I am honestly shocked, that even with VVT you can get the same low end manners as a cam with 50 degrees less duration. That’s a whopping duration change. Well done.
Same here, I went from sub 200@0.050 to a 234/255, and made peak torque 500rpm earlier also lifted peak power from 6300 to 7400rpm. Went from a 12.3@112 to a 11.8@117.8 just from cams, n/a. Valve events can do amazing things if you get them right, Duration is merely target rpm band, the magic is in the ICL and ECL
This isn't even remotely close to surprising, much less shocking, to anyone who knows cam design. The only event that really matters is IVC. Everything else has disproportionately less effect. This test is just another solid proof of what actual cam designers have known for a very, very long time.
If I did the numbers right, the peak specific torque is 85 ftlb/L. That is an amazing result! Well done! Times are tough. Mr. Garage 4AGE has spent heaps of time, money, and petrol giving us what we love. So put an order in for some merch people!
Sounds about right to me. maybe another 10% to get back to engine numbers. It actually makes bang on the same peak torque as my good engine, just doesn't hold it as long. Thanks!
It's amazing to see 185WHP outta 1.6 NATURALLY ASPIRATED. Even more amazing is seeing that powerband, especially with vvt-i. I'm guessing thats more than 200HP at the crank. I would be really interesting to see what could be done with freevalve style valve control.
Yeah it isn't uncommon with over 200hp, N/A, at the wheels, for race cars, it's not that it's hard to do with street cars but very very expensive and doesn't last long because it's tuned to the max come hell or high water. But with this custom VVT-i it's actually possible and that's why I'm so giddy about it! They almost got into freevalve control before someone decided no more ICE (Internal Combustion Engine). A small consortium of Japanese car makers is trying (I think Toyota is one of them), because they know they can get more out of ICE.
Really great demonstration on exactly why VVT is so valuable. I work predominately on LS V8 applications, and we have a line of VVT specific camshafts which are great options for customers that have combinations equipped with VVT phasers. We sell on exactly the same concept you're showing here, when you can modulate the cam timing, you can broaden the power curve - have your cake and eat it too. Really enjoy your videos!
This is very good. His videos also showed the exhaust side VVT isn't as significant as the intake side VVT. So the entire camshaft being under VVT control in a single cam in block isn't such a penalty as the uninformed might think.
@@casemodder89 the exhaust cam doesn't matter as much on an NA motor, yes, but non adjustable exhaust is still a compromise as compared to a full variable exhaust. Plus, who wouldn't want to say they have a dual VVT-i 4A-GE? I see your point though, even on turbo motors, exhaust VVT-i doesn't do as much as the intake cam does.
@@inaNis_ Toyota developed the original Dual VVT-i for better emissions and catalytic converter heating, which I assume isn't the concern of this build lol. It kinda did increase the power output of engines because they didn't need to detune the engine as aggressively to meet the emissions standards compared to a single VVT-i engine. For race engines (such as the 2UR-GSE on RC-F GT3) they removed the exhaust VVT to reduce weight since they are not concerned with emissions.
Very cool to see as the cam timing got locked in 20, 30, 40, etc low end power went up and top end went down. Que the vvt, it could use all that to get great low end and great top end. Thank you for breaking it down like that.
Your videos are AWESOME!! You do the tests and you see what happens instead of other videos that just wank about this and that. The data will set you free!!
Love your videos bro. When can we see more of the 20v. I currently have a blacktop. Would love to see what else I can try to increase power. Already running oversized pistons with a high comp ratio. 11.6:1. Running nice power. Any ideas for more power?
This is a truly incredible video of changes and results that most of us don't ever get to see. I found your videos to assist me with my own 'challenge'. I have a street car with a Nissan quadcam ie chain-driven cams with reground 272 (224 at 50thou) just under 10mm valve lift dropped in. The inlet cams advance 20degress when VTC switch operates, currently enabled below 5500rpm AND over half engine load. I plan on pulling the engine and timing the cams, and will measure their current centrelines/settings. The engine has lost a shitload of low-end torque since the factory cams, but gained up top. Noone I am aware of has this kind of real-world data, so would really appreciate you helping me calculate "best-guess" settings to "have it all son" or at least have some more torque back. Any adjustment means all front covers off the engine, also the adjustments will likely be a oncer on the exhaust gears (dowelled), the factory inlet can be adjusted (though not recommended yeah right). There are no adjustable cam gears available for this engine VH45DE. Very keen if you could help me out and obviously want to fix you up for it. Thanks again for you vids. Cheers.
I can't give you the straight answer you are after. as haven't dont anything on your engine. But your on the right track measuring things up an comparing to the factory cams. not all cam manufacturers get it right or are working to limitation in regards to the cam timing. It does sound to me that it needs more advance on the inlet at least. but be sure to find where you piston to valve contact is before committing to anything. assuming your cam pulley is an on/off deal not fully variable? which makes things a little tricky to get right if you only have one shot at it. Ideally you will want to get some data on what its like currently with vtc on/off through out the rev range. be it dyno runs or fuel used vs afr. Also It may not even be an issue with the cam timing. some engines will lose at stack of low end power with bigger cams. which is usually and exhaust/header issue
@@Garage4age Yeah noone said it would be easy. Hey cheers for the reply. The headers are unequal length but are not half bad, and relatively free-flowing exhaust using one of Vizards designs (using a suitable expansion chamber after the headers). The inlet manifolds on these engines are hideous to look at, but have long runners. Yes was going to see how much advance I can get away with before things get too close. For a smaller grind the idle seems quite lumpy to me, and have been unable to completely get running absolutely smooth below 2K. Running a bit rich and retarded a little with some 'over-run' fuel has helped heaps, but still very slight bucking even up at 1800rpm. Pretty good, but still slightly noticeable. For a jap 4.5 v8 it was exceptionally torquey before, surprisingly so, however 6k it felt like it rolled over. Now it's peak power is at around 6900rpm. Power comes on strong at around 3.5k or just above. I agree with you saying it may need some more advance on the inlet cams after how yours performed in your video. Also factory VTC point was 4600rpm, on dyno mine wanted 5600rpm, also supporting the idea that the engine was 'seeking' more advance rather than retard (I think?). Yes just 20deg adv or 0. At 2-3K it's slightly flat, though in a lighter car so driveable, but was great before in this range. WIll be pulling the motor this winter and will see where things are at, and will pick your brains then...no pressure haha. Engine's a VH45DE, headers, free-flow inlet, factory manifold (for now), headers, 2 x 2.5" with freeflow mufflers, car is a 2 seater 300zx. Hey thanks heaps again. Lincoln.
Great vid as usual, seeing how often you swap cams - how quickly can you do it? (not including the "shove it through oil fill hole" method :D) I guess it's much better in Starlet compared to AW11 where I spent half a day doing it for a first time.
Probably only 30mins on this engine if clearances are right. has no covers or backing plates to deal with. so just loosen cam belt, cam cover off and unbolt. the vvti setup makes it take quite a bit longer though.
Whoah... Nice stuff. I really envy you having a dyno, while I just do the b*tt-feel dyno whenever I do tuning changes on my 4A-GEs. Your videos though come as a good reference for a noob DIY tuner like me.
If your running alpha n (tps vs rpm) tune. You can get really far just by looking at the afr change. I based all my changes on that pre dyno. in most cases, when afr goes leaner means your making more power
I dont comment on RUclips vids, but i have to give credit to you and all the effort you've put in to produce really outstanding videos with great comparison across the board with many interesting bolt ons, hats off to you pal. I wish you had a B16a civic to do all these experiments on😅
This is so cool. Im reallt hoping youll sell a kit for the 4age 16v so i can repeat it one day. Id be willing to write off any warranty of the parts just to be able to get my hands on it..
Another awesome video! 1 thing I'd really like to see explained better, is the contradiction that is advancing the inlet cam improves low RPM performance. 'cause the way I'm seeing it, when you advance the inlet cam and leave the exhaust cam where it is, you've increased the overlap angle. And overlap is typically considered bad for low RPM performance. You've replied in other people's comments that moving the exhaust cam has much less effect, but when you've tested different exhaust cam timing, were you testing with the exhaust cam advanced the same amount as the inlet cam, or even more advanced than the inlet cam? And is the VVTi system something that you can/are willing to share more information about? Anyways, again, another wicked video. I'd suggest that you start a Patreon or similar thing to fund the 4A madness better. It's safe to say that you'd get a few supporters for the work that you share. I will.
the most important timing event is intake valve closing moment so at lower rpm it is better to close the intake early and not let air escape back in to intake as the piston starts to rise too much before valve closing and at high rpm the air speed and inertia in the intake runner force air in to the cylinder even when the piston is rising. overlap is what makes idle ruff and helps at cylinder filling and with wild cams with low overlap the idle is still good.
more inlet advance will give more bottom end and midrange. under around 2000rpm the engine will run rough, but soon as have a little air speed will gain power. if exhaust setup is bad, will get reversion with cam overlap so can loose power in some cases. this setup is pretty good in that respect. so doesn't have the big dip in bottom end like a lot of engines do with cam overlap. 4age's are pretty bad for it, if get it wrong. exhaust cam usually fairly numb to where the inlet is set. usually just set the inlet for best power compromise on fixed setup. then have a play with exhaust cam.
That is a brilliant result - probably resembles the curve of a strong 2 litre engine now! Are you considering the benefits this might have on your turbocharged engine…
4age basically the same setup on exhaust side. so yeah would swap over to the exhaust side with some small changes to design. But have seen what possible gains there are, by adjusting the cam gear on that side. only a very little bit in it. not worth the complexity and demand on oil pump.
Kinda annoying seeing it get removed. even on massive cams can be used to advantage. just need to put some effort into limiting the vvti mechanically, so pistons dont eat the valves
@@Garage4age how would you go about mechanically modifying vvti ? Open up and modify sprocket, restrict oil flow ? Setting you've done before curious about the testing process
@@joelucas6601 depends on the design of the pulley. a lot of them can open up and put a stopper in. some setups will get away with just skipping a tooth back on belt or chain. mine, since ive done some butchery to the pulley to mount a different cam gear on it. i can bolt the outer pulley on in different locations to adjust the max advance a small amount at a time. so yeh ive just set max advance on the pulley just before piston to valve contact. it has too much retard fully retarded as can see in video, but doesn't really matter, since nothing is going to get munched that going way
@@Garage4age I was wondering how you protected yourself against valve interference, I was wincing and getting nervous everytime you advanced the timing another 10 degrees. "Surely he won't do another run, he's not going to go more than 40 degrees is he?" etc
Garage is there anyway I can contact you? I want to try to do the same thing with my 7AGE 20V that I'm building and I wanted a little bit more insight into your implementation of the 2JZ VVTi gear.
That using the stock valve Big Port head? If so, I wonder how much more up top the Atlantic Valve upgrade and associated port work is worth in power. Anyone want to fund the man about $1000nz for the valves and inserts from MRP, plus over $2000nz for insert replacement and 3 angle cut by a professional shop? Then add extras like setting up the lash and the port work like removing material under the larger seats and exhaust port reshaping for increased flow (Garage 4AGE could do this?) Anyway, not much change out of $3000nz. Could well be more. HELP THIS MAN OUT, BUY HIS MERCH.
Still the modified stock valve bigport head yes. Head on other engine actually has that work done to it. smallport head with oversized seats and supertech valves, bigger cams etc. Can bee seen in my earlier vids, makes a bit over 150kw. I built the turd to test the vvt-i on, just took longer than expected and got out of hand along the way. once its proven reliable will swap the other engine back in. I want to build a proper long rod bottom end to go under that head. But things are bit grim budget wise. so that will have to wait
@@marlo0oty213 well basically you have to engineer a block and some hoses that will feed oil to the cam gear. It is not easy to do and requires precise machining and intricate machining
@@inaNis_ yea thats what i though about at first because the vvti isnt just powered by only some solonied. I guess its hard but if your rebuilding and an engine its gonna be worth every penny spent. Its like 4age-zz if you understand me😂😂
Hi. Unless I have missed it previously, do you have any experience with a big intake cam but a mild or stock ex cam? You have done it the other way around here, and what little I know about tuning mc engines, I kind of expected the result ( almost no diff) with that setup, so the big mistery remains. Props and keep it up!
How can you change cam timing so much? Is it a non-interference engine? What CR? Can you test intake VVT-i only vs VVT-i both please? Straight vs tapered (conical) trumpets. Both with fat openings. What about variable length trumpets? Like a valve to switch between long and short trumpets :) Great video as always
stock cams they are. not with bigger the cams. max advance is setup just before piston to valve contact. I have lots of videos on trumpets. variable setup will happen some time in the future
@@Garage4age i am also interested in making a variable length trumpet system. It seems that the challenge is finding a stepper motor that is powerful and fast enough (and not ridiculously priced). Trumpet sealing should be good enough.
@@Flank.Sinatra. From the testing ive done there isn't a whole lot to gain on a telescopic fully variable setup over length sized fixed runner, unless have lots of room. or your engine is operating at much higher rpm. for example my runners are tuned for the 8000-8500peak. they are longer than most setups can fit already. to get gains down the rpm the would need to extend out longer than current length. The setup I want to do will change the diameter at low rpm to increase air speed. but even then there isnt big gains to be had. one of the reasons it hasn't made it back to the top of my list since forever ago. (if youre bored go back to the very first video on my channel)
This extra 2,1mm of valve lift causes quite higher accelerations on the valves. Are You planing some weight loss on them? Great job, as always, You deserve much more subscribers. Im already waiting for the next video. Thank You!!
Pretty much end of the road for this engine. maybe test a couple more things and reliability test the vvti setup. then other engine will be going back in. it has beehive springs, ti retainers and shimless buckets, so valvetrain probably a bit lighter even though has oversized valves
be interesting to see if increasing fuel pressure does anything, start from 45psi as a baseline and add 10psi for each comparison test and go as far as you can. and maybe play around with injector timing for each test as i would think the fuel would have more velocity and wont take as long to reach the valve as you increase the fuel pressure.
You've literally made my dreams come true watching this Channel and the time and amount of runs you put into it it's awesome I've done 1620s I've never really been in the 20 valve just to the Rarity of them in the US but VVT and vvti have always interest me, with working2zz and 1zz. Questions do you modify the head, by making a internal external oil passage at the head, kind LsVtec ide a machined oil ring on the cam then a through passage in the oil ring and the a "through oil bolt" and you some how extend the cam to fit the 2jz? And the a oem vvt solenoid in a machined block of aluminum down by the alternator? You Sr are a smart man!!!
Im slightly dissapointed with big exhaust, small vvti intake combo... A really good test... 1 Vvti is great... 2 vvti must be double great 😁💪 Cheerd 🍻👍👍
Impressive. Thank you for the set points display. I have a question about the setup; appart from the vvti pulley, what are you using for the belt, bolts, other pulleys, etc.?
Your 4age is next level man. Ive currently got a 4age blacktop getting tuned, oversized valves, ported head, 280ish kelford cams, 12.5:1 comp, fully forged bottom end. still vvti capable. I'm hoping I see your type of gains, but other than modifying my intake box, intake pipe and plenum box like you did with the blacktop, I'm not sure what else to do for optimising the setup?
pretty much same stuff applies as all the 16v stuff ive done, if i havent covered it on 20v. all about the pipe tuning once have some bigger cams in there. dont be tempted to put short stacks in place of factory ones. even though the factory ones look terrible the length is about right. a touch longer is good. If doesnt make any power till 5500 onward, fix is usually on exhaust side
True, I dont think people realize how good the power curve on this thing is compared to your average tuned 4age. The blue line on this graph is a guys 4age i did the tune on awhile back. on paper mostly the same mods, minus long rod bottom end and vvti of course. Same cams. garage4ag.files.wordpress.com/2022/04/stock-ish-turd-vs-vvti-284-284-v-zac.jpg
@@cheesusslice7342 i cant answer your first question. the 2nd one you can see most of the build up and testing of this engine here ruclips.net/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/видео.html
I haven't done one on that. but this video will give you a pretty good idea when should be looking at going bigger. as can see where runner sizes limit power. ruclips.net/video/W_-4AXGTpYc/видео.html
Hum 🤔 was the tuned length intake measured with the old cams or the Kelford ones? If it was the old cams it might be worth having another play with the lengths as if the inlet valve opening and closing times have changed, your wave tuning might be different too...
Its not tuned for either of these setup's, as the bolt ons are off my 150kw engine with bigger cams. but intake pretty much where it needs to be for setup in this video. in saying that, with the vvti will be worth a revisit. the stock cam setup definitely could have done with a longer runner may have been a couple more kw in them, but wouldn't have hung on as long
Its kinda a non issue, as only does it at wide open throttle. never at wide open at those revs normally. But yeh can most likely just iron it out with the vvti anyway, I didn't pay much attention to tuning it below 3k
Is it tuned via TPS? Wonder if there's any noticeable difference in most cases when tuning open throttles with TPS vs what BMW used to do, which was put the trumpets in an airbox that has a maf or two running to it. Probably makes it run better at altitude but I've always wondered if it made any difference otherwise.
Yeah TPS with baro correction, so altitude not an issue. but afm will always be more stable to any changes, hence why manufacturers use it. TPS vs rpm is all good, can get them running nice. but any small changes that may happen over time can screw up the whole tune, since the aiflow/fueling is directly metered by throttles themselves.
This series is so under-rated. much like the channel. top stuff.
I am honestly shocked, that even with VVT you can get the same low end manners as a cam with 50 degrees less duration. That’s a whopping duration change. Well done.
Same here, I went from sub 200@0.050 to a 234/255, and made peak torque 500rpm earlier also lifted peak power from 6300 to 7400rpm. Went from a 12.3@112 to a 11.8@117.8 just from cams, n/a.
Valve events can do amazing things if you get them right, Duration is merely target rpm band, the magic is in the ICL and ECL
This isn't even remotely close to surprising, much less shocking, to anyone who knows cam design. The only event that really matters is IVC. Everything else has disproportionately less effect.
This test is just another solid proof of what actual cam designers have known for a very, very long time.
If I did the numbers right, the peak specific torque is 85 ftlb/L. That is an amazing result! Well done!
Times are tough. Mr. Garage 4AGE has spent heaps of time, money, and petrol giving us what we love. So put an order in for some merch people!
Sounds about right to me. maybe another 10% to get back to engine numbers. It actually makes bang on the same peak torque as my good engine, just doesn't hold it as long. Thanks!
A like for this just doesn't seem enough anymore. Love it!
It's amazing to see 185WHP outta 1.6 NATURALLY ASPIRATED. Even more amazing is seeing that powerband, especially with vvt-i. I'm guessing thats more than 200HP at the crank.
I would be really interesting to see what could be done with freevalve style valve control.
Yeah it isn't uncommon with over 200hp, N/A, at the wheels, for race cars, it's not that it's hard to do with street cars but very very expensive and doesn't last long because it's tuned to the max come hell or high water.
But with this custom VVT-i it's actually possible and that's why I'm so giddy about it!
They almost got into freevalve control before someone decided no more ICE (Internal Combustion Engine).
A small consortium of Japanese car makers is trying (I think Toyota is one of them), because they know they can get more out of ICE.
@@ToreDL87 Koenigsegg has freevalve on their Gemera, so yeah freevalve has been implemented.
@@sepg5084 Yeah it's like with many super/racecar technologies, have to wait a bit before we can all use it.
The most exciting thing to happen to the 4AG since 20v. Love your work.
Really great demonstration on exactly why VVT is so valuable. I work predominately on LS V8 applications, and we have a line of VVT specific camshafts which are great options for customers that have combinations equipped with VVT phasers. We sell on exactly the same concept you're showing here, when you can modulate the cam timing, you can broaden the power curve - have your cake and eat it too. Really enjoy your videos!
This is very good. His videos also showed the exhaust side VVT isn't as significant as the intake side VVT. So the entire camshaft being under VVT control in a single cam in block isn't such a penalty as the uninformed might think.
ALL HAIL VVTI. THE VVTI GODS HAVE SPOKEN. Now it’s time for dual VVTI, eh?
on NA engines exhaust vvti doesn't do much.
with a turbocharger: absofckingloutely YES.
@@casemodder89 big cams benefit from VVT-I quite a bit as well. Look at how much lift modern engines use, for example, the the 2GR-FE toyota V6
@@inaNis_ big cams ? in the first post that i replied to you wrote dual vvti !
so both camshafts variable - which is about pointless on NA engines.
@@casemodder89 the exhaust cam doesn't matter as much on an NA motor, yes, but non adjustable exhaust is still a compromise as compared to a full variable exhaust. Plus, who wouldn't want to say they have a dual VVT-i 4A-GE? I see your point though, even on turbo motors, exhaust VVT-i doesn't do as much as the intake cam does.
@@inaNis_ Toyota developed the original Dual VVT-i for better emissions and catalytic converter heating, which I assume isn't the concern of this build lol. It kinda did increase the power output of engines because they didn't need to detune the engine as aggressively to meet the emissions standards compared to a single VVT-i engine. For race engines (such as the 2UR-GSE on RC-F GT3) they removed the exhaust VVT to reduce weight since they are not concerned with emissions.
Always loved the look of your kp60. Reminds me of my old one except mine was a heap of shit and should never have got a wof.
It's all about who you know, not what you know is wrong with your car
Those are absolutely incredible gains.
Damn this is really good information ive never seen so much in detail dyno testing, great channel bro keep it up!
Always enjoy your evolving cam installs!
Big ups on the secret big cam mods!
Good stuff. What amazes me is that you can vary timing so much and nothing touches, either valve-valve or valve-piston.
Yeah i set the max pulley advance mechanically, just before piston to valve contact. hence why the first 15 degrees or so, is to retarded for any rpm
Bro this is nuts! I was debating ditching VVT on my blacktop for simplicity, but after seeing this, no way. Great video!
HUGE. Thanks for another great vid. What a win, big cams, all the benefit!
Very cool to see as the cam timing got locked in 20, 30, 40, etc low end power went up and top end went down. Que the vvt, it could use all that to get great low end and great top end. Thank you for breaking it down like that.
Блин ребят вы молодцы! Реально прикольно заниматься крутым хобби))
Добра и удачи вам!
Your videos are AWESOME!! You do the tests and you see what happens instead of other videos that just wank about this and that. The data will set you free!!
The sickest 4AGE on display on the net.
10000rpm, i love it
I want to see how much power would a 20v make
Love your videos bro. When can we see more of the 20v. I currently have a blacktop. Would love to see what else I can try to increase power. Already running oversized pistons with a high comp ratio. 11.6:1. Running nice power. Any ideas for more power?
You can use 7a block :)
Great practical video about VVT-i, thanks and keep filming!
Интересно, на шеснарь можно ГБЦ от 21179 с фазокрутилкой вкорячить или нет.
This is just awesome. Would love to see the details of the vvti pulley install and oil routing 😀 Thanks for great videos
Also interested in this
X3 and yes please and thank youuuu
Really good info for your viewers it’s making me change my mind on ecu choice for vvti control
Please drop the vvti build video! So many want to replicate including me!
Appreciate the effort your putting in
This is a truly incredible video of changes and results that most of us don't ever get to see. I found your videos to assist me with my own 'challenge'. I have a street car with a Nissan quadcam ie chain-driven cams with reground 272 (224 at 50thou) just under 10mm valve lift dropped in. The inlet cams advance 20degress when VTC switch operates, currently enabled below 5500rpm AND over half engine load. I plan on pulling the engine and timing the cams, and will measure their current centrelines/settings. The engine has lost a shitload of low-end torque since the factory cams, but gained up top. Noone I am aware of has this kind of real-world data, so would really appreciate you helping me calculate "best-guess" settings to "have it all son" or at least have some more torque back. Any adjustment means all front covers off the engine, also the adjustments will likely be a oncer on the exhaust gears (dowelled), the factory inlet can be adjusted (though not recommended yeah right). There are no adjustable cam gears available for this engine VH45DE. Very keen if you could help me out and obviously want to fix you up for it. Thanks again for you vids. Cheers.
I can't give you the straight answer you are after. as haven't dont anything on your engine. But your on the right track measuring things up an comparing to the factory cams. not all cam manufacturers get it right or are working to limitation in regards to the cam timing. It does sound to me that it needs more advance on the inlet at least. but be sure to find where you piston to valve contact is before committing to anything. assuming your cam pulley is an on/off deal not fully variable? which makes things a little tricky to get right if you only have one shot at it. Ideally you will want to get some data on what its like currently with vtc on/off through out the rev range. be it dyno runs or fuel used vs afr.
Also It may not even be an issue with the cam timing. some engines will lose at stack of low end power with bigger cams. which is usually and exhaust/header issue
@@Garage4age Yeah noone said it would be easy. Hey cheers for the reply. The headers are unequal length but are not half bad, and relatively free-flowing exhaust using one of Vizards designs (using a suitable expansion chamber after the headers). The inlet manifolds on these engines are hideous to look at, but have long runners. Yes was going to see how much advance I can get away with before things get too close. For a smaller grind the idle seems quite lumpy to me, and have been unable to completely get running absolutely smooth below 2K. Running a bit rich and retarded a little with some 'over-run' fuel has helped heaps, but still very slight bucking even up at 1800rpm. Pretty good, but still slightly noticeable. For a jap 4.5 v8 it was exceptionally torquey before, surprisingly so, however 6k it felt like it rolled over. Now it's peak power is at around 6900rpm. Power comes on strong at around 3.5k or just above. I agree with you saying it may need some more advance on the inlet cams after how yours performed in your video. Also factory VTC point was 4600rpm, on dyno mine wanted 5600rpm, also supporting the idea that the engine was 'seeking' more advance rather than retard (I think?). Yes just 20deg adv or 0. At 2-3K it's slightly flat, though in a lighter car so driveable, but was great before in this range. WIll be pulling the motor this winter and will see where things are at, and will pick your brains then...no pressure haha. Engine's a VH45DE, headers, free-flow inlet, factory manifold (for now), headers, 2 x 2.5" with freeflow mufflers, car is a 2 seater 300zx. Hey thanks heaps again. Lincoln.
Great vid as usual, seeing how often you swap cams - how quickly can you do it? (not including the "shove it through oil fill hole" method :D) I guess it's much better in Starlet compared to AW11 where I spent half a day doing it for a first time.
Probably only 30mins on this engine if clearances are right. has no covers or backing plates to deal with. so just loosen cam belt, cam cover off and unbolt. the vvti setup makes it take quite a bit longer though.
Easy you stick the cams through the oil inlet like shown in the video
Great video! Wow what a difference in cam size and timing! I love your channel!
Whoah... Nice stuff. I really envy you having a dyno, while I just do the b*tt-feel dyno whenever I do tuning changes on my 4A-GEs. Your videos though come as a good reference for a noob DIY tuner like me.
If your running alpha n (tps vs rpm) tune. You can get really far just by looking at the afr change. I based all my changes on that pre dyno. in most cases, when afr goes leaner means your making more power
Vvti for the win
Watched every video from down here in Oamaru NZ
Wish you were in South Island cos you could tune my truck
Danggg this thing screamsss , the mid range top end gains are huge . Myth busted you can indeed polish a tur
d
Another awesome video. So cool seeing it all come together in vvti
Time to revisit a lot of the intake and exhaust test. I have a feeling the results will be more noticeable.
He’s back!
I dont comment on RUclips vids, but i have to give credit to you and all the effort you've put in to produce really outstanding videos with great comparison across the board with many interesting bolt ons, hats off to you pal.
I wish you had a B16a civic to do all these experiments on😅
Legendary as per usual mate
@0:44 bye bye 10mm off the valve cover
Ha! I wondered what that noise was when doing the edit. its one of the screws for the cop plate
This is so cool. Im reallt hoping youll sell a kit for the 4age 16v so i can repeat it one day. Id be willing to write off any warranty of the parts just to be able to get my hands on it..
Best comparison video yet, love it👌
It's too cool, you have transcended our plane of existence!
Killer video bro, damn that turd is pretty polished now
I fn love the long cam
Another awesome video!
1 thing I'd really like to see explained better, is the contradiction that is advancing the inlet cam improves low RPM performance. 'cause the way I'm seeing it, when you advance the inlet cam and leave the exhaust cam where it is, you've increased the overlap angle. And overlap is typically considered bad for low RPM performance.
You've replied in other people's comments that moving the exhaust cam has much less effect, but when you've tested different exhaust cam timing, were you testing with the exhaust cam advanced the same amount as the inlet cam, or even more advanced than the inlet cam?
And is the VVTi system something that you can/are willing to share more information about?
Anyways, again, another wicked video.
I'd suggest that you start a Patreon or similar thing to fund the 4A madness better. It's safe to say that you'd get a few supporters for the work that you share. I will.
the most important timing event is intake valve closing moment so at lower rpm it is better to close the intake early and not let air escape back in to intake as the piston starts to rise too much before valve closing and at high rpm the air speed and inertia in the intake runner force air in to the cylinder even when the piston is rising. overlap is what makes idle ruff and helps at cylinder filling and with wild cams with low overlap the idle is still good.
more inlet advance will give more bottom end and midrange. under around 2000rpm the engine will run rough, but soon as have a little air speed will gain power. if exhaust setup is bad, will get reversion with cam overlap so can loose power in some cases. this setup is pretty good in that respect. so doesn't have the big dip in bottom end like a lot of engines do with cam overlap. 4age's are pretty bad for it, if get it wrong. exhaust cam usually fairly numb to where the inlet is set. usually just set the inlet for best power compromise on fixed setup. then have a play with exhaust cam.
That is a brilliant result - probably resembles the curve of a strong 2 litre engine now!
Are you considering the benefits this might have on your turbocharged engine…
Yeah vvti everything once im happy with the setup and reliability
Did you do any sort of p2v or v2v checking with the vvt system?
Loving the content, channel is massively underrated 🤙
Hi, Its setup so pulley gets to end of its travel before any contact.
That big cam is a WINNER 😁
o wonder if vvti on the exhaust as well would be possible to fabricate for even more bottom end performance
4age basically the same setup on exhaust side. so yeah would swap over to the exhaust side with some small changes to design. But have seen what possible gains there are, by adjusting the cam gear on that side. only a very little bit in it. not worth the complexity and demand on oil pump.
great demo of vvti!!! great vid mate!
Surprisingly, coyote V8 tuners mostly remove their VVT for valve clearance. I guess they sacrifice midrange power for peak power.
Surprisingly, most tuners make bad decisions based on hearsay and blind arrogance. They are always right.
Best to have an open mind.
Kinda annoying seeing it get removed. even on massive cams can be used to advantage. just need to put some effort into limiting the vvti mechanically, so pistons dont eat the valves
@@Garage4age how would you go about mechanically modifying vvti ? Open up and modify sprocket, restrict oil flow ? Setting you've done before curious about the testing process
@@joelucas6601 depends on the design of the pulley. a lot of them can open up and put a stopper in. some setups will get away with just skipping a tooth back on belt or chain. mine, since ive done some butchery to the pulley to mount a different cam gear on it. i can bolt the outer pulley on in different locations to adjust the max advance a small amount at a time. so yeh ive just set max advance on the pulley just before piston to valve contact. it has too much retard fully retarded as can see in video, but doesn't really matter, since nothing is going to get munched that going way
@@Garage4age I was wondering how you protected yourself against valve interference, I was wincing and getting nervous everytime you advanced the timing another 10 degrees.
"Surely he won't do another run, he's not going to go more than 40 degrees is he?" etc
Garage is there anyway I can contact you? I want to try to do the same thing with my 7AGE 20V that I'm building and I wanted a little bit more insight into your implementation of the 2JZ VVTi gear.
Thanks for all of that stuff mate! 👏👏
Best channel on youtube now
According to whistlin diesel you can just crack a 6 cyl cam against a curb to shorten it down if you want to save some time on your next cam swap haha
very nice man! Love it. Makes me want to fit VVTi to my 20V...
the 20v vvt isn't too bad, gets you most of the way there!
@@Garage4age true but most of the way isn't all the way, and as you say "i want it all son!"
@@matthewbussy Ha, fair enough i did the same
That using the stock valve Big Port head?
If so, I wonder how much more up top the Atlantic Valve upgrade and associated port work is worth in power.
Anyone want to fund the man about $1000nz for the valves and inserts from MRP, plus over $2000nz for insert replacement and 3 angle cut by a professional shop? Then add extras like setting up the lash and the port work like removing material under the larger seats and exhaust port reshaping for increased flow (Garage 4AGE could do this?)
Anyway, not much change out of $3000nz. Could well be more.
HELP THIS MAN OUT, BUY HIS MERCH.
Still the modified stock valve bigport head yes. Head on other engine actually has that work done to it. smallport head with oversized seats and supertech valves, bigger cams etc. Can bee seen in my earlier vids, makes a bit over 150kw. I built the turd to test the vvt-i on, just took longer than expected and got out of hand along the way. once its proven reliable will swap the other engine back in. I want to build a proper long rod bottom end to go under that head. But things are bit grim budget wise. so that will have to wait
Ooww...
Big Port Formula Atlantic Vrs Small Port Formula Atlantic...
Hehe, good stuff. Understand the budget side of things!
This is a gold video. Thank you!
I wasn't aware there was a VVT system for the 4A. Modern technology is pretty amazing.
The 20v had VVT, but no VVT-I, he made it
It’s a JZ VVTi cam gear he’s retrofitted onto this 4A-GE. Previously, he retrofitted a VVT cam gear from a 20v on this motor
@@inaNis_ how is that done is it easy to do so on 20v st?
@@marlo0oty213 well basically you have to engineer a block and some hoses that will feed oil to the cam gear. It is not easy to do and requires precise machining and intricate machining
@@inaNis_ yea thats what i though about at first because the vvti isnt just powered by only some solonied. I guess its hard but if your rebuilding and an engine its gonna be worth every penny spent. Its like 4age-zz if you understand me😂😂
great job 👍 bmw n54 and n55 engine can do 50 and 75 degree in ecu .we love tune it .
thank you so much for the information
Hi. Unless I have missed it previously, do you have any experience with a big intake cam but a mild or stock ex cam? You have done it the other way around here, and what little I know about tuning mc engines, I kind of expected the result ( almost no diff) with that setup, so the big mistery remains.
Props and keep it up!
have done it before but not on this engine or videos about it. was decent gains just doing the intake. still not as much as both
How can you change cam timing so much? Is it a non-interference engine? What CR?
Can you test intake VVT-i only vs VVT-i both please?
Straight vs tapered (conical) trumpets. Both with fat openings.
What about variable length trumpets? Like a valve to switch between long and short trumpets :)
Great video as always
stock cams they are. not with bigger the cams. max advance is setup just before piston to valve contact. I have lots of videos on trumpets. variable setup will happen some time in the future
@@Garage4age i am also interested in making a variable length trumpet system. It seems that the challenge is finding a stepper motor that is powerful and fast enough (and not ridiculously priced). Trumpet sealing should be good enough.
@@Flank.Sinatra. From the testing ive done there isn't a whole lot to gain on a telescopic fully variable setup over length sized fixed runner, unless have lots of room. or your engine is operating at much higher rpm. for example my runners are tuned for the 8000-8500peak. they are longer than most setups can fit already. to get gains down the rpm the would need to extend out longer than current length. The setup I want to do will change the diameter at low rpm to increase air speed. but even then there isnt big gains to be had. one of the reasons it hasn't made it back to the top of my list since forever ago. (if youre bored go back to the very first video on my channel)
This extra 2,1mm of valve lift causes quite higher accelerations on the valves.
Are You planing some weight loss on them?
Great job, as always, You deserve much more subscribers.
Im already waiting for the next video.
Thank You!!
Pretty much end of the road for this engine. maybe test a couple more things and reliability test the vvti setup. then other engine will be going back in. it has beehive springs, ti retainers and shimless buckets, so valvetrain probably a bit lighter even though has oversized valves
be interesting to see if increasing fuel pressure does anything, start from 45psi as a baseline and add 10psi for each comparison test and go as far as you can. and maybe play around with injector timing for each test as i would think the fuel would have more velocity and wont take as long to reach the valve as you increase the fuel pressure.
Great episode this one.
You've literally made my dreams come true watching this Channel and the time and amount of runs you put into it it's awesome I've done 1620s I've never really been in the 20 valve just to the Rarity of them in the US but VVT and vvti have always interest me, with working2zz and 1zz. Questions do you modify the head, by making a internal external oil passage at the head, kind LsVtec ide a machined oil ring on the cam then a through passage in the oil ring and the a "through oil bolt" and you some how extend the cam to fit the 2jz? And the a oem vvt solenoid in a machined block of aluminum down by the alternator? You Sr are a smart man!!!
Midrange gain is good with the cam and VVT-i
Im slightly dissapointed with big exhaust, small vvti intake combo...
A really good test... 1 Vvti is great... 2 vvti must be double great 😁💪
Cheerd 🍻👍👍
Thank you
Impressive. Thank you for the set points display.
I have a question about the setup; appart from the vvti pulley, what are you using for the belt, bolts, other pulleys, etc.?
Awesome work!
Why dont you show any details on how you get the 20v VVT and 2zzge VVT-i cams to it in the Twincam 16v Head? We would love if you shared this info.
Awesome content, will you be sharing the Vvti build details?
Good job!!! Great work
Your 4age is next level man. Ive currently got a 4age blacktop getting tuned, oversized valves, ported head, 280ish kelford cams, 12.5:1 comp, fully forged bottom end. still vvti capable. I'm hoping I see your type of gains, but other than modifying my intake box, intake pipe and plenum box like you did with the blacktop, I'm not sure what else to do for optimising the setup?
pretty much same stuff applies as all the 16v stuff ive done, if i havent covered it on 20v. all about the pipe tuning once have some bigger cams in there. dont be tempted to put short stacks in place of factory ones. even though the factory ones look terrible the length is about right. a touch longer is good. If doesnt make any power till 5500 onward, fix is usually on exhaust side
Any chance we could get some narration talking about peak power power under the curve losses etc.?
True, I dont think people realize how good the power curve on this thing is compared to your average tuned 4age. The blue line on this graph is a guys 4age i did the tune on awhile back. on paper mostly the same mods, minus long rod bottom end and vvti of course. Same cams. garage4ag.files.wordpress.com/2022/04/stock-ish-turd-vs-vvti-284-284-v-zac.jpg
Now you need to try a 7ag ...what kinda torque increase will that do 🤔 and have you ever looked into the 2zz crank into the 7a block for a 2L
Cost wise thats about 3-5k...
Not a fan of the stoker stuff, but that's just me. rather all the revs. 7a will pull the power down the curve a bit
that is nuts, 50hp gain just in cams
...and intake and exhaust header...
I wonder if using stock inlet cam with aftermarket big exhaust cam (say a 272) on boosted applications would seriously effect performance..
How much does it cost to make an engine this powerful
And like what would be the exact things I needed to do so
@@cheesusslice7342 i cant answer your first question. the 2nd one you can see most of the build up and testing of this engine here ruclips.net/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/видео.html
Love your videos! What dyno do you use?
Отличный результат 🔥👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Has there been an episode comparing Silver and blocktop ITB's and how their sizing works with the 16V?
I haven't done one on that. but this video will give you a pretty good idea when should be looking at going bigger. as can see where runner sizes limit power. ruclips.net/video/W_-4AXGTpYc/видео.html
wow that is impressive.
Take my money already!! Where can i get one.. Great content as usual.
Our hero returns 🤙🤙
Hum 🤔 was the tuned length intake measured with the old cams or the Kelford ones? If it was the old cams it might be worth having another play with the lengths as if the inlet valve opening and closing times have changed, your wave tuning might be different too...
Its not tuned for either of these setup's, as the bolt ons are off my 150kw engine with bigger cams. but intake pretty much where it needs to be for setup in this video. in saying that, with the vvti will be worth a revisit. the stock cam setup definitely could have done with a longer runner may have been a couple more kw in them, but wouldn't have hung on as long
Instant like for trying to jam that huge camshaft through the oil filler! Lol!
So informative👍
I would like to see if valve lash makes a horsepower difference.
And in an answer as to why VVTi is so popular on modern engines...
Thx for your vid! More Degrees mean more lift at INC at TDC right? EXC fixed with approx 3mm lift?
IVO, but yeh more lift at tdc the bigger the vvti number. up to about 5mm at tdc. exhaust fixed somewhere between 2-3mm @ tdc
Hey Big Boss,
How about some hemholtz resonators on the ITB to clear up that low RPM wobble?
It is directly linked to the sound generation.
Brilliant idea!
Its kinda a non issue, as only does it at wide open throttle. never at wide open at those revs normally. But yeh can most likely just iron it out with the vvti anyway, I didn't pay much attention to tuning it below 3k
You have installed a higher lift cam and you are moving it through a 50 degree range. Do you not have trouble with valve to piston clearance.
max pulley advance is setup to stop before contact.
Is it tuned via TPS? Wonder if there's any noticeable difference in most cases when tuning open throttles with TPS vs what BMW used to do, which was put the trumpets in an airbox that has a maf or two running to it. Probably makes it run better at altitude but I've always wondered if it made any difference otherwise.
Yeah TPS with baro correction, so altitude not an issue. but afm will always be more stable to any changes, hence why manufacturers use it. TPS vs rpm is all good, can get them running nice. but any small changes that may happen over time can screw up the whole tune, since the aiflow/fueling is directly metered by throttles themselves.
God damnt now I want VVTI
Wish you could do this on a 4agze engine soon also...
It must feel like a unit after that
Great videos 👍