it was giving me so much anxiety bc it'd thread itself out on every decel and it loosened more than two whole threads as he shortened the intake runners
People like this are rare, I hardly ever find people like this who compare minor stuff like intake runners on the dyno! :D That earned this channel a new subscriber, I hope I wont be disappointed :3
i totally agree. just found this channel, already watched every dyno vid and it's helped me with my intake design. Got himself a new subscriber. Channels like these are rare.
Mate I totally understand the time and effort you put into doing this.... and yes, the results are staggering, it goes to show Piper did their homework... All the best to you in NZ from AUST. Stay safe. !!!!
I subscribed. I own a dyno my self and involved in tuning. The amount of time it takes to do each run really adds up especially when you keep it consistent with coolant and oil temps. Very interesting very well done and awesome video thank you!
Epic!! Thank you for all the time and effort that must’ve gone into this video, super cool to see the various effects. I was shocked to see how little the 45° metal bend impact the result. For a V2, please consider comparing different filtration options, eg. those metal mesh stack filters that sit over the opening of each stack vs/ meshes that are mounted between the stack and the body, vs/ those individual foamy thingies that sit over each throat, vs/ K&N DCOE-style filter boxes with the big shiny plate where you want the air to come from, vs/ none. There’s so much folklore about the various filter options (“oh, these will kill air velocity, try these other ones”) that it’d be really nice to get some real data.
I had to subscribe after this video, i appreciated this effort towards real development and data acquisition, this takes time to do and has no "bro science" and magical filters to it. Keep up.
Usually, on normal induction engines (particularly older ones), the best ram length will be equal roughly, to the length of the induction travel (i.e. the distance from the venturi to the cylinder). Massive radius bellmouths will always flow more than any other form of intake. There are some exceptions to this (like the A-series siamese port heads), but its a good general rule.
The only real remaining thing to test, is getting a linear actuator and trying to have variable runner-length on the same dyno-run, and figuring out what rpm which runner length is optimal, and if variable angle would be beneficial too. As the Yamaha R1's come with "stacked" trumpets that vary the runner-length to some degree, it has some impact obviously, but what remains to see is at what rpm the intake-pulses swap to purely wanting air-speed and if it changes back at any point if load is increased
Very concise and too the point, not a whole lotta jibber jabber at the beginning just for "filler" love it. Will check out more of your vids! Great stuff
Professor Blair wrote two books on four stroke and two stroke engine calculations. His software is what all factory’s engine simulations are based on. I have used his software for years. Very good
Just found this, after researching for motorcycle velocity stacks. Awesome work mate. Very rare to find someone doing this and letting the public see it. new Scbr...
Great video, thanks for taking the time to make it, really good to see this kind of detail on tuned lengths and bellmouths with such a scientific method used to compare everything!
That buttefly valve at the end of the video, sand the portion that do not touch the tb wall. Make it rounder at the edge that point to the intake and sharper on the edge that point to the engine port.
Try rounding the front and back edge of your full plastic bellmouth for a continuous radius from inside to outside the bellmouth and from the outside of the bellmouth to the outside of the runner.
You answered a lot of questions that I didn't even know I had. I will remember all this experimentation and research the day I build velocity stacks. Thanks a lot!
i really appreciate this video. my favorite part was right at the end where you could see the intake pulses. if really helped to visualize why the dyno graph not only had the dips (due to resonance) but also the chaos right at the top of the rev range. also, it was neat to hear the air go supersonic
@@amithg1978 It doesn't The expansion waves and reflected compression waves are what travel at the localised speed of sound, the air mass moves at much lower speed.
Remember also, that the travel of combustible mixture through the intake will change from ramming. David Vizard did a massive test of the flow pattern, and found out that even on increased flow from the inlet, the travel path of the mixture changed, sometimes causing backflow in recessed areas of the intake (like after a sharp turn). The atomisation of the fuel in the mixture also changed somewhat from the changes. More power wins, but its interesting to note these things.
Remember to mention that intake ramming is completely dependant on the particulars of the engine in question. Even minor changes to other factors can improve/decrease the effect of intake ramming.
I'm only leaving a comment cuz you deserve a comment, this is a short and sweet video, but the editing, the work you put, I salute you and you make the internet a place to dodge school work ahhahahh. Thanks for the entertainment!
That's well interesting. Diameter didn't have an effect as much as the way the air enters and the length of the entry and what a difference of 90deg entry vs 45deg...loving these tests.
Excellent work! I applaud your effort in many aspects of your pursuit of information (crafting of the multitude of ideas, time involved recording/ editing, parts purchase/ creating/ swapping, etc). AND that engine deserves some recognition in the line of duty! I've seen that that thing fo a bunch of these dyno pulls and it just keeps on thriving, awesome
This video is very underrated. A lot of research done in a nice compact video, that’s straight to the point. This video and information is worth gold. Thank you for your time and efforts! Liked and subscribed!
Bellmouth shape changes the reflection point of the open tube and different Bellmouth forms will mimic different length pipes. I think you will find a stronger effect and more torque area under the curve with smaller diameter tubes.
In 1965 my SCCA sponsors modified a 356C 2600 SC so much that it had to run in E Modified class. It’s Solex 40 I-II carbs were topped with just duplexes airhorns - the trumpets. The car finished third in the Marlboro 6-Hour race. Conventional wisdom then was for short intakes, long intake runners and a short exhaust if you wanted high end power. You reversed that for more power in the lower RPMs at the expense of absolute power.
I posted this in a group it was shared to It's a very interesting comparison. Everyone loves to argue on the internet without hard data, and everyone has a "best" set up, but it's not always ideal or practical to follow them. I would love to see the stock intake setup for a true baseline. Then maybe an enclosed airbox too with a single entry. We’re all aware 10kw is a big gain in these engines, but I’m not sure my (inexperienced) butt-dyno could tell the difference between a lot of the configurations and would go with what’s most easily accessible, fits in the engine bay (peksy brake boosters!) and fits the budget. Thanks for doing a video like this
It really shows what some people are leaving on the table. but as you say, packaging is a big problem with most setups. Everyone likes a good internet argument haha
Huge amount of work, nicely done , very scientific. Not many people take the effort to do a study properly, I am in medicine and your study here is what I would consider well done. Love the old cans thrown in there for fun.
Interesting that the conclusion was pretty much what is considered accepted knowledge; but fascinating to see the elimination of potential alternatives.
Another informative and entertaining video with lots of solid figures. I hate to be "that guy" but a racing inlet tract is usually designed with a 1.5 to 3 degree taper.
Very, very big job is done!!! One of the best video, which I see! It's important information for beginners, in building they're engine's. Thank you very much, its awesome)) Sorry about my English, hello from Russia - Siberia.
The correct diameter ram pipes for this engine will be around 41 mm and about 150 to 200 mm long. when you go larger in diameter as the 51 mm are the velocity of the air is so low there is no change in power as you change to a larger ram pipe. I know everyone thinks that diameter has nothing to do with it but I have dyno sheets to prove my point. We put a Toyota 1.8l on the dyno and tested a couple of different diameter ram pipes and got a 60 percent lift in power at 5,000 rpm for a decline of a couple of KW at the top end, If you want I can send you the dyno sheet and you can check out if what I say is correct or not.
Great video, thanks. Always want to know how trumpets length and bending change torque curve. Also it would be very interesting to test different ITB kits with different throttle body diameter.
now that you have the correct length you could try going for smaller intervals like 5mm and see if it can be fine tuned even more bu it is just amazing to see how runner length theory translates to real life
👍 for time and effort. Would love to see small taper cone; smaller opening w/bellmouth to larger opening at TB and vice versa. Volume vs velocity. Cheers.
Whoa! Is this THE Billzilla!? If so you are a legend in my book. I've been a huge 4age/4agze fanatic for 20+yrs and learnt quite a lot from the info you've put out on your website. Thanks for your contribution to the 4A series of engines.
Nicely done tests!! Thanks for your efforts...very instructive. I know you don't really have room for it, but building a Helmholtz tuned intake box could help the bottom end and flatten out the torque dip you're seeing in the midrange. We've done some testing on SV1000 Suzuki's and with stacks and pods they lose midrange and gain a little on the top end, but with the stock airbox it boosts bottom to midrange with little top end loss. You'd have to go above hood level to experiment with this concept, but thank you for posting up all of your tuning videos.
This test is amazing, search about Design of experiments, you can use a lot of variants in the same test and after you take the results, IS very intersting
Very scientific test! You can get even better results if you add flares to 165mm tube (best result) as flare length does not count in overall length (at least for subwoofer box design anyway).
Hey, yes this is basically what my normal intake is. Being the one at end of vid with the air filter. Total length is 185mm, but has slight taper and decent sized bellmouth, so it acts closer to the straight 165mm pipe rather than the 185mm straight
Now build one with variable runner length, using a metal gear high torque (RC plane type) as the actuator. And an Arduino controller (reading RPM and Throttle position).
my normal intake , the one at end with the filter is tapered. so that vs the pvc with the white bellmouths is an ok comparison. the tapered runner acts like a slightly shorter pipe by the looks. So kinda hard to do a direct comparison. would have to do some minor length adjustments. will keep it in mind for next time
very interesting video. Would love to see the difference in the lengths series as in the beginning of this video but with a bellmouth as I think without it you get turbulent flow making it less possible to see the effect. Also would be interested to see the effect of filter socks, from my experience they are very restrictive to flow compared to a common large filter.
Have you tried double stacks yet? Would be a great test to do. To give you an example MWR stacks for GSX 1000. Two velocity stacks on top of each other. 3 tests one short, one long, and one double. Thank you for such a great test data!
Hey, Not yet. Definitely on the list to try though. maybe next time round. Had a guy interested in 3d printing some, but hes a busy man so didn't make it into this test
HA - as below - it was entertaining watching the black breather nut 'magically' rotate back and forth. A decent effort went into this and well worth watching. Thanks. Have a nice day all. CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.
I loved watching that AN fitting slowly tightening and loosening itself.
Years of development went into the self tightening AN fitting. As of course with most things, it still has its issues
I figured I wasnt the only one
it was giving me so much anxiety bc it'd thread itself out on every decel and it loosened more than two whole threads as he shortened the intake runners
People like this are rare, I hardly ever find people like this who compare minor stuff like intake runners on the dyno! :D That earned this channel a new subscriber, I hope I wont be disappointed :3
Richard Holdener did a video on runner lengths. Longer runners more low end torque.
... and yet they can have a significant affect on the torque curve - especially if the cam' timing is adjusted to suit.
i totally agree. just found this channel, already watched every dyno vid and it's helped me with my intake design. Got himself a new subscriber. Channels like these are rare.
My girlfriend really enjoyed listening to the dulcet tones produced by this video as I watched it
Mate I totally understand the time and effort you put into doing this.... and yes, the results are staggering, it goes to show Piper did their homework... All the best to you in NZ from AUST. Stay safe. !!!!
yeah, end results. Just buy the pipercross setup.
Well done, lots of effort, really enjoyed watching.
Finally scientific Dyno results of different intake options.
I subscribed. I own a dyno my self and involved in tuning. The amount of time it takes to do each run really adds up especially when you keep it consistent with coolant and oil temps. Very interesting very well done and awesome video thank you!
You had me as a viewer when I saw velocity stacks. You have me as a subscriber after that thorough test.
Epic!! Thank you for all the time and effort that must’ve gone into this video, super cool to see the various effects. I was shocked to see how little the 45° metal bend impact the result.
For a V2, please consider comparing different filtration options, eg. those metal mesh stack filters that sit over the opening of each stack vs/ meshes that are mounted between the stack and the body, vs/ those individual foamy thingies that sit over each throat, vs/ K&N DCOE-style filter boxes with the big shiny plate where you want the air to come from, vs/ none.
There’s so much folklore about the various filter options (“oh, these will kill air velocity, try these other ones”) that it’d be really nice to get some real data.
I had to subscribe after this video, i appreciated this effort towards real development and data acquisition, this takes time to do and has no "bro science" and magical filters to it. Keep up.
Rifle the tubing to see if swirling air helps or golf ball dimples on larger radius of 45° elbow with a soldering iron
GREAT VIDEO. Thanks for taking the time to run all these tests. Good information on this topic is hard to find.
Usually, on normal induction engines (particularly older ones), the best ram length will be equal roughly, to the length of the induction travel (i.e. the distance from the venturi to the cylinder). Massive radius bellmouths will always flow more than any other form of intake. There are some exceptions to this (like the A-series siamese port heads), but its a good general rule.
also I do like seeing it reinforced that an air filter will not hurt power AT ALL if it is big enough/high flowing enough. great video!
The only real remaining thing to test, is getting a linear actuator and trying to have variable runner-length on the same dyno-run, and figuring out what rpm which runner length is optimal, and if variable angle would be beneficial too. As the Yamaha R1's come with "stacked" trumpets that vary the runner-length to some degree, it has some impact obviously, but what remains to see is at what rpm the intake-pulses swap to purely wanting air-speed and if it changes back at any point if load is increased
Very concise and too the point, not a whole lotta jibber jabber at the beginning just for "filler" love it. Will check out more of your vids! Great stuff
VERY EDUCATED, WHEN YOU KEEP WORKING ON MINOR DETAILS YOU END UP WITH SUCCESSFUL PROGRESS, THANK YOU.
Professor Blair wrote two books on four stroke and two stroke engine calculations. His software is what all factory’s engine simulations are based on. I have used his software for years. Very good
Just found this, after researching for motorcycle velocity stacks. Awesome work mate. Very rare to find someone doing this and letting the public see it. new Scbr...
Great video, thanks for taking the time to make it, really good to see this kind of detail on tuned lengths and bellmouths with such a scientific method used to compare everything!
That buttefly valve at the end of the video, sand the portion that do not touch the tb wall. Make it rounder at the edge that point to the intake and sharper on the edge that point to the engine port.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video!
Try rounding the front and back edge of your full plastic bellmouth for a continuous radius from inside to outside the bellmouth and from the outside of the bellmouth to the outside of the runner.
Best dyno channel on RUclips, hands down.
You answered a lot of questions that I didn't even know I had.
I will remember all this experimentation and research the day I build velocity stacks. Thanks a lot!
Soooo good. That is what i call Research and Development! off to buy some peaches
i really appreciate this video. my favorite part was right at the end where you could see the intake pulses. if really helped to visualize why the dyno graph not only had the dips (due to resonance) but also the chaos right at the top of the rev range. also, it was neat to hear the air go supersonic
I couldn't spot it. And also when did the air go supersonic? It would be nice if you could tell me, I am quite curious!
@@amithg1978
It doesn't
The expansion waves and reflected compression waves are what travel at the localised speed of sound, the air mass moves at much lower speed.
Remember also, that the travel of combustible mixture through the intake will change from ramming. David Vizard did a massive test of the flow pattern, and found out that even on increased flow from the inlet, the travel path of the mixture changed, sometimes causing backflow in recessed areas of the intake (like after a sharp turn). The atomisation of the fuel in the mixture also changed somewhat from the changes. More power wins, but its interesting to note these things.
subed right away, thanks for the effort in putting this together! keep up the good work mate!
No me esperaba encontrarte aquí, pero tampoco me extraña 🤣🤣
Remember to mention that intake ramming is completely dependant on the particulars of the engine in question. Even minor changes to other factors can improve/decrease the effect of intake ramming.
I'm only leaving a comment cuz you deserve a comment, this is a short and sweet video, but the editing, the work you put, I salute you and you make the internet a place to dodge school work ahhahahh. Thanks for the entertainment!
That's well interesting. Diameter didn't have an effect as much as the way the air enters and the length of the entry and what a difference of 90deg entry vs 45deg...loving these tests.
Excellent work! I applaud your effort in many aspects of your pursuit of information (crafting of the multitude of ideas, time involved recording/ editing, parts purchase/ creating/ swapping, etc).
AND that engine deserves some recognition in the line of duty! I've seen that that thing fo a bunch of these dyno pulls and it just keeps on thriving, awesome
Super Valueble and Scientific video about NA intake hardaware tuning！Thank you for making this video！
A much needed test for anyone who wants to buy CAI's with a trumpet end.
best research and development i have seen so far.
This video is very underrated. A lot of research done in a nice compact video, that’s straight to the point. This video and information is worth gold. Thank you for your time and efforts! Liked and subscribed!
Bellmouth shape changes the reflection point of the open tube and different Bellmouth forms will mimic different length pipes. I think you will find a stronger effect and more torque area under the curve with smaller diameter tubes.
awesome to see the angled results!
One of the best I ever saw. Thank you very much.
In 1965 my SCCA sponsors modified a 356C 2600 SC so much that it had to run in E Modified class. It’s Solex 40 I-II carbs were topped with just duplexes airhorns - the trumpets. The car finished third in the Marlboro 6-Hour race. Conventional wisdom then was for short intakes, long intake runners and a short exhaust if you wanted high end power. You reversed that for more power in the lower RPMs at the expense of absolute power.
Well done, great work. Thanks for the video.
Awesome video. Great comparison on each item and not too long to watch. Really helpful. Cheers
I posted this in a group it was shared to
It's a very interesting comparison. Everyone loves to argue on the internet without hard data, and everyone has a "best" set up, but it's not always ideal or practical to follow them. I would love to see the stock intake setup for a true baseline. Then maybe an enclosed airbox too with a single entry.
We’re all aware 10kw is a big gain in these engines, but I’m not sure my (inexperienced) butt-dyno could tell the difference between a lot of the configurations and would go with what’s most easily accessible, fits in the engine bay (peksy brake boosters!) and fits the budget.
Thanks for doing a video like this
It really shows what some people are leaving on the table. but as you say, packaging is a big problem with most setups. Everyone likes a good internet argument haha
Love your works boys. Exactly what I would try if I had my own dyno in the shed
Huge amount of work, nicely done , very scientific.
Not many people take the effort to do a study properly, I am in medicine and your study here is what I would consider well done. Love the old cans thrown in there for fun.
Interesting that the conclusion was pretty much what is considered accepted knowledge; but fascinating to see the elimination of potential alternatives.
Amazing video, thanks for taking the time and effort to put this together!
Amazing work put in. very informative
Epic commitment dude. Good results.
Have you tried variable length runners that telescope as you rev? That would be an interesting test
power would be the same.
Really good data. Wasn’t really surprised by the peach cans-After seeing a salad bowl with air filter top beat 95% of the performance air filters...
I. LOVE. THIS. SO. FRICKIN'. MUCH.
all the people watching this are at the point of honing there knowledge and skills on engines! Awesome!
VERY VERY VERY INTERESTING. Thanks for the video, most clarifying
Another informative and entertaining video with lots of solid figures. I hate to be "that guy" but a racing inlet tract is usually designed with a 1.5 to 3 degree taper.
Amazing video! Thank you! Happy new year!
Came here just to hear glorious Throttle body trumpet noises.
Interesting findings though :)
I glad i'm not the only dork around. great vid.
this channel is legendary
Great vid. Straight to the point.
All killa no filla.
Thanks for the time and effort you've put in. Subd. From Oz. 👍
great video friend, you are a genius
Very, very big job is done!!! One of the best video, which I see! It's important information for beginners, in building they're engine's.
Thank you very much, its awesome))
Sorry about my English, hello from Russia - Siberia.
Thank you for making this video. Interesting outcome.
The correct diameter ram pipes for this engine will be around 41 mm and about 150 to 200 mm long. when you go larger in diameter as the 51 mm are the velocity of the air is so low there is no change in power as you change to a larger ram pipe. I know everyone thinks that diameter has nothing to do with it but I have dyno sheets to prove my point. We put a Toyota 1.8l on the dyno and tested a couple of different diameter ram pipes and got a 60 percent lift in power at 5,000 rpm for a decline of a couple of KW at the top end, If you want I can send you the dyno sheet and you can check out if what I say is correct or not.
Keen to see dyno sheet and specs on test engine - garage4age@gmail.com I can try some smaller diameter tubes if round 2 happens
Did you know Pam's cans have a slightly higher flow due to the internal structure being a better design.
Dang, might have to do some revisions
Great video, thanks. Always want to know how trumpets length and bending change torque curve. Also it would be very interesting to test different ITB kits with different throttle body diameter.
Rad upload!
I’d like too see a differentiating inlet runner length across the four ports.
Hats off to you guys for a great job ..alot of work
now that you have the correct length you could try going for smaller intervals like 5mm and see if it can be fine tuned even more bu it is just amazing to see how runner length theory translates to real life
Everyone showing up vtecs in the car show until i showed up in a 4age with cans of beans
Gotta be a record the number of dyno pulls fitting in an 11min video haha. Excellent stuff as always
👍 for time and effort. Would love to see small taper cone; smaller opening w/bellmouth to larger opening at TB and vice versa. Volume vs velocity. Cheers.
Will be doing a round 2 at some stage. thanks for the idea
Thank you for all your efforts! Great data!
Thank you, for investing time!
Good video, thanks for posting it. Billzilla.
Whoa! Is this THE Billzilla!? If so you are a legend in my book. I've been a huge 4age/4agze fanatic for 20+yrs and learnt quite a lot from the info you've put out on your website. Thanks for your contribution to the 4A series of engines.
Yep, that's me. I'm just another guy with too much time on his hands. :)
@@TheBillzilla awesome, all the best and thanks again!
@@TheBillzilla hi! The 7m valves didn't fit
I bookmarked your website in my laptop since 2004 😁👍👍.
Amazing test !
Nicely done tests!! Thanks for your efforts...very instructive. I know you don't really have room for it, but building a Helmholtz tuned intake box could help the bottom end and flatten out the torque dip you're seeing in the midrange. We've done some testing on SV1000 Suzuki's and with stacks and pods they lose midrange and gain a little on the top end, but with the stock airbox it boosts bottom to midrange with little top end loss. You'd have to go above hood level to experiment with this concept, but thank you for posting up all of your tuning videos.
Great video. Straight to the point. Bonus for peaches!!
Great content. I have been enjoying the videos from Brazil.
Tks!
Peaches!!! Great comparisons.
Great data I bet this took a alot of effort to make
This test is amazing, search about Design of experiments, you can use a lot of variants in the same test and after you take the results, IS very intersting
Fascinating. Thanks for your time and efforts.
Thumbs up very ambitious R&D thank you for the effort in making these videos
So which is the champion
great work all round. length and bell.
Very scientific test! You can get even better results if you add flares to 165mm tube (best result) as flare length does not count in overall length (at least for subwoofer box design anyway).
Hey, yes this is basically what my normal intake is. Being the one at end of vid with the air filter. Total length is 185mm, but has slight taper and decent sized bellmouth, so it acts closer to the straight 165mm pipe rather than the 185mm straight
Congrats for the tests!
Now build one with variable runner length, using a metal gear high torque (RC plane type) as the actuator. And an Arduino controller (reading RPM and Throttle position).
Great video, thank you! How about testing a tapered intake runners compared to straight tubes.
my normal intake , the one at end with the filter is tapered. so that vs the pvc with the white bellmouths is an ok comparison. the tapered runner acts like a slightly shorter pipe by the looks. So kinda hard to do a direct comparison. would have to do some minor length adjustments. will keep it in mind for next time
Be interesting to see the ones in the final image cranked forward rather than upwards.
Thanks for doing this. It’s awesome and will apply it to my ITB setup
I wish there were more videos like this
Great channell,
finally something interesting and confirmed on the dyno.
Fantastic video, thank you for doing these tests!
nice, i notice some air pod filter have bellmouth to the intakerun, they seems better then noen bellmoutfilters
tremendous work mate cheers
very interesting video. Would love to see the difference in the lengths series as in the beginning of this video but with a bellmouth as I think without it you get turbulent flow making it less possible to see the effect. Also would be interested to see the effect of filter socks, from my experience they are very restrictive to flow compared to a common large filter.
Great work Dave, appreciate the amount of effort you have gone to. Thanks
Thanks for all the hard work, brilliant!!!
Have you tried double stacks yet? Would be a great test to do. To give you an example MWR stacks for GSX 1000. Two velocity stacks on top of each other. 3 tests one short, one long, and one double.
Thank you for such a great test data!
Hey, Not yet. Definitely on the list to try though. maybe next time round. Had a guy interested in 3d printing some, but hes a busy man so didn't make it into this test
HA - as below - it was entertaining watching the black breather nut 'magically' rotate back and forth. A decent effort went into this and well worth watching. Thanks. Have a nice day all. CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.