fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one second of we don't talk about cawl here Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions. We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous. They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person. Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert. Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint. If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.
Warhammer 40K metaphysics are simply originated from the dualism between Materium & Immaterium, Emperor tried to balance the psychic and physical qualities of humanity but as Live! From Black library channel guy said: His works are so rushed and unnecessarily secretive even among the Imperium humanity allies that causes Emperor's projects in shambles The hubris of Emperor's pasts during Unification Wars, Great Crusade and Horus Heresy are ironically absolved by his successors regardless of the Imperial Cult or Chaos-oriented ones, they will be instrumental in repelling Tyrannids, mending the Dark Eldar to be less sadistic with new beacons, giving Necrons more 'humane' purposes to unified themselves, all while threatening Imperial Cult's status quo to enact The End Times, The King in Yellow also are opposed by those in Imperial Cult's bureaucracy and administrations which already rotting for 10.000 years and further after Age of Apostasy, Months of Shame, etc The End Times in Warhammer 40K will end with both bang and whimper, or at least as series of Implosions from the legacies of War in Heaven and Dark Age of Technological marvels, meanwhile Trazyn, Vulkan, Farsight and Cegorach are breakdancing and dabbing surrounding his magnificent historical collections to the dismay of soyfaced clone Fulgrim (with real lesser warp god soul of his own) are seething in confusion and laughter as all of them seeing all of Undivided Chaos, 99.99% of Imperium's worlds, all of Xenos factions and Tyrannids' Hivemind destroying each other in The End Times of Warhammer 40K
yeah Cawl and Bile are like Human mirrors of the Necrons and Dark Eldar. when I saw some of Bile's creations, I immediately thought of the works of the Drukhari Homunculi and their fleshcraft abominations. and many Skiitari are almost as mindless as Necron Soldiers, and Cawl himself is almost entirely mechanical at this point, he even has a body plan shared with some Cryptek Lords.
@@nicholai7300let's hope not. Although I don't mind another grand war that leads the Traitors to Terra again. They need to finish HH, The Scowering, and do some novels of The Dark Age of Tech.
my first exposure to Fabius Bile was in that Warhammer Inquisitor game (i personally recommend it) and thought he was ok as an antagonist. After reading the Fabius Bile omnibus, I realized just how dirty they did him in the game. Dude in the books did not give a single fuck about anyone or anything but his children or "new men" which was weirdly nice to read.
How was it power of friendship? He just used a discarded android as a distraction before shooting the cryptek. The android just happened to be part of an old experiment to recreate his old friend.
@@MrPublikus from the mouth of Cawl himself ‘my dear alien monster… you underestimate the utility of friendship, Friedish will do anything for me, even when he’s dead’ I mean yes it was a robot, but it sure felt like the power of friendship lol
@@MrPublikus this was my first time reading anything with Cawl in it. Aside from the Dark Imperium trilogy and he just didn’t impress me very much. I found him to be kind of annoying. But that’s just my bias! I’m sure lots of people felt otherwise
@@TheBasedCoat yes he said that... but it was grandstanding and bullshit. He did what he had decried her for and monologued when he should have fired... it nearly killed him!
I believe Bile is only comparable now, as he doesn't restrict his studies to what is deemed acceptable, if Cawl were to do the same and fully embrace the study of xenos tech and become a true heretic then Cawl would absolutely become smarter and gain more knowledge.
I'd also give a comparison similar to Lex Luthor and Tony Stark. One is much more intellectual and enabled in what they do while the other, Fabius, is all about fighting for those resources/ingredients and making something out of them like a box of scraps.
I like Cawl a bit more than Bile because he seems to be one of the more sane people in power in the galaxy. Don't get me wrong, Cawl has done evil things, he's weird and very egotistical, but he seems to be pushing the Imperium forward towards technological progress and overall improvement, whether the Imperium wants it or not. Cawl seems to be doing some actual good for the Imperium and I find that far more intriguing than Bile just being another sadistic, twisted mad scientist in the extreme.
Cawl had a much larger impact on the current setting. Helping resurrect Gilliman, creating the new primarius, inventing new weapons for war. Even more so, he is a pragmatist, where Bial is a perfectionist. His inventions has saved countless lives and more than just imperial citizens. Ragnar blackmane lives because he crossed the Rubicon, the only space marine, no, the only thing to ever 1 v 1 Ghazgul Thraka and win. This is only a single example, the value of his existence in the current setting is of far more importance than Bial, who has pretty much been off doing fuck all.
I'd say Fabious is more creative, but more pridefull, very simplified using his thesis to prove- or disprove an athithesis. Cawl is a bit more stuck on roads already travelled (even though most of those roads are unknown). However also does more Synthesising; Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis- or a new Thesis. Kinda like early Budism or the Hegelian Dialectic. So I'd say Cawl is smarter now, but Fabious has more potential? Armchair philosophy here, but that's what we do here.
I like the comparison between these two! Especially since they are characters I'm not deeply versed with. However. I could've done without the "Who is tha bestest" framing of it. It just furthers amplifies the already rampant polarization and comparative perspectives in society. Online as offline. Though that's just me. Still. Great video. But could've done without the framing. PS! 12:34 How do you know the technology behind the Pharos device is what was used by Necrons in the war in heaven?! This is something I've never even heard referenced! PPS! You haven't heard that time, and space for that matter, moves differently in the warp? There's several examples of that. At least in Horus Heresy. Horus when he gets his chaos powers. Starships when they enter the warp and spends longer or shorter time there than transpires in real space. 10k years is long. But it' still well established that time in the warp is practically irrelevant as a concept.
Its from cawl's book the great work which plays into genefathers plot. And the warp traditionaly speeds up time, I've never read an example of it slowing it down unless you count the very rare example of going backwards in time which I believe has happened twice, maybe three times in canon.
@@weshammer Ah, that's right! Got sped up and slowed down reversed in my head. Also forgot for a moment that the books you were talking about were set in the 40k Which makes what you're saying make sense! 😅 Though I would say time being relative in the warp is plausible with the perpetuals, scattering of the primarchs and "river of time" mentioned in the Crimson King. But I think you're right that the author just made a mistake considering how brief the mention was! Man. You have an annoyingly good eye for detail!
I would say Cawl, being an expert in every field of science I stead of just genetics. Saying that he also is more like a self contained research team since he regularly splits off subconscious to work on problems he doesn’t want to fully thing about
Cawl became one of my favorite characters. Hes just so delightfully arrogant yet can somehow back it up. Its great! Also that he intentionally retains his humanity is a great twist to the usual Mechanicum philosophies.
This. I love that cawl doesn’t praise the mechanicus to the point where he thinks new technology is heresy and believes most of the mechanicus are morons. The only thing I really dislike about the character, is his looks. I think he’s just one of the ugliest, stupid, looking character in all of 40k. Nothing about him looks cool at all.
Yes I think for Cawl always appreciated the human desire to achieve and he didn’t want to lose that piece… really just his internal drive to continue to be great. He wants to shape the future by creating. Rediscovering will not make him happy
I think there is one feat that is forgotten about Bile. In the book, "Black Tide" bile hides his facility on a tyranid world using a zoanthrope's pheromones to confuse where he was located.
@@qwaeszrdxtfcgvbqwaeszrdxtf5733 I think he means a world being 'occupied' by Tyranids (like how a soldier would 'occupy' an enemy outpost on their way through hostile territory.)
@@woohoogdo The question isn't 'could' he, the question is *WOULD* he? Even for Cawl that sounds a bit Much to ask. Wouldn't he had rather glassed the planet, then dug a hole in the remaining rock?
I gave the edge to Cawl just bc he has to work with a guillotine over his head. He's always either hiding or dumbing down his work for fear of being labeled a heretic by Gman or the mechanicus. We see Bile's unrestricted peak. We dont know what Cawl's is.
Agreed, and that's a good way to put it. Cawl is a one man cabal with the amount secrets he keeps from his peers, his general long-term goal causes him to innovate and create and it seems generally like a good thing; Bile's long term goal has him travelling world to world flaying and torturing whatever life he can find... Even if his goal of creating a race to supercede humanity is ultimately meant to be for the greater good, all he has done so far is make perfect fuel for the chaos gods to feed on.
And after a hour later Bellsarius comes back and says, "Your Machine had proven incable of handling my designs." Translation: it took me an hours to crash the game. it would of been shorter but I have better things to do.
Cawl would absolutely make the most insanely efficient, self-reliant factory imaginable in like a hour, maybe two if he is doing something else at the same time.
Half of Modern medicine is feat of engineering tbh. There is the biology factor in it, but to maintain sterile systems and biomonitoring systems of today, we need extensive engineering. There's even a bachelor's degree thats associated with it. It's called biomedical engineering. On the flip side, we have biology entering engineering today, with biomimetic design taking the forefront to modifying and developing our current engineering systems. From compliant mechanisms in biomechanics to studying communication between ants in a colony to model swarm behavior for drones and studying deep sea bioluminescent creatures to further develop optical fibre tech, biology and engineering are getting together more than ever.
Its interesting how Cawl, the man sworn into a faith where a core tenant is to not innovate, is himself one of the most innovative people in the galaxy. And then Bile, powered by chaos and change, struggles to make more than copies of imperfection.
He was from the time Innovation was still in gray area. Not to say mechanicus fully outlaw innovation, if one could point to something proven and prove the advancement came from that then it is okay😅 Also, undercover researches never stopped. Really high ranking magus wouldn't care about the rules all that much
My brother in christ, please go actually read the books for yourself before spouting nonsense. Fabius Bile is an atheist and probably the only marine left in existence that actually adheres to the imperial truth. He is certianly not "powered by chaos", and he doesn't struggle to make copies of imperfection, he can literally produce perfect clones of every Primarch. He just doesn't do it because he did it for Fulgrim and then changed his mind saying "the age of gods and monsters is over" before trading Fulgrim away to Trazyns collection.
On the topic of innovation, Cawl is so far ahead of the rest of his "peers" that it wouldn't be hard for him to reverse engineer xenos tech and build it so it looks nice and _Standard_ , then say it's an STC that he found in some far off cave on a dead planet. I think Cawl would argue that innovation is neccessary, not only for humanity but to keep himself occupied, of course humanity has completely twisted the original creed of the imperium, worshipping big E as a god when it's the opposite of what he wants, so in that regard Cawl would see innovation as an integral part to worshipping the Omnissiah even if the greater imperium sees it as heresy- because they're idiots, and I (Cawl) am a gigagenius chad scholar. Bile's goal is interesting and I admire that he rejects the ruinous powers completely, but he is an extremely twizted fella even without boons from the chaos gods. I think Cawl would beat him if they had to square up, they're both geniuses and physically nothing to scoff at, but neither are primarchs and Cawl is utterly chromed out with all his augments and dendrites. Like a comment from @Paradise2003 below this chain said "We see Bile's unrestricted peak. We dont know what Cawl's is."
Fair, maybe he can't repeat endless perfect Primarch clones, but seeing as he did an imperfect cloning of Horus followed by a perfect cloning of Fulgrim, it's fair to say he can reliably recreate Primarchs, even if they wouldn't go on a whole redemption arc like Fulgrim did. It does however piss me off that most lore youtuber just say whatever and the people in the comments talk even more nonsense without actually having any knowledge about the lore. Saying Fabius Bile is "powered by chaos" is ludicrous and saying that he's struggling to copy others is BS as well, as he managed to create a new lifeform out of Astartes geneseed, Eldar DNA and Human DNA that can naturally reproduce and kill a space marine 1v1 while the space marine is armed and they are naked.@@eliasmagus5086
(Spoilers) Man the book was really good. I was scared for what the ending could be as I went through it. Bile might be smarter but Cawl knows what he is fighting for. He is fighting for humanity, his friends, his family. With the Great Work it gave me the vibe that Cawl saw all of the primas marines as his sons but Alpha Primas is his first born and actually is his son. It’s interesting to see Cawl be ever so lonely and has remade his best friend and has a made a son and both are fed up with his shit.
If you're giving an edge for clarity of vision, they're also tied there. Cawl gets the monologue at the end, but it echoes what Bile had already been saying throughout the book.
@@Mondy667I’m on the 3rd book now myself, but it’s odd that Bile’s visit there is all in the past. Almost like there’s a side quest/book in between. It’s explained well enough, but it feels like there should be a novel there..
its kinda hinted that alpha Primus is a mix of a handful of traitor primarchs, bile claims he “senses the presence of the Cyclops” after Primus almost kills him with his psychic powers while personality wise he acts quite a lot like a form a Perty
fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one second of we don't talk about cawl here Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions. We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous. They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person. Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert. Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint. If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.
I love their interactions in Genefather. And it basically boils down to Bile saying, 'oh when you tinker with the emperor's work in a lab paid for by the imperium you're a hero, but I have to play chop shop Bob out here and do better work, I'm a monster'
Cawl has more resources, but he's stuck trying to keep the rotting and doomed superstructure of the Imperium going. Bile's plan with the New Men has none of those resources, but it appears to be working completely independently of his influence and limited resources. I give it to Fabulous Bill, not for the skill or capacity of either character, but for the simple fact that Cawl is on a sinking ship and Bile is not.
The way Porter moves and fights is so sick. She must have the calorie intake of a small farm. But the way she's built makes it read like she's one of the fastest individuals in the setting.
IIRC all iterations of the new men were designed to be 100% capable of breeding with all forms of baseline humanity (not sure if abhumans as well) with all the children being born as new men. This is why there has been issues of entire populations of new men springing up on planets. So not really an issue of extermination so much as (sorta) forced and rapid evolution.
Well if we consider that The Emperor had a whole team and unlimited ressources when creating the Primarchs Biles's work on cloning them is unparalleled but his stubbornness in not including warp base tech in his bio-engineering in a setting where the soul has so much impact must be in someway hurting his progress.
Did he have a whole team for the Primarchs? He had one for the spare marines which struck me as odd considering he created the Custodes first (before the Thunder Warriors) and they are superior to the space marines. But I always thought the Primarchs were the product of very few, with a great deal of personal input by the Emperor himself.
@@RichardStrong86 well actually in First Heretic Argel Thal is sent back in the past by the Chaos Gods to visit the laboratory of the Primarch project and he describes whole teams of scientist working on it and in Saturnine we learn that part of the Primarch DNA comes from a perpetual named Erda so he was not alone on those works
I'd have to say Cawl, hands down is smarter. While Fabius is getting knowledge from different clones of himself, the knowledge he gains would be biased in Fabius's favor. I.E. seeing things from the same angle. Meanwhile Cawl's soul transference is him getting knowledge from different perspectives and angles. There is bias, but different kinds of bias from different sources, counteracting each other. I'd also like to point out Cawl is basically processing multiple selves at the same time, like actively working on multiple projects at the same time with the same mind, meanwhile Fabius has split minds that might be linked by wraithbone, but at the end of the day... Fabius is like a colony of ants and his original form is the queen so to speak that directs the hive. Cawl is more like.. well... a computer with many different processes running on it.
@@fmlAllthetime The point I was trying to make was the intelligence of Fabius is spread out across multiple versions of himself, separate instances so to speak. With Cawl its basically all in one to the point where he has to occasionally delete parts of his memory to make room for new memories. I'd say memory does play a part in intelligence in this manner I think Cawl definitely has Fabius beat. I don't think Fabius has had to delete his own memory just to make room for more lol.
Wouldn't that mean Cawls retention is worse by definition? @@winterwolf1250 Idk how Fabius wouldn't have to do the same shit considering how old he is, but ain't no one ever accused 40 k of making actual sense.
I adore the end of Genefather as it focuses on the values of love and respect, which was a very pleasant surprise. Especially Bile, a being so evil and monstrous, is still allowed to have positive traits and moments where you see a kinder side of him. And Cawl is ironically one of the most human characters in all of 40k. Especially his relationship with his friend/boyfriend Friedisch is just heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time.
This seems as good a place as any to mention my pet tinfoil hat theory which is that what took Bile aback when he managed to examine Alpha Primus' genes wasn't that Cawl tried to make a homebrew Primarch as many speculate but rather it is that Cawl bootlegged the Grey Knight's method of artificially making a Blank to make the first viable Blank/Psyker Hybrid (as all Primarchs are implied to be inherently tied to the Warp), albeit one only barely held together by a dash of Vulkan's Perpetual Genes. Something that can wield the warp but is simultaneously immune to Chaos' influence? That is something that would get Bile's attention I think. It would also explain the reason Primus is constantly in pain (his Blank side is constantly annihilating the Psyker part of his soul, the damage being healed at a similar rate by his Vulkan-sourced Perpetual Genes). This constant annihilation and regeneration of the soul is also why it is "loose" in Primus' body. I know as a theory it has its flaws but it does seem pretty cool in concept to me at least!
Bile is a perfect example of "Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough". There is something else to be considered other than pure intelligence and that is wisdom. And I think Cawl has that many times over Bile. sm
both Fabius Bile & Belisarius Cawl re very smart in there own craft, and one of them has something more the other does not . Belisarius Cawl is more focused in Gene manipulation and necron tech . Fabius Bile is on Gene manipulation and Eldar tech . tho Belisarius Cawl does that thing where he expand his knowledge by merging diff minds from other scientists a very risky procedure bc you dont know what mind will take over , so far B Cawl has won these battles having the strongest personality , so in my mind there is no question here Belisarius Cawl is the smarter one (sry about my English not my first or second language)
💯 B Cawl is the smartest one. Not to take away anything from Bile but Cawl is the superior scientist with knowledge and memories from multiple other very smart ppl
I have read books about bile and Cawl . They re different they do focus in 2 different xeno techs and do have a lot of similarities but Cawl has multiple minds of few of the smartest ppl of the Imperium
fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one second of we don't talk about cawl here Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions. We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous. They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person. Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert. Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint. If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.
@@whiteeye9584 not everyone is going to like him. 2 Ain't reading all that 3 there is a simple solution if you don't like something in the 40k books just don't read it. Read what you enjoy the most
Fabius Bile is one of my favorite 40K characters. He embodies the mad scientist trope really well (not to mention the fact that his TTS counterpart is just f*cking awesome! xD)
Cawl is like a huge swiss army knife / a giant toolbox on space steroids. Whereas, Bile is more like a surgical tool set, also on space steroids. The former is super useful in a truly vast range of applications but if you need to deal with flesh and blood, then you are better off getting the latter
For me Cawl is the clear winner. Not due to his intellect but through his humor. After listening to both the Great Work and Genefather, the guy is absolutely hilarious and i love him.
when did fabius come to the mindset that the new fulgrim would do the same as the original? from what i read. the emperors children were straight up ready to redeem themselves because he was perfect. he was their primarch without taint. an bile got rid of him for that very reason.
It’s left up to interpretation why he did it. Reading the book I came to the conclusion that he was genuinely scared of what a united emperor’s children could become, worried that the new Fulgrim would be manipulated, and overall entrenched in his philosophy that it is better to create than fix what is broken
@@texasallstar6969 Not Perfect, nothing is ever good enough to be perfect. The emperor’s children weren’t perfect even at the height of the great crusade. Another theory I have is that the real Fulgrim would attempt to kill the fake Fulgrim, drawing too much attention to bile and overall just being a bad incident for everyone involved
If you haven't read it, Wolfsbane is primarily a space wolf and Leman Russ Horus Heresy novel, but Cawl features heavily in it, and its actually the events in Wolfsbane that lead to his backstory in The Great Work.
All I am saying is that if these two are the greatest minds in the galaxy then it is no wonder galaxy is the shit show it is. One treats personalities like they are pokemon and the other could not contain his own ego in one body. Really each of them is just a half of Trazyn.
The First Heretic: Argel Tal and the other Word Bearers spent 7 months in the warp while from Lorgar and the others waiting for them outside the warp, it was 60 seconds…. It’s not uncommon or odd in any way at all! Loved this one though, keep it up brother!
I really wanted Trazyn to make an actual appearance (besides just a mention) in the novel. He has interacted with and assisted/stood against both Bile and Cawl at various points in their history; another link and similarity between these rivals.
I recently finished reading the Fabius Bile omnibus, and it made me a huge fan of Bile, and I recommend everyone here check out those books. A little bit of everything in them.
I think saying "Who's smarter, Cawl or Bile" is like asking "Which is tastier, pizza or strawberries" because the answer is going to be "yes." They've got very different specialties and they're impressively skilled at those specialties. Not that either one would admit it.
It’d be interesting if Cawl ends up working alongside Tau at some point, making use of their AI knowledge to further his own implementation of it, and in turn some of them actively become his disciples. Regardless of what you think about the Tau, their growth is absolutely insane, and just think about what they could be capable of with even a fraction of the knowledge Cawl could teach them
One of the key indicators of high intelligence is the ability to colate seemingly unrelated information and draw connections between them. Cawl having such a mastery of numerous fields exemplifies this, as his knowledge of engineering and technology directly effected his improvements of the primarus marines, from the steel cables reinforcing tendons to the cybernetic enhancements to their hearts allowing for a huge surge of strength when at deaths door. Bile, in his 100% focus on genetic engineering lacks the knowledge in other fields to compete with Cawl in that regard.
I think its interesting that both Cal and Bile where taught skills by Dark Eldar and Necros. Like they where doing just good enough for the old races to teach someone who is just starting to grasp the basics of what their tech and skill would be. Not saying either of them are dumb in anyway but just that they are starting to become an interest for the people who have gone through what they have.
Everyone knows how bile cloned fulgrim, but almost no one mentions in the first of his trilogy books, he successfully implants a geneseed into a woman and it is one of his most favorite creations who even other chaos marines fear. I really don't know anything about cawl but bile has done things only the emperor should know how to do and done things that don't even make sense. Bile did something the marketing team couldn't even do, those female marines.
One of the best 40K videos if seen in a long time! These characters are fascinating and important, they have more impact in the 40K universe than most others!
Spoilers for Genefather: Honestly, one of my biggest take aways from this book is that the chaosandroid, aka the original model that would become the necrons, has officially been reinstated as canon. It is a hell of a meme, and I am all here for it.
Great stuff! So Is Fabius cloning all the Primarchs and finding their flaws unavoidable strike anyone else as the flaws might also be intentional? Like, their flaws would lead to conflict which leads to struggle which fueled the Emperor somehow? I feel like that might have been what Hours was mad about if he somehow found something like that to be the case, haven't read the books. Second though, I feel Belisarius wins this one for two reasons: first, his cleverness in working in such a rigid structure as the Imperium. He has tons of resources yes, but he must do league more mental work to justify his actions and do things in a proper way where as Fabius kinda doesn't have an of these mental obstacles just physical ones. Secondly though and connected, their goals are an indicator of their intelligence to me. There is a more irrational essence to Fabius Biles goal, it feels like he took the "battle not with monsters" quote and twisted it to "just become the monster lol" which is cute but not nearly as clever as Belisarius explanation of innovation and how he logically justified it.
@@nemdenemam9753 While the Primaris is a noticeable upgrade, they hardly come near perfected. Something both Bile and Cawl agreed upon. Bile has upgraded marines combat abilities since before Cawl was a student of Biology, but his work often comes with severe drawbacks, mutations or addictions. The real feat Cawl archived was the scale of Primaris production and the comprehensive upgrade/redesign of their gear and armoury. Again, Bile and Cawl agreed on this as well.
The worst part about this discussion is that people are acting as if what Belisarius Cawl has done is unprecedented in actual, real life human history. Belisarius Cawl, for me, is an interesting expy of Leonardo da Vinci (or the more generic Renessaince Man archetype) set in the 41st Millenium, with the time and resources to actualize his concepts . Dwelt in anatomical studies? Check Designed flying and war machines? Check Actually built a mechanically powered suit of armour? Check! Hell he even dwelt in Geo morphology when he designed the diversion of the Arno river (which Machiavelli worked on) Nothing that Cawl has is out of the ordinary for what "baseline" humans can achieve and since I have yet to see him paint as a minimum: The Last Triumph Aeldari Lady with Gyrinx Le Guilliman his capabilities are actually less of what "baseline" humans at their best can achieve. Accomplishments aren't what define a mary sue. A mary sue is defined by a lack of effort, a mary sue accomplishes what no one else can with minimal or no effort rendering other "cast members" irrelevant. Rey for example (the most egregious example of this) is a mary sue not because of what she does but because of how she got there. She beats everyone around her is better at everything than everyone else with zero training or experience. That's a mary sue. Cawl creates better space marines, better armor, and better weapons, all of this without any prior experience working on or with the space marine project. He even arguably did a better job than the Emperor who may as well be an actual god. On top of all this he is also skilled in engineering and biology, not only re-engineering the space marines but also their equipment. Single handedly reinvinting anti grav tech with zero outside help. Something that the mechanicus has been working on for millenia. Its not what he accomplishes but how he got there and the inplications of what that means. Cawl single handedly outdid every tech priest who ever lived and the Emperor himself with almost zero outside help. He rendered the mechanicus obsolete in much the same way Rey renders her cohorts obsolete. There is nothing they can do that she can't do better, there is nothing the mechanicus can do that Cawl can't do better. He is absolutely a mary sue but unfortunately a necessary one. GW set 40k up in such a way that the Imperium could only be saved by a mary sue. There was no way out of the literary corner they trapped themselves in except for this. So while ordinarily I hate mary sue plot devices this one I'm ok with, and at least he has a modicum of personality unlike most other mary sue characters (eg: Rey)
@@bobdrooples I agree that Cawl is more intelligent, but I think saying “I have no clue how people can think Bile can even try to compare to Cawl” sort of places you in a situation where you’re making it seem like you have the “correct opinion” and anybody who disagrees is playing devils advocate essentially. That’s how I take it at least.
I believe I know one instance where time slows down in the warp. Also spoilers for "The First Heretic". I'm listening to "The First Heretic" right now and there was a point in the book where Lorgar sends one of his ships with Argel Tal into the Eye of Terror. Lorgar watches them go in, and 60 seconds later they come out. Argel Tal and a handful of space marines were the only survivors. Argel Tal said he was drifting in the warp for around 7 MONTHS! Space Marines had to eat the dead humans and then each other to survive while being possesed. 😢 Time is weird in the warp.
Bile is effectively the Davros of 40K and Cawl is the Doctor. also i don't know why so many people have a problem of Cawl being able to improve upon the Emperor's work when we all know that the Emperor himself could have EASILY made the Primaris marines the entire point of why the Thunder warriors and the baseline "firstborn" weren't Custodes level OP was simply due to time factors, hell i bet if big E properly sat down in his lab for about 500 years or so he could have built an entire planet's worth of Custodes. i highly doubt Cawl would be capable of doing Custodes level work.
As this series continues I want them to add more mad scientist characters. Like now that Cawl i going into the Pariah Nexus I want him to meet Illuminor Szeras and while him, Fabius and Szeras are fighting, Mad Dok Grotsnik comes in with the steel chair.
Personally, I think Cawl is smarter. He’s a generalist, like you said, but he’s also a specialist in his own respective fields (those being engineering and programming). So while Bile possesses extensive knowledge on everything biological, Cawl is a mechanical genius and more.
Honestly, I love Bile as a character and his making of a superior human that can naturally replace itself and interbreed with baseline humans with no loss of abilities and a high resistance to chaos, he is probably the closest to achieving (or at least advancing) the goal of the emperor to elevate humanity. When it comes to intelligence... I also feel that has to go to Bile. As you said in the video, Cawl has massive amounts of knowledge but he also has huge amounts of resources and much of his knowledge and work comes from others or iterative processes, whereas Bile has basically nothing in comparison resource wise and the majority of his great works are the result of his own personal work and research. Though yes, the whole specialist vs generalist issue does also apply.
Bile is better with genetics. Cawl did nothing with the Primaris that Bile cannot do and creating multiple clones of Primarchs is something that Cawl never did. Cawl is better overall but fors have more resources to work with.
I would say Bile, Cawl is far more knowledgeable, but in Genefather, Bile won. He had Cawl on the back foot the whole way. When Cawl had the final confrontation with Bile, he had no plan B, no threat or bluff to buy time. He could not come up with a lie or a counter offer to attempt to gain control of the situation. Cawl is lucky it didn't turn out worse.
Honestly, while I am a major fan of the ruinous powers, I would have to give the title to Cawl. Simply because he has a vaster knowledge bank. A generalist is more useful in war than a specialist in my opinion
Have you considered the topic of who is smarter from the perspective of whether they have ever been outsmarted by someone? What are the major L-s on part of each of those?
They always say that Cawl wants the position of Fabricator General in Mars but everyone, including Guilliman, are hesitant to give that much power to Cawl for fear he will betray them. Who is the FG right now though? I have yet to hear any mention of who actually holds the position and what kind of relationship he has with Cawl.
I too want a better answer than what I have: Oud Oudia Raskian, they say he has so much cybernetic augmentation he is more a building than a man. Cawl has stated "he did not have the means to replace Raskian (as fabricator general), even if he truly wanted to." I'm afraid that's all I know.
Great video Wes as always, I wanted to ask you for a video about the people that are naturally attracted to the Warp, I only know Typhus and Erebus but would like to hear about this from your POV
I think Cawl is the overall more intelligent but I think he's also a bit more arrogant and less focused. I think Bile while also arrogant is able to be a bit more objective and crafty. I look at them kinda like Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty
I would argue that Call holds the overall advantage. Because Bile can't stick to a single project. Bile will build a new race, than promptly decide that the race was flawed. At which point he will abandon that race for a new one.
I was under the idea that time was sort of non-linear in the warp; time could pass faster OR slower but it doesn't really matter. Unless I'm wrong and it's explicitly said that time goes faster.
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I wonder if cawl has ever been voted for to become domnice of the machnicas
in another words i despize him and primaris
i don't accept them as cannon but what i can do about it
fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one
second of we don't talk about cawl here
Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions.
We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous.
They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person.
Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert.
Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint.
If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.
I love Bile’s male pattern baldness….
Looks like an old gym teacher from the 90’s..
@@houseadams4841 the ultimate skullet
It’s interesting that Cawl was taught by Necrons and Bile by Dark Eldar. Like a warped mirror of the war in heaven.
Warhammer 40K metaphysics are simply originated from the dualism between Materium & Immaterium, Emperor tried to balance the psychic and physical qualities of humanity but as Live! From Black library channel guy said: His works are so rushed and unnecessarily secretive even among the Imperium humanity allies that causes Emperor's projects in shambles
The hubris of Emperor's pasts during Unification Wars, Great Crusade and Horus Heresy are ironically absolved by his successors regardless of the Imperial Cult or Chaos-oriented ones, they will be instrumental in repelling Tyrannids, mending the Dark Eldar to be less sadistic with new beacons, giving Necrons more 'humane' purposes to unified themselves, all while threatening Imperial Cult's status quo to enact The End Times, The King in Yellow also are opposed by those in Imperial Cult's bureaucracy and administrations which already rotting for 10.000 years and further after Age of Apostasy, Months of Shame, etc
The End Times in Warhammer 40K will end with both bang and whimper, or at least as series of Implosions from the legacies of War in Heaven and Dark Age of Technological marvels, meanwhile Trazyn, Vulkan, Farsight and Cegorach are breakdancing and dabbing surrounding his magnificent historical collections to the dismay of soyfaced clone Fulgrim (with real lesser warp god soul of his own) are seething in confusion and laughter as all of them seeing all of Undivided Chaos, 99.99% of Imperium's worlds, all of Xenos factions and Tyrannids' Hivemind destroying each other in The End Times of Warhammer 40K
@@ohamatchhams New beacons? Explain. I wish to hear about this.
@@ohamatchhams There wont be an end times in 40k. Business needs to business.
yeah Cawl and Bile are like Human mirrors of the Necrons and Dark Eldar. when I saw some of Bile's creations, I immediately thought of the works of the Drukhari Homunculi and their fleshcraft abominations. and many Skiitari are almost as mindless as Necron Soldiers, and Cawl himself is almost entirely mechanical at this point, he even has a body plan shared with some Cryptek Lords.
@@nicholai7300let's hope not. Although I don't mind another grand war that leads the Traitors to Terra again. They need to finish HH, The Scowering, and do some novels of The Dark Age of Tech.
Fabius Bile is the best, glad they had a great match off, and really shows the great dichotomy between the two.
my first exposure to Fabius Bile was in that Warhammer Inquisitor game (i personally recommend it) and thought he was ok as an antagonist. After reading the Fabius Bile omnibus, I realized just how dirty they did him in the game. Dude in the books did not give a single fuck about anyone or anything but his children or "new men" which was weirdly nice to read.
I'm here to watch Wes bounce around excitedly. And also the stories.
Ahhh gotta love any mention of fabulous bill and chadisarius cawl
I wasn’t a fan of how Cawl beat the Cryptek with the power of friendship. Kind of had me like ‘huh’ when reading that part
That really wasn't what happened. He manipulated a metal skeleton..
How was it power of friendship? He just used a discarded android as a distraction before shooting the cryptek. The android just happened to be part of an old experiment to recreate his old friend.
@@MrPublikus from the mouth of Cawl himself ‘my dear alien monster… you underestimate the utility of friendship, Friedish will do anything for me, even when he’s dead’ I mean yes it was a robot, but it sure felt like the power of friendship lol
@@MrPublikus this was my first time reading anything with Cawl in it. Aside from the Dark Imperium trilogy and he just didn’t impress me very much. I found him to be kind of annoying. But that’s just my bias! I’m sure lots of people felt otherwise
@@TheBasedCoat yes he said that... but it was grandstanding and bullshit.
He did what he had decried her for and monologued when he should have fired... it nearly killed him!
Into the am. Maker of those legendary shmedium shirts.
Well after i finish the farsight audiobooks guess I got to listen to belisarius cawl book now
I believe Bile is only comparable now, as he doesn't restrict his studies to what is deemed acceptable, if Cawl were to do the same and fully embrace the study of xenos tech and become a true heretic then Cawl would absolutely become smarter and gain more knowledge.
I'd also give a comparison similar to Lex Luthor and Tony Stark. One is much more intellectual and enabled in what they do while the other, Fabius, is all about fighting for those resources/ingredients and making something out of them like a box of scraps.
waiting for Cawl to bring the Iron hands into the main stream....Necrodermis onto their skin or arms.
I like Cawl a bit more than Bile because he seems to be one of the more sane people in power in the galaxy. Don't get me wrong, Cawl has done evil things, he's weird and very egotistical, but he seems to be pushing the Imperium forward towards technological progress and overall improvement, whether the Imperium wants it or not. Cawl seems to be doing some actual good for the Imperium and I find that far more intriguing than Bile just being another sadistic, twisted mad scientist in the extreme.
Bile is uncaring not sadistic. He generally does not care enough to torture just for the sake of torture.
Cawl had a much larger impact on the current setting. Helping resurrect Gilliman, creating the new primarius, inventing new weapons for war. Even more so, he is a pragmatist, where Bial is a perfectionist. His inventions has saved countless lives and more than just imperial citizens. Ragnar blackmane lives because he crossed the Rubicon, the only space marine, no, the only thing to ever 1 v 1 Ghazgul Thraka and win. This is only a single example, the value of his existence in the current setting is of far more importance than Bial, who has pretty much been off doing fuck all.
I'm probably the 50th person to say this, but Cawl is in more than one book. Another is the one where he sets a c'tan shard free for example...
Fabius Bile to me reads like a Tsimisce from VTM
I'd say Fabious is more creative, but more pridefull, very simplified using his thesis to prove- or disprove an athithesis. Cawl is a bit more stuck on roads already travelled (even though most of those roads are unknown). However also does more Synthesising; Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis- or a new Thesis. Kinda like early Budism or the Hegelian Dialectic. So I'd say Cawl is smarter now, but Fabious has more potential?
Armchair philosophy here, but that's what we do here.
I like the comparison between these two! Especially since they are characters I'm not deeply versed with. However. I could've done without the "Who is tha bestest" framing of it. It just furthers amplifies the already rampant polarization and comparative perspectives in society. Online as offline. Though that's just me. Still. Great video. But could've done without the framing.
PS! 12:34 How do you know the technology behind the Pharos device is what was used by Necrons in the war in heaven?! This is something I've never even heard referenced!
PPS! You haven't heard that time, and space for that matter, moves differently in the warp? There's several examples of that. At least in Horus Heresy. Horus when he gets his chaos powers. Starships when they enter the warp and spends longer or shorter time there than transpires in real space. 10k years is long. But it' still well established that time in the warp is practically irrelevant as a concept.
Its from cawl's book the great work which plays into genefathers plot.
And the warp traditionaly speeds up time, I've never read an example of it slowing it down unless you count the very rare example of going backwards in time which I believe has happened twice, maybe three times in canon.
@@weshammer Ah, that's right! Got sped up and slowed down reversed in my head. Also forgot for a moment that the books you were talking about were set in the 40k Which makes what you're saying make sense! 😅 Though I would say time being relative in the warp is plausible with the perpetuals, scattering of the primarchs and "river of time" mentioned in the Crimson King. But I think you're right that the author just made a mistake considering how brief the mention was! Man. You have an annoyingly good eye for detail!
I would say Cawl, being an expert in every field of science I stead of just genetics. Saying that he also is more like a self contained research team since he regularly splits off subconscious to work on problems he doesn’t want to fully thing about
Cawl became one of my favorite characters. Hes just so delightfully arrogant yet can somehow back it up. Its great! Also that he intentionally retains his humanity is a great twist to the usual Mechanicum philosophies.
It's only arrogance if you can't back it up. If you can it's pride.
This. I love that cawl doesn’t praise the mechanicus to the point where he thinks new technology is heresy and believes most of the mechanicus are morons. The only thing I really dislike about the character, is his looks. I think he’s just one of the ugliest, stupid, looking character in all of 40k. Nothing about him looks cool at all.
@@Reformed322 only cool thing about his looks is the 5 extra arms holding the giant chain axe. I mean, go to 7:54 and tell me thats not badass
Well "retaining his humanity" is rather debatable.
Yes I think for Cawl always appreciated the human desire to achieve and he didn’t want to lose that piece… really just his internal drive to continue to be great. He wants to shape the future by creating. Rediscovering will not make him happy
I wanna see a science fair between Illuminor Szeras, Belisarius Cawl, Fabius Bile, Urien Rakarth, and Mad Dok Grotsnik.
I'm sure it would be called Something something "horrors beyond comprehension" 😂
Most beings would go mad in the foyer if not just by seing a poster for such an event.
And Arkhan Land in the corner
Knowing orks he would accidentally win first prize for making something work that shouldnt.
@@weshammer from the timeline where the horus heresy never happened
I think there is one feat that is forgotten about Bile. In the book, "Black Tide" bile hides his facility on a tyranid world using a zoanthrope's pheromones to confuse where he was located.
Bile is resourceful and that's what I love about him.
Tyranid world?
@@qwaeszrdxtfcgvbqwaeszrdxtf5733 I think he means a world being 'occupied' by Tyranids (like how a soldier would 'occupy' an enemy outpost on their way through hostile territory.)
Report the account above me. It's scam.
@@woohoogdo The question isn't 'could' he, the question is *WOULD* he? Even for Cawl that sounds a bit Much to ask. Wouldn't he had rather glassed the planet, then dug a hole in the remaining rock?
I gave the edge to Cawl just bc he has to work with a guillotine over his head. He's always either hiding or dumbing down his work for fear of being labeled a heretic by Gman or the mechanicus. We see Bile's unrestricted peak. We dont know what Cawl's is.
Agreed, and that's a good way to put it. Cawl is a one man cabal with the amount secrets he keeps from his peers, his general long-term goal causes him to innovate and create and it seems generally like a good thing; Bile's long term goal has him travelling world to world flaying and torturing whatever life he can find... Even if his goal of creating a race to supercede humanity is ultimately meant to be for the greater good, all he has done so far is make perfect fuel for the chaos gods to feed on.
I thought guiliman gave him permission to do what he needs to
This is the main point for me as well. There is no telling the tech miracles cawl could perform were he not held back.
@@TitaniumAlloyz
To quote the man: _"I am Belisarius Cawl. There is no thing that I cannot do."_
He even has an extra mechadendrite just for jangling the keys. Truly he is the Warp-Squirrel.
I want to see one of Belisarius' enemies introduce him to Factorio as a plan to cripple his progress.
The factory must grow...
And after a hour later Bellsarius comes back and says, "Your Machine had proven incable of handling my designs."
Translation: it took me an hours to crash the game. it would of been shorter but I have better things to do.
Cawl would absolutely make the most insanely efficient, self-reliant factory imaginable in like a hour, maybe two if he is doing something else at the same time.
Cawl would solve Factorio in seconds as if it was one of those shitty fake banner ad games, then he'd release it as an STC that he "found"
in short, bile is a biology specialist while Cawl is a engineering specialist.
Although, the Primaris are pretty impressive biological... things.
@@Overanalyse_ThisWell, there is some Mechanicus influence on the Primaris. Each tendon of a Primaris Marine is encased in a steel coil.
Half of Modern medicine is feat of engineering tbh.
There is the biology factor in it, but to maintain sterile systems and biomonitoring systems of today, we need extensive engineering.
There's even a bachelor's degree thats associated with it. It's called biomedical engineering.
On the flip side, we have biology entering engineering today, with biomimetic design taking the forefront to modifying and developing our current engineering systems. From compliant mechanisms in biomechanics to studying communication between ants in a colony to model swarm behavior for drones and studying deep sea bioluminescent creatures to further develop optical fibre tech, biology and engineering are getting together more than ever.
Dude made Alpha Primus, even Bile was impressed to the point where he recognized it as better than anything he has made.
I agree on this not because of what he said but because it's the GOAT himself..... "Mike Tyson Baby!"😝🤣
Its interesting how Cawl, the man sworn into a faith where a core tenant is to not innovate, is himself one of the most innovative people in the galaxy. And then Bile, powered by chaos and change, struggles to make more than copies of imperfection.
He was from the time Innovation was still in gray area.
Not to say mechanicus fully outlaw innovation, if one could point to something proven and prove the advancement came from that then it is okay😅
Also, undercover researches never stopped. Really high ranking magus wouldn't care about the rules all that much
My brother in christ, please go actually read the books for yourself before spouting nonsense. Fabius Bile is an atheist and probably the only marine left in existence that actually adheres to the imperial truth. He is certianly not "powered by chaos", and he doesn't struggle to make copies of imperfection, he can literally produce perfect clones of every Primarch. He just doesn't do it because he did it for Fulgrim and then changed his mind saying "the age of gods and monsters is over" before trading Fulgrim away to Trazyns collection.
On the topic of innovation, Cawl is so far ahead of the rest of his "peers" that it wouldn't be hard for him to reverse engineer xenos tech and build it so it looks nice and _Standard_ , then say it's an STC that he found in some far off cave on a dead planet. I think Cawl would argue that innovation is neccessary, not only for humanity but to keep himself occupied, of course humanity has completely twisted the original creed of the imperium, worshipping big E as a god when it's the opposite of what he wants, so in that regard Cawl would see innovation as an integral part to worshipping the Omnissiah even if the greater imperium sees it as heresy- because they're idiots, and I (Cawl) am a gigagenius chad scholar.
Bile's goal is interesting and I admire that he rejects the ruinous powers completely, but he is an extremely twizted fella even without boons from the chaos gods. I think Cawl would beat him if they had to square up, they're both geniuses and physically nothing to scoff at, but neither are primarchs and Cawl is utterly chromed out with all his augments and dendrites. Like a comment from @Paradise2003 below this chain said "We see Bile's unrestricted peak. We dont know what Cawl's is."
@@SmokerX91 Lets not cap perfrect Fulgrim is not someting Bile can just repeat
Fair, maybe he can't repeat endless perfect Primarch clones, but seeing as he did an imperfect cloning of Horus followed by a perfect cloning of Fulgrim, it's fair to say he can reliably recreate Primarchs, even if they wouldn't go on a whole redemption arc like Fulgrim did. It does however piss me off that most lore youtuber just say whatever and the people in the comments talk even more nonsense without actually having any knowledge about the lore. Saying Fabius Bile is "powered by chaos" is ludicrous and saying that he's struggling to copy others is BS as well, as he managed to create a new lifeform out of Astartes geneseed, Eldar DNA and Human DNA that can naturally reproduce and kill a space marine 1v1 while the space marine is armed and they are naked.@@eliasmagus5086
(Spoilers) Man the book was really good. I was scared for what the ending could be as I went through it. Bile might be smarter but Cawl knows what he is fighting for. He is fighting for humanity, his friends, his family. With the Great Work it gave me the vibe that Cawl saw all of the primas marines as his sons but Alpha Primas is his first born and actually is his son. It’s interesting to see Cawl be ever so lonely and has remade his best friend and has a made a son and both are fed up with his shit.
If you're giving an edge for clarity of vision, they're also tied there. Cawl gets the monologue at the end, but it echoes what Bile had already been saying throughout the book.
Which book has fabius going to cammoragh?
@@Bobbb-f3i read his trilogy
@@Mondy667 I've got the ebook of the trilogy saved but am reading Felix and gortek at moment. I hoped it was the trilogy so thanks
@@Mondy667I’m on the 3rd book now myself, but it’s odd that Bile’s visit there is all in the past. Almost like there’s a side quest/book in between. It’s explained well enough, but it feels like there should be a novel there..
Cawl found a way to use thousand son geneseed which was found in Primus. This is big news, But what do you guys think?
its kinda hinted that alpha Primus is a mix of a handful of traitor primarchs, bile claims he “senses the presence of the Cyclops” after Primus almost kills him with his psychic powers while personality wise he acts quite a lot like a form a Perty
@@whiteeye9584😂write a book or something
fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one
second of we don't talk about cawl here
Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions.
We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous.
They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person.
Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert.
Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint.
If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.
I love their interactions in Genefather. And it basically boils down to Bile saying, 'oh when you tinker with the emperor's work in a lab paid for by the imperium you're a hero, but I have to play chop shop Bob out here and do better work, I'm a monster'
lol though he hates it when Lucious calls him bob especially over vox (lol tts)
- "Yes, but at least I do not wear a coat made of flesh." 😏
@@Archon3960 but at least Fabius looks 'somewhat' human XD
@@Narakuda
Look, the Mechanicus doesn't exactly has much fashion sense. XD
@@Archon3960 I mean, fair. At least Bile's fashion is a statement! XD
Cawl has more resources, but he's stuck trying to keep the rotting and doomed superstructure of the Imperium going. Bile's plan with the New Men has none of those resources, but it appears to be working completely independently of his influence and limited resources. I give it to Fabulous Bill, not for the skill or capacity of either character, but for the simple fact that Cawl is on a sinking ship and Bile is not.
Biles future would be a sinking ship for the current humanity though also. Considering he would wipe every last one of them out
Bile himself believe that he has no place in the future with the new men.
The way Porter moves and fights is so sick. She must have the calorie intake of a small farm. But the way she's built makes it read like she's one of the fastest individuals in the setting.
Practically overheating by the end of that fight.
As Wes said, if the newest New Men are like her... Damm old humanity is I trouble!
IIRC all iterations of the new men were designed to be 100% capable of breeding with all forms of baseline humanity (not sure if abhumans as well) with all the children being born as new men. This is why there has been issues of entire populations of new men springing up on planets. So not really an issue of extermination so much as (sorta) forced and rapid evolution.
Well if we consider that The Emperor had a whole team and unlimited ressources when creating the Primarchs Biles's work on cloning them is unparalleled but his stubbornness in not including warp base tech in his bio-engineering in a setting where the soul has so much impact must be in someway hurting his progress.
Did he have a whole team for the Primarchs? He had one for the spare marines which struck me as odd considering he created the Custodes first (before the Thunder Warriors) and they are superior to the space marines. But I always thought the Primarchs were the product of very few, with a great deal of personal input by the Emperor himself.
@@RichardStrong86 well actually in First Heretic Argel Thal is sent back in the past by the Chaos Gods to visit the laboratory of the Primarch project and he describes whole teams of scientist working on it and in Saturnine we learn that part of the Primarch DNA comes from a perpetual named Erda so he was not alone on those works
I'd have to say Cawl, hands down is smarter. While Fabius is getting knowledge from different clones of himself, the knowledge he gains would be biased in Fabius's favor. I.E. seeing things from the same angle. Meanwhile Cawl's soul transference is him getting knowledge from different perspectives and angles. There is bias, but different kinds of bias from different sources, counteracting each other.
I'd also like to point out Cawl is basically processing multiple selves at the same time, like actively working on multiple projects at the same time with the same mind, meanwhile Fabius has split minds that might be linked by wraithbone, but at the end of the day...
Fabius is like a colony of ants and his original form is the queen so to speak that directs the hive. Cawl is more like.. well... a computer with many different processes running on it.
A colony of ants, intelligence level wise, for how small they are, is insane. A colony of 10k year old super scientists would be fuckin nuts
@@fmlAllthetime The point I was trying to make was the intelligence of Fabius is spread out across multiple versions of himself, separate instances so to speak.
With Cawl its basically all in one to the point where he has to occasionally delete parts of his memory to make room for new memories.
I'd say memory does play a part in intelligence in this manner I think Cawl definitely has Fabius beat. I don't think Fabius has had to delete his own memory just to make room for more lol.
Wouldn't that mean Cawls retention is worse by definition? @@winterwolf1250
Idk how Fabius wouldn't have to do the same shit considering how old he is, but ain't no one ever accused 40 k of making actual sense.
I adore the end of Genefather as it focuses on the values of love and respect, which was a very pleasant surprise. Especially Bile, a being so evil and monstrous, is still allowed to have positive traits and moments where you see a kinder side of him. And Cawl is ironically one of the most human characters in all of 40k. Especially his relationship with his friend/boyfriend Friedisch is just heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time.
why would you call him cawl's boyfriend...
This seems as good a place as any to mention my pet tinfoil hat theory which is that what took Bile aback when he managed to examine Alpha Primus' genes wasn't that Cawl tried to make a homebrew Primarch as many speculate but rather it is that Cawl bootlegged the Grey Knight's method of artificially making a Blank to make the first viable Blank/Psyker Hybrid (as all Primarchs are implied to be inherently tied to the Warp), albeit one only barely held together by a dash of Vulkan's Perpetual Genes.
Something that can wield the warp but is simultaneously immune to Chaos' influence? That is something that would get Bile's attention I think. It would also explain the reason Primus is constantly in pain (his Blank side is constantly annihilating the Psyker part of his soul, the damage being healed at a similar rate by his Vulkan-sourced Perpetual Genes). This constant annihilation and regeneration of the soul is also why it is "loose" in Primus' body.
I know as a theory it has its flaws but it does seem pretty cool in concept to me at least!
Oh shit, that *is* a good theory
Bile is a perfect example of "Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough". There is something else to be considered other than pure intelligence and that is wisdom. And I think Cawl has that many times over Bile. sm
Yeah, that is a good way to put it.
both Fabius Bile & Belisarius Cawl re very smart in there own craft, and one of them has something more the other does not .
Belisarius Cawl is more focused in Gene manipulation and necron tech . Fabius Bile is on Gene manipulation and Eldar tech .
tho Belisarius Cawl does that thing where he expand his knowledge by merging diff minds from other scientists a very risky procedure bc you dont know what mind will take over , so far B Cawl has won these battles having the strongest personality , so in my mind there is no question here Belisarius Cawl is the smarter one (sry about my English not my first or second language)
💯 B Cawl is the smartest one. Not to take away anything from Bile but Cawl is the superior scientist with knowledge and memories from multiple other very smart ppl
I have read books about bile and Cawl . They re different they do focus in 2 different xeno techs and do have a lot of similarities but Cawl has multiple minds of few of the smartest ppl of the Imperium
@@whiteeye9584 this took some time to read
fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one
second of we don't talk about cawl here
Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions.
We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous.
They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person.
Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert.
Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint.
If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.
@@whiteeye9584 not everyone is going to like him. 2 Ain't reading all that 3 there is a simple solution if you don't like something in the 40k books just don't read it. Read what you enjoy the most
Fabius Bile is one of my favorite 40K characters. He embodies the mad scientist trope really well (not to mention the fact that his TTS counterpart is just f*cking awesome! xD)
Cawl is like a huge swiss army knife / a giant toolbox on space steroids. Whereas, Bile is more like a surgical tool set, also on space steroids. The former is super useful in a truly vast range of applications but if you need to deal with flesh and blood, then you are better off getting the latter
For me Cawl is the clear winner. Not due to his intellect but through his humor. After listening to both the Great Work and Genefather, the guy is absolutely hilarious and i love him.
Bile has a chip on his shoulder, Cawl is in it for the love of the game
when did fabius come to the mindset that the new fulgrim would do the same as the original? from what i read. the emperors children were straight up ready to redeem themselves because he was perfect. he was their primarch without taint. an bile got rid of him for that very reason.
It’s left up to interpretation why he did it. Reading the book I came to the conclusion that he was genuinely scared of what a united emperor’s children could become, worried that the new Fulgrim would be manipulated, and overall entrenched in his philosophy that it is better to create than fix what is broken
@@anexistanthuman2435 what could a united emperors children become.... PERFECT.
@@texasallstar6969 Not Perfect, nothing is ever good enough to be perfect. The emperor’s children weren’t perfect even at the height of the great crusade. Another theory I have is that the real Fulgrim would attempt to kill the fake Fulgrim, drawing too much attention to bile and overall just being a bad incident for everyone involved
@@anexistanthuman2435 lol the pre heresy emperors children were about as perfect a space marine legion as you could get xD
@@texasallstar6969 And then boom, gene seed blight. Internal complications. Characters like Eidolon and Lucius.
If you haven't read it, Wolfsbane is primarily a space wolf and Leman Russ Horus Heresy novel, but Cawl features heavily in it, and its actually the events in Wolfsbane that lead to his backstory in The Great Work.
All I am saying is that if these two are the greatest minds in the galaxy then it is no wonder galaxy is the shit show it is. One treats personalities like they are pokemon and the other could not contain his own ego in one body. Really each of them is just a half of Trazyn.
Hold on a damn minute
Trazyn is best!
The First Heretic: Argel Tal and the other Word Bearers spent 7 months in the warp while from Lorgar and the others waiting for them outside the warp, it was 60 seconds…. It’s not uncommon or odd in any way at all! Loved this one though, keep it up brother!
One thing I like about Cawl and was a little surprised about was that he's a genuine believer when it comes to his faith in the Omnissiah.
I really wanted Trazyn to make an actual appearance (besides just a mention) in the novel. He has interacted with and assisted/stood against both Bile and Cawl at various points in their history; another link and similarity between these rivals.
I recently finished reading the Fabius Bile omnibus, and it made me a huge fan of Bile, and I recommend everyone here check out those books. A little bit of everything in them.
I think saying "Who's smarter, Cawl or Bile" is like asking "Which is tastier, pizza or strawberries" because the answer is going to be "yes." They've got very different specialties and they're impressively skilled at those specialties. Not that either one would admit it.
When Cawl gets more books I’m sure we’re going to see how ridiculous his intelligence is.
Im a Cawl guy.
It’d be interesting if Cawl ends up working alongside Tau at some point, making use of their AI knowledge to further his own implementation of it, and in turn some of them actively become his disciples. Regardless of what you think about the Tau, their growth is absolutely insane, and just think about what they could be capable of with even a fraction of the knowledge Cawl could teach them
One of the key indicators of high intelligence is the ability to colate seemingly unrelated information and draw connections between them. Cawl having such a mastery of numerous fields exemplifies this, as his knowledge of engineering and technology directly effected his improvements of the primarus marines, from the steel cables reinforcing tendons to the cybernetic enhancements to their hearts allowing for a huge surge of strength when at deaths door. Bile, in his 100% focus on genetic engineering lacks the knowledge in other fields to compete with Cawl in that regard.
I think its interesting that both Cal and Bile where taught skills by Dark Eldar and Necros. Like they where doing just good enough for the old races to teach someone who is just starting to grasp the basics of what their tech and skill would be. Not saying either of them are dumb in anyway but just that they are starting to become an interest for the people who have gone through what they have.
Loved the clear adhd traits Cawl is displaying in Genefather, wondered if the author did that on purpose or not?
Everyone knows how bile cloned fulgrim, but almost no one mentions in the first of his trilogy books, he successfully implants a geneseed into a woman and it is one of his most favorite creations who even other chaos marines fear. I really don't know anything about cawl but bile has done things only the emperor should know how to do and done things that don't even make sense. Bile did something the marketing team couldn't even do, those female marines.
Cawl and Bile are not on the same level, Cawl has forgotten more about science than Bile will likely ever know.
One of the best 40K videos if seen in a long time! These characters are fascinating and important, they have more impact in the 40K universe than most others!
Spoilers for Genefather:
Honestly, one of my biggest take aways from this book is that the chaosandroid, aka the original model that would become the necrons, has officially been reinstated as canon. It is a hell of a meme, and I am all here for it.
Great stuff! So Is Fabius cloning all the Primarchs and finding their flaws unavoidable strike anyone else as the flaws might also be intentional? Like, their flaws would lead to conflict which leads to struggle which fueled the Emperor somehow? I feel like that might have been what Hours was mad about if he somehow found something like that to be the case, haven't read the books.
Second though, I feel Belisarius wins this one for two reasons: first, his cleverness in working in such a rigid structure as the Imperium. He has tons of resources yes, but he must do league more mental work to justify his actions and do things in a proper way where as Fabius kinda doesn't have an of these mental obstacles just physical ones. Secondly though and connected, their goals are an indicator of their intelligence to me. There is a more irrational essence to Fabius Biles goal, it feels like he took the "battle not with monsters" quote and twisted it to "just become the monster lol" which is cute but not nearly as clever as Belisarius explanation of innovation and how he logically justified it.
An excellent, fair and well researched analysis.
I would give Bile the edge in genetics and warfare...
Cawl in the rest of science.
Didnt cawl perfect the space marine genes to create even better soldiers? I thought chaos guys tried but couldnt do it
Bile probably also understands warpcraft to a far greater extent too.
@@nemdenemam9753 While the Primaris is a noticeable upgrade, they hardly come near perfected. Something both Bile and Cawl agreed upon.
Bile has upgraded marines combat abilities since before Cawl was a student of Biology, but his work often comes with severe drawbacks, mutations or addictions.
The real feat Cawl archived was the scale of Primaris production and the comprehensive upgrade/redesign of their gear and armoury. Again, Bile and Cawl agreed on this as well.
@@PoolNoodleGundam Fair
The worst part about this discussion is that people are acting as if what Belisarius Cawl has done is unprecedented in actual, real life human history.
Belisarius Cawl, for me, is an interesting expy of Leonardo da Vinci (or the more generic Renessaince Man archetype) set in the 41st Millenium, with the time and resources to actualize his concepts .
Dwelt in anatomical studies? Check
Designed flying and war machines? Check
Actually built a mechanically powered suit of armour? Check!
Hell he even dwelt in Geo morphology when he designed the diversion of the Arno river (which Machiavelli worked on)
Nothing that Cawl has is out of the ordinary for what "baseline" humans can achieve and since I have yet to see him paint as a minimum:
The Last Triumph
Aeldari Lady with Gyrinx
Le Guilliman
his capabilities are actually less of what "baseline" humans at their best can achieve.
Accomplishments aren't what define a mary sue. A mary sue is defined by a lack of effort, a mary sue accomplishes what no one else can with minimal or no effort rendering other "cast members" irrelevant.
Rey for example (the most egregious example of this) is a mary sue not because of what she does but because of how she got there. She beats everyone around her is better at everything than everyone else with zero training or experience. That's a mary sue.
Cawl creates better space marines, better armor, and better weapons, all of this without any prior experience working on or with the space marine project. He even arguably did a better job than the Emperor who may as well be an actual god. On top of all this he is also skilled in engineering and biology, not only re-engineering the space marines but also their equipment. Single handedly reinvinting anti grav tech with zero outside help. Something that the mechanicus has been working on for millenia.
Its not what he accomplishes but how he got there and the inplications of what that means. Cawl single handedly outdid every tech priest who ever lived and the Emperor himself with almost zero outside help. He rendered the mechanicus obsolete in much the same way Rey renders her cohorts obsolete. There is nothing they can do that she can't do better, there is nothing the mechanicus can do that Cawl can't do better.
He is absolutely a mary sue but unfortunately a necessary one. GW set 40k up in such a way that the Imperium could only be saved by a mary sue. There was no way out of the literary corner they trapped themselves in except for this. So while ordinarily I hate mary sue plot devices this one I'm ok with, and at least he has a modicum of personality unlike most other mary sue characters (eg: Rey)
Holy fuck I love Cawl now???
Dude is so much cooler than most people portray him as.
Cawl. Cawl actually built things that lasted. Fabius is just another delusional chaos space marine.
"Gona do my best being unbiased"
but flesh is weak and machine is immortal
Probably give it to Cawl
Like the old saying goes "Jack of all trades master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one"
Cawl, hands down, no comparison even. I have no clue how people can think Bile can even try to compare to Cawl.
Cloned Primarch > Adeptus Restartes
Sedayne who Cawl took over, was Bile's Apothecary instructor.
Ah, a reductive take that shuts down all possibility for discussion
@@anexistanthuman2435 only if you take it that way.
Build off, don't take your ball and go home. Make your point
@@bobdrooples I agree that Cawl is more intelligent, but I think saying “I have no clue how people can think Bile can even try to compare to Cawl” sort of places you in a situation where you’re making it seem like you have the “correct opinion” and anybody who disagrees is playing devils advocate essentially. That’s how I take it at least.
They’re both so awesome 👏
They deserve to be there at pivotal points in to the story yet written. They’ve survived and thrived
he probably has atleast 20 perfect clones of the 2 missing primarchs
I believe I know one instance where time slows down in the warp. Also spoilers for "The First Heretic".
I'm listening to "The First Heretic" right now and there was a point in the book where Lorgar sends one of his ships with Argel Tal into the Eye of Terror. Lorgar watches them go in, and 60 seconds later they come out.
Argel Tal and a handful of space marines were the only survivors. Argel Tal said he was drifting in the warp for around 7 MONTHS! Space Marines had to eat the dead humans and then each other to survive while being possesed. 😢
Time is weird in the warp.
Bile is effectively the Davros of 40K and Cawl is the Doctor.
also i don't know why so many people have a problem of Cawl being able to improve upon the Emperor's work when we all know that the Emperor himself could have EASILY made the Primaris marines the entire point of why the Thunder warriors and the baseline "firstborn" weren't Custodes level OP was simply due to time factors, hell i bet if big E properly sat down in his lab for about 500 years or so he could have built an entire planet's worth of Custodes. i highly doubt Cawl would be capable of doing Custodes level work.
As this series continues I want them to add more mad scientist characters. Like now that Cawl i going into the Pariah Nexus I want him to meet Illuminor Szeras and while him, Fabius and Szeras are fighting, Mad Dok Grotsnik comes in with the steel chair.
Personally, I think Cawl is smarter. He’s a generalist, like you said, but he’s also a specialist in his own respective fields (those being engineering and programming). So while Bile possesses extensive knowledge on everything biological, Cawl is a mechanical genius and more.
Imma a definite Cawlite… however, I agree with your assessment… Fabulous Bill did get the drop on Cawl🤷🏾♂️
Great book… And I love Alpha Primus 💪🏾
Honestly, I love Bile as a character and his making of a superior human that can naturally replace itself and interbreed with baseline humans with no loss of abilities and a high resistance to chaos, he is probably the closest to achieving (or at least advancing) the goal of the emperor to elevate humanity.
When it comes to intelligence... I also feel that has to go to Bile. As you said in the video, Cawl has massive amounts of knowledge but he also has huge amounts of resources and much of his knowledge and work comes from others or iterative processes, whereas Bile has basically nothing in comparison resource wise and the majority of his great works are the result of his own personal work and research. Though yes, the whole specialist vs generalist issue does also apply.
Bile is better with genetics. Cawl did nothing with the Primaris that Bile cannot do and creating multiple clones of Primarchs is something that Cawl never did. Cawl is better overall but fors have more resources to work with.
I would say Bile, Cawl is far more knowledgeable, but in Genefather, Bile won. He had Cawl on the back foot the whole way. When Cawl had the final confrontation with Bile, he had no plan B, no threat or bluff to buy time. He could not come up with a lie or a counter offer to attempt to gain control of the situation. Cawl is lucky it didn't turn out worse.
Honestly, while I am a major fan of the ruinous powers, I would have to give the title to Cawl. Simply because he has a vaster knowledge bank. A generalist is more useful in war than a specialist in my opinion
“Fabius Bile made his supersoldiers in a CAVE! With a bunch of SCRAPS!”
I'm personally wondering what the 2 of them would be capable if they worked together. Master af flesh and a master of machines.
I'm grateful for anyone who makes 40k content on youtube. Thank you and thank you all. I love this shit.
Have you considered the topic of who is smarter from the perspective of whether they have ever been outsmarted by someone? What are the major L-s on part of each of those?
Bile wiped the floor with cawl and stole his “sons” progenied glands he was nice enough to keep him alive because cawl begged
They always say that Cawl wants the position of Fabricator General in Mars but everyone, including Guilliman, are hesitant to give that much power to Cawl for fear he will betray them. Who is the FG right now though? I have yet to hear any mention of who actually holds the position and what kind of relationship he has with Cawl.
I too want a better answer than what I have: Oud Oudia Raskian, they say he has so much cybernetic augmentation he is more a building than a man. Cawl has stated "he did not have the means to replace Raskian (as fabricator general), even if he truly wanted to." I'm afraid that's all I know.
I dont think one is smarter than the other between them its just they base on different fields of science
Cawl is smarter. B/c after ten millennia Bile hasn't cured baldness.
Great video Wes as always, I wanted to ask you for a video about the people that are naturally attracted to the Warp, I only know Typhus and Erebus but would like to hear about this from your POV
I am too biased to say something here.
More Cawl Books, yes.
I think Cawl is the overall more intelligent but I think he's also a bit more arrogant and less focused. I think Bile while also arrogant is able to be a bit more objective and crafty.
I look at them kinda like Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty
Thing is, Cawl ain't Sherlock. He's more like Dr. Frankenstein.
@@hieioni3354 Bile is from the town where Dr. Frankenstein is said to have gone to uni.
@@rankothefiremage Where is that info from?
@@hieioni3354 primogenitor
@@raro344Oh, the book? Cool, thanks!
I would argue that Call holds the overall advantage. Because Bile can't stick to a single project. Bile will build a new race, than promptly decide that the race was flawed. At which point he will abandon that race for a new one.
He stuck with the new men for a couple thousand years before making a reiteration
There is only one method to solve this dilemma: a bake-off.
Video starts at 3:01
guess you could say...
you got a Cawl'd, Weshammer
My favorite part of genefather is that Cawl has a necron wife now
Speak his TRUE name. Fabulous Bill.
"For my extra wide brothers and sisters" for a second I thought he meant his moobs.
Can Wes give a review of Bruva Alfabusa soon?
I was under the idea that time was sort of non-linear in the warp; time could pass faster OR slower but it doesn't really matter. Unless I'm wrong and it's explicitly said that time goes faster.
I'd say Bile is more intelligent but Cawl is more knowledgeable. Both characters are incredibly interesting though.
3rd option: Szeras is smarter than both
Accurately 3rd