The G87 M2 can't compete with a Dino - The Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 96
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2023
- This episode is about the new G87-chassis 2023 BMW M2 - except, it's not. Jason spent a week with an M2, and it coincided with doing a video on the Ferrari Dinos - the 206, 246, and 308 Dinos.
What happened, Jason admits, is that the M2 is a perfect example about how the automotive world has gone in the wrong direction, prioritizing isolation and speed above the experience.
Measured against its modern peers, perhaps the M2 is okay, but every enthusiast owes it to themself to try some old experience-first cars.
Derek Tam-Scott exercises his prodigious history muscle and the boys lead us through a history of the redheaded-stepchildren of the Ferrari lineup - the 206 Dino, 246 Dino, and 308 Dino. And how that "less-than" name (Dino) actually was the highest honor possible: the cars were named after Enzo's fallen son. 
Авто/Мото
I'm the button for those who want the 100th episode to be a Piech episode.
YOU BEAT ME BY ONE SECOND
(or 43 minutes but who's counting)
I was watching a video about the Chiron recently and the dude mentioned Piech but failed to pronounce his name correctly in catastrophic fashion. He pronounced it “peach”, like the fruit. Ferdinand “Peach”
I immediately left the video.
The Piech-pisode
Drown me in 5 cylinder talk
Your acerage english speaker on RUclips doesn't seem to give two shits about pronunciation. The way they butcher Hundayi makes me cringe even harder than when they mispronounce Porsche once again.
Fun fact, Carol Shelby considered Dino one of his best friends and maintained until the day he died that if Dino had lived longer the road cars would have been significantly better, since he (Dino) was actually passionate about road going sports cars.
"With the Countach, Miura, Boxer, the car never really disappears, you're devoting so many of your mental processing powers to working around the idiosyncrasies; and there is a rightness to the Dino where it disappears into the background because it is an extension of yourself; and you are just driving." That is SO well put, Mr Hyphen.
I love that you put the one good shot of the porky new M2 as the thumbnail, talk about it for 5 minutes and then spend 50+ minutes talking about old an Ferrari. This is what makes my Monday morning!
I literally came here to see how many people screamed at me in the comments for doing exactly that! :P
@@JasonCammisa thank you for that. That thing, IMO doesnt deserve screen time. Ik you hate the F80 M3 too, but idk man. As someone who grew up as a teenager with the F80, it's always been a great car to me. To me it sounds really good with maybe a akrapovic or something like that. The seats are fab.I would have a 6 speed, cloth seat, sunroof delete one any day of the week. And idk, it did weigh less than the E90, and it looked way better than the E90 IMO. Proper bulldog stance. Like a hotted up 2002 or something like that. They have moved away from that sadly. And as a design student, I think the grilles are not even the worst part about it. It's that the rest of the car looks like a slightly buffed up toyota camry(Talking about the G80 here) Even the taillights look similar. I don't like any of that. It's the good ol "50 year old designs cars he thinks 20 year olds want but actually, the only thing 20 year olds can afford is E36's."
@@JasonCammisa Keep doing what you're doing. We're all here because we love it!
I'm just surprised you and DTS managed a whole episode without mentioning a Mercedes.
@@JasonCammisathat's full-on Adam Sandler level stuff
Agree
"The Stratos is .... Mechanical Chaos" - DTS, 2023
How beautifully succinct
JC, please keep the original/dark/sad tone of the Dino revelations, u have such a bandwidth, fan of your work Sir, I thank you. Also would have been nice if Ferrari made a road going V10.
Agreed. When a funny person gets serious, it brings a different type a weight to the topic…a tool Jason has earned the right to use in his toolbox.
when even the fucking youtube comments are this well thought out, perceptive, and convincing, you know the maker of the thing has done a good job
Derek’s initial response to Jason saying new M2. Yep, facts.
We stopped worrying about the feel of a car and started worrying about who was fastest around a ring or to 60. I'm not sure that's a good thing.
But how many people can have a chance to set a standard for the feeling of a car? With how things have evolved, young car enthusiasts barely had any time to spend on an old car, let alone multiple ones.
@@jkliao6486sheesh crazy to think good hydraulic power steering will be a lost/unknown sensation for a lot of future enthusiasts. And then ICE 💀
This episode was well timed with the roadtrip that Thomas and James from Throttle House did.
We need DTS to drive a GR86/BRZ asap. If he really considers selling his C43 to buy one afterwards, that would be podcast-entertainment at its finest.
i think the fake engine sounds would ruin it for him
55:05 lmao this close up of Jason just nodding as Derek just talking away about the startos is incredible.
I think the Mazda K series V6 should also be considered as a good V6. That 1.8 might not make a ton of power, but there's something special about the way it sounds. Same goes for the larger displacement examples.
omg thank god i’m not the only one who recognizes how good this engine sounds
Yeah I had a 2.5L KL-DE in a Ford Telstar. So silky smooth. Sounds like it could rev forever (and it kind of does with rev cut at 7500rpm plus) even though it doesn't Really breathe past 5.5k.
It's almost rotary like in its smoothness at high revs
Love the KLs, super smooth because they had a very rigid block design, and because they're smaller displacement and short stroke (they're all oversquare) piston velocities are totally mellow all the way up to the stock 7000-7500 RPM redlines. KLs apparently have rod ratios of 1.86 which is pretty motorsport-ey, and the 1.8/2.0 liter motors are 2.01which is like F1 sorta rod ratios. The fundamental masses and geometries, packaged in a rigid block, make the K-series super smooth and super revvy. And they do sound pretty gnarly when they're opened up!
Writing this at 9:23 in-- if I don't hear a reference to an old mercedes this episode I'm gonna be sad.
Edit: 10:03 first reference!
Came here for the laughs and M2 comparisons, and also got a golden story on Enzo and his son Alfredo as an added Easter egg. What a story, poor Enzo.
Can't believe the 308 GT4 is 3,025 lbs. That seems heavy for the era.
I really need to save these for later and not burn through them the second they come out because I end up listening to each one 3 or 4 times. Especially during driving season when throwing this on in the E30 just feels right.
Just started binging on Spotify....for the third time.
The greatest Dino was the 206S race car; it was the little sister of the 330 P3/4, and even more beautiful. Then there’s the Stratos, the Fiats, the other racing Ferraris, and finally the road cars.…. I have a ton of all of them in 1:64 diecast form!
Im glad you brought up the NA 2zzge, I remember you saying you didn't like the sound and my friend had a MRS with a 2zz swap and it sounded orgasmic. I also remember you saying you don't like the s54 sound and I was wondering if you could go into a little more detail at some point.
I love Adam Sandler sense of humor
Having just taken delivery of my GR86 I ordered almost because of your episode on it Jason, I’m so glad you mention in the same sentences as half a million dollar Ferraris still. 🥰
I love how they talk about the M2 for like two minutes and the whole episode is about how much better the Dino Ferraris are. Don't ever change, Carmudgeon.
I just bought a GR86 and hearing Jason say that at the end 🤌 chefs kiss
congrats they are impossible to get here in the UK at a reasonable price
oh thank god you like 2ZZ noises in the NA elise, I was so confused as to why you thought it was uninspiring
Derek, is extremely knowledgeable with the car history. Its amazing as well for as young as he is, all the cars he has driven or owns. What is his background to have all these cars?
They did an episode discussing it awhile back, basically just grew up with car loving parents and went from there, worked at a dealership as a youth and then continued with it as he grew older (I believe he also said he went to college for civil engineering but I might be misremembering it’s been a while since I watched that episode)
@@griffins750 I will have to look that episode up. Extremely interesting.
Young ? Isn't hyphen actually 93 😅
@@bradh7472 Yeah the title is something along the lines of “How to be an Automotive Journalist” or something like that, like I said it’s been awhile so that might be off a little but it should be close enough to where you can search for it.
@@tonyclewes8 Well yes, but this was back when he was seven…
Seven hundred fifty months old, or 62 1/2 if your fancy 😂
Yeay... they're are back !
Jason you need to try out my 1977 308 GTB. I think you’d find it a lot more similar to your GT4. The 77 was pre catalyst and pre US emissions cams. So it had the same engine and exhaust setup as your GT4. The 78 and later cars had cats and US cams. So I think you’d love the 77 GTB.
Solid episode gents!
Nothing like a little Carmudgeon to get through monday payroll.
It's crazy how niche the views on cars espoused in these podcasts are, compared to how most journalists/youtubers describe old cars. Most say that cars didn't really start to handle well until about the 90s, and that cars from the 60s feel like death traps with awful ergonomics and no brakes.
Great job guys. Now I feel the need for a 246 Dino. C'mon Lotto!!!
Carmudgeon merch? Where are my Carmudgeon mugs and hoddies?
I am inclined to include the VR6 in any discussion of joyfully entertaining 6-cylinder engines.
I'm lucky enough to have an early 308 GTB and 246GT in the garage. Both cars are mechanically perfect so it is easy to compare them. The 308 feels like an evolved 246 in just about every way and they each have their own charm, positives, and negatives. I can't really choose between them and am happy that I don't have to :)
In the past Jason has said the 2zz has no personality and me and my Toyota Matrix XRS felt kind of hurt by that but I took the hit and accepted that I have never driven a spicy K20 which he compared it to. I always thought that my 2zz has a lot of scream and knuckle whitening quality and would be a neck snapper with a good exhaust. I feel validated that Jason now agrees :^)
They're quite different. K series feel a lot more linear whereas the 2zz is very bipolar in its power delivery
2ZZ feels a lot like Toyota's B18C, not quite as cool to drive and listen to but nearly there and available in more modern, more accessible cars. The K20 is a step better of an engine overall, and they also sound cool except in person they give a piercing dental drill sound that hurts my ears (I've never heard this in any online video, but I've never missed it IRL). Overall 2ZZ is a super cool, fizzy motor that's also quite reliable and probably one of the most exciting performance motors you can get your hands on today, given the lower price of Celica GT-Ss and Matrix XRS/Vibe GTs compared to a good RSX Type-S.
Hopefully someone here can mention this to Cammisa, or he'll see it. I've just pored through pics of the various exhaust manifolds across this range of v8, and I cannot find one that features a change away from the "short tri y, long tri y". The "short" one being on the side nearer the bumper, the "long" being near the driver. In all cases, the "long" one goes longer as two before dropping into 1. If there is a pure collector one out there, I can't find it. Love the show!
I see ya. I’ve heard this from a couple people since this episode went live. So, I guess the Australian (?) magazine was wrong? I’ll look more into it once I’m home from Villa d’Este!
Please keep the dark tone for the Dino episode. It’ll be fitting for a car like that.
Jason, you need clownshoe built by me. Mostly carbon, very light weight, with nice bits on the kinematics. A truly transformative experience, a real sportscar that can be driven with gas pedal to the metal, and extremely rewarding. At stock you would have no idea but with such modification and ~1100kg weight, a best experience.
I feel like the 5V 2.7L TT Audi V6 is always overlooked. Those things uncorked sounds god damned amazing. Reliability gremlins aside. lol
What about the V6 in the NSX/NSX-R?
The Columbo V12? I'm not a big engine dude or Ferrari dude, but the Columbo is from 1947. It was race engine, and Enzo wanted a racing team, road cars were not his dream. If my memory is working properly. It's a silly engine, TINY. I adore it.
I’d be curious if Derek’s opinion of the pininfarina 308 would be changed if he got to drive Matt Farah’s car after the meticulous work done by Donnie. Opportunities for crossovers of the two podcasts as well. Would be good content.
Farah has a 328, not a 308. 328 is a vastly better car.
@@thehumanoid6543 thank you for the clarification. My mistake
A fiberglass 308 is supposed to be superb
@@115jwalker what is actually supposed to be superb is the italian market 2 litre turbocharged V8 which sounds like a proper racing motor.
@@ChrisJackson36 np
best intro in a while
took 5 seconds
Interesting that Mr. Hyphen compares Evora to modern 911. Because Lotus I think basically benchmarked 996 and made it better.
plus the evora doesnt have massive engine failure and doesnt have a interior made of halfords trim.
As Ing. Materazzi said "206 is a Ferrari, 246 is a FIAT".
YESSSSSSSSSS THAT VVTLI JUST KICKED IN YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The the Nissan GT-R VR38DETT is also a good V6.
Sounds like ass, they're talking about sound
I remember when 246 Dino was 30-50k in 2003-2004 😂.
They were not in great shape but absolutely WOW.
Wondering where the NSX fits in this list...
If you ever find yourself in the Atlanta area, come drive my euro carb 308 GTB. Completely different world from a QV. I promise you'll like it....maybe more than your Gt4 :-p
jason you want a shooting brake GR86 thing. why not import an E81 130i from mexico or something for the straight 6, hydraulic power steering, and the sub 1300kg weight if you take the back seats out to make it a proper shooting brake
It’s not “enthusiasts” that created this bloated, lifeless sports car problem; it’s corporate greed, marketing bs and regulations. This is why we buy used shitboxes and mod them. 😊
Which is why car companies don't make them unless you have 100k + burning a hole in your pocket for a toy and then used prices go up
AP Physics be making me feel that B- to A curve
While it sounds like a box of rocks falling down some straits, the Buick 3800 cannot be ignored in the conversation of best v6. Any mechanic in the US, Canada or Australia will praise the 3800 for its Toyota like dependability. It also came in supercharged variants and has open wheel racing heritage
3800s are easy to respect...hard to love.
I'm just wondering if all this shitting on the Boxster will come back around the same way it did for the Dino.
And while I'm saying that, it sucks I probably will miss that boat but take a look at E36 M3s too. Hated for ages until people come back around.
Value wise? Look at 912s. I rest my case at that point, it's making me wonder how dailyability is a plus point on a Dino but a big minus on a Boxster for not being "an experience"
Just leaves me curious on getting into a S or an early '97 2.5 built in Stuttgart before it's too late.
Side note: this is making me think back to the Top Gear budget supercars challenge and Clarkson clowning on Hammond for buying a GT4 but Hammond iirc ended up owning that car for a while!
I will say, driving the 2007 Mk5 TSI my aunt gave me as my first car and my dad's old 1991 316i E36 it's... I told myself when I was trying to get her to give it to me instead of junking it or giving it to my uncle's dimwit step-son that the power would be so intoxicating it'd be hard to get bored of it. And it's a Golf so the chassis will be best-in-class and the ride would be plush compared to the BMW.
We run into a problem here.
It's a twin-charged 1.4 so there's supercharger noise, there's turbo noise, we all know by this point the 'mudgeons hate the M4x series 4 bangers that BMWs had but the vibrations, intake and mechanical noise, there's just no contest. It went from being in it for the power to being in it for *just* the power. It gets up and goes but the more you rev it, the less noise you get.
Bombing around town until like 4k with the supercharger is a better vibe than revving the damn thing out.
There's so much isolation between 2007 and 1991 it's hard for me to imagine how raw a 60s Ferrari must be like.
Value wise...I'd consider an E-Type at 70-80k vs a 308 GT4 personally because it seems to get all of the things done while also looking great to my eyes.
Really makes me wonder how great of an experience a GT4 is to be worth as much as it is but deliver what sounds like 90% of the experience.
Very interesting episode!
Yup, 986 Boxster is hugely underrated. But I don't think that's going to change any time soon. 987.1 Boxster S is stellar value too. Not as transparent as the 986. But still a great driver's car and a stellar all round ownership experience for the money.
1.4 twin charged? Mate isnt that a euro special?
Jason, let's say I do not have half a million to spend on a car, because I do not 😉, but instead I have 70-80k, what would you say would be the car to get.
I do have an IS500 now and I love it, but I would love to hear of some more "old school" suggestions.
I have a question for the ages. Why has there never been a boxer 10
The best I can tell is that it would have near perfect primary and secondary balance.
I'm kind of confused here... In the Hagerty video about the G8x M3/M4 Jason was gushing over those cars and their phenomenal handling and performance. Now they basically took an M4, made a short wheelbase version of it, called it the M2, and it's garbage? Help me understand.
I commented on a previous ep where jason was complaining about the supercharged 2ZZ in his elise to mention that supercharging/tuning them ruins the character of that engine by killing the intake noise and I'm feeling extremely vindicated right now
I would have thought the revelation episode for dino had been out for a while, because I have this strong deja vu feeling of hearing Jason saying sth about why Enzo would put the name Dino on a "fake" ferrari.
If you want a truly unexpected sound experience, cut the muffler off a Jeep Wrangler V6. You'll discover that Chrysler gave it equal-length headers (I forget which years they did this), and it sounds glorious.
lol. All that pentastar noise
Mazda K-series V6 from the ‘90s? The fifth good V6?
Someone else mentioned the mazda k series in the comments.
You said it's episode 95 but the title and thumbnail say episode 96, boy, I really hope someone got fired for that blunder.
I remember back in 2000s car journos compare dino with camry."Whats the point of sports car if i cant overtake a people mover camry" thing
❤
YOU FORGOT ABOUT 3.8 LAMBDA ENGINE 😢😠
3500 dollar book, Holy Crap that’s more then what I bid on a Honda CB750 on BAT.
Dino is great and Scuderia 430 might be the best modern Ferrari.
The M2 really was a red herring lol. Which is fine, I mean I would’ve clicked if it was up front about Dino’s anyway lol
Jason, I'll trade Elises with you! I've got a 2008 in fantastic condition, but have been thinking about switching out to an SC.
Ha! What color, miles, location, etc. (YOU ARE A BAD INFLUENCE!)
2008, Silver, 6k miles, Minnesota, perfect condition, no modifications.
IH8EVRY1 MN plate can be acquired in advance if needed.
@@JasonCammisa get the Stage 3 exhaust. I have this on my SC and compared to my old ‘05 NA with Larini, it blows the pants off it. It really opens the engine up and changes its personality for the better. Do it! 😁
I can't wait to purchase my G87 M2 with the carbon buckets. I just want luxury and speed
You will love this car.
Woo
25:39 It was a cheaper car, and he didn't name it a Ferrari Dino. That's why it's considered lesser
I'm not sure how much you guys pay attention to VINwiki, but they just released the interview of Ben Collins as the Stig. As europhiles I thought it would be interesting to you.
I really wish Derek hadn't internalized the hyphen namesake. It feels a bit sad.
Talking about good v6s and ignoring the vr38???
does it sound that great though?
@@FenderUsa its literally one of the best sounding engines ever!
@@zhnkbr I don't agree! The turbos rob it of its sound quite a bit
The G87 M2 can’t compete with a Mk1 or Mk2 Golf GTI.
If I can't operate common controls for radio, car dynamics, and climate control by feel, I'm not buying the car. WTF do car manufacturers take that crap away and make you remove your attention from the road to operate your car's features, while government and everyone else gets on to drivers for looking at their phones while driving?
I understand the old stuff is much more enjoyable to drive and the new M2 doesn't have any joy left in comparison with old stuff. For me safety is an issue of importance and with old cars that's just terrible. What do you think are the most engaging 'safe' cars to drive? I guess from around "05 ncap was around a couple of years and any car since that time i consider to be safe.
Old M2 is really good. I own a last gen 240i with a stick and its chipped to 350 hp. Absolute delight anywhere. And it has all the airbags and comforts you need.
@@thehumanoid6543 i drive a giulia Quadrifoglio myself and love it. Just curious what the rest of the options are. I think 1M is probably one of the best of the "safe" aria.
@@dirkcuypers6669 That is a gorgeous car. They didn't sell that many unfortunately. That V6 is a hell of a performer and a character filled motor too.1M is out of the race for me. Mainly because idiots sell it for 100k and put 2 miles on it. Get a first gen M2. Absolutely wonderful car. It's a 1M, but better in any way. You can probably get one for between 25-35k now. And at 1/3rd the price of the 1m, its a much better value too.
maybe you should let your wife drive and you can be all safe and happy in the backseat?
@@qna95B grown up reaction if you ask me. My children are in the backseat so i guess i can't sit there. That's also the reason safety matters to me.
Having been born poor. I don't know whether I can drive any of these cars. I feel very disheartened that getting a decent car to indulge my inner car fan will never be accomplished. Kind of makes me sad to think about.
mx5/miata is the answer
This guy would rather be at a wealthy banquet
About the V6 thing, I get it. I don't have such a strong bias against V6 engines themselves, but the way Cammisa talks about them is pretty much the same way I've felt about MacPherson struts for a long time now. Do I know that there are cars out there that make them work? Sure. But something about knowing the compromises inherent in the design, plus the fact that such superior (at least on paper) alternatives exist, it's just sort of a mental block I have, a thing I don't want to accept.
Then again, it seems like that's changing lately. It's not like there are a lot of choices left in accessible fun cars anymore, let alone affordable cars with a double wishbone setup. Maybe it's pragmatism, or maybe I'm tired of being picky about technical details, but I find myself caring less and less about specifications these days. The idea of using a suspension architecture intended for economy cars in six-figure "sports" cars still strikes me as a bit of a ripoff. I guess I don't care as much about new six-figure cars as I used to either, though.
I appreciated the potential of McPhersons a lot more when I learned about turning my MkIV VW GTI back in the day. For as much flak as they car got in the enthusiast press for being a bit soft, it actually had a very well thought out geometry that gave impressive grip and good transient response. Improving the handling of that car meant relatively minor increases in spring stiffness and damping, stiffer soft points (bushings mounts etc.) to minimize deflection, and it was a champ with near-stock geometry at near-stock ride height; more lowering would've ruined it. The geometry changes during the stroke of the suspension but you can tune that camber curve to give desirable handling traits throughout the suspension's travel. Boxsters/Caymans have always been struts at 4 corners and they're consistently considered some of the best sports cars on the market. Struts aren't inherently bad, if anything a lot of their reputation comes from lazy tuners who want to lower cars without understanding the geometry implications of changing the ride height. The designers who understand the dynamic machine get packaging benefits from well-tuned struts.
Struts aren’t necessarily inherently bad, but they are inherently inferior, and it’s a lot more than just lowering the car. From an engineering standpoint, they don’t offer the range of motion necessary to maintain ideal geometry under compression. The use of the damper body as a structural component means struts flex much more under side loads (i. e. cornering), and the design requires a stiffer structure because impact forces are transmitted more directly to the chassis through the lack of upper control arms.
Technically speaking, the only advantages to the design are suitable for economy cars, but it doesn’t offer anything but disadvantages from a performance standpoint.
However, they work well enough when the car is lightweight. And that’s the thing. In a small, simple, lightweight, cheap car, they’re fine. I don’t care anymore.
I’d still feel like I wasn’t really getting my money’s worth buying a Boxster with struts on all four corners. To me, that’d be about like buying a new Boxster with a 914 engine. I’m not willing to accept it at that price point, and I couldn’t possibly care less about how good the numbers look on paper.
On the other hand, what else would I get that compares with the Boxster as an overall driving experience? I mean, sure, I’d shop around, but the only thing I can think of that would also offer double wishbones is a Lotus. And, eh, maybe I’d like that better. But … maybe not?
Way too much talk about Dino’s.
The public is not interesting in these vehicles fellas.
you dont speak for everyone my friend. i thoroughly enjoyed that conversation
First!
Funny how y'all talk about the 206/246 being an instant hit with reviews while the 308 wasn't well received until revisited years later. Could be on to something...
"Changed the formula completely", "crazy, severe, angular, 80's almost", "appears visually massive", "acquired taste, took me years to come around", "drives even better", "engine is a monster", "more stable", "sh*t ton more fire power".
Let's revisit the G87 in a few years...
you sound real salty, everyone sh*tting on your dream car G87? 😂
The G80 will be well received only if bmw continues to keep making worse cars. 2019 was probably the last year for real m cars. F80 M3 stick, M2 comp. Now it's just i4's which are worse than the equivalent tesla and the xm which looks like a condom that was pulled out too aggressively.
Even without knowing about how his son died, i would not have thought Enzo Ferrari, (or any other guy like him) would have named something he himself deemed not worthy to be a Ferrari after his son...
(If parents aren't proud of their children, they don't publicly name stuff after them, they are quiet about them. And so if they aren't proud of a product, they certainly don't name it after one of their children)
Always like the looks of the "old", round Dinos.
As for V6, i had a Mercdes Diesel V6 and the only "negtive" thing was that it didn't sound exciting.
New M2 is some hot shit🔥🔥🔥🔥PLEASE BURN IT🙏. In fact the entire M range right now is built for the "Wrap dem cars innit" crowd. Hence, the "polarizing design"(which means that it appeals to people with too much money and too little taste). I know you hated bmw's post 2011 cammisa. But for me that seems to be the perfect era. 2011-2016. F10 M5. Came with a stick. Monster of an engine. RWD only. F80 M3. Best looking M3 since the E46 IMO. Manual too. Great engine which actually did sound like something unlike the new G80, which sounds like a fartcan. Even the 2012 X5 was.....kind of a good looking car. And then the 1M and the subsequent 1st gen M2. Which I think are both the best bmw's and the essence of M cars. Even the 135i was good. Now it's "Cinema Screen" here and "bronze finished knobs" there but bmw has lost all its sheen for me.
Agreed that was a good era for X5s, X3s, F87 M2s. The F80 seemed to need until MY2014 to get good but then they were after that. I can't dig the F10 though, or any 5-series post-E60 (itself a flawed, but mostly compelling car). F10s is when 5-series became as big and as bland as 7-series and I don't know why they did that to the 5, or the 7 🤷
3,900 lbs for the M2… hmm
My ‘15 Camaro 1LE is 3,920
I wonder how they compare. The Camaro is a lightly modified V8 riot 🤣
666th like hmmm
Im a big fan of you two
I just have one request, but please no offense ok?
For some of us, English is our 2nd language and sometimes...Jason speaks soooo freaking fast...its hard to understand....so I know you are too old (lol) to change your speach habits...but can you try just a little? Thanks in advance!
Oh how bmw has fallen. It’s not nice to hear when the successor to what was widely regarded as the best M car of the era, to become so much worse that what it used to be.
its what happens when you hate your customer base
@@qna95B that's what happens when the board asks the marketing how they can make sure the new M2 will sell better than the previous one... to which, the marketing answers: simply, we broaden up the taget audience. #problem solved.
Not A Real Ferrari
(and never will be 🙂)
So by your definition a purosangue is more of a ferrari than a 3 litre flat plane crank V8 open gate manual mid engine sportscar?🤡🤡🤡🤡clown moment
Ferrari=boring
drive numbus, aptera/nobe , gmat43,