf.. I just want to drive... How do you retire as a petrol head?
As more companies pull driving from drivers and introduce autonomous tech, the faster we are on our way to just having trains.
...and you cannot pick your apex in a train.
@@jaytucker4338 I didn't say anything about cars to drive for fun, but 99% of cars are moving towards complete computer control which is just worse trains
@@PLxFTW I agree with you...I have often thought that IF cars are fully automated/computer controlled they could quickly get to the point where humans will not be able to drive even if they have a vehicle because computers are able to operate at speeds that we cannot compete with. (Said another way - Imagine trying to merge onto a highway where all of the cars are travelling at 250 mph.)
Derek Clapton 😂
DTS - I went down the German car history rabbit-hole about 10 years ago and yes, agree, not pretty. I read somewhere in that process that good old Ferdi at one point referred to the guy whose name we shall not mention as his “mentor”. Or maybe he said “a” mentor. Either way, not great.
In fact growing up my friend’s parents were very well off but were staunch Jaguar customers. I asked him “why Jag? What about Mercedes or BMW or something?” Yeah no, my parents will never buy a German car. Ever.
You know the rule: once you get a minivan, you've got nothing else to live for. Get a Cayman, it's got a hatch!
Dealership I work at just sold its second (or third?) GT3 RS for $200,000 over sticker. I am so fuckin glad I work in service, fuck markups even if it is justified by the market because Porsche is too stupid to price the cars correctly… Also, just sold a GT2 RS Weissach for nearly $400,000.
S/T better than 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0?
31:20
@@DrChristopherAnthony Yeah, thanks
I comment first, listen later. 😀
I appreciated your question. I was just sharing notes.
Try to get Anthony as a guest your director camera man
To Jason’s comment : US dealerships are guilty when it comes to mark ups. Porsche can command a lot more for their cars then they are asking. If it weren’t the case why do they have new S/T owners lease those cars for year 1? They don’t want the car flipped for a fast profit. Forget that noise! Charge another 100k for an S/T they’ll still sell every single one.
As a long time Porsche owner, I agree Schmuck dealer, and that’s why I most likely will never buy another new Porsche.
Gonna be honest the soundboard in the shot literally makes my head hurt.
Sorry Jason- I disagree 100% with you regarding that Porsche made a mistake about not pricing the cars higher. If a GT3 was $500k it would never sell in the same numbers it does and the dealers will still be able to stack ADM on some of them because if there is one thing we’ve learned over the last several years is that when it comes to desire for the extremely wealthy to own GT Porsches there is no barrier to what they are willing to spend. Perfect example is if you had told someone 10 years ago (when a brand new loaded Cayman S didn’t exactly fly off dealers lots for $70-75k) that within a decade Porsche would have a variant of the Cayman model that would cost over $200k MSRP(!) ……AND that people would spend $75-100k over that MSRP to get one, you’d be called crazy. But back to my point, now that the extremely wealthy collectors who likely won’t even drive the cars are all done and moved on to the latest thing, the market has corrected severely and GT4 RS’s can be had for as little as $15-20k over MSRP because apparently people don’t see value in a $300k Porsche sports car that isn’t a 911 just as they wouldn’t see value in a $500k 911 GT3
Jason, my guy, you are holding up the eGolf as a practicality and frugality example while at the same time admitting that NO ONE ELSE COULD GET THE DEAL YOU GOT. There isn't a car on sale today that gets sold for under 10k new, except in your weird car journalist world where every dealer is your friend and doesn't mind taking a 20k haircut on the price of a vehicle. Obviously the GR86 loses out when it costs three times as much as a DEEPLY discounted eGolf. But what sort of comparison is that?
Geez, u sound upset. What is it? You don’t like capitalism? You are mad at other ppls success? They’re providing entertainment, but at the end of the day. just so weird to be salty like you are. Are you mad at your plumber bc he gets his pipes for cost? Pipe envy? Furthermore, how he got that deal (by and large) is him being a highly educated consumer and knowing the types of rebates/incentives available. Which in turn makes you salty for him being smart…….which would make u?……..
Damn speak to text. Pardon my typos.
Nah you definitely got a valid point but I think you cane off a little strong. Going to be hard to get people to agree with you with that language. I would edit the message but keep the same general vibe
I didn't get a special journalist deal... it was absolutely available to the public. 14 of my friends leased e-Golfs at the same time back in 2017, and we all paid the same; and 3 of us chose to buy 2019s at the end of our leases. Everyone got the same deal. I understand your frustration, but it's misplaced.
911 ST is unobtanium...Even if you can afford one, nearly impossible to get unless you've bought 1/2 dozen porsche SUV's from the local dealer
Alot of countries do not allow car dealers to sell above msrp,
Problem solved !
No piech-isode? NEIN
😃😃😃
Excellent Campagnolo shirt Derek. Is it random, or are you a cyclist?
I'm never giving Elon Musk a cent of my money... but I'm still impressed by the Cybertruck and some other Tesla products. Credit for these achievements lie with his staff in any case, in my opinion
I think the difference with Tesla is it is not just Elon Musk who has done and said bad things. The company itself has some major ethical problems.
F12 looks like an F type. 812 TdF all the way
Why can't cammisa have a ford?
hmmm the new great perspective that i picked up from this episode which makes a lot of sense is that porsche is the one's that fucked up the system. They sell the cars too cheap and that allows all these greedy do-nothing dealers to charge so much markup and put you in a position to play their shitty games. Yep I think porsche should just raise prices to realistic market price, which will lower their demand tremendously as that wipes out dealers and flippers, and let the cars depreciate naturally and most enthusiast can dream and wait around for one while driving their caymans and mecans (or work harder or give up more unnecessary stuff in life). In the meantime, the money gets reinvested to make even better, non EV cars which will benefit our community