I replaced over 200 showers and I can tell you that YOU ARE 100% RIGHT!!!. One very important thing is to install shower floor tile First and Grout it then shower curb before installing wall tiles. A lot of guy just don't have enough experience or just don't care about their work. I can tell that YOU are very detail orientated. Great Video!! Everyone should watch your video first before making any RUclips video about showers.
I'm at a loss of words for right now I've been waiting 3 days to watch this video hoping that to be something good in it and you sir have just made in my opinion the best tile shower pan video on the internet!!!!!! I've been trying to tell people this for years thank you so much as a 23 year tile veteran.......
What you said is absolutely true -- people often argue "that's how i learned it from my master of 40 years of experience." Well, technology and information changes over time. Many of the product diagrams have been updated now show that backer board floated from the mortar.
Thank you! I've been in the tile industry for 22yrs now and dealing with other installers/GC about these new mothods are not the way to do tile installs. thanks for shining the light on this topic!!!
Great video. We own Sutton Plumbing & Flooring. Remodle a lot of bathrooms and here in Oklahoma the only authority regarding the specs of a shower pan is in fact the plumbing code, specifically chapter 4 IPC, however, in our area there is little to no inforcement on pan test requirements by most of the inspectors we come across and it's honestly left a multitude of problems for homeowners as the quaility of home building in this area seems to be getting worse, and not better. Hence my appreciation for videos such as this. We actually build more slope in our preslope than in the actual finished floor, protect our weep holes and let the customer know of how the system is designed to work from the get go. It's parts of the sales pitch from the beginning actually. Keep up the good videos! Thanks again
In Oregon if you can fog a mirror your a " journey man tile setter". I cane up in trade in San Jose and joined a BAC #3 in Millbrae Ca. and served an apprenticeship and 1 Saturday a month went to trade school and still education with "Schluter" workshop. Thanks for insight and direction. Ive witnessed so much incompetence, money first and lack of prep in our craft. The worst was " Glad bags" duct tape together for a shower pan in a log cabin. Stay strong and educated and protect our craft for future generations.
I’ve been doing tile installation in California since 1984 and I appreciate how you explain the proper process and how failures occur…God Bless Brother! 👍🏻
Pre-sloping pan is the way to go. Have the liner come up 6" up behind walls and run walls 1/4" up from pan floor after it's sloped for tile. Oatey has a pre-lope kit you can use. Be smart and don't drive nails or screws in your curb, it's the #1 reason for pan failures. I'm not a fan of caulk on the corners it doesn't look matched with the grout. Use a modified grout to grout the tile and use a sealer as well. I like durock because of the rigidity. I've seen Schluter showers have wall tiles crack from lack of the rigidity in the underlayment. Oatey has a plastic diffuser for the weep underneath for the pre-slope. To bond over onto the pan liner on the curb you can use Phenoseal with Durock. I will clamp it together and let it set, then regard 2 coats and tile. If you have tile grout issues they should immediately be addressed.
Being an installer myself and watching endless debates and arguments in online forums, this is the simplest and best explanation on how to properly do a shower pan. I've been doing this for over 30 years with never a failure, while all these newcomers to the trades insist I'm doing it all wrong and I'm a hack stuck on outdated methods. LOL, Meanwhile all of them are scratching their asses trying to figure out why their jobs are failing...
Yep, exactly this. Contractors are stuborn folks. Lined pans should have been fazed out permanently years ago. The bonded drain and membrane or cloth membranes are soooo much better. When in use the pans dry in about 15 minutes. Even if there is a leak, MOST of the water is gone within minutes so who cares. Its just sooooo much better.
Gravel is no go for weep- lime builds up - use 1/8” rubber spacers - does not promote lime growth. Also not grout caulk, but 100% silicone. Pre sealing shower pan tile and sealing again 3 das after grouting with drytreat by StainProof will result in amazing results and a sealed shower that doesn’t need sealing every year. 🤙
30 years ago I was building custom homes as a super and we had a few pans leak. I have been telling guys not to put the durarock in the mortar bed ever since and build a pre slope. Guys would argue since you can’t nail the rock 6” from floor pouring the mud base against the rock keeps it secured. I always said that is wrong. Great video and glad to see I was doing it correctly. I would build the pre slope myself since sending tile guy was too expensive. Our plumbers would install the liner at rough. We would protect the liner with cardboard. We hung drywall and durarock by the drywall crew (of course I checked studs in showers for plumb and bowed studs first) and tile guy would pour the mud pan when they arrived for hard surfaces. Never had problems that way. Just people saying I was doing it wrong but no leaks or call backs 20-30 custom homes a year before the market crashed and now I do rentals lol but i miss home building now.
Nice video. Anchoring the cement board into the mud supports it along the bottom. Your cement board screws are supposed to be 2-3 inches above the curb height. Some installers place screws too low .
Thanks Sgt, doing my second shower pan today for my new job. The one my plumber and I did the first time was a trainwreck. 8:26 oh my god grout caulk what a fantastic product thank you for showing that
I run my pan liner usually around 8 inches up the wall, and my last fastener on the backer board is around 2 inches higher than the curb height. If you were using a cement backer board, I recommend waterproofing the bottom of it and running the mud to it because the mud pan will hold the backer in place and then when the mud pan is dry, tape and waterproof all of your corners around the perimeter, and at least 5 feet up each wall, and then waterproof the rest of the wall unless you are using a waterproof membrane and waterproof the floor
I can't thank you enough for this video, as I am re-building my shower because of how many mistakes I made. Do you have a good reference videos for "pre-sloping" a shower pan liner? I have concrete and I did not pre-slop my pan, but I used a perfect slope template the first go around. I want to do it perfect this time around and any help would be appreciated!
I agree always follow the manufacture instructions but sometimes their system is flawed, meaning there system isn't as waterproofed as they claim. The biggest issue l see is contractors rushing the process (dry time, don't have all the right material so they will use the wrong stuff and don't spend the time for detailed application of material). I will say this though the manufacturer has it wrong about the board being in the pan, it will wick and cause more damage. That's my 34 years of experience even in a completely done right install. Nice job on the video.
Ive seen thousands of zero pre sloap pans and have even had to use a shop vac to remove the water from the pan when I was doing the dimo on a leaking shower pan
THANK YOU for showing the correct layering in the beginning! I've watched SO MANY videos and some contradict each other. It's nice to see someone using CODE materials! And yes, I realize codes change, but not to the extent I'm seeing the contradictions in the videos I've seen. So, my dilemma is that we have a concrete floor (basement bathroom) and my husband already hung the concrete backer board before I put my pre-slope and liner down. Will it be an issue if I put the liner OVER the backer board by a couple inches and use my tile mortar to compensate for the surface level difference? FYI... I used seam tape to seal the seams already too... before I began watching any of the videos.
Sorry for the late response. It may be too late, but I wouldn’t recommend putting the liner over the backer board. This will invite opportunities for moisture to get behind the liner and into your wall. There is no way to guarantee a watertight seal with the liner on top of the backer board. Thinset and paintable waterproofing will have adhesion issues if used on the liner itself. Other than removing the bottom row of backer board to start over, you could cut and remove a 12 inch strip of backer board, install the liner and reattach the strips. This way you only have a small section to tape/waterproof.
Keep the grout and any natural stone tile sealed you'll probably be fine. Look at it this way, y'all saved so much money in labor that if need be you can re do the shower again later down the road if you have to. 😊
I built 15 showers over a period of about 10 years in an apartment building we owned. I used the preslope, liner, pan, tile approach on every one of them. I had one failure that I know of but the rest of the showers I built never showed any signs of leaking or other problems. The mistake I made on the shower that failed: The shower pan mortar was too wet. It was the first shower I built and I couldn't believe how dry the shower instructions said it should be. After seven or eight years the shower developed a bad odor. We demolished the pan and found that the weep holes were jammed with cement that had flowed into them. I did almost everything else the way this video suggested. I used Hardibacker and embedded it into the pan. This became controversial after my tiling days were over. But we didn't seem to have a problem with that. I didn't install the drain exactly the way the manufacture recommended. I installed the drain so that the least amount of cement under it was about 3/4 inch instead of installing it so that there was only about 1/4 inch of cement under it. I didn't like the idea of the preslope being as thin as 1/4 inch. The above step might have saved me because most instructions say to put tar paper under the preslope so the mortar doesn't have the water sucked out of it too fast. By the time I realized I wasn't doing that part right I had already built several showers and I never had a problem with it so I didn't put tar paper between the preslope and the plywood. I didn't use the inside corners initially, nobody seemed to carry them so I just thought the professionals must not be using them. Later on I ordered them through the internet. I never caulked the shower pans at the wall and the showers didn't develop the a crack between the wall and the pan. I don't know why that was. Maybe caulking the shower pans would have been a good idea but it also can be ugly. One reason cracks might not have formed at the base of the wall was that when the hardibacker was embedded in the pan the there was a very good connection between the wall and the pan. I built a cavity behind where the membrane went against the wall. The prevented a bulge at the bottom when I installed the hardibacker.
The kerdi method or others similar seems to be better than the preslope/rubber liner method. Ive seen so many problems with pan liners and even ones with a preslope. The mortar still stays saturated even with a preslope and using pea gravel for weep holes if its used once or twice a day. It takes awhile for wet mortar to dry out if it doesnt have much room to breathe. I dont disagree about having gravel around weep holes when installing pan liners but the funny thing is water travels through the mud to get to the weep holes so even if there wasnt gravel around weep holes the water will still drain into the holes through the mud. As far as imbedding the wall board into the pan mud i agree its not a good idea unless youre using a waterproof board that wont wick or absorb water.
Thanks for clarifying the different methods used, I was getting confused with all these new products. I agree about the board being in or out of the pan, that’s not the CAUSE of the failure, but I still prefer not to put it inside the pan. Thanks for sharing!
How long have you been doing the pre slope under the pan liners? I have only seen this in the last 5 years. I removed old shower pans that were 20 plus years old and they show very little seepage under the liner. I do think the pre slope is a good idea.
So, it's always recommended we install gravel around the drain for any moisture that's worked it's way down into the mortar bed. How is it the water can flow by gravity through the entire mortar bed but somehow won't make it into the drain if mortar surrounds the weep holes?
If there's a pre slope done it still takes time for the water to flow through the mud bed towards the drain. Water travels through the pebbles easier than through the mud bed so the gravel eases access to the weep holes and helps to prevent excess water accumulating in the area around the drain (where all excess water is directed in a properly installed pan).
@@hgsmasterclass3452 - I saw a video where a guy used silicone to prevent water from getting down the drain so it’s good to see someone doing the job right 👍
What causes excess water to build in the pan liner? Now that the kids are a bit older, my main tiled shower is used multiple times a day. I have access behind one of the walls and see water in the liner. Should I be using this shower less often to let evaporation work or would this be considered failed? Thanks for the videos
Thanks for this video. It makes complete sense. Before doing the annual grout / tile re-seal, how long do you generally need to let a shower floor air out? This one is made of river stones (installed over a traditional mortar bed with liner pan & pre-slope). Thanks!
If you have never sealed your shower and now plan to, I'd say don't run water in it for about 7 days then seal it. But I'm just a random guy so whatever.
I hope you can help me. We are trying to find the source of a weird smell in my daughter's room. We have cut every wall and have found no water. When we cut the wall where the shower is on the other side, there is absolutely no water on the studs, drywall, etc. I did put my fingers in behind the shower pan liner - membrane that was visible, and it seemed damp. Could this be my issue? Is it supposed to feel a bit wet? Thanks so much!!
Great job Marine. Thanks for putting this out, I've been watching so many tile videos and there has been so many different ways that I've seen. I'm glad someone put one out that was the right way.
I also believe that I should provide a gap between the backer board and the pan. Is a silicone bead required in this junction point? Also, I am applying the backer board to raw 2x4 walls Should I add a thin sheet of polyethylene behind the backer board extending 2" down in inside the Oatey pan material to insure wall moisture does not come in contact the wood wall structure?
Yes, silicone between wall and floor. Use foam wall board. Liquid flash seams & screws. Tape & flash Corners. Put a liquid membrane over your base / footer 2x4s - Hydro Ban Quick Cure or Manville This video became outdated tech as foam pans & sheet & liquid membranes replaced everything mentioned here.
So if your using sealer to keep the grout from soaking up water hows the water going to evaporate if it gets absorbed from the mud bed...kinda the same concept of a topical....
Water vapor can pass through sealer. The sealer repels the denser liquid water. We tested 60 mil thick HDPE and 1/1,000th of a gram of water passed through it every two days. It was 100 % humidity inside and 50 % humidity outside the water vessel.
Even if you waterproof your entire surface before tiles go in, it would be easier for evaporation to occur would it not? evaporation would only take place from the grout and the cement used and not have to evaporate through an entire mud bed. Also showers are used daily and I hardly doubt any water would get a chance to evaporate from an entire mud bed vs just thinset and grout. Tiling over an entirely waterproofed shower is the same as tiling over schluter, no water will ever get further than your waterproofing. Just my 2c
The problem with waterproofing the top of the post-slope is this, unless you're leaving room for the water to get down before it gets to the drain, (around the drain.) Because if you waterproof the 3/8 height that the drain sticks up after the post-slope, you just created a pool in the water will build up in there and sit until it has enough to get over the lip just like the bottom piece of the drain works but up top. So now you've created a pool. Stop waterproofing the top of post slopes please thank you have a good day
@@BonBon770 Bon, I've already red guarded my entire post-slope bed but left a half inch of mortar bare around drain for any extra water to seep down through the weep holes (I didn't use any gravel but if the point of mortar is to get wet and have water seep through then blocking weep holes is impossible). Will this work fine? I figured if I red gaurded the entire floor the water wouldn't have anywhere to go because it's covering the weep holes.
@@kendallritenow1309 if I was to waterproof the post slope which I do not because I use plastic weep hole protectors, efflorescence and calcium and iron and chemicals will cause we pause the clog over time that's why they say to use gravel like Riverrock smaller one, I used to and then I switched to the plastic weep hole protectors you can buy them online for like 10 bucks and 410 bucks it keeps the mud off of the weep holes I tried to explain this to people all the time but they don't really get it. If you waterproof all the way up beside of the drain when your tiling around the drain house water going to get up and over that quarter to three eighths of an inch? It doesn't it's it's in there so thank you very much for letting the weep holes work
@@kendallritenow1309 and for your information, I recently texted Sal de blasi and asked him how is the water supposed to get over the 3/ 8 tall linear drain, with a sealed system like Schluter. His response was the water will evaporate, and I just told him thank you but the truth is is that there will be sitting water in there and if you have natural stone on your shower pan it's going to discolor it even if you have regular tile all of the water will not get out of there with a traditional in and out system with a post-slope a pre-slope everything done correctly to a tea, there is less water held, when I mean held, I mean pulling or standing water, there will be no pooling or standing water with a traditional in and out mud system protecting the weep holes everything I just said. That is not true with a sealed system, there is no way water the residual water will jump over that height of the 3/ eight of the linear drain.
In a system like Kerdi, there is no 3/8” lip at the linear drain. The pan is flush with the rim of the linear drain and the waterproof membrane covers the top edge.
So when using the mortar and liner method, epoxy grout should not be used? I was considering it to improve the waterproof and not have to deal with moldy grout lines and sealants! What are your thoughts on epoxy grout?
I have a question that kinda related, yet off topic. My wife & I after 40 years, want to bring the washer & dryer upstairs onto the main floor. They will be placed on an outside wall. While the shut-off for washing machines is never turned off during vacation (And Should) I change the braided hoses every 5 years as I tag then with the install date plus date 5 years out. These are #1 in serious leaks. My question has to do with a copper drain pan under the washer in case of an internal part failure! The water level sensor is measuring the change in atmospheric pressure as water fills pushing against it. This could fail. I am a belt & suspenders guy who has seen everything fail to some degree on vehicles. I have been a service tech since early 70’s and became an ASE Master in 78. This is book smarts, knowing how to read a question but the 8 test include questions that only someone who has done it many times can answer correctly! Maybe I am getting ahead of myself, perhaps you did a video on this subject. I can’t find the “Search” feature on any channel with the app. Matter of fact, being retired I went 11 years with a phone. Just curious on your thoughts for saving hardwood floors and how best practices says it should be drained as I like to do things once and done. I won’t alway be here to be the fixer! Thanks! Enjoy what I see. DK, retired.
What can I do with the grout that has cracked in the corners. Just like your video and I have drain flies coming out of there. How do I get rid of those if I have moisture under there?
Our upstairs shower leaked through into our downstairs ceiling. We had a new contractor come out to fix the issue. He completely redid the shower pan but it leaked again. We had both him and the plumber come look at it and they determined too much water was leaking into the shower pan and it spilled over the top. They said the fix was to seal the grout. In this process we opened up the drywall on the other side of the shower. While cleaning the shower floor to prepare for sealing the grout I noticed there was water in the liner two days later after not turning on the water at all there is still water in the liner. Is that normal?
I've seen your video on building a shower pan. However, I am currently building a curbless shower pan on a concrete slab so it's a little different. I'm worried that I was advised wrong. We had to adjust some plumbing so we had a huge hole in the slab. We just recently filled it in with concrete and also chiseled the surrounding slab down at an angle of course. The guy helping me assured me that it was okay to cover the locking ring with the concrete which I believe means the weep holes are now covered with concrete. His next steps were going to be to put thin-set down, then schluter paper, and then I'm assuming tile on top of that. According to the diagram on this video at the 30 second mark, we should have left that locking ring and weep holes exposed. And we should be using a shower liner, then the thin set. 1) do I absolutely need to re-expose the locking ring/weep holes? 2) Do I need to use a shower liner like you use on top of the concrete or will the thin-set and shluter paper work? 3) Do you know of any good videos that show exactly how you think it should be done?
Thanks for sharing this . I thought I was crazy wondering where the water around the drain liner retainer was supposed to go lol . Sticking with tried and true here except for I use go-board (high dense foam with fiber infused coating on surface) for the bottom wall board . I still however leave a gap between the wall board and pan floor .
Hey can you PLEASE help.. we bought a pre sloped shower pan (the Styrofoam like material). We are building a large walk in shower with a linear drain along one side. We put thin set on the wood, then the pre-sloped panels, and I believe all that was needed after that was thin set and the tile. But... my husband put mortar on it and now its not level. Can you please let me know if we should remove/sand that? or just leave as is if it is level even though there are cracks? can we just put the waterproof membrane over that and it should be fine? I am desperately looking for how to move forward with this. Please help.
I've never built a shower and planning to do mine so pardon my ignorance. Here's a question that I have not seen addressed: Why tile a shower pan? I cannot wrap my brain around it. I've been studying how folks build showers and I nearly fell off the floor when I learned that grout & thinset are porous materials and it's an accepted fact of life that water will seep below the tiled floor. I'm hoping that someone can please explain why, in the 21st century, they'd build a shower floor of porous materials guaranteed to NOT be watertight. I see cans of grout sealer at the hardware store. Does it not work? Better yet why not eliminate tile and seal your mortar floor with a non-porous coating that won't pass moisture? Am I missing something or should the pre-sloped rubber liner weep-hole scheme have gone extinct a century ago? Thanks in advance for your insight.
I think the short answer is about tile expanding and contracting... If you look at Sgt. Donovan's video again, (and look at the Oatey instructions on using a vinyl pan liner (www.oatey.com/products/oatey-pvc-shower-pan-liner-1982292245) it clearly shows that the vinyl pan liner provides a fully waterproof (and time-tested) way to build the appropriate foundation to lay your tile on. Tile and whatever you adhere it to (usually mortar) is going to expand and contract. Currently there is no cost-effective material that allows you to provide a completely waterproof shower -- if you want a custom tile job. If you want a pre-built moulded shower pan, you can do that, but those come in set sizes and, if you are installing a shower in a non-standard sized space, that won't work. They are also overpriced. A mortar shower pan is fully customizable and reasonably priced and, when done correctly, as waterproof as any pre-moulded thing on the market. Some of those fail too. Hopefully my rambling note makes some sense, but if you watch a few more videos from Sgt. Donovan (ruclips.net/user/sgtdonovan), Sal DiBlasi (ruclips.net/user/SalDiBlasivideos), Tile Coach (www.tilecoach.com/) you will definitely get more answers to all your questions. These guys are all great (even if they don't always agree) they are true masters of the art.
Hey there! I am building a shower pan in the way you've detailed for tiling; however instead of tiles, i am planning on using microcement. for the rest of the walls of the shower (according to the microcement tips ive gotten) is to use red gard on the cement board prior to the microcement and then a sealer. My question is, if I am using a liner on the on the shower pan, are you saying (from the video above) that I should avoid using red gard on top of the 2nd layer of the mud mix (for me, prior to put a thin layer of microcement instead of tile) Thank you!
Dude, we have torn out countless shower pans (we do a lot of bathroom remodeling),..most of them with no slope, and almost all were done with pvc liner. To be honest, even though it appears to be a recipe for disaster,..it has only been rarely that this has been a problem...and when it has been a problem,..it was due to leakage..which caused dry rot. In fact,..the leakage itself was NOT due to no slope,..but was made worse by it because the water was not being fed to the drain by gravity...The water would usually find it's way to the leaky spot because it had all the time in the world to look for the leak.
Thanks for reporting this. I too have some doubts about the need for sloping mortar under the membrane. The author implies that the mortar can't handle being saturated with water, and fails for this reason, but concrete can spend its life under water. Perhaps other factors are more important, like water to mortar mix ratio.
The mortar failure comes down to 2 factors: cement type used, Post install maintenance (harsh cleaning chemicals used excessively and no sealing of tile/grout). Lots of home owners and tiler's will grab a back of type N cement, mix in the 2 parts sand and create the drypack (because type N is rated for inside use). Big mistake. Pan with 2 pats sand and 1 part Type N cement is only 16.5% Portland (grows stronger with water and time) while 16.5% of the mix (lime) will erode away from water over time (faster with use certain chemicals cleaners, and clog weep holes I might add). So now have micro-abscesses and barely enough binder to keep the material present held together, let alone resit impact shock or expansion and contraction For a pan with type S the results are a little better: 22.33% of the mix is Portland, while 7.66% is lime. Less abscess and more bonding retained, but still not ideal. Deck Mud (by Quickcrete) is roughly 65% sand, 30% Portland, and 5% fly ash), but that 30% Portland is true 100% Portland cement (type M cement). So that 30% of the mix will stay in place and bind the 70% together without wearing away from water intrusion even as the fly ash erodes (plus you don't lose any of the binder as the fly ash degrades). For reference: Type M - 3200 PSI - 100% Portland (all exterior purposes and load bearing applications below grade, loadbearing) Type S - 2200 PSI - 67% Portland - 33% lime (all exterior purposes and load bearing applications below grade, loadbearing) Type N - 1400 PSI - 50% Portland - 50% lime (above grade exterior and interior, loadbearing) Type O - 1000 PSI - 33% Portland - 67% lime (above grade exterior or interior for glass blocks, non-loadbearing) Type K - 750 PSI - 100% lime (practice mortar, above grade exterior or interior historical restorations, non-loadbearing) Then we get into the cleaners. Really strong acids and bases will erode Portland cement fairly quickly, and lime even faster, especially if it's applied and allowed to sit and absorb into the grout, thinset, and mortar pan. The effect is slower on grout (typically has a 45- 55% Portland composition) and a bit slower on thin set (30 - 40% Portland). Doesn’t matter thought bc capillary action will still carry the chemicals to the mortar pan, and it’ll erode fist because it has the lowest Portland content. Oatley and the writers of the IRC all know this, and it can be seen in their individual research publications. That's why they cover their butts and state that grout and tile should be sealed on an annual basis.
Iam in the middle of redoing our shower. My question is my curb is very long, it might be difficult for me to shape it with mud bed material. Whats your take on using backer board over 2x4 construction, then waterproofing the curb with topical membrane?
I would silicone any screws that shoot through pan liner and make sure they are stainless steel. I would still apply a couple of coats of hydroban on backerboard before mudpan is applied.
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I replaced over 200 showers and I can tell you that YOU ARE 100% RIGHT!!!. One very important thing is to install shower floor tile First and Grout it then shower curb before installing wall tiles. A lot of guy just don't have enough experience or just don't care about their work. I can tell that YOU are very detail orientated. Great Video!! Everyone should watch your video first before making any RUclips video about showers.
I'm at a loss of words for right now I've been waiting 3 days to watch this video hoping that to be something good in it and you sir have just made in my opinion the best tile shower pan video on the internet!!!!!! I've been trying to tell people this for years thank you so much as a 23 year tile veteran.......
What you said is absolutely true -- people often argue "that's how i learned it from my master of 40 years of experience." Well, technology and information changes over time.
Many of the product diagrams have been updated now show that backer board floated from the mortar.
Thank you! I've been in the tile industry for 22yrs now and dealing with other installers/GC about these new mothods are not the way to do tile installs. thanks for shining the light on this topic!!!
Great video. We own Sutton Plumbing & Flooring. Remodle a lot of bathrooms and here in Oklahoma the only authority regarding the specs of a shower pan is in fact the plumbing code, specifically chapter 4 IPC, however, in our area there is little to no inforcement on pan test requirements by most of the inspectors we come across and it's honestly left a multitude of problems for homeowners as the quaility of home building in this area seems to be getting worse, and not better. Hence my appreciation for videos such as this. We actually build more slope in our preslope than in the actual finished floor, protect our weep holes and let the customer know of how the system is designed to work from the get go. It's parts of the sales pitch from the beginning actually. Keep up the good videos! Thanks again
In Oregon if you can fog a mirror your a " journey man tile setter". I cane up in trade in San Jose and joined a BAC #3 in Millbrae Ca. and served an apprenticeship and 1 Saturday a month went to trade school and still education with "Schluter" workshop. Thanks for insight and direction. Ive witnessed so much incompetence, money first and lack of prep in our craft. The worst was " Glad bags" duct tape together for a shower pan in a log cabin. Stay strong and educated and protect our craft for future generations.
The customer went for glad bags?!?!?🫣😩🤦🏾♀️
I’ve been doing tile installation in California since 1984 and I appreciate how you explain the proper process and how failures occur…God Bless Brother! 👍🏻
have you used OATEY perfect slope ?system
Pre-sloping pan is the way to go. Have the liner come up 6" up behind walls and run walls 1/4" up from pan floor after it's sloped for tile. Oatey has a pre-lope kit you can use. Be smart and don't drive nails or screws in your curb, it's the #1 reason for pan failures. I'm not a fan of caulk on the corners it doesn't look matched with the grout. Use a modified grout to grout the tile and use a sealer as well. I like durock because of the rigidity. I've seen Schluter showers have wall tiles crack from lack of the rigidity in the underlayment. Oatey has a plastic diffuser for the weep underneath for the pre-slope. To bond over onto the pan liner on the curb you can use Phenoseal with Durock. I will clamp it together and let it set, then regard 2 coats and tile. If you have tile grout issues they should immediately be addressed.
Being an installer myself and watching endless debates and arguments in online forums, this is the simplest and best explanation on how to properly do a shower pan. I've been doing this for over 30 years with never a failure, while all these newcomers to the trades insist I'm doing it all wrong and I'm a hack stuck on outdated methods. LOL, Meanwhile all of them are scratching their asses trying to figure out why their jobs are failing...
I ditched these shower liners and 3 piece drains years ago. Now I use only bonded drains.
Yep, exactly this. Contractors are stuborn folks. Lined pans should have been fazed out permanently years ago. The bonded drain and membrane or cloth membranes are soooo much better. When in use the pans dry in about 15 minutes. Even if there is a leak, MOST of the water is gone within minutes so who cares. Its just sooooo much better.
It's nice to see someone that has the sense to do things the right way.
Good video. I agree people need to listen to manufacture recommendations. I did a shower 6 years ago w oaty liner and it’s still holding up well.
I installed two showers and this video covered every single issue. amazing video
Preslope is key. Then the liner. Then the final slope. Perfection.
Gravel is no go for weep- lime builds up - use 1/8” rubber spacers - does not promote lime growth. Also not grout caulk, but 100% silicone. Pre sealing shower pan tile and sealing again 3 das after grouting with drytreat by StainProof will result in amazing results and a sealed shower that doesn’t need sealing every year. 🤙
Great in depth video, i feel like most of us are using bonded drains and membranes now instead of liners and 3 piece drains
30 years ago I was building custom homes as a super and we had a few pans leak. I have been telling guys not to put the durarock in the mortar bed ever since and build a pre slope. Guys would argue since you can’t nail the rock 6” from floor pouring the mud base against the rock keeps it secured. I always said that is wrong. Great video and glad to see I was doing it correctly. I would build the pre slope myself since sending tile guy was too expensive. Our plumbers would install the liner at rough. We would protect the liner with cardboard. We hung drywall and durarock by the drywall crew (of course I checked studs in showers for plumb and bowed studs first) and tile guy would pour the mud pan when they arrived for hard surfaces. Never had problems that way. Just people saying I was doing it wrong but no leaks or call backs 20-30 custom homes a year before the market crashed and now I do rentals lol but i miss home building now.
Nice video. Anchoring the cement board into the mud supports it along the bottom. Your cement board screws are supposed to be 2-3 inches above the curb height. Some installers place screws too low .
Great video. It helped me catch the bad work that my contractor was doing before he could cover it up. Thanks for making it so easy to understand.
finally an intelligent shower pan video ive been doing them this way for over 40 yrs dont know why all of a sudden people thin k its wrong
Video definitely helped me. Your diagram of the construction layers was super helpful. Keep up the good work!
Great video, thanks for taking the effort and time to help clarify the right way to proceed.
Thanks Sgt, doing my second shower pan today for my new job. The one my plumber and I did the first time was a trainwreck. 8:26 oh my god grout caulk what a fantastic product thank you for showing that
I run my pan liner usually around 8 inches up the wall, and my last fastener on the backer board is around 2 inches higher than the curb height. If you were using a cement backer board, I recommend waterproofing the bottom of it and running the mud to it because the mud pan will hold the backer in place and then when the mud pan is dry, tape and waterproof all of your corners around the perimeter, and at least 5 feet up each wall, and then waterproof the rest of the wall unless you are using a waterproof membrane and waterproof the floor
I think that this is the only video that shows a pre slope under an Oatey Liner. This is correct.
I can't thank you enough for this video, as I am re-building my shower because of how many mistakes I made. Do you have a good reference videos for "pre-sloping" a shower pan liner? I have concrete and I did not pre-slop my pan, but I used a perfect slope template the first go around. I want to do it perfect this time around and any help would be appreciated!
Thanks for sharing and giving me the confidence to knock this project out!
Finally someone shows and tell the TRUTH,
I agree always follow the manufacture instructions but sometimes their system is flawed, meaning there system isn't as waterproofed as they claim. The biggest issue l see is contractors rushing the process (dry time, don't have all the right material so they will use the wrong stuff and don't spend the time for detailed application of material). I will say this though the manufacturer has it wrong about the board being in the pan, it will wick and cause more damage. That's my 34 years of experience even in a completely done right install.
Nice job on the video.
Well said. Was waiting for someone to speak up about that.
Isn't it possible the lack of preslope allows moisture to build up to a level that the backer board to stay wet for longer than it should?
Excellent description. I appreciate you explaining the cause of failures and the "mechanics" behind a method.
Helped a lot in my research for my bathroom project.
Ive seen thousands of zero pre sloap pans and have even had to use a shop vac to remove the water from the pan when I was doing the dimo on a leaking shower pan
Excellent Video! Please post a video showing how you pour your curb.
THANK YOU for showing the correct layering in the beginning! I've watched SO MANY videos and some contradict each other. It's nice to see someone using CODE materials! And yes, I realize codes change, but not to the extent I'm seeing the contradictions in the videos I've seen.
So, my dilemma is that we have a concrete floor (basement bathroom) and my husband already hung the concrete backer board before I put my pre-slope and liner down. Will it be an issue if I put the liner OVER the backer board by a couple inches and use my tile mortar to compensate for the surface level difference?
FYI... I used seam tape to seal the seams already too... before I began watching any of the videos.
Did you get a response on this?
@@JMen6 No. I wish I had.
Sorry for the late response. It may be too late, but I wouldn’t recommend putting the liner over the backer board. This will invite opportunities for moisture to get behind the liner and into your wall. There is no way to guarantee a watertight seal with the liner on top of the backer board. Thinset and paintable waterproofing will have adhesion issues if used on the liner itself. Other than removing the bottom row of backer board to start over, you could cut and remove a 12 inch strip of backer board, install the liner and reattach the strips. This way you only have a small section to tape/waterproof.
Keep the grout and any natural stone tile sealed you'll probably be fine.
Look at it this way, y'all saved so much money in labor that if need be you can re do the shower again later down the road if you have to. 😊
@@phillipkirby502 it’s all definitely sealed. Thanks for the reply. It’s also all concrete underneath everything.
I built 15 showers over a period of about 10 years in an apartment building we owned. I used the preslope, liner, pan, tile approach on every one of them. I had one failure that I know of but the rest of the showers I built never showed any signs of leaking or other problems.
The mistake I made on the shower that failed:
The shower pan mortar was too wet. It was the first shower I built and I couldn't believe how dry the shower instructions said it should be. After seven or eight years the shower developed a bad odor. We demolished the pan and found that the weep holes were jammed with cement that had flowed into them.
I did almost everything else the way this video suggested. I used Hardibacker and embedded it into the pan. This became controversial after my tiling days were over. But we didn't seem to have a problem with that.
I didn't install the drain exactly the way the manufacture recommended. I installed the drain so that the least amount of cement under it was about 3/4 inch instead of installing it so that there was only about 1/4 inch of cement under it. I didn't like the idea of the preslope being as thin as 1/4 inch.
The above step might have saved me because most instructions say to put tar paper under the preslope so the mortar doesn't have the water sucked out of it too fast. By the time I realized I wasn't doing that part right I had already built several showers and I never had a problem with it so I didn't put tar paper between the preslope and the plywood.
I didn't use the inside corners initially, nobody seemed to carry them so I just thought the professionals must not be using them. Later on I ordered them through the internet.
I never caulked the shower pans at the wall and the showers didn't develop the a crack between the wall and the pan. I don't know why that was. Maybe caulking the shower pans would have been a good idea but it also can be ugly. One reason cracks might not have formed at the base of the wall was that when the hardibacker was embedded in the pan the there was a very good connection between the wall and the pan.
I built a cavity behind where the membrane went against the wall. The prevented a bulge at the bottom when I installed the hardibacker.
The kerdi method or others similar seems to be better than the preslope/rubber liner method. Ive seen so many problems with pan liners and even ones with a preslope. The mortar still stays saturated even with a preslope and using pea gravel for weep holes if its used once or twice a day. It takes awhile for wet mortar to dry out if it doesnt have much room to breathe. I dont disagree about having gravel around weep holes when installing pan liners but the funny thing is water travels through the mud to get to the weep holes so even if there wasnt gravel around weep holes the water will still drain into the holes through the mud.
As far as imbedding the wall board into the pan mud i agree its not a good idea unless youre using a waterproof board that wont wick or absorb water.
What specific problems have you seen with a correctly installed pan liner which include a correctly installed pre-slope?
So you would not recommend to use red guard or any other water proofing agent on the pre slope or the shower pan? I’m doing mortar with a liner.
Thanks for clarifying the different methods used, I was getting confused with all these new products. I agree about the board being in or out of the pan, that’s not the CAUSE of the failure, but I still prefer not to put it inside the pan. Thanks for sharing!
I completely understand!
About to build a custom shower, do I need to used a cement board directly on the subfloor then the membrane? Or just the membrane?
Have you considered the tile redi system? No chance of that ever leaking and installs in 10 minutes
How long have you been doing the pre slope under the pan liners? I have only seen this in the last 5 years. I removed old shower pans that were 20 plus years old and they show very little seepage under the liner. I do think the pre slope is a good idea.
So, it's always recommended we install gravel around the drain for any moisture that's worked it's way down into the mortar bed. How is it the water can flow by gravity through the entire mortar bed but somehow won't make it into the drain if mortar surrounds the weep holes?
Its just easier for water to travel through larger pebbles then tiny ones.
If there's a pre slope done it still takes time for the water to flow through the mud bed towards the drain. Water travels through the pebbles easier than through the mud bed so the gravel eases access to the weep holes and helps to prevent excess water accumulating in the area around the drain (where all excess water is directed in a properly installed pan).
Don’t forget evaporation also takes place
@@dongately2817 Thank you for clarifying. 👍
@@hgsmasterclass3452 - I saw a video where a guy used silicone to prevent water from getting down the drain so it’s good to see someone doing the job right 👍
What causes excess water to build in the pan liner? Now that the kids are a bit older, my main tiled shower is used multiple times a day. I have access behind one of the walls and see water in the liner. Should I be using this shower less often to let evaporation work or would this be considered failed? Thanks for the videos
The liner wasn't put on top of a presloped bed so it is collecting water, or the weep holes are filled out
Marine grade Sikaflex is your friend over silicone. You can use it first and finish over with silicone too.
Best video I've seen on this. Thanks
Thanks for this video. It makes complete sense. Before doing the annual grout / tile re-seal, how long do you generally need to let a shower floor air out? This one is made of river stones (installed over a traditional mortar bed with liner pan & pre-slope). Thanks!
If you have never sealed your shower and now plan to, I'd say don't run water in it for about 7 days then seal it. But I'm just a random guy so whatever.
10 different tilesetters will give you 10 different answers on this and I definitely recommend a pre-slope
Question who is responsible for the pre slope, builder/plumber or the tiler?
I hope you can help me. We are trying to find the source of a weird smell in my daughter's room. We have cut every wall and have found no water. When we cut the wall where the shower is on the other side, there is absolutely no water on the studs, drywall, etc. I did put my fingers in behind the shower pan liner - membrane that was visible, and it seemed damp. Could this be my issue? Is it supposed to feel a bit wet? Thanks so much!!
Great job Marine. Thanks for putting this out, I've been watching so many tile videos and there has been so many different ways that I've seen. I'm glad someone put one out that was the right way.
Wow what a great video,GOD BLESS
Do you waterproof walls and the pan before start tiling and after following all these steps?
I also believe that I should provide a gap between the backer board and the pan. Is a silicone bead required in this junction point? Also, I am applying the backer board to raw 2x4 walls Should I add a thin sheet of polyethylene behind the backer board extending 2" down in inside the Oatey pan material to insure wall moisture does not come in contact the wood wall structure?
Yes, silicone between wall and floor.
Use foam wall board. Liquid flash seams & screws. Tape & flash Corners.
Put a liquid membrane over your base / footer 2x4s - Hydro Ban Quick Cure or Manville
This video became outdated tech as foam pans & sheet & liquid membranes replaced everything mentioned here.
Question: Do you still have to seal epoxy based grout? It’s not supposed to need it but I’m not any kind of expert
Is gravel used with custom fiberglass pans too, or just PVC liners?
Do you think the epoxy grout takes care of the sealing issue?
What is your opinion on epoxy grout in lieu of cementitious grout?
How would you attach the backerboard within the liner? Wouldnt screws create holes into the liner layer behind the backerboard?
So if your using sealer to keep the grout from soaking up water hows the water going to evaporate if it gets absorbed from the mud bed...kinda the same concept of a topical....
Water vapor can pass through sealer. The sealer repels the denser liquid water. We tested 60 mil thick HDPE and 1/1,000th of a gram of water passed through it every two days. It was 100 % humidity inside and 50 % humidity outside the water vessel.
Even if you waterproof your entire surface before tiles go in, it would be easier for evaporation to occur would it not? evaporation would only take place from the grout and the cement used and not have to evaporate through an entire mud bed. Also showers are used daily and I hardly doubt any water would get a chance to evaporate from an entire mud bed vs just thinset and grout. Tiling over an entirely waterproofed shower is the same as tiling over schluter, no water will ever get further than your waterproofing. Just my 2c
The problem with waterproofing the top of the post-slope is this, unless you're leaving room for the water to get down before it gets to the drain, (around the drain.) Because if you waterproof the 3/8 height that the drain sticks up after the post-slope, you just created a pool in the water will build up in there and sit until it has enough to get over the lip just like the bottom piece of the drain works but up top. So now you've created a pool. Stop waterproofing the top of post slopes please thank you have a good day
@@BonBon770 Bon, I've already red guarded my entire post-slope bed but left a half inch of mortar bare around drain for any extra water to seep down through the weep holes (I didn't use any gravel but if the point of mortar is to get wet and have water seep through then blocking weep holes is impossible). Will this work fine? I figured if I red gaurded the entire floor the water wouldn't have anywhere to go because it's covering the weep holes.
@@kendallritenow1309 if I was to waterproof the post slope which I do not because I use plastic weep hole protectors, efflorescence and calcium and iron and chemicals will cause we pause the clog over time that's why they say to use gravel like Riverrock smaller one, I used to and then I switched to the plastic weep hole protectors you can buy them online for like 10 bucks and 410 bucks it keeps the mud off of the weep holes I tried to explain this to people all the time but they don't really get it. If you waterproof all the way up beside of the drain when your tiling around the drain house water going to get up and over that quarter to three eighths of an inch? It doesn't it's it's in there so thank you very much for letting the weep holes work
@@kendallritenow1309 and for your information, I recently texted Sal de blasi and asked him how is the water supposed to get over the 3/ 8 tall linear drain, with a sealed system like Schluter. His response was the water will evaporate, and I just told him thank you but the truth is is that there will be sitting water in there and if you have natural stone on your shower pan it's going to discolor it even if you have regular tile all of the water will not get out of there with a traditional in and out system with a post-slope a pre-slope everything done correctly to a tea, there is less water held, when I mean held, I mean pulling or standing water, there will be no pooling or standing water with a traditional in and out mud system protecting the weep holes everything I just said. That is not true with a sealed system, there is no way water the residual water will jump over that height of the 3/ eight of the linear drain.
In a system like Kerdi, there is no 3/8” lip at the linear drain. The pan is flush with the rim of the linear drain and the waterproof membrane covers the top edge.
So when using the mortar and liner method, epoxy grout should not be used? I was considering it to improve the waterproof and not have to deal with moldy grout lines and sealants! What are your thoughts on epoxy grout?
splandid! nice information, I like this, thank you.
Hmm... but 50% of the tile showers I test fail the water/flood test because the liner is leaking.... What am I missing?
Does silicone adhere properly to PVC liners? Wouldn't a poly adhesive work better?
I have a question that kinda related, yet off topic. My wife & I after 40 years, want to bring the washer & dryer upstairs onto the main floor. They will be placed on an outside wall. While the shut-off for washing machines is never turned off during vacation (And Should) I change the braided hoses every 5 years as I tag then with the install date plus date 5 years out. These are #1 in serious leaks. My question has to do with a copper drain pan under the washer in case of an internal part failure! The water level sensor is measuring the change in atmospheric pressure as water fills pushing against it. This could fail. I am a belt & suspenders guy who has seen everything fail to some degree on vehicles. I have been a service tech since early 70’s and became an ASE Master in 78. This is book smarts, knowing how to read a question but the 8 test include questions that only someone who has done it many times can answer correctly!
Maybe I am getting ahead of myself, perhaps you did a video on this subject. I can’t find the “Search” feature on any channel with the app. Matter of fact, being retired I went 11 years with a phone. Just curious on your thoughts for saving hardwood floors and how best practices says it should be drained as I like to do things once and done. I won’t alway be here to be the fixer! Thanks! Enjoy what I see. DK, retired.
Is it acceptable for shower pan liner to have a seam running across the bottom of pan?
Thank you. Everything was explained well.
I'm off grade redo shower area steel I beam 3 lots of 3/8 rebar concrete base then perhaps a composite shower an. Flor .
Pre slope doesn’t need to add an extra day; just use wood furring strips around the perimeter and a rapid curing cementious patch sloped to the drain.
What can I do with the grout that has cracked in the corners. Just like your video and I have drain flies coming out of there. How do I get rid of those if I have moisture under there?
How is the dura board attached to the curb of a shower since you don’t want screw holes on the inside of the shower at that level??
Our upstairs shower leaked through into our downstairs ceiling. We had a new contractor come out to fix the issue. He completely redid the shower pan but it leaked again. We had both him and the plumber come look at it and they determined too much water was leaking into the shower pan and it spilled over the top. They said the fix was to seal the grout. In this process we opened up the drywall on the other side of the shower. While cleaning the shower floor to prepare for sealing the grout I noticed there was water in the liner two days later after not turning on the water at all there is still water in the liner. Is that normal?
Thank you Devil Dog, this helped a lot. Gunny
Excellent video. Thanks
Listen to ths guy. He knows how to build it right,
Great video! How much pre slope should you do?
1/4" per foot
I've seen your video on building a shower pan. However, I am currently building a curbless shower pan on a concrete slab so it's a little different. I'm worried that I was advised wrong. We had to adjust some plumbing so we had a huge hole in the slab. We just recently filled it in with concrete and also chiseled the surrounding slab down at an angle of course. The guy helping me assured me that it was okay to cover the locking ring with the concrete which I believe means the weep holes are now covered with concrete. His next steps were going to be to put thin-set down, then schluter paper, and then I'm assuming tile on top of that. According to the diagram on this video at the 30 second mark, we should have left that locking ring and weep holes exposed. And we should be using a shower liner, then the thin set. 1) do I absolutely need to re-expose the locking ring/weep holes? 2) Do I need to use a shower liner like you use on top of the concrete or will the thin-set and shluter paper work? 3) Do you know of any good videos that show exactly how you think it should be done?
If you're using kerdi then u need a kerdi drain (no weeps). You're using dissimilar products.
Thanks
Great info
I subscribed
Thanks!! Very educational.
Thanks for sharing this .
I thought I was crazy wondering where the water around the drain liner retainer was supposed to go lol .
Sticking with tried and true here except for I use go-board (high dense foam with fiber infused coating on surface) for the bottom wall board .
I still however leave a gap between the wall board and pan floor .
Great vid, thanks man.
Do you actually mortar around curb.
Oh, have you ever used wire mesh in mud pan.
Hey can you PLEASE help.. we bought a pre sloped shower pan (the Styrofoam like material). We are building a large walk in shower with a linear drain along one side. We put thin set on the wood, then the pre-sloped panels, and I believe all that was needed after that was thin set and the tile. But... my husband put mortar on it and now its not level. Can you please let me know if we should remove/sand that? or just leave as is if it is level even though there are cracks? can we just put the waterproof membrane over that and it should be fine? I am desperately looking for how to move forward with this. Please help.
I don't think that there is a video on RUclips using Oatey Pan Liner that uses or shows a pre-slope under the liner!
1st floor - concrete slab - recess at least 4' - wood floor - 1st or 2nd floor - use lead as the liner/pan
What about permabase? I've left it in a bucket or water for weeks and it's never wicked up
SGT IM A DISABLED VET SO 6800.00 goes no where house built in 1975 so stripping bath i got a hello. water damage so you hear me loud. Can you advise.
Are the foam tile backers boards included in your assumptions about capillary action??
I've never built a shower and planning to do mine so pardon my ignorance. Here's a question that I have not seen addressed: Why tile a shower pan? I cannot wrap my brain around it.
I've been studying how folks build showers and I nearly fell off the floor when I learned that grout & thinset are porous materials and it's an accepted fact of life that water will seep below the tiled floor.
I'm hoping that someone can please explain why, in the 21st century, they'd build a shower floor of porous materials guaranteed to NOT be watertight.
I see cans of grout sealer at the hardware store. Does it not work? Better yet why not eliminate tile and seal your mortar floor with a non-porous coating that won't pass moisture? Am I missing something or should the pre-sloped rubber liner weep-hole scheme have gone extinct a century ago? Thanks in advance for your insight.
I think the short answer is about tile expanding and contracting...
If you look at Sgt. Donovan's video again, (and look at the Oatey instructions on using a vinyl pan liner (www.oatey.com/products/oatey-pvc-shower-pan-liner-1982292245) it clearly shows that the vinyl pan liner provides a fully waterproof (and time-tested) way to build the appropriate foundation to lay your tile on. Tile and whatever you adhere it to (usually mortar) is going to expand and contract. Currently there is no cost-effective material that allows you to provide a completely waterproof shower -- if you want a custom tile job. If you want a pre-built moulded shower pan, you can do that, but those come in set sizes and, if you are installing a shower in a non-standard sized space, that won't work. They are also overpriced. A mortar shower pan is fully customizable and reasonably priced and, when done correctly, as waterproof as any pre-moulded thing on the market. Some of those fail too.
Hopefully my rambling note makes some sense, but if you watch a few more videos from Sgt. Donovan (ruclips.net/user/sgtdonovan), Sal DiBlasi (ruclips.net/user/SalDiBlasivideos), Tile Coach (www.tilecoach.com/) you will definitely get more answers to all your questions. These guys are all great (even if they don't always agree) they are true masters of the art.
Is a pvc shower pan liner AQUARIUM SAFE to place inside of an aquarium ?
Great Job its all in the details
Hi can you tell me if it is possible to create curbless shower using oatly liner 8f so can you give me some tips l would really appreciate
Hey there! I am building a shower pan in the way you've detailed for tiling; however instead of tiles, i am planning on using microcement. for the rest of the walls of the shower (according to the microcement tips ive gotten) is to use red gard on the cement board prior to the microcement and then a sealer. My question is, if I am using a liner on the on the shower pan, are you saying (from the video above) that I should avoid using red gard on top of the 2nd layer of the mud mix (for me, prior to put a thin layer of microcement instead of tile)
Thank you!
I gave up and bought a fiberglass base
Not me man. I'm about to do my first pan and 99.9% sure I can do it correctly
nice info, however i would like to see, more in depth on, if you have a wood floor starting or if you have a concrete floor starting. step 1234 etc
The install is the same
Dude, we have torn out countless shower pans (we do a lot of bathroom remodeling),..most of them with no slope, and almost all were done with pvc liner. To be honest, even though it appears to be a recipe for disaster,..it has only been rarely that this has been a problem...and when it has been a problem,..it was due to leakage..which caused dry rot. In fact,..the leakage itself was NOT due to no slope,..but was made worse by it because the water was not being fed to the drain by gravity...The water would usually find it's way to the leaky spot because it had all the time in the world to look for the leak.
Thanks for reporting this. I too have some doubts about the need for sloping mortar under the membrane. The author implies that the mortar can't handle being saturated with water, and fails for this reason, but concrete can spend its life under water. Perhaps other factors are more important, like water to mortar mix ratio.
The mortar failure comes down to 2 factors:
cement type used,
Post install maintenance (harsh cleaning chemicals used excessively and no sealing of tile/grout).
Lots of home owners and tiler's will grab a back of type N cement, mix in the 2 parts sand and create the drypack (because type N is rated for inside use). Big mistake.
Pan with 2 pats sand and 1 part Type N cement is only 16.5% Portland (grows stronger with water and time) while 16.5% of the mix (lime) will erode away from water over time (faster with use certain chemicals cleaners, and clog weep holes I might add). So now have micro-abscesses and barely enough binder to keep the material present held together, let alone resit impact shock or expansion and contraction For a pan with type S the results are a little better: 22.33% of the mix is Portland, while 7.66% is lime. Less abscess and more bonding retained, but still not ideal.
Deck Mud (by Quickcrete) is roughly 65% sand, 30% Portland, and 5% fly ash), but that 30% Portland is true 100% Portland cement (type M cement). So that 30% of the mix will stay in place and bind the 70% together without wearing away from water intrusion even as the fly ash erodes (plus you don't lose any of the binder as the fly ash degrades).
For reference:
Type M - 3200 PSI - 100% Portland (all exterior purposes and load bearing applications below grade, loadbearing)
Type S - 2200 PSI - 67% Portland - 33% lime (all exterior purposes and load bearing applications below grade, loadbearing)
Type N - 1400 PSI - 50% Portland - 50% lime (above grade exterior and interior, loadbearing)
Type O - 1000 PSI - 33% Portland - 67% lime (above grade exterior or interior for glass blocks, non-loadbearing)
Type K - 750 PSI - 100% lime (practice mortar, above grade exterior or interior historical restorations, non-loadbearing)
Then we get into the cleaners. Really strong acids and bases will erode Portland cement fairly quickly, and lime even faster, especially if it's applied and allowed to sit and absorb into the grout, thinset, and mortar pan. The effect is slower on grout (typically has a 45- 55% Portland composition) and a bit slower on thin set (30 - 40% Portland). Doesn’t matter thought bc capillary action will still carry the chemicals to the mortar pan, and it’ll erode fist because it has the lowest Portland content. Oatley and the writers of the IRC all know this, and it can be seen in their individual research publications.
That's why they cover their butts and state that grout and tile should be sealed on an annual basis.
Do you recommend a pre-slope and liner over a concrete slab floor. (The bathroom is all cement and concrete block.)
Yes.. it’s still needed.
Nice work 👍
Iam in the middle of redoing our shower. My question is my curb is very long, it might be difficult for me to shape it with mud bed material. Whats your take on using backer board over 2x4 construction, then waterproofing the curb with topical membrane?
I would silicone any screws that shoot through pan liner and make sure they are stainless steel. I would still apply a couple of coats of hydroban on backerboard before mudpan is applied.
Semper Fi thank you Marine!