Non-binary People Aren't "Women-Light"
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- Опубликовано: 24 май 2023
- Gabe answers Allison's questions about the phrase "women and non-binary people."
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my beef with the "women and nb vs men" phrasing is that it feels like it's just creating new binary to put nb people into
I'm a cis-by-default gal in various queer communities: my frustration comes when organizers (often other cis women) use "no cis men" as a proxy for safety, which is essentialist AF. When I get invited to parties like that I'm so tempted to show up and be super loud and fratty, which is *sometimes* part of my personality, and I'm pretty sure it's not what they want. I'm in community with cis dudes who are *way* less assertive/space-taking/interrupting than I am. It feels very "you don't know me just because I grew boobs."
I love that Gabe can confidently answer "I don't know" to these questions. They are not the spokesperson for all queer/trans people even if they are part of that group. Gender and sexuality identities are ever changing and what fits one person doesn't fit the other. "Go where you're comfortable" is great advice. Keep pushing your comfort zone, some things will stick others won't.
Hi Mariah, how are you doing?
I feel compelled to comment. I ran a Women and Non Binary event at a comic store. The desire was to remove the often intimidating factor of men in these spaces and to encourage community. We had a wide variety of turnout from people on the gender spectrum, including me! There is value in these spaces.
Right! Enbies need spaces away from men too!
This!!!
I never thought of it as something they (the ppl who organise) do bc they feel nb’s are women Light or plus.
It’s a well intentioned but not always accurate way of attracting the right ppl.
Feels like these events in the olden days were “for women” when ppl were more gender normative (in public at least).but now that it’s easier to express oneself there are certain things that won’t go away- i.e the patriarchy. It’s good to have a space without cis het men. And I think what many organisers have experienced is that if you consider the multitude of experiences of nb’s and just write that it’s an open event or something for women or for men - the “wrong” crowd will come. People who are bigots or ppl who are well meaning but know nothing and make especially the queer ppl feel uneasy. Also what you both said about partners getting to go to events “for women” bc they used to go to them before they came out. I’ve seen spaces for trans, nb, gender fluid and intersex that have been a success. But I cannot imagine a space that is “for men and non binary people” if that makes sense…
Yes.
Lmfao you’re bothered by men except the men who just claim “non binary” how silly
so the college i went to before i dropped out (mount holyoke) referred to itself as a “historically all women’s college” which to them meant: you can attend this school if you experience discrimination in academic spaces based on your gender. so while it was most definitely majority women in attendance, there were also lots of non-binary folk as well as binary transgender folk both afab and amab :))
and idk i just like this definition quite a lot, especially for an academic setting such as this
*edit: i should add that this definition is presumably a relatively new one, but the idea is that the school was founded with the principal of allowing women access to higher education, because they weren’t allowed at other institutions, so in the interest of sticking to that principal, they expanded their applicant pool to include anyone who has an academic disadvantage on the basis of gender discrimination
basically no cis-men allowed.
I like the idea of “Feminist” spaces instead of “women’s” spaces. Covers a lot of ground, is open to interpretation, and keeps the toxic men away.
This is super interesting to hear bc I had a friend at Mount Holyoke right when those conversations were starting, it's nice to hear they've ended up in a more inclusive place!
I was recently in a place where the bathrooms signs said "stalls and urinals" and "stalls", which was nice because it totally removed gender and was just like "what do you want to pee into". I think that was the first time I've seen a multi person public bathroom that was gender neutral like that, it's mostly just been single occupancy gender neutral bathrooms.
I will say that I've sometimes seen meetings/spaces advertised as "women, trans, and non binary" and taken it to be sort of a safety thing/an "all oppressed gender identities" thing. I've seen it specifically with activities that can often be really male dominated or intimidating otherwise (bicycle riding/repair groups). That said, I have felt a little weird about them as they are lumping a lot of extremely different experiences together as Gabe said, and sort of assumes a lot about who wants to be in what spaces and who people feel like they belong in affinity groups with in ways that may really not be universal.
I don't feel comfortable in spaces like "women and nonbinary only". To lump me in with women is just as insulting as someone calling me a woman.
I think these groups should be explicitly about shared experiences rather than gender. In most of these settings that I’ve been in, people are looking to meet with others who have had a similar particular experience-for example, a women and nb climbing group is for people with the shared experience of feeling out of place in this particular male dominated space. But other groups that say the same thing are targeting different experiences. For example, I’m a cis woman who gets a period, and it’s nice to commiserate with someone else who shares that experience-that excludes many women and many nb folks, and includes plenty of trans men. Jessica Kellgren Fozard has talked about feeling out of place in spaces that are advertised as mom groups, but start out as primarily a place to talk about the experience of giving birth. These spaces should also exist for men of all kinds-a recent video on Hannah Witton’s channel provided a space for a few men to talk about some of their specific shared experiences. It’s easier to broad strokes specify by gender groups, but I don’t think these groups are really about gender at all, and so trying to pin down “rules” about which genders are welcome is futile. Instead, I think you should ask yourself what shared experiences this group is trying to unite, and whether you have had those experiences.
As an AMAB nonbinary person, I love and appreciate everything they say so much. And Gabe, I’d be honored.
I used to work in an LGBTQ+ org and we had a group for women and nonbinary people and we had plenty of amab people in attendance, both trans women and nonbinary. We also ran a group for men and nonbinary people. We had some nonbinary people that attended both groups regularly. The purpose was to provide spaces for people when align themselves with femininity and people who align themselves with masculinity, while also acknowledging that the lines between them can be fuzzy. We were never able to figure out a better way to communicate the target population than saying "women and nonbinary pwople" and "men and nonbinary people". But people in both groups were always totally welcoming to any person who felt like they belonged there.
in German leftist circles the term "flinta" has emerged which stands for the words for women, lesbians, intersex, non-binary, trans and agender (idk the history of why lesbians get their own letter). So that's basically anyone except cis men. Many peolpe use this term for spaces and events. It reeeeeally depends on the group itself though how inclusive they actually are and if a space is actually free for all flinta or if it gets gatekept from people that are read as male. I'm an afab enby person that mostly gets read as male and I wouldn't feel comfortable going to a flinta space where I don't know the organizers are actually inclusive of all trans people.
I think people place them together because they believe, not so much in “woman light” but more of “these are vulnerable (don’t panic with the word vulnerable, replace it with oppressed, persecuted, awesome, whatever you like) groups let’s place them together”. Of course if your trans masculine and you can clearly pass as a man you may not need that space. Where someone who has just started transitioning, for example, may feel more comfortable there.
As a nonbinary person, thia is the way I see it. I have always been, and will always be, attracted to Gabe.
It’s so hard because I feel like there is a need for these kinds of spaces…cis men often (not always, but OFTEN) take up a lot of space and attention. They don’t always realize they are doing it either.
In those cases, I usually think "everybody except cisgender men (of any sexuality)." But I also feel that intersectional feminists (speaking as one myself) are so afraid of being exclusive to traditionally marginalized peoples, fear being white feminists and TERFS, that they will often not acknowledge the need for women-only spaces (cis and trans, of any sexuality). Non-binary people have different experiences than women and are also entitled to their own spaces. The line I think is crossed when someone else tries to tell you how you identify and deny you access to a space based on that. Yes, there should be women only spaces, and each person can chose to enter or no depending on whether they identify as a woman or no. The same with spaces around being non-binary and other queer identities.
I'm so flexible and happy to further discuss this too. It's just a thought!
Great discussion - I’ve always felt weird about these too but I also appreciate the discussion in the comments. Allison your hair looks so nice and beautiful!
ive seen events organized for "marginalized genders" and thought that was effective enough; woman, and trans people both binary and nonbinary.
extremely keen to hear the pod with River! Yes yes!
I go to a non-binary and women event. We’re not confused by AMAB people. We just want a non man space. We also run a similar queer event for men and non-binary people.
Amab non-binary people aren’t men
As much as I hate that people assume AFAB when it comes to non-binary people, but I also crave queer spaces with less cis people (especially cis men) as an AMAB non-binary person I do get annoyed with people not viewing me as non-binary because I’m not AFAB
I think sometimes these spaces are “women and non binary” coded because there are nb people who identify as lesbians which by (simple) definition is women being attracted to women. I think it’s fair for women & nb people to not want spaces where cis men are there too. I feel like “women +nb” can kinda be an umbrella for anyone who isnt a cis man.
Interesting topic! I sometimes go to a recurring WLW event which also includes NB people. I’m cisgender and female, myself so I was interested in hearing Gabe’s thoughts on this as well❤
very well done both of you. it reminds me of discussions i ve been a part of in nonbinary support groups.
Hey Grayce, how are you doing?
i’m a fem aligned/afab nonbinary person (they/them) so ive always felt seen in these spaces, but this is good for me to keep in mind so i don’t build up any of these stereotypes or prejudices in my mind. thank u both.
i also really appreciated that Gabe mentioned just how individual and nuanced each trans person is in their identity too because there’s so much to consider in what makes an individual feel seen and safe. People’s intersectionality play a huge role in this too-ex, as an Asian person I feel safer in lgbtq and/or fem-aligned spaces bc they typically are also more inclusive of POC
Such an interesting topic! Thank you for sharing your thoughts
Thanks for explaining the full form of AFAB. These terms are new to me and I'm trying to learn
Would love to know your thoughts about college dorms/living spaces like this! There's a huge controversy at my school right now about administration getting rid of the exclusivity of this space and making it open to everyone.
I think it's a good idea not to segregate students on the basis of gender in residential spaces. They learn how to cooperate in day-to-day lives and have a sense of community.
I love River! So excited you’re doing a podcast together!
Hello Andrea, how are you doing?
Lmao my name is River and this comment confused the heck out of me
I just feel like cis people can feel really toxic.
Hello there, how are you doing?
ive never heard anyone else talk about the androgynous dress thing (its probably discussed i just havent come across it) but its something that irks me so bad! thank you for this convo it was very interesting
How do y'all feel about the phrase "people of marginalized genders"?
as a trans man i like this phrasing the most. bc its not exclusive based on body type, sex assigned at birth, or presentation. i also do not think cis men should be 100% excluded, bc what about cis femboys? or drag queens who are cis men? they are definitely marginalized for their fem gender presentation and think they should be included if they want to join. just let the gender conforming cishet men know that this space isn't for them
I recently saw a genderneutral bathroom that was just a room with sinks and stalls and then one door leading to a seperate little room with urinals - best bathroom!
I think the tie is experiences. They are categorizing them as a unit due to highly possible shared experiences
Yeah, this is the tricky part of the whole issue. Even though large portions of society have shifted to a place of _wanting_ to treat people well and make them feel comfortable, it's so hard to understand what that would even look like. Even most people _within_ these communities disagree about what the standards should be, which makes everything so confusing. Some people see this and continue to try their best to adapt, but for a lot of people, adapting is hard and they just get frustrated and nope out of the whole concept. I really think things will only continue to get worse until we can figure out a more uniform set of standards by while polite society is meant to understand all of this, and which can be clearly explained to any grandma. I just worry that it will be a decade or more before any such standardization will occur.
I just have to say that Allison you are glowing😍
I often see spaces that are listed as for "gender minorities" and what they mean is everyone that isn't a cis man. Which like I can understand that. But I also think it is okay to still have women's spaces, those spaces can then be up to who feels comfortable being in those spaces too. Maybe marketed as a women's space but open to those who are comfortable joining that space possibly idk.
In Melbourne I know of some events that are advertised as “for queer women and their allies” and for “trans mascs and their allies.” I think those are great. As a queer woman with a non binary partner, it works very well for us! And I’m sure for people who don’t want to attend events alone but don’t have queer or trans friends yet, it is also really good.
just say for women, queer and trans ppl ...the lengths some ppl go just to exclude most men is insane.
Yesss, like I ask places that say “women and non binary people” why it’s women and non binary people, and it’s nearly always about having a space free of gender oppression, I usually ask them to just say no cis gender conforming men, or women and trans people, if it’s about gender oppression why exclude trans men? (Also fucks me off bc I’m a trans man and most of the gender oppression I get is from cisgengered women (im bedbound disabled so the only people I see a lot of are nurses who are nearly all cis women and transphobia in the nhs here is RIFE and a lot of trans people don’t go into those roles because of it.)
Tangent- also get annoyed that there’s so few spaces for other oppressed groups to have space away from their oppressors, like nearly every disability space online I go is “disabled people and family/carers” were always lumped in with carers and like, who do you think oppresses us most loooool
I've been watching Taskmaster, and it has Mae Martin on this series, who is non-binary and goes by they/them. I also listen to the podcast afterwards, so they talk about the show at length. I don't really have any non-binary people in my life, and they still don't appear on TV much, so I figured it might take a bit of getting used to, but after a while, it'd just come naturally. But I'll be honest, after 9 episodes of watching, it's still a mental effort every time to use they/them when talking about them. I think when someone is presenting as a particular gender, it's fairly easy to just base it on what that person is presenting as. When someone is non-binary, I find it far more difficult to not think of them as one or the other. Obviously in the grand scheme of things my 'struggle' isn't that big a deal, but I just thought I'd mention some of the psychology that's obviously still there, for me at least.
I think the context of "women & nonbinary only" spaces matters a lot. Because to terfs that means "you're only welcome if you have a vagina" Which is obviously exclusive and no groups can be inclusive if it caters to terfs or partake in their ideology.
When they say "All women and afab nonbinary people are welcome" that translates to "We're okay with trans women, but we still view afab nonbinary people as women and don't want them here if they look *too* masc. We want this to be a femme and mild androgynous space"
What those spaces are aiming for is "You're welcome here if you experience patriarchy in a way cis men can't and don't" but I don't there's been enough time to make something that feels overall inclusive of anyone who isn't a cis man. People still feel erased by LGBTQIA2S+ and SGM (sexual and gender minorities) People under the nonbinary umbrella feel erased in nonbinary spaces that aren't actually inclusive of anyone who doesn't identify specifically as nonbinary. You can pick any part of the community and find people who feel erased, unseen, or unheard.
As for trans men in "women's" spaces... I think people forget that this is a relatively new debate. One that wasn't as widespread even a decade ago. Trans men have been a part of women/lesbian spaces for centuries. If you look at any part of lesbian or women's activism in the past century you're going to find trans men involved.
Is there one definitive label that works for everyone? No. There can't be and never will be. Tbh I think the solution is if you feel included in those spaces be in those spaces. If you feel erased in those spaces don't enter those spaces. Make your own spaces. Work with local spaces to be more inclusive.
Interesting points!
Hey Claudia, how are you doing?
Gender is confusing. If we're expanding the "definitions" of male and female so much so that it can basically look like anything, and gender is a social construct anyways.. then what even is female/male? Are those even useful terms?
But on the other hand I know some people feel strongly connected to a gender and it's very important to them and I wouldn't want to deny their experience.
It is confusing because social constructs are both real and not real. How do we navigate that?
interested to hear ! I wanted to do a womens event and got told i Should include nb people - so yes intersted to hear this take!
Okay, as someone who runs a women and non binary people group specifically for neurodivergent people, I'd like to say that I don't see enbies as 'women-light'. It was originally a women's group. We opened it up to nonbinary people because, like, where are the neurodivergent spaces for non-binary people?? Pretty sure they don't exist! Neurodivergent groups are hard to come around too. I know a lot of ND women feel intimidated by groups with majority men, which is why women's groups are created. I think there should be spaces for ND nonbinary people away from men too. And our group is open to amab people as well, I might add 🤨
Also I feel like there are a lot of people that kinda fit in the space between women and nb, (especially when we're talking about ND people) including myself, and it's been useful to have these joined spaces.
I think it's because we (society) think of gender as being "men" and "not men." Men are the default and everyone else is the variant.
Really interesting conversation and not one with a clear solution. I understand why there are female/women-only spaces and the thought behind now having women-and-nonbinary-only spaces. I think it comes down to intention and whether they are including who they are intending to include versus being exclusive by having too many biases and assumptions. Example: are they intentionally excluding all men (both trans and cis) or did they just use that language to try and get only people assigned female at birth?
Personally, I am in the camp of being a trans man that would not go to an event that is "anyone except cis men", much less one that was "anyone but men". To me there is this underlying assumption that I will be different from a cis man and so I am "not as much of a threat" because I was born female, which gives me the ick a bit. I've also had people be uncomfortable with how masculine I am or that I "feel like a guy" (an actual critique someone gave me in a queer space once) so I often just don't feel welcome in those particular spaces.
This is very interesting, especially the part about trans non-binary people who used to be part of certain gendered communities and that aspect of wanting to attend an event you’ve attended for years. Like, it’s definitely very nuanced and 100% should be handled on a case by case basis. Also, personally I do gravitate towards Women and Nonbinary People Things because in my head that means “NO MEN” and sorry boys but that is always a huuuge plus.
I am part of a kind of women and non-binary community, although it's women, trans and non-binary people. We definitely consider and welcome amab's, we didn't disregard them in the slightest and we're very happy for them to join... Providing they aren't cis men, because excluding them is what it's actually about.
What is the theme of this community?
@@sexyscientist Cannabis consumption
@@shadearistotle1136 Woah! I wasn't expecting this, but yeah, why not!
I see what you mean but when do you decide on someone's behalf if someone is an AMAB person who is 'too cis.'
I am always confused when women and the lgbtq community get lumped together in issues/spaces because while yes, they are both groups that may be vulnerable/experience discrimination they are very different, and there are a lot of homophobic/transphobic women that don't make those spaces safe/comfortable for queer people.
Hello Jane, how are you doing?
In german speaking countries they started doing a thing called FLINTA (women, lesbians, inter, nb, trans, agender). But it has the same problems women and nbs does and keeps getting used in the wrong contexts. (Eg. I only date FLINTAs??) I guess if its like specific help for marginalized genders you could just all it that but otherwise its weird to lump all these categories together.
My feelings about this are complicated because I totally understand the issue with flattening and generalizing nonbinary people as woman-light and can be exclusive to AMAB nonbinary people & transmascs but my gender is essentially woman-lite? Like not all nonbinary people are woman lite but like some of us kind of are? I think a lot of the time what people need to say is this space is for marginalized genders or is for peope who identify as lesbians (which can include enby people) or evsn just for anyone whos not a cis man, rather than making it more complicated
I'd like to add to the discussion the idea of welcoming gender "minorities" into patriarchy conscious spaces like ABCD event that are communicating : "Hi, we know patriarchy is everywhere all the time, were going to try to have less of it here at this time".
Loving these videos!! You two are the best dynamic. Sorry to Melissa, but we want just you two.
This is like FLINTA or TINFA spaces, various people feel unwelcome in those spaces. I as a non-conforming person rarely feel super welcome choosing like non-binary/other gender tickets. I have some very masc presenting aspects, and some femme presenting aspects. Actually in specifically Non-binary spaces I've felt more welcome.
I think there's several different types of spaces that are trying to be set up:
1. Spaces that welcome everyone
2. Fully queer spaces (potentially with allies)
3. Spaces sans Cis Men
4. Spaces for people who have experienced the world, being perceived as a woman: so women + anyone afab.
The 4th space is definitely not for me. The 1st and 2nd spaces I can attend no worries. Whereas the 3rd spaces is one that makes it awkward for me because I have to figure out what their intentions are, am I non-binary enough as someone who is non-conforming with a fluid gender-presentation for this event? Do they actually want this to be the 4th space but they worded it wrong, because they still have internalised gender essentialism?
For amab enby people it's tricky on that front sometimes, but there's enough spaces for me right now where I'm at.
Doesn't it depend crucially on what the purpose of the space, event, or community is?
For instance, if it is to build coalition around being discriminated against on the basis of gender, include women and trans and non-binary people. If it's for folks who are excluded from a particular community on the basis of gender, include or center them. If it's about folks feeling safe at a club, have a no cis men night. Perhaps there's even room for spaces to talk about the fallout/harm/trauma of being assigned female at birth, which includes only afab people (not sure). Not that this is an easy or quick fix, but maybe we just need to be more thoughtful, have more conversations, and develop more language around the purposes of our spaces.
i think sometimes when ppl say a space is for "women & nonbinary ppl" what they really mean is "ppl of marginalized genders" and that's such a dumb-sounding phrase, but like tbh i just wish ppl said what they ACTUALLY meant
I wish we could just say "this space is not for cis men." It's the cis men I don't know that make me feel uncomfortable. I don't have that problem with trans people (regardless of what they were assigned at birth). But cis men are snowflakes and their little feelings can't be hurt, so we have to talk around it.
I'm agender, AFAB, and perceived as a woman.
I don’t tend to seek out women's spaces but I'll go to them unless the group is about being a woman or says it's only for people who "identify as a woman". If a group specifies that nonbinary people are included then I'll have zero qualms about going.
So I'm a bit confused here does that mean you're both just a letter if so which letter are you ? Because you haven't said
Thank you. I'm a non-binary asexual communist, but I'll always avoid spaces explicitly labeled for "women and non-binary." Mostly because I use they/them/he. But I'd also avoid spaces labeled for "non-binary and men," tbh 🙃
Lol what does being a communist have to do with anything?
@@Ashweee110 so long as we exist under the capitalist exploitation of the cis white supremacist patriarchy, it has to do with everything.
I am a long time international subscriber. It's a bit difficult for me to follow all these nuanced view about gender and how someone define themselves.
Could be because where I am from, the discussion about gender is not as open as America, but also the culture is generally very gender normative.
I am still in process to fully understand about the Non Binary and other topic about gender view. But regardless, if identifying themselves as Non Binary or whatever makes them happy, then I will respect and support them!
Women should have their own spaces period
I think the desire with a lot of 'women and nonbinary' spaces is basically to have a place that is free from cis men, and I think that those spaces are really valuable and essential. But absolutely, I think so many people are only expecting AFAB nonbinary people in those spaces, and are still excluding AMAB nonbinary people, or are viewing AFAB people as women in a way. I think it should depend on what the purpose of the event/space is. I think, for example, 'true neutral' gender-neutral bathrooms, which allow cismen, aren't actually very helpful. I personally feel very uncomfortable with that. I think you need places that cis men cannot enter.
IDK. I get the point about wanting your own spaces and all but actively excluding men (only CIS men or also gay?) only shows your prejudices IMO, wether you think it's justified or not,. It's not like the types who could be "problematic" would ever attend such events.
I feel like what they are actually trying say is "having a vagina is not required".
Me finding out River Butcher transioned
I'm now more confused than when i started watching the video. Not even sure if it's a good or a bad thing. 😅
I hate how in society androgynous equals assigned female at birth person in "masculine" clothing. First of all, clothes don't have a gender. Second, why is "vaguely masculine" the standard for androgyny? Like Gabe said, wearing a dress isn't considered androgynous, it's considered femme. I'm not femme, I'm not masc, I'm not andro, and where does that leave me? Oh right, doing my own thing as usual, until society is able to catch up to the fact that these roles are oppressive, and they fall out of use.
I think people are just trying to say no cis men (the privileged majority) and/or no cishet men without directly saying it because of legalities they can't be "prejudice" (not saying this is what I think but saying what those in power would say about it)... eg clubs on campuses can't omit people from joining but you have to use language in a way where they aren't directly saying only certain people are welcome to make safe spaces for people in marginalized or underprivileged communities
My gripe with some of these comments is so many folks conflating non-binary with trans. Nb is not applicable to all trans ppl - thinking of trans guys here. Instead of working with now three gender categories and keeping things in boxes, find an umbrella term that encapsulates all folks marginalized as a result of their gender identity.
Reading some of these comments where it's summed up as "oh no, we just want to specifically exclude cis men" feels like it's not better..? I don't understand exclusion of any type.
So, no shade a genuinely don’t understand if things are so fluid why do we need to define ourselves? Why can everyone not be “Gabe a person who is attracted men and women and likes to present themselves masculine, may or may not want to surgically alter whatever ..everything subject to change” like what even is a man or a women.
What about just no straight cis men or transphobes allowed
It's that easy, very basic and to the point, but as a straight guy I'm very aware that we hate being excluded so there would be a LOT of dudes who would try to invade the space just for the sake of it
Yeah I wish my local monthly meet up would just say this instead of pretend to be inclusive of cis straight men. A bunch of them came to the recent event and that totally changed the space for me.
I'm an amab non-binary person.
L ouvê Allison
I think I have a hard time understanding how/why Gab says that he used to be a woman. Does that mean your gender is entirely a choice and not an inherent trait you were born with? I would appreciate an explanation to get a better understanding of your experience :) or anyone else who can relate, feel free to add to the conversation!
Hi! Also transmasc, and my experience is that can mean a) The time in my life when I publicly and/or privately identified as a woman (because sometimes people come out to themselves later in life) b) someone has experienced fluidity or changes in their gender identity over time or c) someone is referencing their experiences being AFAB and being socialized as female, which shaped them for a large portion of their lives. For example, I still get misgendered as female on the daily, so the world treats me as a woman and that really shapes my experience of gender and my understanding of women’s life experience. But everyone’s relationship with their gender is different!
"all kinds of women want to be at a women only event" but like... not *all* women. (or vice versa for men) Probably? Like, do all women want to go to women only events, and all men want to go to men only events? I'm sure it can be useful to have a space sometimes for people who share your experience... but shared experiences go beyond gender, and some people may find more in common in mixed gender groups that focus on another 'thing'. Plus a lot of gendered spaces also seem to define what that 'gender' means for this space. A space for women can be advertised with pink flowers and cocktails, or a sexy curves dance workshop, or dungarees and DIY. And even if you're a woman who'd generally like a women only space you'd only sign up for the space that actually appeals to you (which may be none of the above). Sure, pink flowers and cocktails is a sexist trope, but like... some women are into that, so having a pink cocktail party is cool. (And so are some men and nonbinary people ofc.) So I guess similarly you could have gendered events that are open to women and nonbinary people, but in practice that means only nonbinary people who feel like they'd somehow fit in with a bunch of women (whatever that means to them) will actually sign up. Idk, rambly thoughts.
One thing I've seen is an event being open to all genders officially but then adding a "but if you're a cis man, let us know ahead, cause usually it's mostly women/nonbinary people". Like... do you actually *want* to be open to all genders? Cause that sounds uninviting to men AF. It's like "yeah, on paper we'll let you in and take your money... but actually we think you're inherently a problem". If a cis man signs up to your pink cocktail party there's a good chance he's pretty chill with gender roles and stuff. And if you specify your event is open to all genders then all the women/nonbinary people signing up know there might be some men, they don't need extra warning if one actually shows up. There's enough strictly women/nonbinary only pick cocktail parties if someone wants no men.
I think it depends on the purpose of the group. If the purpose is internal support within the group and it is an emotional support thing, such as trauma survivors or something, then I think it’s fine to have a women’s space assuming all women/femmes are embraced and similar groups are available for other gender affinities, although my personal preference would be for more gender inclusive groups. Because in this case it is providing a sense of safety and comfort for those involved and not actively oppressing those excluded. If the purpose is to externally support (such as scholarships, nonprofit programs, financial assistance, health clinics, awards, networking, etc.) then it matters that the category of women excludes a more marginalized gender identity group: gender expansive people. This is because excluding marginalized people from social/financial support deepens the oppression of trans, nonbinary, agender, and other gender expansive people and that is not okay. It is tricky because “women” are more marginalized than “men” as a category, but gender expansive people are more marginalized than “women” as a category. I feel like a good solution is spaces for marginalized gender identities including women and anyone else whose gender is marginalized (similar to non cis-male spaces but a important distinction in language because someone may still be identifying as cis-male but be questioning their gender or be expansive in expression and they deserve to be in the community too). FoR trans-masc nonbinary/gender queer
2 years ago there was a Queer Sorority advertising with the slogan "all inclusive, all expressions welcome". When I checked it out I was told any gender could join except for cis men. I'm a cis gay man who was going through homophonic othering in my majors department and it did seem really unfair that there was still exclusion in an "all inclusive" organization that dangled the hope of community in front of me. I didn't want to live in a sorority house with them or anything either I lived in he dorms but it was just full stop no you're a man so no and I felt that when Gabe said "women lite her pronouns are they"
Haven't watched this channel in a few year. Yall don't do funny and silly anymore? Cuz I thought that was yalls brand.
Gabe's story at 6:37 is incredibly shallow thinking.
One of the best JBU episodes and the whole world needs to see this. One of my fav quotes I've heard recently was , "nice gender loser! Did some colonized dead white guy give it to you?"😂
As someone AMAB non-binary feminamoric, I appreciate your saying this. I present male (though when I fix some situations I'll strive for greater androgyny), and will refer to my past as "back when I still tried to be male," but it gets odd sometimes, sure. It's also hard for ppl to see me and remember to use neutral pronouns, so I'm likely to say "I prefer they/them, but I won't complain if you use he/him now and then." I'm starting to think maybe I shouldn't to that, though, as it downplays the importance of enby as legitimate, so maybe I should just stick with "I'm Fern, they/them," and only if they start apologizing will I reassure them that I understand and appreciate the effort, because I know it can take some getting used to.
But I will not be peeing on the floor.
Not everyone should be able to vote.
Harry Styles doesn’t dress femme, he dresses clown.
imagine talking for 10 minutes and saying nothing. #identitycrisiscommunity