The Church Can't Go Back to 1950
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2024
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Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Thanks to the magic of social media, I was reminded this week of a focal point in the never-ending struggle between orthodox and modernist factions in the Church today. I had posted something about how doctrine that isn’t merely a reproduction of the sentiments of popular culture is essential to a community and culture that can resist being swallowed up and assimilated by the secular world. And someone replied by saying that they remember what the Church was like prior to the Second Vatican Council, and that they would never go back to that. Which was kind of surprising because I thought to myself, I’m not sure how this relates to what I said, but OK, let’s … let’s do this. And in their reply they pin-pointed a common point of contention that often gets raised in debates about modern Church culture which is that the pews used to be full and now they’re not - and if you’re more traditionally minded, you might think, we need to turn back from the path we’re on as it’s having clearly deleterious effects on the Church and her efficacy in proclaiming Christ to the world. But, no, this person claims. Don’t fall for that trick that’s not the way. Sure, there may have been seminaries bursting at the seems with religious vocations, and churches overflowing with attendance every Sunday, but you’d be mistaken if you thought that was an indication of the vitality of the Church. He goes on to claim that most of those people only came to Church for compromised reasons like fear of judgement or damnation. And now that we’ve changed our ways and stopped using fear as a manipulative tactic to get people to come to Church, they don’t come any more and all that remains are people who truly love God for the right reasons.
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I'm 72 and I clearly remember how things were in the "old" church, and I can assure you, things were better....more reverent....more prayerful...and more holy.
Hello 👋
What a mess it is today
I was told that you need to be in your 80's to say that.
I am 64 and I remember as well and you are 100% correct
Now it’s just Apostate Anti-Popes.
For whatever else you might say about this video, I just love reading all the comments from the 80+ crowd. It's such an honor that you're sharing your knowledge and experience with us.
Ty❣️🔥☦️
It's amazing to some of us, that anyone 'listened' & responded... I know for a fact I'm not the only one with a Foil Hat Collection, that began in late 70's!😉
68 here. Lost the beautiful traditions but going back. JMJ🙏
What's happening to us is not quite as simple thinking about the 1950's. CS Lewis, Belloc, and GK Chesterton all make it clear that sincere Christian belief was in free fall no later than 1900. I highly recommend "The Great Heresies" by Hillaire Belloc. His predictions on Modernism from 1930 are chilling.
Vatican I and II both address modernism. That there are two councils within 100 years of each other should give you some historical sense of the enormity that is modernism. By Vatican II, church attendance was down to 50% in France. Bishop Fulton Sheen seems to be keenly aware of the problems mid 20th century in various statements I have heard.
By 1950, the veneer was paper thin on formal Mass attendance everywhere, something I can vouch for in the attitudes of my own late Catholic grandparents. I admit little patience with our current crop of elders who can only see their childhoods as either uptopian or awful. What is universal is having no sense of the continuity of history -- there is no sense or much interest in the world before WWII. In that, we have to try to contact that past as you did with GK Chesterton. Good litgury helps, but people really must circumcise their hearts to have reverence. It's possible without VII, we might have irreverent TLMs, nothing more.
I grew up with the TLM. When the newer version came about, I just went along with it. But when the TLM became available, I preferred going there. Even if our NO masses here are decent (I've seen some grade B ones) but they're not as sacred or deep.
I'm a Protestant but do visit some evening services at a Catholic church because numbers of Protestant churches have their usual hum-drum Sunday morning sermons only and I can't make it out in the mornings anymore. They used to have Sunday evening services but for stupid and petty reasons they stopped. When I and others would bring this up to the leadership, they didn't care and cut Sunday evenings off anyway. So a number of us cut them off and just watch online. Many churches need to think outside of the box and be more flexible. I respect the Catholic churches for have many services daily including the evenings. My humble respects. They put many lazy Protestant churches to shame that mostly target a specific demographic of people who are married with children and who are on day-shift. Those kinds of churches have my dis-respect.
Families were stronger. My parents gathered us five kids to say the rosary every night. I think the breakdown in the family is closely related to the breakdown of the church.
Five kids? That's a cozy little number.
What annoys me is the statement that everything was better and everyone is leaving the church because the "modern Holy Mass" was introduced.
No, from my point of view a lot has to do with the general changes in the state and society. At the same time that the Vatican Council was discussing and deciding on the changes, socio-political upheavals were taking place. Demonstrations against war, for equal rights, etc. And university professors, lawyers, politicians and the church were often equated. (= dusty, antiquated, lying brotherhoods, etc.)
In the last 10 years or so, many have left the church because of the church's cover-up policy*. This cover-up and crime also took place nearly a quarter of the time period under review, prior to Vatican II. * Mistreatment, sexual abuse, etc. -> period examined in my country 1946-2014, this corresponds to approx. 26% of the time until the conclusion of the 2nd Vatican Council.
(By abuse I don't mean slapping or simply "spanking" as punishment, as well into this period this is still socially acceptable in some areas.)
Yes. War has been and continues to be waged on the church. We all got timid and apologetic. Now that an awful lot of chickens from militant secularism have come home to roost, we should relentlessly strike back. Crime? Drugs? Greed? Murder(abortion) on an epic scale, what say you?
My Catholic high school had divorced families, out of the 100-something graduating class there were maybe 7 devout Catholics (and we made fun of them for it), nearly 10 years out we have far more atheists, agnostics, transgenders, homosexuals than we do anyone identifying with Catholicism when bundled together. Every Catholic I've met never wants to go back, like they're physically disgusted by the Church. They were abused, bullied, by Catholics. I'm one of them. To me, it's because of the holier-than-thou conservative, spiteful, self-aggrandizing bigots who make up the Church today... but was the Church always comprised of people like that? Was it different before Vatican II, like actually good, Christlike people rather than rosary-saying, hive-mind mean people?
born in 51. served mass for years. remember it well. yes, the church hierarchy and priesthood had problems, especially in being imperious, but it also fostered a reverent attitude towards the Mass and Eucharist. I loved walking through the snow in the dark to serve at early Mass.
That just gave me a beautiful visual. 🙏
I'll take an " imperious," hierarchy any day over the sodomitical, effeminate, and spineless clergy of today.
@@vkbowerssame, very beautiful! When in attend a TLM mass… it is so reverent and kneeling to receive should be standard. Bishop added a kneeler to most/all church’s in Lincoln Diocese in Nebraska.
Kudos to you young man! Your take on this subject is amazingly logical and a breath of fresh air.
I am 72 years old born in 1949. I went to Mass with my mother and grandmother and I had no clue what they felt or thought but I saw what they exhibited by their holy example. It convinced me that what we where doing must be very important and quite sacred.
Yes and im 77 yrs. and also why in FATIMA and many other present day messages is it mentioned about the displeasure of how the church is out of order
Love this
"Jesus came to save you from yourself, not to congratulate you for what you already are".
Amazing quote
So good. 👏👏👏
wow, thank you or doing that! thank you for seeing how horrible i am and helping me to be so great!
@@ThatCrazyMisanthrope are you being sarcastic?
@@TheLonestarofTexas no, i am inherently full o sin al mankind is full of sin and only through god can we be redeemed! I am new to jesus and have learned of our inherited immorality and the absolute need or god to lead us into redemption. only jesus saves only our lord can purify us! amen!
Yeah that quote stuck with me as well. There is so much meaning and introspection wrapped up in that one sentence.
Thank you Brian. I am 82 and I remember when the Church was alive, when we did not have heretical Hierarchy. The Masses were packed. Sodalities (men’s and women’s) were well attended and Children’s Masses were every Sunday. Monday night Novena for Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception was a regular custom. Holy Days punctuated the whole year. The people knew, loved and sang all the hymns. Thank God The Latin Mass is growing again and has many young men emerging as priests from the seminaries.
Yes. I'm hoping priesthood continues to grow. The diocese I'm in just released a 10year preist reduction plan - 3 to 5 churches for most by 2030 if I recall.
Remember the many novenas. The processions. The many men involved in the Holy Name Society. It was a different religion in so many ways.
@@LUIS-ox1bv because it was. It was the Catholic faith. vibrant and alive and permeating all aspects of daily life. It was GRAND!
“One week they had the Latin Mass. The next week they had guitars. The third week they became non-practicing Catholics.” That’s how my mom described how fast the changes in the Mass happened and how quickly my grandparents left the Church. The Mass had become ugly, and they didn’t want that in their lives.
@@kaylancor I agree with you, but that’s not the point of the comment. The point is, when you are always told that you should treat Christ with reverence, and then not doing so is inherently wrong, and then, the very same institution that told you that for your entire life, (and in the case of anyone who is old enough to be a grandparent, that life would obviously span decades) begins treating him with irreverence quite literally overnight, well, what would you think?
@@kaylancor why do you weigh and describe your faith by going to a certain denominations church? It’s faith in God, resurrecting Jesus Christ, for his righteousness to be imputed to us by faith.
Why ascribe faith as to going to church? Where is that found anywhere in the Bible or common sense ?
@@diorsqipe1361
"Do this in memory of Me" Ring a bell?
@@diorsqipe1361 Where in the Bible does it say only to believe in what's found in the Bible? And who decided which texts were to be in the Bible?
Honestly I think this speaks to a failing of prior decades of catechesis. If someone leaves the church now because of the abuse crisis, or because they don't like Pope Francis, OR, because their priest is too orthodox, or whatever, then I feel like they don't understand the fundamental necessity of the mass. Apparently it was no different in that respect than it is now. People who left never truly understood, or never believed in the true necessity of the mass. It is so sad on many levels. And I've never really thought about applying that to the older pre-Vatican II crowd. But....I believe those who left in 1970 because of the reforms are of the same unfortunate mindset as those who leave today because of the past abuse crisis.
I'm in my 40's. Converted 20 years ago to Catholicism. Started attending a TLM 10 years ago, and although I didn't understand the latin, or all the goings on, I felt like I was at home. My heart was instantly there. There is a strong young adult community there. Some with piercings, some with tattoos. Their faith is literally on fire! Their stories range from being raised in that community to leaving a cult and being embraced by the TLM community. The grit, the truth, the variation (diversity) of people is a beautiful work of art indeed.
SO you joined when they were discoverd to be the largest child rape cult in human history?
If that is your experience I won't dispute it, but I do have a question on the causality. I don't think traditional mass is more reverent, or holy, but rather it has the reputation of being those things. As such people who are stronger in their faith feel like those are the masses they should be attending. This creates a self-fulfilling prophesy where those who are very reverent are surrounded by others who are deeply reverent, and that community helps to strengthen its own image.
I experienced something similar to what you describe but in a very different context: the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. All sorts of people, converts, etc. Praying in tongues, prophesies, miracles, lives profoundly changed, sinners truly repenting and coming back to God.
My only experience of the Tridentine Mass 'community' is remote and more recent, and I cannot say that it is a positive one. But that's my experience.
The Spirit blows where it wills.
@@JdAskins99I know my experience wont be considered an adequate sample size, but I grew up Catholic attending NO mass. I didn’t even know the Latin Mass was or that there was giant cathedrals that held these types of masses (I assumed the cathedrals were merely relics maybe used for special occasions). I became an atheist and then someday about 12-13 years later, I came back to Christ and was looking to return to the Church. I came across a church in Providence and met some people who introduced me to the Latin Mass. It was the most beautiful thing ever and I think the experience felt really immersive and therefore made me feel closer to God. I know a few people w similar stories like mine but many of us feel like the experience being so immersive really hooks us. I think the Mass could be in English and executed in the traditional manner and I would still feel immersed. I think people who typically go to TLM generally have a more traditional mindset and are more consistent in their attendance, how they present themselves at Mass, and how knowledgeable they are. Nothing wrong with the NO, but I find myself wandering and it’s hard to stay focused for me.
@@JdAskins99As a lifelong Baptist from Texas - I thought I couldn't stand Catholicism. I remember attending a few Novus Ordo masses (not that I knew what that meant) back in high school and thought it was ugly and lame. The hymns were bleh, the church itself looked like a Protestant church with vestments, and the people seemed less inspired and passionate than those at my Baptist church. This past year, I became curious about the TLM and decided to attend one in Houston. I was floored by the sense of God's presence, the reverence, the holy awe, the Gregorian Chant. I'm starting RCIA this Thursday. I couldn't tell you what the people were like in either mass - I wasn't really paying attention to them. The liturgies themself were so vastly different, and as a person who wants to serve a Holy God well, the Latin Mass seems to give Him His due better than both the Novus Ordo and Protestant services by a mile.
I was young , about 10 years old,but I remember how things used to be. None of my numerous siblings and cousins (and I mean numerous) are still in the Church. I recently returned but none of my siblings or cousins have ever returned. There were some problems ( some of the nuns in school were really mean!) But let me tell you, they sure put the fear of God in you, which is a good thing. We learned to be quiet and respectful in Mass. And we learned not to touch the Eucharist with our hands. And if any of us girls showed up to school Mass without our Mantilla, the nun would bobbypin a Kleenex to our heads. So when I came back to the Church several years ago I was appalled at all the changes and how irreverent most people were while in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Thank God I found out about the TLM still being available and there was one within driving distance.
Yes, this is what we get after years of spiritual mediocrity: mediocre people. And God hates mediocrity…
You’re lucky. No TLM here where I am and no Byzantine Catholics either. And yes I’ve seen people being up the Eucharist in Jean shorts and flip flops while wearing a shirt with a drawing of a stripper! I couldn’t believe the Priest when they saw this person didn’t just grab someone else. While that person is at the very least ignorant the Priest should’ve been reprimanded for not setting expectations
@@albertfuertes2794 He also hates pride. People wanting to feel superior, more reverent than their brethren are exhibiting that pride.
Those of us born in the 40's were NOT 10 years old when Vatican II was implemented (check your math)! I sharply disagree that by our late teens and early 20's (old enough to fight and die in Vietnam) we were not capable of judging the state of the Church pre- and post- Vatican II . Contrarily, I would add that we are much more capable to appreciate the change we experienced than those, like you, who never experienced the pre-Vatican Church. I saw Faith - strong Faith, among my parents, grand-parents, uncles and aunts, and among much of the parishioners who filled the now depleted churches. My experience was that their Faith was stronger than those of the much diminished number in attendance today. OK - the Nuns did insist on discipline, but you did not see children chewing gun, laughing and playing in the communion line, and did not have parishioners around you carrying on conversations through the Mass. Parents removed their small children from the church when unruly; today they let them scream while the priest is reading the Gospel or trying to give the homily. Weekly or monthly Penance was the norm, and you typically waited 30 minutes for your turn, with two confessional going. Today, with a much diminished hour/week available for Penance, you are typically alone, with the priest waiting for you. My grandparents said the rosary every night on their knees - and not for fear of Hell, but for love of their community and God. My Grandfather participated with his brothers, father, and the community to hand build (themselves - not by hired labor nor contractors) a spectacular church - the biggest cathedral west of the Mississippi at that time. Of hand hewn stone - quarried themselves. The poor farming community cut to the bone to purchase the very best stained glass windows from Germany, marble statues from France and massive granite pillars domestically. Look it up - enter "The Cathedral of the Plains" into Google. Try not to gasp! Who do you know who does this today? Today these wonderful churches are having trouble staying open - greedy Bishops are selling them off in the big cities for cash to pay off civil suits resulting from scandals of the worst kind, and to buy beachfront playhouses for themselves. Oh, I would say that Vatican II was and is a HUGE failure.
In those days the children were not only respectful in the church and towards their teachers (nuns), but also towards their parents and strangers. Meanwhile, today, 10 year olds scream for no reason they are going to "kill" you and women (no matter how old they are) passing by the children's playground, are called 'bitches'. Recently my spouse was even spit in her face for politely asking one of the children to clean up their mess near the river in our park.........
But what do you expect from kids that are capable of killing each other with a knife, which happened recently.......... again......
Welcome to the Netherlands!
"NEVER AGAIN" you say???
I really wished WE COULD TURN BACK the clock!!!! Back to a time with full churches, NORMAL children, decent parents and STRICT teachers, just like the nuns in those days, as this attitude is necessary to create respect and obedience.
I’m almost79and remembering a flourishing Catholic vitality at this time. I attended Catholic elementary school and we had Mass every day. However we also had three priests, where today you’re very lucky to have two. They seemed to not have as many administrative duties either. We had a ladies sodality for teens, a Holy Name Society for men and scouts also. We always had parish events like dinners, dances for the teens and bake sales! The fire and brimstone was mostly from Parish missions in Lent and Advent. Anyone remember these? We used Missals that had Latin one one side English on the other. We attended Mass not because of fear of hell but because of the First Commandment. Then it changed. Altars were stripped, Communion rails vanished( nothing in Vatican 11 said they should) as well as statues replaced with modernistic plaster Stations of the Cross. I blame the bishops who took it upon themselves to order these changes, and Catholics resented this. My great grandmother donated land for the Church. Now I understand it’s a Baptist church! I miss novenas, Holy Hours that lasted 3 days with professionals and Benediction and no nonsense homilies together with weekly Confessions. Maybe I’m old school, but we did have sermons about sin and dressing modestly in Church. The culture crowd would have a fit if this was done today and maybe priests suspended.
That's so sad that your grandmother's donation was wasted that way by the diocese. In my archdiocese, the priest shortage and low numbers of registered families led to blending 4 parishes together, with one priest to act as administrator of them all. The one near the campus of the community college was closed soon after being merged into the mega-parish, then the Hispanic mission church was closed, so we're down to 2 churches administered and served by one priest. The church where my grandmother's father was a cofounder in the 1880s, where my Dad and I were baptized, is only used for one Sunday Mass, although it is currently being used as the site for weekly Adoration and Confession. That's a blessing. But there's no telling how long it will be kept, as the average age of attendees is 70!
@@kimfleury We haven’t had blending of parishes yet but I think all of our parishes have only 1 priest. I live in Utah and there’s also “missions” in rural areas. Many Hispanics here so many of our churches have both English and Spanish Masses. I notice though that the wealthier parishes hold only the English Masses and usually the pastors are there for a long time and aren’t moved around much. We attend a TLM Mass on Sunday at one of our neighboring parishes. The pastor there has two English Masses, one Spanish Mass and the Latin Mass on Sunday. Since surrounding churches celebrate the Spanish Masses I suspect our bishop forced the pastor to have the Spanish because he refused to stop the Latin Mass ( almost two years ago and this was our ex pastor who retired). At that time he had an hour Adoration and Benediction before the TLM but was forced to drop it as he had to celebrate the Spanish Mass instead.
Most of what you describe is done today at the TLM parishes, with daily, not weekly confessions before all Masses.
@@rosemariekury9186 - the irony is that in the old days it didn’t matter which language you spoke when you attended mass, the people with their missal understood it any where in the world.
"People went to Church out of fear... & Nobody knew what was going on..."
What a Crock!
I'm 81, born & raised in a Parish, in St Louis... Catholic Schools & Daily Mass, GS thru Jr College. Catholic life was centered in the Parish, for all ages! In GS we had awesome Nuns, full Habit, great Women who made sure we Understood the Mass. Anyone who didn't know Latin/English translations by 8th grade, probably were never going to know it! (It's now called, 'Immersion') Catechism Classes were Daily along with age appropriate Activities... ie:Choir & Practice for Girls, & Older Boys, "mentored" the Young Altar Servers.
7th-8th Grade-We 'Protested' a C Rated movie, "The Outlaw"@ a neighborhood Theater. (It was gone the next day.) In the Jr Legion of Mary we Volunteered & visited local Nursing Home's & played Cards, read to, or just Visited... 1st-5th G, we had Mission Projects... Collecting School Supplies, & Care packages for School Children in Europe... (Parochial & HS's routinely had the highest Vocabulary & SAT Scores in the Country.) We had Scout programs, & the Softball & Basketball Teams played inter-mural Games with other Parishes
When Boys got into fights on the Playground, Fr O took Charge & brought out Boxing Gloves. (He was a Chaplin, & Front line Vet)
Bottom Line, not everybody was a Fool or a Hippie... Or Silent! It wasn't paradise, but Kids could play Outside, & go for Walks!
ps: "Nuns were Mean"-All Children think adults Correcting them are Mean!
Look what happens in Cities when 2yr olds in Adult Bodies, have Tantrums!
i wish this was still the way. We do not feel a part of anything.(part of its is us i know but part of it is the church and how parishes are run now)
How Very SAD 😔
TODAY‼️
Stay Blessed Always
🙏🏽🙏🏼🙏🏽❤️❤️❤️‼️
@@Mike-qc8xd That's WHY, You must Educate Yourselves, in both Church Teaching & authentic Church HISTORY! (NOT the Caca that came from MSM, Francis, & Canada this past week!)
It was a different world back when! A good world... it wasn't perfect but I and my family and friends like tradition and knowing your place, knowing when you should speak and when you should keep quiet, listening, respecting others etc.! Today there's NO quite, no respect (for anyone not even oneself), it's a free for all! The world can't run the way we're going and there's no going back! The Lord tells me I must respect my neighbor/s. How can I respect them when I can't stand their ignorance... What is one to do!!!!!!!!!
By me saying this I'm not letting one bad apple spoil the bunch but my mother who is now 81 years old was physically, verbally and emotionally abused by a nun when she was in second grade, I think. She smacked the kids all of the time and was so cruel. One story Mom told me was how she made my mom get her lunch, that she couldn't finish, out of the garbage and eat it. Being treated like that has had a negative affect on mom for her entire life.
I hold the position that the Church was in a tough state in the fifties and that the reforms that happened around Vatican II were not all that helpful. It’s like a doctor who correctly diagnoses you with a broken arm and then proceeds to treat you by stabbing you in the eye. So now, while I don’t blame the council itself, we find ourselves needing to correct the first problem and now also the bleeding eye. It will get done, eventually, but things will be plenty messy in the meantime.
Vatican 2 has definite problems with interpretation and some of the language is not very good in some of the documents such that they have been exploited by those with a modernist bent. Overall, things have been not delivered as promised
It's a one-way valve with current Vatican policies. Thet don't allow priests to talk about politics in public, but there is NO way to stop politics entering into the Church - especially at the local Parish level. The Vatican is being eroded by politics, instead of baptizing the world.
I would liken it less to a broken arm being treated with a stabbed eye, than a broken arm treated by exercising it to waken the medical nanobots supposedly injected into it. Except the nanobots don't exist.
I think the circumstances under which Vatican 2 were prescribed did not exist, or perhaps assumed way too much. The Church wanted to be an envoy of peace to a world that was finally willing to talk about peace, after 250 or more years of giving war a chance.
We should have known better that the world always wants peace on its terms - demanding absolute power and obeisance from all. And this is why the world continually cannibalizes itself and why we shouldn't be hasty to embrace it.
Best analogy, though I must say that the actual “doctor” really wanted to “almost” kill u, so the stabbing was in a more serious place that would allow you to die a very slow and painful death 😭
I do blame Vatican II. It was clearly Satan's council. The church structures were perfect. People need to work on themselves, their sins, they need to pray and they refuse. Just like some people who are always renovating their houses, barns, rooms but never work on their faults
I am 67. 7 years old in 1962. But I remember the beautiful choir. I remember beautiful May crownings that my sisters and I took part in. I remember mom buying us pretty hats at Easter and all the women dressed beautifully and the church being full. I remember being surrounded by a strong Catholic community. I remember sitting next to my mom at mass with my First Holy Communion Missal - still with the Latin responses - and following along. I remember the priest being very kind but serious when I went to confession. Fast forward to now: I am happy to have found a TLM mass and my son and his family joining us. Their daughter just made her first Holy Communion just the way I did. It made me cry with joy!
Not only are our memories of the church in the past affected by our age at the time, they lack historical perspective. What I sensed after talking with "the grownups" was a deep thankfulness for having survived WWII, and a recognition that we all need God's help and guidance. Many had gone through places that were as bad as it gets, and wanted to help make this world a better place.
Probably more importantly could have been that people in the 1940's and before also didn't have exposure to TV, and if they wanted to do things with the whole family, taking the whole family to a bar in town just wasn't healthy or affordable. Attending church picnics, sing-alongs, summer camp and potluck dinners was less expensive and healthier fun. Gathering there, you could have a known social network of people who knew people, and most probably would have your interests in mind along with their own interests.
"Back then" there were athiests, and people who were anti-church, but their opinions didn't make their way into our homes and families the way that has been going on for some time. I'm not talking about the direct attacks but rather what has made its way into the general culture, prioritising the self-interest and emotion, casting church attendance as "boring", "irrelevant", and somewhat like the prisons that school attendance have been charactured as. Attending church was a chance to learn how to read music, how to read long texts, (pick up a bit of Latin, which did improve grades at school), and how to ask adults questions that they had trouble answering. Learning how to sit quietly and try to figure out what was going on has also been a really good skill to have as an adult.
Your point about pandering to personal preferences is also good. Part of the Offertory is our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving (and our time) and to do that, we sacrifice our personal preferences for an hour or so once a week. It's a good exercise. And if there comes a time in our lives (in the army, in natural disaster, etc.) when we can't excercise our personal preferences, having offered that time of sacrifice in the worship service can help us weather that difficulty with more grace.
really good insight
Yeah, I’ll take 1950s Catholicism any day over what passes for the faith today
But eating a burger 🍔 on Fridays back then was wrong.
I wonder why suddenly it was ok?
Odd.
Almost as though its all made up rubbish.
What do you think?
@@geordiewishart1683 made up? Our lord says we need both prayer and fasting. The eastern Christians still do a lot more of that
@@aloyalcatholic5785 Why do we need Prayer and fasting exactly? Give me details. But please keep it simple.
@@Gfish17 The answer is simple. We need prayer and fasting to prevail mind from sinful temptations or unnecessary desires. It's also a way to show our love towards God.
@@Gfish17 You need prayer to develop a relationship with God. How could you have any relationship without communication? You need to develop that two way communication by developing the relationship to include everyone else.
You need fasting because from the time YHWH spoke to Abram those who followed were called to clear their mind recognize their dependence on others and to feel the emptiness within that draws us to that relationship with God and others (almost all spiritual people have practiced going without food or other important goods in life for this same purpose--Hindus, Buddhists, nature religions, Jews and Christians).
Jesus prayed and fasted and told us to pray and fast in the way He lived His life. Even "self help" pseudo psychologists practice meditation and fasting.
By the way; the Church helped the Catholic family by requiring fasting at specific times during the year and complete abstinence from meat on Fridays. It still requires you to follow Jesus' teaching about fasting but it leaves the time and method up to you personally. It is easier for me to remember by maintaining the Friday abstinence but I could choose to something else even more frequently. That's called treating you like an adult rather than making you fast or abstain from something on a specific day of the week. You are still required to fast and abstain but you have to be adult enough to make it fit into your life--maybe like not using a computer for a day each week or volunteering your time at a food bank or whatever let's you hunger for God more. The Church, of course, still requires us to fast and abstain at certain times for our spiritual life--like preparing for Easter during Lent
All I know is that when I go to mass at a “modern” church I feel empty and I don’t feel as if I went to mass. When I go to a more conservative/traditional mass and especially the Latin Mass I feel the presence of Jesus, I feel full.
Same here.
Same here...however, it is important to not just rely on feelings. If we aren't careful, it could lead to believing the NO Mass itself is inferior. It is a slippery slope
@@annoyingchannel8812 by what criteria?
@@ajmeier8114 Plenty of Catholic sites have detailed the transcendent and ephemeral qualities of the TLM. Do the leg work and find out for yourself, why the NO is what Pope Benedict XVI himself described as, " banal," and a "fabrication." The NO is simply not on the same level or league.
@@LUIS-ox1bv what a terrible argument. But what I expected.
Also, participating in the life of the Church merely out of fear of hell isn’t a wrong reason. It’s just not the best reason.
Well said!
Correct. It is called "imperfect contrition" but nonetheless sufficient. It would be better if you went to church out of love for God and a desire to please Him, but a genuine fear of hell (just punishments) is not wrong. It should scare you, it's horrific.
Now that is absolute rhubarb ! I grew up with Latin Mass and church was full...there was order . There was sacredness ....one can almost say we now have circus ....
Hello Leonie..
I agree sister
Thats how I want to hear about my religion.
In a language I dont understand
@@geordiewishart1683 u mean Latin? Every old Latin Mass missal I have seen has both Latin and English to follow along w all the prayers and order of the mass
*Almost* say "we now have a circus"? no, we can *definitely* say so! Have you seen some of the antics they have pulled in Church? My Lord Jesus, mercy! how they mock Your Holy Sacrifice!!!!!!
I'm in my 60s, and I remember the chaos in the Church in the 1960s and 1970s. Thirty years ago, I substitute-taught for a friend in Catechism, and was horrified to find that virtually no one in the class believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. What on earth are they teaching these kids?!
Less than nothing - they teach them heresy, or rather the synthesis of all heresies - the Modernism that Pius X warned us about.
Teach all day the real presence it’s nearly futile “worshiping” with guitars, communion in the hand, 9 Eucharist minsters, altar girls, Fr. reading the bulletin after communion…etc.
@@TheGringoSalado I know how you feel. A teacher of mine took me to a Russian Orthodox (RCOR) Liturgy in 1977, and the difference was like night and day.
I took my 87 year-old mom to a Latin Mass and she said it was just like the 1950s.
Dementia?
That seems pretty unlikely. As the music director at our parish, I have a lot of my parish's old hymnals and music books. Our parish choir was singing a lot of sketchy GIA hymnals and from a book of "easy propers of the Mass", not the full Graduale Romanum.
Whereas an FSSP parish of today would be using the full graduale and chanted propers. The FSSP put in a lot more effort than priests of the era did back in the day. In many respects, the modern TLM is a fruit of the council, not a reflection of what was, which was far inferior.
My best friend’s grandpa was a devout young man as a child, but when the New Mass came out, he said the Church lost the “true Gospel.” He came to abandon the Faith, and this has been how he has remained for many decades, even upon conversations with this friend of mine, a well-educated, intelligent, and devout theology major. The scandal of these “reforms” is very, very real
He should go to the TLM. :)
Take him to the Latin Mass it's what he will remember.
Take him to the Latin Mass it's what he will remember.
I recently turned 66. I have vivid memories of my years as an altar server (1965-1973). Our parish was fully engaged in the life of the Church. Our Masses were teeming with large and lively families. The TLM was beautiful, reverential, and quite frankly, awe-inspiring. I certainly didn’t understand the Latin I was reciting-even as an altar boy on the altar-nor the myriad rubrics of the Mass, but I always sensed on a level beyond the cognitive that God was present in the sanctuary. I’m blessed to now be a member of a traditional Catholic parish which embraces the orthodoxy and reverence of my childhood church.
I'm Orthodox but when I was a kid I went to a big Catholic Cathedral with some.neighbours. I remember how majestic the church was in it's liturgy and music. There was a sense of Holy Mystery that seems to have been dumbed down in the church of today with watered down Peter, Paul and Mary songs and buildings that look like drug stores.
There is no salvation outside of Catholic church.
@@Lonetradwolf Have a little humility Rob. Old men in #Bulgaria suffered decades of communist totalitarian rule, yet kept the Orthodox faith & yet you are saying their sacrifice was in vain?? I doubt Jesus feels the same way.
@@aclark903 Jesus Christ found only one holy catholic and apostolic church. This is the truth, and it has nothing to do with pride or humility. This is the dogma and truth.
@YAJUN YUAN No, i said what is true.
@@Lonetradwolf It's the #dogma. You got that right. The truth is the Church #Christ founded was Orthodox AND Catholic until the #GreatSchism.
I was born in '61, so, to your point, Brian, a little too young to recognize the changing church at the time. But what stands out as a remarkable difference between then and now is the number of devout men who attended daily Mass and played very active and visible roles in the Church. They were there with heads bowed, families in tow. It made a huge impact on me to see these farmers and football coaches and business executives love God that much.. I'd love to hear you opine on how we can get men back -- and have them stand firmly in place. Because when we women take over, as we do, men of today back off.
Exactly!
I am 84. I was blessed to have been catechized starting at 8 yrs old. In those days Catholic Action was fully alive in most of the world. After receiving First Communion, we were registered to continue Catholic formation according to your age, the were groups for men and for women according to age and state of life. My mother was in Catholic Action with married women. I was with the 8-12 girls group, my brothers were with the boys groups. I learned that I was the “Church” at an early age. Anyone who wanted could be part of Catholic Action. This was in Mexico. All were invited but few came, as it is nowadays. I love the CHURCH, the Body of Christ.
I knew so many Catholics who left the church after Vatican II. I never understood why, but today I do know why and can see the modernization that has occurred and has led people to think "It is all good". Jesus spoke about Hell the consequences of evil more than any other topic. But sadly, such is forgotten today and primarily since Vatican II.
I now know it is not all good which has been forgotten by so many people today both inside and outside the Roman Catholic Church. Read G. K. Chesterton and find great enlightenment.
"All Scripture is given for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Instruction in Righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".
At the time I honestly believed the church was no longer Catholic. It had changed so much, it seemed like a different religion.
Protestants churches have the same problem..watered down teaching to please man. The Bible tells us that on the Last Days people will not put up with sound doctrine/teaching but will want to have pastors/priests/teachers who itch their ears, in other words tell them what they want to hear, to justify themselves ..
@@VABE81030 You're right!!! Since Vatican 2 FAITH(=makes us Catholic) changed, liturgy(NOM, a protestant like service), ALL sacraments(doubtful/invalid acc. to former infallible Church teachings), saints, calendar, even furniture - like Luther back then - a new religion/church that is NOT Catholic. A shure sign is, that it lacks the unity of faith. The vast majority of churchgoers do not even believe in the Eucharist.
So "Can This Really Be The Church?" on YT, a trad priest will give an answer!
Christs Church is infallible and indefectible(=both DOGMA!) she cannot err or teach error, cannot contradict herself, give bad morals, practices, liturgy or doubtful or false sacraments and will remain even if reduced to a handful till the end.
There are small parishes/chapels with valid priests who practice the faith prior to Vat.2. >
traditionalmass org/issues
@@VABE81030 seemed, because it was. This stuff is nothing the same as what went before and is only getting worse with this pope and pack of cardinals
When my family went to Mass before Vatican II, we had to arrive at least 15 minutes early or we had to stand for the Mass because it was so crowded.
The pre-Vatican II Church had many good things. Keep what was true, good, and beautiful and move forward. But to attack the faith of Catholics of the past is an embarrassment.
I only know that the Second Vatican Council was a colossal mistake, its objective was to adapt the church to the challenges of the 20th century, the intention may have been good and its conclusions correct, but the policies that emerged from the council have been a complete and Total failure, instead of strengthening faith and morals, these simply fell apart, it is time to correct these failed policies.
I am crying right now because you just said out loud what's been on my heart for a looooong time! Thank you! 🙏🙏🙏
Hello Yvonne..
@@jimwalters5301 👋. Hello.
@@yvonnestyer7197 How are you doing, I hope you are having a wonderful time so far..??
@@yvonnestyer7197 Hello??
Are you there..??
@@jimwalters5301 yes. How are you Jim?
From what my parents told me , they knew their faith and what God expected of them.
I remember as a kid how reverent it was back then, you came to Gods house, no chatter, chewing gum, bringing water bottles.
I wish we could go back it was Sacred.
Hello Donna.
Amen!!!! They think their going to a party... Not the house of God!
Appreciate your work Mr. Holdsworth!
Yes and im 77 yrs. and also why in FATIMA and many other present day Marian apparitions visions and messages is it mentioned about the displeasure of how the church is out of order ....
I am 68 yes old and I remember pre Vatican times very well. I loved The Catholic Church and went to church because I felt the presence of God there. What I remember most is how Holy the priests were, how separated from the world they lived. They kept their distance and were greatly loved & respected.
And were concealing their paedophile friends and the sexual abuse that was rampant at the time. No we were very ignorant and blind back then and completely ignorant of what was going on. ( I’m 71)
Jesus was totally holy but not at all separated from the world.
John: 8 23 - and Jesus said unto them: you are from below, I am from above. You are of this world I am not of this world.
@@brianallbright2525 yes. Respecting the humanity of Christ is just as important as revering His divinity. Jesus walked among the both common folk and the power alike, and He spoke to them in their own languages.
People who are divorced from history look at all church music selections as “personal preference”. In their eyes, chant is equal to praise and worship. Simply saying chant is not personal preference does not convince people.
A better argument would be that Gregorian chant has been a part of Catholic liturgy for 1500 years. It is embedded in the ritual, sanctified over the centuries by our ancestors utilizing it in their corporate worship. And when we continue the tradition, when we maintain that ritual and it’s environment of art and music, we are reconnecting ourselves to all those centuries and Catholics. As Fr. Brian Harrison OS said, “Ritual is the closest we mortals come to eternity.”
ruclips.net/video/QxnYt9Q3YtI/видео.html
Amazing quote
Your explanation was very good. Many Carholics are enemic and weak in their catechises. They don't comprehend the weight and force of tradition. Or the fact that sacred, holy tradition, is just as valid as the Scriptures in the Catholic Church.Tradition is what sets the Catholic Church apart from Protestantism, which has little or no place for tradition.
I'm not Catholic. But I'm a millennial and I remember when I was a kid, the older folks and middle-aged folks that I grew up around, they all grew up in the traditional Catholicism. They remembered the old ways. It was around me everywhere. So even I didn't grow up in it, I was around it so much. It's amazing to watch how the culture has shifted, and the cultural "glue" that once held things together--for Catholics, Protestants and Jews alike--has crumbled. In some ways, it's sad. But maybe it's making room for God to do a new thing. Old vessels can't hold new wine.
I worked in healthcare. I watched the Greatest Generation come and go before me.
I also grew up in the Church of the late 1940s and up through the Vatican Council and still am a Catholic today I remember in the 1950s that the priest celebrating the Liturgy (Tridentine in Latin) would stop after the Communion to tell the ushers to go to the parking lots to tell people that Mass would not continue until they returned. I remember assistants at my parish leaving to get married in the 1950s (all hush hush of course). I remembered convents being full but the drain had already begun in the late 1950s (my teacher--a Benedictine sister --left in my parish school in the 1950s). Other teaching sisters I knew as I was going through Catholic High School also left after obtaining college degrees on their community´s dime but because there was no Internet and the papers never mentioned it you tended to know only if your town had the ex-religious involved. School gyms (public and private) had plays every year and the audience was packed. I think much of those big crowds had to do with lack of entertainment. I could see secularism already making a big headway. I knew a lot of people who really had a superficial belief in Jesus and the Gospel and those who were my age were standing at the back of the Church--even in the doorways--always asking when they had to be at Mass so as not to commit a mortal sin (the answer was from the Offertory to the Communion).. When I see people of my generation leaving after Communion today I imagine that they got their Faith from that time. Why go to Communion and then walk shamelessly out a side door with the Eucharist still in your mouth and think that you are at Mass filled with Faith? I remember those packed churches--packed with people I have just mentioned. I am still seeing the mass exodus at the Eucharist! The times were different. Stores were all closed on Sundays. You had 3 channels on TV if you could get good reception and a thick, local Sunday paper when you got home from Mass. If you put the Church of the 1950s into the Church of today I think you would see how much the milieu meant and the social pressures and just meeting friends at the back door impacted on church attendance. I often think how very few people I knew then really understood or bought into the Gospel--even with Catholic schools. Wars were glorified, prelates were big on titles and ornate vestments and daily wear. Clergy cars were scandalous (I was taught that the clergy should always live a bit below the means of an average parishioner). I mean the Tridentine Liturgy in the 1940s and 1950s is no panacea for secularism. Within two decades there was a collapse of numbers in the church and the scourge of secularism took out all the people who had filled the pews forb the wrong reasons. I am just saying that it was a VERY different time.
I think sometimes religion might save people if they have nothing else to turn to. Sometimes. Some people will just turn away regardless because they want to live their life as they want.
Politics and entertainment are very alluring distractions, though, and give people a way out of religion. They give them something to say other than "I'm bored stiff; I just want God to leave me alone". They found something else to do, and they found God did leave them alone.
Maybe we shouldn't have. Maybe given time AND attention, more might have come to appreciate why they were there.
You are saying that the post Vatican ll collapse in Church attendance and vocations would have happened anyway whether Vatican ll happened or not.
I read other comments of people of that era and compare them to yours. People have different impressions, that is clear.
Now, anecdotal evidence vs. statistical evidence.
It is clear that the post Vatican ll collapse and is continuing was unprecedented since the Protestant Reformation. Maybe there is no causal link between the changes that V ll brought and the collapse but it sure seems like a massive coincidence AND clearly the changes failed miserably if they were introduced to make the state of affairs in the Church better.
I look at the Churches with the NO and the ones with the LTM and see the massive differences in growth and attendance today. SSPX is the fastest growing of them all and that is telling. If the LTM is so productive in growth of the faithful then what does it say about the leadership of the Church to spurn it so harshly?
@@AL_YZ I am saying that the advent of "the modern world" was already ushering in the apparent collapse. The collapse had already begun with the ability of secularism to spread into communities. I have seen it in Africa where numbers in West Africa can be strong but secularism has not yet spread through access to the Internet and TV, in Ethiopia where the Apostolic Churches are full and I have worked in Florida where Ethiopian immigrants and especially the second generation do not go to church (and their liturgy has not changed at all), in Mexico where churches can be full among the poor but many, many younger people do not even see the Church in a positive light. I am saying that if you waste your time fighting over a Church if the 1950s you are doing everyone a disservice.
Right now it is an "all hands on deck" to face the REAL crisis in religion everywhere. Secularism. If you spin your wheels trying to fix a liturgy that the Spirit opened in a new way to evangelize you are on the wrong track. The main line Protestant churches are losing members. The megachurches have no liturgy at all but still garner large numbers--but they have fallen victim to politics and a false Gospel of "prosperity" or gather the wagons around in a circle of self protection. They will also wither--they have already changed focus from their origins in the 1949s and 1950s. The heart of true evangelism that the Pope and the Church call us to is to face secularism as a practice and a philosophy if we want to turn things around. The Tridentine Liturgy is not the answer. It is wishful thinking. It is a gathering around of the wagons to protect the Church. Look at the Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Churches in Communion with Rome. Their liturgies remain basically unchanged. Their numbers among the generations in the West after the 1940s have become less. It is not the language nor the ritual. It is the secularism that has slowly and insidiously moved into Western Culture. Any group that becomes infected by it faces a terrible battle. Those "Sunday morning" adherents to the Church who never had the true Gospel and Faith in their souls--a Faith and the Gospel that was more than"skin deep"--have already failed. Look at today. Many, many Catholics treat the Faith as an adjunct to their political parties, their view of the poor ( "it is their own fault ), their personal race for wealth, their comfortable life with their house and their car while immigrants suffer (let them stay out of our country), a tax system that favors the rich yet the poor are gullible enough to vote politicians in that beguile them with visions that somehow life is about wealth, a gun lobby that has enthralled a population into a fear of their government and neighbors and allow themselves to trust in guns and rich manufacturers and lobbyists of this scourge...it isn't the Latin Mass. It's the lack of a Gospel in the hearts of those who have fallen for or are falling for a non-Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is secularism that began and is underpinned by modern technology used to influence the masses in place of the Gospel.
The Pope has been saying this but so many pick and choose what they believe based on a life which has fallen to secularism. "Repent and believe the Good News" is just a pious saying to so many. Put your spiritual armor on and fight those secular defects in ourselves and then in society. This is going to be a long fight. In the end the Church will survive because it is the Spouse of Christ.
I grew up in the church before Vatican 2 and like my grandmother I was anxious to attend daily mass. I was confirmed before the Modernists used Vatican 2 to take GOD (the TRINITY) out of Mass. The mutations brought in by these same modernists drove me away from the so called new mass. I searched for GOD elsewhere and found only the deception of the new order wherever I went. We were just another protestant church!
Thank GOD for those who saved and upheld the Latin Mass and the traditional catechism. They saved me from the darkness growing in me, planted by the new changes to an unchanging GOD.
SERVIMUS NON REGIS SED IESUS CRISTUS!!!
O My God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, BECAUSE I DREAD THE LOSS OF HEAVEN AND THE PAINS OF HELL, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace,
to confess my sins, to do penance
and to amend my life. Amen
The way of salvation, according to the Bible:
ruclips.net/video/SLK5CdR0ojc/видео.html
Dear Brian, I am a 50 year old woman blessedly born into a faithful Catholic family. My parents are now 83 and recently passed 85. I grew up going to daily Mass and frequent reception of Confession. I recognize that I am a part of a very tiny minority of persons in this hedonistic world. I also grew up in post Vatican II, and am a member of the immediate fallout generation. In first grade, Sister Moya wore a full habit. In second grade, Sister Colleta came in and wore 5 inch heals and a very modified habit. In fourth grade, Sister Margaret came in and announced her new name was Miss Fleming. One of my best friend’s parents were a former Maryknoll priest and nun respectively. I remember watching the white smoke on tv when Pope John Paul II was elected Pope. I remember how poor the catechetics were and how through his papacy, the Church started to reclaim her strength. I was a relatively new mom when the priestly scandals hit the church, and my two brothers-in-law where abused by priests when they were in early middle school. I still go to daily Mass and have and still homeschool my 5 children. My grown child is a very faithful Catholic. The others are younger and are doing well.
A little perspective for your wise generation who seems very sincere. The Latin Mass is very beautiful, no doubt, and it is very important that we worship our Almighty God in the most reverent and faithful way possible. Though I attend Latin Mass from time to time, I have lived enough time and have heard enough stories from my devout parents to know a truth about the human race. People can corrupt anything. My dad’s priest growing up said a 15 minute low Mass. As an alter server, he daily witnessed the priest starting Mass in the sacristy, hurry into the sanctuary, say the Mass, and finish it as my dad tried his best to keep up in speed Latin. I doubt there was anything reverent about that. My mom one year as a child passed out on Good Friday after having to kneel for 3 hours straight. They were a tougher breed back then, but even for my German American mother, three hours was a little excessive, and certainly not conducive to prayer. The fact is, nothing is so sacred that humans can’t screw it up. Take for example the so called traditional Catholic movement. ( and could someone please tell me why people have to differentiate their level of Catholicism. Either you are Catholic or you are not. If you need a label beyond that: progressive, liberal, traditional, conservative, rad-trad, I doubt the trueness of your belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith.) I have witnessed the elitism of some members of that affiliation. I know people that would rather abandon Catholicism than give up their idolatry of the Latin Mass.
I encourage everyone who is passionate about the Latin Mass to ask themselves one question: If the Latin Mass was completely banned and the Novus Ordo was the only Mass available, would you abandon the Church to attend a schismatic Latin Mass? I will tell you right now, that if the Novus Ordo was banned and the Latin Mass were the only option for me, I’d without hesitation be there every day on my knees to be able to receive the King of Kings in the Holy Eucharist. Because when it comes down to it, while we should always work toward the perfect, that is why I am a Catholic. John 6.
And one other thing, many of the priests involved in the priestly scandals were educated prior to Vatican II. And while my mother still laments many changes since Vatican II, namely the loss of a daily presence of the many nuns and priests in her life, she always told us that changing from the Latin Mass to the Novus Ordo did not cause her any problems. You see, she had already been attending daily Mass for a number of years by that time, and nothing was going to keep her away from receiving the Lord. And that is how she raised us as well.
It's a question a lot of people would fail. Many would rather go to a Church in blatant schism or miss Mass altogether than attend the Novus Ordo. To me, that brings scandal to the reverence of the Latin Mass.
I was 6 years old when Vatican ll ended. I remember the horror of the introduction of the Novus Ordo. Mass was not the same. We can not literally go back to the 1950s. But we can restore the Church back to its original forms. The reason people don't come anymore is that there is nothing to come to. All has been modernized or rather destroyed by Modernism.
As G K Chesterton said, people say that one cannot turn the clock back. That is not true. Once can easily do so. He then went to the mantlepiece, opened the door of the mantle clock and, with his index finger, turned the hands of the clock back.
The difference is that we were a Christian nation then and the peer pressure was toward virtue and against hedonistic attitudes. Definitely this is an asset for all society. Church attendance was high in all faiths and mankind heard the Word of God weekly. This, of course, was bound to bear good fruit until the faith was undermined without and within.
I’m a pre-Vatican II Catholic and for the most part I long for the way things used to be. Graduated High School in ‘68. Sure, some things needed amendment, but it seems like the baby was thrown out with the bath water.
I graduated in 1970 and feel the same way. As a matter of fact I felt that way at the time. The new mass seemed shallow + dead to me then as it does now. I was shaken + horrified when I attended the Lutheran funeral service of an old family friend and realized it was the same as the "new" Catholic mass. Our new mass is simply the service of the heretical fornicator Martin Luther.
@@alexk48 Amen brother!
@YAJUN YUAN Clarifications needed to eliminate what some felt were excesses. Unfortunately, it did turn into a reformation with, IMO, disastrous consequences.
@@jowr2000 Ignore Yajun Yuan. He is an anti-Catholic troll who likes to comment stupid things all over Catholic RUclips channels.
@@gch8810 thx
No fear….only to see and receive and thank God. I’m mid sixties….I remember EVERYTHING! Priests, my parents, relatives and nuns and neighbors were great role models. All 8 of my siblings (;all born in the 50’s and 60’s) still go to Holy Mass!,
That’s a testament to them. When the Church changed my family stayed firm on receiving Communion on the tongue if we went to the NO. Where we grew up we had many places that still said Mass in Latin and also Mass with Latin. We were well catechized as well. We learned Gregorian chants, Latin, respect, love and encountering Our Lord at the foot of the Cross. We learned our prayers and learned to be grateful. I could go on and on….I miss so much….but found places to go where I live now. This too shall pass.
As a man who grew up Protestant I know more about Protestant history in the 20th century than Catholic. So, I can’t speak to whether or not the Catholic Church was all fire and brimstone, but I can tell you that the Protestant Church was very focused on Salvation through faith in Christ and repentance, Sin, Heaven and Hell, and then a big change came during the 1960’s-1970’s through what are known as the “Word of Faith” and “Jesus” movements. Things became much more focused on Love and Grace, to the neglect of other matters like Sin and Repentance.
I’m 32 btw, and trained to be a Protestant Minister. I am not a minister however, and am finding the Catholic Church very persuasive in recent years.
The wonderful Latin Mass didn't allow individual preferences
Community worship should never be about individual preferences.
@@alexk48 Somebody is always making the choices. That person's individual choices are recognized.
I finished High School in 1961, so I grew up in the traditional church. Loved it! Fortunately now have a FSSP parish which is a blessing! A gift from God. My daughter and granddaughter love it. The old Mass was truly Catholic!
They are wrong. Iam 81. We knew our faith . We loved the blessed sacrament
Hello Lilian..
Wow Brian! I am 82. 1950'sGrammar and high school. Nuns and brothers. i was gone from the Church for fifty years. I love being back. I love the traditionlal and the New Mass.
My grandaughter went to 13 years of Catholic schools in the 2000's. We had teaching that couldn't have been more different. She was a 4.0 student. She has absolutely no knowledge of any saints or miracles that are so much a part of our tradition. i think we have lost a lot.
The last NO mass I went to was so loud constant singing, Loud responses, horrible sign of peace, people sanitizing their hands after communion. I had such a hard time praying with all the noise.
Likewise..
Yes, no one goes to church for a moment of peace and prayer!!!
They are there for the social gathering! The only thing that hasn't happened yet is the kids allowed to run up and down the aisles! Maybe that's next...
The fear of judgement is not a bad place to start the journey to the love of God.
Yeah why would we want to go back to the Mass of the Ages, solid doctrine, and Popes who held to the doctrine of the Apostles when we can have Pachamama, queer prelates, and church hierarchy who participates in rituals w pagans.
I get it, and agree 100%.
I was born in 1955 and remember well, how beautiful the Mass was back then. We were brought up with respect for our elders and the clergy. There was no confusion on dogma and great love for the Pope, unlike today's turmoil in society. It was a more loving and helpful world to live in.
Part of the reason for the rampant unchecked corruption of the world is the wicked have no fear of hell. That is by design.
Awesome points and insights! Thanks I am a convert and sad I missed the time before Vatican II.
Thank you Brian for another excellent video!! I'm 76 years old and I so very much miss the Church of my childhood with the priest facing the Altar, the altar BOYS responding in Latin (imagine that!), Holy Communion on the tongue at the Altar rail, all the readings done by the priest, beautiful Gregorian chants!!! So many wonderful memories! ❤🙏
There were problems pre conciliar here: in particular in Ireland. We had priests who would read out in front of the whole congregation what was put into the weekly dues and who didn't. Humiliation for poorer members who had a near subsistence existence. Leaving aside the heinous abuses perpetrated, there were serious issues.
However; our parents/grandparents were deeply rooted in the faith and had a great knowledge of liturgy and church history.
Cultural identity as well as faith firmed their identity.
born in 1951- I was in a class of 55 students at Catholic school. Altar boys were eligible in fourth grade. In my class, every boy except one applied and successfully completed the requirements which included writing all of the Latin prayers with no more than 3 spelling mistakes. There was no pressure to apply. Two of the boys in my class became priests. There were long lines for confession every Saturday. There was a 3 hour fast before communion and not everyone received. Even though we were poor, all the children had three sets of clothes, play clothes, school clothes and church clothes. Bishops, priests and nuns were respected. Regardless of the motivation of the many people who went to church, it everyone took it seriously.
People generalize. My missal pre-V2 was Latin on one page and English on the facing page. I never saw confused worshippers, but respectful, reverent,
and quiet before and after Mass. With all that our current leadership is doing, yes, there are going to be people running from the Caholic Church. In fact, things may be become schismatic.
I remember the same.
Hello Michelle..
I became engaged to a Catholic boy in 1967, his family wanted me to convert, but refused to go to church. The mother told me that they went to church one day & everything was different and they’d never go back. Needless to say, that didn’t encourage me to enter the church. I did speak to a priest who told me I’d never convert and he didn’t want to waste his time and mine. It must have been a very dark time in the church. This is one clear example of people leaving because of VII.
On the flip side, a friend talks about being in college and being thrilled by guitar music and English Mass. She loved it, but then she left the church for 30 years, I don’t know why.
Because she loved guitar music and not Jesus's church. It was a very dark time.
I'm starting to love your content more and more. God bless you bro
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
When you talked about the scary, fire and brimstone style homilies that some found offensive I couldnt help but think that being afraid of going to hell is actually a good place to start. After all, if we are afraid of going to jail, we dont commit a crime. In today's climate, people arent afraid of going to jail so anarchy reigns supreme. So it is in the catholic church, not being afraid of going to hell has changed people's perspective too. Rigidity and consistancy go hand in hand. As soon as you give 'em an inch, they will take a mile. It's called a slippery slope. Good commentary BH.👍🙏
Italian 17yo here.
From what you are saying the situation in the USA is pretty bad, I’ll pray for you.
But here in Italy church attendance is very high: on Sundays we have children mass and teens mass, along with other 4 masses for old people, all of them full. On week days the church is always half full, and the 7am mass is pretty full too! (My mother goes there everyday)
Italy has produced more Catholic Saints than any other country...
❤️
the emphasize SHOULD be on sin and hell (among other things of course). the Church WAS vital in the 1950s, nowadays you have to go to the SSPX for a guaranteed holy, sacred, transcendental Liturgy and therefore a closer relationship with the Lord.
Society of Saint Pius X
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X
Unfortunatly the SSPX say the modernized 1962 Mass not the Tridentine. They also profess the unity of faith with Pachamama Francis in the canon of the Mass bf God!
They have already compromised to reconcile with modernist Rome. Today they recognize the new ordination rites as valid, whereas under Lefebvre, priests had to be ordained sub conditione. A serious issue!
There are a few groups that hold the Catholic faith and practice it uncompromised: SSPV, CMRI & other independent groups or parishes.
Brian, you nailed it. A comment on your music point: As a music teacher, I noticed my students holding a real resistance to learning to appreciate music other than just what they like. I tried to open their minds up to hearing what makes a certain music great without asking if they liked it. In the Church the same attitude can be found. It's no recipe for unity, especially between generations. Yet plenty of other circumstances call for music that isn't necessarily your favorite music, but is definitely the appropriate music, like at weddings, graduations, military funerals etc. No one complains that Taps isn't their favorite song, and why can't we hear one that's more lively? So why can't we accept worship as being in a category similar to all of these in its use of appropriate sounds, I wonder? Great book I'm reading on the subject: Sacred Treasure: Understanding Catholic Liturgical Music by Joseph Swain.
Aren't we supposed to judge things by their fruits. Reformists are dying in empty parishes, traditional parishes are growing with many young and numerous families.
Eucharistic Adoration makes a church thrive, beyond the aesthetic of the mass celebrated at any given time and at any given church. My parish has a chapel where the Blessed Sacrament is exposed for 10 hours everyday and it offers two daily masses and 7 masses on Sundays, including a TLM. All the masses are full, and parking and seating are a problem the later you get there. I attend the NO mass on Sundays in addition to daily NO mass. It is one of the warmest parishes I’ve belonged to, and the parishioners are among the most virtuous (and they practice the most important one, if you know what I mean, the one that starts with H…).
In those days the children were not only respectful in the church and towards their teachers (nuns), but also towards their parents and strangers. Meanwhile, today, 10 year olds scream for no reason they are going to "kill" you and women (no matter how old they are) passing by the children's playground, are called 'bitches'. Recently my spouse was even spit in her face for politely asking one of the children to clean up their mess near the river in our park.........
But what do you expect from kids that are capable of killing each other with a knife, which happened recently.......... again......
Welcome to the Netherlands!
"NEVER AGAIN" you say???
I really wished WE COULD TURN BACK the clock!!!! Back to a time with full churches, NORMAL children, decent parents and STRICT teachers, just like the nuns in those days, as this attitude is necessary to create respect and obedience.
I was born in 1936.
I started first grade
At age 6
I remember vividly how beautiful Holy Mass was. How beautiful the priest's vestments were. How reverend were the people before the Blessed Sacrament,
It was a completely different society then.
@@elviradonaghy6425 I fully agree with you!
I was 12 in 1965. I remember things as they were because I attended Catholic schools throughout my childhood. I remember great faith and devotion among families with whom I was familiar. I remember changes after that period. For me the changes felt as if we were “Catholic Light”, like Bud Light. It felt ambiguous and undefined. We were often encouraged to examine Church teaching based on how we felt about it. WhenJohn Paul II came on the scene I was glad to see that element of reverence and undeniable truth proclaimed unapologetically. It felt like I could breath again.
Church feast days, Sunday Mass, Christmas, Easter and Holy Days were beautiful and full of deep meaning. As a child I didn’t always appreciate it, but it stayed with me. It still does. Those memories are rich and profoundly impacted my life. They shaped my life and I am so grateful I am among those who lived that time in the Church.
I was there in the days of Latin Mass and I can tell you there was a real since of mystery and the depth of the feeling of God being truly present.
I am 73, so I have seen both sides of the liturgy, pre and post vatican II. To blame the lack of participation in the mass, or the decrease of the faithful because of the change in the rite is myopic. It is not the change of the liturgy which has pulled away people from religion, rather the secular advances in scientism, loss of moral values due to the sexual freedom provided by the pill from the 60s onwards messing up the family structure, the modern belief that all truth is relative to each person point of view, dismissing a superior truth, etc., not only in the catholic church but in other religions as well. With regards to the post vatican II rite, in my opinion the communal experience of the mass changed a lot for the better with the use of the vernacular language, since very few people today speak latin; the same can be said about putting the altar as the center of attention, with the priest more integrated with the community, looking at the people.
I agree with all of your main points, as usual, and think you do an outstanding job of logically thinking through a topic. I have one nit, however. Regarding our own individual credibility to discuss the past prior to our own individual adulthood, I think it's important to consider that for those who are reared by loving parents and grandparents, their "memories" go back further than their own individual lives. For example, I was born in the late 1960s and my parents were born before 1930. I don't remember anything pre-Vatican II myself, but my parents, who shared their stories and their views regularly with me (not just once or twice, but daily, year after year) regarding their lives in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s were able, I believe, to give me and their other children (to the extent we were paying attention!) a sense of life prior to our individual births. And it is not only my parents who gave this to me, but a chorus of their siblings, their friends, a whole world of adults who formed and shaped me. And so I think, just as your children will have a very real sense of Canadian life in the early 21st century from you and your wife -- even though they weren't yet born when some of the things you share with them occurred-- so too anyone. A not insignificant part of our "knowledge," on a personal level, goes back a generation before we were born, precisely because a person doesn't start from nothing, but from intimate relationships with very real people who pass on very real knowledge deliberately.
"The Truth is always discriminatory whenever error places it into question. "
-Archbishop Carlo Vigano
Carlo Maria Vigano
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Maria_Vigano
I was born in 1960. I'm 62 I'm 61 years old and things didn't really start changing in the church until the late '60s. Before that time it was smells and bells. And even then when it started changing it started out quite slowly.
I was born in 1947. I would quite happily go back to the way the Church was in the 1950s. No ambiguous statements from the Pope, no papal approval of priests who condemn the moral teaching of the Church, no Cardinals calling for the abandonment of Catholic moral teaching. I can't see into people's minds as to why they went to church on Sundays in the 1950s but people knew about sin and regularly went to Confession.
If anybody knows of a Gregorian chant station, please let me know! Lol
I’ve tangled with that same commenter before too. I call BS on him. I’m actually old enough to have had first communion and confession prior to Vat2, and our old parish was in the news in the recent summer of violence (Mission San Gabriel in LA). My parents and us kids were friends with many vibrant large families. Only my parents though refused to go along with the NO. The other families’ kids mostly wandered away from the Faith. We did not. That says something right there.
Beautiful ! Blessings from Hulf Coast
Go to Rumble do a video search using Gregorian Chant Rosary. I listen to it every night. As a bonus, it is in Latin.
It's not about you. It's about Jesus Christ. It is about reverence, Thanksgiving and love for what He did for us. It's not about previouses it about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity.
But it’s still a dogma that missing mass was a mortal sin!!!!
I've heard SO many people say the reason they left the Church is because the priest always talked about hell and sin. Mostly boomers. And quite honestly, I've hardly ever heard a priest warn about mortal sin and the possibility of going to hell, so I have no idea where all those priests supposedly preaching hellfire went.
I am 74 years old and I already wrote a comment agreeing with Mr. Holdsworth. This comment is to anyone who thinks old church was all bad. Read the comments of all the other old people like me. We KNOW the modern church is wrong about how things were.
I was baptised into the Catholic faith in 1959 at the age of 18 years. Sunday was such an important day to many at that time. The reverence and devotion to the mass and the church was so special and meaningful to catholics which sadly I feel has almost disappeared. Hardly anyone in the churches I frequent, shows this reverence today. There is no quiet time preparing for the mass. People chatter as if they were in a supermarket. When queueing to receive Our Blessed Lord, very few even acknowledge the most treasured gift they are about to receive. Everything has just become a habit and I blame the church for this. Priests are so afraid of losing catholics if they remind parishioners at mass that they are in God’s church, a very special and sacred place. Until bishops and priests do something to stop the irreverence within the church, I feel more parishioners will stop attending mass.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I think the biggest problem with the 70s fans is they don't fear hell and cannot love a God who died to try to save them from it.
Dear Marc,
Why would you say that God died? The scriptures make no mention of such a thing happening.
@@titus3_1-7, Jesus died. Jesus is God. Jesus rose again.
@@MarcAupiais Ah, I see.
However, Marc, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the man, the Son of God, is the one who died on the cross and rose from the dead.
The Almighty God did not die on a cross, for he cannot die. As the scriptures testify:
Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
And,
John 4:24
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
God is a spirit, not a man. God cannot die. A spirit cannot die. Only men and beasts can die.
@@titus3_1-7, Jesus is fully man and fully God. His human body died on the cross. Jesus experienced that as a person. Death is of his human nature, not his divine nature, but he is one person.
Currently 31 and loving these comments! 🥰 My grandpa fell away from the church so my family tends to point to that as justification for novis ordo. The moment you even begin to talk about Latin Mass it is completely shut down.
"Gregorian chant is not anyone's personal preference"
(Tries to hide face) :D
it most certainly is. the holiest of sounds!
I became an evangelical and went through that stage of judging everyone's motives for going to church. Those Catholics, they're just going out of habit, out of fear, etc. I was so arrogant. I learned that it's not for me to judge. Everyone's on their own journey. Who knows what seeds are being planted and tilled in the hearts and minds of each person.
As an evangelical, there was this expectation that you had to be "Saved", in the sense that you had to have this one "born again" moment, and that every time you went to church, you should have an intense spiritual experience. But sometimes, God works in the little things.
Excellent point! People don't need to be perfect to come to church. Broken people ( and earful people) need to come to (hopefully) recieve God's grace. If some of the people who attended church in the past came with less than perfect reasons, SO WHAT! They came and hopefully in time were rewarded with spiritual blessings in their lives for it.
The way a younger person can know that the Traditional Latin Mass was better....All you have to do it attend a Traditional Latin Mass (Extrodinary Form of the Mass). You can feel the difference....it is a much more powerful supernatural experience.
Tridentine Mass
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass
I don't want to go back to the Church of 1950. I want to go back to the Church of 1250.
I would like to make this point, however.
I think it is a mistake when more traditional minded people think the Church of the 50's was great and Vatican II ruined everything.
The abuses that followed Vatican II could not have happened, unless the Church was already deeply compromised and shot through with people who dissented from the historic faith. All Vatican II did was give them the excuse and the justification to act out on what they already wanted.
Life in the 60's in the Philippines had not yet been ruined by the spirit of Vatican II. The private Catholic school I went to as a child and the parish were still traditional. It was lovely. I still remember it with yearning.
The missionary Fathers were holy and mysterious. The Sisters were strict but you knew deep down that they were right.
We wore veils to Holy Mass. We were taught to kneel at the beautiful communion rail and you patiently wait for Father to come to you and give you Communion with a sacristan holding a gold communion-plate near your chin.
The importance given to all Sacraments made a great impact on a child's mind. The grown ups dressed modestly.
I did not encounter any fear of fire and brimstone from anyone.
I'm sure people were sinful too back then but they held up a holy standard to live by.
It was a grace-filled time to grow up in.
I needed this uplifting message, thank you Brian.
I’m 79 yrs old in Canada. Cradle Catholic, we okayed our parents, our school teachers and our priest and bishop. That was the culture. We didn’t read the bible; we were told the learned scholars of the church would interpret and guide us.
Then, 20 yrs old in 1964, on my own, no rules and then the Women’s Movement and Freedom.
Breaking free of rules and learning to think for myself. This became my internal career for over 55yrs. Never wanted to return to the church and was not looking.
Then lo and behold I was drawn to some websites. Then others such as Suan Sonna, and yours have taught me what choosing to become a traditional catholic is about.
I want what has been missing in my life for the past 58 years.
You young catholic converts have shown me the way.
The Holy Spirit works in miraculous ways.
Alara
My dad is 83 and tells me stories of how fabulous the church was.
My mother was born in 1962 so my grandmother was a young parent at the time of Vatican II. One of the reasons that I was able to know of and wanting to find a Latin mass was because of the fondness that my grandmother spoke of it. And I am very glad that she did have that experience. In fact, one of the things that I enjoy about the Latin mass is that those around me have a certain air of an older time with respect and family that is severely lacking now. There are many things to long for from the past and our morality and societal standards are certainly among them, despite what many modern and modernistic people like to say. And who cares if people went to church or go to church because they fear Hell or social ramifications? Those are not bad things. These are the spiritual and social guide bars that funnel people into this place where they can hear the word and they can hopefully sit with it long enough for it to wash them.
Here's the problem: Attendence and participation was already in decline before the Council. That trend stretches back into the late 19th century. By the 1950s, the Church already saw the writing on the wall of an increasingly secularized culture and modern worldviews that were pulling people away from the faith. That was part of the whole reason why Vatican II was called! But by the time the Council ended and the reforms were implemented in the 70s, it was too little too late.
I'm not saying that what came out of Vatican II was the absolute best way of addressing the issues, but it's clear that Vatican II was not the main cause of the plummet in Church attendence that we see today.
That was the lie that Vatican II people have fed you
All the important Saints followed the old form, not the new one.
@@aishabintabubakr4944 The numbers don't lie. Also you can't possibly explain the massive boom in Catholics all around the world--especially in Africa--that all took place after the reforms.
The plummet in faith is a specifically western world phenomenon.
@@nicksterwixter
Very true
@@nicksterwixter
I must add that our unpublicized TLM masses (and their are three that do it) have anywhere between 15-40 people in different locations (some from the next state)
People say "Things Changed" and that's why they left the church. But let me tell you why I go to church, every day if I can. I believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, and because I believe that, I can never stop going to Mass no matter how horrible it gets. So all these people who left because things changed, what happened that they just stopped believing in Christ? How could they just walk away from God? Unless they never really believed in the first place and just went to church out of conformity.
I'd like to see a return to The Church of the 1950's but with a bit less Communistic infiltration.
Perhaps the best answer to the argument is to personally live as a traditionalist as a kid in the 80's. homeschooled and a traditional mass server and then move to St. Mary's Kansas to live in this ,"perfect" Latin mass community. Well... what was the result?. In my case.. God was very good to me and I left this community to find a bigger world outside of it.. I still love the old mass and this community but God has helped me realize that there are great saints and salvation that is outside the SSPX and Latin mass ...as well as within it. I was given the grace to love God on His terms... even if King David did have a wardrobe malfunction while jamming on his stringed instrument. God can actually be well pleased with some really strange methods of worship!!!! These MUST include love..
I'm 78 and I can assure you that the faith of the time formed me. I'm a daily Mass goer and can still quote from my Catechism. The pews were full!
The thing with Latin mass and the music and chanting that goes on is the music that comes from those chants is designed through tone to elevate the mind and bring it into communitas with the rest of the congregation. You see this in black churches with gospel music and the call and response those churches employ. Without the ritual aspect of things paired with the liturgy of scripture you don't get the same effect.
It's the one thing that the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches have over a lot of the Protestant sects. From what I can see.
I'm in my 60's .. I am not a "trad "
I only discovered latin mass actually existed during covid when the NO churches shut their doors...( that was a dis grace but I won't digress)
For me its not the latin language itself as much as the reverence respect and worship I observe feel and express during the latin mass that has me wanting to attend the TLM
The latin mass is fully focused on the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross and is not focused on being a community meal like the NO is ...
The priest facing the alter and we all behind him is beautiful ... he is not performing in any way to the congregation .....
The low mass is very quiet and a sung mass very different ... both so beautiful in their own way ..
The English sermons are about catholic teachings and offer formation in the faith . They are not the wishy washy Ecological social justice centred sermons I hear in the NO, where the word Christian has long ago replaced the word catholic...
I use an old missal that has latin on one page English in the other ...
Last week our local Bishop stopped the daily latin mass in a parish church .. for now the sung Sunday Mass can still be held.
It's a huge challenge to stay fully within the Catholic Church when the pope and Bishops are determined to stop such worship .
The TLM is the Catholic heritage catholics are being prevented from accessing if they so choose.
I'm fine with the NO but I'm not fine with being obstructed and having the TLM eventually fully banned.
The SSPX will grow and grow if catholics continue to be persecuted by their own leaders.
Exactly! I have to go to a Norvus Ordo every other week because of my work schedule. The difference in the way I am able to be and to feel reverent is very remarkable. In the Norvus Ordo I feel like I'm always being rushed and there is no time to contemplate and pray. And there is hardly any kneeling. I go ahead and kneel at the Agnus Dei and Sanctus even though everyone else remains standing. Not because I want to show off, but because it shows respect and reverence to God. And besides, if everyone else thinks it's OK to position their hands in a way that is reserved for priests only, then what's the problem if I want to kneel to pray? 😉