The World's Most Amazing Cars - The Carmudgeon Show feat. Jason Cammisa and Derek from ISSIMI Ep. 54
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- Опубликовано: 29 май 2022
- In this episode of the Carmudgeon Show, Derek Tam-Scott helps Jason Cammisa make a not-entirely-welcome discovery about the past of his recently acquired Honda Beat, which somehow transitions seamlessly to a discussion about homologation cars and how they are both strange and cool. Included among these are Derek’s new-to-him Mercedes-Benz W201 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth.
The main focus, however, is the homologation rally cars Derek drove on his recent trip to Europe, including the Lancia Fulvia HF Fanalone, the Lancia Stratos HF (which necessitates discussion of the Ferrari 246 Dino, of course) , the Group B-dominating Peugeot 205 Turbo 16, and Kimera Automobili’s spectacular Lancia 037 redux, the EVO37. These become the vehicles to discuss the differences between Group 4, Group 5, and Group 6, and their evolution into Group A, Group B, and Group C. No Carmudgeon Show episode is complete without a discussion of BMWs, in this case the E46 M3 CSL, which Derek drove in Switzerland.
As always, this podcast is informative and entertaining - but this one is chock full of extra information from that Hyphenated Walking Encyclopedia, Derek Tam-Scott.
If you’re going to Italy you should catch up with Davide Cironi who has a great YT channel and loves a lot of the same cars you guys do. And modern day homolgation car, the Toyota GR Yaris, you should be able to find one of those in Europe. They have sold way more than Toyota expected.
Derek drove the GR Yaris - was really hoping it to be mentioned in this podcast. I think that Jason would love that car with small modifications despite being awd.
@@KarlkEst A lot of GR Yaris owners are tweaking camber and toe front and rear to significantly improve turn in and steering response. Other one is coilovers to smooth out the busy ride but that is more subjective, some like the “rally wobble.” Very soon we will see Stage 1 tune on factory ECU to lift power from 270bhp to 300-310 which will be enough for most people on a 1280kg/2820lb car. And finally for fun, an exhaust with some real sound! That’s my plans on mine.
@@KarlkEst Here’s a Yaris fanatic (in a good way) from Switzerland: ruclips.net/user/R%C3%B6theliRacing2211
@@timhayward6833 Circuit pack with exhaust, seat lowering kit and lower-torque arm. I liked the original suspension setup.
I've seen some footage from Davide Cironi in the Revelations episode about the Miura. They should definitely collab if they have the chance
Thank you, Jason, for quoting Michelle Mouton on the Audi Quattro: "It will not turn". For decades, I've been fed Audi propaganda about the Quattro system's wonderful handling, while watching the damn things understeer like _pigs_ , on screen.
Unless it's snowing, then they dance like figure skaters
This road trip needs to be a hagerty special.😎
DTS and 190E, perfect match.
A110 is actually rear engine! Also the R5 Turbo was Group 4 and then went on to Group B. I believe there was a Turbo Maxi during the Group B era.
Sooo, just few corrections from rally nerd:
Audi Quattro did turn the rally world on its head BUT it wasn't dominant machine, or to be specific nowhere near as good as in popular "myth". In its' debut season it finished 5th. It "dominated" in only 1 season in which they scored both drivers' and constructors' championship and started losing when competitors came back with purpose build group B machines in last rounds. Their 2 earlier titles (1 constructors' and 1 drivers') were more caused by Lancia not caring about drivers' title to the point of not even participating in some rallies (some rounds were counted only in drivers' championship, they also didn't attended any round after securing title) and shenanigans with Opel's drivers' lineup due to Walther Rohl's resigning after securing his drivers' title. Audi used death of Toivonen to resign from WRC but it was clear that they weren't able to compete with mid engined machinery and the only thing that kept them in points was genuinely impressive engine. Although group of Audi engineers tried to develop mid engined quattro in Czechoslovakia, bribing local officials to keep press away. Their "undercover" programme was terminated when Audi management discovered what was going on. 80's must've been wild.
Renault 5 Turbo was build up to group 4 homologation but was later released in limited Maxi trim to spice it up for group B. Sadly it was never "top runner".
Group B homologation specials were still road cars. Group B allowed similar modification as group A but required much less cars to be produced, both per model and per its' "evolution", therefore constructors were allowed to design road cars that would never been considered in "normal" conditions.
It can be argued whether Peugeot 205 T16 or Delta S4 was definitive group B machinery, as last season of group B (1986) was riddled with tragedies (deadly accidents during rallies) and controversies (FIA's or FISA's last minute decisions, sorry but don't remember who was responsible, regarding banning development, post race penalties, lack of consistency and drivers boycotting rallies).
Alpine A110 was REAR engined, not mid engined.
Quattro was a beast for one season
Thank you! I roll my eyes every time I hear that Quattro dominated Group B when in reality it just didn't. That is even more clear if you watch period rally reports. And never mind Lancia, even on equal ground, without breakdowns, they were not always winning against rear drive Asconas and Abarths. Sure, Audi was fast and AWD was the way to go but they never made it to work as well as memories and legends want you to believe.
@@hayashishark7378 Mechanical failures, the placement of an engine and understeering of Audi's AWD system made the difference. It was very difficult car to drive.
True, you could argue with Lancia being THAT close to win the ’86 WRC - and this DESPITE loosing its top driver mid-season - had the ultimate B weapon in the Delta S4. Indeed, it was the fastest car in most speedtraps etc
The Audi built it's dominant reputation in the lower classes though, in group a it won for damn near years straight. The group B cars were proof that at the formula 1 cars of rally you still needed 4 wheel drive
I have a Stratos and absolutely love it. First time I drove it in anger it scared the crap out of me. Once you get to know it, however, and learn what it wants to do and what it doesn’t it’s terrific. It’s intrinsically and intentionally unstable, the driver’s role is to harness that instability and turn it into the ultimate agility. Sort of like a fighter plane…
E46 M3 CSL is such a special car, great to hear two people (who's opinion I respect greatly) discuss it in such a complementary way.
I don't know a lot about European cars. I still enjoy watching y'all talk about them. It's a universal language that car/ driving enthusiasts just get. I don't care what your topic is. Just keep talking about cars and driving them.
If you cant find a old Stratos, you might to find a LB STR. Its a "reimagination" of the Stratos with either a Busso V6, Toyota 2GR-FE (Evora) or either of the transverse Ferrari V6 or V8.
Its pretty much a old Stratos, built from a CAD designed space frame chassis with different engines. I thinks theres a few of them in America with the Busso V6. Its technically a "kit car/component car/replica" but its amazing. Currently there full of orders, but i think to build one yourself its £30~40k and for LB to make one its 10k more. Its a personal dream car.
We need to talk. May I DM?
Last weekend I met a guy driving a Renault R5 group B Homologation Special in Oregon. It was imported new, never raced, still all original and its almost perfect condition. He found it in a field in Salem, Oregon. 🤯
Great show! As a group B freak I’d just like to point out the Renault 5 Turbo was really a Group 4 car, originally competing with Fiat 131 Abarth etc for the titles. However it did live long enough to homologate in Group B
I watch this content to the point where I don't even catching up to the cars topic anymore, i'm just enjoying the good vibe and laughter 🌻
WOOOT, loving the new schedule!!! Missed yall for a while there.
Liked my lancia scorpion. Miss it
There's another production car with a 120 degree V6: the McLaren Artura. Funny that Ferrari and McLaren are both launching 120 degree V6s at almost exactly the same time.
Beautiful blue-black 190E, love the Euro cloth interior too. Amazing...
Wonder if extreme short wheelbase was part of Derek's experience with the Stratos. Would make the car easy to flick through tight corners but with a tendency to be unstable. Light, short wheelbase car with a lot of power would be a real E-ticket ride.
I've always felt that the stratos is at home on the tightest gnarliest European b road and nothing else
Best internet duo!
I was really hoping that DT-S would comment on the GR Yaris. A part from that loved the podcast you guys are great hosts/story tellers
Comments on modern turbo cars got me thinking - there should be additional testing to find the torque curve under no boost conditions. Not sure how best to do it but since the current torque curve is not too useful, the unboosted curve would provide a better measure of vehicle flexibility.
Just love how you both look so confused how to end these shows each time … brilliant content as always …
That fiat 131 looks so good😮💨
I'm 100% with you on the "one in the hand" idea about the Beat 👍
Love rally group B cars they where my favorite era of the sport. Great episode and I loved it.
The Stratos sounds like it drives like a fighter plane flies.
I have driven 2 Stratos and many, many thousands of miles on sportbikes. The Stratos is terrifying.
The Æ is called the “ash”, btw. Great ep!
I scrolled to check if someone else got to it first. Language nerds unite!
"Barely contained chaos"! I love this reference of the Stratos. I drove a race version of a turbo 964 Porsche that fitted that description too (massive boost and no weight). It probably falls into the Clarkson category of you knowing it sits in the garage plotting of ways to kill you...
Heavy steering? I blew a power steering pump on my 69 Mercedes 280SE. Drove it like that for two years as a starving college student without funds for a new pump.
Saab 900 turbo is fun too. Once you figure out the lag, you mat it just before your apex and let the thing pull you out of the corner. Brilliant fun.
So are you going to explore the alps more in the italian and french parts, or are you also going to switzerland and austria?
Anyway, i hope you manage to choose your time good (and stay out of any holiday traffic days), then i am sure you are going to find lot's of twisty roads to your liking with often incredible scenery.
(I am from the eastern end of the alps and there are still a number of fun roads here too, but as a fan of earlier Rallye driving there is a place i would like to go in the more western alps: the road from sospel to the col de turini.)
19:55 how about the Ford RS200?
The CSL sounds so much more like an E36 M3 or hell a well set up 325 M50.
Lovely noise.
Can't wait to see the video about the Panda 4x4!
Love it
Regarding the Panda 4x4: I still got some photos of Carlos Sainz' Seat Marbella race car at Techno Classica. Which is the Panda's Spanish twin.
Hey! Hey! It's Monday! And another show
Mirage G4 sedan rulez!!
Yamaha SHO V6 sounds great too.
4th comment in. You both and hagerty make starting the week sting a little less. - SUBARU BUG EYE Owner here... hoping you guys would cover nasty EJ20s, subarus, but im guessing u prolly won't!! its too new for carmudgoning!
If you haven't seen it yet look up the chris harris lancia video. It's fantastic
Another Clarkson quote, as to the Stratos, It's not like being in a room with a bear that's trying to kill you. Driving the Stratos is like, being in a room, with a bear, that's thinking of killing you.
First off, never condescend to Mader; he’s the emulsion that holds the team together as well as being a straight shooter! Secondly, Jason search your inner feelings, are you “towing” the company line now? Never Stop Driving! Your Ferry Godmother
Alpine A110 had a rear mounted engine! ☝
Stratos, 037…. These are the best. Homologation is NOT boring! Lol My favorite BMW is the E25; have you driven that one?
The point you made regarding modern turbos was especially fitting in the Mazda 2.5T in the Mazda3. Very quick off the line and great for squirting through traffic, but MAN was it boring when pushed hard. Anything over 5 grand and the car would fall on its face. Coming from a mk7 GLI I traded in a terrible interior with a pretty great driving experience (especially with a tune) for an amazing interior with a very lackluster drivers experience. My Miata Club BBR on order can't get here quick enough.
The handling should be due to the Stratos having a very short wheelbase while having pretty wide tires?
The Alpine A110 was rear engined as far as I know
Note to self watch in order so no spoilers...
Actually Lancia has built 493 Stratoses. They were testing the Stratos in rally events throughout 1972 and 73 and then the homologation regulation required 500 cars for Group 4. They've started to build the required amount but in the meantime FIA has changed the homologation rule for the 1974 season and decreased the requirement to be 400, so Lancia has finished all the ongoing cars but they didn't start the last 7 of the planned production. And they won 3 consecutive World Championship title after they got homologated.
WHEN is the Stratos BTS+DTS episode coming out on the issimi channel! It's been EIGHT months and the most recent Ferrari Carmudgeon podcast referenced hyphen's European excursion to interact with some Italian legends. We got an episode on the Fulvia and new Evo37, but no episode on the original stratos?
I would love to hear about how the 6r4 opel manta b400, and Celica TCT drive, the slow cars that are either na or rear drive or the king of Africa
Fingers crossed for the same powertrain to return in a revival of the Delta S4
Can you guys do a podcast on special bodied classic cars like zagato?
The 205 T16 was way too exclusive to be seen on the road in France. However you could find tons of 205 GTI swapped with the motors of the 405 mi16 or T16. A lot of them ended up in the ditch with their very light and playful rear end!
No one ever brings up how the 6r4 homologation specials drive, NA 250 mid mount are murdering horsepower is intriguing
And one of the wildest v6s I've ever heard.
Can you guys do an episode on what cars should we be considering for import? Both 25 year plus cars and soon to be 25 year old cars.
Man my neighbor got that new Mirage, dunno how they built it. lol
that 037 sounds like an old snowmobile.
Hyphen and Cammisa should do a old vs mini series y’all agree ?
Awesome episode, but my OCD brain is bothered that there is a mistake in the title and it's missing its THE. XD
Cars in japan can also get R titles of they've been modified with bodykits or new paint
The R5 Turbo and Maxi Turbo were Group B cars. I would say the Delta S4 was the ultimate Group B car. It was faster and superior to Peugeot 205 T16, it started to rule the 1986 season but the fatal acceident of Henri Toivonen at the Tour de Corse made the Lancia to withdraw from the event. They finished the season and Markku Alén was winning the title but finally FIA annuled the result of the San Remo Rally after the end of the season which led to Juha Kankunen won the title with the Peugeot.
Episode 54 where are you
The new intro really is that Jason can't say the intro
41:27 My God, what a sound that thing makes. Unfortunately I know that I actually fit inside a Fulvia (I'm tall) so this is very dangerous for me to listen to.
What is the “R” in “VR6”?
"Reihe", or inline. That makes the VR6 a V-inline engine because of its design
Jason should rename the Honda to the Beater
Put the car on German export plates circa 299€ and insured in the EU for 2 weeks
Saying nothing is going to go wrong on a mercedes benz is like saying a politician doesn’t lie.
AE I think is called “ash”?
tried to get you to listen to the engin of a motor cycle of Guy coulon, when i post the link, the message disappears!! just look for 6 cylinder motor cycle and Guy Coulon , don't forget the popcorn and let the memories flow! :)
in case it goes through , it's here : ruclips.net/video/dswkzR48FIk/видео.html
I’m likely going to get kicked in the teeth for this.. 037evo sounds like a SAAB Sonett II with a 3 cylinder 2stroke,, Fulvia sounds like a Sonett with the Taunus V4
I'm Spanish I have a 308 with 200bhp (chipped) and I call it like the Englishman
Why does Cammisa say "bolth" instead of "both"?
It's like an Iowan saying "warsh" instead of wash, regional colloquialism.
Nichts gegen Kaiserschmarrn bitte!
@58:00 : Wrong. E46 M3 sounds MILES better than any VQ.
Japanese auction ratings lately don’t mean much. A car can have an R because of an engine swap, quarter panel change from restoration etc. there’s also some very crappy condition cars being rated as 4s lately so like any other used car purchase it’s best to go off what you see
As ever 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👍
Why the hell do you pronouce Peugeot with U, It's much more E instead there ;)
Ill give 500 dollars for that salvage junkyard Beat. Ill do you the favor and take it off your hands.
an R grading in Japan means it has a history of a crash or modification. a lot of cars sold with aftermarket wings, bumpers, side skirts or other things (even if it's just 1 thing) can end up an R.
on the flip side a car with major damage history may avoid the R if the seller knows how to hide it or greases the correct palms.
basically, auction grade on an old beat means little. condition currently is king.
the mirage sedan is called the g4 if I’m not mistaken 😂talk about useless automotive knowledge
Condition R is for Racecar! Don't listen to this expert in old cars - It's just Racecar status!!
You guys should make an episode on street takeovers. This is a big deal and stupid trend that is hurting the automotive hobby more and more all the time. Car enthusiasts get put in the same category as the morons that go block a street and drift a stolen charger with guns out the windows almost hitting people that are watching around it. Just look at the new bill that California put out to get at people with loud exhausts because they assume those are the types to go to takeovers