Agreed, and silicon o-rings are cheap. You could also flanged bushing insert at each clamp bolt to keep a consistent torque spec on the intake. Just google "flanged bushing" and you will get the idea.
@@StandRacingHey could you take an LS7 ITB Cross Ram the borla LS3 style ones that have a straight shot into the heads. 103mm intake tube so the top of the the tube radius feeds right into the opposite intake so the percussion wave feeds into the opposite side. Keep the top lexon. Basically I want to take it off make it look like the hoonicorn ram air intake swap it out see the ITB with a lexon cover maybe put an air to water intcooler in all of that space in the valley. There's no classic looking boosted air intakes. Modern mercury SB4 Drag style holly or custom LME or Ferrari looking Edelbrock. The pass through carb is tall. Best I've seen is a Whipple Edelbrock but it doesn't look period correct. There were some Porsches I think back in the day that had kind of a sheet metal shroud but I haven't seen much. 😊 Sorry about the ramp apparently I know exactly what I want but they don't sell it and I'm not skilled enough to make it. If you are planning on selling them the ls market is a huge market.
Definitely a different idea. I think you mix the concepts of pressure, velocity, and momentum, but I do like the creativity. Will be interested in your testing! Great work.
Sweet clamping brackets. You’ve put a lot of talent into all of your parts! With the cantilever length of the runner, you may want to consider a brace to avoid cracking the runner when the engine shakes or goes through vibrations. Somewhere there will be a harmonic that resonates the long plastic runner. Again, beautiful fab all around.
Love to see the cost effective design considerations. Far to many automotive enthusiasts are kept from projects do to high product costs. Fair and honest pricing for great parts like this is a must in the community.
Awesome work man, impressive for someone that is just learning from open sources! We need more people like you, figuring stuff out and learning! Creep especially happens with plastics that are above their Tg (Glass Transition Temperature), which polypropylene has a very low Tg and is almost always above that temperature so it quite literally flows like a fluid, there fore causing creep at a more drastic level.
I would go further and recommend you try to print it out of ULTEM, as that material has one of the highest Tg in thermoplastics, however it is much more difficult to store, dehydrate, and print. And it's a bit more $ than CF Nylon, which would be my second choice.
Having a common plenum can get more power if tuned correctly because the intake runners make both negative and positive pressure pulses in the plenum, so if you tune it correctly you can get the positive pulse to slightly help ram the air into the other cylinders. Also you have to put the intake at the highest pressure area of the front end, which is above the splitter if you have one, or if you don't it's the flattest area of the front end.
What I liked about this prototype is it addresses a lot of my concerns on a ITB set up. I have a 2.5 Duratec in a 2011 Ford fusion with a 6 speed manual. I simply wanted a daily "sleeper build" and wanted to try ITBs. The problem is tuning and hot intake temperatures. I loved the fact that a silicon coupler is used on the MAF sensor adaptor, meaning I can use an adapter for my build. I have a true cold air intake where the filter goes into the bumper and draws air from outside the vehicle. Since the Fusions have a true functional bumper louver, the filter is able to draw ambient temperature air and it creates a sort of "ram air" affect at high speeds. When monitoring my temperatures, I often see my intake temps roughly 2-3F higher than ambient, which is significantly better than the stock 15-20F higher than ambient. I also see a slight pressure increase at higher speeds over stock. I see roughly 0.5-0.8psi of "boost" from the ram air affect. That isn't much but it means the engine has to do less work to pull air into the intake. The result is a couple extra HP and my MPG increased to 35hwy/29 city. In other works, If this prototype works, I will definitely use this because I can retain my intake set up and can still use the stock ECU for tuning. If I could change one thing, I would like to see gaskets on the intake manifold plate. I trust gaskets over silicon any day. I might be able to use a Dremel and create channels for the stock Duratec intake gaskets, or possibly use an aftermarket ITB manifold.
Check out BBR. A lot of us 2006-2015 Miata folks are putting ford fusion engines into the miata (Mazda designed the Duratec engine for Ford, it's a drop in swap). There is a lot of discussion on the "NC" aka Mk III miata forums on the "2.5 swap" which you can learn a lot from.
Genius and novel idea with the intake Venturi system to counteract the long runner length - if this works, this is groundbreaking. Have you run any fluid simulations on the part to try and predict how it will react? I have access to fluid dynamics software through my engineering college; if you’d like to look into flow simulation to optimize the design I may be able to help.
Ive been a big fan of Making for Motorsport. I have a background in CAD, but never comitted to the work field in it. His videos inspired me to get back into it. Buy a 3D Printer and get making the parts no one makes! Engine swapped cars are the sales pitch for 3D Modeling!
This is bad ass dude, keep it up, 3D printing is the future and with new materials being able to withstand engine bay heat you can 3D print a usable part in a day instead of months.
This is really fantastic. Whats even better is that i havent seen a single negative comment and SO many people are giving such great advice to help you build even better revisions.
Any reason to use silicone instead of printing grooves for O-rings? For the trumpets you could likely find standard sizes. For the cover you could cut O-ring cord to length. Just a thought.
I've been contemplating making a manifold for r1 carbs on my car and this is the inspiration I wanted. This is awesome and well beyond what I planned on doing.
Great job on taking on such a difficult task. I looked into making my own intake manifold for my car as I needed to add additional fuel injectors and meth nozzles and got as far as designing the intake flange which turned out great. Just need to do the hard part now lol. As mentioned adding an O ring will give you much better sealing and less chance of leakage due to being under compression while the manifold is moving about. If you are thinking of adding boost I would say it's a must. Most factory intake manifold/ cam cover and thermostat housing are all Nylon with glassfibre re enforcement cars are like this now due to weight and money saving. It is a pain as no longer can you just drill a hole and weld an injector boss in. Definitely going to follow this as you are making content that pushes boundaries and using new tech for what it's designed for unlike some who like to just print a flipping benchie🤨 that ends up as tomorrows trash.
Absolutely love this video, thank you for going into such detail! As someone looking to get back into a miata, the idea of being able to run both an ITB setup and a turbo is extremely appealing!
Great video! I've myself have designed and printed itb manifold, And tried a bunch of different material petg,petg-cf, nylon-cf etc. But the one I've found out to work the best/longest is a PC-CF blend, it's just amazing, just works! All the other materials started to leak eventually. On the dyno with the hood up even the plain petg worked amazing! Probably made over 200 dyno runns, But real street driving (hard driving) they all fail eventually :( except PC blend. Great channel subbed for sure!
I would look into mixing your concept with the geometry of a "tesla valve" where the looped sections would be where you could make the cylinder crossovers.
That interesting, you know I did actually think about using tesla valves but it didn't make it to the drawing board because I don't think I can make one in a usable diameter without taking up a crazy amount of space.
Back in the day, hot rodders and drag racers used to take long sections of plastic pipe or radiator hose and make adapters for the pipe to be plumbed between the carb and cylinder head. They would cut down the tube/pipe and test speed and hp curves for each given length the pipe was cut to. The best performing length got implemented on their builds but with a more permanent material obviously.
Thanks for your video. You have a nice design and nice 3d printed parts. To 3D print such large parts with technical materials is challenging, may be it will be worth to have an actively heated chamber (PA+CF ,PA+Fiberglass, Blended PC, PC/ABS, PSU/PPSU. Those last one are quiet interesting too and some are flame retardant which is a nice feature for motorsport). From my little knowledge there are many components/parameters to tune for the max volumetric efficiency (cam timing, valve size, length/volume/diameter of intake/exhaust): I used to play with Lotus Engine Simulation, there is a freeware version where you can setup a mono cylinder and simulate various cases taking in account such parameters.
Nice. I love this direction!! You're knocking on the door of an idea I had a while back. A velocity-based dual mode intake manifold 🤔 basically one without moving parts.
Subscribed. I’ve been planning to make 3D printed car parts. I have just recently started researching different items for high heat durability such as ABS. You seem very knowledgable and I’m excited to see how this product performs!
Very impressive work, especially by doing your own research. I really like the concept and hope you get it into production. One thing though, consider using o-rings. I doubt anyone going this far into a build will be bothered with having o-rings as consumables. I personally dislike RTV for parts that I may have to disassemble; it sticks and takes alot of patience to remove. Good luck!
Not sure if the physics works out on that Venturi stuff you’ve designed there, and if it does then I’m not sure it’s going to be a huge improvement, but I’m very curious to see when you do dyno runs with and without it!
I would prefer Orings and bushing inserts over the silicone and plate strategy, but that should help with distortion and spreading the load. Overall, it’s cool to see the thought process that goes into designing this system. I always teach my kids to “use their engineering brains” when putting together nuts, bolts and washers and think about what purpose each of them serve. Think about why they designed it the way they did and it will help you when building something for the first time. I’m currently designing an intake manifold in the same manner for a 1982 kz1100. Keeping going man your content is top notch.
just a quick note on creep: my understanding from aerospace studies was that the deformation is due to long term vibration exposure. Planes moving through the air see lots of vibration which is why it is a more studied phenomenon there - temperature has a large part to play here as well. Printing ~50% infill should make the parts fairly robust, to help avoid layer seperation. if you want to further avoid creep then O-rings on the mating surface should be more substantial then RTV at absorbing or muting the vibrations the head transfers to the intake.
I really dig the idea, I may have to try some ideas I have on the printer. Random things that came to mind while watching, all with respect and no particular order or reason. You touched on resonate frequency, Have you considered using inserts or brackets that can allow you to tune to frequencies? It may be worth it to consider a small tuned anti-reversion implementation on each individual runner, will have to test how dimensions and length from manifold etc effect to have it dialed in. The next thing I always ran into when having log stacked style runners is the plenum, it will always be a short-coming for many aspects. They almost always have uneven pulses due to intake pressure changes at each runner, the last runner almost always gets the bulk while the first starves due to velocity. The venturi will help "prime" the runner but if the air is not there it will still starve at low speeds until you can achieve poor man's boost. Because you are printing these it does give you the ability to build a more pressurized system with guided flow to help keep the flow pressurized over each individual cylinder or simply change the characteristics of where the air enters in the first place. The last thing would be do not forget macro- Does the hood/fenders/grill etc create a negative pressure inside of the engine bay? Even with ram air you are still spending the majority of your time not in the poor man's boost range and in fact you are likely subjecting a negative pressure around the filter and sucking air out during the average cruising speed with a ram air system that has no large capacity charge tank, I think you will find that doing the math you are far exceeding the available air mass in the entire system. Consider looking at adding an inline charge tank and helping with keeping it pressurized, sometimes able to reach terminal velocity before the charge tank. I am only offering advice and you may be way ahead of me on all of it already, just wanted to offer my thoughts. Consider looking into T.O.O. The Old One - he may still have his info floating around on great theories, even Mr. Banks has some of the best knowledge around when it comes to fluid dynamics and the internal combustion engine. Anyway I will be following this, Thanks!
The venturi idea reminds me of the intake design on the new C8 Z06. From everything I've read, it has two plenums with a butterfly valve in between that controls the mass flow rate of air and allows for it to be "peaky" at multiple points. I've also designed and 3D printed intake manifolds for Formula SAE and I've used a carbon fiber reinforced nylon (NylonX) for my fuel injector ports and ASA for the rest of the intake runners plus the plenum. I've been thinking though that a fiberglass based material called NylonG might be superior due to its increased resistance to impacts. Also sidenote, there is an article or two I'd highly recommend. Firstly, "Best Bell" by Gordon P Blair and W. Melvin Cahoon gives a good starting ratio for elliptical bellmouths on intake runners. Second, "Combined Effects of Variable Intake Manifold Length, Variable Valve Timing and Duration on the Performance of an Internal Combustion Engine" by Pauras Sawant and S. Bari (should be on researchgate.net) gives out a couple good runner length equations for a starting point. From all the Ricardo simulations I had run, Engelmann's formula for runner length was the highest performance one (very very slightly) compared to their proposed one on cam duration. As to how to determine your target RPM for runner length, we started out very basic in a program called OptimumLap and setup our car and track in a point mass simulation, then created a histogram of the car's RPM across a lap. The best way though is to log your RPM around a track somehow, then pull that data into python or matlab and then create a histogram to figure out what RPM you're spending the most time at. We concluded ~8100 RPM on our motor that redlines at 9,700 RPM
You could go rubber or-ings, but I like the idea of a multi layer steel gasket. It would act as a heat shield to stop “creep”… or glass transition movement.
So, i have some inconclusive data for this. In college i 3d printed a 2 piece plenum in ABS for the engine of a CBR 600RR. The wall thickness as 3 mm. Static pressure test gave me data on an internal 0.4 atmosphere for prolonged time without any issues whatsoever. We ran that plenum for 3 years on our little formula SAE car and retired it because we move on to electric cars after. We didnt test it to failure tho
@@crashTestGuru Still rather impressive on a high compression small engine, but yes, i'm just curious to see where the point of failure is going to be at haha
Even if this doesn’t work ( I reckon there is a good chance that it will though, the engineering and thought that you have put into it will be well worth it. Very impressive mate.
love the level of creativity & Ingenuity. Make sure you do your due diligence of acquiring your IP & patient your design then speak with fellow mechanical & aerospace engineers to enhance your design.
Beautiful work, I want one for my custom turbo Mercedes! xD Ive always loved the idea of ITB's, but it can get complicated for a turbo application. This looks beautiful and simple, and (just thinking out loud) could be printed in 2 banks of 3 cylinders to fit a straight 6, and have the plenum cover all 6 cylinders. The velocity stack/venturi system you described would be more complex for a 6 cylinder, id probably just run short stack as a test run. Idk im just thinking out loud, im glad i came across your channel. I love what youre doing and youve sparked my curiosity and given me inspiration. Keep up the good work, ill be watching! 😁
You could use carburators and use the venturis in those, A carburator has one advantage over EFI where the higher the velocity the more the fuel droplets are sheared and broken up. while at lower rpm the fuel droplet sizes are limited by the emulsion tube, it maximizes volumetric efficiency because the fuel can be set up to evaporate right after the intake valve closes in the whole rpm range. while for EFI you can only really make that ideal for one rpm.
Venturi is a restriction , which causes power losses of about 10% compared to conventional multipoint, port fuel injection intake manifold . BMW even skipped the throttle because of the pumping loses reason and created “ Valvetronic” system which throttle the intake by varying the lift of the intake valves . It improves not only the power output of the engine but its efficiency as well , respectively the fuel consumption.
Wow those pieces you had mad up to inhibit “creep” look really well made! Maybe you could go for some extra large melt-in thread inserts, and drill them out. Steel inserts would be advisable. Put them in prior to annealing(heat treating). It should stop any crush of the nylon. I’m thinking of using Cerakote C-7800(650c 1200f resistance) to seal the 3d print as a final process. 🤜🏼🤛🏼🇦🇺🍀😎
love the idea. GM has heads that have a small ramp to create a vortex in the cylinder. Maybe a ramp to the small hole/hose that connects each stack together to help create positive pressure on the next intake runner? Just an idea :) love the explanation! :) good luck!
Another benefit from plenum setups with a directed ram air cone filter, is the lower ambient IAT. Even better with an airbox that separates the hot air coming off the radiator.
Exhaust scavenging happens also with the Camshaft overlap. When both intake and exhaust valves are open. Engine Masters on Motor Trend has some great tech and dyno tests on Cams/Exhaust and even Intake runners short vs long and how it tilts the curve. I printed my own intake ram scoop to replace the stock under hood fender attachment AIT are within 10 degrees warmer of actual ambient compared to what it was before. Once i'm at speed its 5-10 degrees cooler.
That was a very interesting video, can't wait to see if it all works out. I'm in the uk and live near an emissions controlled area, which miatas don't qualify for, but this kit would make me buy the car just to try it out
The second it clicked in my head I said that’s freaking sick in a room of people I don’t know 😂😂. Anyway, this is a really cool. Porsche has implemented a variable resonance intake manifold on their NA flat 6 engines with ITBs for some time. This allows the pressure wave of air that hits one cylinders closed intake valve to be sent back to the opposite bank perfectly in time for the opening of the next cylinders intake valve. The result is 1-2 psi of positive pressure in a naturally aspirated engine at high rpm. Hence the 8,500-9,000rpm redline and a top heavy power curve. Your method is different, but obviously so is the engine. Hopefully a similar outcome.
Might think of a g10 phenolic spacer between the head and intake, very thermally dead. Put one between upper and lower intakes on a car and it went from too hot to touch to slightly warm. It’s easy to cut, hell you can do it with a jig saw if you really want. Wonder about threading into it so you could bolt it to the head and intake to spacer so the bolts wouldn’t even warm the plastic/deform it.
Going through other videos on this topic now: at 4:50 you more or less state that intake runner tuning is less impactful on performance than exhaust - of course really "it depends" but often intake tuning is more effective. The purpose of exhaust pressure wave tuning is, as you mention, to help "scavenge" the cylinder. First, that means getting the spent gases out to make room for fresh mix, secondly (and maybe more important for power) it momentarily lowers the pressure in the combustion chamber. When this is timed to happen while the intake valve is open, that means a stronger vacuum to pull fresh mix into the cylinder. Remember, gas will "try" to flow any time there is a pressure differential, and as you point out in this video, momentum also helps, but you've got to build up that momentum via pressure differentials across orifices like valve seats and runner inlets. However, you can only pull 1 atmosphere of vacuum (no such thing as negative absolute pressure), so the exhaust's effect on pulling fresh air in is limited by that (and by the short durations of blowdown and overlap). On the intake side, having a positive pressure wave arrive when the intake valve is open further increases the pressure differential - when exhaust and intake work together to time the negative wave from the exhaust and positive wave from the intake, you get that temporary supercharger effect. And since the intake pressure wave has a longer duration to push fresh mix in (intake valve open event) compared to exhaust pulling fresh mix in (only the duration of the negative pressure pulse that happens during overlap), the intake effect is often more pronounced. Of course they both need to work in harmony with the cam profiles. Still filling myself in on where you're at, so please take above with a grain of salt.
That's really useful insight. There's a lot I wasn't considering in my assumption that exhaust tuning affects the bottom line more than intake tuning. I knew that they heavily relied on each other but you've zoomed in some detail I wasn't noticing. Thanks!
have to make sure the air pressure is the same where the stacks draw air in, as i think you will have to open the throats and make each one slightly larger than the previous ITB in line to feed each cylinder the same amount of air
Im looking at doing something similar on my Prelude so its good to see someone else doing it. Also I'm pretty sure that this is how the Pulsar GTiR is setup.
I know with the nylon 66 and nylon 6 blend I use, it can be annealed in an oven. I’m keen to print ITB manifold for my car. I will use a steel container and fine grain salt, to pack around the manifold. A jig that holds the manifold submerged in the salt, wouldn’t go astray.
Gotta put a rpm-governed valve one your crossovers, or it will give you some weird power bands. Progressive opening would be better, but on/off like most mfgs do might be more simple to tune, akin to vtec crossover. I also think you need bigger crossover tubing. You are dealing with short times, and small pressure differentials, so any drag will radically harm effectiveness.
5:20 the substitute teacher vibe is stronk with this one :D
The class was well behaved. You would've thought I was talking to an empty garage if you didn't know any better.
🤣@@StandRacing
instead of RTV sealing the plenum make a groove for an O-ring it will make assembly and dissambly much easier and cleaner
Agreed, and silicon o-rings are cheap. You could also flanged bushing insert at each clamp bolt to keep a consistent torque spec on the intake. Just google "flanged bushing" and you will get the idea.
a tpu gasket would also work, as its an na intake in this case
@@maartenvandenberge7116 high temp tpu works for coolant gaskets too.
This is so awesome! Great job dude
@@-Primer-some sizes and material are expensive
i need to hear this immediately
Now you can! New video is up ruclips.net/video/Nh9KcbJ1u9c/видео.html
how does this man not have tons of subscribers, lots of effort and work into this 🎉
Thank you! We're chugging along!
Share the video!!
They’ll come eventually 🤣
@@StandRacing I just came across this and I said the same thing to myself, hope to see this channel blow up!! GREAT CONTENT
@@StandRacingHey could you take an LS7 ITB Cross Ram the borla LS3 style ones that have a straight shot into the heads. 103mm intake tube so the top of the the tube radius feeds right into the opposite intake so the percussion wave feeds into the opposite side. Keep the top lexon. Basically I want to take it off make it look like the hoonicorn ram air intake swap it out see the ITB with a lexon cover maybe put an air to water intcooler in all of that space in the valley. There's no classic looking boosted air intakes. Modern mercury SB4 Drag style holly or custom LME or Ferrari looking Edelbrock. The pass through carb is tall. Best I've seen is a Whipple Edelbrock but it doesn't look period correct. There were some Porsches I think back in the day that had kind of a sheet metal shroud but I haven't seen much. 😊 Sorry about the ramp apparently I know exactly what I want but they don't sell it and I'm not skilled enough to make it. If you are planning on selling them the ls market is a huge market.
Definitely a different idea. I think you mix the concepts of pressure, velocity, and momentum, but I do like the creativity. Will be interested in your testing!
Great work.
Thanks so much, more to come!
Making For Motorsport is amazing!
Sweet clamping brackets. You’ve put a lot of talent into all of your parts!
With the cantilever length of the runner, you may want to consider a brace to avoid cracking the runner when the engine shakes or goes through vibrations. Somewhere there will be a harmonic that resonates the long plastic runner.
Again, beautiful fab all around.
That is a good idea. It's extremely thin to begin with maybe some extra structure would help as well
Love to see the cost effective design considerations. Far to many automotive enthusiasts are kept from projects do to high product costs. Fair and honest pricing for great parts like this is a must in the community.
Agreed
Not only is it good for the community, I can't afford to design it any other way! 😂
Awesome work man, impressive for someone that is just learning from open sources! We need more people like you, figuring stuff out and learning!
Creep especially happens with plastics that are above their Tg (Glass Transition Temperature), which polypropylene has a very low Tg and is almost always above that temperature so it quite literally flows like a fluid, there fore causing creep at a more drastic level.
I would go further and recommend you try to print it out of ULTEM, as that material has one of the highest Tg in thermoplastics, however it is much more difficult to store, dehydrate, and print. And it's a bit more $ than CF Nylon, which would be my second choice.
@@CamdenWallraff What is your opinion on using polycarbonate for such types of engine parts?
Hey I say if I don't know what I'm doing when I start, I'll know by the time I'm done!
Having a common plenum can get more power if tuned correctly because the intake runners make both negative and positive pressure pulses in the plenum, so if you tune it correctly you can get the positive pulse to slightly help ram the air into the other cylinders.
Also you have to put the intake at the highest pressure area of the front end, which is above the splitter if you have one, or if you don't it's the flattest area of the front end.
Stoked to see results and potentially in the future get this printed and thrown onto my project miata!
What I liked about this prototype is it addresses a lot of my concerns on a ITB set up. I have a 2.5 Duratec in a 2011 Ford fusion with a 6 speed manual. I simply wanted a daily "sleeper build" and wanted to try ITBs. The problem is tuning and hot intake temperatures. I loved the fact that a silicon coupler is used on the MAF sensor adaptor, meaning I can use an adapter for my build. I have a true cold air intake where the filter goes into the bumper and draws air from outside the vehicle. Since the Fusions have a true functional bumper louver, the filter is able to draw ambient temperature air and it creates a sort of "ram air" affect at high speeds. When monitoring my temperatures, I often see my intake temps roughly 2-3F higher than ambient, which is significantly better than the stock 15-20F higher than ambient. I also see a slight pressure increase at higher speeds over stock. I see roughly 0.5-0.8psi of "boost" from the ram air affect. That isn't much but it means the engine has to do less work to pull air into the intake. The result is a couple extra HP and my MPG increased to 35hwy/29 city. In other works, If this prototype works, I will definitely use this because I can retain my intake set up and can still use the stock ECU for tuning. If I could change one thing, I would like to see gaskets on the intake manifold plate. I trust gaskets over silicon any day. I might be able to use a Dremel and create channels for the stock Duratec intake gaskets, or possibly use an aftermarket ITB manifold.
Check out BBR. A lot of us 2006-2015 Miata folks are putting ford fusion engines into the miata (Mazda designed the Duratec engine for Ford, it's a drop in swap).
There is a lot of discussion on the "NC" aka Mk III miata forums on the "2.5 swap" which you can learn a lot from.
This is extremely cool and friends and I were just discussing this days ago!
You are a true engineer with an eye for convenient details, very satisfying
Genius and novel idea with the intake Venturi system to counteract the long runner length - if this works, this is groundbreaking. Have you run any fluid simulations on the part to try and predict how it will react? I have access to fluid dynamics software through my engineering college; if you’d like to look into flow simulation to optimize the design I may be able to help.
I've been searching for a 3d printed intake manifold, I know they will become common soon. Glad to see you working on this problem. Pruno
Ive been a big fan of Making for Motorsport.
I have a background in CAD, but never comitted to the work field in it.
His videos inspired me to get back into it. Buy a 3D Printer and get making the parts no one makes!
Engine swapped cars are the sales pitch for 3D Modeling!
Just wanted to jump in and say that I too love Making For Motorsport, hopefully he sees this shout out you gave him.
Nice! I like it impressive that you learned modeling from just the two videos! I need to go back and watch more of his
This is bad ass dude, keep it up, 3D printing is the future and with new materials being able to withstand engine bay heat you can 3D print a usable part in a day instead of months.
This is really fantastic. Whats even better is that i havent seen a single negative comment and SO many people are giving such great advice to help you build even better revisions.
It's been incredible 👍
Any reason to use silicone instead of printing grooves for O-rings? For the trumpets you could likely find standard sizes. For the cover you could cut O-ring cord to length. Just a thought.
It was mostly to skip a step to get the first test model completed faster. I'll see where it's convenient and where it's not and design from there.
@@StandRacing Definitely makes sense! You'll be making changes I'm sure. Iterative agile design.
@@StandRacing Sorry BTW I watched half the video first and now I see you addressed that later!
I've been contemplating making a manifold for r1 carbs on my car and this is the inspiration I wanted. This is awesome and well beyond what I planned on doing.
Carbs, or throttle bodies? Throttle bodies and fuel injection is going to be superior to any carburettor.
Excited for the A/B comparison between stack designs on the dyno!
Great job on taking on such a difficult task. I looked into making my own intake manifold for my car as I needed to add additional fuel injectors and meth nozzles and got as far as designing the intake flange which turned out great. Just need to do the hard part now lol. As mentioned adding an O ring will give you much better sealing and less chance of leakage due to being under compression while the manifold is moving about. If you are thinking of adding boost I would say it's a must. Most factory intake manifold/ cam cover and thermostat housing are all Nylon with glassfibre re enforcement cars are like this now due to weight and money saving. It is a pain as no longer can you just drill a hole and weld an injector boss in. Definitely going to follow this as you are making content that pushes boundaries and using new tech for what it's designed for unlike some who like to just print a flipping benchie🤨 that ends up as tomorrows trash.
Absolutely love this video, thank you for going into such detail! As someone looking to get back into a miata, the idea of being able to run both an ITB setup and a turbo is extremely appealing!
Man you are doing everything I've ever wanted to.
Great video! I've myself have designed and printed itb manifold, And tried a bunch of different material petg,petg-cf, nylon-cf etc. But the one I've found out to work the best/longest is a PC-CF blend, it's just amazing, just works! All the other materials started to leak eventually. On the dyno with the hood up even the plain petg worked amazing! Probably made over 200 dyno runns, But real street driving (hard driving) they all fail eventually :( except PC blend. Great channel subbed for sure!
Peek would work great
Thanks for this! I was definitely interested in what are the best materials to mount on the engine
this channel will blow up - watch this space - currently 693 subscribers including myself. Keen to see next month!
Thank you!
I would look into mixing your concept with the geometry of a "tesla valve" where the looped sections would be where you could make the cylinder crossovers.
That interesting, you know I did actually think about using tesla valves but it didn't make it to the drawing board because I don't think I can make one in a usable diameter without taking up a crazy amount of space.
First video I've ever watched of yours. Amazing. I'd def buy this manifold for my NA8 build.
Back in the day, hot rodders and drag racers used to take long sections of plastic pipe or radiator hose and make adapters for the pipe to be plumbed between the carb and cylinder head. They would cut down the tube/pipe and test speed and hp curves for each given length the pipe was cut to. The best performing length got implemented on their builds but with a more permanent material obviously.
Thanks for your video. You have a nice design and nice 3d printed parts. To 3D print such large parts with technical materials is challenging, may be it will be worth to have an actively heated chamber (PA+CF ,PA+Fiberglass, Blended PC, PC/ABS, PSU/PPSU. Those last one are quiet interesting too and some are flame retardant which is a nice feature for motorsport). From my little knowledge there are many components/parameters to tune for the max volumetric efficiency (cam timing, valve size, length/volume/diameter of intake/exhaust): I used to play with Lotus Engine Simulation, there is a freeware version where you can setup a mono cylinder and simulate various cases taking in account such parameters.
This plenum combined with 4AGE ITBs or Hummelinks' kit and a turbo, it'd be like a mini RB
Nice. I love this direction!! You're knocking on the door of an idea I had a while back. A velocity-based dual mode intake manifold 🤔 basically one without moving parts.
Subscribed. I’ve been planning to make 3D printed car parts. I have just recently started researching different items for high heat durability such as ABS. You seem very knowledgable and I’m excited to see how this product performs!
Very impressive work, especially by doing your own research. I really like the concept and hope you get it into production. One thing though, consider using o-rings. I doubt anyone going this far into a build will be bothered with having o-rings as consumables. I personally dislike RTV for parts that I may have to disassemble; it sticks and takes alot of patience to remove. Good luck!
great video man, lots of info and effort, hope this blows up and ur channel too
this is interesting. staying tuned to see how this all works out.
most interesting video ive seen in a while, thank you for your knowledge. keep it up, this is awesome!
Not sure if the physics works out on that Venturi stuff you’ve designed there, and if it does then I’m not sure it’s going to be a huge improvement, but I’m very curious to see when you do dyno runs with and without it!
Glad i found ya man im loving the effort
Dyno no plenum open ITB, Plenum, Plenum + velocity stack then Plenum + Velocity Stack + tubes - that'd be a cracking video!
I would prefer Orings and bushing inserts over the silicone and plate strategy, but that should help with distortion and spreading the load. Overall, it’s cool to see the thought process that goes into designing this system. I always teach my kids to “use their engineering brains” when putting together nuts, bolts and washers and think about what purpose each of them serve. Think about why they designed it the way they did and it will help you when building something for the first time. I’m currently designing an intake manifold in the same manner for a 1982 kz1100. Keeping going man your content is top notch.
Great stuff. Looking forward to see how this design goes on the dyno. 2570 subs so far and I suspect a lot more incoming rather rapidly. Me included.
Love the idea, love the design, great work man!
I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how you were controlling air volume
Cool stuff man.
just a quick note on creep: my understanding from aerospace studies was that the deformation is due to long term vibration exposure. Planes moving through the air see lots of vibration which is why it is a more studied phenomenon there - temperature has a large part to play here as well. Printing ~50% infill should make the parts fairly robust, to help avoid layer seperation. if you want to further avoid creep then O-rings on the mating surface should be more substantial then RTV at absorbing or muting the vibrations the head transfers to the intake.
I really dig the idea, I may have to try some ideas I have on the printer. Random things that came to mind while watching, all with respect and no particular order or reason. You touched on resonate frequency, Have you considered using inserts or brackets that can allow you to tune to frequencies? It may be worth it to consider a small tuned anti-reversion implementation on each individual runner, will have to test how dimensions and length from manifold etc effect to have it dialed in. The next thing I always ran into when having log stacked style runners is the plenum, it will always be a short-coming for many aspects. They almost always have uneven pulses due to intake pressure changes at each runner, the last runner almost always gets the bulk while the first starves due to velocity. The venturi will help "prime" the runner but if the air is not there it will still starve at low speeds until you can achieve poor man's boost. Because you are printing these it does give you the ability to build a more pressurized system with guided flow to help keep the flow pressurized over each individual cylinder or simply change the characteristics of where the air enters in the first place. The last thing would be do not forget macro- Does the hood/fenders/grill etc create a negative pressure inside of the engine bay? Even with ram air you are still spending the majority of your time not in the poor man's boost range and in fact you are likely subjecting a negative pressure around the filter and sucking air out during the average cruising speed with a ram air system that has no large capacity charge tank, I think you will find that doing the math you are far exceeding the available air mass in the entire system. Consider looking at adding an inline charge tank and helping with keeping it pressurized, sometimes able to reach terminal velocity before the charge tank. I am only offering advice and you may be way ahead of me on all of it already, just wanted to offer my thoughts. Consider looking into T.O.O. The Old One - he may still have his info floating around on great theories, even Mr. Banks has some of the best knowledge around when it comes to fluid dynamics and the internal combustion engine. Anyway I will be following this, Thanks!
Super cool! Definitely earned a subscription!
That looks brilliant. Well done! 👏👏👏👏
The venturi idea reminds me of the intake design on the new C8 Z06. From everything I've read, it has two plenums with a butterfly valve in between that controls the mass flow rate of air and allows for it to be "peaky" at multiple points. I've also designed and 3D printed intake manifolds for Formula SAE and I've used a carbon fiber reinforced nylon (NylonX) for my fuel injector ports and ASA for the rest of the intake runners plus the plenum. I've been thinking though that a fiberglass based material called NylonG might be superior due to its increased resistance to impacts. Also sidenote, there is an article or two I'd highly recommend.
Firstly, "Best Bell" by Gordon P Blair and W. Melvin Cahoon gives a good starting ratio for elliptical bellmouths on intake runners.
Second, "Combined Effects of Variable Intake Manifold Length, Variable Valve Timing and Duration on the Performance of an Internal Combustion Engine" by Pauras Sawant and S. Bari (should be on researchgate.net) gives out a couple good runner length equations for a starting point. From all the Ricardo simulations I had run, Engelmann's formula for runner length was the highest performance one (very very slightly) compared to their proposed one on cam duration.
As to how to determine your target RPM for runner length, we started out very basic in a program called OptimumLap and setup our car and track in a point mass simulation, then created a histogram of the car's RPM across a lap. The best way though is to log your RPM around a track somehow, then pull that data into python or matlab and then create a histogram to figure out what RPM you're spending the most time at. We concluded ~8100 RPM on our motor that redlines at 9,700 RPM
You could go rubber or-ings, but I like the idea of a multi layer steel gasket.
It would act as a heat shield to stop “creep”… or glass transition movement.
subscribed. Now here's to hoping the algorithm overlords recommend the dyno run videos when they come out
Curious to see which pressures compromise the manifold, would like to see a video on stress testing.
So, i have some inconclusive data for this. In college i 3d printed a 2 piece plenum in ABS for the engine of a CBR 600RR. The wall thickness as 3 mm.
Static pressure test gave me data on an internal 0.4 atmosphere for prolonged time without any issues whatsoever. We ran that plenum for 3 years on our little formula SAE car and retired it because we move on to electric cars after.
We didnt test it to failure tho
@@crashTestGuru Still rather impressive on a high compression small engine, but yes, i'm just curious to see where the point of failure is going to be at haha
Even if this doesn’t work ( I reckon there is a good chance that it will though, the engineering and thought that you have put into it will be well worth it. Very impressive mate.
love the level of creativity & Ingenuity. Make sure you do your due diligence of acquiring your IP & patient your design then speak with fellow mechanical & aerospace engineers to enhance your design.
Beautiful work, I want one for my custom turbo Mercedes! xD
Ive always loved the idea of ITB's, but it can get complicated for a turbo application. This looks beautiful and simple, and (just thinking out loud) could be printed in 2 banks of 3 cylinders to fit a straight 6, and have the plenum cover all 6 cylinders. The velocity stack/venturi system you described would be more complex for a 6 cylinder, id probably just run short stack as a test run.
Idk im just thinking out loud, im glad i came across your channel. I love what youre doing and youve sparked my curiosity and given me inspiration. Keep up the good work, ill be watching! 😁
Awesome work dude!
You could use carburators and use the venturis in those, A carburator has one advantage over EFI where the higher the velocity the more the fuel droplets are sheared and broken up. while at lower rpm the fuel droplet sizes are limited by the emulsion tube, it maximizes volumetric efficiency because the fuel can be set up to evaporate right after the intake valve closes in the whole rpm range. while for EFI you can only really make that ideal for one rpm.
Venturi is a restriction , which causes power losses of about 10% compared to conventional multipoint, port fuel injection intake manifold . BMW even skipped the throttle because of the pumping loses reason and created “ Valvetronic” system which throttle the intake by varying the lift of the intake valves . It improves not only the power output of the engine but its efficiency as well , respectively the fuel consumption.
Wow those pieces you had mad up to inhibit “creep” look really well made!
Maybe you could go for some extra large melt-in thread inserts, and drill them out.
Steel inserts would be advisable.
Put them in prior to annealing(heat treating).
It should stop any crush of the nylon.
I’m thinking of using Cerakote C-7800(650c 1200f resistance) to seal the 3d print as a final process. 🤜🏼🤛🏼🇦🇺🍀😎
love the idea. GM has heads that have a small ramp to create a vortex in the cylinder. Maybe a ramp to the small hole/hose that connects each stack together to help create positive pressure on the next intake runner? Just an idea :) love the explanation! :) good luck!
This is pretty awesome man.
Another benefit from plenum setups with a directed ram air cone filter, is the lower ambient IAT. Even better with an airbox that separates the hot air coming off the radiator.
This is so outside the box, I want to see it win
Exhaust scavenging happens also with the Camshaft overlap. When both intake and exhaust valves are open. Engine Masters on Motor Trend has some great tech and dyno tests on Cams/Exhaust and even Intake runners short vs long and how it tilts the curve.
I printed my own intake ram scoop to replace the stock under hood fender attachment AIT are within 10 degrees warmer of actual ambient compared to what it was before. Once i'm at speed its 5-10 degrees cooler.
This is really cool , i know the altezza itb kit is really hard to find nowadays or just to expensive. 3d printing is making strides in the diy world
Keep on I'll be following u forever u rock men !!
Thank you!
That was a very interesting video, can't wait to see if it all works out. I'm in the uk and live near an emissions controlled area, which miatas don't qualify for, but this kit would make me buy the car just to try it out
He beat me to it I was planning on trying to make 3D printed ITBs especially with my new high temp nozzle
Trevor Moore and Kevin Bacon's test tube child
Any chance you could share the STL files? Id like to iterate upon the design to be compatible with zx14r ITBs for my build. Great project!
Awesome efforts. I’ll be amazed if the MAf transfer table is no longer accurate.
Dude this is amazing
wkyn really likes his cars now
I love stumbling upon channels like this. Gonna be following this project closely. Any plans to make one for the 1.6?
The second it clicked in my head I said that’s freaking sick in a room of people I don’t know 😂😂. Anyway, this is a really cool. Porsche has implemented a variable resonance intake manifold on their NA flat 6 engines with ITBs for some time. This allows the pressure wave of air that hits one cylinders closed intake valve to be sent back to the opposite bank perfectly in time for the opening of the next cylinders intake valve. The result is 1-2 psi of positive pressure in a naturally aspirated engine at high rpm. Hence the 8,500-9,000rpm redline and a top heavy power curve. Your method is different, but obviously so is the engine. Hopefully a similar outcome.
😂 nice. I'm no Porsche engineer but we'll see how it goes
Might think of a g10 phenolic spacer between the head and intake, very thermally dead. Put one between upper and lower intakes on a car and it went from too hot to touch to slightly warm. It’s easy to cut, hell you can do it with a jig saw if you really want.
Wonder about threading into it so you could bolt it to the head and intake to spacer so the bolts wouldn’t even warm the plastic/deform it.
Interesting, I've thought about using a spacer and haven't yet considered garolite. Thanks 👍
I love this guy because he looks like the dude from TYKYK
Great video man! I'll stay tuned for the next one to see the progress. Cheers from Canary Islands!
Going through other videos on this topic now: at 4:50 you more or less state that intake runner tuning is less impactful on performance than exhaust - of course really "it depends" but often intake tuning is more effective. The purpose of exhaust pressure wave tuning is, as you mention, to help "scavenge" the cylinder. First, that means getting the spent gases out to make room for fresh mix, secondly (and maybe more important for power) it momentarily lowers the pressure in the combustion chamber. When this is timed to happen while the intake valve is open, that means a stronger vacuum to pull fresh mix into the cylinder.
Remember, gas will "try" to flow any time there is a pressure differential, and as you point out in this video, momentum also helps, but you've got to build up that momentum via pressure differentials across orifices like valve seats and runner inlets. However, you can only pull 1 atmosphere of vacuum (no such thing as negative absolute pressure), so the exhaust's effect on pulling fresh air in is limited by that (and by the short durations of blowdown and overlap). On the intake side, having a positive pressure wave arrive when the intake valve is open further increases the pressure differential - when exhaust and intake work together to time the negative wave from the exhaust and positive wave from the intake, you get that temporary supercharger effect. And since the intake pressure wave has a longer duration to push fresh mix in (intake valve open event) compared to exhaust pulling fresh mix in (only the duration of the negative pressure pulse that happens during overlap), the intake effect is often more pronounced. Of course they both need to work in harmony with the cam profiles.
Still filling myself in on where you're at, so please take above with a grain of salt.
That's really useful insight. There's a lot I wasn't considering in my assumption that exhaust tuning affects the bottom line more than intake tuning. I knew that they heavily relied on each other but you've zoomed in some detail I wasn't noticing. Thanks!
have to make sure the air pressure is the same where the stacks draw air in, as i think you will have to open the throats and make each one slightly larger than the previous ITB in line to feed each cylinder the same amount of air
Ram charging starts around 60mph depending on scoop/inlet shape.
The real bonuses from itb's is the cam can have different profiles and overlap.
Very interesting. Whether it works or not we'll have to see on the dyno, but certainly hope that you could succeed.
i want you to test the venturi effect to see if it is working how you have illustrated, really cool
Like, subscribed and now commenting. I wanna see this channel grow! nice video dude
Amazing! I've always wondered what goes into designing a plenum for an ITB turbo setup. Curious how the testing will be and what you'll learn from it!
I like the design of it, maybe use tougher material also where it mates. Good job man
Im looking at doing something similar on my Prelude so its good to see someone else doing it.
Also I'm pretty sure that this is how the Pulsar GTiR is setup.
Big things coming from this channel 🔥
I would most definitely add a hydro filter if you plan to have a scoop directly in front of the air filter.
Hell yeah man. I'm just getting into 3d printers. I want to start making some custom car stuff with it
Keep up the great work man we love it!
🤜🏽💥🤛🏽
Very interesting...🤔 I'll be looking out for the dyno test...👍
I know with the nylon 66 and nylon 6 blend I use, it can be annealed in an oven.
I’m keen to print ITB manifold for my car.
I will use a steel container and fine grain salt, to pack around the manifold.
A jig that holds the manifold submerged in the salt, wouldn’t go astray.
Gotta put a rpm-governed valve one your crossovers, or it will give you some weird power bands. Progressive opening would be better, but on/off like most mfgs do might be more simple to tune, akin to vtec crossover. I also think you need bigger crossover tubing. You are dealing with short times, and small pressure differentials, so any drag will radically harm effectiveness.
Holy actual shit. I need this asap
Great idea my guy, I wish you could look into one for the 3sge beams. I have a factory intake if I need one. Good luck
Dude this is awesome. I def subscribed from this video and gave you a very well deserved like 👍.
Smaller car channels are the real innovators, people like tj hunt just but expensive parts and get othrr people build it