Lots of people asking to see different lengths, shapes, bends etc. I have videos covering most of these already, these 3 a most relevant ; ruclips.net/video/nqYkmCLrlEo/видео.html ruclips.net/video/kSM0JRGRYTM/видео.html ruclips.net/video/W_-4AXGTpYc/видео.html but more on my channel page
Thanks for the uploads, its an interesting topic....know sounds stupid but what would a salad bowl do as engine masters tried it and it showed an increase that wasn't expected. What i understood is that you have a larger volume of air available and there is an increase of pressure at the smaller end allowing for more flow into the engine. Obviously that maybe another thing to add to the testing a couple of sensors for IAT's and Air volume or flow. Science :) and once again big thanks :)
be careful, i did this once and the material I used gummed up my carbs. it sat on the vehicle and was exposed to gas way longer than it should have been ;)
if you are looking to make power run 4 velocity stacks like the mini white one but way shorter( I get that you can not put them closer for melting issues during testing. ) then put a plenum around all 4 to your air cleaner. larger in the front shrinking to the back to keep velocity. look inside an f1 intake.
@@johnantonopoulous6381 Watch the video in 2nd link i posted up there ^ shorter than what have here makes less power. Heat not an issue, throttles run just over ambient even on dyno
yeah, actual testing not just 'i got sponsored this free parts and now my other cars are broken too so I'll buy something else' (looking at cleetus). Hardly anyone builds NA or for reliability, just clickbait crap.
On the spiral intakes I think it would have been a more interesting comparison if the internal spiral fluting was carried through the entire intake runner length. Any airflow that was rotating would be straightened out in the straight section before the intake thus losing any potential benefits
Thanks to everyone who sent in their designs. All 3d printed designs were designed, printed & sent in by viewers. I will keep these tests running If anyone wants to send in there designs & will test once have a few. details are in description. I dont have a 3d printer so needs to be physical item. Please only low value items that you dont need returned. Couple of notes on this video. I done all the tests at same length. but due to the design of some items. namely the big white, they will act as a slightly different length runner. Aggressive taper or a big bellmouth will act as a shorter runner, which can be seen in the case of the big white design. The long blue items were designed for a smaller size throttle body and measured 46mm. were also tested as a slightly longer length than the rest, due to fitment issues.
You have 4-2-1 exhausts and even equal length ones but what if you used it as intake makifold? Or at least similar with all runnrs connected and with a big snorkel to the fron of the car? It was done in the "200sx merged collector" video but never shown its benefits/drawbacks
Blue skinnies are well designed. With some remodelling, tweaks and fine tuning these things can give you more power from 4700 strait to almost 8000. Oh and smoothen the curve which will give you more throttle response. I may give some suggestion for improving them.
I'd love to print a couple of sets for you to try... that's how the prototype ITB setup in my signature/thumbnail came to exist... 3d printed first then machined after...
@@АлбертАйнщайн-з1р I agree I think they showed the best promise for a design basis aside from the traditional design of the big whites. Skinnies are restrictive up top but the velocity increase in midrange fills cylinders better.
Just for dyno data porposes what if you run intake out of engine bay and into a Freezer or Ice chest somehow for the cold air intake to see the difference in power from different temperatures
The surface area of the intake doesn't sufficiently transfer cold to the air. What you want is an AC cooler sitting across your intake so the incoming air has to pass through the core
I guessed the white ones would win, I took my judgement from f1 design in runners from the old days of NA power If we look back those guys had spent a long time on engine dynos and optimised the potential Good work garage 4age keep up the good work
When I first saw the video length I was a little concerned there was going to be useless commentary and the typical "like and subscribe BS" but was pleasantly surprised. Just simple and to the point. Here's what's installed, the 3D model, what it looks like on the car, the dyno run, the plot. Clear and concise. Good content!
MT performance is bang on with his comment, we even went to flat plate throttle bodies, and running even coarse mesh a top the trumpets for debris protection cut the HP ..... the internal shape and dimensions from the air correction bell at the leading face of the trumpet to the back of the valve is critical too. Great testing, which showed the air correction bell is vital, and ANYTHING that disturbs or impinges, or removes energy from that moving mass is a no no ( green swirl )
I would agree with this except when it comes to ports. I've seen proven dyno data showing rougher (and slimmer!?!) ports can make more power in superbike racing with port injection/not DI engines, due to atomisation/swirl of the charge being higher plus higher velocity port filling in upper midrange where you use power often for coming out of corners on a superbike. Probably less so today with CFD so popular but it's something to look at. But I do fully agree the whole system is a tuned design. Look at the latest C8 vette design with resonance used very smartly in a very mechanically simple (looking at BMW with disdain) system.
@@N4CR those are pretty vague terms you use ' rougher ' & ' slimmer ' ! I can prove exactly the opposite. There are specific sizing relationships from valve head to the bell mouth port entry, and a myriad of surface finishes that will and will not enhance power out put / fuel economy
This was fun, surprisingly smooth power by the noodle cups. Could it be an idea to use the whole Y axis for the power plot? It would make it easier to see the differences between the runs?
Haven't figured out how to do that yet or if its even possible in this dyno sofware. joy of having obsolete software with no support and some locked menu's
I had a Toyota Celica GT you could adjust the timing with a knob no tools necessary you could push a button inside the dash and see everything that need to be looked at oil level oil pressure coolant level and many other things that car was awesome it was stolen from me by the cops before I was able to even figure out everything that was in it I was doing good at my business I had helped my girl go to school and she wanted to go out even though I didn't have tags and my car got taken that night she made up for it though but wow
@@balakay1081 I can tell you from experience your WOT performance is not effected much .When your chopping the throttle , in the midrange road course style you notice the gain or response difference .
Obsessed with this channel. Great stuff. Swapped a 4AGE into an AE86 in the 90s. Just ran a pod filter to stock TVIS manifold. Stock 4:2 cast Mani, then long secondaries that joined under the footwell. Spent a lot of time window shopping other engine mods but no $$$$
Neat! Now I wonder if there was something totally different to do, like angling all the intake ports in different directions. Like, if you could get more air altogether if they all weren't pulling from the same area.
I would suggest to various turn cyl 1 and 3 about 30 degree upwards and cyl 2 and 4 downwards. This could lead to have more intake area available especially the limited space between cylinders could be improved and let them suck more independent more air In. Rather than fighting each other ;-)
The guy that printed the screwdriver handles , previously printed some like that. i tested them in my first intake runner vid. wasn't any benefit. ruclips.net/video/nqYkmCLrlEo/видео.html
I've done some CFD testing on intake trumpets, and despite what the curve of the bellmouths would suggest, not much air is really coming in from the sides. A little bit trickles in but the air coming from the sides is approaching more slowly so it's not really restricted at all. Using the unnecessary curves to make the trumpets like that also messes with the airspeeds a tiny bit (though not much), since air has to travel faster along the inside of a bend than the outside. It ends up looking like the air is making a slight attempt to apex all the bends in the intake tubing, so for example if you curved a trumpet upward with a fairly wide bellmouth it would draw significantly more air through the lower side of the bellmouth to avoid curving as much.
I get your point but they may be fighting each other or helping each other :) (moving the air in one direction only) something like intake scavenging if you get my point
@@agerrgerra1361 Faster along the outside of the bend surely? As the outside of the curve is longer. As the air isn't a solid mass, I'd expect the velocity to remain close to the same on both inside and outside of the curve, but to just have some turbulence added.
You could try a tapered runner, I think it's roughly 7 degrees of taper to keep the boundary layer solid. Could be interesting keeping the lengths the same and testing if taper affects the power delivery
It's very hard to get the effective length the same with a taper and / or a rolled bellmouth. You can clearly see length effects in the dyno graphs by switching between the different design types, and it's notably where the design is very different that the bumps appear in different places. The skinny blue vs. the big white is a great example. Also the small white runners gave a similar torque curve to the "normal" runners, which presumably are the runners the car has already been tuned with. Stands to reason the runners most similar to the existing runners will give the best result without further tuning. The noodle cups show what a good taper can do - really smooth plot. Admittedly the taper was pretty extreme...
2 года назад+8
I was hoping for the green swirl to win! It came damn close though! The screwdriver handle is a very interesting design but I knew it would be the worst performer as it has slats that create a serious choke point. It was nice that the slats were tangential to the cylinder inside but without a kickoff to promote the air downward into the engine, I suspect it was just spinning the air and thus the engine now has to 'pull' the air in rather than it being pushed into the engine. On the plus side, the cyclonic effect the screwdriver might generate will/should damn near make that air clean AF for the engine lol!
Yeah I think the screw driver handle could be Improved. Instead of a completely flat lid Add a cone shape to the inside to direct the air not just circularly but more funnel shaped. And Increase the inlet slot size a bit. Will it beat the others? Probably not but it could be more efficient
I'd also be curious to see green swirl clockwise vs a set counter clockwise
2 года назад
@@mikelarin8037 I wonder what a properly designed screwdriver would do for the atomization, though. My hypothesis there would be it likely wouldn't bet any power worth mentioning, however, I think it might attomize the fuel much better for a total burn 🤔 science and engineering are wicked fun!
I'm loving this test and the graphs for one major reason... all these guys who think induction has nothing to do with valvetrain resonance need to watch closely. Multiple repeated tests with different induction paths... and almost all of the repeat tests show the same valve destabilization on the top end, while different setups show distinct movement of these spikes to different RPM. It's not just one part, or a handful of parts. It's how the whole system works together.
Thank you for this great video! Might be interesting to try ends with slight bends directed upwards and downwards in alternating manner to find out, if there is some interference between cylinders.
The purpose of a velocity stack is to smooth out the flow by eliminating sharp corners to reduce discontinuities and reduce turbulence. eg: the small white stacks that didnt touch had no sharp corners meaning they had no discontinuities or stagnation points. That meant smoother and less turbulent air delivery. The swirling ones do nothing but create flow restrictions on the intake. If you put swirl into it youre trying to MIX air and fuel, not mix air with air. Which means any swirling action has to happen at the heads where air and fuel are mixing together. Lastly, the shorter and smoother your intake, the less friction you get. I'm willing to bet that if you took a nicely sanded copy of the little white ones, theyd do even better.
Really interesting video and I'm a bit surprised how similar they all are. I think the baseline straight pipe should have been run a second time near the end since it's so close, but that's not really important. Aside from the one outlier, the restricted screwdriver handle design, every intake was basically the same performance or so close it's within standard deviation of the testing equipment. Perhaps those throttle bodies are more than large enough to feed the engine.
would be same result if ran baseline at the end. engine is ran hard before start any testing. you can see the only real deviation on the raw graph is between runs on the screwdriver handles. because i didn't allow proper cool down and stabilize temps between those 2 runs
or it straight up killed the possible gain from resonance, you can see it with the skinny blue ones at low end, which confirms the theory, it just needs a lot of additional work to make it useable in that range if you're ok with loosing some top end
I get the concept behind the star of david design, swirl, but they would have to be open ended to help. The green ones with the rifling is a cool concept as well, but dimples like a golf ball would be more effective in creating a boundary layer.
Really great experiments. I think it shows the fundamental concept that power is directly linked to the amount of air you can get into the combustion chamber. The starr shaped inlets with their restrictive slits show the power drop (I'm sure this would be backed up with a flow metre). What these experiments do over and above a simple flow metre is link to combustion. The location of where the fuel is introduced to the air flow would also have an impact on the efficiency of the burn - if the fuel is introduced further up the inlet there is more time for it to mix, so the swirling inlets may have additional benefits if the injectors are further up. Also, the length of the inlet dictacts any pulsing / scavenging effects, I think you can see this in the different peaks / bumps / high spots in the traces - they provide approximately the same power overall but each length has sweet spots compared to others. Really interesting stuff, lots of variables to play with and all will impact how the engine runs.
hello thank you for this video, it's been 10 years that I wanted to do admition pipes like the green ^^ thanks to you I know that it works less well. have you tested venturie style pipes?
@@ktmkantenlijmers Google will feed you results of people who think the same as you. Golden ratio is purely a mathematics novelty with some cool properties and a relationship to the primes. That's it friend
@@ktmkantenlijmers ruclips.net/video/1Jj-sJ78O6M/видео.html This video does a good job of explaining the real relevance the golden ratio the "natural phenomena" which is close to not at all lmfao
While it makes no sense from a resonant wave and physics point of view, from a entertainment point of view it would be fun to swap the intake and exhaust manifold. Running a 4-2-1 intake and open trumpets exhaust :)
Nice! I had a candle on the whities too. Minus a few vintage tuners here and there around the world there isn't much to go on, a shame most of the 60's-70's N/A knowledge was lost, we wouldn't have to re-learn it again now.
@@Garage4age Well if one is talking about lost among for example local/small time street car tuners/hobbyists, I guess he might be right. It certainly isnt lost among the more "high budget" operations such as pro/well funded amateur racing teams, in fact it has never been better among them, with CFD being more affordable etc. But yeah, for street driven cars with not all that widespread active racing going on such as this one (maybe?), he may well be right. Or maybe I misunderstood his post completely, that could also be the case.
The green swirl one could have been better if the fins diverged. That would have raised the static pressure in the pipe and would have increased the ram effect.
I also wanted to try shelves. Every 2 inches decrease the diameter. So every 2 inches from the outside in is increases slightly in diameter. Like falling down stairs. I wanted to try that in an exhaust manifold. In the middle of each bend increase the diameter just a little. Also don’t round the edge leave a sharp edge for a dramatic change in pressure.
So if you want a good intake trumpet: Large like the white cap mushroom. Clear dedfined intake swirls or dimples. Narrows down hard into a medium trumpet. All this will increase airflow into the engine as you are increasing air speed. You could even look at how wind tunnels do it 👍 The only thing we haven't factored in is vibrational resonance which will greatly affect the performance of the runners. also the engine is continuing to change speed and demand more air so the spirals may actually restrict the air flow at a certain point where as with the dimples it can flow over it...
How about variable length stacks? You can probably adapt a system out of a motorcycle like a R1 since it's a 4 cyl as well. It's nothing crazy complicated and should give you gains on top without sacrificing the midrange
I'm very surprised how decent the green swirls performed, they looked like a disaster from the start lol From this video we can conclude that trumpets shape like to be straight and non tapered, and maintaining same diameter as the inlet runners from end to end Thanks for these videos and keep it up, I love it!!
Excellent example showing why modern OEM intakes are so hard to beat. Matching diameter and length of runners helps, but getting the taper right makes a power band, a breeze to work with, or a nightmare to drive/tune outside of its power band. That's why the cup of noodles shows such smooth power. Imo on this engine the runners should be slightly longer and decently tapered.
Longer intake will give him more torque in the lower rpms, less hp in the higher rpms. It's crazy how Bernoulli's principal works along with air stacking and fluid dynamics, velocity through an intake system. Also skin friction. I love this stuff 💯👌 Personally I want my torque down low, I'm not the type to redline my engine all the time.
depends on rpm running to. and what you call a long runner. but longer runner will make more power everywhere over something short, say 250mm from valve, long is a win win if space is available
This was a fun and interesting video! I’ve always wanted to own a car powered by a 4A-GE engine. You’ve earned a subscriber today. Much love from Texas!
if you put a texture like a golf ball, inside the pipe, it will create a vortice, and low pressure area around the pimples, that increase the torque at low rpms
Something like 15 years ago at Fluent (now part of Ansys) we messed around with bellmouths in CFD simply to derive geometries. I don't recall which elliptical entry offered the best summation of behavior, but Gordon Blair(RIP) had the data.
I did a 6 month co-op (an internship) at a lab a few years ago and was asked to learn fluent from scratch. Many youtube videos and a fluid dynamics textbook later I was still so lost... but every time I see it mentioned I want to get back to learning...
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing. I 3D printed a basic trumpet on a forward facing inlet to my sealed air box. I figure when I’m going down a straight it can’t hurt.
Compairing the results, I wolud try the bigger ones but a little bit longer. Probably it will not drop as much in the low range, with "Same high range" Thank you for sharing your knouledge
On round pipe opening, the minimum clearance in front of each should be at least the lengh of one radius of the opening of the pipe. The cross sectional of the opening surounding all these pipes end should at least also be equal or superior otherwise the true restriction become the availlable clearance around all the pipes instead of the pipe opening themself. Great video btw!
The pvc tubing actually looks like 2" pipe size. There is pieces called a bellmouth for underground electric vault installation that come in standard pipe sizes and are injection moulded pvc. Some of them look really good with something really close to an elliptical entry.
Hey, Yeah its underground electrical duct. measures about 51mm id. Its pretty easy to heat up and shape, by pushing it over something. can make something that looks like the small white ones pretty easy
Cool vid!! How about a test of the winner with and without the extensions - see if the runner length or the proximity to the inner wing affects power & torque.
of course we always want great power but to better see the difference between the intake runners it might be better to stick to the same shape, but all a bit smaller so that the motor is a bit choked and the difference becomes larger and therefore clearer. Of course you can also increase the pressure and flow in the computer simulation and see what happens. I also wonder if the opening surface is kept the same for the different models (especially for the screwdriver handle). nice to test all this, in the past this was all much more work than now.
I'm not going to spend the time to read almost 300 comments, but one of the things that stands out to me is how all of the versions with a straight runner (the aluminum extensions, the blue skinnies) have -- and maybe reinforce -- dips in 3 places as the revs are climbing. The short straight red runner extensions, and the soup cups only have two dips. I think this indicates that you would see some mid-range improvements tapering your extensions 2~3°. Airflow *hates* straight sections. One of the take-aways from the Smith & Morrison book, "Scientific design of intake and exhaust systems". It's old, but worthwhile.
The extensions have a small taper in them. you will find the noodle cups are acting like a shorter runner. due to massive diameter. all the peaks are pushed to the right and the last one is happening right at the end of graph after peak power normally would be. so makes less peak but holds on a little longer
Can you 3d print curved pipes? A slight bend will help you get longer runners for a little more torque. Now the runners are obstructed by the shock tower. Make a nice easy bend and aim it upwards. Include a velocity stack/radiused entry at the inlet. Call it a mammoth tusk. Use ass big of a radius as possible to avoid the shock tower. I believe that is why the tornadoes did so poorly. 1 and 4 had more open holes than 2 and 3.. their intake slots were too close to each other and they had to fight each other for the air. Great video. Keep up the good work.
the green swirl will work better if the fuel injector is mounted in the mouth of the trumpet , then you will get a nice mix for combustion , maybe idea for a future video externally mounted injectors vs " standard "
I'm not knocking innovation or any attempts to try new things. But I'm a mechanic and fabricator in the motorcycle and race car world and know a lot about the function and history of engine components. velocity stacks is something they figured out a long long time ago. Like even before cars or internal combustion was invented. They figured it out hundreds of years ago with wind instruments like the trumpets and then later with the phonograph. The louder they can get the trumpet or phonograph and the more peojection it has the more air flow is created. So they figured it out by just which one makes a louder sound. And They work the same both ways. In or out. Sucking or blowing. Going in it compresses the air. Going out it expands it. But yeah. Still cool to see people trying new things.
Having done oodles of dyno work it’s known that short trumpets make hr at higher rev and long lower down. If want park hp use short and if want torque and earlier power but sacrifice couple of hp use long. Or she’ll out for some variable trumpets.
Interesting to see that as long as the runners are big enough in diameter. And not baffled like the screwdriver ones. It’s almost a negligible difference between the trumpet styles.
Make some variable length velocity stacks using old-school choke cable where you could push or pull on it and make the stacks go taller or shorter like the old Mazda rotary race car
Definitely seen a little low end with the skinny blue one but you're spinnies I think atomized the fuel a little bit better and you had a little smoother curve at the top
you should use variadle Intake runners for more power, the trick is to find out the resonante frequency of the tubes, and aling them with the rpm of the engine, (+rpm=shorted intake tubes). you can make some type of sliding tube for the intake and add the best horn so far, like what they did on formula cars back in the day).
What about dimpled design trumpets. The internal wall of the trumpets were dimpled. Golf balls are dimpled to make them more aerodynamic, and someone on youtube put dimples in his intake manifold to increase power. That would be interesting.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Lots of people asking to see different lengths, shapes, bends etc. I have videos covering most of these already, these 3 a most relevant ; ruclips.net/video/nqYkmCLrlEo/видео.html ruclips.net/video/kSM0JRGRYTM/видео.html ruclips.net/video/W_-4AXGTpYc/видео.html but more on my channel page
Thanks for the uploads, its an interesting topic....know sounds stupid but what would a salad bowl do as engine masters tried it and it showed an increase that wasn't expected. What i understood is that you have a larger volume of air available and there is an increase of pressure at the smaller end allowing for more flow into the engine.
Obviously that maybe another thing to add to the testing a couple of sensors for IAT's and Air volume or flow.
Science :) and once again big thanks :)
be careful, i did this once and the material I used gummed up my carbs. it sat on the vehicle and was exposed to gas way longer than it should have been ;)
nice CFD!
if you are looking to make power run 4 velocity stacks like the mini white one but way shorter( I get that you can not put them closer for melting issues during testing. ) then put a plenum around all 4 to your air cleaner. larger in the front shrinking to the back to keep velocity. look inside an f1 intake.
@@johnantonopoulous6381 Watch the video in 2nd link i posted up there ^ shorter than what have here makes less power. Heat not an issue, throttles run just over ambient even on dyno
I’m amazed how smooth the power delivery was with the noodle cups.
Attention all “Car” RUclipsrs, this is CONTENT. This is the greatest video of 2021 in my opinion. Beautiful 🤟🏻🤣
yeah, actual testing not just 'i got sponsored this free parts and now my other cars are broken too so I'll buy something else' (looking at cleetus). Hardly anyone builds NA or for reliability, just clickbait crap.
On the spiral intakes I think it would have been a more interesting comparison if the internal spiral fluting was carried through the entire intake runner length. Any airflow that was rotating would be straightened out in the straight section before the intake thus losing any potential benefits
The throttle blade will always work against them, running a slide throttle would be the only way,
Thanks to everyone who sent in their designs. All 3d printed designs were designed, printed & sent in by viewers. I will keep these tests running If anyone wants to send in there designs & will test once have a few. details are in description. I dont have a 3d printer so needs to be physical item. Please only low value items that you dont need returned.
Couple of notes on this video. I done all the tests at same length. but due to the design of some items. namely the big white, they will act as a slightly different length runner. Aggressive taper or a big bellmouth will act as a shorter runner, which can be seen in the case of the big white design. The long blue items were designed for a smaller size throttle body and measured 46mm. were also tested as a slightly longer length than the rest, due to fitment issues.
You have 4-2-1 exhausts and even equal length ones but what if you used it as intake makifold? Or at least similar with all runnrs connected and with a big snorkel to the fron of the car? It was done in the "200sx merged collector" video but never shown its benefits/drawbacks
Blue skinnies are well designed. With some remodelling, tweaks and fine tuning these things can give you more power from 4700 strait to almost 8000. Oh and smoothen the curve which will give you more throttle response. I may give some suggestion for improving them.
I'd love to print a couple of sets for you to try... that's how the prototype ITB setup in my signature/thumbnail came to exist... 3d printed first then machined after...
A Variable Length Intake Would Be Awesome.
Just Like This One
ruclips.net/video/04uhsLqKwF8/видео.html
@@АлбертАйнщайн-з1р I agree I think they showed the best promise for a design basis aside from the traditional design of the big whites.
Skinnies are restrictive up top but the velocity increase in midrange fills cylinders better.
Just for dyno data porposes what if you run intake out of engine bay and into a Freezer or Ice chest somehow for the cold air intake to see the difference in power from different temperatures
Lol, I love it
I think it will be best since it will take air outside of the engine bay but the plenum will to be perfect
The surface area of the intake doesn't sufficiently transfer cold to the air. What you want is an AC cooler sitting across your intake so the incoming air has to pass through the core
You can just calculate this, it's about 1% more power for every 10 degree of air temp. Gale Banks did a thing about this.
Yeah as above, is pretty easy to calculate If air temp is the only variable.
I love the perfect amount of talking versus just getting on with it showing the data. Well done Sir, well done 👍
I guessed the white ones would win, I took my judgement from f1 design in runners from the old days of NA power
If we look back those guys had spent a long time on engine dynos and optimised the potential
Good work garage 4age keep up the good work
Shouldn't have read the comments during the Ads
Like you say, nothing new here, all been done in the ‘60’s by Vizard, Longman, etc.
In the 60's 70's some cars had stacks that were adjustable, they were linked to throttle cable and constantly changed their lenght
@@mrsnezbit2219 That's cool, but you'd want the length to change based on rpm, not throttle.
@@lennert8530 it was the 60's hahah in 2021 sure we could do that
When I first saw the video length I was a little concerned there was going to be useless commentary and the typical "like and subscribe BS" but was pleasantly surprised. Just simple and to the point. Here's what's installed, the 3D model, what it looks like on the car, the dyno run, the plot. Clear and concise. Good content!
Your tests are really interesting. Thanks for all the work!
MT performance is bang on with his comment, we even went to flat plate throttle bodies, and running even coarse mesh a top the trumpets for debris protection cut the HP ..... the internal shape and dimensions from the air correction bell at the leading face of the trumpet to the back of the valve is critical too.
Great testing, which showed the air correction bell is vital, and ANYTHING that disturbs or impinges, or removes energy from that moving mass is a no no ( green swirl )
I would agree with this except when it comes to ports. I've seen proven dyno data showing rougher (and slimmer!?!) ports can make more power in superbike racing with port injection/not DI engines, due to atomisation/swirl of the charge being higher plus higher velocity port filling in upper midrange where you use power often for coming out of corners on a superbike. Probably less so today with CFD so popular but it's something to look at.
But I do fully agree the whole system is a tuned design. Look at the latest C8 vette design with resonance used very smartly in a very mechanically simple (looking at BMW with disdain) system.
@@N4CR those are pretty vague terms you use ' rougher ' & ' slimmer ' ! I can prove exactly the opposite. There are specific sizing relationships from valve head to the bell mouth port entry, and a myriad of surface finishes that will and will not enhance power out put / fuel economy
This is like _The Fan Showdown_ but with ITB runners. I like it, thank you
Beautiful! You can clearly hear there's much more trumpety reverberation with the skinny ones.
Pretty crazy how much that timing belt moves in the higher rev range
I think there is an issue with the belt itself. need to look into it further
This was fun, surprisingly smooth power by the noodle cups. Could it be an idea to use the whole Y axis for the power plot? It would make it easier to see the differences between the runs?
Haven't figured out how to do that yet or if its even possible in this dyno sofware. joy of having obsolete software with no support and some locked menu's
@@Garage4age export to Excel?
@@Garage4age no CSV export on that ?
You're like the 4age equivalent to project Farm, love the videos
Baseline 130kw on the straight tubes...that's 177 bhp. That's impressive for a n/a 1600. I love these engines. My mk1 M/2 was a wonderful car.
I had a Toyota Celica GT you could adjust the timing with a knob no tools necessary you could push a button inside the dash and see everything that need to be looked at oil level oil pressure coolant level and many other things that car was awesome it was stolen from me by the cops before I was able to even figure out everything that was in it I was doing good at my business I had helped my girl go to school and she wanted to go out even though I didn't have tags and my car got taken that night she made up for it though but wow
Those swirled stacks would benefit most with a barrel throttle, I believe. The throttle plate will stop rotation as it enters the port
A diesel might like too them because you can never get enough swirl
Yea, I wonder what the effect would be if you put the swirl down the intake runners of a single throttle body intake
Never thought of that. Good thinking!
@@balakay1081 I can tell you from experience your WOT performance is not effected much .When your chopping the throttle , in the midrange road course style you notice the gain or response difference .
@@balakay1081 see, this is why I like YT comment sections. We get brilliant little ideas like yours
Great job!
Good video 👌
Next time double velocity stack
I love the induction sound on the smaller pipes.
Keep ut the great work, love the content. Love how deep you go into the mods you can do!
Obsessed with this channel. Great stuff. Swapped a 4AGE into an AE86 in the 90s. Just ran a pod filter to stock TVIS manifold. Stock 4:2 cast Mani, then long secondaries that joined under the footwell. Spent a lot of time window shopping other engine mods but no $$$$
wait, don’t AE86s came with 4AGE from factory? Or that was just for JDM models?
Neat! Now I wonder if there was something totally different to do, like angling all the intake ports in different directions. Like, if you could get more air altogether if they all weren't pulling from the same area.
I would suggest to various turn cyl 1 and 3 about 30 degree upwards and cyl 2 and 4 downwards. This could lead to have more intake area available especially the limited space between cylinders could be improved and let them suck more independent more air In. Rather than fighting each other ;-)
The guy that printed the screwdriver handles , previously printed some like that. i tested them in my first intake runner vid. wasn't any benefit. ruclips.net/video/nqYkmCLrlEo/видео.html
I've done some CFD testing on intake trumpets, and despite what the curve of the bellmouths would suggest, not much air is really coming in from the sides. A little bit trickles in but the air coming from the sides is approaching more slowly so it's not really restricted at all.
Using the unnecessary curves to make the trumpets like that also messes with the airspeeds a tiny bit (though not much), since air has to travel faster along the inside of a bend than the outside. It ends up looking like the air is making a slight attempt to apex all the bends in the intake tubing, so for example if you curved a trumpet upward with a fairly wide bellmouth it would draw significantly more air through the lower side of the bellmouth to avoid curving as much.
I get your point but they may be fighting each other or helping each other :) (moving the air in one direction only) something like intake scavenging if you get my point
@@agerrgerra1361 Faster along the outside of the bend surely? As the outside of the curve is longer. As the air isn't a solid mass, I'd expect the velocity to remain close to the same on both inside and outside of the curve, but to just have some turbulence added.
Need to find a variable length runner design. Love the content thank you for doing this.
Like This One Right Here.
ruclips.net/video/04uhsLqKwF8/видео.html
Thought this be obvious.
@@LowMedow it's not 1998, there's no reason it shouldn't be stepper motor driven.
You could try a tapered runner, I think it's roughly 7 degrees of taper to keep the boundary layer solid. Could be interesting keeping the lengths the same and testing if taper affects the power delivery
It's very hard to get the effective length the same with a taper and / or a rolled bellmouth. You can clearly see length effects in the dyno graphs by switching between the different design types, and it's notably where the design is very different that the bumps appear in different places. The skinny blue vs. the big white is a great example.
Also the small white runners gave a similar torque curve to the "normal" runners, which presumably are the runners the car has already been tuned with. Stands to reason the runners most similar to the existing runners will give the best result without further tuning.
The noodle cups show what a good taper can do - really smooth plot. Admittedly the taper was pretty extreme...
I was hoping for the green swirl to win! It came damn close though!
The screwdriver handle is a very interesting design but I knew it would be the worst performer as it has slats that create a serious choke point. It was nice that the slats were tangential to the cylinder inside but without a kickoff to promote the air downward into the engine, I suspect it was just spinning the air and thus the engine now has to 'pull' the air in rather than it being pushed into the engine.
On the plus side, the cyclonic effect the screwdriver might generate will/should damn near make that air clean AF for the engine lol!
Yeah I think the screw driver handle could be Improved. Instead of a completely flat lid Add a cone shape to the inside to direct the air not just circularly but more funnel shaped. And Increase the inlet slot size a bit. Will it beat the others? Probably not but it could be more efficient
I'd also be curious to see green swirl clockwise vs a set counter clockwise
@@mikelarin8037 I wonder what a properly designed screwdriver would do for the atomization, though.
My hypothesis there would be it likely wouldn't bet any power worth mentioning, however, I think it might attomize the fuel much better for a total burn 🤔 science and engineering are wicked fun!
I'm loving this test and the graphs for one major reason... all these guys who think induction has nothing to do with valvetrain resonance need to watch closely. Multiple repeated tests with different induction paths... and almost all of the repeat tests show the same valve destabilization on the top end, while different setups show distinct movement of these spikes to different RPM.
It's not just one part, or a handful of parts. It's how the whole system works together.
Thank you for this great video!
Might be interesting to try ends with slight bends directed upwards and downwards in alternating manner to find out, if there is some interference between cylinders.
I tested some like that in a previous video. the guy that printed the screwdriver handles made them ruclips.net/video/nqYkmCLrlEo/видео.html
The purpose of a velocity stack is to smooth out the flow by eliminating sharp corners to reduce discontinuities and reduce turbulence.
eg: the small white stacks that didnt touch had no sharp corners meaning they had no discontinuities or stagnation points. That meant smoother and less turbulent air delivery.
The swirling ones do nothing but create flow restrictions on the intake. If you put swirl into it youre trying to MIX air and fuel, not mix air with air. Which means any swirling action has to happen at the heads where air and fuel are mixing together.
Lastly, the shorter and smoother your intake, the less friction you get. I'm willing to bet that if you took a nicely sanded copy of the little white ones, theyd do even better.
Really interesting video and I'm a bit surprised how similar they all are. I think the baseline straight pipe should have been run a second time near the end since it's so close, but that's not really important. Aside from the one outlier, the restricted screwdriver handle design, every intake was basically the same performance or so close it's within standard deviation of the testing equipment. Perhaps those throttle bodies are more than large enough to feed the engine.
would be same result if ran baseline at the end. engine is ran hard before start any testing. you can see the only real deviation on the raw graph is between runs on the screwdriver handles. because i didn't allow proper cool down and stabilize temps between those 2 runs
Kind of impressed with the swirly,,it seemed to widen and smooth out the power curve
or it straight up killed the possible gain from resonance, you can see it with the skinny blue ones at low end, which confirms the theory, it just needs a lot of additional work to make it useable in that range if you're ok with loosing some top end
I get the concept behind the star of david design, swirl, but they would have to be open ended to help. The green ones with the rifling is a cool concept as well, but dimples like a golf ball would be more effective in creating a boundary layer.
Really great experiments.
I think it shows the fundamental concept that power is directly linked to the amount of air you can get into the combustion chamber.
The starr shaped inlets with their restrictive slits show the power drop (I'm sure this would be backed up with a flow metre).
What these experiments do over and above a simple flow metre is link to combustion. The location of where the fuel is introduced to the air flow would also have an impact on the efficiency of the burn - if the fuel is introduced further up the inlet there is more time for it to mix, so the swirling inlets may have additional benefits if the injectors are further up.
Also, the length of the inlet dictacts any pulsing / scavenging effects, I think you can see this in the different peaks / bumps / high spots in the traces - they provide approximately the same power overall but each length has sweet spots compared to others.
Really interesting stuff, lots of variables to play with and all will impact how the engine runs.
hello thank you for this video, it's been 10 years that I wanted to do admition pipes like the green ^^ thanks to you I know that it works less well.
have you tested venturie style pipes?
Noodles for the win.
Imagine getting beaten by the noodle car
Wow! Awesome video! I wonder how well it would do without the metal spacer with these intakes?
Check out my previous vid, i ran the small white without spacers
Not like he's gonna go to Australia
kinda cool that theres a noticable difference between all the shapes
SOMEONE PLEASE create something with the "golden ratio", would be very interresting to find out what nature's signature would do to airflow.
Probably nothing because the golden ratio is only relevant to plant stocks lmfao
@@agentJonah You might want to Google it before responding next time. Golden ratio is relevant to a lot more things then you might know.
@@ktmkantenlijmers Google will feed you results of people who think the same as you. Golden ratio is purely a mathematics novelty with some cool properties and a relationship to the primes. That's it friend
@@ktmkantenlijmers ruclips.net/video/1Jj-sJ78O6M/видео.html
This video does a good job of explaining the real relevance the golden ratio the "natural phenomena" which is close to not at all lmfao
@@ktmkantenlijmers alittle corny but it explains the real math, not the hippy dippy shit people claim about the golden ratio and phi
No, thank you for printing the designs. You da man!
While it makes no sense from a resonant wave and physics point of view, from a entertainment point of view it would be fun to swap the intake and exhaust manifold. Running a 4-2-1 intake and open trumpets exhaust :)
This is so stupid...
I need to see this :D
i liked the names you put down in the notes, i label stuff the same way. sometimes only i can understand my notes lol
Have you tried a golf ball surface on the inside of the runners?
Not yet. maybe someone will send me some for the next round
Nice! I had a candle on the whities too.
Minus a few vintage tuners here and there around the world there isn't much to go on, a shame most of the 60's-70's N/A knowledge was lost, we wouldn't have to re-learn it again now.
How is it lost? The engine in this video wasnt around back then, was it? So I take it you mean other engines?
@@GoldenCroc Maybe hes referring to all the shiny short runner setups and a whole lot of boost, that everyone runs these days.
@@Garage4age Well if one is talking about lost among for example local/small time street car tuners/hobbyists, I guess he might be right.
It certainly isnt lost among the more "high budget" operations such as pro/well funded amateur racing teams, in fact it has never been better among them, with CFD being more affordable etc.
But yeah, for street driven cars with not all that widespread active racing going on such as this one (maybe?), he may well be right.
Or maybe I misunderstood his post completely, that could also be the case.
Loving the ramen cups. What about 650ml Sapporo beer cans maybe?
I may have to do a novelty item shootout, i think the noodles may almost edge out the peach cans. and yes someone send me some beer haha
Double brown cans ftw.
@@Garage4age id happily send you some cans of Sapporo, for science of course
Please try the Meiji Yan Yan cup next time for the pure JDM power 😆
The green swirl one could have been better if the fins diverged. That would have raised the static pressure in the pipe and would have increased the ram effect.
Yeah#### i won :)
Wow there are so many ideas coming in for what to do next. with improving prototype designs. Get your 3D printers warmed up guys!
I was expecting a bigger difference between the straight pipes and the trumpets. So that was a surprise!
Lol the most impressive run here was with the noodle cups.
I put one on my Briggs and Stratton 5 horse lawn mower and it loves it!!! I used a paper towel cap that I cut a hole in working great
I think I just found my new favorite channel. Thanks
I also wanted to try shelves. Every 2 inches decrease the diameter. So every 2 inches from the outside in is increases slightly in diameter. Like falling down stairs. I wanted to try that in an exhaust manifold. In the middle of each bend increase the diameter just a little. Also don’t round the edge leave a sharp edge for a dramatic change in pressure.
So if you want a good intake trumpet:
Large like the white cap mushroom.
Clear dedfined intake swirls or dimples.
Narrows down hard into a medium trumpet.
All this will increase airflow into the engine as you are increasing air speed.
You could even look at how wind tunnels do it 👍
The only thing we haven't factored in is vibrational resonance which will greatly affect the performance of the runners.
also the engine is continuing to change speed and demand more air so the spirals may actually restrict the air flow at a certain point where as with the dimples it can flow over it...
How about variable length stacks? You can probably adapt a system out of a motorcycle like a R1 since it's a 4 cyl as well. It's nothing crazy complicated and should give you gains on top without sacrificing the midrange
will build a variable setup at some stage.
You could print in place some variable length runners, actuated by servo and tune them to achieve optimum power/torque.
Went to the local engine depot a few times in the last week. A few 20v 4A-GEs there.
I'm very surprised how decent the green swirls performed, they looked like a disaster from the start lol
From this video we can conclude that trumpets shape like to be straight and non tapered, and maintaining same diameter as the inlet runners from end to end
Thanks for these videos and keep it up, I love it!!
Excellent example showing why modern OEM intakes are so hard to beat. Matching diameter and length of runners helps, but getting the taper right makes a power band, a breeze to work with, or a nightmare to drive/tune outside of its power band. That's why the cup of noodles shows such smooth power.
Imo on this engine the runners should be slightly longer and decently tapered.
Your KE70 is stunning!
Longer intake will give him more torque in the lower rpms, less hp in the higher rpms. It's crazy how Bernoulli's principal works along with air stacking and fluid dynamics, velocity through an intake system. Also skin friction. I love this stuff 💯👌 Personally I want my torque down low, I'm not the type to redline my engine all the time.
depends on rpm running to. and what you call a long runner. but longer runner will make more power everywhere over something short, say 250mm from valve, long is a win win if space is available
This was a fun and interesting video! I’ve always wanted to own a car powered by a 4A-GE engine. You’ve earned a subscriber today. Much love from Texas!
Could you try opening the stars in the end so it can flow some volume? Love the channel!
if you put a texture like a golf ball, inside the pipe, it will create a vortice, and low pressure area around the pimples, that increase the torque at low rpms
Something like 15 years ago at Fluent (now part of Ansys) we messed around with bellmouths in CFD simply to derive geometries. I don't recall which elliptical entry offered the best summation of behavior, but Gordon Blair(RIP) had the data.
I did a 6 month co-op (an internship) at a lab a few years ago and was asked to learn fluent from scratch. Many youtube videos and a fluid dynamics textbook later I was still so lost... but every time I see it mentioned I want to get back to learning...
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing. I 3D printed a basic trumpet on a forward facing inlet to my sealed air box. I figure when I’m going down a straight it can’t hurt.
Good shit boys, been looking forward to this video. Unsurprising results but always good to have empirical data.
Crikey - even blind Freddy could have seen that those star ones wouldn't perform! Love your work :)
Compairing the results, I wolud try the bigger ones but a little bit longer. Probably it will not drop as much in the low range, with "Same high range"
Thank you for sharing your knouledge
On round pipe opening, the minimum clearance in front of each should be at least the lengh of one radius of the opening of the pipe. The cross sectional of the opening surounding all these pipes end should at least also be equal or superior otherwise the true restriction become the availlable clearance around all the pipes instead of the pipe opening themself. Great video btw!
7:50 damn, that timing belt dance gave me chills mate!
Yeah seems to be a crappy belt, Its all over the place even at idle
The swirl port design is cool concept
The pvc tubing actually looks like 2" pipe size. There is pieces called a bellmouth for underground electric vault installation that come in standard pipe sizes and are injection moulded pvc. Some of them look really good with something really close to an elliptical entry.
Hey, Yeah its underground electrical duct. measures about 51mm id. Its pretty easy to heat up and shape, by pushing it over something. can make something that looks like the small white ones pretty easy
Cool vid!! How about a test of the winner with and without the extensions - see if the runner length or the proximity to the inner wing affects power & torque.
ruclips.net/video/kSM0JRGRYTM/видео.html
@@Garage4age Spot on 👍
of course we always want great power but to better see the difference between the intake runners it might be better to stick to the same shape, but all a bit smaller so that the motor is a bit choked and the difference becomes larger and therefore clearer. Of course you can also increase the pressure and flow in the computer simulation and see what happens. I also wonder if the opening surface is kept the same for the different models (especially for the screwdriver handle). nice to test all this, in the past this was all much more work than now.
I’m interested in the coil packs. I’ll look back in your video library.
Epic fun to be had with the best sounding 4 pot on earth
Very interesting experiment and that sound is just wonderful.
Length is what makes the difference. A variable length design which switches at an rpm point will be the best design.
Who cares about the outcomes? Trumpets for life. Everyone these days has a turbo. It's nice to see someone exploring the n/a life. Thankyou!
I'm not going to spend the time to read almost 300 comments, but one of the things that stands out to me is how all of the versions with a straight runner (the aluminum extensions, the blue skinnies) have -- and maybe reinforce -- dips in 3 places as the revs are climbing. The short straight red runner extensions, and the soup cups only have two dips. I think this indicates that you would see some mid-range improvements tapering your extensions 2~3°. Airflow *hates* straight sections. One of the take-aways from the Smith & Morrison book, "Scientific design of intake and exhaust systems". It's old, but worthwhile.
The extensions have a small taper in them. you will find the noodle cups are acting like a shorter runner. due to massive diameter. all the peaks are pushed to the right and the last one is happening right at the end of graph after peak power normally would be. so makes less peak but holds on a little longer
Can you 3d print curved pipes? A slight bend will help you get longer runners for a little more torque. Now the runners are obstructed by the shock tower. Make a nice easy bend and aim it upwards. Include a velocity stack/radiused entry at the inlet. Call it a mammoth tusk. Use ass big of a radius as possible to avoid the shock tower.
I believe that is why the tornadoes did so poorly. 1 and 4 had more open holes than 2 and 3.. their intake slots were too close to each other and they had to fight each other for the air.
Great video. Keep up the good work.
hey, i tried some like that in this video ruclips.net/video/nqYkmCLrlEo/видео.html
the green swirl will work better if the fuel injector is mounted in the mouth of the trumpet , then you will get a nice mix for combustion , maybe idea for a future video externally mounted injectors vs " standard "
I'm sure a ribbed coolant hose would do as good as those things.
Specially if you roll up the end like on a sleeve to have a nice smooth edge.
Steve Vizard. "Tuning the A series engine" did a heap of flow bench tests on bell mouth vs straight trumpets. A very interesting read
David
I'm not knocking innovation or any attempts to try new things. But I'm a mechanic and fabricator in the motorcycle and race car world and know a lot about the function and history of engine components. velocity stacks is something they figured out a long long time ago. Like even before cars or internal combustion was invented. They figured it out hundreds of years ago with wind instruments like the trumpets and then later with the phonograph. The louder they can get the trumpet or phonograph and the more peojection it has the more air flow is created. So they figured it out by just which one makes a louder sound. And They work the same both ways. In or out. Sucking or blowing. Going in it compresses the air. Going out it expands it. But yeah. Still cool to see people trying new things.
The street cred of the noodle cups more than makes up for the few HP lost. Alternatively, run noodle cups over proper stacks, best of both worlds 👌😎
Having done oodles of dyno work it’s known that short trumpets make hr at higher rev and long lower down. If want park hp use short and if want torque and earlier power but sacrifice couple of hp use long. Or she’ll out for some variable trumpets.
Interesting to see that as long as the runners are big enough in diameter. And not baffled like the screwdriver ones. It’s almost a negligible difference between the trumpet styles.
Would love to see how an air box would have worked. Velocity stacks into an air box just like a Honda CB750
Whoever designed that first blue set has zero idea how velocity stacks function! 😂😂😂 Bravo!
I'd be interested to see if clockwise or anti clockwise swirls made any difference. Probably wouldn't register but still could be interesting.
Make some variable length velocity stacks using old-school choke cable where you could push or pull on it and make the stacks go taller or shorter like the old Mazda rotary race car
Definitely seen a little low end with the skinny blue one but you're spinnies I think atomized the fuel a little bit better and you had a little smoother curve at the top
you should use variadle Intake runners for more power, the trick is to find out the resonante frequency of the tubes, and aling them with the rpm of the engine, (+rpm=shorted intake tubes).
you can make some type of sliding tube for the intake and add the best horn so far, like what they did on formula cars back in the day).
Have you tried the dimple design - golf ball?
What about dimpled design trumpets. The internal wall of the trumpets were dimpled.
Golf balls are dimpled to make them more aerodynamic, and someone on youtube put dimples in his intake manifold to increase power.
That would be interesting.
Came here looking for a comment like this and was not disappointed! haha Definitely would be interested to see the results of this!
Interesting to see that there was minimal change down low.