The Full Air-Cooled Porsche 911 Story - Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep. 114
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2023
- Become an expert on the original Porsche 911 in just one hour!
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The original, air-cooled Porsche 911 Classic spanned many variations and several variants over its 34-year run. In this episode of the Carmudgeon Show, Porsche expert Derek Tam-Scott gives you everything-you-need-to-know to become an expert on the 911.
Derek starts out by talking about the original engineering, and then quickly covers the variants of the original long-hood cars, which had 2.0, 2.2, and 2.4-liter engines (though the latter actually displaced 2.3 liters.)
There were carbureted, MFI, and Bosch CIS-E (K-Jetronic) variants, even before the next-generation G-Body was launched, with a 2.7-liter flat-six and impact bumpers.
It was this version where the Carrera began - with the 2.7 and later 3.0 liter versions.
The 911 SC came later, in model year 1978, with 3.0-liter engines - and it was to be the last of the 911s. Thankfully, CEO Peter Schutz, an American, saved it from being replaced by the V-8-powered 928.
The SC was replaced with the Carrera 3.2, with Motronic fuel injection, before the original 911 was finally replaced - by the 1989 964, which was a functional enhancement but still basically the same car.
The 964 replaced the original 911's torsion-bar suspension with coil springs - and power steering was available for the first time. It used a 3.6-liter.
The final variant of the original 911 was the 993. If 85% of the parts were new for the 964, a further 80% were new again for the 993. Here, the 911 got the Weissach Axle rear multi-link suspension, VarioRam 3.6-liter, and a 6-speed manual.
Learn about all of these Porsches in this episode!
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The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network 
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I would definitely watch year by year comparison episode
Sounds like an Icons episode in the making.
What could be better than listening to the Dynamic Duo discuss air cooled 911s while driving back from Rennsport in one?!
Isn't it the dynamic(?) duo? Lol.
how come i can reply on your comment but not get the option to post a comment of my own?
did these guys block me or something? i doubt i’d have been rude cause i never comment…im watching this in youtube app on my ipad…
and whats with the eating while you’re podcasting?
you come across as disrespectful to your audience, dont you?🙄
if you think it’s not worth your time to do it than don’t…
this comes across very badly i just skipped all that portion, thanks🙄
ps: apologies to @spartacusSF for posting this under your comment 🙏🏼
Ya so that's called irony and it's akin to humor
@@DemianHutsell-rp3lp seriously 🤔
The air-cooled 911 is a packaging miracle. No driveshaft, no radiator/coolant, not even a long exhaust system, and doesn't need power steering due to no weight over the front wheels. The result is high performance in a small footprint with excellent cabin space and usability. Very elegant simple engineering.
And excellent visibility
I feel like I have 360 degree visibility in my ‘81 Targa when the top is down !
A Carmudgeon show about German cars, just in time for my German Feierabend? Is this heaven?
"Man, are we going to talk about stoichiometry? I think we are!"
- Derek Tam-Scott, Carmudgeon😆
You could finally put the TV to use as a PowerPoint presentation by DTS rather than it just being a backdrop
They could, but that would require prior planning, and we know how they feel about doing that.
Since this is still not Piëchisode for those that are still waiting, the Intercooler podcast just did an episode on him.
Though that doesn't mean Carmudgeons can get away without doing one as well.
@regularandroman also did a great episode on Piech.
Acquired did a pretty good video about Porsche with Doug demuro which obviously featured piëch a fair bit.
@@johnsterfer5906Doug DeMuro makes me want to vomit, though.
Lovely episode! And personally i would definitly like a year by year spotters guide, one can never learn too much, and i definitly learned a lot this episode!
DTS is a walking encyclopedia with a hot body and also with humble attitude :) what a majestic creature :)
As a 19 working in a Porsche dealership, it was not only be extremely interesting but also extremely helpful to be able to hold conversations with older 911 owners and actually know specifics for each year or at least each major change of the 911 (especially since most of the owners have more than a few extra years of experience on me 😅). I sincerely hope that you are able to make an episode like the one you did on the R129 however I fear you may need multiple episodes if you were to do that for the 911 😂
My favorite 2 nerds talking about air cooled 911s after just getting home? Perfection.
DTS carries the show! Cammisa eats! 😄 Excellent! 👍
this episode's
clap was not bad pretty good actually
Derek's been practicing.
How do you practice getting the clap ? 🤔
This is one of the claps of all time
@@TheCarmudgeonShowThank you guys for doing these episodes for the entertainment for car nerds like us
Maybe a shift to a snap? Not as much comic releif, but possibly more of DT-S's self confidence will be retained...possibly..
The M10 Nissan Stanza Wagon/Multi/Prairie, which started production in Japan in 1981, also has a torsion bar rear suspension. I hope you two do a minivan episode one day, as the M10 was a very important car to the conceptualization of the modern minivan, along with the Lancia Megagamma concept.
Spotter's guide episode? Yes, please!
Best description I’ve heard for a 911 is “excellence in engineering overcoming questionable design” and in my defence I have owned a air cooled (993) and water cooled (996 GT3)
Keep this level of geekiness and nerdiness, hearing / seeing you details like that amaze me, every time!!!!
Great googly moogly I would LOVE a year by year spotters guide to the 911!
Here's another vote for a year-by-year guide! For sure I'd watch that.
Though I’ve never had the privilege to own one (currently on a 2 year plan towards 911 ownership) I’ve become quite the Porsche nerd/obsessive and that’s largely thanks to you guys! LOVED this episode. The more hyper detailed talks on Porsche’s the better! Maybe another air cooled episode and an eventual on the water cooled examples would be great.
Have you driven any ? I’d recommend driving a couple examples and having a realistic idea of how these cars drive. The old ones are pretty visceral and even primitive compared to modern cars. But they are very engaging and there aren’t many vehicles like them imo.
Passenger cars with torsion bars, the Subaru Brat and EA81 chassis that was made up into the 90s was torsion rear McStrut front. Those cars are basically a Super Beetle with the drivetrain turned around inside of them. They also share a very very similar semi-trailing arm rear design with with VWs and Porsches. I even modified mine for alignment like a 944. The engine and trans of the early EA engines also looks like if someone described the aircooled vw to subaru over the phone. Torsion bars went all the way into the 2000s in pickup trucks, the Silverado was torsion bar front til 06. I believe some Peugots may have had a torsion bar suspension too up into the 2000s? But I'm not sure on that.
I would love to hear how you modified the suspension for easier alignment, as I have a EA81 wagon that needs some alignment problems massages out of them outside of factory settings.
@@benmoore2684 I can't really recommend it, but what I did was slot the spring plate holes such that the trailing arm can be moved forward and back, as well as rotated. This gives you camber and toe adjustment. Lookup how the 944 does it, that's how I did it. Probably will do a similar mod to my beetle next year.
“Looks like if someone described the VW air cooled to Subaru over the phone” - this is the best description I’ve ever seen 😂😂😂😂😂! Love it
Definitely a vote for a spotters guide episode!
I started working on 911s in a shop environment as a teen in the 90s, I really appreciated Porsche for refining the same chassis for so long!! I'm now a Saab specialist because I appreciate the fact that Saab, indeed, also designed a fuselage in the 60s and refined it into the 90s with the 99/900. Which similar to the 911, also used the same provisions for suspension, doors, glass, brakes etc... allowing the user to swap, update or backdated many parts!
You guys should do an episode discussing manufacturers who did this kind of engineering refinement, as opposed to those manufacturers (like GM) who would redesign models constantly! Was it profitable to completely retool a design instead of refining it. Perhaps it was easier to redesign than integrate, as regulations and modern needs changed. I think Jeep and Volvo had a good run as well, for example...
It’s like listening two kids talking about marbles, but some what more interesting. Fun stuff.
I think the shift action, the hvac and smooth bumpers of the 964 really changed the bad parts of the original design. ....oh and a wicked engine. my favorite! thx guys you rule!!!
The 911 spotterguide. Yes please!
That was a breathtaking display of nerdery. Bravo!
more..more!!
Some of the takeoff in value for 964s is the Singer factor. That model became a target for many of the restomod conversions. You could see the market for 964s tick up for each story on one of the new big-dollar conversions. If you look at the classifieds at PCA, used 964s generally have higher asking prices than 993s.
Yes, the 964 has the best trailing arm suspension 911. But the 993 handles better. But looks less like an early 911. A 996 drives uniquely and this may be appreciated in the future. Especially if you hotrod with newer 997/991 engine
Great episode, do a second part.
#wassergekühlt
I love listening to Derek Tam-Scott talk about cars. I feel like I learned so much about cars that have always been around and have never understood why they were designed a certain way.
Putting my vote in for more 911 content!
Hell yes give me the year-by-year identification guide, and I'd even be down for a full water-cooled 911 history lesson too
Regarding old designs, it would be great to be able to walk into an Acura dealer now and buy an early NSX. For that matter, buying a mid-90's Integra new would be an attractive proposition.
Italian tune-up is my takeaway from this episode :-D
Derek's knowledge will always boggle me
What the heck could 3.2s have as differences? On that question alone I’d love the spotter’s guide!
Also, the 964 headgasketless system is the most hilarious idea out of all of these. Good show!
Gonna be a good week!
Love this. I often wonder about the progressions of certain models.
Re: 911 Spotting Guide…Yes please! I was thinking it before you mentioned it.
Outstanding episode! Thank you Derek. I really enjoyed listening to you describe the evolution of the air cooled 911. I’ve read all of the books and many of them are nice references, but this was a treat.
Yes watching the spotting guide as soon as it shows up
Would absolutely enjoy the year by year spotters guide. My dad always tell me every year of beetle based on small differences, that type of info is super interesting to me.
I just got back from my first Rennsport Reunion. This is actually very helpful to understand many of the old 911s I saw haha
Well, as for the years: the G-wagon was only changed in drivetrain, interior and lights in 39 years. (1979-2018)
What they changed in the drivetrain were the engines, gearboxes, and switched from part time 4wd to permanent awd and at some point aded stability and traction control. And the diff locks from pulling levers to push buttons. Oh, and the tires and wheels got a little bigger but rather wider.
The lights went from lightbulbs to xenon and LED.
And the interior of the civilian versions got luxurious.
The chassis stayed the same, the size stayed the same...
I wish the angry man would eat for half the episode - listening to hyphen without interruptions is a joy. Especially on this Volkswagen episode :)
My favorite episode. Thanks
Yes please to the powerpoint, Professor Hyphen.
The Metamucil comment made me laugh out loud enough to wake my dog (its now after 4am for me), and the yr by yr guide would be super awesome, if there is anyone id like to see a definitive guide on 911`s from, its you guys, bring it on ( ...please) ❤
Id love a year by year spotters guide
Please do the year by year comparison episode!
I was hoping they'd eventually do an episode on my favorite car
Just had an idea: why don’t you guys, whenever you take a single car as the episode’s theme, at some point, record that episode while actually driving it? Sure it would be more difficult in several ways, but… It defo would bring a huge amount of possibilities when going deep down into details.
It would be wonderful - but the audio quality would be horrendous for those listening as a Podcast.
I would like a year by year walkthrough, the 911 is the definitive sports car and its not possible to know too much.
wow just what I wanted!
You should totally do this!
Loved listening to this while working on my racecar. I wish I could own a Porsche one day but even 924s are out of my budget let alone ANY 911
As a big Porsche fan with pretty much no knowledge for the most part this was an awesome show to learn from. I think a 993 is perhaps my favorite model for looks and probably if given the choice the one I'd choose of the older models.
Derek, have you ever driven a 550? And Jason, was that a fleeting Elvis Costello reference?
Super interesting episode. Thanks. I fell in love with 911s in 1978 riding in by friend's Dad's 930. I was sitting in the back and we went very fast down a country road. The sounds, smell, and feeling was all I needed to want one everyday since then.
Even if it may seem dull to do year by year I really enjoyed kind of the meta discussion on car technology (particularly emissions) through the 70s and 80s and believe that you guys would find some really good sidetracks if you were to go in to the nitty gritty on porsche
The french! They made some cars with torsion bar (rear) suspension even after 2000, like the 206, or the Berlingo mk1. While both were introduced in the 90s, they were still in production in the 00s.
And I read some speculations about the Mercedes rust issues: some microbes could proliferate in the water based paint, and that caused the problems.
I have a '89 3.2 and absolutely love it. I do my own work and down to rebuilding the engine as a 3.4 last year. It's been on several multi-state road trips and is awesome. Not a boring mile yet to be driven in it. I'm getting itchy now because I'm replacing the rear suspension bushings and can't wait to get back behind the wheel. It's that good.
I had a 996 for two years when they were super cheap. Great fun and thoroughly enjoyed it. Sold it for a small profit.
Everyone should have the opportunity to own a 911 for a short while. They're truely special sports cars the only other car I like as much is the 190E because theyre so much better than people realise.
I laughed at loud at Derek: Belly-laugh: "If anyone wants to know how to do this, it's...possible..."
I heard/read somewhere that the 993 was supposed to be watercooled. The rear suspension was another step-change in 911s and continued into the watercooled cars. I'd love to hear the 993 covered in more detail.
I would genuinely love a year by year model by model run through. I was recently listening to a podcast from the just gone Rehnsport event and it was like listening to people communicate in hexadecimal 99 this 96 that 92 the other every god damn variation and car stars with a god damn 9!
You guys rock. My favorite automotive podcast for sure!
I believe all 1984 - 1987 Civics had front torsion bar springing. They were also common on RWD Chrysler products of that era.
Totally enjoyed this. Please make the spotters guide.
You're the best🎉
Wow! This ep brought a ton of memories: my Dad and I took out the thermal reactor in our '78 320i (warping head) and so my high school buddies always joked that my orange 3 had nuclear power with that EGR light. In junior high I hated science BUT got an award for my science project (trifold board) on the twist torque of a torsion bar from a 911. Wasn't there an 80s VW group car that used a rear torsion AND coil springs? And finally my first drive in a 911 at age 17 taught me how to unlearn how to drive HWY 17 curves. Also: anyone else have a thing for parallel wipers acting as a single wiper?:)
2:32 I agree. Those are the same Kind Bars I keep in my office.
As a Australian watcher and listener; what is the fascination of the American market and sunroof’d cars? I know it’s a major thing in the beemer world to find a “slick top” car where as outside of the America I would say it would be the contrary.
You guys are GREAT!
*that thumbnail car/colour, just beautiful, and every pic insert too, ...ahhhhhh 😌the stuff of dreams
More reasons to like JC and DTS. They use a 24hr clock.
I recall being told that the 'T' in a 911T stands for 'Towne' (although we all thought it meant 'trash'...).
UPDATE! Residents in Orygun may now pump their own gas, prices somehow not affeccted...in un(?)related news; an uptick in gass station fires has been experienced...cheers from the PNW!
I just watched someone in front of me in an Oregon line spray himself in gas. It's terrifying
Can you guys do a “turbo addendum” to this? As a 930 owner who’s never really driven any of the N/A cars, I’d love to hear about the differences in how they drive, mechanicals, etc.
Can you please do the transaxle one?
Clearly, being in the classic sport car selling biz means that Derek sees a LOT of air-cooled 911s.
I think it would be very interesting
Well said. The front certainly does bounce up and down the rear warns you with a sideways feel. I felt like I was looking down the head of a big fat frog, looking between those big eyeballs. What a perfect machine my 88 was. I miss her badly. The only other vehicle that I love just as much, if not more is a LR Discovery 2.
Me! I'm the one guy. This was so awesome for me. As I am such an air cooled 911 fanboy. And want to learn as much as I can of ALL of the useless information about them. I'm on my 3rd listen just to try to get all of this information stuck in my head. So YES! DO MORE and Thank you.
There is no such car as bad Porsche, 😊😂 would love episode on Hyundai N division ❤❤❤
Renault LeCar had torsion bar suspension. I know because I had an 82 four door as my first car in high school. Perfect interior 60K miles and was only $200! 😬
Even tho it was a lunch poisoned episode it was epic
Do a 928 evolution review also!
An episode going year by year would be interesting. Plus, if you use a PPT, I'd be "a podcast. With slides" (Carmudgeon Show meets WTYP)
I've had a bit of an evolution myself on the subject of German cars, and the 911 is the single best car to encapsulate that, not least because it was the car I lusted after most in my formative years. I was a fanatic when it came to German cars.
But after the tragic loss of my 1974 Karmann Ghia, my next car wasn't a VR6 Corrado or a MkIV GTI. Instead, it was a 3rd-gen Acura Integra, and once I got hooked on what Honda was doing in the '90s, I quickly lost my taste for German cars. I was still a fanatic, you see. I was a fanatic for an impossible ideal: the idea of the car that is absolutely superior in every possible respect. Suddenly the MacStrut suspensions, the air-cooled, 2-valve engines, the applied-with-a-shotgun switchgear, and the less-than-Japanese reliability were simply intolerable shortcomings. I had once believed in the myth of German infallibility, only to replace it with another paradigm of automotive perfection. I came to hate all things German in my zeal.
And then something happened. Maybe I mellowed with age, or maybe cars kept getting simultaneously faster and less engaging. Or maybe it's that I moved back to California and started driving in the canyons. Whatever the reason, I eventually stopped demanding perfection, stopped looking at things in absolutes, and started to just be able to appreciate cars for what they are. And when I did that, I found that my affection for the 911 was renewed. Not because of myths and ideals, but because they're fun and they have character. Because I no longer require every car I like to be flawless. I only require them to be lovable.
It's too bad I spent so many years nursing my biases. I probably could've had a really nice SC or 3.2 Carrera when they were still at the bottom of their value curve. But it's never too late to start over. Maybe someday the right one will come along. If it does, I'll love it for the right reasons this time.
I was a bit surprised that there was not even a mention of the 912 or 912e.
Put off watching this one becuase I'm so sick of hearing about the 911. But this has got to be one of the best episodes yet. Jason, let the Tam Speak! more often.
I think the turbo twist wheels were one of the few parts that were brought over from the 993 to the 996.
The 996 Turbo Twist wheels were actually a different design; I think they were called Turbo Twist IIs, and they're a bit chunkier visually. Though one thing that transferred was the hollow spoke technology with both Turbo Twists (the non-Turbo models that got turbo look wheels didn't have the hollow spokes though)
@@Trendyflute cool! didn't know that! Thanks!
Seemed like the same four-spoke steering wheel might have also carried over from 993 to 996?
Mr. Ih8evry1 and Monsieur Hyphen, greetings!
Here's my entry for the upcoming Q&A episode if it doesn't suffer the same fate as the elusive Piechisode.
Can we have an episode on the following topic:
Top Gear (in its 2003-15 incarnation) and its impact on motoring and society at large. Clarkson, say what we may about the man but as a global phenomenon, he (and TG) is undeniable. Despite all the humour involved, he was great at identifying would-be-great cars (LFA, previous Vantage) from the marketing faff and his outspoken and blunt character meant he didn't shy away from calling manufacturers out. His reviews in Sunday Times Driving are surprisingly spot-on and just as entertaining. Yes, sometimes TG was also blamed of having an agenda. Sure, the man might have his biases like we all do, but let's focus on the automotive stuff that he pioneered and took to such dizzying heights.
2. Additional request: a brief discussion about sporty cars (mostly hot hatches that US never got) from French brands Renault, Peugeot and Citroen. More pertinently, your views on the new Alpine A110. Would u have one over a Lotus ( if it wasn't turbocharged and auto-only and didn't have EPAS).
Is it 9-96 or 9-9-6? From 993 onward I have always said the latter, but 911 naming would suggest the former.
Great episode guys! Sorry for the slight correction but it’s 12 litres of oil. And in the 3.2 carrera the DME relay seems to fail fairly often especially in the convertibles and targas, an experience I’ve had. They tend to leak water and flood underneath the seat. Also the 964 being modified heavily by retromod companies have made the 964 more scarce compared to the 993. Plus the 964 silhouette is still the original 911. I think this is why the values are going to overtake the later cars.
I've never put 12 liters of oil in my 3.2 Carrera EVER. While that may be their peak capacity, you never put in that amount of oil when changing it. Do that and you'll be running a smoke screen down the highway until the extra 1.5 liters burns off...
Also, while I carry a spare with me at all times, I'm still rocking the original DME relay on my car. How do I know? It says "Made in West Germany" on it. Carry a spare with you and it's a non issue.
If you drain from the block and the tank it’s above 11 litres. But if you know what your doing, you buy 12 litres, which you need, put 11 into it and you check the level until it’s enough. Never had smoking ever in my experience.That pretty obvious consensus to most enthusiast who have been around these for 30 years or more, like I have. As for the DME, knowing that you carry a spare shows a obvious common issue with them. Depending if your car is a coupe, convertible or targa that makes a difference. With the open tops plus climate your living in. The moisture in the air and electronics don’t mix and will cause premature damage. But again pretty obvious, hence the description of my scenario.
@@malanne1 yeah, we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on the oil. I’ve never put more than 10 1/2 liters of oil in my car, ever. Apparently I clearly don't know what I'm doing, but the engine hasn’t seized up on me once! (Whew) The fact that I carry a spare relay is because I know if it shits the bed it’ll strand me and I drive my car across the country and in rallies. It never has. The fear that it’s a problem would be due to the endless forum and social media posts about it. Kind of like the fear of IMS, bore score, and D chunk in 996s and 997s, respectively. I MUST be one of the lucky ones with my 997 🙄. Daily driver, even in the winter, supposedly the worst offender!
Your car is a coupe right? I drove my 88 targa as a daily through the winter when I was 19. When it failed. Make sure you hang on to the spare.. good luck with your 997.@@MH-ev3wr
I can think of only 2 drawbacks with a 911. I am fortunate to have owned 3 before they became unobtainable for the average person. Back when I owned one most everyone who said something to me when I was out and about would first say Porsche, nice car must be nice or somebody is rolling in the dough. Always something derogatory or a compliment followed by animosity. The second is like Derek said is the current price. Other than that when I hear an air-cooled 911 I get al tingly and turn into a child. The car I had the biggest love hate relationship with was the 76S that was built a euro spec engine with Weber carburation. Love the sound and how alive it was when you really grabbed it by the scruff and drove it hard but hated when you were bought in city traffic with a engine that would load up and run like shit. But of the 3 it’s the one I would own again in a heartbeat.
I drive an ‘81 911SC and I definitely HATE driving it in traffic, esp. in summer! People generally love seeing it and it’s a ton of fun on an open stretch of road.
The thing that kills me is that the people accusing you of being rich for owning one are the same dipshits who spent $75K on a new truck or roll up in a $65K SUV.
@@MH-ev3wr no doubt . They have no concept at all
@@MH-ev3wr Yep, if I spent "new truck" kind of money, I could have my '81 911SC plus my daily 240 wagon, and enough left over to buy another nice vintage car or two LOL
Doesn't the current Mazda 3 have torsion beam suspension?
"Imagine being able to walk into a dealership today and buy a car that is 35 years old" lol what's up @ Nissan Frontier and Nissan Z
A Porsche show. Yet another missed opportunity for the Piechisode.