I praise God that in the parrishes I've been a part of in France we celebrated Novus Ordo reverently, with incense, pipe organ, cantillation, bowing, Gregorian chant, and polyphonic sacred chants !
Man, I am 100% on board with this! I saw the discarding of the old hymn books and adoption of modern pop music in my Protestant church in the years preceding my conversion to Catholicism. That music literally pained my soul and helped drive me away! Words cannot describe the visceral HATRED I have for modern "praise and worship" music in the Church setting because of my experiences! Don't get me wrong -- some (a small minority) of that music is actually good. But I would say it's great for a Christian concert, but it has absolutely NO place in the Mass. Another commenter said he actually had a Spice Girls song at the end of Mass in his parish -- I would hit that door and never come back, and just like him, find another parish! To me, that is just as unacceptable and irreverent as the infamous "clown Mass", to be singing secular pop music during Mass, even at the end.
@philcortens5214 I would consider it if there's one near me. But I'm not sure that's necessarily the answer. Unlike the "rad trads", I am NOT a TLM purist. My first experience with the Catholic Church was a Novus Ordo mass in 2020, done in a very tasteful way. I was blown away by it! I think the Novus Ordo can be done in a way that holds onto many traditional elements and sacred music, and it's more than fine. How I wish there were more composers like Paul Jernberg, and that more parishes would use sacred music of that type!
@@donm-tv8cm I keep starting a reply and it keeps getting erased. So I'll just get right to the point. (You should know) the differences between the two 'rites' or 'forms' are not inconsequential, the Novus Ordo being (at best, on my view) a watered-down version of a time-tested treasure. It wasn't broke, why was it 'fixed'? What needed fixing was not the liturgy, but the hearts and minds of the priests and people.
Dr Kwasniewski explains and teaches so well. Had the delightful privilege of meeting him and having dinner with him with other loval faithful on his recent visit to SC. He was as personable and lovely to talk with as one might imagine. Very thankful for the gift of his intellect and voice.
Thank you for this interview! We're blessed to be able to assist at Mass at St. Patrick's Oratory in Green Bay where the TLM is celebrated by canons of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. The sung Mass is glorious!
It's time? No, it's well past time and should never have happened. I served in the music ministry in the Novus Ordo mass for years and years (piano, guitar & vocally) and it took stepping away from the ministry for me to re-assess the music I was creating. None of anything I ever played in the NO Mass was worthy of Christ's sacrifice, as the folk and pop style music I played is not the height of human musical expression. And only the best of Human achievement and inspiration should be put at the foot of the altar in worship of Christ. Not to mention the ego building that occurs when a choir is visibly performing for the laity. The choir should not be visible to the laity as the music is not supposed to entertain the faithful, it's supposed to be offered to God to help people in their spiritual walk during the Mass. None of that really happens at the NO Mass, as evidenced by the applause the choir performers would sometimes get at the end of the Mass.
🤺☦🇷🇺For all you Protestants and Vatican II Catholics (=Protestants) out there: What do you think church music is a private program for your tastes? No, it ain't complicated at all, in fact it is very simple! 1. Protestant music (which includes Evangelical) is heretic secularist nonsense disguised as Christian. 2. Music for church is music that suppose to be passed down, just like oral Tradition and everything, from the church fathers! You don't understand the basics. The traditional Liturgy from Roman times is what Liturgy must be, and everything else is heresy. 3. Church music isn't even "music", it is PRAYER - holy eternal and never changing, just like the church style decorations and everything. Get it good inside your heads, that the whole world is in constant change, except from the church - because God's throne and kingdom is beyond space and time and never changes!!
While I do not question the validity of the new Mass, I also have come to the realization that it is not fixable. As harsh as it sounds, I think that trying to introduce chant and polyphony to the Ordinary Form is like loaning your Bentley to a frat party.
Yes. This 1000x. I know that my parish has some antiphons, but I don’t know how to introduce chant (or learn it myself). I bought By Flowing Waters and The Proper of the Mass, but I feel somewhat helpless as what to do with them sometimes.
Thank you for this interview; I hope we can have these discussions in every parish, and do whatever is necessary to offer God beautiful sacred music at Mass. It hurts so much to hear the piano banging out silly tunes for Mass parts when we already have so many amazing old settings that are not difficult to sing.
Brian, thank you for all your great videos. My son is 16 years old and a sophomore at a Catholic high school here in Virginia. If you go to his RUclips channel 'Mr. Roy Wulf', you can see a video of a presentation he did earlier this week about his love for Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony. He does a very soft sell of traditional music though, as there are still many who resist traditional music in favor of the modern liturgical music that started in the 1970s or those who applaud, for example, the techno music played at World Youth Day.
I have been to mass and have had Wannabe by the Spice Girls play out on exit. The reasoning was that it relating to Solomon choosing was what he really wanted, as in Wisdom. This veering toward irreverence pushed me to go to another, less local, church.
On a Fr. Z Post, I remember reading an anecdote about a Jewish musicologist overhearing a Catholic priest singing a Psalm chant. The musicologist told the priest that the chant melodies came from Jewish chants, such as those at the time of Jesus. Makes a lot of sense to me.
That's not..... quite true. There are traces of Jewish cantillation in some of the repertoire's music, such as Dies Irae. But Gregorian chant has its entire own history, originating in the 8th century as a fusion of the liturgical music of Charlemagne's Carolingian churches and an earlier style of Roman chant that had developed in the city of Rome.
i always did the musical fasting. now i have gotten to the point that I no linger want to listen to any music except music which I think that participates partially in God's sacred beauty.
I attend the Latin Mass every opportunity I can. But I also attend the NO. When I walk into the TLM church, my soul is lifted above the worldly. The Gregorian chant is something so sacred. But when I attend the NO, they sing and play music, which seems so secular. It is something I can tune into on the radio on any religious music station. Although it is better than rock, it is not as uplifting and sacred to me. Brian, Peter was a wonderful guest! Thank you.
At our ordinary form parish, we sing Gregorian chant propers, but also hymns. It is a goal in the present liturgy to engage the participation of the community, but it is also important to have beauty and the mass texts. We try to thread that needle.
Last year while attending Easter Vigil, the organist accompanied the Litany of the Saints with "When the Saints Go Marching In". Took everything I had to not yell at the end, "Let's Go Blues!!!"
Speaking as a former Catholic now Protestant, the issue of music is something that needs to be addressed across Christendom. There is so much bad modernist music played in church. Not just the lyrics but the music itself.
Hey Brian, do you have a link to that music-swapped scene from Passion of the Christ? Also, would it be possible to host a conversation on this topic with Paul Jernberg? He's done a great job with your theme music, and it'd be interesting to hear from him too.
When you spend so much of your time, energy, and resources focusing your music on trying to get more people to come to Church and essentially have it be about entertaining congregants, then people start to go to Church for music/entertainment instead of God, and choose which Church they attend based on how fun/entertaining it is rather than how much it conforms to truth. I had such a huge issue with this notion, which played one of many roles in my converting from nondenominational Christianity to Catholicism.
@@Gwyll_ArboghastA bit snarky? The list of wonderful music to listen to is vast. First, there is a very long choral tradition of sacred music from hundreds of composers over centuries. There is the Sacred Harp tradition of hymns. There are collections of hymns from many different denominations, which include many folk tunes. There is genuine folk music. Beyond the sacred, there is an array of wonderful, non-sacred early music, much of it instrumental, from the medieval, renaissance and baroque periods. There is the chant found in many churches worldwide. I am sure he would include all of it.
On metrical-bodily connection; I find that sometimes, especially during litanies, that the bodily aspect induces a trance-like silence in the soul. What is the place of that in the Mass? It ought to stay.
It was when Pope Paul VI introduced the New Novel Rite that he called Gregorian Chant and Latin "silk purses" implying perhaps a leather or plastic purse is to be preferred!
In regard to the adoption of certain things from the pagan world by the early church, this is often misunderstood. The early church fathers were very careful about what they adopted and what they rejected. They could be vehemently opposed to anything having to do with idolatry and the liturgical practices of the pagans. There were certain philosophical ideas, which they found fruitful, but only as modified by Christianity. There were other philosophical movements that were outright rejected. The determining factor was whether something from the pagan world was in accord with natural law and with Christian belief. They did have an understanding that certain pagan thinkers were seeking after virtue, and after God, although in a very incomplete way. In the last several decades, the adoption of music popular in our culture into the church has not been done carefully. The underlying motivation is to make the church in someway look like the culture so people will feel comfortable coming to it. There has been no careful analysis of what is being adopted. I am mostly familiar with this on the protestant side. There, contemporary “praise music” has not only been substituted for other kinds of music, but it has overtaken the entire liturgy. In my sister’s church, which is otherwise Bible believing, there is an opening prayer, praise music by a band, a sermon, more music, and a closing prayer. The church I left a few years ago, was heading in that direction as well. They took out things like the doxology, the lord’s prayer, the call to worship, the offering. The rationale was that the praise band people were not used to those things and so we couldn’t use them.
the "free rhythm" idea of gregorian chant is a new invention, and almost certainly not historical. solesmes advocated a certain mensural interpretation, but the fact is we dont know how rhythm was interpreted in western medieval chant. we just dont have the necessary evidence. i am not saying that free rhythm isnt nice, but it doesnt make sense as a purported essential feature of chant that makes it "special". to be fair, it is unclear whether he is talking about the particular unmeasured rhythmic interpretation, or merely the fact that it is not in a *regular* meter. if the latter, then i agree that is a feature, but only because he is limiting his scope essentially to chants of scriptural quotation, which is a feature of scripture, not of chant. if as he says, he is not dismissing non-scriptural hymns, then there is nothing wrong with chant composed to a meter, regular or otherwise.
As a parish music director, I used to take him very seriously, especially when he was a "reform of the reform" leader. But now that he's outright rejected the Editio Typicae of the Roman Missal (ie the Mass of Paul VI) entirely, I can't really take him that seriously anymore. Why would he have any good advice for parish music directors in a liturgical form he doesn't believe should exist? As to Gregorian chant's major minor thing, mode VII is roughly the equivalent of pentatonic major scale, and mode I is pretty close to minor pentatonic. The music isn't completely alien.
ICEL has copyrighted translations into English of traditional Latin hymns in 2023. Paul Rose on Sing The Hours frequently uses them. I pray Wilmington Diocese TLM and NO masses will use them to replace the Reformation hymns. I frequently go to a NO mass w/o hymns. Another said it makes for a more contemplative experience. It reminds me of a TLM low mass.
Bravo. I think Music, as an exclusively human creation, has beautiness on it own and touches Transcendence, independently of one admitting it or not. Nevertheless people have affective memories as well - many times imposed (our Modern world is full of that by e.g. indoctrination at school or social groups). Affections distort the perception, and good / not good get misty and crippled... there is a RESIGNIFICATION of things. Speaking of the Church and contextualising to the current moment, liturgic 'tradition' (be the silence, be the historical uses) are transmutted into 'oppression'. In Brazil, sacred music is avoided by modern clergy and their flocks for 'old', 'cold', 'hard', 'non-popular', 'colonial' and - wow! - 'anti-Vatican2-ish': they like acoustic guitars, tambourines, liberation-theology themed chants - musically poor, theologically shallow, ideologically poisoned.
33:56 Andy Warhol deliberately tried to mass produce art. It was a heroic benevolent tactic to bring art to the masses. Lower the cost by raising the supply. It didn't work. But, I admire the effort.
Not all churches can afford a pipe organ. I honestly don't see the problem with piano or electric keyboard as as a cheaper substitute when necessary. Also, pipe organs of various types are used at fairgrounds and concert halls as well, does that make them unsuitable? Personally (as a not particularly competent organist), I find playing electric keyboards/organs easier because you have volume control and a transpose button.
I'm 77 so I came of age in the 60's. I NEVER liked mass produced "folk" music. We won't even talk about rock. I was taught to listen to Italian Opera, the Classical composers and Neapolitan songs. Total music nerd and of course I grew up in the Church pre-Vat 2 so of course I was familiar with Gregorian Chant and the other sacred music of the ages. Now I live in Israel and it's all Novus Ordo. I was going to an english language Mass but when they started singing "Majesty" and the Communion hymn was "Ode to Joy" with Christianized lyrics, I was done. I also sometimes attended a Hebrew speaking Mass but they do bad renditions of Messianic Jewish Music, some of which is actually pretty good when done right, and it's hippie dippy NeoCatecumenate Kumbaya stuff. Bad voices, poor instrumentals and a less than lovely language. Ugh! My best option musically is the Arab Mass. The it is sung in Arabic but more traditional and I do get "fed" spiritually from it. I don't speak Arabic. I have been considering the Byzantine rite but that would mean dealing with an unfamiliar language AND rite.
I asked the guy who does the Sat. Evening Mass music if he knew Panis Angelicus and he didn't. When I tried to play it. sung by Domingo on my phone for him he couldn't listen. That to me is one of the most beautiful hymns in the Church and this dope, who is a good musician actually, couldn't bear it.
Fixing liturgical music is a monument task if it it put into another language. Some languages are inherently difficult for singing eg the Germanc and Slavonic groups, with awkward vowels or clusters of consonants.
Fortunately, those languages have long, deep, and proud musical traditions that are worth gleaning from. Translating songs from other languages may be very difficult as you say.
I don’t know about that, Russian Orthodox liturgical music (which is for the most part done in Slavonic) is arguably the best sacred music in the world. German, on the other hand, I know little about, other than that they have a rich operatic heritage (which must count for something).
The ignorance and hostility for sacred music don't end with chant and polyphony. It also extends to composers of contemporary liturgical music, such as Arvo Pärt or Henrik Goreky. It's incumbent upon the TLM parishes to be centers for the arts as a means of evangelizing the culture. I say this because efforts to do so at O.F. parishes are always met with rejection or indifference.
Good discussion, as objec†ive aesthetics isn't discussed often enough, even though it's true. One nitpick: Puccini is one of the greatest melody smiths ever, but most of his libretti weren't particularly good. Not sure you'd lose too much if Manon Lescaut were artfully set to Calvin & Hobbes. Verdi? No way you'd want to do that...
the reason we have music at mass is because Jesus & the disciples preached that we should sing out to God yet that we should not use musical instruments as the words should come from our heart not some musical beat , as our love reflects our feelings for & to God .
"Gregorian chant is special because it is mostly taken straight from Scripture". ok, are we throwing out half of byzantine chant? i know, you said you are not throwing out 'hymns' as such, but then what is your point?
I'm totally in agreeance on his sacred music views. But I don't see his case that great music can't be popular, flamboyant, or loud? He might could make the case that much of modern music is immoral and/or poor quality. But would he admit that the craft of making a fantastic concept album or making a singeable, catchy riff is artistically valid?? On his point of "everyone finds these great!" But everyone loves garth brooks or Queen or Daft Punk..... these all seem like half baked attempts to argue your own musical taste DESERVES to be preserved and appreciated.
There are reverent NO Masses which have the traditional beauty and even some Latin. From what I see online though, it looks like the NO in America is usually irreverent, so I wonder if it’s a bit of a geographical divide, where some places saw the NO as an excuse to modernize…
@@alexabihabib8215 The NO is a Protestant experimental Mass. It is a universal problem. At WYD, the kids were asked to write what they wanted from the Synod. They overwhelming asked for a return to the Traditional Mass and sound doctrine.
As a musician, the only place where the great Treasury of Catholic Sacred Music fits and can be put to work most beautifully to the saving of souls, is the TLM. The Sixties Mass is too dialoguey and difficult to fit to., especially dumbed down and ambiguous wuth Eucharist as a foot note. Many musos ive know either go to the Anglicans or stop going to church, even after doing good music. Its not working in NO.
Maybe if kids were exposed to the arts and not just SPORTS in the US, they would have that appreciation. Kids who show an interest in art are bullied and ridiculed and most places don't even have adequate facilities for the arts. In Italy, a kid just hast to walk to the nearest piazza or church to see beautiful art and even those who enjoy the latest pop music, know opera because it's everywhere. When I was in the airport in Rome in March, one of the personnel was singing "Nessun Dorma" as he worked! America doesn't have that so you will just have to work a bit harder to find ways to enrich their lives.
"chant is written in 8 different modes... that just means that the shape of the melodies is going to sound very different to our modern ears because they are so ancient that they come from a world before the invention of major and minor keys" i am baffled. this is an unexpectedly ridiculous statement. let me take this one point at a time. major and minor are literally modes, in the modern sense of mode. I know full well that the gregorian sense of "mode" encompasses far more than tonic and scale, but that is irrelevant to this point. all that "major and minor key" means in the modern sense is having a minor third degree (or other specific notes, by a more strict interpretation); people throughout history have obviously composed songs in "major and minor keys". the gregorian 1st, & plagal 1st modes (by their proper latin names) are literally minor modes (you could include 2 & plagal 2), and 3, plagal 3, 4, & plagal 4 are major. as for the idea of all modern songs being major or minor (in the stricter sense) is simply not true. there are plenty of examples of "different" modes (again in the modern sense) in hip-hop, jazz, and classical music if you have more than a superficial familiarity with the genres; not to mention jazz scales which largely dont even fall into the 7 mode theory of the equal-tempered major scale. what is actually the case is that most (not all) mainstream, mass-produced, or garbage pop music is in "major" or "minor". this is a historical development wherein other tonal centers were sort of forgotten. that is the highly qualified correct version of Kwasniewski's point. in short, the idea that "major and minor keys hadnt been invented" is ludicrous. the medieval sense of "mode" includes the modern sense, in which sense major and minor *are modes*. "its not written in major and minor keys, its written in ~mOdEs~" dont get me wrong, you dont need to sell me on chant; my expertise is in the practice of byzantine chant. but it just doesnt help to have these magical ideas about it.
It's my understanding that a line can be drawn at about the baroque era when music began to be written exclusively in the tonal system of major/minor in such a way to be distinct from what we call the modes. The ionian mode uses the same notes as the major scale, and aeolian as natural minor; but in the tonal system the natural minor is rarely used without the raised 7th degree or raised 6th + 7th, which I think implies a different harmonic approach of intensifying the V-i cadence. Maybe we're using the terminology differently in our views of music history, but I think there's a real distinction here. The earlier modal music (aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian) certainly sounds different to my ear than the tonal (major/minor) approach that came to dominate from the 16th - 19th centuries, and even most jazz and pop I've come across fits better with the tonal perspective.
@@roca967 yes, i admitted there is the movement toward the predominance of natural maj and min. but by the most modern (kind of strict) definition, those are modes. you speak of the natural minor being rarely used without raising the 6th or 7th degree. i was originally taught "melodic minor" as raising those degrees on the way up and dropping them on the way down, which is a tiny bit closer to the older conception of modes having melodic rules; to my understanding, most modern theory dispenses with that idea and calls "melodic minor" the one with permanent sharp 6 and 7. i remind you that writing in ~"modes"~ never went away, though major and minor came to predominate. in other words, there is a movement in time away from the medieval conception of modes and toward the reduced definition of a mode being just the base in a scale. what i hear you saying is that there is a place between the medieval and now that has an intermediate idea of mode. i agree, but i would say that you can still largely apply the modern idea of mode to any era, regardless of how you could also apply a different idea of mode.
Went to a mass last week with no music and it was a relief. No music or choir/vocal/organ only please please! 🙏 I can’t even stand a solo piano most times, in my experience the sound is too clunky and childish, like nursery rhymes. I’m sorry but the cheesy music has got to go if you want to encourage younger generations to continue attending and *enjoy* Mass. a reverent environment helps one to be more passionate in their faith instead of frustrated and distracted. The songs being sung most places are outdated and terrible to anyone who grew up with modern music. Replacing with more modern music is not appropriate either. Mass should feel reverent and special because it is! The bad music is discouraging and makes it hard to concentrate on the reason we are there. I specifically choose the farthest away church in my town just to avoid the bad music. It’s a drive but anything to be at peace at mass. I want to pray and commune with God, not sing someone else’s favorite church tune from 1975.
Being born Catholic...not by choice...catholism certainly grabbed me off the get go...mass every morning before school was boring to my fellow students.i felt the of presence of the Lord....learned latin...and became an alter boy in 2nd grade...altho a "bad apple" and a rebel...being beaten by most nuns...my grades were VG..after the massacre of the Latin mass the "words of power"...faded and I lost interest when the folk singers entered the scene....if I wanted to be a pentecostal....sure folk music/ jam session would be just fine....#all the world needs is another folk singer # words of power # when millions of believers join together in prayer... vibrations enter...being a believer in my personal hero...Jesus Christ... it's blasfamous and baby steps to a one world religion....The modern mass has become a boring 45 minute waste 9f time...(peace to you)
@@jayhunstiger3609 thanks for the spell check...I could use...living in mexico for long time...I replacing my ingles for spanish... como se dice en espanol "saludos desde mexico"?
This is just meant as constructive criticism. I would warn the guest to drop the spiel about the modes and major and minor keys. Modes are used very commonly on profane music of all kinds. In fact "major" and "minor" keys are just other names for some of the modes. Saying stuff like that will only harm his credibility on musical topics
As interesting as this topic is, I personally disagree with some of the things said. I don't think the organ is a more superior instrument to the guitar or piano when it comes to sacred music. We are called to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. We can use any instrument and I think they have as much value as any other instrument. In King David's time, they used trumpets and lutes and tambourines. Are not lutes the precursors for the guitar? I find the organ drowns out the natural human voice. It's an arrogant instrument imho. When St Peter was questioning whether it was okay for Jews to eat gentile food Jesus gave him a vision and said what was unclean has now been made clean by his blood. Therefore, any instrument used once in pagan worship that is now used in Christian worship is surely clean. I feel more disengaged with God in a high mass with an organ or plain chant than one with folk music and guitars. Granted the songs should still be theologically sound and rich, rather than the self-absorbed shallow Hill Songs and the likes. but I do believe Our Lord treasures what every praise we offer Him, however we offer it, so long as our hearts are in the right place,
Cool. But the Church actually teaches that it's the supreme instrument for sacred music. Vatican II says, "In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things." Tra Le Solicitudini says that it's the only appropriate instrument at mass.
Since the Islamic world is out of control and violent can Christianity have a golden age? can Catholics Protestants and Orthodox do Art Mathematics Medicine and maybe some science Spread the word! in europe and around the world!
Fr. Chad Ripperger stresses the negative influence of the syncoped rhythmes on the human body and soul and the appetites a particular music is evoking. So according to him there cannot be a christian pop rock or jazz music. The plants apparently also react negative to the rock music (deformation) and positive to classical music (healthy plants). That makes me worried, cause I love guitar instrumentals (Bach), also electrical guitar instrumentals (some Satriani stuff). I wonder if the electrical guitar in itself is an evil instrument, Fr. Ripperger hasnt spoken about the instruments themselves.
Does anybody think in Latin? How can anyone think that God can be honoured and worshipped in an extinct language by the faithful baffles me. In the traditional Mass parishioners literally sat at the back of the church and prayed the rosary because they couldn't engage. Did Jesus die on the cross for the Tridentine Mass or did He die for the salvation of souls? The Mass has become an idol. What about marriage, what about work, what about life in God's world, are they not worthy of the same attention? The Eucharist is a sacrament, not the Tridentine Mass. Maybe they should have translated the Tridentine Mass into vernacular, but even then the participation by the lay faithful would be minimal. The idea that bringing back the old mass is going to save the universe is a fallacy. The Roman Catholic Church has lost sight of what is important, and that is people.
As a professed "popesplainer". I can find several things to disagree with him about. Why is he not teaching any more? What happened? His writing at 1P5 is interesting. I wonder who he thinks the Pope is?
@@halleylujah247 The music is integrally part of the mass... which touches on the issue of Sacrosanctum Concilium and the problems that came about after the council. It's all related so it's natural he's going to talk about the authority of the Pope and ecclesiology and all of that.
Music needs to embody the artistic energy of its time. I have been moved more by contemporary hymns than Gregorian or Roman Chant. I like chant and I see its role. The hymn "Seek ye first.." is GREAT. It has drawn me closer to God than any chant. "The Canticle of Mary" outdoes the Magnificat. Long ago, I heard a men's choir put everything they had into singing a Gregorian Chant. I understood how much effort they put into it. It fell flat with the parishioners. Contemporary hymns are more effective in eliciting faith, hope, love and charity than a theologically correct chant which only seems to praise God in a very platonic fashion. I have yet to see a Charismatic Mass with Gregorian Chant in it.
Your comment is all assertion and no argument. You don't support anything you say with evidence, scripture, or Church authority. You claims are entirely subjective about what you like and what you think works. But the magisterium, the tradition of the Church, and the timeless practices of the Church (and a variety of other cults of worship) are against you in that.
Hymns are based on scripture and tradition. If they are played in front of a Bishop, that is an endorsement from the Magisterium itself. Vatican II joyfully accepts the contemporary arts. The former Archbishop Chaput stated that Vatican II was the greatest grace God bestowed upon the Church in the Twentieth Century. It was more important than Mary's appearance at Fatima! He was a living element of the Magisterium. Vatican II IS Catholicism. All artists embrace their time. If Beethoven wrote a bunch of Gregorian Chants, he never would have made an impact. By embodying Romanticism, Beethoven created the standard of Classical Music. His influence can be demonstrated. The compositions of other composters influenced by him are EVIDENCE. There isn't a music historian out their worth listening to that wouldn't say Beethoven was one of the most significant composers ever to have lived. At the most important moment in his 9th Symphony, the speaker looks up to the stars and sees evidence of God's existence. That is highly evangelical! It didn't take place in chant. Beethoven's text is evidence admissible in a court of law. Record sales, the fees being paid by churches to play hymns and views on RUclips are EVIDENCE. It can be easily counted. The calculable influence contemporary hymns have had on faith in America is unmissable and a clear net positive. In my previous comment, I cited EVENTS which I attended. I was a WITNESS to those events. I could be cross-examined in a court of law. A jury would determine that those events took place. That the BEST evidence that there is. If one were to record a bunch of Catholics joyfully singing contemporary hymns and being inspired by a message based on The Gospel, EVIDENCE would be created. It isn't subjective because hundreds of unique individuals would be experiencing the same phenomenon. The Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, the priests, the composer(s), the music director, the musicians and the generous faithful laity think it WORKS. Gregorian Chant had a beginning centuries after Christ's public ministry. It has a sacred function. Contemporary hymns also have a beginning and also have a sacred function. "Seek ye first " is also timeless. I expect it will be sung 500 years from now. Tradition is what is "handed on". Contemporary hymns are wonderfully inspiring faith-based works of art that help proclaim the Good News. I am very glad that many of them have been handed on to the following generations. They are now a part of the tradition of the Church. The long term success of the hymns tells me that they have received God's blessing. I think that is the best endorsement one could ever hope for. @@BrianHoldsworth
@@MrSottobanco Regardless of how Contemporary hymns makes you feel, most of it is simply not fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is not all about us and our feelings, it is about giving our best to God, and that includes our music. Most contemporary music played and sung at Mass is anything but the best. I cringe when I hear most of it.
You will have to answer to Jesus how you profited off of tearing down Christianity by complaining about the music instead of using your illgot profits to spread the gospel of love. Judus was also a complainer.
I praise God that in the parrishes I've been a part of in France we celebrated Novus Ordo reverently, with incense, pipe organ, cantillation, bowing, Gregorian chant, and polyphonic sacred chants !
Dr. Peter Kwasniewski is awesome! Thanks for having him on!
Dr. K is the most honest and knowledgeable theologian on the internet.
As a former cantor, THANK YOU for addressing this. It is so hard to see all the atrocities through music I used to be apart of and still witness today
Man, I am 100% on board with this! I saw the discarding of the old hymn books and adoption of modern pop music in my Protestant church in the years preceding my conversion to Catholicism. That music literally pained my soul and helped drive me away!
Words cannot describe the visceral HATRED I have for modern "praise and worship" music in the Church setting because of my experiences! Don't get me wrong -- some (a small minority) of that music is actually good. But I would say it's great for a Christian concert, but it has absolutely NO place in the Mass.
Another commenter said he actually had a Spice Girls song at the end of Mass in his parish -- I would hit that door and never come back, and just like him, find another parish! To me, that is just as unacceptable and irreverent as the infamous "clown Mass", to be singing secular pop music during Mass, even at the end.
So well stated. I wish bishops would direct this topic in the parishes.
And so now you go to the traditional Latin Mass where you find it?
@philcortens5214 I would consider it if there's one near me. But I'm not sure that's necessarily the answer.
Unlike the "rad trads", I am NOT a TLM purist. My first experience with the Catholic Church was a Novus Ordo mass in 2020, done in a very tasteful way. I was blown away by it! I think the Novus Ordo can be done in a way that holds onto many traditional elements and sacred music, and it's more than fine. How I wish there were more composers like Paul Jernberg, and that more parishes would use sacred music of that type!
@@donm-tv8cm I keep starting a reply and it keeps getting erased. So I'll just get right to the point. (You should know) the differences between the two 'rites' or 'forms' are not inconsequential, the Novus Ordo being (at best, on my view) a watered-down version of a time-tested treasure. It wasn't broke, why was it 'fixed'? What needed fixing was not the liturgy, but the hearts and minds of the priests and people.
@@donm-tv8cm I've been trying to respond to your comments. Did you receive my previous reply?
Dr Kwasniewski explains and teaches so well. Had the delightful privilege of meeting him and having dinner with him with other loval faithful on his recent visit to SC. He was as personable and lovely to talk with as one might imagine. Very thankful for the gift of his intellect and voice.
Thank you for having this discussion. It's a much needed conversation that's happening more and more every day.
Thank you for this interview! We're blessed to be able to assist at Mass at St. Patrick's Oratory in Green Bay where the TLM is celebrated by canons of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. The sung Mass is glorious!
It's time? No, it's well past time and should never have happened. I served in the music ministry in the Novus Ordo mass for years and years (piano, guitar & vocally) and it took stepping away from the ministry for me to re-assess the music I was creating. None of anything I ever played in the NO Mass was worthy of Christ's sacrifice, as the folk and pop style music I played is not the height of human musical expression. And only the best of Human achievement and inspiration should be put at the foot of the altar in worship of Christ. Not to mention the ego building that occurs when a choir is visibly performing for the laity. The choir should not be visible to the laity as the music is not supposed to entertain the faithful, it's supposed to be offered to God to help people in their spiritual walk during the Mass. None of that really happens at the NO Mass, as evidenced by the applause the choir performers would sometimes get at the end of the Mass.
I was involved in NO "music ministry" for years myself and have had very much the same experience.
This is so true
Applause makes me want to fashion a whip of cords.
🤺☦🇷🇺For all you Protestants and Vatican II Catholics (=Protestants) out there: What do you think church music is a private program for your tastes? No, it ain't complicated at all, in fact it is very simple!
1. Protestant music (which includes Evangelical) is heretic secularist nonsense disguised as Christian.
2. Music for church is music that suppose to be passed down, just like oral Tradition and everything, from the church fathers! You don't understand the basics. The traditional Liturgy from Roman times is what Liturgy must be, and everything else is heresy.
3. Church music isn't even "music", it is PRAYER - holy eternal and never changing, just like the church style decorations and everything. Get it good inside your heads, that the whole world is in constant change, except from the church - because God's throne and kingdom is beyond space and time and never changes!!
While I do not question the validity of the new Mass, I also have come to the realization that it is not fixable. As harsh as it sounds, I think that trying to introduce chant and polyphony to the Ordinary Form is like loaning your Bentley to a frat party.
Could you make a video on how you'd start implementing chant at a music director at a parish that has no chant experience?
Yes. This 1000x. I know that my parish has some antiphons, but I don’t know how to introduce chant (or learn it myself). I bought By Flowing Waters and The Proper of the Mass, but I feel somewhat helpless as what to do with them sometimes.
Seconded; how do we get STARTED.
Thank you for this interview; I hope we can have these discussions in every parish, and do whatever is necessary to offer God beautiful sacred music at Mass. It hurts so much to hear the piano banging out silly tunes for Mass parts when we already have so many amazing old settings that are not difficult to sing.
Brian, thank you for all your great videos. My son is 16 years old and a sophomore at a Catholic high school here in Virginia. If you go to his RUclips channel 'Mr. Roy Wulf', you can see a video of a presentation he did earlier this week about his love for Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony. He does a very soft sell of traditional music though, as there are still many who resist traditional music in favor of the modern liturgical music that started in the 1970s or those who applaud, for example, the techno music played at World Youth Day.
I have been to mass and have had Wannabe by the Spice Girls play out on exit.
The reasoning was that it relating to Solomon choosing was what he really wanted, as in Wisdom.
This veering toward irreverence pushed me to go to another, less local, church.
Now that’s a new kind of low. A good exiting/ recessional song, though; it sends people running for the door to a land far, far away.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 🤣🤣🤣
@andrewvenables 😮😮😮
Great video! On a very timely subject. Thank you Brian and Dr K. Great work!
Thankyou! I have been thinking along these lines and it is great to have it explained so well.
On a Fr. Z Post, I remember reading an anecdote about a Jewish musicologist overhearing a Catholic priest singing a Psalm chant. The musicologist told the priest that the chant melodies came from Jewish chants, such as those at the time of Jesus. Makes a lot of sense to me.
That's not..... quite true. There are traces of Jewish cantillation in some of the repertoire's music, such as Dies Irae. But Gregorian chant has its entire own history, originating in the 8th century as a fusion of the liturgical music of Charlemagne's Carolingian churches and an earlier style of Roman chant that had developed in the city of Rome.
i always did the musical fasting. now i have gotten to the point that I no linger want to listen to any music except music which I think that participates partially in God's sacred beauty.
I really enjoyed this interview. Great conversation.
Got to meet him once and really had no idea who he was. Very approachable anyway. He sang at my parish schola as well which was cool.
Very edifying. I've never really given this a lot of thought prior to this.
I attend the Latin Mass every opportunity I can. But I also attend the NO. When I walk into the TLM church, my soul is lifted above the worldly. The Gregorian chant is something so sacred. But when I attend the NO, they sing and play music, which seems so secular. It is something I can tune into on the radio on any religious music station. Although it is better than rock, it is not as uplifting and sacred to me.
Brian, Peter was a wonderful guest! Thank you.
At our ordinary form parish, we sing Gregorian chant propers, but also hymns. It is a goal in the present liturgy to engage the participation of the community, but it is also important to have beauty and the mass texts. We try to thread that needle.
Last year while attending Easter Vigil, the organist accompanied the Litany of the Saints with "When the Saints Go Marching In".
Took everything I had to not yell at the end, "Let's Go Blues!!!"
You must be joking?!!!
Sancta Maria…. Ora pro nobis….🎶
I actually like 'When the Saints Go Marching In' but I think there's certainly a time and a place where it's appropriate
Great interview. Thank you!
Definitely need to bring back Gregorian Chant and pipe organs.
Organs sound like brassy crap. Greg chant is cool
@@acrxsls1766 Brass conveys power
Brass sounds like crap compared to the human voice or even a simple piano. Even a harp sounds better
@@acrxsls1766 Someone was a woodwind player in highschool
Nothing like the sound of a good organ combined with human voices whose hearts love God!
Love the conversation!
Speaking as a former Catholic now Protestant, the issue of music is something that needs to be addressed across Christendom. There is so much bad modernist music played in church. Not just the lyrics but the music itself.
Return back home , you've fallen into apostasy
Repent and become a member of the true body of Christ
This was a great discussion.
3 Aves for each of you 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻✝️
Yes. Praise and worship music has no place in the Mass!
Hey Brian, do you have a link to that music-swapped scene from Passion of the Christ? Also, would it be possible to host a conversation on this topic with Paul Jernberg? He's done a great job with your theme music, and it'd be interesting to hear from him too.
Hearing banal Protestant songs at the NO mass drives me insane. Why are the bishops silent on this topic?
Love Dr. K
When you spend so much of your time, energy, and resources focusing your music on trying to get more people to come to Church and essentially have it be about entertaining congregants, then people start to go to Church for music/entertainment instead of God, and choose which Church they attend based on how fun/entertaining it is rather than how much it conforms to truth.
I had such a huge issue with this notion, which played one of many roles in my converting from nondenominational Christianity to Catholicism.
The use of music is also rooted in very early Christian tradition and practice and was also prefigured in Jewish singing of the scriptures.
Could you post a complete playlist of the music you want your students to listen to, please?
it sounds like his list might just be short enough to accomplish that.
@@Gwyll_ArboghastA bit snarky? The list of wonderful music to listen to is vast. First, there is a very long choral tradition of sacred music from hundreds of composers over centuries. There is the Sacred Harp tradition of hymns. There are collections of hymns from many different denominations, which include many folk tunes. There is genuine folk music. Beyond the sacred, there is an array of wonderful, non-sacred early music, much of it instrumental, from the medieval, renaissance and baroque periods. There is the chant found in many churches worldwide. I am sure he would include all of it.
On metrical-bodily connection; I find that sometimes, especially during litanies, that the bodily aspect induces a trance-like silence in the soul. What is the place of that in the Mass? It ought to stay.
YES! I haven't even watched this yet but yes.
Where can I find that last supper/praise and worship video
Peter is an incredible writer.
Is “Merry Christmas Everyone” by Slade an appropriate Carol for Christmas Day?
It was when Pope Paul VI introduced the New Novel Rite that he called Gregorian Chant and Latin "silk purses" implying perhaps a leather or plastic purse is to be preferred!
In regard to the adoption of certain things from the pagan world by the early church, this is often misunderstood. The early church fathers were very careful about what they adopted and what they rejected. They could be vehemently opposed to anything having to do with idolatry and the liturgical practices of the pagans. There were certain philosophical ideas, which they found fruitful, but only as modified by Christianity. There were other philosophical movements that were outright rejected. The determining factor was whether something from the pagan world was in accord with natural law and with Christian belief. They did have an understanding that certain pagan thinkers were seeking after virtue, and after God, although in a very incomplete way. In the last several decades, the adoption of music popular in our culture into the church has not been done carefully. The underlying motivation is to make the church in someway look like the culture so people will feel comfortable coming to it. There has been no careful analysis of what is being adopted. I am mostly familiar with this on the protestant side. There, contemporary “praise music” has not only been substituted for other kinds of music, but it has overtaken the entire liturgy. In my sister’s church, which is otherwise Bible believing, there is an opening prayer, praise music by a band, a sermon, more music, and a closing prayer. The church I left a few years ago, was heading in that direction as well. They took out things like the doxology, the lord’s prayer, the call to worship, the offering. The rationale was that the praise band people were not used to those things and so we couldn’t use them.
the "free rhythm" idea of gregorian chant is a new invention, and almost certainly not historical. solesmes advocated a certain mensural interpretation, but the fact is we dont know how rhythm was interpreted in western medieval chant. we just dont have the necessary evidence.
i am not saying that free rhythm isnt nice, but it doesnt make sense as a purported essential feature of chant that makes it "special".
to be fair, it is unclear whether he is talking about the particular unmeasured rhythmic interpretation, or merely the fact that it is not in a *regular* meter. if the latter, then i agree that is a feature, but only because he is limiting his scope essentially to chants of scriptural quotation, which is a feature of scripture, not of chant. if as he says, he is not dismissing non-scriptural hymns, then there is nothing wrong with chant composed to a meter, regular or otherwise.
As a parish music director, I used to take him very seriously, especially when he was a "reform of the reform" leader. But now that he's outright rejected the Editio Typicae of the Roman Missal (ie the Mass of Paul VI) entirely, I can't really take him that seriously anymore. Why would he have any good advice for parish music directors in a liturgical form he doesn't believe should exist?
As to Gregorian chant's major minor thing, mode VII is roughly the equivalent of pentatonic major scale, and mode I is pretty close to minor pentatonic. The music isn't completely alien.
ICEL has copyrighted translations into English of traditional Latin hymns in 2023. Paul Rose on Sing The Hours frequently uses them. I pray Wilmington Diocese TLM and NO masses will use them to replace the Reformation hymns. I frequently go to a NO mass w/o hymns. Another said it makes for a more contemplative experience. It reminds me of a TLM low mass.
Bravo. I think Music, as an exclusively human creation, has beautiness on it own and touches Transcendence, independently of one admitting it or not. Nevertheless people have affective memories as well - many times imposed (our Modern world is full of that by e.g. indoctrination at school or social groups). Affections distort the perception, and good / not good get misty and crippled... there is a RESIGNIFICATION of things.
Speaking of the Church and contextualising to the current moment, liturgic 'tradition' (be the silence, be the historical uses) are transmutted into 'oppression'. In Brazil, sacred music is avoided by modern clergy and their flocks for 'old', 'cold', 'hard', 'non-popular', 'colonial' and - wow! - 'anti-Vatican2-ish': they like acoustic guitars, tambourines, liberation-theology themed chants - musically poor, theologically shallow, ideologically poisoned.
yes I love gregorian chant
33:56 Andy Warhol deliberately tried to mass produce art. It was a heroic benevolent tactic to bring art to the masses. Lower the cost by raising the supply. It didn't work. But, I admire the effort.
(((Warhol))), I'm sure. He was a CIA asset and fraud. Nothing he did was benevolent.
I just covered the exact thing with a Ward Method trained choirmaster. Must be in the air lol
Great
Yes
24:33 can you refer me to this video! I would love to share it with some of my friends who don’t understand this issue!
It's in this one of his videos: ruclips.net/video/Qe1c-4Tp2JE/видео.html
Not all churches can afford a pipe organ. I honestly don't see the problem with piano or electric keyboard as as a cheaper substitute when necessary. Also, pipe organs of various types are used at fairgrounds and concert halls as well, does that make them unsuitable? Personally (as a not particularly competent organist), I find playing electric keyboards/organs easier because you have volume control and a transpose button.
it is just not true that chant never changed , or that it was the same "all the way back"
Is it a groovy idea to base church music on cheesy 60s folk pop songs? Has that been tried?
I'm 77 so I came of age in the 60's. I NEVER liked mass produced "folk" music. We won't even talk about rock. I was taught to listen to Italian Opera, the Classical composers and Neapolitan songs. Total music nerd and of course I grew up in the Church pre-Vat 2 so of course I was familiar with Gregorian Chant and the other sacred music of the ages. Now I live in Israel and it's all Novus Ordo. I was going to an english language Mass but when they started singing "Majesty" and the Communion hymn was "Ode to Joy" with Christianized lyrics, I was done. I also sometimes attended a Hebrew speaking Mass but they do bad renditions of Messianic Jewish Music, some of which is actually pretty good when done right, and it's hippie dippy NeoCatecumenate Kumbaya stuff. Bad voices, poor instrumentals and a less than lovely language. Ugh! My best option musically is the Arab Mass. The it is sung in Arabic but more traditional and I do get "fed" spiritually from it. I don't speak Arabic. I have been considering the Byzantine rite but that would mean dealing with an unfamiliar language AND rite.
I asked the guy who does the Sat. Evening Mass music if he knew Panis Angelicus and he didn't. When I tried to play it. sung by Domingo on my phone for him he couldn't listen. That to me is one of the most beautiful hymns in the Church and this dope, who is a good musician actually, couldn't bear it.
Fixing liturgical music is a monument task if it it put into another language. Some languages are inherently difficult for singing eg the Germanc and Slavonic groups, with awkward vowels or clusters of consonants.
Fortunately, those languages have long, deep, and proud musical traditions that are worth gleaning from. Translating songs from other languages may be very difficult as you say.
I don’t know about that, Russian Orthodox liturgical music (which is for the most part done in Slavonic) is arguably the best sacred music in the world. German, on the other hand, I know little about, other than that they have a rich operatic heritage (which must count for something).
I'm so sick of ,snapping fingers, tambourines, and guitars....and the piano too.
The ignorance and hostility for sacred music don't end with chant and polyphony. It also extends to composers of contemporary liturgical music, such as Arvo Pärt or Henrik Goreky. It's incumbent upon the TLM parishes to be centers for the arts as a means of evangelizing the culture. I say this because efforts to do so at O.F. parishes are always met with rejection or indifference.
Modern church music does not do anything for me to be closer to God. If anything it turnes me away.
Good discussion, as objec†ive aesthetics isn't discussed often enough, even though it's true. One nitpick: Puccini is one of the greatest melody smiths ever, but most of his libretti weren't particularly good. Not sure you'd lose too much if Manon Lescaut were artfully set to Calvin & Hobbes. Verdi? No way you'd want to do that...
the reason we have music at mass is because Jesus & the disciples preached that we should sing out to God yet that we should not use musical instruments as the words should come from our heart not some musical beat , as our love reflects our feelings for & to God .
"Gregorian chant is special because it is mostly taken straight from Scripture".
ok, are we throwing out half of byzantine chant? i know, you said you are not throwing out 'hymns' as such, but then what is your point?
@Brian Holdsworth have you heard of Apocalyptica plays Metallica.
Metaphysically speaking, angels produce the best music. We should follow their lead.
you're right, we should only sing metaphysically
I'm totally in agreeance on his sacred music views. But I don't see his case that great music can't be popular, flamboyant, or loud? He might could make the case that much of modern music is immoral and/or poor quality. But would he admit that the craft of making a fantastic concept album or making a singeable, catchy riff is artistically valid?? On his point of "everyone finds these great!" But everyone loves garth brooks or Queen or Daft Punk..... these all seem like half baked attempts to argue your own musical taste DESERVES to be preserved and appreciated.
Gregorian Chant is the Liturgy. There's no way to listen to or appreciate Gregorian Chant outside the liturgical times and prayers where it belongs.
When you go into an NO Mass, you have little sense that you are in the presence of God.
There are reverent NO Masses which have the traditional beauty and even some Latin. From what I see online though, it looks like the NO in America is usually irreverent, so I wonder if it’s a bit of a geographical divide, where some places saw the NO as an excuse to modernize…
@@alexabihabib8215 The NO is a Protestant experimental Mass. It is a universal problem. At WYD, the kids were asked to write what they wanted from the Synod. They overwhelming asked for a return to the Traditional Mass and sound doctrine.
As a musician, the only place where the great Treasury of Catholic Sacred Music fits and can be put to work most beautifully to the saving of souls, is the TLM. The Sixties Mass is too dialoguey and difficult to fit to., especially dumbed down and ambiguous wuth Eucharist as a foot note. Many musos ive know either go to the Anglicans or stop going to church, even after doing good music. Its not working in NO.
Maybe if kids were exposed to the arts and not just SPORTS in the US, they would have that appreciation. Kids who show an interest in art are bullied and ridiculed and most places don't even have adequate facilities for the arts. In Italy, a kid just hast to walk to the nearest piazza or church to see beautiful art and even those who enjoy the latest pop music, know opera because it's everywhere. When I was in the airport in Rome in March, one of the personnel was singing "Nessun Dorma" as he worked! America doesn't have that so you will just have to work a bit harder to find ways to enrich their lives.
Also, refer to the book, "The Evidential Power of Beauty" by Thomas Dubay, SJ. There is such a thing as bad music
👍
"chant is written in 8 different modes... that just means that the shape of the melodies is going to sound very different to our modern ears because they are so ancient that they come from a world before the invention of major and minor keys"
i am baffled. this is an unexpectedly ridiculous statement.
let me take this one point at a time.
major and minor are literally modes, in the modern sense of mode. I know full well that the gregorian sense of "mode" encompasses far more than tonic and scale, but that is irrelevant to this point.
all that "major and minor key" means in the modern sense is having a minor third degree (or other specific notes, by a more strict interpretation); people throughout history have obviously composed songs in "major and minor keys". the gregorian 1st, & plagal 1st modes (by their proper latin names) are literally minor modes (you could include 2 & plagal 2), and 3, plagal 3, 4, & plagal 4 are major.
as for the idea of all modern songs being major or minor (in the stricter sense) is simply not true. there are plenty of examples of "different" modes (again in the modern sense) in hip-hop, jazz, and classical music if you have more than a superficial familiarity with the genres; not to mention jazz scales which largely dont even fall into the 7 mode theory of the equal-tempered major scale.
what is actually the case is that most (not all) mainstream, mass-produced, or garbage pop music is in "major" or "minor". this is a historical development wherein other tonal centers were sort of forgotten. that is the highly qualified correct version of Kwasniewski's point.
in short, the idea that "major and minor keys hadnt been invented" is ludicrous. the medieval sense of "mode" includes the modern sense, in which sense major and minor *are modes*.
"its not written in major and minor keys, its written in ~mOdEs~"
dont get me wrong, you dont need to sell me on chant; my expertise is in the practice of byzantine chant. but it just doesnt help to have these magical ideas about it.
It's my understanding that a line can be drawn at about the baroque era when music began to be written exclusively in the tonal system of major/minor in such a way to be distinct from what we call the modes.
The ionian mode uses the same notes as the major scale, and aeolian as natural minor; but in the tonal system the natural minor is rarely used without the raised 7th degree or raised 6th + 7th, which I think implies a different harmonic approach of intensifying the V-i cadence.
Maybe we're using the terminology differently in our views of music history, but I think there's a real distinction here. The earlier modal music (aeolian, locrian, ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian) certainly sounds different to my ear than the tonal (major/minor) approach that came to dominate from the 16th - 19th centuries, and even most jazz and pop I've come across fits better with the tonal perspective.
@@roca967 yes, i admitted there is the movement toward the predominance of natural maj and min. but by the most modern (kind of strict) definition, those are modes.
you speak of the natural minor being rarely used without raising the 6th or 7th degree. i was originally taught "melodic minor" as raising those degrees on the way up and dropping them on the way down, which is a tiny bit closer to the older conception of modes having melodic rules; to my understanding, most modern theory dispenses with that idea and calls "melodic minor" the one with permanent sharp 6 and 7.
i remind you that writing in ~"modes"~ never went away, though major and minor came to predominate.
in other words, there is a movement in time away from the medieval conception of modes and toward the reduced definition of a mode being just the base in a scale.
what i hear you saying is that there is a place between the medieval and now that has an intermediate idea of mode. i agree, but i would say that you can still largely apply the modern idea of mode to any era, regardless of how you could also apply a different idea of mode.
Imagine doing todays music during the Latin Mass. enough said !!!!!!!
Went to a mass last week with no music and it was a relief. No music or choir/vocal/organ only please please! 🙏 I can’t even stand a solo piano most times, in my experience the sound is too clunky and childish, like nursery rhymes.
I’m sorry but the cheesy music has got to go if you want to encourage younger generations to continue attending and *enjoy* Mass. a reverent environment helps one to be more passionate in their faith instead of frustrated and distracted. The songs being sung most places are outdated and terrible to anyone who grew up with modern music. Replacing with more modern music is not appropriate either. Mass should feel reverent and special because it is! The bad music is discouraging and makes it hard to concentrate on the reason we are there.
I specifically choose the farthest away church in my town just to avoid the bad music. It’s a drive but anything to be at peace at mass. I want to pray and commune with God, not sing someone else’s favorite church tune from 1975.
Being born Catholic...not by choice...catholism certainly grabbed me off the get go...mass every morning before school was boring to my fellow students.i felt the of presence of the Lord....learned latin...and became an alter boy in 2nd grade...altho a "bad apple" and a rebel...being beaten by most nuns...my grades were VG..after the massacre of the Latin mass the "words of power"...faded and I lost interest when the folk singers entered the scene....if I wanted to be a pentecostal....sure folk music/ jam session would be just fine....#all the world needs is another folk singer # words of power # when millions of believers join together in prayer... vibrations enter...being a believer in my personal hero...Jesus Christ... it's blasfamous and baby steps to a one world religion....The modern mass has become a boring 45 minute waste 9f time...(peace to you)
Altar, not alter.
@@jayhunstiger3609 thanks for the spell check...I could use...living in mexico for long time...I replacing my ingles for spanish... como se dice en espanol "saludos desde mexico"?
@@jimranallo686Saludos desde Arizona. Many of in Arizona know Spanish.
@@desertrat1111 very good to hear from you...take good care
This is just meant as constructive criticism. I would warn the guest to drop the spiel about the modes and major and minor keys. Modes are used very commonly on profane music of all kinds. In fact "major" and "minor" keys are just other names for some of the modes. Saying stuff like that will only harm his credibility on musical topics
Plato was aware of the harm done by the modes corresponding to the major and minor keys.
As interesting as this topic is, I personally disagree with some of the things said. I don't think the organ is a more superior instrument to the guitar or piano when it comes to sacred music. We are called to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. We can use any instrument and I think they have as much value as any other instrument. In King David's time, they used trumpets and lutes and tambourines. Are not lutes the precursors for the guitar? I find the organ drowns out the natural human voice. It's an arrogant instrument imho. When St Peter was questioning whether it was okay for Jews to eat gentile food Jesus gave him a vision and said what was unclean has now been made clean by his blood. Therefore, any instrument used once in pagan worship that is now used in Christian worship is surely clean. I feel more disengaged with God in a high mass with an organ or plain chant than one with folk music and guitars. Granted the songs should still be theologically sound and rich, rather than the self-absorbed shallow Hill Songs and the likes. but I do believe Our Lord treasures what every praise we offer Him, however we offer it, so long as our hearts are in the right place,
Cool. But the Church actually teaches that it's the supreme instrument for sacred music. Vatican II says, "In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things." Tra Le Solicitudini says that it's the only appropriate instrument at mass.
Mass ahpuod have gregorian chant and thats it.
Most music at Holy Mass is an abomination. Distracting, shallow ,annoying.too showy etc
Lol we love Marty Haugen!
And we love Dan Shutte, just not their songs, those we do not like
Great idea too fast from music all together
Yes yes yes yes yes dignum et justum est
Since the Islamic world is out of control and violent can Christianity have a golden age? can Catholics Protestants and Orthodox do Art
Mathematics Medicine and maybe some science Spread the word! in europe and around the world!
Fr. Chad Ripperger stresses the negative influence of the syncoped rhythmes on the human body and soul and the appetites a particular music is evoking. So according to him there cannot be a christian pop rock or jazz music. The plants apparently also react negative to the rock music (deformation) and positive to classical music (healthy plants). That makes me worried, cause I love guitar instrumentals (Bach), also electrical guitar instrumentals (some Satriani stuff).
I wonder if the electrical guitar in itself is an evil instrument, Fr. Ripperger hasnt spoken about the instruments themselves.
Whelp, all southern gospel is demonic?
More Bach, oh hang he was protestant
He wrote beautiful music for the Ordinary of the Mass.
Sounds ridiculous but I’m watching guitars, tambourines, and hippie choirs confuse and drive the faithful away. IM SICK AND TIRED OF IT
Does anybody think in Latin? How can anyone think that God can be honoured and worshipped in an extinct language by the faithful baffles me. In the traditional Mass parishioners literally sat at the back of the church and prayed the rosary because they couldn't engage. Did Jesus die on the cross for the Tridentine Mass or did He die for the salvation of souls? The Mass has become an idol. What about marriage, what about work, what about life in God's world, are they not worthy of the same attention? The Eucharist is a sacrament, not the Tridentine Mass. Maybe they should have translated the Tridentine Mass into vernacular, but even then the participation by the lay faithful would be minimal. The idea that bringing back the old mass is going to save the universe is a fallacy. The Roman Catholic Church has lost sight of what is important, and that is people.
Dr. Kwasniewski is awesome! Michael Lofton just tattled on him.
As a professed "popesplainer". I can find several things to disagree with him about. Why is he not teaching any more? What happened? His writing at 1P5 is interesting. I wonder who he thinks the Pope is?
Music in the Mass shouldn't be one of them. Guitars and modern music are an abomination
@@acrxsls1766He should definitely stick to talking about music unfortunately he hasn't.
@@halleylujah247 The music is integrally part of the mass... which touches on the issue of Sacrosanctum Concilium and the problems that came about after the council. It's all related so it's natural he's going to talk about the authority of the Pope and ecclesiology and all of that.
at this point, I think Lofton et al are more like gaslighters than "popesplainers".
Who cares who he thinks the Pope is? Don't you have your own sins to worry about?
Music needs to embody the artistic energy of its time. I have been moved more by contemporary hymns than Gregorian or Roman Chant. I like chant and I see its role. The hymn "Seek ye first.." is GREAT. It has drawn me closer to God than any chant. "The Canticle of Mary" outdoes the Magnificat.
Long ago, I heard a men's choir put everything they had into singing a Gregorian Chant. I understood how much effort they put into it. It fell flat with the parishioners.
Contemporary hymns are more effective in eliciting faith, hope, love and charity than a theologically correct chant which only seems to praise God in a very platonic fashion.
I have yet to see a Charismatic Mass with Gregorian Chant in it.
Your comment is all assertion and no argument. You don't support anything you say with evidence, scripture, or Church authority. You claims are entirely subjective about what you like and what you think works. But the magisterium, the tradition of the Church, and the timeless practices of the Church (and a variety of other cults of worship) are against you in that.
Charismatics aren't Catholics, and Protestant music is gay
Hymns are based on scripture and tradition. If they are played in front of a Bishop, that is an endorsement from the Magisterium itself. Vatican II joyfully accepts the contemporary arts. The former Archbishop Chaput stated that Vatican II was the greatest grace God bestowed upon the Church in the Twentieth Century. It was more important than Mary's appearance at Fatima! He was a living element of the Magisterium. Vatican II IS Catholicism.
All artists embrace their time. If Beethoven wrote a bunch of Gregorian Chants, he never would have made an impact. By embodying Romanticism, Beethoven created the standard of Classical Music. His influence can be demonstrated. The compositions of other composters influenced by him are EVIDENCE. There isn't a music historian out their worth listening to that wouldn't say Beethoven was one of the most significant composers ever to have lived.
At the most important moment in his 9th Symphony, the speaker looks up to the stars and sees evidence of God's existence. That is highly evangelical! It didn't take place in chant. Beethoven's text is evidence admissible in a court of law.
Record sales, the fees being paid by churches to play hymns and views on RUclips are EVIDENCE. It can be easily counted. The calculable influence contemporary hymns have had on faith in America is unmissable and a clear net positive.
In my previous comment, I cited EVENTS which I attended. I was a WITNESS to those events. I could be cross-examined in a court of law. A jury would determine that those events took place. That the BEST evidence that there is.
If one were to record a bunch of Catholics joyfully singing contemporary hymns and being inspired by a message based on The Gospel, EVIDENCE would be created. It isn't subjective because hundreds of unique individuals would be experiencing the same phenomenon. The Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, the priests, the composer(s), the music director, the musicians and the generous faithful laity think it WORKS.
Gregorian Chant had a beginning centuries after Christ's public ministry. It has a sacred function. Contemporary hymns also have a beginning and also have a sacred function. "Seek ye first " is also timeless. I expect it will be sung 500 years from now.
Tradition is what is "handed on". Contemporary hymns are wonderfully inspiring faith-based works of art that help proclaim the Good News. I am very glad that many of them have been handed on to the following generations. They are now a part of the tradition of the Church.
The long term success of the hymns tells me that they have received God's blessing. I think that is the best endorsement one could ever hope for.
@@BrianHoldsworth
If you want contemporary Lutheran music, go to the Lutheran church. Nobody goes to a Catholic cathedral hoping to hear “What a Beautiful Name”.
@@MrSottobanco Regardless of how Contemporary hymns makes you feel, most of it is simply not fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is not all about us and our feelings, it is about giving our best to God, and that includes our music. Most contemporary music played and sung at Mass is anything but the best. I cringe when I hear most of it.
Peter is an SSPX schismatic shill who thinks he knows better than the church. Forget him. Unsubscribed for giving him a platform.
Bye Felicia 🤣
That’s defamation calling him a schismatic.
If you've been around here long enough, you'd know that he doesn't denounce someone's ideas just because they have other ideas he disagrees with.
You will have to answer to Jesus how you profited off of tearing down Christianity by complaining about the music instead of using your illgot profits to spread the gospel of love. Judus was also a complainer.
Why do you say he has "illgot" profits?
Love the conversation!