It’s not just electric, petrol and diesel cars are too expensive to buy new! Too many manufacturers have adopted the “low volume, high margin” strategy
Government is there to blame. You can't sell a product below cost to make it "attractive". The only way to meet the government target is to make cars overall more expensive.
@@jonleong22 Yet China has much lower production costs and therefore more competitive pricing because they don’t have ludicrous net-zero taxes. £14k for a new car is reasonable.
yes, and because ICE cars had their last relative high peak in 2023 they will get more expensive soon, because their production volume is dropping. diesel cars will be the first that will die. volvo will already stop producing them this year.
Problem about EV depreciation is not the factual battery degradation over 5-10 years, it is the belief that batteries have a very short lifetime and degrade quickly. It will take time to fix up this belief with facts. We first need transparency on the battery health when buying a used EV. It needs to be testable and consultable in the OS of the car.
Additionally, consumers are weary of depreciation related to the advances in battery technology. What would happen to the value of your car if new battery tech doubled range and lowered costs of the batteries by 20-30%. While an outlier of an example; out neighbor has a Nissan leaf with a weak battery (40 miles of range), that battery cannot be replaced for less than $8,000 USD.
It's also about the specialist skill and cost needed to fix a battery fault if it is out of warranty or not covered by warranty. Ice have been around fir decades so have no similar worry when buying a used one
One way of doing this is if companys invest in reusing/ recycling used batteries. If they can make this scale up, batteries will become cheaper and battery lifetime and degradation (and of course price) won't be so scary
@@WillBeckerdon't talk shite, the prices are the same in Europe and America, it's the greedy car manufacturers that are only building to order, do you remember a time when a second hand car with 120,000 on the clock would sell for 15,000 to 18,000 pounds no, and no one wanted them, the dealer, would send them straight to auction, and as for new cars they have risen between, 12,000 and 20,000 pounds, every western country.
don't talk shite, the prices are the same in Europe and America, it's the greedy car manufacturers that are only building to order, do you remember a time when a second hand car with 120,000 on the clock would sell for 15,000 to 18,000 pounds no, and no one wanted them, the dealer, would send them straight to auction, and as for new cars they have risen between, 12,000 and 20,000 pounds, every western country
don't talk shite, the prices are the same in Europe and America, it's the greedy car manufacturers that are only building to order, do you remember a time when a second hand car with 120,000 on the clock would sell for 15,000 to 18,000 pounds no, and no one wanted them, the dealer, would send them straight to auction, and as for new cars they have risen between, 12,000 and 20,000 pounds, every western country
Prices have been crashing for more than a year. Picked up a Mercedes EQC pre reg for just 43k. 15 months ago 79k. Same for all of the other desirable marques. Only issue now if that if you do not have a home charger it makes no sense as public charging is mor expensive than petrol
Just £43k ...... ? The figure £43k should never have the word `just ` in front of it , way out of reach for the vast majority of ordinary people in this country .
@@Battismore-Bluenot meant to sound like it’s trivial. 43k is also a lot to me but relative to the original price it’s almost half price. Also its pcp so nobody is stumping up 43k
@@Aggie4life77 On what planet? Pick any used EV. What is it worth now compared to what some fool paid for it? Good luck, buddy. I have no interest in paying $$$$$ for a nightmare crematorium on wheels.
@@richardweyland116 Gas cars are FAR more likely to over-turn and blow up. This happens every day. If an EV does overheat, it fizzes slowly and you can get out long before it burns.
Nobody will want an old petrol car in the near future, EVs will keep their value. They don't need on-going expense and don't give your family cancer fumes.
Am I the only person who doesn't care about their vehicle's depreciation? I drive my vehicle until the wheels fall off. Then I fix it up and drive it for a few more years.
@@harrisr1018 How often does that happen? How many years do batteries last? If I buy a new Tesla now I probably won't have to worry about it for 10 years or more.
I love depreciation because I buy 3 to 5 year old cars and run them till they die, so I get a cheaper car... However I do look at running costs ie repair service insurance and tax, I don't do many miles so main costs will be insurance and possibly tax if I get a reliable car. I'd have a ev but for the cost of buying and insuring , the battery does not worry me too much, I figured I'd get a car with a big enough battery that even if it lost half it's capacity it would still do what I need.
I mean Jag's always had build quality problems but at least with the EV the battery which is the only real worry is still under warranty. So yes, that's reassuring.
They're that cheap second hand because no-one wants them. Simple. Those examples have sat there for months and the price keeps tumbling because they can't sell them.
I've had my Kia eNiro 3 years. It still has 4 years of warranty left to run. I had one minor fault at 1300 miles from new, which was a seatbelt warning sensor. This was rectified inside 30 minutes by the dealer. Since then, nothing. No repairs, just servicing at less than £70 a time. I just renewed my insurance 2 Months ago, which cost me £80 more than my petrol car. I don't mind that, because I'm saving around £2k a year by no longer having to use petrol. Which EV have you had to repair and insure? Something with only around 30 moving parts is a lot less likely to go wrong than something with thousands of moving parts.....no timing or fan belts, no ignition system, no exhaust, no clutch, no gearbox.....
Insurance is comparable with similar performance ICE cars. Repair cost i.e. wear and tear are also similar. Servicing is minimal, Tesla don't even have a service schedule. The first Service for my EV6 which is after 2 years is around £170.
And the shitty substandard batterys there using now with manufactures using much more seriously super cheaper minerals that all manufacturers are going to use very soon which don't last as long and hardy have much range the manufacturers arnt putting prices down and loseing money on the cars there just using cheaper and cheaper substandard materials to build them im never having them
when i bought my ev 3 years ago there was one or two chargers at each service station. there is now 6,12, 24 or even 54 at Hopwood m42. 80 at exeter a30. 😮
What this video doesn’t capture is how many people (like myself) have had an EV and decided it was too much hassle and gone back to a petrol or diesel.
I believe it all boils down to individual preference. As an electric vehicle owner, I recently visited a petrol station to refuel my lawnmower. However, the experience left much to be desired. The fuel tank was brimming with condensation, and unfortunately, my lawnmower refused to start. Moreover, waiting in line at the petrol station felt like an unnecessary hassle.
@@denism66 it was the hassle of having to plan any long journeys and not having that ability to just jump in the car and go. The range was shocking and anytime I pulled into a charging station it was either broken or there was already a queue. I’m not saying EV’s aren’t the future, but until the cars match the range of combustion engines and the infrastructure is in place to recharge as quickly as the pumps then I’ll be giving EV’s a miss
@@pato10111 isnt spending 45 minutes to charge a short ranged electric car is a hastle. How do you get around that? Im planning on getting an electric car
Before EVs became a thing, manufacturer's 'range' used to refer to their model line up (at least in the UK). That is what Rory is referring to here, and not the 'range a vehicle can travel'. Fundamentally, you are right, but I can see the source of confusion here.
Ive watched hundreds of videos featuring EVs... and almost ALL of them come to the same conclusion....the cars are great, the charging network is utterly horrendous. Chargers not working, chargers not accepting payment methods or certain cards, chargers running painfully slow, chargers slots all full and people having to wait up to an hour just to get on one if they're lucky... And as for the 'i charge at home' squad....good for you. I saw a video only last week that stated only 22% of British car users have access to driveway parking. And not everyone has the luxury of waiting over an hour just to 'fill up'. The cars are good (not great), but the infrastructure just doesn't exist. And nobody seems to be doing anything about that.
Exactly, nothing comes close to filling up with petrol in 5 minutes. Why would you swap 500 miles range for 200 and have the worry of where you will charge up. Makes no sense and people are saying no.
40% of UK housing stock have driveways and a bit more than that could charge off road. most out of town/city centre businesses have space for people to charge too - this massively helps those who cant charge at home. Most sold EV's (currently) are salary sacrifice for business use users aren't paying for the electricity for the most part - it's expensed.
Sounds good. I will wait until after the prices have nose dived. I will also wait until they can be fixed at reasonable cost by the standard garages; don't cost a bomb on insurance and there is fast charging available everywhere.
well, in the nicest way possible, you’ll probably be waiting until you’re 90! Insurance I find is no more than any other diesel or petrol, at least it was for me. Fast charging is also not needed for most people in every location unless you have no ability to charge at home or you do 30k miles or more every year!
I have just purchased a 10 month old VW ID5 with only 7k miles on the clock.. The purchase price was 40% below the original cost of just over 50k. It came with a 7 year battery warranty or 100k miles. So I think the prices are already starting to go down. My previous EV was a MK 1 Leaf and was 11 years old and still had an 90% charge when I sold it. I must admit, it only ever had 1 Chademo charge. It was always charged at home on a 7kw wall charger.
I had only done 21k miles and all of my journeys were local the majority of the time. All of my long distance journeys were done in my Disco. Now that the latest EV's do greater distances, I decided to sell both cars and replace it with the ID5.
My Renault Zoe has been two months at the dealership waiting to be repaired and now it has to be shipped somewhere else cause only a specialised engineer can put his hands on it. Don't buy electric right now. It's an early adopter niche where everything is a work in progress. I'm sure in 10 years time it will be much better. Right now it sucks.
Yeah, being one of the first adopters comes with downsides. I love my Peugeot e-208 but charging is very much 'little and often' while Zap-map is very much my friend, one that I never leave home without. While services are either manufacturer or Halfords. So not much of a choice. Expensive or questionable.
Car makers are about to hit a perfect storm, Main dealers do not want to take in second hand EVs as part exchange, reason they do not want them on the lot, they have to sell new EVs or face fines of £15,000 per car they miss the target, so by November/ December they will be discounting new EVs to reach the target, the more they discount the faster second hand prices will fall. Next year will be even worse because they have to sell more EVs than this year. It is a downward spiral how do you stop it when its all in free fall. Even Motability is pushing EVs ,the deposit on a Toyota Corolla touring has Doubled in 2 years now over £1200 (cost new car just over £30,000) The Toyota B4ZX (cost over £42,000 ) you can have for £174.
Surely the price of EV's is an irrelevance if the charging infrastructure isn't there, which in the UK right now it isn't. Notwithstanding the cost of public charging needs to be drastically reduced otherwise it's just not economically viable to justify having an EV unless you can charge it at home, which millions of car owners simply can't.
@@humphreybradley3060 Basically, no one that rents their residence, is on a vacation, that wants lower insurance rates, cheaper and quicker repairs, a vehicle that doesn’t plummet in value, that doesn’t take hours to fill up, or cares about the environment, wants one of those pieces of junk. Maybe you should look in the mirror to see who hasn't done their research?
@@Spideynw So no evidence then! I’ve driven EVs for 4 years (50k miles), no maintenance, no parts, 285 miles £6.50 ($8.50). Faster, quieter& less stress. The math(s) speak for itself!
Out of your £100 of petrol that you feed your ICE with: • £16.67 is VAT • £32.74 is fuel duty • £35.84 for the wholesaler • £9.71 is biofuel content • £3.92 to the retailer • £1.12 is delivery costs You say they're better but you seem to forget you are being ripped off!
@@bEEBO178who buys a V8 to balance the books? Driving a V8 is a life choice akin to spending thousands on a luxury holiday to the Maldives. Doesn't make financial sense but if youve got the disposable income why not.
I don't normally watch car videos but being from Autotrader it caught my eye. I am due to change my old freelancer and have started investigating a used EV but the insurance quotes have been an eye opener with some companies charging double the premium . I am now not sure as the cheaper quotes may just be to lock me in for future rises in cost.
No change on my insurance. But if you're moving from a 1.0l Fiesta to a car that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds, wouldn't you expect your premiums to go up? EV or not!
In Europe, with the small countries, range is not much of an issue, but in the US of A, anything less than 350 miles of REAL range, in all weather conditions, will not cut it. Also, the charging infrastructure is abysmal, to put it mildly. It is dictatorial to FORCE these evs on people. Whatever happened to "let the market decide"??
It's a bitter pill (for now) but their is a reason these mandates are being pushed. The world is rapidly going downhill environmentally as is and tossing fossils is part of the fix. I like Earth; all my stuff is here and as much as I'd love to sometimes their are no tickets off this rock. I'd rather it didn't get even worse. As no one is arguing that EVs are true peers to conventional vehicles -they aren't- (I say this an an EV driver) but early petrol cars weren't great either but they got better. A lot better. So will EVs. As they have been for years now.
The idea that because the US is a large country they need longer range makes no sense. By the way, Europeans can driver from one country to another! "A research study for the Bureau of Transportation Statistics focused on the number of daily trips taken in the United States. In 2021, 52% of all trips, including all modes of transportation, were less than three miles, with 28% of trips less than one mile. Just 2% of all trips were greater than 50 miles."
Where TF are you driving? 350 miles at 70mph is 8 hours of driving. Or four hours each way. Unless you are driving 200 miles in to the wilderness and 50 miles past the last charger, this is not an issue
@@andrewwaller5913 Ah, look the name up. Also look for Re-ThinkX. Some of the things you read will seem like nuts. But those things he has predicted, going back nearly two decades, have come to pass. Look for the future predictions and stay open minded.
I can't afford a new EV - possibly a used one. Problem is - no transparency on battery health or charging history - as when buying a used phone. Also, I live in a flat - charging is going to be at commercial rates from a street charging point. Lastly, range degradation due to temperature variations (weather) can seriously impact any planned journeys.
Not true. An EV's battery can be easily tested with an OBD, via the car's diagnostic socket. This can provide a print-out of the battery's state of health in percentage terms..... Temperature variations can make around 15 to 20% difference in range. Hardly "serious" for the vast majority of drivers, who drive less than 50 miles a day.....
A large proportion of the housing in Britain , alot of which don`t have drives . You can`t charge a car with a flex through your front window across the pavement , a big trip hazard . Having to rely on public charges makes them no cheaper than petrol or diesels
A recent RAC study found that around 60% of housing in Britain had either a drive or a dedicated parking place. It appears you have not heard of charge network subscriptions. My local charge network is priced at 38p to 48p per kwh, if you use one of the 3 subscription rates they offer. Non-subscribers will always pay more. Even charging at 48p per kwh will be cheaper than using petrol, as most EV's will achieve at least 3 to 3.5 miles per kw, and quite a bit more around town.
And to add to your facts. if you take those households without off-street parking they have a much lower percentage of car ownership than those that do. London, for example, has the lowest household car ownership percentage in the UK. @@Brian-om2hh
@@Brian-om2hh A 5 l/100 km car (Pretty much any non-SUV can hit this when driven efficiently) will use 0.28 liters of fuel to cover 3.5 miles, which would cost just under 48p if you're paying £1.70 a liter, so based on your figures, electric cars don't seem to be cheaper to run, especially given how much extra you pay up front to get them and how far you have to drive on gren electricity before you're polluting less overall than an IC car. Electric cars are better in stop-start driving (But if that's what you're driving in, walking, public transport and especially cycling are likely to be better options - where I live isn't particularly high density urban area and cycling is significantly quicker at peak times) while IC cars are much better for sustained cruising at motorway speed. Last week I covered a over 2000 km across Chunks of Spain and France and had to stop to refuel a total of twice - the ability to get 1000 km range in 5 minutes is especially handy when you're heading for the ferry home and running slightly late, and making the stops as short as possible. I didn't see car charging anywhere I stopped either, though some of the big motorway stops do have them based on the signs, but they're few and far between compared to normal petrol stations and given the relative ranges of the vehicles involved it needs to be the other way around for electric drivers to have as little worry about range as IC drivers.
Well, tbh i see battery EVs already getting handed their hats and coats. In our company we had 5 brand new electric Renault Kagoos. The Boss sold them the very first winter because of how unusable they were in the cold where we would drive for 15-20 minutes and park for 30 minutes. Barely managed to get back to our warehouse for recharging and hardly could complete any of our schedules for the day, despite all of the addresses being well inside HALF of the quoted range. When we had to park somewhere in the center of the city, all of the charging stations already had a car plugged into it and in the rare occasions when there was one actually free, it was either not working or the rate was absurd at €1.45/kW, so to charge the 30kWh battery it costs €43.5 to do less than 100km of driving!!! Oh yeah and leaving them parked for 10 days during the holidays only to come back to work and find out all of their batteries were flat as a pancake was basically the last straw. So instead of those got brand new Dacia Dokkers factory fitted with LPG and the running costs are 1/3rd of what they used to be on the "cheap to run" EVs. And it's a trend i've been noticing in my neighborhood as well - people are getting rid of the battery EVs and getting either a small turbo diesel or a hybrid vehicle. Battery EVs might work if you have cheap nuclear power. But when your normal rate is €0.38/kWh, it's much cheaper to run LPG. I just hope that manufacturer very soon would realize keeping the electricity in batteries and dragging them along is dumb and will refocus their attention entirely on HFC and governments would actually start updating the infrastructure for that, cause you still can use the existing petrol station to charge hydrogen.
EV sales have hit a wall in sales. Since only companies and people who have homes with a garage can really buy it. Most people live in flats + fast charger costs exceed diesel costs + despite evs having less reasons to break down statistically are unreliable + fast depreciation.
Why do you have to have a garage? I do have a garage, although my charger is bolted to the side of my house on my drive.... Depreciation isn't an issue if you lease, which is what most people who choose a new EV do.....
Great response. Made me think. What you say about charging spots and costs is indeed important factor. I think that does play an important role. About being unreliable I'm not so sure. Depends probably on brand. Maintenance can be cheaper for some.
So the amount of material needed to be mined by ICE machinery is between 4-8 times than that of ICE equivalent. This will never change! So any market manipulation will end badly?
Never change or improve - of course it will. Already the 2nd gen cars are less of impact than the Gen 1 cars. What will never change is the amount of (un-recyclable) fuel being used by cars - The average use is 17,0000 per ICE car 🤯
Really need to know information regarding battery refurbishment or replacement. You just don't know how well the previous owner looked after the battery unless you've owned it for a few months. By then it's too late!
Here in USA, EV sales have stalled. There is 2 years worth stock of the Mustang Mach-E. Dealer forecourts literally have 10,000’s of stock. GM and Ford have rowed back on production. Given the massive distances, EV’s were never going stack up. Tesla initially grabbed market share with their charge network and are now selling cars by permanent discounts and MSRP reductions; Model 3 prices have dropped by $15,000.
8:17 This is basically marketing slight of hand. It doesn't mean 100% of each battery is recycled/recovered. When Tesla says that they're recycling 100% of their batteries, it means that they are sending the batteries off to someone who's recycling them, recovering the material, and then who knows where that material is going. I know, you're shocked that Elon would ever deceive the public. It's kind of like when Audi says that they can send 100% of the torque to the each of the rear wheels, but it's really only 100% of the 50% in total engine torque. 😅
The struggle is convincing buyers to purchase a brand new EV, the crippling depreciation isn't consumer friendly. I think most folks will either lease, and then people will buy up the used leased ones. But the elephant in the room is, their warranties. Once over 8 years old or over 100,000 miles who will buy an EV with the financial risk of a replacement battery in their future.
@@Nickbaldeagle02 leasing is the best choice if you absolutely need an EV; personal I’ll never need an EV. We just don’t have the lifestyle or budget for such a thing.
@@animal355 I thought I didn't have the budget but then I realised that the repayments on £5000 loans every few years to buy some high mileage wreck were not much less expensive than the lease cost of a brand new BMW X1. So I leased one for 5 years. Then I bought it outright as I knew its history. Then I leased the wife a brand new Juke Tekna Hybrid.
@@Nickbaldeagle02 I don’t borrow money, I save up to purchase our cars and never by new. I like to have a disposable source of income that I can fully utilise at any point. I suppose I’m old fashioned that way. We try our best to avoid debt or leasing anything. But leasing can be a great way into a new vehicle and like you said you know it’s history and you have the option to buy the vehicle outright after the lease as ended if the residual value isn’t less than the purchase cost.
@@animal355Terrible financial decision to buy new. Numerous videos out here about whether it is cheaper to lease, PCP or cash buy, I suggest you watch one. Second hand buying cash is okay.
Problem is we've been spoilt with features and gadgets, that add to the cost. Heating, cooling massaging seats, massive touch screens everywhere, mood lighting, powered tailgate, adaptive suspension, laser headlights, adaptive cruise/lane assist, head up display, Apple/Android auto, the list is endless. If it isn't stacked with tech, no one is interested, especially the younger generation.
The younger generation will be very interested in cars if they had lower insurance, often as a result of less bespoke gadgets and horsepower that is only slightly more than necessary. Android Auto/Apple Car Play and heated seats aside, I'd argue that the gadgets are built and targeted for middle age generation that can actually afford new cars
You've hit the nail on the head. Imagine a brand new EV with all features of a first generation Fiesta. They'd be a third of the cost. Here in Thailand we have the NETA V, which is just that, and sells for £10K.
Get the ev’s simpler and cheaper for the people who go to work, go shopping and run around their towns and cities. A small minority ford rivers, climb over mountains and cross endless wastelands or deserts.
Out of your £100 of petrol that you feed your ICE with: • £16.67 is VAT • £32.74 is fuel duty • £35.84 for the wholesaler • £9.71 is biofuel content • £3.92 to the retailer • £1.12 is delivery costs You say they're better but you seem to forget you are being ripped off!
and they are less energy dense and hence heavier, one problem solved by another problem. petrol and diesel are many multiple times more energy dense than both batteries, problem solved.
@@stevezodiac491Out of your £100 of petrol/diesel that you feed your ICE with: • £16.67 is VAT • £32.74 is fuel duty • £35.84 for the wholesaler • £9.71 is biofuel content • £3.92 to the retailer • £1.12 is delivery costs You say they're better but you seem to forget you are being ripped off!
What worries me more about these cars besides price, range, etc is when there is a unfortunate accident most go up in flames and you can’t put them out. Can you imagine the carnage on a motorway for instance! Theres a long way to go before I get in one that’s for sure. 😮
The fires worry me the most. Also the weight of the cars , so heavy some crash barriers can’t contain them and difficult for recovery vehicle to tow you away if you breakdown. I won’t be buying one anytime soon.
An EV fire is without question more hazardous and harder to put out but it’s also a lot less likely to go on fire compared to an ICE car. Many modern ICE cars are not that much lighter than equivalent EVs really
At least it is easy for you guys. You have plenty of sunlight...in some areas more than 3000 hours per year...install solar power plants around the country and you will have plenty of free electricity.
I don’t know the details of the Australian court ruling, but to add to the strong opinions below, “Zero Emissions” can sometimes be termed “Zero NET Emissions”, whereby carbon credits are used in various ways to offset any actual emissions from the direct product/process/activity at issue.
RORY, they have already come down. brand new i5 BMW was 82k, they are now 67k if you shop round. KIA EV and Ionqi 5 were 56k, but dealers are selling them for 10k less now. I'm currently ordering an ionqi 5 which last year was £800 lease monthly, I've just done a 3 year lease at £380 for a 77kw.
No they didn’t. Lazy comment. My car has lost £250 in a year according to carwow and motorway. That’s a five year old car so I wouldn’t call that bombed
This is a U.K. channel and he gave real examples. On the Autotrader website there is a 1 year old 11000 mile Audi Q4 e-tron for £35000. The cheapest Porsche Taycan is £44000 and is labelled "higher price" (maybe due to the 70000 miles).
Those are doing horrible in sales for two reasons. Price and it’s still too easy for buyers to simple buy ICE cars as that’s what their use too and don’t understand electric cars enough. I was literally that person. A lot of people are like me. With that said, I did the homework and I’m switching to electric! Especially ow that the prices are down!
I'm sorry I'm a tiny bit (lmao a lot) ignorant about the North American market. Are you saying Ford makes the F-150 in an *electric or hybrid version?!* Please say I have misunderstood you, mate. The hugest truck I have ever seen in my life, the beast of beasts, with an EV powertrain? Lol I'm sorry if I got that wrong I just needed to check with you because... wtf. I would have guessed the typical F-150 owner wouldn't give a flying fuck about environmentally conscious anything?
Doesn't matter - on the development I live on we have had maybe 10 chargers fitted.... and now the 16 year old wiring is failing - at an increasing rate as more chargers are being added to the load.
Has anyone turned up at a charger site having spent hours more time than you planned (motorway accidents etc) only to find the chargers are faulty, huge cue etc and eventually needing to call a emergency breakdown service because your car died
So, if this is true, prepare to continue to lose thousands upon thousands in depreciation on your EV as they keep getting cheaper and cheaper to produce and sell.
The EV/green transition mass psychosis is akin to the 2008 real estate bubble. Just look at the Hertz/Tesla debacle and you'll get a taste of what's to come.
Charging infrastructure is crap; where there is charging infrastructure most people will pay almost as much for communal charging as they would for petrol or diesel but you can buy for £3000 (or less) a car that will drive 300 miles on a tank and take 3 minutes to refill and pay; cars are expensive and manufacturers are trying to shaft early adopters with inflated prices which creates an image of overpricing so people scoff at the idea of buying one and this will be a hard attitude to break down even when prices do come down; horror stories involving battery failures with manufacturers refusing warranty repairs for water ingress when the country is a rainy one makes people further tentative to adopt one; EVs munch through tyres due to their weight so the running cost difference isn't as wide as manufacturers purport; people are more than aware that taxation is going to rinse them soon so they're scared of holding the bag which is compounded by how insane insurance costs are for many EVs; repair costs and times are extremely high due to a lack of expertise - main dealers with £250+ hourly rates have people over a barrel because few indie garages have the time, space, or access to skilled workers, to repair EVs; the lack of skilled workers is further worsened because very few colleges or education institutions offer courses in EV repair - it's mostly still mechanical work for ICE cars; car companies insist on using existing platforms for their EVs instead of making bespoke platforms so battery space is at a premium and hurts range; why is a base spec i5 nearly £70k when a base spec diesel 5-series is £45k? Fuck off, BMW.
A base spec i5 40 is £67k, a base spec petrol 520 (BMW no longer sell diesels) is £51k, which has about 40% less power and the standard spec is lower. So actually the price difference is less than you think. The rest of your post assumes ICE cars never go wrong, and there are no ‘horror stories’ with DPF filters 🤣
People forget that, when the automotive industry was in its infancy, there was a fierce battle between cars with internal combustion engines, electric powered cars and steam powered cars. The ICE cars triumphed not because of government regulations, but because at that time they were the better option for most buyers. It was a fair market competition won by the buyer's choice. Nowadays, the government makes our choices, even if some choices, like this one for example, don't make any sense at all.
I don't have any technical training at all, so please forgive me, but am I crazy to wonder what will happen when millions and millions of people will plug their cars into the grid when they arrive home at six o'clock in the evening!? @@phuketexplorer
@@phuketexplorer how? hydrogen would of been the option if it was the better choice, its a new technology and it will get better, just like ICE cars did, over a century of ICE cars have been compared to electric cars and tech not older than 20 years and every year there is major improvements, not to mention the infrastructure that has been built over the century for ICE cars that electric cars have not had the time yet. ridiculous argument
Out of your £100 of petrol that you feed your ICE with: • £16.67 is VAT • £32.74 is fuel duty • £35.84 for the wholesaler • £9.71 is biofuel content • £3.92 to the retailer • £1.12 is delivery costs Who would keep paying that? Slave to the government and petro chemical companies and its still going up!
Why? How many miles does the average person do a day or even a week. Most ppl put £20/30 of fuel in at a time, that about 150-200 mile range and they manage fine.
I used to think that but the reality is nobody needs to do that amount of mileage in one sitting. There are thousands of drivers already using 200-250 mile EVs who are confident enough to know that 99% of the time, that’s all that’s necessary.
Absolutely spot on. This is the main problem. There is no range. You can commute a short distance in the week but a day out at the weekend is pointless because you won't get to the coast/forest/city and back on one charge. Just doesn't work. EVs need to be 400 miles range and charge in 10 minutes to compete with petrol and diesel cars. Plus they need to be way way cheaper.
@@cal_lywal You've never been on a day out across the country? BS. Ever been to the USA or Canada, huge distances involved. Its not popping to Tesco 6 miles away.
Electricity prices in general need to come down too, as the savings over petrol / diesel aren't that big, depending on miles per year. Especially if they cost more than £40k so you pay £390 a year car tax as well as insurance costs.....?
The problem is, it's the warranty and the battery replacement costs that people have suddenly cottoned onto. Taking your example of the Porsche Taycan for £45k. Once those batteries need to be replaced once the warranty runs out is going to cost the new owner £55k to replace and code it to the vehicle. For the original cost of £45k? That's simply not going to happen. They would have to give the Porsche Taycan away for FREE in the knowledge that the future cost of the cars batteries will cost them £55k. Or simply replace the batteries at the dealership and sell the car for £55k and a new 100k mile warranty again. EV's are nonsense. The only thing that I see moving forward is hybrids. Electric around the city and ICE for the long journeys.
Well the funny part about hybrids is.. sooner or later that battery pulling such a heavy vehicle will die. Then again thats gonna cost a ton. Else the user will be lugging around dead weight. makes no sense.
@@kashifgul5110 I totally agree, the only benefit to the hybrid is that it can still run with just the petrol engine if the battery is dead/low/or needs to be replaced. The cost of which is unknown at this point per manufacturer/model. The thing to remember from our own transport history is that we were using electric vehicles over 110 years ago. Trams, trolley buses etc were used. We can see old film footage of them being charged overnight on cables, even my milkman in the 70's used electric milk floats to deliver milk around towns and cities. So if they were so good, why did we get rid of them in favour of diesel and petrol vehicles? Simple, history is repeating itself. Batteries and charging take far too long and are not good for long journeys. They knew this over 100 years ago. Why are we trying to do the same thing again knowing what the outcome is and the need to go back to ICE based vehicles once again.
@@AdamForeman Well 2 years ago, I didnt agree with the mad direction the world was going in, with locking everything down and forcing everyone to get a medical intervention. Yet all of that fell apart. I would think this too shall fall apart give it time.
it could be that the spare part battery modules are getting cheaper as well. i think that porsche is one of the companies that really care a lot about their customers.
Spoiler alert. LFP stands for Lithium-Iron-Phosphate. Yes its energy per kg is not as good as Lithium-NMC but it has one huge advantage (besides allegedly being cheaper to make). LFP is intrinsically safer than other variants, so less likely to burst into flames after disturbances.
Yes but you're going from a 0.1% chance to a 0.01% chance. The only time we should be worried about that is airplanes or these people that buy cheap chinese scooters from dodgy sellers
I still understand how people that live in apartments or flats with no drive or a drive that’s not near anything to place a charger. If they are forced to charge up at petrol stations and motorway services. These are normally the highest prices to pay for charging electric cars and the government is ok with people with lower incomes to pay the most to charge their electric car? Where’s the logic in that. I watched 1 video where a guy had a Porsche taycan turbo. He’s £20k in negative equality and he wanted to swap it for a 911. Porsche said they wouldn’t take the taycan as a trade in as they have to many second hand taycans currently. So even Porsche don’t want their electric cars back 🤦🏼♂️
Why is the thumbnail making it seem like this is a bad thing? EVs are far too over priced and not a consideration for the majority of people in the UK. I hope they tank MASSIVELY!!
Who wants to be stranded with their family in an EV when they can't charge it? I want a zero emissions mandate on all govt officials, employees and agencies. Problem solved.
@@rutger1101Because he's not very clever and didn't pay attention to the 50 warnings that he was running out of charge. Probably shouldn't be driving really.
I have a Tesla and I`m completely satisfied with it.. no complaints at all and loving every minutes... Like I read elsewhere; I don`t have any plans to sell my car..so no concerns at all regarding depreciation.. In future I can only think of buying EVs once I can sell my other ICE car...
My problem with all of this is as an E-tron owner in America, the range is shit and we don’t have the infrastructure to meet demand. I took my car to charge today and the fkn station was down. Now I have to charge it from home which sucks. Great around DC, but you can’t road trip in a large country like the USA or Australia where I’m from.
people forget that with EVs its not just about the car and thats it? the infrastructure also needs to be built to support them long term/realistically...
Totally. In France, we have a very busy highway from Lyon to Cote d'Azur. Few superchargers along the way. Most important station in Montélimar has 7 chargers on the highway. It was so full last Summer, even with only 1.5% of EV in France, that people had to wait for about 45min in a queue before charging. Rest of the year, you will never see a queue, but as France forces all parents to take vacation at the same time, thanks to the annual closing of schools and daycare, we all end up on the road at the same time :( Infrastructure will never catch up with these peaks of trafic, making the road to vacation a bit more hell-ish.
@@davidhocevar8510 Your overthinking for the sake of wanting everything to stay the same. Do you really think Governments would put a hard date on the switch to EV if it thought the infrastructure wouldn’t be there in 2035?
@@Aggie4life77 But it was never going to be a hard "switch". It will be a gradual transition, taking 15+ years.... People will continue driving the existing pool of ICE cars, probably well past 2040. Although the availability of petrol by then, may not be what it is today....
Doesn't matter if the car price goes down if the battery price does not. As these evs go down in price the battery takes up even more of the total cost. It gets to the point where the cost of the battery replacement costs more than the car.
@@DavidPlayfair Stop looking at real-world data from real EVs on the road!! Kayden just want's to be mislead from people who tell him how to act and feel!! The mainstream media said EVs are bad, so that is how he will feel until they tell him something new to think 🤭
Would still rather have a diesel, ask Lee mac if he would buy another porsche taycan. Porsche wouldn't even take it back at a part exchange . 48,000 pounds to replace the batteries when they fail .lithium is not the future. Hydrogen is.
I find it odd you champion hydrogen as the future, when there are less than a dozen hydrogen filling points in the whole of the UK. Yet there are almost 60k public charging connections, and an estimated 400'000 privately owned EV chargers.
At my very nice, relatively-new, 200-unit U.S. apartment complex, they just installed 4 Level-2 chargers for general use. Four. With no plans to add more. This would not inspire any sensible person to buy an EV, whether they become more affordable or not.
If I wouldn't buy a new one I'm certainly not going to buy a second hand one. For my needs they are simply not good enough. Also my electricity bill is costly enough now let alone plugging in one of these energy guzzlers. Oh and you forgot to mention the insurance cost £££! Or the reliability?
@@chrishart8548you’re forgetting the higher initial cost of buying an electric v ICE equivalent car (sometimes significantly more), high depreciation of electrics, and when charging away from home at a service station the cost can be not that far from petrol.
Interesting you mention "energy guzzlers". A typical ICE car is around 30% efficient in the use of it's fuel. So, out of each £6 gallon of petrol you pay for, only around £2 worth is actually moving you along the road. The other £4 worth is being wasted as heat via friction..... My Kia EV costs me £80 a year more to insure than my petrol car. I consider that a fair trade off, given that I save around £2k a year by no longer having to buy petrol. Reliability? My eNiro has been fine. No breakdowns, nothing. Plus it still has a further 4 years of warranty to run. Something with only around 30 moving parts is probably going to be much less likely to go wrong than something with thousands of moving parts.
Where exactly are all these EV's going to charge? & until they can be charged in a few mins not 45 mins,it won't matter if their costs are cut in half,the charging network in the UK is a joke,lots broken,far too many apps & price variants & huge queues & then it's 45 mins to charge to 80%, The UK government will push back the EV dates again as its impossible to have that many on the road without the charging infrastructure and we are decades away from even being remotely close.
Welcome to 2015 headlines in the Sun newspaper. Is your statement coming from a position of recent ownership and experience or what you have heard from every other expert that also hasn't owned one?
That nosedive only really affects lease companies because of their accounting. Look, your second hand value will fall because of the fall in the new price. However your second hand price depending on milage, age and overall condition still remains a certain percentage X of the new price. So you can still get a new one for that lower new price times (100-X)%. So that is a lot less than when the new price was still unchanged.
Stelvio is a great car, 2.2D is a superb engine. They’re good spec from factory if you avoid the base spec cars. Retrofit Apple CarPlay, buy one with big belt service done. We are on our second after having had a few Macans, Stelvio is far better value. Macan is a slightly better car but Stelvio way cheaper.
There is a massive difference between cutting price due to innovation in production vs cutting price when nobody want to buy. Unfortunately it's the latter for EV.
no. the prices for new EVs are getting down. that means this is the new reference price for the used cars as well. and then, new cars are also more attractive and better as well. this together is enough to explain the depreciation.
Basically, no one that rents their residence, is on a vacation, that wants lower insurance rates, cheaper and quicker repairs, a vehicle that doesn’t plummet in value, that doesn’t take hours to fill up, or cares about the environment, wants one of those pieces of junk.
You need to check reality, soon residential areas have EV chargers on the parking lots and the cheaper insurance rates, and repairs will go to EVs and the hours of charging is seconds to plug it in and unplug it when you leave, just like charging your phone. And it is a lot cheaper to drive an EV than an ICE car
In my opinion it is absolutely not sustainable. The life span of cars are getting shorter and shorter, so manufacturers can sell more new cars. And with a huge influx of foreign brands coming to compete, the traditional European best selling car brands needs to fight for every penny of profit. In Denmark at my dealer, this month EVs have been 90% of all order intake. Furthermore almost all of these "sales" are short-term leasing, only 12 months. Reason being, if you want to pick 24 or 36 months, the monthly fee actually increases significantly, since it is uncertain what market value the cars will have by then. The used EV car market will have absolute bargains in the coming years. Actually it already does.
1) because auto trader always try to put a positive spin on EVs and 2) because it’s company cars where all the sales are. This is gonna become a real issue in a 3 years when the market is absolutely flooded up to the eyeballs in used EVs which NOONE wants
No, there's not. A lot of sources saying this now. Copper is literally a national security issue too. Plus, its not just the cars themselves, if people want more charging, endless roads need to be dug up and more cables installed. AI uses huge amounts of energy (set to get even worse) if people want self driving. It's utter madness when you really think about it.
Yes, there are. It is estimated there are around 3 to 4 times the amount of materials still in the ground, than will be needed over the next couple of decades. And try not to confuse the word "rare" as meaning scarce, when talking about the mineral elements required to build EV batteries. It is a technical/scientific term, and does not mean scarcity.......
@Brian-om2hh yes it's in the ground, but you need to do your research - what's the annual mine supply for copper, neodymium, gallium etc? For some elements needed its literally decades worth of total mine supply. And spoiler alert - you're not getting that out of the ground using electric plant...
Great video as always from Rory. I wouldn't mind seeing something talking about the problems people are facing insuring some electric vehicles - if insurers keep the rates sky-high it's likely to hinder adoption...
@@Aggie4life77 If they stay economically unviable to repair then insurance rates will stay sky-high, moreso since fewer insurance companies will be open to insuring them due to the increased financial risk they present.
It's a problem to get the price down mainly because, to a large extent, cars are sold by the Kilogram (or Pound). BEVs seem to be around 30% heavier than similar ICE cars. More metal, more plastic, more everything, 30% more in fact, and the raw materials and the processes to turn them into parts, logically add extra cost. You can't really cut any weight out of the battery or the range suffers and I would be doubtful about significant enough cost reduction. While Tesla's Gigacast process may reduce a little weight and simplify production I don't see that will enable the cost savings to make BEVs equally competitive with ICE vehicles. Many of the legacy manufacturers (depending on the region) have basically abandoned the small car ICE market is because it's virtually impossible to make a reasonable profit on them. Then, while Tesla is cutting prices, they are also sacrificing margin in an increasingly desperate attempt to maintain volume against a flood of even more desperate cheaper Chinese competition. Finally, where are all the cheap second-hand BEVs going to come from when surely many of the original owners who have been burnt so badly on resale will probably swear to never buy another EV.
What people don't mention is how simple the engines are, which cuts costs and gives long term reliability. Electric motor less than 100 parts. My Alfa V6 about 1600!
Tesla sold more EVs WW in 2023 than BYD. BYD did sell more evs in 4th qtr 2023. But dropped 40% in January 2024 Which again means BYD only had the first place for one qtr in 2023
EV prices are to set fall because they are 💩 I refuse to be bullied into buying one. Second hand prices have fallen through the floor. Dealers don’t want them on the forecourt.
Lol, except that they are taking so much market share that in a country like China, their are zombie factories for combustion engine cars. The only reason people did not buy them is because of price, but once they come close, people massively prefer electric cars like in China.
Prices are about to dive ???? They've already taken a dive. Dive any further and they'll have to start giving them away, and you know what, I still wouldn't want one.
The price will fall further, and you will soon want one for sure even if you only buy used cars! You probably have a smart phone, a flat panel TV and some streaming service and if you have a camera its Digital, but you do not have horses, wired phone or a CTR TV and you probably don't have audio tape, VHS or BETA max and hardly use your DVD or BLUE ray player anymore, things change to the better and cheaper all the time
Like many people in the uk . I have held off purchasing an EV . Because the battery prices and the life span of those batteries. I do like the specs of most . But i think 5 years i will reconsider.
Batteries are typically guaranteed for 8 years, some for life. And that presumes the capacity will drop by max 20% over that time. That's not an issue.
£55k - not really ! Firstly - All Taycan's have an 8 year battery warranty (doesn't mean they fail the day after this expires) Fuel powered cars only come with a 3 year warranty🤣 Secondly - Refurbished Taycan batteries cost just £8.5k ! You wouldn't replace a broken engine in an 8+ year old car with brand OEM engine, costing £10k+, so why would you do the dame with a battery (if indeed it actually ever needs replacing)
@SDK2006b All good and well providing you haven't bought a Porsche Taycan that is modified which will void the Porsche warranty...buying used might mean you don't know your Taycan has been modified...but don't worry Porsche will make sure you are the first to know your used Taycan was modified prior to your ownership therefore the warranty is void...thanks for letting me know 8 grand for a battery is the fall back position 😀
@@GiftorReid-xv7oo - the from new warranty expires after 8 years, so obviously you would only get a refurbished battery after this period. Then there is no warranty to lose! No doubt Porsche will sell you an extra warranty, like they do with their ICE cars. Those Porsche engines are expensive to replace as well 😊
@SDK2006b Good luck with choosing the right charging points because if you choose the wrong charging points Porsche will take that as your own negligence should you damage the battery...the warranty is void then...you won't know which is the wrong charging point until it's too late 😉
Who's gonna spend £45k on a taycan to only be able to do 50k miles before the battery warranty is up and hope they don't have to pay another £45k to replace it?
@@Speedking2022UK I was referring to what he said in the videos. He stated the taycan had almost 50k miles and the warrant expires in another 50k miles so where was I wrong?
@@marcm807 did you watch the video? That number I quoted is clearly what I was saying.the used taycan already has almost 50k miles on .another 50k later and the battery is out of warranty.
![Tesla Taxi FULL HEALTH CHECK: Is The Battery RUINED After 430,000 Miles? [Episode 4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/doAcNVuTnXU/mqdefault.jpg)
In Australia the courts ruled that EV's cannot be advertised as zero emissions because it is a flat out lie.
love to australia from italy
In which State?
@@phuketexplorer AUSTRALIA
Apply that logic to Petrol and Diesel and they BOTH get worse. It takes energy to drill for oil, refine and ship oil too.
We all knew it was a lie the whole time but the cultists continuously denied it and of course it doesn't fit the mainstream 'narrative'
It’s not just electric, petrol and diesel cars are too expensive to buy new! Too many manufacturers have adopted the “low volume, high margin” strategy
Government is there to blame. You can't sell a product below cost to make it "attractive". The only way to meet the government target is to make cars overall more expensive.
@@jonleong22 Yet China has much lower production costs and therefore more competitive pricing because they don’t have ludicrous net-zero taxes. £14k for a new car is reasonable.
China subsidise - a lot@@Bennary
yes, and because ICE cars had their last relative high peak in 2023 they will get more expensive soon, because their production volume is dropping.
diesel cars will be the first that will die. volvo will already stop producing them this year.
So true!, even second hand they are increadibly expensive in the Netherlands. Second hand ev and ice are about the same here.
Problem about EV depreciation is not the factual battery degradation over 5-10 years, it is the belief that batteries have a very short lifetime and degrade quickly. It will take time to fix up this belief with facts.
We first need transparency on the battery health when buying a used EV. It needs to be testable and consultable in the OS of the car.
Additionally, consumers are weary of depreciation related to the advances in battery technology. What would happen to the value of your car if new battery tech doubled range and lowered costs of the batteries by 20-30%. While an outlier of an example; out neighbor
has a Nissan leaf with a weak battery (40 miles of range), that battery cannot be replaced for less than $8,000 USD.
It's also about the specialist skill and cost needed to fix a battery fault if it is out of warranty or not covered by warranty. Ice have been around fir decades so have no similar worry when buying a used one
@@effortlesschoice true, and as the market is progressing very quickly, no protection against that, except by keeping your car longer.
One way of doing this is if companys invest in reusing/ recycling used batteries. If they can make this scale up, batteries will become cheaper and battery lifetime and degradation (and of course price) won't be so scary
Umm, as an owner of a used EV I question your source of information
It's not just EV's that are too expensive, it's the whole car market in general.
Welcome to Brexit-land. Real incomes have stalled. We voted to make things more expensive for ourselves. Americans have never had it so affordable.
Thanks to the WEF agenda 2030 and the hoax pandemic is what caused it
@@WillBeckerdon't talk shite, the prices are the same in Europe and America, it's the greedy car manufacturers that are only building to order, do you remember a time when a second hand car with 120,000 on the clock would sell for 15,000 to 18,000 pounds no, and no one wanted them, the dealer, would send them straight to auction, and as for new cars they have risen between, 12,000 and 20,000 pounds, every western country.
don't talk shite, the prices are the same in Europe and America, it's the greedy car manufacturers that are only building to order, do you remember a time when a second hand car with 120,000 on the clock would sell for 15,000 to 18,000 pounds no, and no one wanted them, the dealer, would send them straight to auction, and as for new cars they have risen between, 12,000 and 20,000 pounds, every western country
don't talk shite, the prices are the same in Europe and America, it's the greedy car manufacturers that are only building to order, do you remember a time when a second hand car with 120,000 on the clock would sell for 15,000 to 18,000 pounds no, and no one wanted them, the dealer, would send them straight to auction, and as for new cars they have risen between, 12,000 and 20,000 pounds, every western country
Prices have been crashing for more than a year. Picked up a Mercedes EQC pre reg for just 43k. 15 months ago 79k. Same for all of the other desirable marques. Only issue now if that if you do not have a home charger it makes no sense as public charging is mor expensive than petrol
44p per kwh for 7kw at Tesco. 62p per kwh for 50kw. Definitely cheaper than petrol.
car makers should also consider building vertical integration on their supply chain. That will help car makers reduce costs and control their supplies
@@trevorberridge6079 You'll just never be able to sell it.
Just £43k ...... ? The figure £43k should never have the word `just ` in front of it , way out of reach for the vast majority of ordinary people in this country .
@@Battismore-Bluenot meant to sound like it’s trivial. 43k is also a lot to me but relative to the original price it’s almost half price. Also its pcp so nobody is stumping up 43k
Depreciation quicker than their 0-60 times
That’s only an issue for the early adopters. Someone like me about
To buy the dip!
@@Aggie4life77 On what planet? Pick any used EV. What is it worth now compared to what some fool paid for it? Good luck, buddy. I have no interest in paying $$$$$ for a nightmare crematorium on wheels.
I've said the same thing.
@@richardweyland116 Gas cars are FAR more likely to over-turn and blow up. This happens every day. If an EV does overheat, it fizzes slowly and you can get out long before it burns.
Nobody will want an old petrol car in the near future, EVs will keep their value. They don't need on-going expense and don't give your family cancer fumes.
Am I the only person who doesn't care about their vehicle's depreciation? I drive my vehicle until the wheels fall off. Then I fix it up and drive it for a few more years.
Then look up battery replacement costs
@@harrisr1018 How often does that happen? How many years do batteries last? If I buy a new Tesla now I probably won't have to worry about it for 10 years or more.
@@harrisr1018Numerous studies are showing that batteries are good for 200,000 miles +. So, probably the least component to worry about.
I love depreciation because I buy 3 to 5 year old cars and run them till they die, so I get a cheaper car...
However I do look at running costs ie repair service insurance and tax,
I don't do many miles so main costs will be insurance and possibly tax if I get a reliable car.
I'd have a ev but for the cost of buying and insuring , the battery does not worry me too much, I figured I'd get a car with a big enough battery that even if it lost half it's capacity it would still do what I need.
@@harrisr1018a battery made today will last longer than most engines and transmissions. LFPs are expected to do 500.000+ kms.
“And that Jag is still covered by their manufacturer’s warranty” - that’s reassuring said no one, ever !
😂
The natural habitat of a jag/landrover is the back of a tow truck
😂
I mean Jag's always had build quality problems but at least with the EV the battery which is the only real worry is still under warranty. So yes, that's reassuring.
They're that cheap second hand because no-one wants them. Simple. Those examples have sat there for months and the price keeps tumbling because they can't sell them.
They can’t sell ANY of their cars, the cost of living is far too high and people can’t afford new / used cars.
Go grab yourself a bargain then. :)
It is not a bargain, if no one is buynig it@@DavidPlayfair
people are saying that for new EVs as well. and still EV sales numbers are climbing.
Exactly, not good for new sales either is it. Who's going to buy one new if they know there gonna lose half the value in 3 yrs
No mention of insurance and repair costs.
I've had my Kia eNiro 3 years. It still has 4 years of warranty left to run. I had one minor fault at 1300 miles from new, which was a seatbelt warning sensor. This was rectified inside 30 minutes by the dealer. Since then, nothing. No repairs, just servicing at less than £70 a time. I just renewed my insurance 2 Months ago, which cost me £80 more than my petrol car. I don't mind that, because I'm saving around £2k a year by no longer having to use petrol. Which EV have you had to repair and insure? Something with only around 30 moving parts is a lot less likely to go wrong than something with thousands of moving parts.....no timing or fan belts, no ignition system, no exhaust, no clutch, no gearbox.....
People say that but i have noticed that most problems in my ice car are electric related
This video is specifically about the upfront cost, not the total cost of ownership.
😂😂😂
Insurance is comparable with similar performance ICE cars. Repair cost i.e. wear and tear are also similar. Servicing is minimal, Tesla don't even have a service schedule. The first Service for my EV6 which is after 2 years is around £170.
Now, if only they could fix the shitty charging infrastructure..
And the shitty substandard batterys there using now with manufactures using much more seriously super cheaper minerals that all manufacturers are going to use very soon which don't last as long and hardy have much range the manufacturers arnt putting prices down and loseing money on the cars there just using cheaper and cheaper substandard materials to build them im never having them
Charge at home, anyone? No?
when i bought my ev 3 years ago there was one or two chargers at each service station. there is now 6,12, 24 or even 54 at Hopwood m42. 80 at exeter a30. 😮
Yes and pricing.
@@richardrichard9631 but according to the press they’re now worth nothing, go buy one!
What this video doesn’t capture is how many people (like myself) have had an EV and decided it was too much hassle and gone back to a petrol or diesel.
I believe it all boils down to individual preference. As an electric vehicle owner, I recently visited a petrol station to refuel my lawnmower. However, the experience left much to be desired. The fuel tank was brimming with condensation, and unfortunately, my lawnmower refused to start. Moreover, waiting in line at the petrol station felt like an unnecessary hassle.
Can you explain why you thought they were too much hassle?
@@denism66 it was the hassle of having to plan any long journeys and not having that ability to just jump in the car and go. The range was shocking and anytime I pulled into a charging station it was either broken or there was already a queue. I’m not saying EV’s aren’t the future, but until the cars match the range of combustion engines and the infrastructure is in place to recharge as quickly as the pumps then I’ll be giving EV’s a miss
@@pato10111 isnt spending 45 minutes to charge a short ranged electric car is a hastle. How do you get around that? Im planning on getting an electric car
@@Twongz_does_anything If you Install a home charger and charge it at night you'll get plenty of range that way.
ZEV Mandate does not say 22% of a manufacturers range has to be EV this year, it's 22% of their SALES
Yes, error
Before EVs became a thing, manufacturer's 'range' used to refer to their model line up (at least in the UK). That is what Rory is referring to here, and not the 'range a vehicle can travel'. Fundamentally, you are right, but I can see the source of confusion here.
It's completely clear (and understood) he's referring to their model line up @@SuperRacingBros Still nothing to do with the ZEV Mandate.
Loooool what are you on about @@SuperRacingBros, think you confused yourself reading what the commentor above wrote lol
Well spotted and correct.
Ive watched hundreds of videos featuring EVs... and almost ALL of them come to the same conclusion....the cars are great, the charging network is utterly horrendous. Chargers not working, chargers not accepting payment methods or certain cards, chargers running painfully slow, chargers slots all full and people having to wait up to an hour just to get on one if they're lucky...
And as for the 'i charge at home' squad....good for you. I saw a video only last week that stated only 22% of British car users have access to driveway parking. And not everyone has the luxury of waiting over an hour just to 'fill up'. The cars are good (not great), but the infrastructure just doesn't exist. And nobody seems to be doing anything about that.
Car Expert just did one with a Rivian in California...3 hour wait for a charger, and this was at 9pm.
Exactly, nothing comes close to filling up with petrol in 5 minutes. Why would you swap 500 miles range for 200 and have the worry of where you will charge up. Makes no sense and people are saying no.
true, still there's electricity everywhere can't be that hard to make charging infrastructure work eventually
40% of UK housing stock have driveways and a bit more than that could charge off road. most out of town/city centre businesses have space for people to charge too - this massively helps those who cant charge at home. Most sold EV's (currently) are salary sacrifice for business use users aren't paying for the electricity for the most part - it's expensed.
RAC say 65% in UK have or could have access to off-street parking.
Sounds good. I will wait until after the prices have nose dived. I will also wait until they can be fixed at reasonable cost by the standard garages; don't cost a bomb on insurance and there is fast charging available everywhere.
well, in the nicest way possible, you’ll probably be waiting until you’re 90! Insurance I find is no more than any other diesel or petrol, at least it was for me. Fast charging is also not needed for most people in every location unless you have no ability to charge at home or you do 30k miles or more every year!
@@mikeconnolly6845 'no ability to charge at home' that's a significant portion of the population.
@@CyrilSneer123 The vast majority I would hazard a guess, unless you are laying charging cables over the footpath.
Why not wait until they can fly?
@@CyrilSneer123I agree with you Mr raccoon hater. We don't all live in the burbs with a driveway.
I have just purchased a 10 month old VW ID5 with only 7k miles on the clock.. The purchase price was 40% below the original cost of just over 50k. It came with a 7 year battery warranty or 100k miles. So I think the prices are already starting to go down. My previous EV was a MK 1 Leaf and was 11 years old and still had an 90% charge when I sold it. I must admit, it only ever had 1 Chademo charge. It was always charged at home on a 7kw wall charger.
That is the ideal case scenario. It's been well over a year since I used a public charger...
You only used 10% of battery in 11 years that’s fantastic range
I had only done 21k miles and all of my journeys were local the majority of the time. All of my long distance journeys were done in my Disco. Now that the latest EV's do greater distances, I decided to sell both cars and replace it with the ID5.
and this is the problem, there no good for long trips and rep cars, I know first hand
I saw a BMW IX, 73 plate with hardly any miles reduced from £73k to £55k 😮😮😮......Unfortunately I haven't got £55k 😅😅😅.
If you’d bought it, you’d be about £30k worse off in 12 months so lucky escape 👍🏻
Fortunately (fixed it for you)
Wait a couple of years it'll be 5k
@@firstnamed1501 Woooow 😲
My Renault Zoe has been two months at the dealership waiting to be repaired and now it has to be shipped somewhere else cause only a specialised engineer can put his hands on it. Don't buy electric right now. It's an early adopter niche where everything is a work in progress. I'm sure in 10 years time it will be much better. Right now it sucks.
Yeah, being one of the first adopters comes with downsides. I love my Peugeot e-208 but charging is very much 'little and often' while Zap-map is very much my friend, one that I never leave home without. While services are either manufacturer or Halfords. So not much of a choice. Expensive or questionable.
Ah it’s well past the early adopter phase.
Apparently the Renault dealer is the actual problem.
Cleveley Mobile EV repair.
French and electric don't go well together 😂
Car makers are about to hit a perfect storm, Main dealers do not want to take in second hand EVs as part exchange, reason they do not want them on the lot, they have to sell new EVs or face fines of £15,000 per car they miss the target, so by November/ December they will be discounting new EVs to reach the target, the more they discount the faster second hand prices will fall. Next year will be even worse because they have to sell more EVs than this year. It is a downward spiral how do you stop it when its all in free fall.
Even Motability is pushing EVs ,the deposit on a Toyota Corolla touring has Doubled in 2 years now over £1200 (cost new car just over £30,000) The Toyota B4ZX (cost over £42,000 ) you can have for £174.
YES..WELL WHO THE HELL WANTS TO SIT 12 INCHES ABOVE AN UNEXPLODED BOMB !!!!!!!!!!???????????
My Tesla is 11 years old now and it has 220 miles of range every day. Best vehicle I’ve ever owned.
Was good to see you on The Apprentice.
Surely the price of EV's is an irrelevance if the charging infrastructure isn't there, which in the UK right now it isn't. Notwithstanding the cost of public charging needs to be drastically reduced otherwise it's just not economically viable to justify having an EV unless you can charge it at home, which millions of car owners simply can't.
Yeah, this is just another fanboy video. The EV market is basically dead.
@@Spideynwwow, bold words from someone who clearly hasn’t done any investigative research!
@@humphreybradley3060 Basically, no one that rents their residence, is on a vacation, that wants lower insurance rates, cheaper and quicker repairs, a vehicle that doesn’t plummet in value, that doesn’t take hours to fill up, or cares about the environment, wants one of those pieces of junk. Maybe you should look in the mirror to see who hasn't done their research?
@@Spideynw In China, 50% of all new car sales in 2024 will be EVs. The EU will follow. Pretty good for a ‘dead’ market.
@@Spideynw So no evidence then! I’ve driven EVs for 4 years (50k miles), no maintenance, no parts, 285 miles £6.50 ($8.50). Faster, quieter& less stress. The math(s) speak for itself!
And I’m in the market for a Mustang v8 after watching your review 🤣😂
Out of your £100 of petrol that you feed your ICE with:
• £16.67 is VAT
• £32.74 is fuel duty
• £35.84 for the wholesaler
• £9.71 is biofuel content
• £3.92 to the retailer
• £1.12 is delivery costs
You say they're better but you seem to forget you are being ripped off!
@@bEEBO178who buys a V8 to balance the books? Driving a V8 is a life choice akin to spending thousands on a luxury holiday to the Maldives. Doesn't make financial sense but if youve got the disposable income why not.
I don't normally watch car videos but being from Autotrader it caught my eye. I am due to change my old freelancer and have started investigating a used EV but the insurance quotes have been an eye opener with some companies charging double the premium . I am now not sure as the cheaper quotes may just be to lock me in for future rises in cost.
Probably depends on the brand. I bought i3 (ev) and my insurance costs actually dropped
No change on my insurance. But if you're moving from a 1.0l Fiesta to a car that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds, wouldn't you expect your premiums to go up? EV or not!
Prob due to the fire risks
@@Andrew.-.- Utter rubbish stop reading the Daily Mail.
In Europe, with the small countries, range is not much of an issue, but in the US of A, anything less than 350 miles of REAL range, in all weather conditions, will not cut it. Also, the charging infrastructure is abysmal, to put it mildly. It is dictatorial to FORCE these evs on people. Whatever happened to "let the market decide"??
It's a bitter pill (for now) but their is a reason these mandates are being pushed. The world is rapidly going downhill environmentally as is and tossing fossils is part of the fix. I like Earth; all my stuff is here and as much as I'd love to sometimes their are no tickets off this rock. I'd rather it didn't get even worse. As no one is arguing that EVs are true peers to conventional vehicles -they aren't- (I say this an an EV driver) but early petrol cars weren't great either but they got better. A lot better. So will EVs. As they have been for years now.
The idea that because the US is a large country they need longer range makes no sense. By the way, Europeans can driver from one country to another!
"A research study for the Bureau of Transportation Statistics focused on the number of daily trips taken in the United States. In 2021, 52% of all trips, including all modes of transportation, were less than three miles, with 28% of trips less than one mile. Just 2% of all trips were greater than 50 miles."
Where TF are you driving? 350 miles at 70mph is 8 hours of driving. Or four hours each way. Unless you are driving 200 miles in to the wilderness and 50 miles past the last charger, this is not an issue
Look at GBP vs other currencies. We're not exactly knocking it out the park.
Pretty much unchanged versus the US$ and Euro over the last year.
Unchanged Vs the euro for more like 15 years.
Martin, are you going to accept you are wrong?
Tony Seba was right
Who ?
Yes, he’s going to be correct again.
Who?
@@andrewwaller5913 use Google or RUclips?
@@andrewwaller5913 Ah, look the name up. Also look for Re-ThinkX. Some of the things you read will seem like nuts. But those things he has predicted, going back nearly two decades, have come to pass. Look for the future predictions and stay open minded.
I can't afford a new EV - possibly a used one.
Problem is - no transparency on battery health or charging history - as when buying a used phone.
Also, I live in a flat - charging is going to be at commercial rates from a street charging point.
Lastly, range degradation due to temperature variations (weather) can seriously impact any planned journeys.
Not true. An EV's battery can be easily tested with an OBD, via the car's diagnostic socket. This can provide a print-out of the battery's state of health in percentage terms..... Temperature variations can make around 15 to 20% difference in range. Hardly "serious" for the vast majority of drivers, who drive less than 50 miles a day.....
THE DREADFUL THINGS ARE UNEXPLODED BOMBS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
A large proportion of the housing in Britain , alot of which don`t have drives . You can`t charge a car with a flex through your front window across the pavement , a big trip hazard . Having to rely on public charges makes them no cheaper than petrol or diesels
A recent RAC study found that around 60% of housing in Britain had either a drive or a dedicated parking place. It appears you have not heard of charge network subscriptions. My local charge network is priced at 38p to 48p per kwh, if you use one of the 3 subscription rates they offer. Non-subscribers will always pay more. Even charging at 48p per kwh will be cheaper than using petrol, as most EV's will achieve at least 3 to 3.5 miles per kw, and quite a bit more around town.
And to add to your facts. if you take those households without off-street parking they have a much lower percentage of car ownership than those that do. London, for example, has the lowest household car ownership percentage in the UK. @@Brian-om2hh
@@Brian-om2hh A 5 l/100 km car (Pretty much any non-SUV can hit this when driven efficiently) will use 0.28 liters of fuel to cover 3.5 miles, which would cost just under 48p if you're paying £1.70 a liter, so based on your figures, electric cars don't seem to be cheaper to run, especially given how much extra you pay up front to get them and how far you have to drive on gren electricity before you're polluting less overall than an IC car. Electric cars are better in stop-start driving (But if that's what you're driving in, walking, public transport and especially cycling are likely to be better options - where I live isn't particularly high density urban area and cycling is significantly quicker at peak times) while IC cars are much better for sustained cruising at motorway speed.
Last week I covered a over 2000 km across Chunks of Spain and France and had to stop to refuel a total of twice - the ability to get 1000 km range in 5 minutes is especially handy when you're heading for the ferry home and running slightly late, and making the stops as short as possible. I didn't see car charging anywhere I stopped either, though some of the big motorway stops do have them based on the signs, but they're few and far between compared to normal petrol stations and given the relative ranges of the vehicles involved it needs to be the other way around for electric drivers to have as little worry about range as IC drivers.
Well, tbh i see battery EVs already getting handed their hats and coats. In our company we had 5 brand new electric Renault Kagoos. The Boss sold them the very first winter because of how unusable they were in the cold where we would drive for 15-20 minutes and park for 30 minutes. Barely managed to get back to our warehouse for recharging and hardly could complete any of our schedules for the day, despite all of the addresses being well inside HALF of the quoted range. When we had to park somewhere in the center of the city, all of the charging stations already had a car plugged into it and in the rare occasions when there was one actually free, it was either not working or the rate was absurd at €1.45/kW, so to charge the 30kWh battery it costs €43.5 to do less than 100km of driving!!! Oh yeah and leaving them parked for 10 days during the holidays only to come back to work and find out all of their batteries were flat as a pancake was basically the last straw. So instead of those got brand new Dacia Dokkers factory fitted with LPG and the running costs are 1/3rd of what they used to be on the "cheap to run" EVs. And it's a trend i've been noticing in my neighborhood as well - people are getting rid of the battery EVs and getting either a small turbo diesel or a hybrid vehicle. Battery EVs might work if you have cheap nuclear power. But when your normal rate is €0.38/kWh, it's much cheaper to run LPG. I just hope that manufacturer very soon would realize keeping the electricity in batteries and dragging them along is dumb and will refocus their attention entirely on HFC and governments would actually start updating the infrastructure for that, cause you still can use the existing petrol station to charge hydrogen.
Solar energy is entirely free and now very cheap to install!
@@phuketexplorer Very few people have land and live on houses my man!! What kind of bubble are you living on?
Why do ppl not understand all these simple truths and still want to buy shitty evs?... Beats me...
EV sales have hit a wall in sales. Since only companies and people who have homes with a garage can really buy it. Most people live in flats + fast charger costs exceed diesel costs + despite evs having less reasons to break down statistically are unreliable + fast depreciation.
Why do you have to have a garage? I do have a garage, although my charger is bolted to the side of my house on my drive.... Depreciation isn't an issue if you lease, which is what most people who choose a new EV do.....
Don't need a garage at all. You can charge in any weather, rain, snow whatever. It's easier if you have off road parking though, yes.
Great response. Made me think. What you say about charging spots and costs is indeed important factor. I think that does play an important role.
About being unreliable I'm not so sure. Depends probably on brand. Maintenance can be cheaper for some.
You used the word sales twice in one sentence. EV sales have hit a wall. Or sales of EV's have hit a wall. There. That's better.
Most people live in flats? Without even researching that claim I know it's BS.
So the amount of material needed to be mined by ICE machinery is between 4-8 times than that of ICE equivalent. This will never change! So any market manipulation will end badly?
a fucking scam. This some wizard of oz, man behind the curtain shit. No one wants an electric car.
It will change once battery recycling takes off. However, mining is currently cheaper than recycling as lithium is so abundant.
Never change or improve - of course it will. Already the 2nd gen cars are less of impact than the Gen 1 cars.
What will never change is the amount of (un-recyclable) fuel being used by cars - The average use is 17,0000 per ICE car 🤯
@@SDK2006b It's almost as if plants eat c02.... maybe i'm wrong. Didn't pass chemistry.
@@Bahamuttiamat Forget the C02 , it's the other tailpipe emissions and fumes i'm breathing in (and can taste) from the ICE engines I want rid of !
Really need to know information regarding battery refurbishment or replacement. You just don't know how well the previous owner looked after the battery unless you've owned it for a few months. By then it's too late!
If previous owner leased the car, battery care not important to them..... 100% every day then....
You could say the same about a car with an engine, unfortunately. With any car - its lifespan will rely heavily on how well it has been looked after.
@@cal_lywalNew engine still doesn’t typically cost as much as a new EV battery.
That,s why I will never buy a lease car be it EV, Petrol or Diesel
It's easy and simple enough to get the battery pack tested......
Here in USA, EV sales have stalled. There is 2 years worth stock of the Mustang Mach-E. Dealer forecourts literally have 10,000’s of stock. GM and Ford have rowed back on production. Given the massive distances, EV’s were never going stack up. Tesla initially grabbed market share with their charge network and are now selling cars by permanent discounts and MSRP reductions; Model 3 prices have dropped by $15,000.
8:17 This is basically marketing slight of hand. It doesn't mean 100% of each battery is recycled/recovered. When Tesla says that they're recycling 100% of their batteries, it means that they are sending the batteries off to someone who's recycling them, recovering the material, and then who knows where that material is going. I know, you're shocked that Elon would ever deceive the public. It's kind of like when Audi says that they can send 100% of the torque to the each of the rear wheels, but it's really only 100% of the 50% in total engine torque. 😅
Total nonsense and very bad maths to boot.
JB Straubel
Former chief technology officer of Tesla Motors.
Runs a battery recycle company that is expanding globally.
It's sleight of hand, not slight.
@@Nickbaldeagle02 you’re reight.
The struggle is convincing buyers to purchase a brand new EV, the crippling depreciation isn't consumer friendly. I think most folks will either lease, and then people will buy up the used leased ones. But the elephant in the room is, their warranties. Once over 8 years old or over 100,000 miles who will buy an EV with the financial risk of a replacement battery in their future.
Don't purchase. Lease.
@@Nickbaldeagle02 leasing is the best choice if you absolutely need an EV; personal I’ll never need an EV. We just don’t have the lifestyle or budget for such a thing.
@@animal355 I thought I didn't have the budget but then I realised that the repayments on £5000 loans every few years to buy some high mileage wreck were not much less expensive than the lease cost of a brand new BMW X1. So I leased one for 5 years. Then I bought it outright as I knew its history. Then I leased the wife a brand new Juke Tekna Hybrid.
@@Nickbaldeagle02 I don’t borrow money, I save up to purchase our cars and never by new. I like to have a disposable source of income that I can fully utilise at any point. I suppose I’m old fashioned that way. We try our best to avoid debt or leasing anything. But leasing can be a great way into a new vehicle and like you said you know it’s history and you have the option to buy the vehicle outright after the lease as ended if the residual value isn’t less than the purchase cost.
@@animal355Terrible financial decision to buy new. Numerous videos out here about whether it is cheaper to lease, PCP or cash buy, I suggest you watch one. Second hand buying cash is okay.
Tycan battery cost £55000 under warranty, gearbox £35000. Porsche cannot get rid of them. Enjoy your Tycan
Well if its under warranty the customer won't be paying it will they 😂
Problem is we've been spoilt with features and gadgets, that add to the cost. Heating, cooling massaging seats, massive touch screens everywhere, mood lighting, powered tailgate, adaptive suspension, laser headlights, adaptive cruise/lane assist, head up display, Apple/Android auto, the list is endless. If it isn't stacked with tech, no one is interested, especially the younger generation.
The younger generation will be very interested in cars if they had lower insurance, often as a result of less bespoke gadgets and horsepower that is only slightly more than necessary. Android Auto/Apple Car Play and heated seats aside, I'd argue that the gadgets are built and targeted for middle age generation that can actually afford new cars
You've hit the nail on the head. Imagine a brand new EV with all features of a first generation Fiesta. They'd be a third of the cost. Here in Thailand we have the NETA V, which is just that, and sells for £10K.
@@serz1885 Spot on!
Exactly, where is the Fiesta sized EV? Teslas are all ugly huge blobs made for big Americans! Where is the normal EV?
Get the ev’s simpler and cheaper for the people who go to work, go shopping and run around their towns and cities. A small minority ford rivers, climb over mountains and cross endless wastelands or deserts.
If affordable means, smallest, tiniest battery, slowest charging then no thank you! I'm sticking with my diesel!
If they become more affordable the manufacturers will go bust. Sounds like a Win Win.
Out of your £100 of petrol that you feed your ICE with:
• £16.67 is VAT
• £32.74 is fuel duty
• £35.84 for the wholesaler
• £9.71 is biofuel content
• £3.92 to the retailer
• £1.12 is delivery costs
You say they're better but you seem to forget you are being ripped off!
Also, LFP batteries don’t use cobalt. Another argument settled. They use iron or basically rust.
and they are less energy dense and hence heavier, one problem solved by another problem. petrol and diesel are many multiple times more energy dense than both batteries, problem solved.
@@stevezodiac491 ok lol. How about a horse, cart and a small paddock of grass!? Holy shit! We’ve solved all the problems!
@@stevezodiac491Out of your £100 of petrol/diesel that you feed your ICE with:
• £16.67 is VAT
• £32.74 is fuel duty
• £35.84 for the wholesaler
• £9.71 is biofuel content
• £3.92 to the retailer
• £1.12 is delivery costs
You say they're better but you seem to forget you are being ripped off!
What worries me more about these cars besides price, range, etc is when there is a unfortunate accident most go up in flames and you can’t put them out. Can you imagine the carnage on a motorway for instance! Theres a long way to go before I get in one that’s for sure. 😮
So same as it is now then
The fires worry me the most. Also the weight of the cars , so heavy some crash barriers can’t contain them and difficult for recovery vehicle to tow you away if you breakdown. I won’t be buying one anytime soon.
An EV fire is without question more hazardous and harder to put out but it’s also a lot less likely to go on fire compared to an ICE car.
Many modern ICE cars are not that much lighter than equivalent EVs really
ok u feel safer riding on 60 liters of explozive fuel?
We have a challenge of power outages in South Africa, so we don't EV's can be an investment 🥺
At least it is easy for you guys. You have plenty of sunlight...in some areas more than 3000 hours per year...install solar power plants around the country and you will have plenty of free electricity.
Same in Ghana. It's even getting worse and more expensive.
I think we need to normalise going off the grid in SA. Once I’ve got solar at home, I’ll consider the volvo ex30 for the school run.
Not if you have a solar system
@@ernestmahlangu6218 how many people can afford it?
I don’t know the details of the Australian court ruling, but to add to the strong opinions below, “Zero Emissions” can sometimes be termed “Zero NET Emissions”, whereby carbon credits are used in various ways to offset any actual emissions from the direct product/process/activity at issue.
RORY, they have already come down. brand new i5 BMW was 82k, they are now 67k if you shop round. KIA EV and Ionqi 5 were 56k, but dealers are selling them for 10k less now. I'm currently ordering an ionqi 5 which last year was £800 lease monthly, I've just done a 3 year lease at £380 for a 77kw.
the prices are coming down cause of many unsold cars here, maybe same for you.
Wow that's a decent price for leasing ionqi 5.. Who you getting this through?
Bit late to the party with this observation im afraid. Prices, especially used car price bombed about 12 months ago.
What country? Here in the US, used car priced are still insanely high since covid.
No they didn’t. Lazy comment. My car has lost £250 in a year according to carwow and motorway. That’s a five year old car so I wouldn’t call that bombed
This is a U.K. channel and he gave real examples. On the Autotrader website there is a 1 year old 11000 mile Audi Q4 e-tron for £35000. The cheapest Porsche Taycan is £44000 and is labelled "higher price" (maybe due to the 70000 miles).
Word to the 1 million Play button.. Congrats 👏
Subscribed day 1
here in North America the F-150 Lightning and Mach E are dropping MSRP
They are doing Horrible with sales
Those are doing horrible in sales for two reasons. Price and it’s still too easy for buyers to simple buy ICE cars as that’s what their use too and don’t understand electric cars enough. I was literally that person. A lot of people are like me. With that said, I did the homework and I’m switching to electric! Especially ow that the prices are down!
Another reason is the infastructure is miles worse in the USA than in the UK and also realiabilty in colder climates.
Petrol is so cheap in the USA compared to most countries why would you want an EV. A big V6 or V8 is just fine, especially for trucks.
I'm sorry I'm a tiny bit (lmao a lot) ignorant about the North American market. Are you saying Ford makes the F-150 in an *electric or hybrid version?!*
Please say I have misunderstood you, mate. The hugest truck I have ever seen in my life, the beast of beasts, with an EV powertrain? Lol I'm sorry if I got that wrong I just needed to check with you because... wtf. I would have guessed the typical F-150 owner wouldn't give a flying fuck about environmentally conscious anything?
The more you produce cost are less. Are they over producing to keep costs down? Not particularly green.
Doesn't matter - on the development I live on we have had maybe 10 chargers fitted.... and now the 16 year old wiring is failing - at an increasing rate as more chargers are being added to the load.
Has anyone turned up at a charger site having spent hours more time than you planned (motorway accidents etc) only to find the chargers are faulty, huge cue etc and eventually needing to call a emergency breakdown service because your car died
Queue. A cue is a snooker or pool instrument.
No
Yup
No
No
So, if this is true, prepare to continue to lose thousands upon thousands in depreciation on your EV as they keep getting cheaper and cheaper to produce and sell.
The EV/green transition mass psychosis is akin to the 2008 real estate bubble. Just look at the Hertz/Tesla debacle and you'll get a taste of what's to come.
Charging infrastructure is crap; where there is charging infrastructure most people will pay almost as much for communal charging as they would for petrol or diesel but you can buy for £3000 (or less) a car that will drive 300 miles on a tank and take 3 minutes to refill and pay; cars are expensive and manufacturers are trying to shaft early adopters with inflated prices which creates an image of overpricing so people scoff at the idea of buying one and this will be a hard attitude to break down even when prices do come down; horror stories involving battery failures with manufacturers refusing warranty repairs for water ingress when the country is a rainy one makes people further tentative to adopt one; EVs munch through tyres due to their weight so the running cost difference isn't as wide as manufacturers purport; people are more than aware that taxation is going to rinse them soon so they're scared of holding the bag which is compounded by how insane insurance costs are for many EVs; repair costs and times are extremely high due to a lack of expertise - main dealers with £250+ hourly rates have people over a barrel because few indie garages have the time, space, or access to skilled workers, to repair EVs; the lack of skilled workers is further worsened because very few colleges or education institutions offer courses in EV repair - it's mostly still mechanical work for ICE cars; car companies insist on using existing platforms for their EVs instead of making bespoke platforms so battery space is at a premium and hurts range; why is a base spec i5 nearly £70k when a base spec diesel 5-series is £45k? Fuck off, BMW.
A base spec i5 40 is £67k, a base spec petrol 520 (BMW no longer sell diesels) is £51k, which has about 40% less power and the standard spec is lower. So actually the price difference is less than you think.
The rest of your post assumes ICE cars never go wrong, and there are no ‘horror stories’ with DPF filters 🤣
@@SDK2006b😂 what are those horror stories with DPFfilters?
>> Charging infrastructure is crap... very much depends where you live.
People forget that, when the automotive industry was in its infancy, there was a fierce battle between cars with internal combustion engines, electric powered cars and steam powered cars. The ICE cars triumphed not because of government regulations, but because at that time they were the better option for most buyers. It was a fair market competition won by the buyer's choice. Nowadays, the government makes our choices, even if some choices, like this one for example, don't make any sense at all.
Hydrogen makes the most sense, but politically and financially it's not. End of!
I don't have any technical training at all, so please forgive me, but am I crazy to wonder what will happen when millions and millions of people will plug their cars into the grid when they arrive home at six o'clock in the evening!? @@phuketexplorer
@@phuketexplorer how? hydrogen would of been the option if it was the better choice, its a new technology and it will get better, just like ICE cars did, over a century of ICE cars have been compared to electric cars and tech not older than 20 years and every year there is major improvements, not to mention the infrastructure that has been built over the century for ICE cars that electric cars have not had the time yet. ridiculous argument
Losing 80,000 in 4 years on a porsche taycan who would buy an electric car in the first place 😮
You won't lose a single penny if you lease it, which s what most would do.....
Out of your £100 of petrol that you feed your ICE with:
• £16.67 is VAT
• £32.74 is fuel duty
• £35.84 for the wholesaler
• £9.71 is biofuel content
• £3.92 to the retailer
• £1.12 is delivery costs
Who would keep paying that? Slave to the government and petro chemical companies and its still going up!
Need to improve range to at least 400 -500 miles per charge to gain buyers confidence. Along with charging infrastructure and lower prices.
Why? How many miles does the average person do a day or even a week. Most ppl put £20/30 of fuel in at a time, that about 150-200 mile range and they manage fine.
I used to think that but the reality is nobody needs to do that amount of mileage in one sitting. There are thousands of drivers already using 200-250 mile EVs who are confident enough to know that 99% of the time, that’s all that’s necessary.
Absolutely spot on. This is the main problem. There is no range. You can commute a short distance in the week but a day out at the weekend is pointless because you won't get to the coast/forest/city and back on one charge. Just doesn't work. EVs need to be 400 miles range and charge in 10 minutes to compete with petrol and diesel cars. Plus they need to be way way cheaper.
@@cal_lywal You've never been on a day out across the country? BS. Ever been to the USA or Canada, huge distances involved. Its not popping to Tesco 6 miles away.
Electricity prices in general need to come down too, as the savings over petrol / diesel aren't that big, depending on miles per year. Especially if they cost more than £40k so you pay £390 a year car tax as well as insurance costs.....?
The problem is, it's the warranty and the battery replacement costs that people have suddenly cottoned onto. Taking your example of the Porsche Taycan for £45k. Once those batteries need to be replaced once the warranty runs out is going to cost the new owner £55k to replace and code it to the vehicle. For the original cost of £45k? That's simply not going to happen. They would have to give the Porsche Taycan away for FREE in the knowledge that the future cost of the cars batteries will cost them £55k. Or simply replace the batteries at the dealership and sell the car for £55k and a new 100k mile warranty again. EV's are nonsense. The only thing that I see moving forward is hybrids. Electric around the city and ICE for the long journeys.
Well the funny part about hybrids is.. sooner or later that battery pulling such a heavy vehicle will die. Then again thats gonna cost a ton. Else the user will be lugging around dead weight. makes no sense.
@@kashifgul5110 I totally agree, the only benefit to the hybrid is that it can still run with just the petrol engine if the battery is dead/low/or needs to be replaced. The cost of which is unknown at this point per manufacturer/model. The thing to remember from our own transport history is that we were using electric vehicles over 110 years ago. Trams, trolley buses etc were used. We can see old film footage of them being charged overnight on cables, even my milkman in the 70's used electric milk floats to deliver milk around towns and cities. So if they were so good, why did we get rid of them in favour of diesel and petrol vehicles? Simple, history is repeating itself. Batteries and charging take far too long and are not good for long journeys. They knew this over 100 years ago. Why are we trying to do the same thing again knowing what the outcome is and the need to go back to ICE based vehicles once again.
@@AdamForeman Well 2 years ago, I didnt agree with the mad direction the world was going in, with locking everything down and forcing everyone to get a medical intervention.
Yet all of that fell apart. I would think this too shall fall apart give it time.
it could be that the spare part battery modules are getting cheaper as well. i think that porsche is one of the companies that really care a lot about their customers.
Spoiler alert. LFP stands for Lithium-Iron-Phosphate. Yes its energy per kg is not as good as Lithium-NMC but it has one huge advantage (besides allegedly being cheaper to make). LFP is intrinsically safer than other variants, so less likely to burst into flames after disturbances.
Yes but you're going from a 0.1% chance to a 0.01% chance. The only time we should be worried about that is airplanes or these people that buy cheap chinese scooters from dodgy sellers
I still understand how people that live in apartments or flats with no drive or a drive that’s not near anything to place a charger. If they are forced to charge up at petrol stations and motorway services. These are normally the highest prices to pay for charging electric cars and the government is ok with people with lower incomes to pay the most to charge their electric car? Where’s the logic in that. I watched 1 video where a guy had a Porsche taycan turbo. He’s £20k in negative equality and he wanted to swap it for a 911. Porsche said they wouldn’t take the taycan as a trade in as they have to many second hand taycans currently. So even Porsche don’t want their electric cars back 🤦🏼♂️
Congrats on the well deserved Gold Pay button!!!
Why is the thumbnail making it seem like this is a bad thing? EVs are far too over priced and not a consideration for the majority of people in the UK. I hope they tank MASSIVELY!!
MG4 is literally 5 grand cheaper than a Toyota Corolla. It's not that EVs are overpriced, it's the government taxing all new cars into oblivion
@@tedarcher9120 Who wants and MG? 😂
They are not overpriced. They are much more expensive to make. Even at these prices the car companies lose thousands on every sell
@@brunorivademar5356 In that case the technology is not mature enough for mainstream sales. So overpriced.
They already are tanking. Most EV owners are in negative equity but won't admit it. They bang on about how great it is 😂
Who wants to be stranded with their family in an EV when they can't charge it? I want a zero emissions mandate on all govt officials, employees and agencies. Problem solved.
I bet you the decision makers will never have your issue. They don't care about us
Me. I love my family.
Why wouldn't you be able to charge it?
@@rutger1101Because he's not very clever and didn't pay attention to the 50 warnings that he was running out of charge.
Probably shouldn't be driving really.
That was a non-sequeter
I have a Tesla and I`m completely satisfied with it.. no complaints at all and loving every minutes... Like I read elsewhere; I don`t have any plans to sell my car..so no concerns at all regarding depreciation.. In future I can only think of buying EVs once I can sell my other ICE car...
My problem with all of this is as an E-tron owner in America, the range is shit and we don’t have the infrastructure to meet demand. I took my car to charge today and the fkn station was down. Now I have to charge it from home which sucks. Great around DC, but you can’t road trip in a large country like the USA or Australia where I’m from.
people forget that with EVs its not just about the car and thats it? the infrastructure also needs to be built to support them long term/realistically...
Totally. In France, we have a very busy highway from Lyon to Cote d'Azur. Few superchargers along the way. Most important station in Montélimar has 7 chargers on the highway. It was so full last Summer, even with only 1.5% of EV in France, that people had to wait for about 45min in a queue before charging.
Rest of the year, you will never see a queue, but as France forces all parents to take vacation at the same time, thanks to the annual closing of schools and daycare, we all end up on the road at the same time :( Infrastructure will never catch up with these peaks of trafic, making the road to vacation a bit more hell-ish.
Depends on the country.
Infrastructure cannot be build fast, beacuse there just is not enough of resources on the entire planet, with speed of mining now...
@@davidhocevar8510 Your overthinking for the sake of wanting everything to stay the same. Do you really think Governments would put a hard date on the switch to EV if it thought the infrastructure wouldn’t be there in 2035?
@@Aggie4life77 But it was never going to be a hard "switch". It will be a gradual transition, taking 15+ years.... People will continue driving the existing pool of ICE cars, probably well past 2040. Although the availability of petrol by then, may not be what it is today....
About?!! Already have. Second hand anyway!
proof?
@@uamade Look at two year old cars like the Kia Niro where both EV and Hybrid are available and if anything the EVs are cheaper.
It will be due to high supply and low demand.
Wow! 1M subs. Hopefully Rory has some equity in AutoTrader because he's definitely a big part of its success.
how much does the home charging kit cost?
The discount of 10% is nowhere near enough to make BEVs affordable. Maybe 60% would make more sense.
I still wouldn’t buy one…😂
60%? Are you crazy?
Doesn't matter if the car price goes down if the battery price does not. As these evs go down in price the battery takes up even more of the total cost. It gets to the point where the cost of the battery replacement costs more than the car.
Wright's Law???
The battery will most likely outlive the car. :)
@@DavidPlayfair Stop looking at real-world data from real EVs on the road!! Kayden just want's to be mislead from people who tell him how to act and feel!! The mainstream media said EVs are bad, so that is how he will feel until they tell him something new to think 🤭
@@DavidPlayfair not if it gets road damage. Ioniq 5 owner was quoted $60k+ to have it replaced.
It is not the price of the car without battery that goes down, it is the price of the battery
Would still rather have a diesel, ask Lee mac if he would buy another porsche taycan. Porsche wouldn't even take it back at a part exchange . 48,000 pounds to replace the batteries when they fail .lithium is not the future. Hydrogen is.
Hydrogen will cost you more than a car in a year. You could just buy a cheap battery ev and replace the battery every year and save money
If
So have you bought a hydrogen car? If not, why not?
I find it odd you champion hydrogen as the future, when there are less than a dozen hydrogen filling points in the whole of the UK. Yet there are almost 60k public charging connections, and an estimated 400'000 privately owned EV chargers.
At my very nice, relatively-new, 200-unit U.S. apartment complex, they just installed 4 Level-2 chargers for general use. Four. With no plans to add more. This would not inspire any sensible person to buy an EV, whether they become more affordable or not.
Model 3 loses 50% in depreciation in 2 years. Beats the Maserati quattroporte as the fastest depreciating car by a year!
Depreciation isn't a worry if you lease, which is what most people who go for a new EV do.....
If I wouldn't buy a new one I'm certainly not going to buy a second hand one. For my needs they are simply not good enough. Also my electricity bill is costly enough now let alone plugging in one of these energy guzzlers. Oh and you forgot to mention the insurance cost £££! Or the reliability?
Still cheaper than petrol or diesel even if it does go on the electric bill. £5 charging at home gets way further than ice fuel.
A charge can literally cost all of £3-£5. Lots of it comes down to your tariff.
@@cal_lywal 7.5p kwh when most EV get 4.4 miles / kW means 75p could get you 44 miles
@@chrishart8548you’re forgetting the higher initial cost of buying an electric v ICE equivalent car (sometimes significantly more), high depreciation of electrics, and when charging away from home at a service station the cost can be not that far from petrol.
Interesting you mention "energy guzzlers". A typical ICE car is around 30% efficient in the use of it's fuel. So, out of each £6 gallon of petrol you pay for, only around £2 worth is actually moving you along the road. The other £4 worth is being wasted as heat via friction..... My Kia EV costs me £80 a year more to insure than my petrol car. I consider that a fair trade off, given that I save around £2k a year by no longer having to buy petrol. Reliability? My eNiro has been fine. No breakdowns, nothing. Plus it still has a further 4 years of warranty to run. Something with only around 30 moving parts is probably going to be much less likely to go wrong than something with thousands of moving parts.
Where exactly are all these EV's going to charge? & until they can be charged in a few mins not 45 mins,it won't matter if their costs are cut in half,the charging network in the UK is a joke,lots broken,far too many apps & price variants & huge queues & then it's 45 mins to charge to 80%, The UK government will push back the EV dates again as its impossible to have that many on the road without the charging infrastructure and we are decades away from even being remotely close.
You know you have electricity at home right?
Welcome to 2015 headlines in the Sun newspaper. Is your statement coming from a position of recent ownership and experience or what you have heard from every other expert that also hasn't owned one?
@@tedarcher9120 Yes, but a lot of people have to park in the street, or have a communal car park far away from the power supply.
@tedarcher9120 what a silly, myopic comment.
@@eric-wb7gj people are not stupid. If you don't have a home charger, just buy a hybrid. Many people do tho. And community car parks also have power.
That nosedive only really affects lease companies because of their accounting.
Look, your second hand value will fall because of the fall in the new price.
However your second hand price depending on milage, age and overall condition still remains a certain percentage X of the new price.
So you can still get a new one for that lower new price times (100-X)%.
So that is a lot less than when the new price was still unchanged.
Stelvio is a great car, 2.2D is a superb engine. They’re good spec from factory if you avoid the base spec cars. Retrofit Apple CarPlay, buy one with big belt service done. We are on our second after having had a few Macans, Stelvio is far better value. Macan is a slightly better car but Stelvio way cheaper.
You forgot to mention "when"? In a year? In a month? In 10 years?
There is a massive difference between cutting price due to innovation in production vs cutting price when nobody want to buy. Unfortunately it's the latter for EV.
no. the prices for new EVs are getting down. that means this is the new reference price for the used cars as well. and then, new cars are also more attractive and better as well. this together is enough to explain the depreciation.
Yes... It's sooo simple and clear and yet everybody covers their eyes not to see the elephant in the room. Even when it trumpets 😂
In fact the opposite is true.
Basically, no one that rents their residence, is on a vacation, that wants lower insurance rates, cheaper and quicker repairs, a vehicle that doesn’t plummet in value, that doesn’t take hours to fill up, or cares about the environment, wants one of those pieces of junk.
You need to check reality, soon residential areas have EV chargers on the parking lots and the cheaper insurance rates, and repairs will go to EVs and the hours of charging is seconds to plug it in and unplug it when you leave, just like charging your phone.
And it is a lot cheaper to drive an EV than an ICE car
In my opinion it is absolutely not sustainable. The life span of cars are getting shorter and shorter, so manufacturers can sell more new cars. And with a huge influx of foreign brands coming to compete, the traditional European best selling car brands needs to fight for every penny of profit.
In Denmark at my dealer, this month EVs have been 90% of all order intake. Furthermore almost all of these "sales" are short-term leasing, only 12 months. Reason being, if you want to pick 24 or 36 months, the monthly fee actually increases significantly, since it is uncertain what market value the cars will have by then. The used EV car market will have absolute bargains in the coming years. Actually it already does.
"Demand is down" but overall ev market penetration and sales for several automakers are up year on year. Cause that makes sense at all....
we had leasing companys buying ev's here. and when the contract ended, no one wanted to buy the ev's, so the prices plumbeted on them.
1) because auto trader always try to put a positive spin on EVs and 2) because it’s company cars where all the sales are. This is gonna become a real issue in a 3 years when the market is absolutely flooded up to the eyeballs in used EVs which NOONE wants
@@AndrewTSqNoticed how the title of the video doesn't say anything about USED ev?
Most sales are to fleets not private buyers, sales to the public are down.
@@papasmith7648And your numbers verifying that clam come from where?
Genuine question, does anyone know if there are enough rare earth metals to make all the electric cars 8 billion+ people will need?
No, there's not. A lot of sources saying this now. Copper is literally a national security issue too. Plus, its not just the cars themselves, if people want more charging, endless roads need to be dug up and more cables installed. AI uses huge amounts of energy (set to get even worse) if people want self driving. It's utter madness when you really think about it.
Yes, there are. It is estimated there are around 3 to 4 times the amount of materials still in the ground, than will be needed over the next couple of decades. And try not to confuse the word "rare" as meaning scarce, when talking about the mineral elements required to build EV batteries. It is a technical/scientific term, and does not mean scarcity.......
@Brian-om2hh yes it's in the ground, but you need to do your research - what's the annual mine supply for copper, neodymium, gallium etc? For some elements needed its literally decades worth of total mine supply.
And spoiler alert - you're not getting that out of the ground using electric plant...
Strange time to bring that up but yes. Also, there aren't 8bn cars in the world now, and will likely never be
Cobalt is used for petrol refining so that's another issue for ICE cars
Great video as always from Rory. I wouldn't mind seeing something talking about the problems people are facing insuring some electric vehicles - if insurers keep the rates sky-high it's likely to hinder adoption...
It won’t . They will adjust overtime as EV’s become more common and the standard.
Insurance is only expensive because EV's are overpriced in the Western world. That's about to change!
@@Aggie4life77 If they stay economically unviable to repair then insurance rates will stay sky-high, moreso since fewer insurance companies will be open to insuring them due to the increased financial risk they present.
£10K buys a family 'Neta V' in Thailand. Blame the UK government for you having to pay more.
Governments do not sell cars. What a surprise, isn't it?
It's a problem to get the price down mainly because, to a large extent, cars are sold by the Kilogram (or Pound). BEVs seem to be around 30% heavier than similar ICE cars. More metal, more plastic, more everything, 30% more in fact, and the raw materials and the processes to turn them into parts, logically add extra cost. You can't really cut any weight out of the battery or the range suffers and I would be doubtful about significant enough cost reduction. While Tesla's Gigacast process may reduce a little weight and simplify production I don't see that will enable the cost savings to make BEVs equally competitive with ICE vehicles. Many of the legacy manufacturers (depending on the region) have basically abandoned the small car ICE market is because it's virtually impossible to make a reasonable profit on them.
Then, while Tesla is cutting prices, they are also sacrificing margin in an increasingly desperate attempt to maintain volume against a flood of even more desperate cheaper Chinese competition.
Finally, where are all the cheap second-hand BEVs going to come from when surely many of the original owners who have been burnt so badly on resale will probably swear to never buy another EV.
What people don't mention is how simple the engines are, which cuts costs and gives long term reliability. Electric motor less than 100 parts. My Alfa V6 about 1600!
YES BUT WITH YOUR ALFA YOU ARE NOT SITTING 12 INCHES ABOVE AN UNEXPLODED BOMB !!
Tesla sold more EVs WW in 2023 than BYD.
BYD did sell more evs in 4th qtr 2023. But dropped 40% in January 2024
Which again means BYD only had the first place for one qtr in 2023
EV prices are to set fall because they are 💩 I refuse to be bullied into buying one.
Second hand prices have fallen through the floor. Dealers don’t want them on the forecourt.
Lol, except that they are taking so much market share that in a country like China, their are zombie factories for combustion engine cars. The only reason people did not buy them is because of price, but once they come close, people massively prefer electric cars like in China.
Prices are about to dive ???? They've already taken a dive. Dive any further and they'll have to start giving them away, and you know what, I still wouldn't want one.
The price will fall further, and you will soon want one for sure even if you only buy used cars!
You probably have a smart phone, a flat panel TV and some streaming service and if you have a camera its Digital, but you do not have horses, wired phone or a CTR TV and you probably don't have audio tape, VHS or BETA max and hardly use your DVD or BLUE ray player anymore, things change to the better and cheaper all the time
Like many people in the uk . I have held off purchasing an EV . Because the battery prices and the life span of those batteries. I do like the specs of most . But i think 5 years i will reconsider.
Batteries are typically guaranteed for 8 years, some for life. And that presumes the capacity will drop by max 20% over that time. That's not an issue.
My Daughter bought the MG4 and it’s an absolute heap. The financial ombudsman is now involved to get her released from her agreement.
It's 55 grand for a Porsche Taycan replacement battery more than a used one a couple years old...not my kind of maths.
£55k - not really !
Firstly - All Taycan's have an 8 year battery warranty (doesn't mean they fail the day after this expires) Fuel powered cars only come with a 3 year warranty🤣
Secondly - Refurbished Taycan batteries cost just £8.5k !
You wouldn't replace a broken engine in an 8+ year old car with brand OEM engine, costing £10k+, so why would you do the dame with a battery (if indeed it actually ever needs replacing)
@SDK2006b All good and well providing you haven't bought a Porsche Taycan that is modified which will void the Porsche warranty...buying used might mean you don't know your Taycan has been modified...but don't worry Porsche will make sure you are the first to know your used Taycan was modified prior to your ownership therefore the warranty is void...thanks for letting me know 8 grand for a battery is the fall back position 😀
@@GiftorReid-xv7oo - the from new warranty expires after 8 years, so obviously you would only get a refurbished battery after this period. Then there is no warranty to lose!
No doubt Porsche will sell you an extra warranty, like they do with their ICE cars. Those Porsche engines are expensive to replace as well 😊
@SDK2006b Good luck with choosing the right charging points because if you choose the wrong charging points Porsche will take that as your own negligence should you damage the battery...the warranty is void then...you won't know which is the wrong charging point until it's too late 😉
@@GiftorReid-xv7oo - sounds like you’ve been watching too much anti-EV clickbait BS!
Who's gonna spend £45k on a taycan to only be able to do 50k miles before the battery warranty is up and hope they don't have to pay another £45k to replace it?
Incorrect you have no clue 8 year warranty and the mileage isn’t 50k either
@@Speedking2022UK I was referring to what he said in the videos. He stated the taycan had almost 50k miles and the warrant expires in another 50k miles so where was I wrong?
@@Speedking2022UK might want to watch the video and use your brain! Pretty obvious he wasn’t talking about a new one at 45k.
@@badassbiker78 your maths perhaps,? 50k plus “another 50k” sounds more like 100k in total.
@@marcm807 did you watch the video? That number I quoted is clearly what I was saying.the used taycan already has almost 50k miles on .another 50k later and the battery is out of warranty.
Congratulations Rory!
Because few people want them.
Respect for what you have made this channel. Quality stuff ❤
The deprecation alone is insane. Can lose 100K on a Taycan the day after you take delivery
That's the same with all sportcars
@@tedarcher9120what crazy person even spends £120k on a car anyway
You don't lose anything if you lease it rather than buying it.....
Where can I buy a 1 day old Taycan for £100k less than RRP?