The Good Old Days vs Tomorrow - The Carmudgeon Show with Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 129
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- Опубликовано: 3 май 2024
- "The good old days weren't always good. And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems."
Jason and Derek got a huge amount of feedback from the previous episode discussing whether the current car market sucks for Young Enthusiasts. In this episode, the Carmudgeons discuss the feedback - and further define what the problem is - and why that results in outrageous dealer ADMs and shady sales practices.
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First up, Jason is getting beat up on his Cybertruck review - lately having been asked by CNBC whether the Tesla has a snow problem. Meanwhile - all eyes are on the Cybertruck. And our politicized environment just can't cope.
Second, Derek got lots of feedback from 20-somethings who agreed with him that there are no cool cars post-2000 - and that their economic situation has changed sufficiently that they can't own enthusiast cars, anyway.
Meanwhile, Jason got the opposite feedback - that things aren't that bad.
What ensues is, as always, an intelligent discussion about the car market. And how today's economics - and lack of great choices for enthusiast - have encouraged dealers to add slimy markups, prevent buyers from test driving cars they're genuinely interested in buying, and other slimeball practices.
In short, Jason quotes Billy Joel: "The good old days weren't always good. And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems."
Except for dealers. Car dealers are just awful. 
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Derek, what truly makes you a man of taste is not your appreciation of cars as much as your compassion.
Derek is one of the very rare people who really reacts with grace and emotional intelligence. His EQ is off the charts.
Love an episode where Derek gets turnt up!
@@eugew23 Equalized af
My boy Derek laying down the facts here. I've been an enthusiast since I was a kid (33 now) and I have basically come to terms withe the idea that I'll never own any of the fun cars I used to think about. Things have certainly changed. I'm also one of the crazies that wants to own a Lancia and Citroen!
Part of the problem with Lancias and probably Citroens is that they didn't have very good protection against rust. There never were many of them in the US and most of those have rusted away unless they were somewhere like California.
Same thing happened to 240Zs - they rusted like mad. There are only a decent number left because Datsun sold a ton of them and a lot of those were in California.
I'm 33 as well, I always wanted 911 993, but I always knew it probably won't happen. But I also always wanted a Miata (since NFS Underground), and I got it.
I'm with Jason on that, people in their 20s and 30s are whining here that they can't get new enthusiast cars, but they never could. You usually get to that point in your 40s, 50s, or never. They are expensive.
Just stop whining and get the best you can. I can GUARANTEE that there is something cool you can still get. Maybe not something new, but who the fuck cares? Going back to Miata - you can get used one for a freaking one month salary... Is that not a great time to be alive? I think it is.
My first car was a Citroen 2cv, my second a Lancia Fulvia. Had them both before I was 20 and I'm currently 28, I resonated far too well with what Derek was saying here! Guess I'm in the echo chamber Jason was talking about but I like to think those cars are just objectively desirable no matter how old you are.
Watch out! I started on a 70's mk2 ford escort in 2002 when I was 22 as my first car , Upgraded? to a Capri 1600gt and then settled on a Lancia Fulvia since 2006. had many newer vehicles since but the Lancia is staying.
I feel so lucky that I've owned 80% of my childhood dream cars as i set my standards pretty realistically 😂 and you can definitely afford a Lancia or Citroen if you budget and search accordingly. Lancia stratos replicas from listerbell and Hawk are actually pretty well built and not insane money
For what it’s worth Jason, I’m sure a lot of us in here are in the ‘Jason made a great review of the Cybertruck and am open to all car reviews’ camp. Keep up the great work. EVs surely have exposed all of the moron car enthusiasts out there
Agreed
I don’t think my lack of interest in EVs makes me a moron. 🤷♂️ Jason makes great content and the Cybertruck review is no exception imho. I skipped every other review except his because I enjoy his content so much.
@@S8ERI thought the OP was referring to a particular type of car enthusiast, not all car enthusiasts. I could be wrong.
@@williamgechtman9287 that may be true.., perhaps I read more into it than OP intended.
Agreed. I had nothing against or in favor of Tesla prior to Jason’s review, I went into it purely wanting to learn about the CyberTruck and I was not disappointed.
I personally think Jason’s productions are so good the Internet tends to believe he could only review cars he loves. Being knowledgeable and sharing the information with Jason’s enthusiasm can also only mean he wants the vehicle too, even if the review is purely based on real statistics that are mind blowing. Keep being the good automotive journalist you are!!
Very good point!
Cybertruck aside,, that review video was so well done and your conversation on smoking tire showed how smart and informed you are (a fucking folder of information....that was cunty) and i went from literally not knowing you to listening to every carmudgen ep religiously..so i count that as a slay
Also I got my ND Miata at MSRP this year, I felt trulyyyyyy lucky
That folder you sent was equivalent to Elon sending his "how to 18v" pdf 😂
@@Heyitsallgoodman 48v
Except some this he was wrong/misleading about. Cybertruck wasn’t the first car to have steer by wire. The model S wasn’t ever the “saves car” and never got over 5 stars. I’m not saying he’s sold, I’m saying he stretched facts/over exaggerated to get views
@@trevorhsu6357 cool
I think the disconnect is wages have not kept up with car values. Or housing, or food… So most people’s buying power is much less. It is easy to say car values have not gone up as much as we think. Well compared to the average persons wage they really and truly have. Just my two cents.
I really enjoyed how much more vocal Derek in this episode!
I agree that everyone seems to be funnelled into the same type of cars, and I think part of that is because of how expensive new cars have gotten, and how little they’re depreciating compared to how they used too.
For example, ‘cool’ cars from the 90’s like Skylines (GTR’s even), Silvia’s, RX7’s you name it, all hit their natural depreciation curve; while I was growing up, in the years just before I could buy cars like it (because of both age and insufficient income cause I was in high school lol, I had to work for years to save up the 10k I used for my first car back then), R32 GTR’s were 20k AUD at the HIGH end, R33’s were less, S15’s were around 10k AUD and under, the list goes on. And I’m not talking about bloody 2001 pre internet area, I’m talking about 2016, 2017, even 2018. This reasoning is exclusive to where I live as well, because in those years, I was on what’s called a Provisional License here in Australia, meaning legally, I couldn’t drive cars like GTR’s and Evo’s and WRX’s etc.
Some 200sx’s were allowed, but at that point, insurance would come in and charge you 3-4k per year or more because of your age.
So all that to say they weren’t accessible to a lot of people my age, and by the time they became accessible, these cars had already hit the bottom of their depreciation curve, and skyrocketed back up so quickly with increase demand, which was ALSO artificially inflated by covid + import laws allowing cars like skylines and S15’s into the US (which is part of the reason I used those as specific examples).
The problem I’m seeing is, NONE of the NEW fun/cool cars come close to hitting where the bottom of their depreciation curve theoretically should be (based on older cars that hit it). If that were the case, FD2 Type R’s should be well and truly under 20k AUD by now, they’re comfortably over 30. FK8’s should start bottoming out in a couple years, but considering their current price + the price of older FD2’s and even EK9’s, they’re never gonna reach the low price you’d thing they would.
Then if we look at brand new cars like the M2’s, GR Corolla/Yaris, Hyundai N range, Nissan Z, Type R even the new supra in manual, the problem is they’re all super fucking expensive. The only car there under $70,000 AUD is the Hyundai which admittedly, is the most underwhelming of the bunch. So you’ve definitely hit the nail on the head when it comes to dealerships.
And then like I was saying, if there are older versions of these cars, like M2’s and Type R’s, you’re still looking at 40-50k cause they just aren’t depreciating the way cars used too, which is insane, and potentially in part due to dealers and insane markups on new equivalents of older sought after cars.
It’ll be another 10 years till some of these cars newer cars theoretically should hit the bottom of their depreciation, where more people theoretically COULD have the chance of affording one second hand, but that’s not guaranteed and by the current trends, unlikely.
At this point, I don’t think we live in a world where we’re gonna see 10,000 Porches ever again, and I think the Ferrari argument was a damn good one that I’ve basically expanded upon here. There’s no such thing as an ‘entry level’ Ferrari anymore, or really any ‘entry level’ performance car. It’s either basic consumer car or bust, which is not how it used to be, and why it’s so frustrating.
fr
too many words not saying anything.
@@chadbarbaro I’m just really good at yapping bro
TLDR; cool cars expensive cause they don’t make them anymore + not many new cool cars and those that do come out don’t depreciate like they used too = cheap fun cars are no more
If that doesn’t make sense read my essay lol
get a Honda fit
Actually, there still are $10,000 Porsches - 944s. Not as cool as a 911, but a really solid sports car.
And I don't think the US market is taking out many Australian GT-Rs. People here just aren't into RHD cars.
Jason has got to realize that financially things are sooo tight right now for so many people. The simple fact is that wages have absolutely not risen with rent prices and the prices of goods over the last 20 years or so
I make what most would consider "good money" (still somehow below the cost of living for my area). I can't afford to buy any car over $20k if I'm not being financially stupid. It's pretty wild
@@Villani_AVsame boat.
Jason truly has become a tech bro Elon stan who thinks everyone makes 6 figures.. It's kinda sad
Amazed how consistently Jason undermines the cost of living crisis, that is the epicenter of this argument, for two weeks in a row.
He doesn’t feel it the way that normal folks do
Jason is still underestimating the impact of Gran Turismo and Forza. These games meant the 90s hero cars never left pop culture.
A lot of time was spent talking about how old E90s etc. are now and comparing to previous decades. Even though 2004-2024 and 1984-2004 both span 2 decades, the gulf between owning a 20 year old car at the end of each is immense. I own a 2004 Forester XT and it gives up essentially nothing in terms of reliability, performance and economy to anything newer its class. The designs of 2000 cars have dated, but not dated poorly due to no revolution in design (other than LED lighting) in the ensuing years. Manufacturing tolerances and styling elements mean a 2005 Audi A3 isn’t all that different to look at than the current model.
Yeah no I was born on 2001 and my big impressions left on cars and my first interaction with them since I never had any access IRL (no posh friends and no car events either, really) was through Gran Turismo. That's what built my obsession and a big aspect of it also is the variety it had.
You could enter the race with a FD and be up against an SL55 or a Lotus or whatnot.
Look at R34 GT-Rs being so expensive now being a relatively niche car created for the Japanese Domestic Market and a handful of them sold on in the UK and Europe.
People weren't exposed to it, they drove it though. And that left a huge impression.
Totally agree about racing games impacting generations of car enthusiasts and what they are interested in. And you point about car quality is spot on. 20 year car today is not the same as a 20 year car in the year 2000 in terms of reliability and performance. I would think Derek would agree also since he mentions once EFI solves most issues about driving old cars. I will add though that the aftermarket parts/performance market really does help old cars stay relevant.
Plus movies, how many movies with brand new cars as the hero car are both the focus of the movie, or just good movies?
I’ve enjoyed your content for years, Jason. Your Cybertruck review was well researched, impartial, comprehensive, and entertaining. You aren’t “in trouble”. People just suck. It’s not a you problem. It’s their problem.
The 17:45 mark of the Supra Icons episode shows Jason holding a chart that supports Derek’s stance on this pretty well. I think there is plenty of data available that shows that the buying power has been greatly diminished due to the slow growth of wages in comparison to cost of living, which results in less buying power.
It's wild how Jason has consistently discounted wages not keeping up with costs when adjusted for inflation. Like yes some models had so much profit baked into them (corvette) that the company could raise prices much slower, but overall people can't responsibly afford new cars on most wages. I say responsibly because while I take home over $1100 a week, having a $600+ per month payment would be extremely imprudent. Even possibly ruin me. Because every other bill is way too much
I think the issue with the Cybertruck review is that most people have been bombarded by so many influencers promoting products instead of real reviews. I've noticed unless the review is highly negative it is seen as a shill for the company. Negativity is equated with honesty, sometimes incorrectly.
My issue with his Cybertruck review is that it was almost so completely uncritical of everything that Tesla fed him that he came across as a shill.
Most of the stuff that he lauded Tesla for for just doing things that other automakers think through the long-term issues associated with changes.
But what do I know? We love our ID.4 for being all of the things that Jason doesn’t like about it.
Exactly! I was fine, until he raved about how somehow Tesla were the only ones smart enough to use a 48V architecture. In reality, that shit has been used by Audi, Mercedes and VW in their mild hybrids long before the cybertruck. Also, 12V does not appear to be a problem that needs fixing, as it still works perfectly fine in most cars!
My thoughts exactly. I like the "truck" in many ways but the lack of critical approach was appalling. And then JC had the audacity to say he was objective about it.
none of those use Completely 48v architecture, that was the bing thing@@leviathan5207
@@leviathan5207 You're confusing traction systems with bus voltage. The Cybertruck has a 800V traction system and a 48V architecture. A Prius has a 200V traction system and a 12V architecture. All of the "mild hybrids" from Audi, Mercedes and VW have a 48V traction system and a 12V architecture.
The way I see it is: manufacturers made interesting cars 20 years ago but we didn't buy them so they stopped. That left a gap in the market which we try to fill with the older cars which makes them too expensive for younger people. There was always a stream of older cool cars for young people to buy but but our generation stopped it. Also, Derek is absolutely correct about economic factors.
I blame dealerships in the 2000s for that. They wouldn't order into stock the interesting model so you would only get the hardcore enthusiasts willing to wait 10 months for their new car. Plus the fact that pay didn't keep up with inflation
They hit the peak. There was nowhere else to go but down. Twin turbo, AWS, active aero, AWD, VVT, ABS. Too expensive to build, too expensive to sell lots of. So many different directions with the tech. SUVs were truck based and had almost no tech, just existing hardware, and people wanted them for some reason.
I still can't list every option on my 94 in one shot. I almost sold my car once. I tried to narrow it down to fun, and unique only and had a paragraph. Still glad I didn't sell it. One person came to test drive. Didn't know how to drive a manual.
42:25-42:50 also also the currently used solution to meeting regs is making cars _bigger_ 😢.
The thing that frustrates me the most is that we have the technology to make relatively affordable 2,000 lb cars with excellent performance _and_ fuel economy, but it makes more cents to sell 4,000 lb coupe-ified SUVs 🤷🏼♂️🤦
Hey Derek, give us some more BTS episodes! Every one has been pure happiness for me. Any cars you are looking for, for future episodes?
The editor is killing it. I really laughed out loud at 25:32
I totally watch this (partly) for how Derek looks. 🔥
As someone who has always seen trucks as something to be used for actual work instead of mall crawling, or coal rolling. Ev trucks almost seem like a step in the right direction compared to typical trucks. I still think a truck should require work permits to own (mostly because I just want smaller and lighter cars on the road as I think that would make more new cars more interesting and potentially sporting).
The guy in the cowboy boots and cowboy hat living in an apartment, working in an office, driving a truck. The only bullshit they have ever been exposed to is coming out of their mouth. These people cosplay every day of their lives. An EV truck is perfect for them. (also Harley riders)
Oi, you got a license for that truck?
@@gnoxycat seems like you have some strong opinions, funny I don’t live in an apartment, work in an office, wear any “cowboy” apparel, or drive a truck (or harley). Maybe you’re just projecting the way you see the world onto people you assume you know anything about!
What comments did Jason read?? The ones I saw were 99% agreeing with Derek.
I know you intentionally said you left this part out, but I think there is a conversation to have about offroading and more "rugged" versions of cars. Subaru have Wilderness trims, Toyota has the TRD versions of everything including the Rav-4, Ford with the Bronco, Jeep putting the 492 V8 in the Wrangler, Porsche with the Dakar 911. This may have something to do with SUV's adding in some ruggedness after moving away from body on frame chassis, but, certainly in the US, people looking for offroading are possibly set pretty well. And if that's the case, perhaps the enthusiast choice will move from track cars to more rally cars. Although that may be wishful thinking on my end considering the lack of manuals or manufacturers in WRC.
Supra sales down 48%, but there’s not a single one in inventory that’s sitting on a dealership’s lot that isn’t already pre-sold or with a crazy +20$k markup. I’ve had a deposit down for a Manual Supra for over 1.5yrs and the dealership still says ‘sorry no eta’….I’ve begun to sympathize with dealers in this aspect of a limited produced vehicle, it’s the manufacturer (in this case Toyota) who is to blame because they want to sell “one too few GR” cars
Exactly this. Not to mention, "one too few GR cars" doesn't work if your hesitancy to produce them pushes buyers into other cars. You've been patient waiting 1.5 years but guaranteed countless others have given up and bought a Mustang or Camaro in that time. They're losing sales lol. Camaro sold 30k last year, Mustang sold 50k, and Supra only manages to sell 2.5k? Unless it's some constraint because of BMW parts, I have no idea what Toyota is doing. Same for Elantra N or WRX, most buyers are people who have given up waiting on the Civic Type R or GR Corolla
@@davidsucks922 2023 BMW reported record sales of over 2.5 million units (Reuters), so I’m guessing we can disregard supply as a constraint….
I think a big part of the limited production of these types of cars is also meeting emissions regulations across their fleet. Toyota has to sell a lot of Priuses and other low emission vehicles to have the "credits" to sell a single GR car.
It *is* very frustrating to see Supras and other cars like it be theoretically available, but not actually. I had the same thing with the GR86: first, it wasn't available to buy from Toyota at all where I live (Finland), despite the pre-launch marketing saying the opposite. Then the price in Europe was set a lot higher than the US, so it wasn't even affordable to me as new if I were to import one from within the EU. I just had to wait and *hope* for a used one in the right spec to become available. Luckily for me, my wait of about 1,5 years is over and my "new" 86 will be brought over from Germany in about 10 days! 😁
I'm 27, live in Phoenix and rent out cars on Turo including a manual ND1 Miata and Tesla Model 3 (full list in the comments)
My daily commute has 5 turns over 20 miles and most of that is in rush hour traffic. Years ago Jason posted a video of his commute in 10x speed on Instagram. He said it was 20 minutes of 8-9/10ths driving. If that's true then Jason's net lateral Gs for one week are greater than my net lateral Gs for an entire year and I promise you I drive like a [censored] whenever possible.
With conditions like that it makes sense that Jason and Derek place such a high priority on the way a car drives. In an ideal world driving dynamics would be my top priority as well but that's just not where I spend my time. My commute is so boring that I might as well just save my energy and relax in a car that drives itself.
99% of consumers aren't enthusiast. 90% of enthusiast aren't skilled drivers. Of the 5,500 Turo cars in Phoenix I own 2 of the 50 manual cars listed. Of my Miata's 100 trips only 10 people have driven the car hard (according to gps data, more on that in the comments). Of those 10 probably 4 of them could describe trail braking.
Economics be damned I live this existence and see why enthusiast cars are so unpopular on the consumer side. Then you include the massive risks to finances, legal standing and mortality. 43% of accidental deaths are due to car accidents. 10-20% of the average person's income goes towards cars (and they're not even enthusiast!). With cars as my business I can't afford to make a mistake (see comments).
I love my Miata. On my roadtrips life feels so good, it's surreal. On a day to day basis it makes me feel like I'm really living, that I'm not some cog in a machine. Those things are valuable to me but the cost is high and I have other priorities.
I believe I've found a better outlet. Road biking. The Miata is so good because it requires so little restraint. You can really let loose. Biking is one of the most unrestrained activities a person can take part in. I pedal as hard as possible for 1 hour a day. It's awesome. Around here the paths are more exciting than the roads, the exercise is incredible, I'm building a skill and I get to enjoy the outdoors. It costs me $2,000 to get the ND Miata of road bikes. I'm living large for the price of wheels and tires.
I've given this car thing my best shot but I think my love for it has peaked. I'll always enjoy cars but with traffic, costs, the impending singularity of evs and my new love for biking; I think I'm ready to turn my curiosity in other directions. I can rent something nice for my 4 days of road trips a year.
Background:
I'm 27 and I live with my Mom in Phoenix while I get a bachelors in mechanical engineering. I rent out cars on Turo and have spent years valeting. I currently have a manual ND1 Miata, manual gen2 BRZ, 18 Accord, 16 Q5 3.0T, 19 Mazda 3, 17 Ioniq and 18 Tesla Model 3 that I rent out. I love cars more than anything. I love them all. I've gone to the track, I take at least 1500 miles of road trips a year, I watch every show, am always looking for my next car and sharing my passion with whoever I can. Yet, lately I find myself caring less and less.
Turo experience expanded:
I have a manual Miata wtih 100 trips on Turo and I have access to the gps data for all of them. At best 25% of my guest trigger a rough driving notification for hard braking or fast acceleration. Of that 25% only 10 of these people have triggered more than 25 notifications. Of those 10 only 3 of them have taken the car on a canyon run with 50+ notifications. I expeand
None of my guest have driven the car harder than I do on a regular basis. People do not drive this car hard. Many of them don't know how to. They try to teach me about rev matching. I've had panicked phone calls asking how to put the car in reverse. Someone forgot about the parking brake. The car rolled into the street and got impounded. All that and I'm dealing with the reasonable people. I can only imagine what would happen if I had a Mustang, Corvette or Challenger with an automatic. Any idiot can step into one of those.
Of enthusiast most of them aren't capable of engaging in more than 60 seconds of spirited driving on a daily basis. Of the people that have access to spirited driving most of them don't take advantage of it. Most of them wouldn't even know how to. I bet only 10% of people with enthusiast cars know the term trail braking.
My curiosity:
One final note. I'm trying to figure out where to put more energy. I already have an ND Miata. God willing I'll keep it forever. From what I hear it doesn't get much better than this. For cars I've never driven anything made before 1999, done a lemons race or gone offroading. Those are all of the things that I'd really like to do. That's not a lot. For a long term solution I think I'll be better rewarded by engaging my curiosity in other ways.
'Murica really needs better consumer protections. Dealers being allowed to get away with the kind of practices you described because "free market" is probably the best encapsulation of unencumbered capitalism gone wrong I can think of.
What is MSRP? A suggested price by the manufacturer. No one told the manufacturer what they could charge the dealer for the car. Why should the dealer be told what to ask for it? If you sell your car on Craigslist, no one tells you what you can ask for it. It's a free country! Ask away! Sure, dealers are mostly untrustworthy Aholes, no doubt! I am NOT defending their general business practices. But I fail to see why they shouldn't be allowed to set their own asking prices and adjust them as supply and demand dictate. Just like restaurants, shoe stores, supermarkets, etc. Are we all entitled pay MSRP or less, but never more? I don't think so. If you don't like the price, move on. It's that simple.
@@DerekJohnson-us7vy I'm referring to the blatant false advertising and deceptive conduct. The markups on their own are fine - but if they're luring people in with a promise they don't charge them, then telling customers to go jump when they point it out, they should be getting fined into oblivion. Your consumer protection watchdog evidently needs teeth.
@@DerekJohnson-us7vyThere is no added value for having dealers. Here, I prove it to you. How many Tesla dealers are there? Not Tesla stores, from Tesla but dealers who buy a Tesla then resale it because people want that experience. There is nothing stopping them from doing this, but there zero. As soon as there is competition to the dealer model, the dealer model fails, completely.
On bait and switch tactics we are a million percent agreed. I’d love to see huge fines for that bs.
Derek somehow understands economics for poorer people much better than Jason does, despite his youth and presumably comfortable background. Plus, Derek is right about the three generations competing for the same set of cars. I myself, however, have no good sense (or dollars) - I was born in 1970, I dream of owning a car even older than me, no matter how impractical, and I don’t really like any cars made past about 1988. Unfortunately, I can only afford to collect 1:64 cars, not real ones. As for the Cybertruck, Jason’s review was perhaps a bit over enthusiastic, but I don’t see why people are giving him a hard time. The Cybertruck’s problem isn’t engineering, it’s Elon, and the video wasn’t about Elon.
What's wrong with Elon? He's a breath of fresh air among the world's self-proclaimed "elites" .
@@afoolandhismoneychannel Total Ahole. Look at his marital and parenting history. Breath of fresh air? Puhlease.
it's because Jason is a "normal" guy apart from his car knowledge and ability to present. He's also a bit of a boomer. Derek is wiser and a unique person who isn't exactly a reflection of an "average" person at whatever age imo.
@@afoolandhismoneychannel😂😂 oh brother, give your head a shake.
@@TML34 I'd have to be careful. If I shook it too hard, I'd become a Liberal.
Oxymoron: a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction.
Jason: Hold my beer.
I'm 24, I love BMWs from the 1960s-1990s
Main focus on the 80s cars, currently have 8 E30s, 2 E32s, 2 E10 2002s, and 2 E28s. I'm able to do this by just running it as a restoration business, on top of being a full time engineer in the corporate world.
We basically get cars, replace basically everything, enjoy, then resell. Plenty of cars from this era are available!
Hell, I paid $2000 for a run and drive 1987 325i 5 speed sedan 4 months ago and got a $1500 2002 roller 3 days ago. The deals are out there, you just have to take action.
P.S. Jason, the early model E30 is and always will be superior, I still can't believe you called it ugly in a previous episode.
The best part about a debate Carmudgeon, is when the comments get to debate too! We can argue with love!
Shows like Initial D are always gonna be about the same cars, no matter when you watch them.
But over time, cars get more expensive and less fun.
Yeah, from what I've seen in Japan most enthusiasts still drive 90s-adjacent cars (plus the odd 86/BRZ, GR Yaris or R35)
The point about real estate is really important. I am lucky to have a two car garage at a rental but can see a time in the future this is no longer viable given how cost is progressing. I absolutely need a garage space to enjoy the shit boxes I have.
Maybe the best solution for folks who don't have space to work on their cars is to get into local enthusiast clubs. Often other members have garage space, tools (even specialty ones) and if you're really lucky, perhaps even a car lift. It's worth a shot.
@@dougrobinson8602 Not a bad idea, or maybe splitting the cost of shop space rental with a group of friends.
@@NoClassic Community shop
It drives me insane how little the land property aspect is brought up. I bought an 04 rsx that is k24 swapped last year, and have been slowly trying to complete/fix all the small issues it has, while I still live in an apartment with my mom. The only space I have to work with, are the white lines of what ever parking spot I'm in. I'm well aware that buying someone else's project car was and is a poor decision, but honestly I'm not going to spend ten or twenty more years working until I can afford my own space just to enjoy a beater ratty honda.
@@dougrobinson8602as someone who owns his own private use shop with two lift my odds of letting someone who isn't family or my best friend (who is a certified tech) use it is 0%. Besides the fact that tools are expensive the liability of letting a stranger use the shop and especially the lifts is just a total non-starter.
For what it’s worth from a little old viewer like me, I thought the Cybertruck video was amazing. I watched it with my wife and now she loves your videos, we went back and watched the rest of icons and revelations. Thank you both for you all you do!
I think the manufacturers tried to stop dealer markups by raising msrp by $10k. And they still get marked up. Im sad.
The Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing is sold out. There are almost no for sale in the USA.
The same is true for other exciting cars. Either there is a huge mark-up, or they are sold out.
Derek goes to one of the core problems at 20:35 ...wages have not followed the price inflation of everything else.
Hooray for John Phillips! I’m looking forward to that episode even more than the Piech-pisode.
I'd love to hear more about the plight of those who no longer live in chateaus....
A two wheel drive with great snow tires always beats a four wheel with all seasons, Montreal Quebec 😅
The fact that Jason got into trouble for speaking his mind says it all, that internet has been the perfect tool for people, not to learn more knowledge, but to seek approval.
This was a great conversation, wish it was longer
Currently 20 in college with a manual MR2 Spyder. They’re still relatively cheap and very reliable since it’s a backwards Corolla. I think 2000’s vehicles are a good compromise being reliable but still not having a ton of electronics. My car has ABS only.
Miatas of that vintage are also pretty reliable and also not that expensive. That's also true for the NC generation that ran through 2015. And there is one really fast car that is relatively cheap - the 7th generation Corvette, which you can get with a manual.
@@jimiverson3085 C7’s aren’t exactly cheap…not relative to Miata’s and MR2’s at least. You’re still looking at low $30k pricing there with pretty high mileage. C5’s are more in line with cheaper pricing (Sub $12k) if you want the front-engined variety. I prefer MR myself though and my next move will likely be to a 987 (high teens-low twenties range like a C6).
@@cornercarver636
The idea of a C7 being cheap is relative to what they are. $30K for a modern car that is still faster than most is a relative if not absolute bargain.
If recent trends hold, 987s may be bottoming. 987s and 997s may inherit the air-cooled halo - last "genuine" and all that. Be careful if you get a 987.1 - they can have engine problems that get real expensive real fast. And normal service bits like clutches are not cheap. Full disclosure - I own a 987.2 Boxster S. It's probably still worth about what I paid for it 9 years ago.
@@jimiverson3085 I see what you mean now. I agree, in terms of pure performance they can’t be beat. I do think I’d prefer an Elise or Cayman S over the C7 though in terms of handling and driving fun. I’d have to drive them though. I only have experience with the C5 and a 986S.
@@jimiverson3085 We shall see. IIRC 987’s were the last to have a hydraulic steering setup. The 981 seemed to become softer overall versus the 987. I could definitely see why 987 values would be bottomed currently.
great editing again from the new ish editor very funny like always good job i love passionate discussions like this and referencing the dm's received was also very fun as i felt very seen and called out at the same time, a good variety from the normal nerdy stuff feels great.
Have been a Jason fan for many years, and now I am a Derek fan too. I think both of you make great points, are both whip smart on your feet, and both very entertaining. Being closer to Jason's age than Derek's--and keeping my fun car out at Smith Ranch Airport (like Jason?), my view of this topic more closely track's with Jason's, but I enjoy the debate. Still hoping to run into you guys around the North Bay sometime. Cheers!
I think the real argument is the type of experience you get comparing 2 cars that were affordable in different eras. The experience a Lancia Fulvia Coupe Series I Vs a Pontiac Solstice for example. That's why it kinda sucks. The window is making cars with less experience affordable.
Best car podcast out there. Now with additional tips explaining acronyms! With Derrick's beaming smile 😂
Brilliant touch
There is a saying where I live: A dealer starts lying when he wishes you a good morning. I hope it translates to english.
The real challenge now will be information: We have more of it. Car enthusiasts now are more informed than they were. The "old beater turned classic and beloved" phenomenon was noted by basically everyone. So where an enthusiast car might have once depreciated to say 10% of it's original value, sat at that price point for maybe 10 years, before slowly creeping up in value until it became beyond reach, now everyone is looking for exactly that scenario with modern classics. People are going to pounce on those cars now, instead of overlooking them for 10 years. The result will be that enthusiast cars will only depreciate down to 30-40% of their original value, and they'll only stay down for a few years before popping back up, quickly. This also doesn't account for car companies learning the value of limited supply to encourage demand for halo models.
This will be especially true for any cars that were the "last of" for desirable traits: light weight, small, hydraulic, naturally aspirated, RWD only, front steering only, turbo'd (vs hybrid/electric), etc. I'd argue it's a different dynamic we're going to be seeing going forward.
Jason is still underestimating the significance of wages not keeping pace with inflation. It is considerably harder to be an enthusiast now than it was before.
The V8 Vantage is still a great, medium-affordability, fun car for enthusiasts.
Yes, I think the idea that people are looking at only a small section of cars as being good as that is where the noise is not the pleasure
THIS. I love my V8 Vantage, it’s such a wonderful car. I ended up with a 4.7l car but after owning it, I don’t see any reason I wouldn’t be happy with a 4.3l car. And a gorgeous 4.3l car just sold on BAT for 36 grand.
Medium affordability is definitely a stretch for any Aston Martin. Maintenance is expensive and the buy in on the used market is still more than some cars new
Do not do a list of cars that over-deliver in relation to their used prices. I have a list in my head of such cars, and I'd bet it has several cars you would list which will then skyrocket in price. Every time you drop an Icons episode, the things show up on BaT and get bid to the moon. Then the average owner of one of these conveyances think their car is worth way more than it is. It's a vicious snowball effect. Just don't, mmmmkayyyyy?
Agreed. I think social media has contributed to the rise in car prices. People see RUclipsrs or other influencers owning or talking about a car and then they are influenced to go buy one, increasing demand. As social media becomes more pervasive, there are fewer and fewer obscure cars that don't get main stream attention and corresponding price hikes.
This is why this era of car journalism is on its way out. Overly subjective rankings of cars, no understanding of the used market, and of course these commenters are band wagoning with the old heads because they've been conditioned by advertisers to love things they can't afford. They do not represent enthusiasts in the real world.
21:46 I think this point is so important. The internet and auction sites has made the used car market more “efficient” which means fewer “deals”
Thanks for starting the podcast at the beginning this time
Will just put it out there, but the last of the base enthusiasts option that no one talks about was the BMW E82 128i in a manual with OEM+ upgrades with E9X M suspension (remove soft bushing for run flats) and brake upgrades from F22/F30 brakes. Shortwheel base, reliable N52 with 3SI 255hp 230 tqs, hydraulic steering, only Right Wheel Drive. 2013 year and earlier are the rides I seek. Nothing newer unless BRZ/GR or Miata, and dreams of GT3s. JC and DTS hope u are well, keep doing what u do, enjoying your crafts.
I am dying😂🤣😂 love the edits! "Keep the Ferrari out."
"Later on I came back." 😂
With regards to new cars being boring: in 2023, in Europe, Toyota sold more GR cars (Yaris + Supra + 86) than Prius. And I didn't expect them to announce a refreshed GR Yaris, but they did. It seems that the interesting cars still have a place, even if it's a lot smaller than it used to be.
Toyota is more of a niche brand in Europe
CT4-V Blackwing
Manual
4 door sedan
Twin turbo v6
GM Alpha platform
RWD
Usable trunk
Decent interior
Magnetic ride
Both rear seats fold down (my 2006 M35x has nothing but a porthole that takes 3 steps to open)
Decent looks
Decent tech
No sunroof!
Only real complaints are the infotainment controls on the steering wheel are laggy and a few bits of interior materials.
Edit:
Shoot! I posted just before you guys got to bringing up the CT4!!!
I’ve got my Blackwing!
It even made it to Omaha Car Spotters by none of my doing.
You even showed my color!!!
It should be illegal to markup on a car, or that the brand should shut down a dealership if it does so, just like Rolex cannot charge you more than the said msrp
@DonLee1980 So you are tired of living in a free country now? So when you sell your car on Craigslist, you shouldn't be able to ask any price you want? What's the difference? Wake up people. You might like other's freedoms taken away, but you won''t like it when yours are. And no, I am not defending car dealers, who are mostly dishonest Aholes. But freedom is for everyone or it's for no one.
as an Aussie I appreciate the commodore in the thumbnail
Now that was the most carmugeoney episode I've ever heard!
I work for a Honda dealer in Maryland, I’m in the parts dept, but our sales team does not allow anyone regardless of age to drive our cars with a manual transmission (i.e. Si, Type R, sport) even if you drive to the dealership in a manual car…and yes we ADM🙄
I think every year brings more and more choices (past and present) and I think there are better new car choices for the car enthusiast now than 5 years ago. Where I see a crisis and delimma is finding a small, lightweight choice in the new car market as time goes on. Honda, Mazda, and Toyota have great options, with Porsche being not too far behind, but choices are very limited when finding a new car under 3000 lbs. Unless manufacturers start using more lightweight components, I feel the average sports car size and weight continues to get more and more.
I love DTS! 😊 Also like Jason a lot and his reviews are the top of the top but DTS is super extremely honest in his opinions that are also very similar to mines. Hope to meet you both someday guys.
I’m 42 and respect the expertise of both of you, whether or not my own personal anecdotal experience is in contrast.
It frequently seems impossible to make any kind of nuanced statement online these days, when so many pick out the one thing they dislike (or like) and react as if it’s the only thing you’ve said. FWIW, I thought both of you made valid points last time around, even if I did ultimately share DTS’s view more than Jason’s.
This episode spurred a different angle when I was viewing it, something I’d never considered before. I’m not sure it’s super relevant, but if you’re up for some geekery, read on.
There’s an interesting parallel between the malaise era in cars and a similar decline in the world of electric guitars and amplifiers. By the late ‘60s, three of the big guitar manufacturers (Fender, Gibson, and Gretsch) were shadows of their former selves, with the real and perceived quality of their products taking a major hit. A lot of this was due to corporate buyouts and changes in management, but there were some environmental factors at play as well with dwindling supplies of desirable tonewoods and new restrictions on their harvesting and export. On the amplification side, the rest of the world was moving away from vacuum tubes in consumer electronics, and supplies of the good ones made in American and Western European factories were suddenly finite.
These conditions led directly to the emergence of what today is considered the vintage guitar market, and it was largely inspired by the sense that the new stuff was no longer better, or even as good as the stuff from a few years ago.
But then in the early to mid ‘80s, things started changing for the better. Both Fender and Gibson were essentially bought back from their uninterested corporate masters by groups of impassioned managers, and the companies looked to their own past products for inspiration on how to rebuild their businesses.
By the early ‘90s, they were back to making instruments consumers were willing to buy. The vintage market continued to grow, as you can’t put the smoke back into the Lucas fuse panel, but by that time the really good vintage stuff was out of reach for the everyday players anyway. Still, you could get something new that was pretty good again, and that was something.
Vacuum tube amps, meanwhile, not only experienced a renaissance, but advanced considerably in their capabilities with new technology, and now you could get amazing, reliable amps with multiple, footswitchable channels and a wide range of potential tones.
I’m not saying that the same thing can happen now if the automotive manufacturers just made reissues of DC2 ITRs and 993s. Understandably, the regulatory environment is different there. I just think it’s interesting that from about 1970-2010 there’s a similar trajectory in both industries regarding “how good the new stuff is.”
John Phillips' first-drive look at the Cybertruck is the only good Cybertruck journalism I've seen.
CPI has been fudged for decades to make the government and FED not look as bad as they are. That aside, in the last 3 years my monthly expenses (excluding mortgage) are up 89%. Including the mortgage, it is up 51%. My wages are only up 15% in that time.
Re the stuck in the snow topic: as a Canadian who drives in the snow all the time we know that the best car and tire combo can be stopped by a terrible driving. If a driver stops on a hill and then hits the throttle too hard he creates ice under his tires and he’s done. I’m certain that bad driving stopped that vehicle, not bad design.
Jason your reviews are one of the best out there, don't listen to keyboard warriors out there. Also great podcasts keep up with great work. And also hope to see more collaborations with Throttle House, Henry (UK Hagerty😊) and Rory Ried😊😊
So the conclusion is that regulations have killed the enthusiast car market? I'd agree, but even though you guys said it I don't think either would stand by it for some reason.
Maybe the thumbnail should be "regulations suck" instead of "dealers suck" (not saying dealers don't suck, they absolutely do sometimes).
Rant over. I guess I'm just grumpy about not having anything fun anymore. Put me in the Derrick camp and give me an '05 S2000, or an ITR, or an RX7.
I kind of agree with Jason on car market being not all bad for current car enthusiasts. BRZ in 2013 had MSRP of $26245 and in 2023 had $28,595. That's nothing, especially considering how improved it was. 2024 is slightly expensive due to added things at $30,195 but still pretty good IMO considering inflation and wages have kept up more than that at just 15% increase in price. Sure everything else comparatively went up more, leaving less money for car but on other hand car enthusiast got greedy, they want more power, 3-4 seconds 0-60 etc. Lots of other nations have suffered a lot more, India cars are triple the price now, with almost none enthusiast car.
I might be wrong but it does feel like car enthusiast culture is on the rise, especially with EV market acceleration. Hopefully there will be a future resurgence as people seek joy from of driving again.
It's just the interest in new technology. Once EVs become the norm, heaven forbid, they'll lose popularity with the general public as far as enthusiasm go. ICEs are already considered as a appliances by the general public these days despite their being thousands of interesting cars with ICEs.
In the immortal words of Bart Simpson, “Your damed if you do and your damed if you don’t! The positive from it is that I discovered Jason and the Hegarty Team.
I owned a G8 GT. Very fun car. Test drove the gxp, regretted not getting it.
I feel like a multitude of factors have caused a void the car enthusiasts market.
I feel like the performance limits of most newer cars is too high for most drivers, especially new drivers. Cars today have higher grip, more safety/performance features, better structural stiffness due to crash safety, and more power. Not saying any of that is bad but a lot of the fun of an older car is being able to push what the driver feels is the limit of the car at lower speeds. Newer cars, in general, feel safe/numb due to the features i listed. Its what he general consumer wants, so thats how cars have trended.
Older cars are fun and cool but are significantly riskier in an accident. I live my 83 944, but of a yukon denali or f150 crash into me at significant speed, i would have a higher likelyhood and having to hold a closed casket funeral from the lack of safety features and lack of a modern crash structure. So the things we as car enthusiasts enjoy, like light weight and visibility, are thrown out for crash safety, technology, isolation from the outside world.
I could keep on being a carmudgeon about how governmet regulations have made cars less interesting, due to safety and emissions standards. How the pursuit of 0-60 times, and other vehicle metrics have changed what peoples perceptions of what a car is to them. Idk its complicated. Incoherent ramble over.
42:24 cleaner? 🤣😂
Goood🎉🎉
More inserts please, if possible 😢
When I bought my DDHC there was no test drive at all. I literally bought a 100k+ vehicle having never driven it and hoping that I wouldn’t dislike it.😩
Love you guys content and the show is always worth the watch. On topic, I’ve historically lowered the bar for what car I’d aspire to own based on what I could afford. If I instead continued to compare what I can afford and what I’d rather have, I’d be too depressed to enjoy what I own at the time. Also, I’ve jumped ships and now I’m more in on motorcycles and have owned two separate bikes bought brand new in the last three years, trading in my current bike for another brand new bike next month and couldn’t be happier. Sure I’ve owned my car going on 7 years but bikes are cheaper and arguably more thrilling. Also motorcycle dealers are much more straight forward with prices on most models and brands so you really don’t have a huge problem compared to car dealers. Hopefully things stay this way
that new lense is really good, I gotta say lol
WAYMENT: Please consider the Kona N in your Hot Hatch conversations....maybe the Mazda 3 though it isn't really tuned for it. The Kona N has the dimensions of a MK7 GTI but 2 more inches of clearance....easily remedied with coilovers.
23:11 RIP Chris 😂
tbh I think this is more describing why the Cybertruck has a snow problem than refuting that it does. It's not that the car is poorly engineered, but it being a big EV with a billion horsepower requires the engineers to pick tires that compromise its off-road capabilities in favor of range, performance, etc.
I think the Cyber Truck is goofy and Elon is bad, but I love watching your videos about cars, and listening to you talk about cars, and generally just you being you. And if we ever meet, I'd much rather chat about other cars and adventures than the Cyber Truck! (this is for both Jason and Derek!)
I'm in my early 30s, I've grown up obsessed with cars. The only time I every seriously considered buying a new car was right before the pandemic. Seeing the affordable options, I took trips to California until I could find a Volvo 240 coupe. Expensive to do? Yes. Would I be happier with a Corolla or Civic? No, not the way I like to work on cars.
I have always seen dealerships as a business that preys on the people who have NO way to fix things like an enthusiast can, and people with more money than brains. Unfortunately, those people dictate what car companies see as "desirable". So now we see morons who are excited about a Cybertruck or a Porsche SUV, regarded as "car-people" because people like me are rare.
People hate change, people HATED giving up their horses for cars back in the day
Used s550 mustang gts routinely go in the 30k range. A gen 1 boosted car can be had in that range as well. Bullitts of that generation can be gotten in the high 30s. I think that the ceiling of cars has gone exponentially up both in performance and value and that the exposure via social media ruins the experience for people because they can’t have a calvo viper, a sheepy lambo, or a singer Porsche. You can have a great driving experience in a V6 6MT Accord. It’s already got a good chunk of horsepower and double wishbone suspension just get it coilovers and voila.
Yea Jason, one 23 year old enthusiast in Australia really really does want a Lancia!
I've never had any collision in my car, so I can't fathom one thing: how does rear-ending a front-engined car (and FWD one at that!) does total the car? How bad does the collision have to be to damage the drivedrain to the point it's too much PITA to repair it?
If the frame gets bent it will be a pain to repair, no matter the drivetrain
People going crazy about the Cyber Tuck getting stuck must've never tried to drive on ice/snow without winter tires. I got my A4 Quattro stuck in snow because it had summer tires on it, but my FWD Mazda with Blizzaks was nearly unstoppable. In fact, I wrote a whole blog series about how awesome snow tires are a few years back. Blizzaks literally feel like they're made out of gummy bears and sand. The hype is real.
That’s absolutely correct….. I’ve owed many performance cars but I’ve also been denied a test drive! Mitsubishi EVO ( Glassman Mitsubishi Southfield mi), Nissan 350z (Subruban Nissan Troy mi), VW Golf R ( suburban VW Troy mi), Alfa Quadrifoglio (golfing Alfa Birmingham mi), Cadillac CT4 Blackwing (prestige Cadillac Warren mi)I love cars but I absolutely hate dealerships. I’d pay extra for the ability to never interact with a dealership.
the ADM issue is caused by the manufacturers by not producing enough of the hot cars.. just make more than demanded and. the ADM will go away super fast.. i.e Civic type r and vw golf r etc
This video came out in a bit of an interesting moment because the markups are starting to go away. I saw a post of a handful bronco raptors being sold for invoice lol
I think the restomod trend really punched up the prices on air-cooled 911s. I've owned a Boxster for about 9 years and joined the PCA when I bought it. For entertainment, I have browsed the classified ads in the monthly magazine on a regular basis. 4 or 5 years ago, the only air-cooled 911 that was consistently over $40K was the last generation, the 993. Earlier generations from the 1975 to 1990 were consistently available for $20K and a car had to be a real pearl to be $40K.
But even before the pandemic, the 1989-93 generation (964) started to spike when the Singer stories hit the Web. 964s became scarce in the ads and people were asking more for them than 993s, which had been the air-cooled pinnacle. And now the restomod craze is rolling back to earlier models and it takes up the price of the marginal sale, which drives the market.
if you needed a singer to clue you into 964 greatness, you just got here.
MK7 GLI manual was the answer for me after a MK6 GTI.
I look at what people drive around me and it's stunning. I live in the Chicago suburbs so yes, salt is definitely a factor, but with undercoating with Fluid Film or Surface Shield, one can preserve an older car even driven in the salt. Like cell phones, I think the society "norm" of replacing a smart phone every couple of years also takes place with cars. Look at how many BMW's are leased. The issue with that is like our $1000+ cell phones, cars, even in the crazy market, normally depreciate. If one trades in every few years, you're losing potentially thousands, if not tens of thousands in that time and just rolling it onto the new loan. Add in high interest rates? It's a recipe for not being able to afford what you may want in life. And FWIW, the early 80's had even higher interest rates. My parents survived. But they sure as hell weren't driving around in new cars or cars that they wanted. They got the bare minimum as a mode of transportation. Again, society tells us that "we can't be seen in this car because it's old or crappy or slow, etc." I think that mentality has really ruined things as a whole, and not just in the car industry. A lot feel they need to one up each other or prove something to one another.
BUT, that's where choice comes in. Does a 30-40 year old NEED a $60k SUV or car? No. That is a luxury. I still have my 2006 GTI I bought new at 18 years old (yes, I was "the" person I'm talking about now, hindsight is 20/20) that's modifed to hell, but it's paid off. The ND is low mileage because it's my nice weather car.
Great talk! ❤
Thanks for taking all the crap that created it 😅
Derek's using 'Harvard Negotiation Project' lingo like BATNA.😅🤘🤘
Guys ! WRX ! I keep yelling at my iPad while watching this. Cheap fun. Great visibility. Subaru safety. Ski car and track car. (Probably for two laps but still). Love the convo though.