I was born in 1971 in the Philippines. My family is very religious Catholics. But the mass when I was younger (1970's to early 80's) although it's Novus Ordo is so different from the Novus Ordo of today. First, we received communion kneeling down around the rail near the altar. Then, a young male sacristan has a flat pan like metal that he would hold under the person's chin as the person was receiving the Holy Host by tongue from the priest. We also had choir accompanied by a piano organ. Most of the women also wore veils over their heads and everyone dressed up nicely, not very casual, meaning no denim jeans or t-shirts or shorts and tanktops nor flip flops. Also, I remember on the contrition, we tapped our hearts on 'grievous fault...' 3 times, and also during the, 'I'm not worthy to receive prayer, we kneel, then put our right hand on our left chest, also on the Kyrie which was always sung. I feel that there was so much reverence even though it's a Novus Ordo. Now, here in Vegas, I've been to two churches where there were no kneeling pads on the pews which means that instead of kneeling when it's supposed to, people stand up, even during the consecration and prayer before the communion and after one is returning to the seat after the communion. I moved into a new house 3 yrs. ago, so I had to move to a new parish. This parish doesn't have the Tabernacle behind the altar. Instead, it's tucked away to one area of the church. During mass, the choir is what's in the front and center, just behind the altar where the priest celebrates the mass. The choir area is even a step higher than the altar itself. Also, not even a cross is displayed on the altar except during mass, and wall above the altar is also bare. I did a Station of the Cross there this Holy Week where we sat down the entire time, no kneeling when it's appropriate like the usual Station of the Cross. Oh, and during the Ash Wednesday, the priest stood in front holding the tray of ashes but he let the people put the ashes on each other instead of him doing it. I guess he didn't want his fingers to get dirty. The priest there also remind people to not kneel down before and after receiving the communion but to stand instead. I want to kneel down to show my reverence to Jesus before and after I receive Him but the priest would remind people not to kneel down (it's also written on the large projection screen) so I stopped going to this parish and went back to my old parish even if it's a 20 minute drive from my house. All these different parish priests are doing their own thing that it's not really helping people to get closer to God, especially during mass. People are confused about how mass should be celebrated because each Parish is doing something different. It's not a surprise that newly convert people are so drawn to the Traditional Latin mass, and surprisingly more men than women too. I pray that the Holy Spirit guides all priests, bishops, and deacons and especially Pope Francis, as he too has caused more confusion, divisions, and disappointments to the flock, especially limiting the TLM. God bless you all.✝️🛐
Agreed. There was kneeling and bowing in the 90s. Now if you took out the statue of Mary from my church you wouldn’t be able to guess what denomination it is.
That’s right. I was born and raised in Madagascar. Although my family is Lutheran, my mom wanted my siblings and I to go to a Catholic school because Catholic schools usually had the best education. We used to go to mass every month in the cathedral near my school. Back then (in the 90s) I didn’t know it was a Novos Ordo Mass, but I remember it was very reverential, with kneeling at each proper time of the liturgy, choir chanting (usually translating the Latin chant in our language), piano organ and all. I loved it.
Enjoyed the discussion. Father seems like a very sincere individual. While beauty and aesthetics do matter, I would charitably like to assert that it is a secondary issue. The fundamental critique of the New liturgy by Traditionalist since the 1970's has been its use of a New theology. The book "The Problem with the liturgical reform" does a wonderful job at explaining this. Even though I might disagree with Father's conclusion, I admire his efforts and sincerity. God bless you all, and save sinners.
Not just that, the blatant protestant involvement in the making of this mass is simply preposterous. Mons Anniballe Bugninni made the perfect storm, and it worked.
NOBODY has AUTHORITY to Judge a Liturgy EXCEPT the Pope alone....So if Pope Paul VI and Pope Francis approves the liturgy, we can only OBEY and shut our mouths.... "POPE PIUS XII It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone😎😎😎😎 enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, 😎😎😎😎as also to modify those he judges😎😎 to require modification." -----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI...🙄🙄🙄🙄
@Krishyy Fan In conformity with the Apostolic Constitution, Quo Primum, promulgated by Pope St. Pius V, Traditionis Custodes solidifies the Tridentine Rite as a distinct and separate Rite from the Roman Rite (TC, Art.1) and therefore establishes that the Tridentine Rite is a lawfully acknowledged Rite which enjoys equal right and dignity to all other Rites and is to be preserved for future use and fostered in every way by Holy Mother Church in accordance with Sacrosanctum Concilium of Vatican Council II (SC, Intro, par. 4).
The great thing about 'The Problem of the Liturgical Reform' is that the SSPX lays out its position and its thinking very clearly. Which has made it easy for others (even many who are highly sympathetic to Traditionalism and supportive of the TLM) to go through and identify the points where the SSPX have made wrong turns theologically. The problem is that the SSPX just tends to ignore them, or accuse them of being 'modernists'. For example, a big issue seems to be the idea of 'sacrifice', where their arguments rely very heavily on their own idiosyncratic idea of what is a sacrifice is and should be, based on a distorted and almost protestantized understanding of St Anselm (and even though the Church has never defined the exact nature of Christ's sacrifice dogmatically). I say this as someone who attends a TLM (for the aesthetics) and has numerous SSPX friends, and who agrees with them on most cultural (but not theological) issues
Benedict XVI is correct that there is a rupture. The Novus Ordo is the only liturgical revision foisted upon the Church by an arbitrary committee that made decisions based on accommodating Protestants. This is not hearsay - Bugnini, its architect, said as much.
Can you point me to a good book or article that explains this? It's always been explained to me that it was to make room for a more Protestant style, if the local bishop chose to tolerate it, because Protestants seemed to be attracting Catholics away from the older form (not to accommodate Protestants). Of course this view makes a liturgy committee seem less like they are imposing changes but responding to a desire on the part of the faithful. I'm no liturgist, but I think BXVI has it right in his book Spirit of the Liturgy.
@@FrJohnBrownSJ Bugnini said that he wanted to rid the liturgy of all impediments to our “separated brethren. “ Michael Davies wrote three books on the liturgical innovations and the Council and there is an excellent book by a historian , “The great betrayal” by Hugh Ross Williamson (I think Angelus press).
NOBODY has AUTHORITY to Judge a Liturgy EXCEPT the Pope alone....So if Pope Paul VI and Pope Francis approves the liturgy, we can only OBEY and shut our mouths.... "POPE PIUS XII . It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone😎😎😎😎 enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, 😎😎😎😎as also to modify those he judges😎😎 to require modification." -----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI
20:50 "Why don't all of our priests in seminary learn how to celebrate the Extraordinary Form as a basis for how they celebrate the Novus Ordo?" Ad orientem forbidden this year beginning in Chicago and spreads: Chicago (Jan., 2022) Diocese of Venice (Jan., 2022) Diocese of Erie (Jan., 2022) Diocese of Lexington (Feb. 2022)
The theological attention is different, the focus of the NO is on the meal aspect, the celebration, the "party" aspect. The TLM focus is the Sacrifice, the pain, the effort, the penance, aspect. I see it like the parable of the Prodigal Son; the NO is the party celebrated for the lost son that came back, and the TLM is the sacrifice of the lamb made for the prodigal son. The older son (TLM) gets angry at the rebel son (NO) because the rebel son doesn't see the sacrifice behind the party, at the same time the rebel son is angry at the older son because he doesn't understand the sacrifice that took going into the wilderness, lose everything and then humble himself to comeback.
@Rachel James Yup, the thing is that they are both different in principles, it's not the same, at consecration the same thing happens but on every other level it's just not the same, so it doesn't really matter how you implement it both masses will point to a different theological aspect.
Read "Devastated Vineyard" by Dietrich Von Hildebrand plus "The Rhine flows into Tiber" .... on the day NO goes to adore the Lord Ad Orientem while stopping hand communion altogether, then we'll be able to think of a rescuing mission. Until then attend the Traditional Latin Mass
Hey, guys I'm trying to rally support around a young lady named Emily Flaherty. She's a faithful Catholic singer and musician who composes truly original and beautiful music. I had the privilege of meeting her in person and was floored when I heard her sing. It's so hard to find Catholic music that isn't terrible, or that doesn't follow a predictable, cheesy, protestant, praise and worship blueprint. Her music is a breath of fresh air for sure.
Thank you! Found she had some stuff on Amazon Music so I put it in my library. I’m always on the hunt for good Catholic music since I come from Protestantism and had to abandon a lot of that music because my eye were opened to some that were completely heretical and other that were simply theologically weak and made Jesus into nothing more than a boyfriend. I listen to a lot of old stuff as a result, but am always seeking new artists to enjoy. So again, thank you!
@@sarahsunshine78 My pleasure. I really can't recommend her enough. My only complaint is that I wish she had more music. Half of the views she has on her videos are probably my wife, kids, and me. 😂 I'm a singer as well and it's very hard for me to find Catholic music that I actually enjoy. Needless to say, I was beyond thrilled when I found her. I find her music really unique and charming. There's a child-like innocence; even playfulness at times, that I really enjoy. Her music sounds like it should be in a Studio Ghibli movie. I met her at a retreat with Vigil in New Orleans and she's such a shy and soft spoken person that my jaw must have hit the floor when I first saw her perform. I really hope more people find her and she's encouraged to continue to compose and perform for the Lord and the Church.
I live in the Diocese of Wichita, KS. Our priests study at several different seminaries. I have noticed that you can always identify a priest who studied at the Pontifical College Josephinum because of the reverence they celebrate the liturgy. The sad part is that many of today's Catholics want shorter Masses and vocally reject the beauty of a Mass said reverently according to the Roman Missal without taking every shorter option. What you both say is so very true, I agree with Fr. Longenecker.
In my area years ago there were two Roman Catholic priests at different churches that had short 8:00 or 8:30 morning masses that got the message across in that time.
The Novus ordos Theological premise and purpose was to center on man, and to reduce the central mystery of our faith which is the pascal mystery and propitious nature of the sacrifice of Calvary represented on our altar. This can not be removed with out dismantling the Novus Ordo.
The intent of Annibal Bugnini the architect of the new Mass consulted with a council of catholic theologians as well as protestant ministers. The intent was to make a mass that was less offensive to Protestant Christians because the aim of the council was unification of all Christians. This is why ecumenism changed from those of the one Catholic faith separated by regions to all people of the world. The input from the protestant ministers was to inform Bugnini on how certain prayers and gestures emphasize too much the reality of Calvary being present on our altar compared to the memorilization of the supper. Thus this is why the prayers at the foot of the Altar were removed and other prayers that emphasized the propitious nature of the Mass itself. Making our altars tables and turning the priest around is exactly what Bishop Cramner instituted to de-catechize the English Catholics from believing the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One cannot BOTH present the reality of the sacrifice of Calvary on our Altar and also reduce its emphasis and propitious nature. That is like serving God and Mammon.
@@minorityvoice9253 well the turning the alter around and having the mass in the vernacular cannot be the source of the loss of faith in Christ's real presence in the Eucharist. First off the Church felt that it needed to reform the liturgy precisely because most of the laity had no idea what was happening during the mass and why they were coming every Sunday. Having a priest facing away from the people and quietly uttering words in Latin makes it difficult to consciously and spiritually participate in the mass. Second the decent in the percentage of Catholics that attended mass every Sunday in western countries started in the 1940s. Pope Pius XII himself talked about a need for a reform. Third, from my speaking the those who attend the TLM many like to attribute there belief in the sacrifice and real presence to the TLM but when I talk to them for real it not the mass itself responsible for that but a mere explanation and an education of the mass. One good thing that has come from trying to draw in protestants has been the increase use of Biblical scripture during the mass, particularly in the lectionary. Read Scott and Kimbelry Hahn's "Rome Sweet Home". It's the story of their conversion to the Catholic church. Had the first mass that he attended been entirely in Latin there is a good chance that he would have never converted to the Catholic church. He also talks about how pleasantly surprised he was about how filled with scripture the mass was. Scott Hahn now say's that he is unaware of any Christian denomination that reads as wide a variety of scripture on as a consistent basis as the Catholic church. P.S I know you didn't bring up Latin vs vernacular but it all ties in together.
@@maciejpieczula631 the lack of faith after v2 mass. The collapse of morals in the west. And where we are now. When God will return, he will tear them to pieces like our lord Jesus said in the Bible.
I do not know how we as the Church Catholic can honestly look at the fact of the 1970 missal sharing only 17% of the prayers of the Tridentine Mass, and not see it as blatant rupture.
I don't know who proposes this percentage - but it is clearly false. Put the two texts side by side, and there's definitely nowhere near an 83% difference. When you look at the texts side by side that is clearly a false statement. The only way you could possibly get there is to include the lectionary (which is dumb - how can anyone complain we now read too much bible in church?)
@@admiralbob77 I am happy to be proven wrong, although I actually object to more bible = automatically better. If badly placed or badly chosen readings obfuscate the worship in the liturgy then their presence is not necessarily better than their absence.
@@leejennifercorlewayres9193 Boy, then you should hate the council of Trent. Because it was as big a renewal as Vatican II was, and a lot of devotional traditions were removed from the mass.
@@admiralbob77 Devotional traditions come and go, but when you substantially change the mass in a way that it becomes utter unrecognizable, rupture is inevitable.
Good talk, now get an SSPX priest on and have your own challenging conversation with someone on “that side of things”. Just a thought though, your the boss of your own channel :) Pax.
Aren’t they a schismatic clergy not in communion with Rome though? Please correct me if I’m wrong because I heard conflicting information (surprise surprise) ….
@@CatholicsForTrump No they are not but are persecuted for their loyalty to the Mass and the faith . They refused Rome out of desperate necessity thanks to them we have the Mass . They have an irregular position
I appreciate that you pushed back on some of his statements. While I generally like Father Longnecker every time I hear him, he must realize that his stance is one the current Pope doesn't want to continue. Benedict was all for this idea of reforming the reform, and making sure there was no rupture. Francis has thrown off that idea totally and his favorite bishops/cardinals are making sure to follow his marching orders (see Chicago). The fact that we even have a discussion about multiple Eucharistic prayers, and one being written EXPLICITLY to please protestants is just mind boggling to me. I'm a convert from Anglicanism as well - and it was confusing as heck for me and my family to understand that the same words and actions in the Catholic church were valid, and in the Anglican church across the street they were not ..bc they look the SAME (NO and Anglican service). I was also a little confused about his use of the word Eucharist when speaking of Anglican and Lutherans as well. They don't have the Eucharist. They might have "communion" but they don't have the actual Eucharist. At least not in the way we use the word - to refer to the real presence. One last thing that jumped out at me, was the discussion of priestly formation. If Fr admits that no priests are getting this sort of education that is necessary...then his ideas seem dead in the water. The changes in his parish are a blip on the map and in time. We have had one pastor for 10y and he's renovated our parish to bring back the traditional elements, worked to more reverent worship - and now we are getting a new pastor and we are rightly worried. Changes tend to go the wrong direction many times with priest change over. I enjoyed this interview a lot and love the gracious and humble way you speak with guests, while still making strong points.
Benedict and JPII are to blame for the pushing through and implementing of the satanic Novus Ordo, the demonic, sacrilegious changes to the mass and both of the lifelong buddies were in the front row and facilitators of the ABOMINATIONS OF ASSISI. So stop idolizing Benedict just because in his old age he "seemed" to return to tradition. He most certainly didn't otherwise he would have declared the Vatican II heresies for Null and void. Yet he didn't!
A minor point, but customarily, members of religious orders or societies (including priests) are called by their first name (Brother/ Father Aidan) and secular or diocesan priests are referred to by their last name (Father Smith).
Is that so? I've never heard of this. My experience is that priests in parishes are often Fr. First but in schools it's Fr. Last, making me nearly always Fr. Brown though I am a religious priest. I wonder if you picked up on your idea from hearing religious call each other Bro First or something similar. In any case, call me whatever.
@@FrJohnBrownSJ I was a Benedictine monk for twenty years and using the first name is not only the custom among monastics but also at the houses of studies pf other religious orders that I stayed, including Sant'Anselmo in Rome. It is also the custom among mendicant friars as well. Likewise, when I did parish mission work in dioceses it was common practice for the diocesan priest to use his last name with Father or Monsignor unless he told his parishioners otherwise. Perhaps the Jesuits have a different custom. Admittedly my contact with Jesuits has been limited usually to liturgical conferences where we were all using first names and the topic never came up.
@@mattmackmack9173 Interesting! So I guess my question would be if there is some tangible source for this custom. I can't remember reading this for myself, but I was told that Saint Ignatius preferred no titles be used between priests in-house for the Society of Jesus. However, lay students called priests Father Last, brothers Brother Last, and scholastics Mister Last.
@@FrJohnBrownSJ Ar one time, most religious orders and dioceses produced "consuetudines" or a book of customs that would have covered such topics as forms of address, dress and other protocols. However, I think most of these have either been radically simplified or discontinued altogether. I have seen some sites online concerning forms of address and protocol but honestly most of them have some accurate info but other info borders on the specious. Over the centuries, there has often been some tension of distinction between religious order clergy and secular or diocesan clergy. This has taken on a variety of forms depending on the era and country. Other times there have been efforts (often by civil authorities) to blur or minimize the distinctions, For example, in Germany with the 19th century restoration of Benedictine monastic life in Bavaria, monks wore detachable hoods or cowls as part of their habit and still do. When out of the cloister and in public, monks were required by law to remove the cowl so they would be indistinguishable from the diocesan or secular clergy because of the socio-cultural sentiment at the time. I am not certain, but I believe forms of address of clergy might also have been altered at the time. These protocols of course, have become largely miscellaneous issues in present day Catholic life in Germany. There were times when I was in Bavaria with other Benedictines and we wore street clothes while touring places like Munich.
@ 41:05 Absolutely we should have longer terms for pastors. In my diocese it is about 6 years and that's really not long enough to start any new project. Every priest who comes to my parish so far have been good, but most are simply waiting to be transferred to the next parish. Imagine the good they could do if they had as much time as the Cure d'Ars.
Regarding the topic of inculturation, it is interesting to note the experience of the beloved and respected missionary priest to the tribes of the American mountain west, Fr. Pierre DeSmet. He brought the gospel to the Flatheads, Snakes, Nez Perces, and Pend d'Oreille tribes in the 1840's, and reported that they loved the music and the seriousness of the ceremonies he conducted. Here is a touching excerpt from De Smet's Letters and Sketches: The altar was placed on an elevation, and surrounded with boughs and garlands of flowers; I addressed the congregation in French and in English, and spoke also by an interpreter to the Flat-head and Snake Indians. It was a spectacle truly moving for the heart of a Missionary, to behold an assembly composed of so many different nations, who all assisted at our holy mysteries with great satisfaction. - The Canadians sung hymns in French and Latin, and the Indians in their native tongue. It was truly a Catholic worship. . . . This place has been called since that time, by the French Canadians, la prairie de la Messe.
Man, you know this delightful conversation really made me think about how I as a young Catholic try to appropriate my Faith to the videogame culture and community that I've grown up around, or rather the ways in which I must let the Catholic tradition be the primary driver and director of my life, not those lesser cultural modes of communication and action. Brian's experience with the norvus ordo is kinda crazy. None of the norvus ordo masses I've ever been to have some sort of rock youth group choir lol. Then again, I'm still young. I should just be happy all the Norvus Ordo masses I've been to have been solemn and beautiful.
same, there MIGHT have been a cringe-ish song here or there, but aside from that I've fortunately never experienced any serious liturgical abuses first hand either. I'm hoping the younger gens continue to grow past the liturgy wars and focus on bigger issues at hand
What general area are you located in? I'm in a major US city where most of the NO, in the city and in the metro area, are your typical garish music and felt banner type NO masses. I get the feeling that your experience, a solemn NO, isn't the norm across the US.
@@TickleMeElmo55 I have that feeling as well. When I’ve been to NO masses in the US, they were completely normal like every other NO around the world, but I’ve heard news and seem some pictures of…less desireable masses. I don’t live in the states.
Hate is not strong enough of a word for what I felt when they ceased using the organ in my childhood Catholic Church and brought in guitars and drums. Perhaps sheer disgust, revulsion.
I love the Novus Ordo Mass and find it quite beautiful. I feel blessed that my church has a traditional (and non-abused) Novus Ordo, I feel for you who don’t have that, or a TLM nearby :-/
What kills me about this discussion is noone discusses the intent of the architects of the Mass. This has to be central to the arguments of the effectiveness and validity of the Theological purpose of the new mass.
NOBODY has AUTHORITY to Judge a Liturgy EXCEPT the Pope alone....So if Pope Paul VI and Pope Francis approves the liturgy, we can only OBEY and shut our mouths.... "POPE PIUS XII It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone😎😎😎😎 enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, 😎😎😎😎as also to modify those he judges😎😎 to require modification." -----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI...🙄🙄
@@GMLFire That says nothing of if whether or not the layman can have an opinion on the matter. Luther objected to Church doctrine; rites of the mass isn't doctrine of the faith.
All that I know is that I I have fallen in love with Jesus at the TLM. That never happened at the NO. It was not the "bells and whistles " - in fact, it took me a while to settle in at the TLM. Now, this is a love that I know can never be taken away.
Can u see and experience The important parts of Holy Mass in TLM ? like words of institution, invocation of Holy Spirit etc like in Novus Ordo... I believe in Novus Ordo the Royal Priesthood of Laity is more celebrated , we can see experience Holy Mass just like desciples of Jesus Did...
@@MelchizedekVision I would rather have God centered worship. It is not about me...my experience. There is something inherent in the TLM worship that allows/enables myself and many others to fall in love with Jesus - and that is what I have been longing and waiting for. That love had changed my life forever.
Other question - how much of a positive impact did the Liturgical movement have on the shaping of the Liturgy? Here I am assuming that Pius XII 1947 Mediator Dei - a long encyclical letter on the Liturgy - lays the foundations for the Vatican II Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concillium
I'm only 10 minutes in and this is SO helpful to me. I have a dilemma at the moment about choosing a Catholic church to go to each week. My local church - 8 mins walk - is a 1970s monstrosity with agonising Novus Ordo worship. I also have a Victorian Benedictine Abbey (formerly Franciscan Friary) chapel available 15 minutes drive away. I prefer the chapel - for many reasons. But I felt like I was "cheating" by not sticking with my parish. The idea that liturgy is more or less TRUE has helped me find some peace around a decision to stick with the Benedictines. Thank you.
My question is this: is it still the Mass? Or is it just that you don’t like certain presentations or forms and that that leads some to determine that unless its done in the way they prefer or deem official then it’s not the Mass.
Brian, crux question 24:30. Father's answer "so what" is inadequate. A rebuttal is "because unless that committee was the 12 Apostles, Catholics have no business celebrating or attending it."
I've assisted at NOs celebrated as the Church intends (in accord with Tradition). And of course I've assisted at the NO celebrated in a "Calvinist" manner. Even when celebrated well, the NO stands pauper before the TLM....I think because the TLM encourages the spirit of contemplation. The NO cannot tolerate contemplation.
Traditionis custodes made me a Latin Mass advocate. That said I currently go to a NO vigil mass on Saturday and enjoy a Diocese TLM Sunday afternoon at 5:00. I can’t stop the Pope from killing the TLM which seems to be his plan. When he does I hope the TLM will survive in some form of an underground or home church. If it does I’ll attend both as I do now.
@SanctusPaulus-ic5gl Yes the vigil mass is considered a Sunday mass so it fulfills the Sunday obligation. As far as I know you can go to mass as many times you want to any given Sunday but you can only receive the Eucharist once. I don’t know if there is a rule that says you can only go to a vigil mass if you can’t make it to a Sunday mass.
Father Longnecker disputes the claim of ‘rupture’ by the Novus Ordo but both Pope Francis and Archbishop Roche have said that it is incompatible with the traditional Latin Mass. On any analysis, that is a rupture. I understand Father Longnecker’s position of trying to make the Novus Ordo respectful and the best it can be to truly worship our God. He is obviously a beautiful caring priest. And it is true what he says - the liturgy has developed at certain stages but it was always an organic development. He is defending the Novus Ordo in the way that I believed until I became a regular traditional Mass goer and discovered how the Mass catechised me. Now I realise that they are different- not just in superficial aspects, but fundamentally. The Novus Ordo was imposed solely on the authority of Paul VI as Pope. It did not develop organically. It was designed by a committee of Bugnini with Protestant advisers 5 years after the Council. The traditional Mass dates from the 5th century and the Canon, according to Pope Pius V, from Apostolic times. Traditionis Custodes caused me to examine the two forms of liturgy and the Novus Ordo is not the same as the traditional Mass. The Novus Ordo incorporated changes to the Catholic Mass that were introduced by Thomas Cranmer during the English reformation. I used to attend both but since Traditionis Custodes, I will not attend the Novus Ordo. It is true that a faithful Catholic will see the Novus Ordo as similar but there are so many ambiguities that another person can interpret fundamental theological differences in a different understanding. The traditional Mass has completely enriched my life - it is a treasure. To take it away is vandalism.
God bless Fr. Longenecker. I truly believe he is a good priest trying his best to grow in holiness and follow Jesus. However, I have to disagree with a number of things he said in this video. For example, what happens to his parish when he eventually does leave? What he has built in 10+ years might be swept away in less than 10 months (I've seen this happen several times where I live). The Novus Ordo is often death by options. And the next priest might very well choose differently. Secondly, does Father realize that his parish and the reverent NO Mass he celebrates is a "unicorn". The vast majority of Catholics cannot, and never will, be able to attend such "unicorn" Masses. And the problem with options mentioned above guarantee this. Third, do we, or do we not believe the Holy Ghost has guided the Church over the past 2,000 years? If the Holy Ghost has guided the Church and its development, why would we brag about going back to older and earlier forms of worship and liturgical prayers? Why would we abandon liturgical developments guided and protected by the Holy Ghost? Why would we suddenly gut the liturgy and try to use what was earlier as cover? Acorns to oaks, not oaks to acorns. Finally, despite what you might think, you're not making a good case for the NO when you talk about making it more like the TLM. Imagine I could choose Pizza A or Pizza B. I choose Pizza A, but then busy myself trying to make it look like and taste like Pizza B. Why not just order Pizza B in the first place? And none of this even begins to touch the watered down, protestantized theology present in the NO. To Fr. Longenecker's credit, I applaud him for bringing up a couple of times in the video the distorted and even clueless notions people have regarding the Mass. I used to be a "reform of the reform" guy myself, but at some point, people need to accept the reforms were a failure. Continuing to prop up a corpse, and pretend that you can bring it back to life, is only causing more harm. The reality of our situation needs to be acknowledged. And no, I don't believe everything would be magically better if the TLM was suddenly reinstated everywhere. In fact, I readily acknowledge it would cause pain in many places. The disease has been left to spread and fester for too long, and there is no magic bullet at this point. Any remedy taken at this point is going to cause pain.
I think your analysis is spot on Matt. It is the choice that is allowed and encouraged within the Mass that is the problem, even if a good priest can make the better choice regarding sacredness and reverence. The choice has already been made by the tradition of the Church, though lots of discernment and scrutiny. If I were a priest, I would feel unworthy of the choice, say, of Eucharistic prayer 1, 2 or 3 etc.
I agree with your analysis on the liturgy. But the problems in the liturgy are a symptom of the loss of Faith. The NO exists because very simply the hierarchy has largely abandoned The Faith. You are correct that just reinstating the TLM won’t fix the problem because the TLM expresses a religion that the large majority of the faithful & hierarchy no longer believes. We need a huge restoration of both Faith ( morals & doctrine) & then the liturgy will follow & people will accept the TLM as a natural , logical , restoration.
Spot on. Most Catholics get their catechism at Sunday Mass. The TLM is a powerful start. The Church has to go back to basics. My wife is a catechist at our parish school for Catholic children not attending the school. I asked her if she was teaching about heaven and hell to her 6th graders and she said no because the Dir of Catechism said it might scare the kids. Huh? Something wrong here. I also agree that Vatican II shifted our focus from God to man which is at the heart of the Church's problems today.
As a convert to the Catholic faith...I started in the NO Mass, i had no idea....now that we have joined the Ordinariate Catholic Church in our area, I feel robbed. The tradition and beauty truly takes a lifetime to learn and appreciate. After being treated like garbage and not able to attend the NO Mass when covid hit.....It was a blessing. We are now going as a family, and never struggle to get our family of seven to Mass. Our children love the layered beauty and tradition and all the smells and bells, complete with Latin prayers in the confessional. We hope to never leave, and our community is there as Catholics 'On Purpose'.
The Phrase: “The Mystery of Faith” between the two Rites is an ABSOLUTE RUPTURE from Sacred Tradition in Novus Ordo Mass. There is NO continuity there.
Father is not listening to you Bryan. You said the best the unicorn corn Nova's order mass was completely different than the traditional Latin mass and you're absolutely correct
Dear Mr. Holdsworth, The easiest answer to your initial question is simply this: In the New World (at least) Diocesan clergy were/are traditionally addressed as Father (Last name) and Religious Clergy by Father (first name). This was due to the practice of religious changing their names (or receiving a new name assigned by the superiors of their religious congregation) when they took their vows - while secular or diocesan clergy did not do this. There is more to it than this, but this explanation is the simplest way to understand it. Since religious do not ordinarily change their names or have them changed for them after the Vatican 2 reforms of religious life, the proper distinctions in the practice of addressing clergy has become somewhat opaque. Hope this helps.
This was an enlightening discussion. The 'resourcement' agenda led to the removal of high altars and the use of a table in its place. Father Dwight's suggestion of seminarians being trained in the Old Rite is dead in the water because of Pope Francis' motu proprio 'Traditionis custodes' and the Vatican's subsequent publication of the 'Explanatory document'. The latter document further restricts the use and teaching of this rite.
I love the Ordinary Form, hearing the readings and gospels in English (which I usually don't at the TLM church I attend once a week). I love the communal hymns, people saying the creed aloud, communal responses rather than just the altar boys racing through the responses in Latin, and hearing a homily every single time the Word is proclaimed. I go to an FSSP mass once a week because I have a son with Autism who needs quiet and structure.
The good news is that you will always have the Ordinary Form to attend, while I would have to drive four hours to get to a Greek Catholic or Tridentine Mass. I do attend the local Ordinary Form Mass as a result, but (due to cringe-worthy abuses) I have to chew on a stick to get through it.
Our family attends both Masses. We see the radical differences between the communities. Many, if not most, of the Novus Ordo community do not have the Catholic faith. The correlation is near universal. There is no future for the Novus Ordo Mass.
Oh I admit I'm the last person I know who will make it to heaven. But the statistical fact is that most Novus Ordo Catholics do not believe in the fundamentals of Catholic faith. Lack of faith in the true presence and attendance at confession are the biggest indicators. Also, most Catholics believe contraception is morally acceptable. Most Catholics do not attend Mass. There is also a continued decline of baptisms and marriages for the Novu Ordo community. This is why I said it has no future. The traditional community is experiencing the opposite numbers. Increase in baptism, marriage, vocations, etc.
Trying to make the NO reverent and resemble a TLM is like being offered a Quattro Stagioni and a Margherita by a waiter, ordering the Margherita but then adding additional toppings to make it almost like a Quattro Stagioni. Also, the crisis of Faith we're experiencing in the Church is more that just the Mass. The most reverent NO will always be inferior to a TLM. It does not profess the Faith, it deliberately undermines it.
God bless you both, but I disagree there was no rupture. I am 68 years and remember the TLM. I left the Faith for a long time after being turned off by the NOM as a teen. I came back and was on fire for a time till I witnessed heresy in homilies of a new theology that accompanies the NOM. I was a cantor in a NO parish for several years. I left the NOM parish and eventually found the TLM parish I now attend. I recommend a book that expresses the pain to Catholics the NOM caused. "The Devastated Vineyard" by Dietrich von Hildebrand.
If you want to reform the Novus Ordo you have to start by removing the two Jewish meal prayers and replacing the traditional offertory prayers and the old Canon. Plus the rubrics. Without the right prayers it is futile to try to reconcile the N.O to the T.L.M.
That's quite the dividing line - people who want to feel Mass to make them feel good and happy, and people who want to be transported into the supernatural reality of being in and consuming the real presence of Jesus.
The people who want to feel Mass to make them feel good and happy should attend "fellowship" in Protestant Church, not being Catholics. Being catholics have to suffer a lot for the happiness of Heaven.
i personally have totally enjoyed studying early church history. and reading and being familiar with v2 and the requisites. latin was never banned by v2 but the encouragement to the cultural vernacular to incorporate cultures from all over the world. i think , in what ever form, one really has to be spiritually involved in the purpose of going to mass
in a multicultural congregation, i agree you need some unifying forces. but outside of a major multicultural group but inside a unicultural group using local culture influences would dominate with traditional structure. personal opinion.
there is a big difference in diocesan and conventual types of masses. if you need the more prayer ful version go seek out NO at a benedictine retreat house.
Both exude tremendous temperate tenacity (intellectual virtue): traditional and teachable. In Mr Holdsworth's case, this is especially evident in his imminently prudent video whose title begins 'Anti-Pope'.
This is good. However, what is the point of the novus ordo if you celebrate it informed by the tridentine? Why not just do the tridentine with perhaps some english etc..
That’s what I keep saying! Now that trying to cosy up to Protestantism and returning to supposed earlier forms has not worked, can we just go back to the transcendent Mass that inspired so many saints? It’s even beautiful in English, or try the Sarum in English.
I had 20+ years of torture by and through the novus ordo. Don’t rescue it, just kill it. Bury it alongside 2 generations of self-appointed expert liturgists.
Does fr Dwight celebrate the ordinariate? We have it near us. The most reverent novus ordo I ve seen. Ad orientem, chant, beautiful vestments, incense. A little slice of heaven in a small scottish country church.
I live in the area. He’s not in the Ordinariate and, as far as I’m aware, hasn’t celebrated its mass or the Anglican use liturgy (two separate things). He came in under the pastoral provision. However, there is an Ordinariate community close by just over the border in NC that was started in 2020.
I think the key to it all is... That priest only need to apply that have a true calling, and to remember that this is a vocation, not a profession. Only then will they truly be serving God, and ministering to His people. From there, everything else will work itself out! God bless everyone! 💠
Fr. Blake Britton would be an interesting guest on how to reclaim Vatican2 - ie using the words Novus Ordo or TLM too loosly, may already be playing into the hands of those who want to polarize.
Any parish offering the satanic Novus Ordo, thus following the heretical counterchurch of Rome, unfortunately are heretics too because they love the money from Rome more than the true church and subsequently our Lord Jesus Christ. You can twist it all you want but ANY parish/priest performing this "2-stepping" is a heretic too!
"It’s an error to believe that Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and all men but rather that he inaugurated a religious movement adapted or to be adapted to different times and different places." St. Pope Pius X
Fr Dwight’s book Beheading Hydra is outstanding. I recommend it to everyone, have given it as gifts. He has the most sensible approach to the faith I have encountered. Thank you for bringing him on the show and for facilitating a great discussion.
“When we use the first Eucharistic prayer”… says Fr Dwight. That the rub though. I have been a Catholic for 46 of my 67 years. I have never been to a mass that used the first Eucharistic prayer and I’ve lived in many American dioceses. Almost all have been the second prayer. I’ve been told both priests and laity prefer the shorter. It’s all about keeping mass to one hour or less.
The implosion of the Faith amounts to one key fact: People don’t believe in the real presence. How we pray, how we receive, reverence towards the body&blood matters. TLM is far superior in these metrics w/o question.
Fr. Dwight is great! He welcomed us to his parish and was kind enough to allow us to interview him last year. Though I'm not Catholic myself, I can definitely say that Fr. Dwight does the Novus Ordo well. I can recommend Our Lady of the Rosary to anyone around the Greenville, SC area! - Bailey
You can go to a church like the Brompton Oratory in London and the liturgy differs so little from the Tridentine Mass that it cannot reasonably be faulted. However, this is exceptional. In practice, in most parishes I have attended, the liturgy is the subject of bitter dispute. The official instructions cannot be used as any source of consistent and coherent authority.
It might differ little on the aesthetic side of things, but the Novus Ordo, even when celebrated at the Brompton Oratory, is still quite deficient in the actual prayers, texts and rubrics. And the fact that the Novus Ordo has so many options where u can celebrate the Fr Bob Boomer Mass or the Oratorian Mass is another inherent defficiency.
@@johnhuynh9498 the Offertory is a serious problem in NO, more about gifts a day doesn't build towards the Eucharist, that then sits alone a day rather abandoned like a footnote. This then diminishes the Communion. The overwhelming sense of Grace is lost
Ah so. From the other side of the Tiber, the revisions of Anglican liturgy, which are very much in lock-step with the Novus Ordo, are seen by many people, including myelf, as a rupture with the tradition of the Church.
Having read the documents of Vatican 2 regarding the reform of the liturgy, I think people are deceiving themselves if they think the Novus Ordo aligns with the reforms the council fathers actually prescribed. The documents of the council suggest a much more "conservative" reform than what we actually got. Just looking at the text of the two masses side by side you really have to cock your head and squint through one eye to find the "continuity" there. A huge percentage of the ordinary text of the traditional mass was completely axed in the Novus Ordo. I honestly don't see how the Roman Rite Church can be reformed and revitalized without a signifant revision of the mass, calendar, and lectionary to bring the mass more closely in line with what the text of Vatican 2 actually says. A properly reformed Roman Rite would much more closely resemble the Anglican Ordinariate Mass in Divine Worship: The Missal.
Struggling in Fla: taking a stand against the local KofC in my parish. They are planning a magic show for the council Christmas Party. I’m standing up to the low information Catholic men +50 years old in the dangers of harmless “sleight of hand” magic. Advice from anyone is welcome. Pax Cristi St Francis and St Benedict pray for us Amen.
Fr Dwight, I don’t like your “so what” to the Mass development question. It seems very pertinent. How could it possibly not be? If the NO did primarily start at one point (opposed to a lengthy development) it would have to be the object of the intention of one or a few people.
I learned in seminary: "We had a council do what you want....".... thus I've done the Last Gospel at the Novus Ordo.... Frequently I have to duck tape my own missal together, using the Latin Third edition Typica for the Collects and Canon, 2011 ICEL English, taking Preface chants from the 1962 (notation not in Typica edition) and prayers of the faithful from the Ordinariate's. Ill do collects, preface, and Canon in latin but I am a big fan of the people's dialogues in the vernacular... But I am a LibTrad
It took him 9 years to transition to altar boys only … how long on average does a priest stay in the same parish? Where I am they are moved every 3 to 5 years …
The Anglican church started at the time of the Reformation, so the music from the Middle ages in England in in fact Catholic music, borrowed and taken over by the Anglican church. I am an 89 year old professional musician, once Anglican, but a Catholic now for 74 years. +
I am struck by Brian Holdsworth's deep need to have one clear "right" answer on liturgy, and Fr. Dwight Longenecker's focus on understanding the "why" of each part of the liturgy, ultimately taking us out of wanting upbeat entertainment and turning our own selfish focus toward God. Both of them agree that a beautifully conducted worship service will draw us into a sacred metaphysical space. In a brutal "views from the pews" perspective, the order of service is ink placed on paper by human beings, that has an effect that is usually not put into words. The examples of enculturation seemed very puerile when removed from their local context. Within the Anglican Communion, local variation is allowed - but the variations have to go through expert liturgical clergy committee formulation, and approval by the Provincial House of Bishops. There is an approved English translation of the liturgy used in the Province of Japan, and it does have variations from the liturgies used, for example in the US - but given the variations worldwide, they are not unique in the world. Let me mention two. First, with the Confession.. In the US it is said by clergy and congregation together, while in the Province of Japan, the celebrant leads with his confession, followed by the confession of the congregation. The second is the variations in a few of the collects and readings for specific days, where the US liturgy takes a celebratory outlook, and the Japanese collects and readings take a "walking together with those who are suffering" outlook. Brian treated "protestant" in this dialog as a condemnation of a deep sin against the Holy Spirit, utterly cast out into the darkness. Fr. Dwight Longenecker recognized the range of diversity, from Anglican church parishes which are more catholic (high church) to the free-form evangelicals preaching the prosperity gospel with no one speaking out against them (which I agree is a problem). Neither touched on the Eastern Orthodox traditions, which are also informative. (although the Russian Orthodox church is right out there with the evangelical prosperity gospel groups as outliers.) This was a good discussion, and I hope that the consciousness of all Roman Catholics can be informed of the "why" of their liturgical practices, resulting in a resolution of the difficulties.
Having wandered to protestant worship services, I find the novus ordo tweaks are an imitation of protestant worship. Sadly, the different lay ministers and choir are given way to much latitude. It's like the novus ordo was meant to be abused.
I was born in 1971 in the Philippines. My family is very religious Catholics. But the mass when I was younger (1970's to early 80's) although it's Novus Ordo is so different from the Novus Ordo of today. First, we received communion kneeling down around the rail near the altar. Then, a young male sacristan has a flat pan like metal that he would hold under the person's chin as the person was receiving the Holy Host by tongue from the priest. We also had choir accompanied by a piano organ. Most of the women also wore veils over their heads and everyone dressed up nicely, not very casual, meaning no denim jeans or t-shirts or shorts and tanktops nor flip flops. Also, I remember on the contrition, we tapped our hearts on 'grievous fault...' 3 times, and also during the, 'I'm not worthy to receive prayer, we kneel, then put our right hand on our left chest, also on the Kyrie which was always sung. I feel that there was so much reverence even though it's a Novus Ordo. Now, here in Vegas, I've been to two churches where there were no kneeling pads on the pews which means that instead of kneeling when it's supposed to, people stand up, even during the consecration and prayer before the communion and after one is returning to the seat after the communion. I moved into a new house 3 yrs. ago, so I had to move to a new parish. This parish doesn't have the Tabernacle behind the altar. Instead, it's tucked away to one area of the church. During mass, the choir is what's in the front and center, just behind the altar where the priest celebrates the mass. The choir area is even a step higher than the altar itself. Also, not even a cross is displayed on the altar except during mass, and wall above the altar is also bare. I did a Station of the Cross there this Holy Week where we sat down the entire time, no kneeling when it's appropriate like the usual Station of the Cross. Oh, and during the Ash Wednesday, the priest stood in front holding the tray of ashes but he let the people put the ashes on each other instead of him doing it. I guess he didn't want his fingers to get dirty. The priest there also remind people to not kneel down before and after receiving the communion but to stand instead. I want to kneel down to show my reverence to Jesus before and after I receive Him but the priest would remind people not to kneel down (it's also written on the large projection screen) so I stopped going to this parish and went back to my old parish even if it's a 20 minute drive from my house. All these different parish priests are doing their own thing that it's not really helping people to get closer to God, especially during mass. People are confused about how mass should be celebrated because each Parish is doing something different. It's not a surprise that newly convert people are so drawn to the Traditional Latin mass, and surprisingly more men than women too. I pray that the Holy Spirit guides all priests, bishops, and deacons and especially Pope Francis, as he too has caused more confusion, divisions, and disappointments to the flock, especially limiting the TLM. God bless you all.✝️🛐
Agreed. There was kneeling and bowing in the 90s. Now if you took out the statue of Mary from my church you wouldn’t be able to guess what denomination it is.
That’s right. I was born and raised in Madagascar. Although my family is Lutheran, my mom wanted my siblings and I to go to a Catholic school because Catholic schools usually had the best education. We used to go to mass every month in the cathedral near my school. Back then (in the 90s) I didn’t know it was a Novos Ordo Mass, but I remember it was very reverential, with kneeling at each proper time of the liturgy, choir chanting (usually translating the Latin chant in our language), piano organ and all. I loved it.
Enjoyed the discussion. Father seems like a very sincere individual.
While beauty and aesthetics do matter, I would charitably like to assert that it is a secondary issue. The fundamental critique of the New liturgy by Traditionalist since the 1970's has been its use of a New theology. The book "The Problem with the liturgical reform" does a wonderful job at explaining this.
Even though I might disagree with Father's conclusion, I admire his efforts and sincerity.
God bless you all, and save sinners.
Not just that, the blatant protestant involvement in the making of this mass is simply preposterous.
Mons Anniballe Bugninni made the perfect storm, and it worked.
Exactly right - God bless you and thank you for your comment!
NOBODY has AUTHORITY to Judge a Liturgy EXCEPT the Pope alone....So if Pope Paul VI and Pope Francis approves the liturgy, we can only OBEY and shut our mouths....
"POPE PIUS XII
It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone😎😎😎😎 enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, 😎😎😎😎as also to modify those he judges😎😎 to require modification."
-----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI...🙄🙄🙄🙄
@Krishyy Fan
In conformity with the Apostolic Constitution, Quo Primum, promulgated by Pope St. Pius V, Traditionis Custodes solidifies the Tridentine Rite as a distinct and separate Rite from the Roman Rite (TC, Art.1) and therefore establishes that the Tridentine Rite is a lawfully acknowledged Rite which enjoys equal right and dignity to all other Rites and is to be preserved for future use and fostered in every way by Holy Mother Church in accordance with Sacrosanctum Concilium of Vatican Council II (SC, Intro, par. 4).
The great thing about 'The Problem of the Liturgical Reform' is that the SSPX lays out its position and its thinking very clearly. Which has made it easy for others (even many who are highly sympathetic to Traditionalism and supportive of the TLM) to go through and identify the points where the SSPX have made wrong turns theologically. The problem is that the SSPX just tends to ignore them, or accuse them of being 'modernists'.
For example, a big issue seems to be the idea of 'sacrifice', where their arguments rely very heavily on their own idiosyncratic idea of what is a sacrifice is and should be, based on a distorted and almost protestantized understanding of St Anselm (and even though the Church has never defined the exact nature of Christ's sacrifice dogmatically).
I say this as someone who attends a TLM (for the aesthetics) and has numerous SSPX friends, and who agrees with them on most cultural (but not theological) issues
Benedict XVI is correct that there is a rupture. The Novus Ordo is the only liturgical revision foisted upon the Church by an arbitrary committee that made decisions based on accommodating Protestants. This is not hearsay - Bugnini, its architect, said as much.
Can you point me to a good book or article that explains this? It's always been explained to me that it was to make room for a more Protestant style, if the local bishop chose to tolerate it, because Protestants seemed to be attracting Catholics away from the older form (not to accommodate Protestants). Of course this view makes a liturgy committee seem less like they are imposing changes but responding to a desire on the part of the faithful. I'm no liturgist, but I think BXVI has it right in his book Spirit of the Liturgy.
🎯😔🙏
@@FrJohnBrownSJ Bugnini said that he wanted to rid the liturgy of all impediments to our “separated brethren. “ Michael Davies wrote three books on the liturgical innovations and the Council and there is an excellent book by a historian , “The great betrayal” by Hugh Ross Williamson (I think Angelus press).
NOBODY has AUTHORITY to Judge a Liturgy EXCEPT the Pope alone....So if Pope Paul VI and Pope Francis approves the liturgy, we can only OBEY and shut our mouths....
"POPE PIUS XII
. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone😎😎😎😎 enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, 😎😎😎😎as also to modify those he judges😎😎 to require modification."
-----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI
@@FrJohnBrownSJ The problem of the Liturgical Reform Father Álvaro Calderón FSSPX
20:50 "Why don't all of our priests in seminary learn how to celebrate the Extraordinary Form as a basis for how they celebrate the Novus Ordo?"
Ad orientem forbidden this year beginning in Chicago and spreads:
Chicago (Jan., 2022)
Diocese of Venice (Jan., 2022)
Diocese of Erie (Jan., 2022)
Diocese of Lexington (Feb. 2022)
The theological attention is different, the focus of the NO is on the meal aspect, the celebration, the "party" aspect. The TLM focus is the Sacrifice, the pain, the effort, the penance, aspect. I see it like the parable of the Prodigal Son; the NO is the party celebrated for the lost son that came back, and the TLM is the sacrifice of the lamb made for the prodigal son.
The older son (TLM) gets angry at the rebel son (NO) because the rebel son doesn't see the sacrifice behind the party, at the same time the rebel son is angry at the older son because he doesn't understand the sacrifice that took going into the wilderness, lose everything and then humble himself to comeback.
@Rachel James Yup, the thing is that they are both different in principles, it's not the same, at consecration the same thing happens but on every other level it's just not the same, so it doesn't really matter how you implement it both masses will point to a different theological aspect.
When that ad for Saintmaker started playing, I thought he was referring to the Old Mass. The original Saint Maker, as it were.
Read "Devastated Vineyard" by Dietrich Von Hildebrand plus "The Rhine flows into Tiber"
.... on the day NO goes to adore the Lord Ad Orientem while stopping hand communion altogether, then we'll be able to think of a rescuing mission. Until then attend the Traditional Latin Mass
Hey, guys I'm trying to rally support around a young lady named Emily Flaherty. She's a faithful Catholic singer and musician who composes truly original and beautiful music. I had the privilege of meeting her in person and was floored when I heard her sing. It's so hard to find Catholic music that isn't terrible, or that doesn't follow a predictable, cheesy, protestant, praise and worship blueprint. Her music is a breath of fresh air for sure.
Thank you! Found she had some stuff on Amazon Music so I put it in my library. I’m always on the hunt for good Catholic music since I come from Protestantism and had to abandon a lot of that music because my eye were opened to some that were completely heretical and other that were simply theologically weak and made Jesus into nothing more than a boyfriend. I listen to a lot of old stuff as a result, but am always seeking new artists to enjoy. So again, thank you!
@@sarahsunshine78 My pleasure. I really can't recommend her enough. My only complaint is that I wish she had more music. Half of the views she has on her videos are probably my wife, kids, and me. 😂 I'm a singer as well and it's very hard for me to find Catholic music that I actually enjoy. Needless to say, I was beyond thrilled when I found her. I find her music really unique and charming. There's a child-like innocence; even playfulness at times, that I really enjoy. Her music sounds like it should be in a Studio Ghibli movie. I met her at a retreat with Vigil in New Orleans and she's such a shy and soft spoken person that my jaw must have hit the floor when I first saw her perform. I really hope more people find her and she's encouraged to continue to compose and perform for the Lord and the Church.
Link?
@@matthewnichol2560 You can also just search her name, she has all her music here.
@@matthewnichol2560 Everytime I post her link its deleted.
I live in the Diocese of Wichita, KS. Our priests study at several different seminaries. I have noticed that you can always identify a priest who studied at the Pontifical College Josephinum because of the reverence they celebrate the liturgy. The sad part is that many of today's Catholics want shorter Masses and vocally reject the beauty of a Mass said reverently according to the Roman Missal without taking every shorter option. What you both say is so very true, I agree with Fr. Longenecker.
In my area years ago there were two Roman Catholic priests at different churches that had short 8:00 or 8:30 morning masses that got the message across in that time.
The Novus ordos Theological premise and purpose was to center on man, and to reduce the central mystery of our faith which is the pascal mystery and propitious nature of the sacrifice of Calvary represented on our altar. This can not be removed with out dismantling the Novus Ordo.
How you figure?
The intent of Annibal Bugnini the architect of the new Mass consulted with a council of catholic theologians as well as protestant ministers. The intent was to make a mass that was less offensive to Protestant Christians because the aim of the council was unification of all Christians. This is why ecumenism changed from those of the one Catholic faith separated by regions to all people of the world. The input from the protestant ministers was to inform Bugnini on how certain prayers and gestures emphasize too much the reality of Calvary being present on our altar compared to the memorilization of the supper. Thus this is why the prayers at the foot of the Altar were removed and other prayers that emphasized the propitious nature of the Mass itself. Making our altars tables and turning the priest around is exactly what Bishop Cramner instituted to de-catechize the English Catholics from believing the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One cannot BOTH present the reality of the sacrifice of Calvary on our Altar and also reduce its emphasis and propitious nature. That is like serving God and Mammon.
@@minorityvoice9253 well the turning the alter around and having the mass in the vernacular cannot be the source of the loss of faith in Christ's real presence in the Eucharist. First off the Church felt that it needed to reform the liturgy precisely because most of the laity had no idea what was happening during the mass and why they were coming every Sunday. Having a priest facing away from the people and quietly uttering words in Latin makes it difficult to consciously and spiritually participate in the mass. Second the decent in the percentage of Catholics that attended mass every Sunday in western countries started in the 1940s. Pope Pius XII himself talked about a need for a reform. Third, from my speaking the those who attend the TLM many like to attribute there belief in the sacrifice and real presence to the TLM but when I talk to them for real it not the mass itself responsible for that but a mere explanation and an education of the mass.
One good thing that has come from trying to draw in protestants has been the increase use of Biblical scripture during the mass, particularly in the lectionary. Read Scott and Kimbelry Hahn's "Rome Sweet Home". It's the story of their conversion to the Catholic church. Had the first mass that he attended been entirely in Latin there is a good chance that he would have never converted to the Catholic church. He also talks about how pleasantly surprised he was about how filled with scripture the mass was. Scott Hahn now say's that he is unaware of any Christian denomination that reads as wide a variety of scripture on as a consistent basis as the Catholic church.
P.S I know you didn't bring up Latin vs vernacular but it all ties in together.
@@maciejpieczula631 the lack of faith after v2 mass. The collapse of morals in the west. And where we are now. When God will return, he will tear them to pieces like our lord Jesus said in the Bible.
@@bweatherman3345 and you are really convinced that this is all because of the changes to the mass?
I went through RCIA about 15 years ago in Greenville SC with Fr Dwight! What a blessing he is.
I do not know how we as the Church Catholic can honestly look at the fact of the 1970 missal sharing only 17% of the prayers of the Tridentine Mass, and not see it as blatant rupture.
I don't know who proposes this percentage - but it is clearly false. Put the two texts side by side, and there's definitely nowhere near an 83% difference. When you look at the texts side by side that is clearly a false statement. The only way you could possibly get there is to include the lectionary (which is dumb - how can anyone complain we now read too much bible in church?)
If only ONE was taken away, that is too much.
@@admiralbob77 I am happy to be proven wrong, although I actually object to more bible = automatically better.
If badly placed or badly chosen readings obfuscate the worship in the liturgy then their presence is not necessarily better than their absence.
@@leejennifercorlewayres9193 Boy, then you should hate the council of Trent. Because it was as big a renewal as Vatican II was, and a lot of devotional traditions were removed from the mass.
@@admiralbob77 Devotional traditions come and go, but when you substantially change the mass in a way that it becomes utter unrecognizable, rupture is inevitable.
Personally I prefer ad orientum,
With a mix of Latin and vernacular.
With incense and all.🕊️🙏
This topic is by far the most perplexing and overwhelming topic in the Catholic Church for me.
Good talk, now get an SSPX priest on and have your own challenging conversation with someone on “that side of things”. Just a thought though, your the boss of your own channel :) Pax.
Aren’t they a schismatic clergy not in communion with Rome though? Please correct me if I’m wrong because I heard conflicting information (surprise surprise) ….
@@CatholicsForTrump according to Rome, they're in an irregular communion. My SSPX chapel has a respectful picture of Francis in the vestibule
@@CatholicsForTrump Maybe the reference was meant to be the FSSP (Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter)?
Amen they really have an honest and complete clarity and put their money where their mouth is. They are real loyal sons of the church
@@CatholicsForTrump No they are not but are persecuted for their loyalty to the Mass and the faith . They refused Rome out of desperate necessity thanks to them we have the Mass . They have an irregular position
I appreciate that you pushed back on some of his statements. While I generally like Father Longnecker every time I hear him, he must realize that his stance is one the current Pope doesn't want to continue. Benedict was all for this idea of reforming the reform, and making sure there was no rupture. Francis has thrown off that idea totally and his favorite bishops/cardinals are making sure to follow his marching orders (see Chicago).
The fact that we even have a discussion about multiple Eucharistic prayers, and one being written EXPLICITLY to please protestants is just mind boggling to me. I'm a convert from Anglicanism as well - and it was confusing as heck for me and my family to understand that the same words and actions in the Catholic church were valid, and in the Anglican church across the street they were not ..bc they look the SAME (NO and Anglican service).
I was also a little confused about his use of the word Eucharist when speaking of Anglican and Lutherans as well. They don't have the Eucharist. They might have "communion" but they don't have the actual Eucharist. At least not in the way we use the word - to refer to the real presence.
One last thing that jumped out at me, was the discussion of priestly formation. If Fr admits that no priests are getting this sort of education that is necessary...then his ideas seem dead in the water. The changes in his parish are a blip on the map and in time. We have had one pastor for 10y and he's renovated our parish to bring back the traditional elements, worked to more reverent worship - and now we are getting a new pastor and we are rightly worried. Changes tend to go the wrong direction many times with priest change over.
I enjoyed this interview a lot and love the gracious and humble way you speak with guests, while still making strong points.
Benedict and JPII are to blame for the pushing through and implementing of the satanic Novus Ordo, the demonic, sacrilegious changes to the mass and both of the lifelong buddies were in the front row and facilitators of the ABOMINATIONS OF ASSISI. So stop idolizing Benedict just because in his old age he "seemed" to return to tradition. He most certainly didn't otherwise he would have declared the Vatican II heresies for Null and void. Yet he didn't!
A minor point, but customarily, members of religious orders or societies (including priests) are called by their first name (Brother/ Father Aidan) and secular or diocesan priests are referred to by their last name (Father Smith).
Is that so? I've never heard of this. My experience is that priests in parishes are often Fr. First but in schools it's Fr. Last, making me nearly always Fr. Brown though I am a religious priest. I wonder if you picked up on your idea from hearing religious call each other Bro First or something similar. In any case, call me whatever.
@@FrJohnBrownSJ I was a Benedictine monk for twenty years and using the first name is not only the custom among monastics but also at the houses of studies pf other religious orders that I stayed, including Sant'Anselmo in Rome. It is also the custom among mendicant friars as well. Likewise, when I did parish mission work in dioceses it was common practice for the diocesan priest to use his last name with Father or Monsignor unless he told his parishioners otherwise. Perhaps the Jesuits have a different custom. Admittedly my contact with Jesuits has been limited usually to liturgical conferences where we were all using first names and the topic never came up.
@@mattmackmack9173 Interesting! So I guess my question would be if there is some tangible source for this custom. I can't remember reading this for myself, but I was told that Saint Ignatius preferred no titles be used between priests in-house for the Society of Jesus. However, lay students called priests Father Last, brothers Brother Last, and scholastics Mister Last.
@@FrJohnBrownSJ Ar one time, most religious orders and dioceses produced "consuetudines" or a book of customs that would have covered such topics as forms of address, dress and other protocols. However, I think most of these have either been radically simplified or discontinued altogether. I have seen some sites online concerning forms of address and protocol but honestly most of them have some accurate info but other info borders on the specious.
Over the centuries, there has often been
some tension of distinction between religious order clergy and secular or diocesan clergy. This has taken on a variety
of forms depending on the era and country. Other times there have been efforts (often by civil authorities) to blur or minimize the distinctions,
For example, in Germany with the 19th century restoration of Benedictine monastic life in Bavaria, monks wore detachable
hoods or cowls as part of their habit and still do. When out of the cloister and in
public, monks were required by law to remove the cowl so they would be indistinguishable from the diocesan or secular clergy because of the socio-cultural
sentiment at the time. I am not certain, but I believe forms of address of clergy might
also have been altered at the time. These protocols of course, have become largely
miscellaneous issues in present day Catholic life in Germany. There were times when I was in Bavaria with other Benedictines and we wore street clothes while touring places like Munich.
@ 41:05 Absolutely we should have longer terms for pastors. In my diocese it is about 6 years and that's really not long enough to start any new project. Every priest who comes to my parish so far have been good, but most are simply waiting to be transferred to the next parish. Imagine the good they could do if they had as much time as the Cure d'Ars.
Your Lucky ,
Our parish priest has changed 5 times in 10 years.
@@lonniestoute8762 That's nuts !
Thanks Brian for Fr Longenecker ..... Great Guest .. and Great Video, I've learned so much !!
Regarding the topic of inculturation, it is interesting to note the experience of the beloved and respected missionary priest to the tribes of the American mountain west, Fr. Pierre DeSmet. He brought the gospel to the Flatheads, Snakes, Nez Perces, and Pend d'Oreille tribes in the 1840's, and reported that they loved the music and the seriousness of the ceremonies he conducted. Here is a touching excerpt from De Smet's Letters and Sketches: The altar was placed on an elevation, and surrounded with boughs and garlands of flowers; I addressed the congregation in French and in English, and spoke also by an interpreter to the Flat-head and Snake Indians. It was a spectacle truly moving for the heart of a Missionary, to behold an assembly composed of so many different nations, who all assisted at our holy mysteries with great satisfaction.
- The Canadians sung hymns in French and Latin, and the Indians in their native tongue. It was truly a Catholic worship. . . . This place has been called since that time, by the French Canadians, la prairie de la Messe.
Absolutely Fr. Longnecker this is what’s going on and it’s causing so much drama we’re looking so horrible in the world
Thanks! Totally agree with so much of this. We definitely have an "ism" problem.
Man, you know this delightful conversation really made me think about how I as a young Catholic try to appropriate my Faith to the videogame culture and community that I've grown up around, or rather the ways in which I must let the Catholic tradition be the primary driver and director of my life, not those lesser cultural modes of communication and action.
Brian's experience with the norvus ordo is kinda crazy. None of the norvus ordo masses I've ever been to have some sort of rock youth group choir lol. Then again, I'm still young. I should just be happy all the Norvus Ordo masses I've been to have been solemn and beautiful.
same, there MIGHT have been a cringe-ish song here or there, but aside from that I've fortunately never experienced any serious liturgical abuses first hand either. I'm hoping the younger gens continue to grow past the liturgy wars and focus on bigger issues at hand
@@playrpaul8556 I do think there’s hope there.
What general area are you located in? I'm in a major US city where most of the NO, in the city and in the metro area, are your typical garish music and felt banner type NO masses. I get the feeling that your experience, a solemn NO, isn't the norm across the US.
@@TickleMeElmo55 I have that feeling as well. When I’ve been to NO masses in the US, they were completely normal like every other NO around the world, but I’ve heard news and seem some pictures of…less desireable masses. I don’t live in the states.
Hate is not strong enough of a word for what I felt when they ceased using the organ in my childhood Catholic Church and brought in guitars and drums. Perhaps sheer disgust, revulsion.
I love the Novus Ordo Mass and find it quite beautiful. I feel blessed that my church has a traditional (and non-abused) Novus Ordo, I feel for you who don’t have that, or a TLM nearby :-/
What kills me about this discussion is noone discusses the intent of the architects of the Mass. This has to be central to the arguments of the effectiveness and validity of the Theological purpose of the new mass.
read scarosanctum concilium.
NOBODY has AUTHORITY to Judge a Liturgy EXCEPT the Pope alone....So if Pope Paul VI and Pope Francis approves the liturgy, we can only OBEY and shut our mouths....
"POPE PIUS XII
It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone😎😎😎😎 enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, 😎😎😎😎as also to modify those he judges😎😎 to require modification."
-----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI...🙄🙄
@@krishyyfan5153well said. Obedience whether you like it or not, otherwise you’re no better than Martin Luther.
@@GMLFire That says nothing of if whether or not the layman can have an opinion on the matter. Luther objected to Church doctrine; rites of the mass isn't doctrine of the faith.
A very informative interview. Thank you Brian and Fr. Twight.
All that I know is that I I have fallen in love with Jesus at the TLM. That never happened at the NO. It was not the "bells and whistles " - in fact, it took me a while to settle in at the TLM. Now, this is a love that I know can never be taken away.
Can u see and experience The important parts of Holy Mass in TLM ?
like words of institution,
invocation of Holy Spirit etc like in Novus Ordo...
I believe in Novus Ordo the Royal Priesthood of Laity is more celebrated ,
we can see experience Holy Mass just like desciples of Jesus Did...
@@MelchizedekVision I would rather have God centered worship. It is not about me...my experience. There is something inherent in the TLM worship that allows/enables myself and many others to fall in love with Jesus - and that is what I have been longing and waiting for. That love had changed my life forever.
Other question - how much of a positive impact did the Liturgical movement have on the shaping of the Liturgy? Here I am assuming that Pius XII 1947 Mediator Dei - a long encyclical letter on the Liturgy - lays the foundations for the Vatican II Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concillium
I'm only 10 minutes in and this is SO helpful to me. I have a dilemma at the moment about choosing a Catholic church to go to each week. My local church - 8 mins walk - is a 1970s monstrosity with agonising Novus Ordo worship. I also have a Victorian Benedictine Abbey (formerly Franciscan Friary) chapel available 15 minutes drive away. I prefer the chapel - for many reasons. But I felt like I was "cheating" by not sticking with my parish. The idea that liturgy is more or less TRUE has helped me find some peace around a decision to stick with the Benedictines. Thank you.
Why would anyone want to worship another way than the way most saints did?
My question is this: is it still the Mass? Or is it just that you don’t like certain presentations or forms and that that leads some to determine that unless its done in the way they prefer or deem official then it’s not the Mass.
It seems that the latter is the issue.
Brian, crux question 24:30. Father's answer "so what" is inadequate. A rebuttal is "because unless that committee was the 12 Apostles, Catholics have no business celebrating or attending it."
I've assisted at NOs celebrated as the Church intends (in accord with Tradition). And of course I've assisted at the NO celebrated in a "Calvinist" manner. Even when celebrated well, the NO stands pauper before the TLM....I think because the TLM encourages the spirit of contemplation. The NO cannot tolerate contemplation.
Traditionis custodes made me a Latin Mass advocate. That said I currently go to a NO vigil mass on Saturday and enjoy a Diocese TLM Sunday afternoon at 5:00. I can’t stop the Pope from killing the TLM which seems to be his plan. When he does I hope the TLM will survive in some form of an underground or home church. If it does I’ll attend both as I do now.
do you still have your diocese tlm?
@@JEC2007 Yes. Thank God our Bishop is very supportive of the Latin Mass and our priests are amazing. God bless them.
@SanctusPaulus-ic5gl Yes the vigil mass is considered a Sunday mass so it fulfills the Sunday obligation. As far as I know you can go to mass as many times you want to any given Sunday but you can only receive the Eucharist once. I don’t know if there is a rule that says you can only go to a vigil mass if you can’t make it to a Sunday mass.
Father Longnecker disputes the claim of ‘rupture’ by the Novus Ordo but both Pope Francis and Archbishop Roche have said that it is incompatible with the traditional Latin Mass. On any analysis, that is a rupture. I understand Father Longnecker’s position of trying to make the Novus Ordo respectful and the best it can be to truly worship our God. He is obviously a beautiful caring priest. And it is true what he says - the liturgy has developed at certain stages but it was always an organic development. He is defending the Novus Ordo in the way that I believed until I became a regular traditional Mass goer and discovered how the Mass catechised me. Now I realise that they are different- not just in superficial aspects, but fundamentally. The Novus Ordo was imposed solely on the authority of Paul VI as Pope. It did not develop organically. It was designed by a committee of Bugnini with Protestant advisers 5 years after the Council. The traditional Mass dates from the 5th century and the Canon, according to Pope Pius V, from Apostolic times. Traditionis Custodes caused me to examine the two forms of liturgy and the Novus Ordo is not the same as the traditional Mass. The Novus Ordo incorporated changes to the Catholic Mass that were introduced by Thomas Cranmer during the English reformation. I used to attend both but since Traditionis Custodes, I will not attend the Novus Ordo. It is true that a faithful Catholic will see the Novus Ordo as similar but there are so many ambiguities that another person can interpret fundamental theological differences in a different understanding. The traditional Mass has completely enriched my life - it is a treasure. To take it away is vandalism.
God bless Fr. Longenecker. I truly believe he is a good priest trying his best to grow in holiness and follow Jesus. However, I have to disagree with a number of things he said in this video. For example, what happens to his parish when he eventually does leave? What he has built in 10+ years might be swept away in less than 10 months (I've seen this happen several times where I live). The Novus Ordo is often death by options. And the next priest might very well choose differently. Secondly, does Father realize that his parish and the reverent NO Mass he celebrates is a "unicorn". The vast majority of Catholics cannot, and never will, be able to attend such "unicorn" Masses. And the problem with options mentioned above guarantee this. Third, do we, or do we not believe the Holy Ghost has guided the Church over the past 2,000 years? If the Holy Ghost has guided the Church and its development, why would we brag about going back to older and earlier forms of worship and liturgical prayers? Why would we abandon liturgical developments guided and protected by the Holy Ghost? Why would we suddenly gut the liturgy and try to use what was earlier as cover? Acorns to oaks, not oaks to acorns. Finally, despite what you might think, you're not making a good case for the NO when you talk about making it more like the TLM. Imagine I could choose Pizza A or Pizza B. I choose Pizza A, but then busy myself trying to make it look like and taste like Pizza B. Why not just order Pizza B in the first place? And none of this even begins to touch the watered down, protestantized theology present in the NO. To Fr. Longenecker's credit, I applaud him for bringing up a couple of times in the video the distorted and even clueless notions people have regarding the Mass.
I used to be a "reform of the reform" guy myself, but at some point, people need to accept the reforms were a failure. Continuing to prop up a corpse, and pretend that you can bring it back to life, is only causing more harm. The reality of our situation needs to be acknowledged. And no, I don't believe everything would be magically better if the TLM was suddenly reinstated everywhere. In fact, I readily acknowledge it would cause pain in many places. The disease has been left to spread and fester for too long, and there is no magic bullet at this point. Any remedy taken at this point is going to cause pain.
I think your analysis is spot on Matt. It is the choice that is allowed and encouraged within the Mass that is the problem, even if a good priest can make the better choice regarding sacredness and reverence. The choice has already been made by the tradition of the Church, though lots of discernment and scrutiny. If I were a priest, I would feel unworthy of the choice, say, of Eucharistic prayer 1, 2 or 3 etc.
I agree with your analysis on the liturgy.
But the problems in the liturgy are a symptom of the loss of Faith.
The NO exists because very simply the hierarchy has largely abandoned The Faith.
You are correct that just reinstating the TLM won’t fix the problem because the TLM expresses a religion that the large majority of the faithful & hierarchy no longer believes.
We need a huge restoration of both Faith ( morals & doctrine) & then the liturgy will follow & people will accept the TLM as a natural , logical , restoration.
Spot on. Most Catholics get their catechism at Sunday Mass. The TLM is a powerful start. The Church has to go back to basics. My wife is a catechist at our parish school for Catholic children not attending the school. I asked her if she was teaching about heaven and hell to her 6th graders and she said no because the Dir of Catechism said it might scare the kids. Huh? Something wrong here. I also agree that Vatican II shifted our focus from God to man which is at the heart of the Church's problems today.
I follow a practical path. The liturgical reform is simply not working, not fit for purpose. Therefore, let's move beyond it in humility and truth.
As a convert to the Catholic faith...I started in the NO Mass, i had no idea....now that we have joined the Ordinariate Catholic Church in our area, I feel robbed. The tradition and beauty truly takes a lifetime to learn and appreciate. After being treated like garbage and not able to attend the NO Mass when covid hit.....It was a blessing. We are now going as a family, and never struggle to get our family of seven to Mass. Our children love the layered beauty and tradition and all the smells and bells, complete with Latin prayers in the confessional.
We hope to never leave, and our community is there as Catholics 'On Purpose'.
Why bother when it's objectively inferior?
Love that "objectively". Brilliantly nuanced.
According to Missale Romanum (1969), how much latitude do individual priests/bishops/cardinals have in ‘adapting’ the form of the mass?
The Phrase: “The Mystery of Faith” between the two Rites is an ABSOLUTE RUPTURE from Sacred Tradition in Novus Ordo Mass. There is NO continuity there.
Father is not listening to you Bryan. You said the best the unicorn corn Nova's order mass was completely different than the traditional Latin mass and you're absolutely correct
He did listen, he just did not agree. He said that his Mass is quite close to the Extraordinary Form in atmosphere. Do you assert that he is lying?
@@tiagorodrigues3730 no I suppose you are right he just disagrees. But it seemed to me the priest really wasn't paying attention to what Brian said.
Dear Mr. Holdsworth,
The easiest answer to your initial question is simply this: In the New World (at least) Diocesan clergy were/are traditionally addressed as Father (Last name) and Religious Clergy by Father (first name). This was due to the practice of religious changing their names (or receiving a new name assigned by the superiors of their religious congregation) when they took their vows - while secular or diocesan clergy did not do this. There is more to it than this, but this explanation is the simplest way to understand it. Since religious do not ordinarily change their names or have them changed for them after the Vatican 2 reforms of religious life, the proper distinctions in the practice of addressing clergy has become somewhat opaque. Hope this helps.
This was an enlightening discussion. The 'resourcement' agenda led to the removal of high altars and the use of a table in its place. Father Dwight's suggestion of seminarians being trained in the Old Rite is dead in the water because of Pope Francis' motu proprio 'Traditionis custodes' and the Vatican's subsequent publication of the 'Explanatory document'. The latter document further restricts the use and teaching of this rite.
I love the Ordinary Form, hearing the readings and gospels in English (which I usually don't at the TLM church I attend once a week). I love the communal hymns, people saying the creed aloud, communal responses rather than just the altar boys racing through the responses in Latin, and hearing a homily every single time the Word is proclaimed. I go to an FSSP mass once a week because I have a son with Autism who needs quiet and structure.
You don’t get English readings in the Traditional Liturgy? I’ve never seen that. In many years.
@@readmore4178At fssp and icksp churches, readings are typically in Latin. At diocesan Latin masses it has to be vernacular
The good news is that you will always have the Ordinary Form to attend, while I would have to drive four hours to get to a Greek Catholic or Tridentine Mass. I do attend the local Ordinary Form Mass as a result, but (due to cringe-worthy abuses) I have to chew on a stick to get through it.
Our family attends both Masses. We see the radical differences between the communities. Many, if not most, of the Novus Ordo community do not have the Catholic faith. The correlation is near universal. There is no future for the Novus Ordo Mass.
It is a relic of the Western 1960s, an effort to appeal to a culture long over and gone.
How saintly you must be to see into the hearts of others and judge if they “have the Catholic faith”.
I attend both masses each week. I don't see any difference in faith between the two communities.
Oh I admit I'm the last person I know who will make it to heaven. But the statistical fact is that most Novus Ordo Catholics do not believe in the fundamentals of Catholic faith. Lack of faith in the true presence and attendance at confession are the biggest indicators. Also, most Catholics believe contraception is morally acceptable. Most Catholics do not attend Mass. There is also a continued decline of baptisms and marriages for the Novu Ordo community. This is why I said it has no future. The traditional community is experiencing the opposite numbers. Increase in baptism, marriage, vocations, etc.
I am so thankful and blessed to live in Greenville SC..We have some great priests here!
Trying to make the NO reverent and resemble a TLM is like being offered a Quattro Stagioni and a Margherita by a waiter, ordering the Margherita but then adding additional toppings to make it almost like a Quattro Stagioni.
Also, the crisis of Faith we're experiencing in the Church is more that just the Mass. The most reverent NO will always be inferior to a TLM. It does not profess the Faith, it deliberately undermines it.
God bless you both, but I disagree there was no rupture. I am 68 years and remember the TLM. I left the Faith for a long time after being turned off by the NOM as a teen. I came back and was on fire for a time till I witnessed heresy in homilies of a new theology that accompanies the NOM. I was a cantor in a NO parish for several years. I left the NOM parish and eventually found the TLM parish I now attend. I recommend a book that expresses the pain to Catholics the NOM caused. "The Devastated Vineyard" by Dietrich von Hildebrand.
If you want to reform the Novus Ordo you have to start by removing the two Jewish meal prayers and replacing the traditional offertory prayers and the old Canon. Plus the rubrics. Without the right prayers it is futile to try to reconcile the N.O to the T.L.M.
"The Catholic Church has always been in a state of crisis." Good to know/remember.
I don't know what this novus ordo is anymore today
Excellent programme Brian,very interesting.
Good interview.
That's quite the dividing line - people who want to feel Mass to make them feel good and happy, and people who want to be transported into the supernatural reality of being in and consuming the real presence of Jesus.
The people who want to feel Mass to make them feel good and happy should attend "fellowship" in Protestant Church, not being Catholics. Being catholics have to suffer a lot for the happiness of Heaven.
Brian, are you still posting on Rumble???
This is excellent. Thanks!
i personally have totally enjoyed studying early church history. and reading and being familiar with v2 and the requisites. latin was never banned by v2 but the encouragement to the cultural vernacular to incorporate cultures from all over the world. i think , in what ever form, one really has to be spiritually involved in the purpose of going to mass
in a multicultural congregation, i agree you need some unifying forces. but outside of a major multicultural group but inside a unicultural group using local culture influences would dominate with traditional structure. personal opinion.
there is a big difference in diocesan and conventual types of masses. if you need the more prayer ful version go seek out NO at a benedictine retreat house.
Both exude tremendous temperate tenacity (intellectual virtue): traditional and teachable. In Mr Holdsworth's case, this is especially evident in his imminently prudent video whose title begins 'Anti-Pope'.
Great novus ordo.service try st marys cathedral Sydney.
This is good. However, what is the point of the novus ordo if you celebrate it informed by the tridentine? Why not just do the tridentine with perhaps some english etc..
That’s what I keep saying! Now that trying to cosy up to Protestantism and returning to supposed earlier forms has not worked, can we just go back to the transcendent Mass that inspired so many saints? It’s even beautiful in English, or try the Sarum in English.
I had 20+ years of torture by and through the novus ordo. Don’t rescue it, just kill it. Bury it alongside 2 generations of self-appointed expert liturgists.
Does fr Dwight celebrate the ordinariate? We have it near us. The most reverent novus ordo I ve seen. Ad orientem, chant, beautiful vestments, incense. A little slice of heaven in a small scottish country church.
I live in the area. He’s not in the Ordinariate and, as far as I’m aware, hasn’t celebrated its mass or the Anglican use liturgy (two separate things). He came in under the pastoral provision.
However, there is an Ordinariate community close by just over the border in NC that was started in 2020.
I think the key to it all is...
That priest only need to apply that have a true calling, and to remember that this is a vocation, not a profession.
Only then will they truly be serving God, and ministering to His people.
From there, everything else will work itself out!
God bless everyone! 💠
Fr. Blake Britton would be an interesting guest on how to reclaim Vatican2 - ie using the words Novus Ordo or TLM too loosly, may already be playing into the hands of those who want to polarize.
Don’t “save” the Novus Ordo. Abolish it.
The Canons Regular of St. Cantius in Chicago offer both the TLM and the NO splendidly. Live streamed every Sunday. Praise God.
Are you wearing or have worn the Demonic Mask to Mass. And complied with the Demonic Restictions?
St Cantius is great! I travelled there for TLM on sundays while i was studying at uchicago
Any parish offering the satanic Novus Ordo, thus following the heretical counterchurch of Rome, unfortunately are heretics too because they love the money from Rome more than the true church and subsequently our Lord Jesus Christ. You can twist it all you want but ANY parish/priest performing this "2-stepping" is a heretic too!
Mass needs to be HOLY. Nuff said!
"It’s an error to believe that Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and all men but rather that he inaugurated a religious movement adapted or to be adapted to different times and different places." St. Pope Pius X
I REALLY APPRECIATE THIS!
Fr Dwight’s book Beheading Hydra is outstanding. I recommend it to everyone, have given it as gifts. He has the most sensible approach to the faith I have encountered. Thank you for bringing him on the show and for facilitating a great discussion.
“When we use the first Eucharistic prayer”… says Fr Dwight. That the rub though. I have been a Catholic for 46 of my 67 years. I have never been to a mass that used the first Eucharistic prayer and I’ve lived in many American dioceses. Almost all have been the second prayer. I’ve been told both priests and laity prefer the shorter. It’s all about keeping mass to one hour or less.
@@AA-yk7ki So does mine but only on special days like the Assumption, Pentecost, Easter vigil, etc.
You are absolutely correct. Everyone uses the second rite, which is totally vacuous.
I attend that same kind of mass, it's perfect
Fantastic interview.
The implosion of the Faith amounts to one key fact: People don’t believe in the real presence. How we pray, how we receive, reverence towards the body&blood matters. TLM is far superior in these metrics w/o question.
Fr. Dwight is great! He welcomed us to his parish and was kind enough to allow us to interview him last year. Though I'm not Catholic myself, I can definitely say that Fr. Dwight does the Novus Ordo well. I can recommend Our Lady of the Rosary to anyone around the Greenville, SC area!
- Bailey
If a person is not a Catholic a not gone to a so reverent Novus Ordo Mass as a baseline to compare it to.
You can go to a church like the Brompton Oratory in London and the liturgy differs so little from the Tridentine Mass that it cannot reasonably be faulted. However, this is exceptional. In practice, in most parishes I have attended, the liturgy is the subject of bitter dispute. The official instructions cannot be used as any source of consistent and coherent authority.
It might differ little on the aesthetic side of things, but the Novus Ordo, even when celebrated at the Brompton Oratory, is still quite deficient in the actual prayers, texts and rubrics. And the fact that the Novus Ordo has so many options where u can celebrate the Fr Bob Boomer Mass or the Oratorian Mass is another inherent defficiency.
@@johnhuynh9498 the Offertory is a serious problem in NO, more about gifts a day doesn't build towards the Eucharist, that then sits alone a day rather abandoned like a footnote. This then diminishes the Communion. The overwhelming sense of Grace is lost
Ah so. From the other side of the Tiber, the revisions of Anglican liturgy, which are very much in lock-step with the Novus Ordo, are seen by many people, including myelf, as a rupture with the tradition of the Church.
Same with the Lutheran Divine Service.
An interesting interview.
This was really wonderful and enlihgtenin.
Loved it.
Having read the documents of Vatican 2 regarding the reform of the liturgy, I think people are deceiving themselves if they think the Novus Ordo aligns with the reforms the council fathers actually prescribed. The documents of the council suggest a much more "conservative" reform than what we actually got. Just looking at the text of the two masses side by side you really have to cock your head and squint through one eye to find the "continuity" there. A huge percentage of the ordinary text of the traditional mass was completely axed in the Novus Ordo.
I honestly don't see how the Roman Rite Church can be reformed and revitalized without a signifant revision of the mass, calendar, and lectionary to bring the mass more closely in line with what the text of Vatican 2 actually says. A properly reformed Roman Rite would much more closely resemble the Anglican Ordinariate Mass in Divine Worship: The Missal.
The 60s folk really can’t get it !
He’s right, instead of moving Protestant denominations towards Roman Catholicism, they moved us toward Protestantism
Struggling in Fla: taking a stand against the local KofC in my parish. They are planning a magic show for the council Christmas Party. I’m standing up to the low information Catholic men +50 years old in the dangers of harmless “sleight of hand” magic. Advice from anyone is welcome. Pax Cristi St Francis and St Benedict pray for us Amen.
Nice interview! is your guest a married priest using the pastoral provision?
I am glad that Fr. Longenecker strengthens the Church.
Fr Dwight, I don’t like your “so what” to the Mass development question. It seems very pertinent. How could it possibly not be? If the NO did primarily start at one point (opposed to a lengthy development) it would have to be the object of the intention of one or a few people.
Why can’t the traditional Mass be distorted like the bastardised one? That’s the problem
Thank you Father. Love your book, Beheading Hydra: A Radical Plan for Christians.
The title of this video was the whole goal of PBXVI. Maybe he should come back and finish the job.
I learned in seminary: "We had a council do what you want....".... thus I've done the Last Gospel at the Novus Ordo....
Frequently I have to duck tape my own missal together, using the Latin Third edition Typica for the Collects and Canon, 2011 ICEL English, taking Preface chants from the 1962 (notation not in Typica edition) and prayers of the faithful from the Ordinariate's. Ill do collects, preface, and Canon in latin but I am a big fan of the people's dialogues in the vernacular... But I am a LibTrad
It took him 9 years to transition to altar boys only … how long on average does a priest stay in the same parish? Where I am they are moved every 3 to 5 years …
in Australia is true there are just few old ladies in church I wonder what happened to man ?
The Anglican church started at the time of the Reformation, so the music from the Middle ages in England in in fact Catholic music, borrowed and taken over by the Anglican church. I am an 89 year old professional musician, once Anglican, but a Catholic now for 74 years. +
The respect we pay to a priest should reflect the respect we pay to Christ Himself.
3 Hail Marys for you 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻 and for Father 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻
I am struck by Brian Holdsworth's deep need to have one clear "right" answer on liturgy, and Fr. Dwight Longenecker's focus on understanding the "why" of each part of the liturgy, ultimately taking us out of wanting upbeat entertainment and turning our own selfish focus toward God. Both of them agree that a beautifully conducted worship service will draw us into a sacred metaphysical space. In a brutal "views from the pews" perspective, the order of service is ink placed on paper by human beings, that has an effect that is usually not put into words.
The examples of enculturation seemed very puerile when removed from their local context. Within the Anglican Communion, local variation is allowed - but the variations have to go through expert liturgical clergy committee formulation, and approval by the Provincial House of Bishops. There is an approved English translation of the liturgy used in the Province of Japan, and it does have variations from the liturgies used, for example in the US - but given the variations worldwide, they are not unique in the world. Let me mention two. First, with the Confession.. In the US it is said by clergy and congregation together, while in the Province of Japan, the celebrant leads with his confession, followed by the confession of the congregation. The second is the variations in a few of the collects and readings for specific days, where the US liturgy takes a celebratory outlook, and the Japanese collects and readings take a "walking together with those who are suffering" outlook.
Brian treated "protestant" in this dialog as a condemnation of a deep sin against the Holy Spirit, utterly cast out into the darkness. Fr. Dwight Longenecker recognized the range of diversity, from Anglican church parishes which are more catholic (high church) to the free-form evangelicals preaching the prosperity gospel with no one speaking out against them (which I agree is a problem). Neither touched on the Eastern Orthodox traditions, which are also informative. (although the Russian Orthodox church is right out there with the evangelical prosperity gospel groups as outliers.)
This was a good discussion, and I hope that the consciousness of all Roman Catholics can be informed of the "why" of their liturgical practices, resulting in a resolution of the difficulties.
Rescue the novus ordo experiment? Good luck with that one!
Having wandered to protestant worship services, I find the novus ordo tweaks are an imitation of protestant worship. Sadly, the different lay ministers and choir are given way to much latitude. It's like the novus ordo was meant to be abused.
no, you will find that thee Ordinary form pre dates the anglican and Lutheran services that seem similar.
The First Eucharistic prayer is closest to the TLM and is the best
The Novus Ordo is not just different in form. It is preaching a different theology. Of course it’s a rupture.