I side with Kematu. One interesting bit I discovered once is if you bring Saadia out to Kematu and kill her in front of him, Kematu will say "All that effort and you just kill her? You've ruined everything!" If Kematu really was going to kill Saadia even after the player leaves, why would be so angry with the player?
I disagree, anyone that hires bandits and hides in a cave with them is clearly not a good guy. No one can explain that. I find Saadia's story only a little suspicious but she's not rude and arrogant like most nobles would be when you first meet her, also if you think about the fact that many of Hammerfell's nobles may have ended up corrupt and secretly was siding with the Thalmor, then Saadia could have been ratting them out to the military, then that can clearly explains why assasins would be sent after her, because those nobles could just be trying to get in good with the Thalmor. It makes sense if you think it that way.
@@futuregenesis97you forget one really important thing about Redgurds. They are extremely racist to elves! Would an entire group of elven racist work with there bigget enemies? On top of that, would the High Elves stup down to work with people they view as below them? Look at how they treat the races that they are allied with.
11:05 In Kematu’s defense, whether he’s lying, telling half truths or telling the whole truth, either way his operation *is* illegal, and Hammerfell isn’t on great terms with the Empire either, so he risks losing his men in a skirmish if they came across an Imperial patrol as well as a Stormcloak war band. Hiding out with outlaws and sending out small parties to scout for intel was the best he had to work with. He’s clearly very experienced/seasoned as a warrior
Jup, he is basically a foreign agent, moving in to capture a wanted person, acting without consent of the local government. I have no idea how the political situation between Hammerfell and the Empire is, but Hammerfell is most likely independent at that point in time. So the proper way would be for Hammerfell to inform authorities in the Empire and/or Skyrim (depending on how the Hammerfell government sees the civil war) to capture and extradite her.
@@HappyBeezerStudios That is in fact literally what he is lol; and yes at this time Hammerfell is I believe fully independent from the Empire. And with both the civil war and dragon threat ongoing, the cities are closed to them, making any appeal to any local authority next to impossible, especially after being caught sneaking into Whiterun. So I don’t blame them at all for operating as outlaws; I’d do the same in their position.
I usually side with Saadia, because I am not a TES-Lorebeard, and I think she has a more pleasant voice. But they're both good choices if you ask me. @@masterneloth
So you're a TES lorebeard, but you don't care about the TES lore that says that Kematu's story makes _zero_ sense if you look at the timeline (unless you assume that a 50-60 year old Saadia would be considered a "pretty face")?
@@Wolf-ln1mlwe are in at Most her mid 40s. This isnt that old. And Kematus Story makes sens while Saadias dosent make any. Saadia fleed from the Thalmor from Hammerfell to Skyrim Hammerfell is a refuge for peopel fleeing from the Dominion Skyrim has Thalmor Justicars running around the Place
So I heard a theory that Saadia is the guilty one. This is because she claims she got in trouble for speaking out against the Thalmor. However she’s from hammerfell who gained their independence from the Thalmor. So even though I dispise the alliker, I think saadias more likely to be guilty.
Guilty or not she's in Skyrim outside Hammerfell's jurisdiction meaning it up to the Nords to tack her down and decide whether or not to hand her over to Hammerfell
I think I saw that the urn thing might just be a game mechanic thing. The games default for when a character leaves the game is to put them in their holds cemetery
I hate that argument. The game presents us with a certain reality - we either accept it, or we question some aspect of it. _Which_ aspect you question would be a matter of personal bias. I go with the full "reality", and that says that both are blatantly lying. Personally, I'm convinced it's simply a wannabe "moral dilemma" quest that's so badly written that it actually makes zero sense. Which would match the overall quality of story writing coming from Bethesda since Skyrim...
@Wolf-ln1ml the game very clearly has mechanics that arent meant to be taken as reality. No one reads a spell book once and can suddenly cast a spell perfectly. Horses cant climb vertically like spiders, etc. Taking the urn with a grain of salt because of the game mechanics is perfectly valid, especially considering it'd make ZERO sense for them to off Sadia and then ship her *back* to whiterun for burial. Like, for what? That's not where she or her family is from. But yeah, in agreement for the writing. Bethesda seems far too comfortable half-doing everything, and comparing their relatively new games and new games from some others (like baldurs gate 3) puts a glaring spot light on that.
@@Kuhboose1 Skyrim is full of bugs and oversights, Saadia being one of them is 100% believable. Like for example, Nazeem has a key to a house that doesn't exist. My guess is that they never put in a code to remove her remains from whiterun if the player sides with kematu.
I have a 4th hypothesis on Saadia's coffin. What if after the paralysis spell wore off, she tried to fight back and escape and was accidentally killed in the struggle? If Kematu had malicious intent, why would he bring her body back to Whiterun to be buried instead of just...throwing her in a ditch somewhere? If she was killed in accidental self defense he could go up to a guard like "Hey, this woman attacked me and I killed her defending myself, could you bury her here? It is where she lived", he'd have no reason to hide the body afterall
He could also take the remains to Hammerfell. If he is telling the truth, he was contracted to bring her back. If she dies, he has nothing to show. But if he brings her remains, he brings proof that she died. Which might be enough for the courts (or whatever) in Hammerfell to consider the thing over.
I think the most interesting possibility is that the people of Whiterun put up an empty burial urn because to them Saadia just disappeared. They may have thought she just lost her life to bandits or something
I absolutely love this quest and I’m glad to see it still getting debated over a decade later. When I first found it I agonized over who to trust, and I still wrestle with it on pretty much every playthrough. But I disagree that Kematu is necessarily better, or that there even is a “right” choice here - cue wall of text. First off, I agree that Saadia’s story is absolutely swiss cheese. It makes no sense for Hammerfell to persecute Thalmor protestors, or for Saadia to hide in Thalmor-patrolled Skyrim, or for Saadia to even be as old as her claims would make her. Granted on all points, she’s totally lying. But Kematu’s story is also sketchy. Why not pursue Saadia through official channels? Skyrim and Hammerfell are longstanding allies, and Jarl Ballin is neutral in the rebellion - the Thalmor can’t really boss him around. We’d expect Hammerfell to just request extradition for a traitor hiding in Whiterun - at least as a formality, before sending their elite honor guard to carry out an illegal kidnapping in a foreign country! On top of this, there’s no evidence whatsoever to back up Kematu’s identity or claims. He doesn’t offer any arrest warrants or proof of ID. His crew is hiding in a bandit den and wandering around accosting random Redguard women. For a state-sanctioned assassin squad, don’t they seem a bit underfunded? And even if you kill Kematu and his pals, there’s nothing to back up his story on any of their bodies or in their lair. No official orders, no journals, nothing. For me this is the nail in the coffin. In a game so reliant on textual exposition for its quests, the lack of any clear evidence at the end suggests to me that Bethesda intentionally kept this one ambiguous. Kind of like the Civil War, there are compelling reasons why both sides suck. So, to recap: Saadia’s story holds no water, and Kematu’s mostly makes sense but is missing literally any proof at all. Fine, except Kematu is the instigator here. Saadia was just chilling in the Bannered Mare until his crew showed up ready to stuff her in a bag, so the burden of proof is kind of on him. My personal suspicion? Both sides are full of it and just tell you what you want to hear - they spin a yarn that paints the other guy as a Thalmor lover and hope you bite. Maybe it’s a house rivalry back in Hammerfell, or a gang that had a falling-out, or hell, a soured romance between Saadia and Kematu. I don’t know. What I do know is that my characters usually feel a responsibility to Skyrim and her citizens first and foremost. So in the absence of substantial evidence either way, I usually side with Saadia, who - regardless of her past - has been nothing but an upstanding citizen since I got here and seems only to want to be left alone. By contrast, Kematu’s squad, even if they’re right about her, is walking around harassing innocent women and funding bandit factions in MY country. I generally find it more palatable to tack a few bodies onto the end of clearing a bandit hideout than to coldly lure a person who’s chosen to trust me to their paralysis and abduction on zero real evidence. Plus, in Kematu’s own words, she’s a pretty face :)
You're forgetting that Hammerfell has traditionally been stuck in a constant low-to-high-level civil war, between the Crowns (who want to make the early Ra-Gada warlords the succession of the old Yokudan monarchy, and WILL insist they're the government even if they're not the ones ruling at the moment-- it's a very antipope situation), Forebears (who want a new, non-monarchic government system), and some intermediate compromise-seekers who tend to not have much success reunifying either side. We literally can see that divide in Redguard on Stros M'Kai, albeit slanting to the Crown faction's side as Cyrus finds their anti-Imperial-occupation freedom fighters useful allies against an Imperial governor who makes House Hlaalu look collectively morally pristine. It's sketchy, but that sketchiness matches what we know of Crown-supporting Stros M'Kai resistance groups the way Redguard portrays them. And it would match Saadia being a _Forebear supporter_ , the ones who support the Empire usually-- and in this case, who'd be seen as a Thalmor supporter. Kematu being a Crown freedom-fighter, with "officially sanctioned" being possibly in air quotes depending on if Hammerfell is currently led by a Forebear or a Crown, and Saadia being a Forebear who supported the Empire, is the scenario that holds the most water. Saadia's guilty of SOMETHING, but whether it is that she's part of an Imperial Guild (or a less official Iliac Bay coalition of loose guilds that produces a lot of locksmiths and bankers and accountants...) that got caught in the "all Empire sympathizers are Thalmor spies!!!!" fanaticism, or she's genuinely sold Crown intelligence to the Thalmor is the part that's actually in the air. For all we know she's just part of an Iliac Bay thieves' guild and a Forebear and that's enough for Crown nationalists, and it would also explain why she's not going "I'm a spy, yes, but for the thieves' guild, my job is fleecing nobles" or otherwise declaring her illegal activities. (Or just as likely, she could be a spy alright, but for a High Rock kingdom and not for Thalmor in Hammerfell -- Daggerfall did hint that Forebears can and do scheme with High Rock nobles to gain power in the Iliac Bay, see Gothryd of Daggerfall wedding Akorithi, and Queen Aubh-Ki of Sentinel getting influence in Daggerfall for that arrangement.)
I'm firmly in the "Both of these people are lying" camp when it comes to this quest, but I really wish the ambiguity had been taken even further by being able to call them out on the inconsistencies in their stories. While I understand that it's an advantage for new players, it's so disappointing (and immersion-breaking) that the DB acts like they're fresh off the boat from Akavir and knows literally nothing about Tamriel, no matter their background. There's absolutely no way my Redguard DB who literally had to flee Hammerfell for being an elven supremacist Thalmor sympathizer (she's weird like that) would take Saadia's story at face value even though it's the complete opposite of what she herself experienced. It'd be fun if Saadia and Kematu adjusted their claims slightly depending on the Dragonborn's race or quest decision, maybe playing up the Thalmor angle for a Stormcloak DB or dropping it entirely for an Altmer DB. That way, it would be even harder to pick a side and you could really roleplay your decision depending on who that particular character would be more likely to sympathize with.
Late af but man that'd be pretty neat. But Bethesada likely wouldn't go that deep unfortunately not in their current state. I mean way I heard seems they won't even put TES6 out until after Fallout 5 like what?
What holes/inconsistencies are there in Kamatu's story? He said she sold out a city to the Thalmor, Hammerfell ultimately won the war and are now looking for justice. Sounds pretty solid to me. Saadia's story makes no sense whatsoever. She's fled a place where the Thalmor have been thoroughly ousted to a place where the Thalmor have significant influence because she spoke out against the Thalmor? Either she's too dumb to let live or she's a lier, either way the choice is pretty simple, unless you think she's a lier and are also a Thalmor sympathizer in which case wouldn't you side with her?
@@jakeand9020 perhaps this will help? have you ever thought that maybe both of them were telling the truth but projecting a story in their own way? for example: saadia says she's being chased by the Alikir, and she has no idea why but to assume that they were employed by the thalmor, which makes sense since she spoke out against them. and Kematus point was that Saadia sold her nation to the Thalmor and were it not for her betrayal, they would of held their ground against the thalmor. Kematus dialogs also includes that it isn't him personally whose trying to bring her back, but the house of nobles who employed the Alikir assassin's to bring her back alive. i concluded that the way the story happened went like this: Saadia Spoke out against the thalmor, in front of the house of nobles, the house of nobles were against the idea of someone being openly hostile against the thalmor, and this perhaps gave an excuse for the Thalmor to invade Hammerfell, so they blamed Saadia for antagonization, and tasked the alikir to bring her back and publically execute her in front of the Thalmor embassies for good show of faith. which is also why kematu was upset when you killed her in front of him. I don't think either of them were lying to you. this is most likely a common misunderstanding open to make the player choose. cause in a way, even if you knew the full story, there's no right and wrong here, you can either fulfil kematus goal bringing her back to the nobles and potentially resolve a political dispute, or you can save saadia and help her start over. also "She's fled a place where the Thalmor have been thoroughly ousted to a place where the Thalmor have significant influence because she spoke out against the Thalmor?" If you look at the map, she only had three places to run to, Cyrodil, high rock or Skyrim, and given the travel expenses, if she really "sold" her people to the Thalmor, she would of gotten enough money to go further, or she would of taken shelter with the Thalmor. since she contributed, and would serve as proof for hammerfells rebellion. She wouldn't go to cyrodil or high rock because theyre more closer to Summerset isles, so her safest option is Skyrim since they are at war, and currently trying to keep the thalmor out of skyrim. the Imperials have more authority there than the Thalmor, and they only allow the Thalmor to act as enforcers to ensure the imperials do their job, and snuff out any talos worshippers. as they don't care for the war between the stormcloaks and Imperials.
Personally, I think both are lying - perhaps she ran from a bad marriage. Both have inconsistencies in their stories, plus I do not believe noble warriors would pay bandits to hang out in their cave when they could easily wipe them out (and when some of them are staying in the tavern in Rorikstead, so, like, they could just all do that, or split between there and Riverwood?)
why Kematu not make sense? Besides, the noble warriors are in a land that is very hostile to them, what's wrong with pay bandits and stay in their cave?
@@jianhaogao7608 Noble warriors (who very easily could simply kill the bandits that I, a single individual managed to kill on my way to them) would not sully themselves by paying bandits to let them stay in a cave, why would they? They adhere to a strict code of honour by all accounts, why would they pay criminals, regardless of being refused entry to a city?
@@starilvara first they are mercenary not noble warriors, second you are suggesting kill all the bandit and take their home, which sounds pretty bandit for me, third why Saadia have to lie if she is not a Thalmor dog,
I don't think either said is telling the whole truth. Because Hammerfell signed a seperate treaty with the dominion so saying the resistance is alive and well is false. But during the war she still could have betrayed them. I don't believe her myself but I also don't believe the assassins. But the way politics is in all those places it could be something way more complicated as they are next to High Rock and had their own border problems with Skyrim in the past as well. So all those noble families might just doing a little political intrigue using the dominon war as an excuse.
Well the Second Treaty of Stros M’Kai pushed the Dominion completely out of Hammerfell so the resistance against the Dominion IS alive and well. Especially after their 5 year war that they won.
but why would they need a Resistance? That's usually a movement within an occupied country (or maybe one with a bad government) - a Resistance movement against the Thalmor would make sense in Valenwood, Elsweyr, even Alinor, but not really in a country that's totally free from Thalmor rule/interference
@@starilvaraRed guards have a natural hatred for elves. So they are most likely supporting other seperatist groups outside of hammerfell. Also, the aldmeri dominion threat is still alive, as if the empire collapses, they might try another invasion of hammerfell. Also, she might have betrayed hammerfell in the great war, not the hammer fell-aldmeri dominion war.
@@starilvara It could be more of their little... Crown VS Forebear fighting thing they've had going since the First Era when they didn't agree on who should be leading Hammerfell. They do seem to love infighting over Yokudan tradition (which also usually tends to be the freedom fighters against external rulership) VS modernity (the side that usually aligns with the Empire when it comes to conflicts) Basically this strikes me as a return to Hammerfell's status quo: one side is willing to abide by the second treaty of Stros M'Kai, the other is not fine with their freedom costing them whatever the Treaty demands of them in exchange for the Thalmor getting out.
@@neoqwerty I sadly suspect Bethesda forgot what exactly is supposed to be going on in Hammerfell at that exact time, just as they had completely contradictory accounts on the state of Morrowind.
I'm about to end everyone's whole careers lol. You know how quests have you go across skyrim to find a sword in a bandit den or clear out a chief? Khematu is in a bandit lair and part of the bandit faction in code. It's bethesda style for you to do good deeds clearing dungeons. Khematu is a dungeon boss. The quest is titled "in my time of need" something a damsel in distress would say, not hammerfell police/bounty hunters. If you played elder scrolls long enough, it should be obvious khematu is meant to be killed just as any other final boss.
Another possible explaination in-game for Saadia's death resulting in her burial in Whiterun: the Alik'ir were serious about bringing her to trial in Hammerfel, but not long after their departure, Saadia managed to escape. But the Alik'ir succesfully tracked her down again and, deciding she was too much of a flight risk, took it upon themselves to kill her so she would pay for her crimes. Even if was not ideal from their perspective, they still carried out their task. And because hauling a dead woman all the way back home was going to bring trouble, they had her burned and interred in Whiterun after obtaining proof of her capture.
@@iam-v8498 see, there is where the egotistical murderhobo comes into play. You just let yourself get paid by both, then slaughter them and take the loot from both.
Kematu. Simply because, when you do your Elder Scrolls lore, you'd know that what Saadia tells you doesn't actually add up. Now, any new player can get dupped simply because Saadia sounds sultry, and Kematu talks almost like a rude dude. But the important thing to remember is that no matter the attitude of a person, it's the value of the information that counts.
I don't know where you came from, but I'm glad you appeared on my recommendations. Good video lengths, amazing presentation skills, nicely researched as well. You'll likely be the next channel I leave on in the living room as background sound while I do whatever is needed for the day!
There's a 4th possibility about Saadia's urn in Whiterun. She might have attempted to escape and Kematu was forced to kill her so she wouldn't get away yet again.
His low profile with bandits makes perfect sense to me considering thalmor presence in skyrim but idk maybe im oversimplifying, its just sometimes the simple answer is the one
I always kill Kematu for the simple fact that he made me kill all the bandits just to get to him. Then he wants to talk after seeing the trail of bodies I left behind. Off with his head...
If the Thalmor wanted Saadia dead, all they'd have to do is accuse her of Talos worship and they could just take her there and then, and if the guards won't let them in because they don't want to oust Balgruuf as a Talos worshiper with his statue to Talos or that Heimskr spouting Talos proper gander, the Thalmor would just send a Bosmer or Khajiit assassin to do her in, and if the assassin gets captured or killed by the guards, so long as they killed Saadia, who cares, not them.
Like there may be a few reasons to see one as more credible than the other, but there isn't anything in game that give you a definitive answer. Glad nothing like that happened ever happened in real life...
I side with Saadia, always. She can be useful to me after the quest is completed. It's always nice to have eyes and ears inside the biggest tavern in the city, especially in a hold as large and centrally located as Whiterun. As a servant, she's also pretty much invisible to the patrons so they won't be as guarded when they see her moving around. Also, having saved her, if she's going to be loyal to ANYONE (not guaranteed, granted), it'll be to the person who bailed her out of a bind and allowed her to live without looking over her shoulder. She'd be less likely to betray you too, just in case the Alik'r send another group after her (she'd need an ally as powerful and influential as the Dragonborn). Kematu is useless, even when he's in Skyrim (and I play Redguards).
Soon as Saadia said the Alik'r were assassins from the Dominion i was like.. wait.. what?.. they are at war with each other.. not working together.. From that moment on and every other play through after that, she ended up at the stables, stiff as a board =P
Meanwhile I downloaded a mod that permantly paralyses the target without triggering hostilities and can't be dispelled without the accompanying cure paralysis spell and left her on a bed in one of the inns guest rooms for the guests to "enjoy" for the rest of the game.
I usually side with Kematu, because even without all the historical background, his objective must be important to send him & his men all the way from Hammerfell. This is not a time when you can casually travel half way across the world.
And yet they have no papers from the Hammerfell government explaining their mission. Instead they let themselves get kicked out of the city and hunker down in a bandit cave halfway across the hold (with bandits still in it). They don't even have the funds to rent a room in Riverwood, which is much closer than the cave. Not taking Saadia's side here. But isn't it a bis suspicious that Kematu's mission is important enough to send him all that distance at that time, but not give the necessary resources to make sure he finds and captures her?
I didn't know about the burial urn. The explanation that Hammerfell didn't give a crap and just threw her body in Whiterun again is hilarious and I can definitely see them doing that 😂
Imperial ending: Save Saadia Stormcloak ending: Save Kematu Dark Brotherhood ending: Kill both, get double the money Honestly, they are both lying, Saadia is probably the ex of Kematu, who is really just a gang boss. They both have invented the Thalmor BS story, to not actually look morre closely into their story. Saadia wants to leave her criminal past behind and Kematu wants Saadia silenced, because she knows too much. The Thalmor are just cover story and I don't believe the either has really anything to do with Thalmor, really...
Actually I realized recently that there may be another theory: Saadia is an imperial spy working undercover as an Thalmor symphatizer. I mean imperials work with Thalmor and that would explain she doesn't want to tell the whole story,. Kematu maybe had found out and maybe Kematu and his nationalis bunch are working with some nationalist movement in Hammerfell and/or has some antipathies against the Empire. I mean one of his men is already in jail and they act very rudely against the townguards. But even presuming Kematu knows she is an imperial spy, he won't blow her cover, because taking her back as a Thalmor symphatizer makes it much more easier to do anything to her (including execution) than if people would find out that she is an imperial spy. Besides the scandal what it would cause to the Empire if Saadia's role as a possible imperial double agent with the civil war going on and Empire having one its weakest emperors. Saadia being an agent could also explain why she found an asylum in a city that is currently under imperial rule rather than Stormcloaks...
I looked up who was in the right because fighting him and his army was WAAAY too much for me. Surprised how she didn’t have that much emotion after being betrayed by us. Even if he was right, I still kinda feel bad. Still fooled by that pretty face, I suppose (or rather her having the appearance of a innocent innkeeper assistant, even if she pulled a knife on me).
I love you manage to cover old mysteries with a sense of humor and amazing narroration that I'm as interested as I was when skyrim first came out decades ago 😂
What I don’t get is why kematu and his goons were hiding out with a killer bandit group, but honestly I like siding with Saadia because she’s the only npc in the game that actually takes your order when you sit down
i think its more likely that the urn is there because someone put it there thinking she died, like the tavern lady. That is if that thing doesnt happen every time a whiterun npc dies
My dragonborn couldnt find any truth in between either, thus he took things based on actions. Saadia: - works hard in the Bannered Mare, contributing to Skyrim. - has yet to commit crimes in Skyrim Assasins: - annoys women all over Skyrim - hides out alongside BANDITS - guards refuse to let them into the city - untrustworthy
Funny how he suggests that she exploited your sense of greed and then promises wealth if you do what he says. I just want the curved swords. Curved. Swords. Plus I don’t like telling lies, which is required if you side with Kematu.
I find it odd that a bunch of noble warriors whose society has a partictular disdain for magic so much so that there exists a strong stigma towards it would be so comfortable using the stuff, I know not all Redgaurds reject magic in fact Sword singers basically use magically tempered weapons but they despise the ''cowardly'' types of magic such as Necromancy illusions or traps etc.. still Its all common to see a redguard mage who uses destruction spells in wars so who knows, I still find it odd though that out of all the magic schools he uses a cowardly Alteration paralysis spell.
13:23 i wanna pose a 4th option! Perhaps when saadia “disappears” they give her an urn with the belongings she undoubtedly left in white run when she came with you to kematu. They assume she’s dead so they give her an urn to memorialize her, but with no remains to be found, it doesn’t contain any ashes
The thing is in the elder scrolls lore she states that she spoke against the aldmiri dominion however if you check the time she left from hammerfell the aldmiri dominion isnt in the region at all. This actually makes kematu's explanation actually make sense.
There's far too of a Thalmor presence in Skyrim for Kematu to be right. No way in hell the Thalmor would miss 40 odd Alik'r warriors traveling in one big group across Skyrim looking for one of their assets. Sadia has to be the one telling the truth.
If Kematu was in Skyrim on official business, they would probably be allowed to stay at the inns as paying customers assuming they don’t cause trouble. Otherwise they could just make their own camp outside the city, or wherever they want. They wouldn’t put up with bandits in a secluded cave. To me that says Kematu went rogue (assuming he ever had any official authority at all, but is abusing it), and probably doesn’t even want his superiors and/or the government of Hammerfell to know where he is or what he’s doing. So maybe Saadia has some damaging evidence against Kematu specifically. Could be a crime Kematu committed, corruption, etc but he doesn’t want it to get out. That said, yeah why not just kill her (assuming the coffin is just a game mechanic)
Consider the political/wartime scenario that Tamriel is in though. Whether Kematu’s lying or not, his operation would be illegal anyway because it’s not official business; Hammerfell is ceded from the Empire and Whiterun Hold during Balgruuf’s rule is Imperial aligned, even though initially he’s not committed to the war effort. So if Kematu is indeed acting on Hammerfell’s behalf it’s not exactly damning or contradictory that he’s acting outside the law while operating within Skyrim
What's the first thing Saadia does? Oh yeah, she tricks you asking for help into a room before pulling a knife on you, also Saadia says "they are willing to pay jarls and guards" and right after "there is one in the jail"... Like... Get some better lies...
I like having a unique cocktail servant when I’m in town, and she’s pretty. Otherwise she just vanished and nothing changes. Also I wanted some free curved swords.
Why would they bother? It's not like Whiterun would send people to Hammerfell to get her back. So why would the Alikr care if her disappearance would be noticed?
There are some inconsistancies which always bugged me with the Alik'r, 1) their story seems off, they talk about the resistance to the Dominion in Hammerfell, but the wars over, the Dominion lost and was pushed out of Hammerfell so its a odd phrasing. 2) How did a single random noble woman hand a city over to the Thalmor, kill a bunch of guards and let them in a gate? Saadia has a knife but if she was that capable she wouldnt be asking The Dragonborn to dispose of Kematu and freinds, she could head off to Swindlers Den herself and do it. 3) for an elite band of mercenaries, they're pretty poorly equiped, no armor just the Redguard equivalent of jeans and a T-shirt with a curved sword as the only weapon, seems more like an outsiders idea of a Redguard warband than an actual group of Hammerfell mercenaries Then there's Saadia, if she was a pampered Thalmor colaborator why does she have a massive scar on her face, seems odd, its less odd if she'd been anti-Dominion in Thalmor occupied Taneth or actively involved in some sort of resistance, also why stop in Skyrim, she's got money she could of easily put more distance and carried on to Morrowind or Argonia or gone south to the more cosmopolitan lands of Cyrodil and disapeared in the far larger and more mixed population of the Empires Heartland. Finally theres something I realised recently, he Whiterun Guards throwing the Alik'r out, why? They breached the peace, seriously with the shit you pull as Dragonborn what could they of done to get barred from town, also doesnt explain why didn't they approach Yarl Baalgruf in the first place, he's no freind of the Thalmor, Im sure he'd be very intrested in a potential Dominion spy within his walls, removal of a potential threat seems an easy pitch to the Yarl to me. My best guess, as both Ireleth and Baalgruf were in the Legion prior to becoming his Yarl and given the timing they likely fought in the great war, Saadia came to Whiterun on purpose knowing there were freinds there, add that to Baalgruf sneaking off to the Bannered Mare and his Guards kicking the Alik'r out of the 1 town their quarry was in I'm guessing she came her for and is receiving the Yarls protection and while I don't believe either sides story, given Balgruuf's anti-Thalmor attitude I'll take Saadia's side on a little faith here.
If you know your Redguard lore, it starts making sense: it's ANOTHER Crown VS Forebear squabble. If Kematu is a Crown freedom-fighter, and Saadia's a Forebear, then that explains their mutual animosity. And you can even explain why Saadia's story makes no historical sense if she's a High Rock expat who moved to Hammerfell post-Second Treaty: she'd naturally fall in with the Forebears (who side with the Empire, same as High Rock nobility usually does) and would not have known the LONG history of animosity between Redguards and elves or the Crown VS Forebear civil wars, especially if she's from, say, Daggerfall (where Queen Akorithi married Gothryd as part of a Daggerfall-Sentinel political alliance, and where the Direnni Altmer clan is prominent in the noble bloodlines). And Kematu taking orders from the Crowns make the Thalmor accusation make an odd amount of sense: Saadia would be seen as a traitor and accused of being a thalmor spy eventually just for not being racist toward elves, especially if the High Rock expat theory is taken into account, and the word of a prince or king and the gold are enough for any nationalistic self-styled freedom fighter. Kematu being a Crown would also explain why he's not considering approaching Balgruuf, even if the Jarl is neutral in the Empire-Stormcloak conflict: the Redguards notoriously hate the peacekeepers and moderate politicians and see them as fence sitters, there was like ONE independent ruler in Hammerfell who got the Crowns and Forebears to get along, and he was backed by the Empire so they overthrew him for being a puppet, legitimate or not.
Somehow after the quest, Kematu and his boys stayed in the swindlers’ den and don’t seem to ever leave. Even for later radiant quests, like the redguard guy’s family sword and the silverhand schemes, Kematu remained in the last room of the cave despite the previous bandits refreshing. (The bandits even became silverhands with the companion radiant quest, but Kematu is still there) Is this a bug or something?
I usually side with Saadia because I hate how when the quest ends, the Alik'r just perpetually loiter around the Whiterun gates otherwise. With nothing but default dialogue. At least Saadia adds something to being part of the Bannered Mare haha
@@d.w952 Your logic for why you choose to side with a traitor of their nation is astoundingly sad. But then again, what did I expect from someone with DW as their pfp 🤷
On the whole "Saadia's Burial Urn" thing... couldn't Hulda and Whiterun just presume her dead and decide to take her belongings into the Hall of the Dead as a way to honour her? Considering the time frame and the distance from Whiterun to Hammerfell... idk, that just makes far more sense to me more than anything. I doubt Hammerfell cares enough about a traitor to send her remains anywhere other than the nearest ditch they can find.
9:09 oh god.. but on a serious note, loved the video, even got some insightful info on people saying "i dont know" when they are pressed, actually good advice irl
I’m 100% sure Kematu is being truthful . They aren’t allowed in Whiterun bc of the Hammerfells relationship with the empire and thalmor . As for Saadia she’s in hiding because when she sold out the city too the Thalmor , they ofcourse lost the war and were pushed back . So I can see a situation where maybe the Thalmor are sadistic enough too not care about a Redgaurd spy . She’s just a loose end they don’t need anymore .
There is another discrepancy in Kematu's story. the treaty between Hammerfell and the Dominion was sign in 4E 180. Skyrim begins 20 years after that in the Fourth Era 201. I might be wrong but Saadia looks too young to have betrayed Kaneth during the war. She also has a scar on her cheek. How did she get the scar? Could be that she was forced to aid the dominion. Additionally, why would a Dominion asset be hiding in Whiterun as a barmaid. Wouldn't the dominion put her in an area that was more favorable to the Dominion? Finally, I think the Alikir snuck into whiterun and got caught which is why one of them is in Jail. Why didn't they go through the proper channels? Kematu also accuses Saadia of offering sex for the PC's helpwhen she never even tried to seduce the PC. Kematu is not a benevolent Bounty Hunter.
Maybe an intel gathering operation to see what tidbits of info slip out of a drunk guard or officials mouth to pass on for investigation by other assets.
Just with the way Skyrim faces are I think that she just looks like that. Delphine is 51ish and she looks like that, Ulfric is also in his 50s. She could’ve been say in her 20s and more she’s in her late 40s
@@babygurleatsshickennuggits4201 I like that thought but I still need more info. I blame the writers for flushing out the story better. Did she open a drawbridge? Did she seduce and kill a king? nothing specific.
"why would a Dominion asset be hiding in Whiterun as a barmaid" because Thalmor don't really care about collaborators? Look what happen to those Vietnam/Afghan collaborators with America
Good you’re not using appearance mods. One video I watched on this subject claimed that Saadia looked too young to have been a part of the Great War, while using appearance mods that made look 20 years younger.
What if Saadia and Kematu were once a couple? Saadia seeing Kematu be an absolute crazy ass and had to escape him, especially if he is an influencial figure in Hammerfell. I think the quest rewards are very underwhelming, imagine if Saadia was a potential spouse (not like the simps didn't choose her anyways, I did the first time lol) and have Kematu's reward be Alik'r gear that is enchanted or something 🤷🏻
don't forget that saadia acted surprised that the alikir were there. Just to tell you afterwards that one already got caught sneaking in. Means she lied from the get go. Also note that she said that they'd pay off the guards. Nothing she says is consistent with what we see in game and in lore.
This is the best thing I've read on here 😂😂😂 This was me on my very first playthrough. I went to the bandit cave to take em all out (like the hero I thought I was), then I saw them all standing there, scimitars ready, looking like they're ready whip ass... Changed my tune immediately 😂😂😂
I use to pick Kematu on Xbox 360 and Playstation 4, but now that I have computer with the likes of Flower Girls and Amorous Adventures PLUS mods, I side with Saadia
Definatly, Saadia! Kematu is used as a clueless Puppet, by some intrigued, powerhungry Hammerfell Nobles-Houses Wars. That is how i see it - as soon as other Fractions and Oppositions, start secret Mission, on foreign grounds, you DIE in CHAOS and INSTABILITY! So, get rid of the Aikrs 😉
@@LoopyDreamz775 Hammerfell: no thalmor Skyrim:Lots of thalmor, so why Saadia still hide in Skyrim from Thalmor?🤔 "Also she’s incredible especially with mods" And this part is just pathetic.
I choose kematu cus he actually made a lot of sense and after i killed the bandits he actually tried to deescalate the situation saying no one else has to die which was super unique
From an acquisitionist perspective, (morality aside, in pursuit of the greater reward) i side with saadia b e c a u s e the al'kir will permanently stand guard at the front gates, helping protect the town from vampire raids killing off weaker (but likeable) npcs... i also hold off on talking to the ebony warrior for the same reason... those vampire raids happen when least expected and can often go unnoticed... i sometimes tell followers to wait there too if i remember... but anyways, before the quest began, she gave me a book, (because i acquired friendly status for selling firewood) which was nice of her... despite that not being a consistent linear consideration, i always found it odd there were so many people involved in this bounty hunt, because it would be more efficient to leave the job up to one person, capable of blending in where necessary, given that the money for her capture was supposedly not an issue (which ends up happening, they rely on you, but that should have been their initial choice; even astrid can manage to kidnap the dragonborn)... with so many soldiers exhausting their efforts for one person, focusing on justice when the aldmeri dominion is still active, even in the same region, it really makes me wonder if the al'kir are even anything like what they used to be, since time could change everything... for example, the possible dissolution of the ebonheart pact made evident by windhelm and the stormcloak rebellion spread throughout skyrim... its possible that there could exist many more defectors (if saadia could be one, there could be many more) and these defectors aligned with the aldmeri dominion or at the very least, assumed the guise of a noble cause for a more sinister motive... apart from trial, (which execution is obiously the only punishment for high treason and should not matter that she is killed because that would be justified) the only other reason i could think of that someone would want her captured is to sacrifice her, particularly for her significance as a member of a house with high status... a house in power could have gained their position through exceptional means; special in terms of magicka properties, something that would be especially important to the aldmeri dominion... its still speculative and i believe your reasoning is more probable, but there is still reasonable doubt, mainly concerning the possibility that groups can lose integrity throughout history or even after a short while, especially after the main cause for their assembly has been taken care of, which was to route the enemy from their lands... i could see the aldmeri dominion using the al'kir (through whatever form of manipulation, necromantic puppetry, etc.) to systematically take down the noble houses in an effort to weaken hammerfell... its not likely that masters of manipulation like the aldmeri dominion would give up on taking over hammerfell forever...
i always side with saadia, not that i think kematu is lying but the ones who hired him are in my eyes looking for a scapegoat. and as thane of whiterun all citizens should be under your protection. it would be different for me if they had proof, i dont believe in guilty till proven innocent
He had me at "Don't allow yourself be fooled by a pretty face". lol Too true though, but really end of the day..like you said he was likely more truthful in general and she DID sell out a entire city of other people. Upon that one would make a fair enough choice. Never knew or gave attention to her ashes showing back up in Whiterun though, maybe Kematu didn't have higher level Alteration magic skill. Woke up halfway to Hammerfell and fell off the horse, "justice" was served in any regard I guess.
Tricking Saadia to go to the barn and then betraying the man who's going to capture her results in a different set of dialogue from her. But you must betray him before he pays you or she will be hostile to you after you save her.
Saaida being in a burial urn makes me think she was taken and a fake was given to whiterun so they wouldn't question what happened to her, just some managled corpse beyond recognition.
I just finished this mission yesterday, I was trying to go deeper into the matter as the game doesn't provide much information about if they are lying or not and I got to the point of "agreeing" to help Kematu but there was no option to confront her about her possible lie. When I realize I had to trick her into an ambush I just couldn't. I thought she may have done awfull things that I'm not aware of and is just trying to survive while the mercenaries were paid to track her down and maybe kill her, this guys kill for money and are ready to die for that money so I said I may as well kill them.
TBF to Saadia being dead, I believe its just a gameplay mechanic, as her body has to go somewhere, and since it goes to the dead person cell in game, it needs to have an urn so you can loot some stuff from her
I hate that argument. The game presents us with a certain reality - we either accept it, or we question some aspect of it. Which aspect you question would be a matter of personal bias. I go with the full "reality", and that says that both are blatantly lying.
@@Wolf-ln1ml That assumption is wrong, but the UESP is also wrong about the urn appearing at the end of the quest and it's caused a massive mandela effect of misinformation. The CK says Saadia is disabled at the end of the quest. you can PRID her refID and enable her again (she'll be aggro) to confirm she isn't killed at all. Checked that on my Oldrim install on my potato laptop, Saadia's disabled and can be re-enabled, her urn isn't in the Hall. I tested it more thoroughly on PS3 (which means absolutely no mods, and reliable scripts firing unlike on PC since the FPS is constant in this) on three separate attempts (an old save where I did Kematu's side 5 in-game years prior, and a fresh save taken right after the Alik'r accost you at Whiterun's entrance, ran twice, once siding with Kematu and once siding with Saadia then flipping to Kematu when he forcegreets you and scolds you for being taken in by a pretty face). The only time Saadia's url shows in the Hall is if she's killed. Tested that her urn wasn't bugged and shows up on death by killing her mid-quest (it was kind of an accident of the dragon attack variety when I was supposed to escort her to the stables). Both my "it's been 5 years" save and my two recent tests did NOT produce the URN, and I waited 30 days all the way over in Solstheim to be absolutely sure anything that should happen happened and everything refreshed.
Something that was overlooked was the timing of the Great War in Elder Scrolls lore. It officially happened thirty years before the events of Skyrim. That means that if she was a noble if Saadia spoke out against the Dominion during those ten years of war that Hammerfell experienced, she'd likely be in her 50s (I point this out because Kematu gave advice to the player character to not fall for a pretty face and as far as I know, Redguards have the same approximately 80 years of life expectancy as the other human races). I think it's much more likely that one of her parents fought in one of those wars, died from medical complications due to an injury suffered during the fighting a decade later, and when Saadia tried to claim her inheritance, a cousin of hers who was secretly for the Dominion tried to usurp her, gaining enough support that she ended up fleeing to Skyrim. That's why I think that Kematu is working for this theoretical cousin, possibly one of their heirs, and is working towards splitting Hammerfell the same way Ulfric Stormcloak has split Skyrim. I just think this since, as mentioned, when the player sides with Kematu, Saadia shows up dead in the crypts, and the fact that Elder Scrolls 6 will be set in Hammerfell, and this would set up all kinds of awesome opportunities for that player character to have adventures sorting out issues, possibly even another civil war storyline. (I know, this might be retconning to make Skyrim's story fit with the game that follows it, but it's their story, so they have control.)
Saadia might have been killed in an attempt to escape from Kematu after you help captured her. I have sided with each one of them to see what would happen.
I always presumed that when Saadia disappeared the people of Whiterun thought she was kidnapped or killed and that's why we find her "burial urn". Kind of like empty coffins for people that went missing.
I used to always side with Kematu but then I had a playthrough where the Dawnguard vampires killed a lot of NPCs in Whiterun, which made my favorite city almost a ghost town. So now I try to keep as many NPCs alive as I can so now I side with her.
Redguards are not banned from skyrim. The Alikr are, because, they are almost attacking any redguard woman they run into (random encounters, and being banned from whiterun). One of his Alikr is imprisoned for reasons they don't make quit clear, other than getting caught. Take away any lore you might know, we only have each of their words as evidence. Saadia works peacefully in an inn, Kematu works out of a bandit camp, even though one of his Alikr is living at the Rorikstead inn. You can claim that there is not enough room, or too expensive to house the whole group. But why do they not kill all the bandits there, instead of paying for housing? Why not pay an inn instead of bandits? When you talk with Kematu, and accuse him of being an assassin, he says "nothing so crass". Which means he is, just doesn't like the title. With the little amount of evidence given, and no other way to complete the quest, as a "good character" playthrough, I side with Saadia. Evil/greedy character, I side with Kematu. That argument he gives about a pretty face, doesn't work unless you have mods installed, just FYI.
Kematu for the very simple reason that the Redguards are STILL at war with the Thalmor. She would only be running from them if she either a.) betrayed her own people to the Dominion, or b.) failed to betray her own people so the Dominion is after her. The Alik'r may be mercenaries, but it's safe to say that they aren't throwing their lot in with the Dominion when Redguard law is pretty fucking direct in "you die for betrayal" being their go to.
My DB likes taking matters into her own hands. Wait for Kematu to paralyze Saadia and then end him after collecting the reward, then use Calm on Saadia to get her reward. Then I remind her that if I hear so much as a single "Never should have come here" when I enter the Bannered Mare, I won't hesitate to trap her in one of my soul gems.
One thing. Both these people are good at deceiving, so there's no way to get a handle on the truth just by conversational context alone. That said, if what Kematu said about Saadia being an Aldmeri sellout is true, then why aren't the Thalmor involved in her wellbeing? Also, if what Kematu said about Saadia being returned alive is true, then, why are a group of assassins being charged with the task? That makes even less sense. Saadia only tells the partial truth, Kematu is telling mostly lies. I side with Saadia ultimately because her story about being in fear for her life and the reasons why are consistent, but Kematu says one thing, does another. Yeah, makes sense if you're a damned politician. ... Paralysis spell. Can people even breathe when struck with it? Something to consider; Saadia might of perished before returning to Hammerfell, just because of negligence. Or was killed. I don't trust Kematu.
I believe both are lying, but I side with Saadia. Like you said, they ultimately kill her and bring her remains to Skyrim. If the nobles of Hammerfell did hire the Alikir, they would want to keep Saadia’s remains in Hammerfell to set as an example to ward off future betrayals.
Actually, this is merely an in-game trick. See, the only way to get rid of an NPC the non-dead way is that the body disappears, and something is left behind, literally anything that registers as that NPC. And this is a 12-year-old game, after all.
@@SrChr778 That’s a reach considering most NPCs just go in a coffin with their name on it. While Saadia got a unique urn. The developers went out of their way for this. This is more than just a game mechanic.
I sided with Saadia the first time I did the quest, and I will always side with her. It’s a shame they *didn’t* make her a marriage option, would have love to had that option after the quest.
Actually that was my conclusion to : Kematu was truthful and the ashes are a Bathesda oversite. I alway turn Sadia in. It never really sat right that she was on the hook for speaking out when Hammerfell was resisting the Altmer successfully
Kematu lackies have connections to the dark brotherhood not to mention his real intentions are out of unforgiving resentment over the fact she is a royal, she in the other hand already left everything behind for her crimes that she "committed".
I side with Kematu. One interesting bit I discovered once is if you bring Saadia out to Kematu and kill her in front of him, Kematu will say "All that effort and you just kill her? You've ruined everything!" If Kematu really was going to kill Saadia even after the player leaves, why would be so angry with the player?
I’m disappointed that i forgot about that, but yeah it further proves that Kematu is in the right
I disagree, anyone that hires bandits and hides in a cave with them is clearly not a good guy. No one can explain that.
I find Saadia's story only a little suspicious but she's not rude and arrogant like most nobles would be when you first meet her, also if you think about the fact that many of Hammerfell's nobles may have ended up corrupt and secretly was siding with the Thalmor, then Saadia could have been ratting them out to the military, then that can clearly explains why assasins would be sent after her, because those nobles could just be trying to get in good with the Thalmor. It makes sense if you think it that way.
@@futuregenesis97you forget one really important thing about Redgurds. They are extremely racist to elves! Would an entire group of elven racist work with there bigget enemies? On top of that, would the High Elves stup down to work with people they view as below them? Look at how they treat the races that they are allied with.
@@futuregenesis97"She's not rude and arrogant when you meet her" She threatens to slit your throat?
@@futuregenesis97simp
I always assumed that the reason her urn shows up is more a memorial that she went missing without a trace sort of thing
Probably a bug because she was considered to be a citizen.
Could also be intentional, but why would they send her remains to whiterun?
11:05 In Kematu’s defense, whether he’s lying, telling half truths or telling the whole truth, either way his operation *is* illegal, and Hammerfell isn’t on great terms with the Empire either, so he risks losing his men in a skirmish if they came across an Imperial patrol as well as a Stormcloak war band. Hiding out with outlaws and sending out small parties to scout for intel was the best he had to work with. He’s clearly very experienced/seasoned as a warrior
Jup, he is basically a foreign agent, moving in to capture a wanted person, acting without consent of the local government.
I have no idea how the political situation between Hammerfell and the Empire is, but Hammerfell is most likely independent at that point in time. So the proper way would be for Hammerfell to inform authorities in the Empire and/or Skyrim (depending on how the Hammerfell government sees the civil war) to capture and extradite her.
@@HappyBeezerStudios That is in fact literally what he is lol; and yes at this time Hammerfell is I believe fully independent from the Empire. And with both the civil war and dragon threat ongoing, the cities are closed to them, making any appeal to any local authority next to impossible, especially after being caught sneaking into Whiterun. So I don’t blame them at all for operating as outlaws; I’d do the same in their position.
I always betray Saadia because I'm a TES-Lorebeard and I have a fundamental primal fear of women.
So afraid of women that I’d rather send them to another country.
I usually side with Saadia, because I am not a TES-Lorebeard, and I think she has a more pleasant voice. But they're both good choices if you ask me. @@masterneloth
So you're a TES lorebeard, but you don't care about the TES lore that says that Kematu's story makes _zero_ sense if you look at the timeline (unless you assume that a 50-60 year old Saadia would be considered a "pretty face")?
@@Wolf-ln1ml 50-60yo women can be pretty.
@@Wolf-ln1mlwe are in at Most her mid 40s.
This isnt that old.
And Kematus Story makes sens while Saadias dosent make any.
Saadia fleed from the Thalmor from Hammerfell to Skyrim
Hammerfell is a refuge for peopel fleeing from the Dominion
Skyrim has Thalmor Justicars running around the Place
So I heard a theory that Saadia is the guilty one. This is because she claims she got in trouble for speaking out against the Thalmor. However she’s from hammerfell who gained their independence from the Thalmor. So even though I dispise the alliker, I think saadias more likely to be guilty.
I agree. Hammferfell is still fighting against the Thalmor.
defuck is an alliker
I used to side with Saadia, but now side with Kematu for this reason.
Guilty or not she's in Skyrim outside Hammerfell's jurisdiction meaning it up to the Nords to tack her down and decide whether or not to hand her over to Hammerfell
@@marcnolan2409I played a Nord so...she got sended back do hammerfell or killed by my hammer
I usually kill Kematu because that cave alone has over a dozen bodies for my werewolf character to eat
The cave is full of curved swords.
Curved!
Swords!
W
Based
I think I saw that the urn thing might just be a game mechanic thing. The games default for when a character leaves the game is to put them in their holds cemetery
I hate that argument. The game presents us with a certain reality - we either accept it, or we question some aspect of it. _Which_ aspect you question would be a matter of personal bias. I go with the full "reality", and that says that both are blatantly lying.
Personally, I'm convinced it's simply a wannabe "moral dilemma" quest that's so badly written that it actually makes zero sense. Which would match the overall quality of story writing coming from Bethesda since Skyrim...
@Wolf-ln1ml the game very clearly has mechanics that arent meant to be taken as reality. No one reads a spell book once and can suddenly cast a spell perfectly. Horses cant climb vertically like spiders, etc. Taking the urn with a grain of salt because of the game mechanics is perfectly valid, especially considering it'd make ZERO sense for them to off Sadia and then ship her *back* to whiterun for burial. Like, for what? That's not where she or her family is from.
But yeah, in agreement for the writing. Bethesda seems far too comfortable half-doing everything, and comparing their relatively new games and new games from some others (like baldurs gate 3) puts a glaring spot light on that.
@@Kuhboose1 Skyrim is full of bugs and oversights, Saadia being one of them is 100% believable. Like for example, Nazeem has a key to a house that doesn't exist. My guess is that they never put in a code to remove her remains from whiterun if the player sides with kematu.
Well said👍
@@Wolf-ln1ml kid in Skyrim will hire thug to kill you, are you going to make some conspiracy theories about that?
I keep Saadia alive because I like there being a waitress in the Bannered Mare
I think it’s an intresting detail. That the cave Kematu is hiding is literally called “Swindlers Den”
good point
@@lenora22
Or it’s named that because of the bandits…
I have a 4th hypothesis on Saadia's coffin. What if after the paralysis spell wore off, she tried to fight back and escape and was accidentally killed in the struggle? If Kematu had malicious intent, why would he bring her body back to Whiterun to be buried instead of just...throwing her in a ditch somewhere? If she was killed in accidental self defense he could go up to a guard like "Hey, this woman attacked me and I killed her defending myself, could you bury her here? It is where she lived", he'd have no reason to hide the body afterall
He could also take the remains to Hammerfell. If he is telling the truth, he was contracted to bring her back. If she dies, he has nothing to show. But if he brings her remains, he brings proof that she died. Which might be enough for the courts (or whatever) in Hammerfell to consider the thing over.
I think the most interesting possibility is that the people of Whiterun put up an empty burial urn because to them Saadia just disappeared. They may have thought she just lost her life to bandits or something
I always go with Kenchadu, Saadia just annoys me with her existence, and I savor the moment when she knows she's been betrayed.
Kenchadu sounds like Kematu’s older cooler brother and I love it
Incel
@@email1568oh c’mon! It’s a good moment!
@@email1568simp
@@email1568 cry more simp
I absolutely love this quest and I’m glad to see it still getting debated over a decade later. When I first found it I agonized over who to trust, and I still wrestle with it on pretty much every playthrough. But I disagree that Kematu is necessarily better, or that there even is a “right” choice here - cue wall of text.
First off, I agree that Saadia’s story is absolutely swiss cheese. It makes no sense for Hammerfell to persecute Thalmor protestors, or for Saadia to hide in Thalmor-patrolled Skyrim, or for Saadia to even be as old as her claims would make her. Granted on all points, she’s totally lying.
But Kematu’s story is also sketchy. Why not pursue Saadia through official channels? Skyrim and Hammerfell are longstanding allies, and Jarl Ballin is neutral in the rebellion - the Thalmor can’t really boss him around. We’d expect Hammerfell to just request extradition for a traitor hiding in Whiterun - at least as a formality, before sending their elite honor guard to carry out an illegal kidnapping in a foreign country! On top of this, there’s no evidence whatsoever to back up Kematu’s identity or claims. He doesn’t offer any arrest warrants or proof of ID. His crew is hiding in a bandit den and wandering around accosting random Redguard women. For a state-sanctioned assassin squad, don’t they seem a bit underfunded? And even if you kill Kematu and his pals, there’s nothing to back up his story on any of their bodies or in their lair. No official orders, no journals, nothing. For me this is the nail in the coffin. In a game so reliant on textual exposition for its quests, the lack of any clear evidence at the end suggests to me that Bethesda intentionally kept this one ambiguous. Kind of like the Civil War, there are compelling reasons why both sides suck.
So, to recap: Saadia’s story holds no water, and Kematu’s mostly makes sense but is missing literally any proof at all. Fine, except Kematu is the instigator here. Saadia was just chilling in the Bannered Mare until his crew showed up ready to stuff her in a bag, so the burden of proof is kind of on him. My personal suspicion? Both sides are full of it and just tell you what you want to hear - they spin a yarn that paints the other guy as a Thalmor lover and hope you bite. Maybe it’s a house rivalry back in Hammerfell, or a gang that had a falling-out, or hell, a soured romance between Saadia and Kematu. I don’t know. What I do know is that my characters usually feel a responsibility to Skyrim and her citizens first and foremost. So in the absence of substantial evidence either way, I usually side with Saadia, who - regardless of her past - has been nothing but an upstanding citizen since I got here and seems only to want to be left alone. By contrast, Kematu’s squad, even if they’re right about her, is walking around harassing innocent women and funding bandit factions in MY country. I generally find it more palatable to tack a few bodies onto the end of clearing a bandit hideout than to coldly lure a person who’s chosen to trust me to their paralysis and abduction on zero real evidence. Plus, in Kematu’s own words, she’s a pretty face :)
You're forgetting that Hammerfell has traditionally been stuck in a constant low-to-high-level civil war, between the Crowns (who want to make the early Ra-Gada warlords the succession of the old Yokudan monarchy, and WILL insist they're the government even if they're not the ones ruling at the moment-- it's a very antipope situation), Forebears (who want a new, non-monarchic government system), and some intermediate compromise-seekers who tend to not have much success reunifying either side.
We literally can see that divide in Redguard on Stros M'Kai, albeit slanting to the Crown faction's side as Cyrus finds their anti-Imperial-occupation freedom fighters useful allies against an Imperial governor who makes House Hlaalu look collectively morally pristine.
It's sketchy, but that sketchiness matches what we know of Crown-supporting Stros M'Kai resistance groups the way Redguard portrays them. And it would match Saadia being a _Forebear supporter_ , the ones who support the Empire usually-- and in this case, who'd be seen as a Thalmor supporter.
Kematu being a Crown freedom-fighter, with "officially sanctioned" being possibly in air quotes depending on if Hammerfell is currently led by a Forebear or a Crown, and Saadia being a Forebear who supported the Empire, is the scenario that holds the most water.
Saadia's guilty of SOMETHING, but whether it is that she's part of an Imperial Guild (or a less official Iliac Bay coalition of loose guilds that produces a lot of locksmiths and bankers and accountants...) that got caught in the "all Empire sympathizers are Thalmor spies!!!!" fanaticism, or she's genuinely sold Crown intelligence to the Thalmor is the part that's actually in the air.
For all we know she's just part of an Iliac Bay thieves' guild and a Forebear and that's enough for Crown nationalists, and it would also explain why she's not going "I'm a spy, yes, but for the thieves' guild, my job is fleecing nobles" or otherwise declaring her illegal activities. (Or just as likely, she could be a spy alright, but for a High Rock kingdom and not for Thalmor in Hammerfell -- Daggerfall did hint that Forebears can and do scheme with High Rock nobles to gain power in the Iliac Bay, see Gothryd of Daggerfall wedding Akorithi, and Queen Aubh-Ki of Sentinel getting influence in Daggerfall for that arrangement.)
A wall of text means Saadia sympathizer because that's how simps cope
@@Fakeslimshady Saadia sympathizer are just pathetic simps
Fuck off with ur essay kid
@@FakeslimshadyI usually side with kematu but he makes some very valid points about Saadia even without the simping.
I'm firmly in the "Both of these people are lying" camp when it comes to this quest, but I really wish the ambiguity had been taken even further by being able to call them out on the inconsistencies in their stories.
While I understand that it's an advantage for new players, it's so disappointing (and immersion-breaking) that the DB acts like they're fresh off the boat from Akavir and knows literally nothing about Tamriel, no matter their background. There's absolutely no way my Redguard DB who literally had to flee Hammerfell for being an elven supremacist Thalmor sympathizer (she's weird like that) would take Saadia's story at face value even though it's the complete opposite of what she herself experienced.
It'd be fun if Saadia and Kematu adjusted their claims slightly depending on the Dragonborn's race or quest decision, maybe playing up the Thalmor angle for a Stormcloak DB or dropping it entirely for an Altmer DB. That way, it would be even harder to pick a side and you could really roleplay your decision depending on who that particular character would be more likely to sympathize with.
Late af but man that'd be pretty neat. But Bethesada likely wouldn't go that deep unfortunately not in their current state. I mean way I heard seems they won't even put TES6 out until after Fallout 5 like what?
What holes/inconsistencies are there in Kamatu's story? He said she sold out a city to the Thalmor, Hammerfell ultimately won the war and are now looking for justice. Sounds pretty solid to me.
Saadia's story makes no sense whatsoever. She's fled a place where the Thalmor have been thoroughly ousted to a place where the Thalmor have significant influence because she spoke out against the Thalmor? Either she's too dumb to let live or she's a lier, either way the choice is pretty simple, unless you think she's a lier and are also a Thalmor sympathizer in which case wouldn't you side with her?
@@jakeand9020 perhaps this will help? have you ever thought that maybe both of them were telling the truth but projecting a story in their own way?
for example: saadia says she's being chased by the Alikir, and she has no idea why but to assume that they were employed by the thalmor, which makes sense since she spoke out against them.
and Kematus point was that Saadia sold her nation to the Thalmor and were it not for her betrayal, they would of held their ground against the thalmor.
Kematus dialogs also includes that it isn't him personally whose trying to bring her back, but the house of nobles who employed the Alikir assassin's to bring her back alive.
i concluded that the way the story happened went like this:
Saadia Spoke out against the thalmor, in front of the house of nobles, the house of nobles were against the idea of someone being openly hostile against the thalmor, and this perhaps gave an excuse for the Thalmor to invade Hammerfell, so they blamed Saadia for antagonization, and tasked the alikir to bring her back and publically execute her in front of the Thalmor embassies for good show of faith.
which is also why kematu was upset when you killed her in front of him.
I don't think either of them were lying to you.
this is most likely a common misunderstanding open to make the player choose.
cause in a way, even if you knew the full story, there's no right and wrong here, you can either fulfil kematus goal bringing her back to the nobles and potentially resolve a political dispute, or you can save saadia and help her start over.
also "She's fled a place where the Thalmor have been thoroughly ousted to a place where the Thalmor have significant influence because she spoke out against the Thalmor?"
If you look at the map, she only had three places to run to, Cyrodil, high rock or Skyrim, and given the travel expenses, if she really "sold" her people to the Thalmor, she would of gotten enough money to go further, or she would of taken shelter with the Thalmor. since she contributed, and would serve as proof for hammerfells rebellion. She wouldn't go to cyrodil or high rock because theyre more closer to Summerset isles, so her safest option is Skyrim since they are at war, and currently trying to keep the thalmor out of skyrim. the Imperials have more authority there than the Thalmor, and they only allow the Thalmor to act as enforcers to ensure the imperials do their job, and snuff out any talos worshippers. as they don't care for the war between the stormcloaks and Imperials.
Personally, I think both are lying - perhaps she ran from a bad marriage. Both have inconsistencies in their stories, plus I do not believe noble warriors would pay bandits to hang out in their cave when they could easily wipe them out (and when some of them are staying in the tavern in Rorikstead, so, like, they could just all do that, or split between there and Riverwood?)
why Kematu not make sense? Besides, the noble warriors are in a land that is very hostile to them, what's wrong with pay bandits and stay in their cave?
@@jianhaogao7608 Noble warriors (who very easily could simply kill the bandits that I, a single individual managed to kill on my way to them) would not sully themselves by paying bandits to let them stay in a cave, why would they? They adhere to a strict code of honour by all accounts, why would they pay criminals, regardless of being refused entry to a city?
@@starilvara first they are mercenary not noble warriors, second you are suggesting kill all the bandit and take their home, which sounds pretty bandit for me, third why Saadia have to lie if she is not a Thalmor dog,
I don't think either said is telling the whole truth. Because Hammerfell signed a seperate treaty with the dominion so saying the resistance is alive and well is false. But during the war she still could have betrayed them. I don't believe her myself but I also don't believe the assassins. But the way politics is in all those places it could be something way more complicated as they are next to High Rock and had their own border problems with Skyrim in the past as well. So all those noble families might just doing a little political intrigue using the dominon war as an excuse.
Well the Second Treaty of Stros M’Kai pushed the Dominion completely out of Hammerfell so the resistance against the Dominion IS alive and well. Especially after their 5 year war that they won.
but why would they need a Resistance? That's usually a movement within an occupied country (or maybe one with a bad government) - a Resistance movement against the Thalmor would make sense in Valenwood, Elsweyr, even Alinor, but not really in a country that's totally free from Thalmor rule/interference
@@starilvaraRed guards have a natural hatred for elves. So they are most likely supporting other seperatist groups outside of hammerfell. Also, the aldmeri dominion threat is still alive, as if the empire collapses, they might try another invasion of hammerfell. Also, she might have betrayed hammerfell in the great war, not the hammer fell-aldmeri dominion war.
@@starilvara It could be more of their little... Crown VS Forebear fighting thing they've had going since the First Era when they didn't agree on who should be leading Hammerfell. They do seem to love infighting over Yokudan tradition (which also usually tends to be the freedom fighters against external rulership) VS modernity (the side that usually aligns with the Empire when it comes to conflicts)
Basically this strikes me as a return to Hammerfell's status quo: one side is willing to abide by the second treaty of Stros M'Kai, the other is not fine with their freedom costing them whatever the Treaty demands of them in exchange for the Thalmor getting out.
@@neoqwerty I sadly suspect Bethesda forgot what exactly is supposed to be going on in Hammerfell at that exact time, just as they had completely contradictory accounts on the state of Morrowind.
i love that people are still making content discussing the obscure quests in this 12 year old game. i genuinely love skyrim so much.
Well, it's obvious that Saadia is guilty, unfortunately there are a lot of simps.
I'm about to end everyone's whole careers lol. You know how quests have you go across skyrim to find a sword in a bandit den or clear out a chief? Khematu is in a bandit lair and part of the bandit faction in code. It's bethesda style for you to do good deeds clearing dungeons. Khematu is a dungeon boss. The quest is titled "in my time of need" something a damsel in distress would say, not hammerfell police/bounty hunters. If you played elder scrolls long enough, it should be obvious khematu is meant to be killed just as any other final boss.
alright this just finalized my decision to kill him
Another possible explaination in-game for Saadia's death resulting in her burial in Whiterun: the Alik'ir were serious about bringing her to trial in Hammerfel, but not long after their departure, Saadia managed to escape. But the Alik'ir succesfully tracked her down again and, deciding she was too much of a flight risk, took it upon themselves to kill her so she would pay for her crimes. Even if was not ideal from their perspective, they still carried out their task. And because hauling a dead woman all the way back home was going to bring trouble, they had her burned and interred in Whiterun after obtaining proof of her capture.
What do they tell their contractor/employer? "Oh, sorry we killed her. No, we don't have any proof"
I side with the person paying me.
Respect
They're both paying you one is easy money other is a challenge if you're low leveled 😂😂
@@iam-v8498 see, there is where the egotistical murderhobo comes into play. You just let yourself get paid by both, then slaughter them and take the loot from both.
Kematu. Simply because, when you do your Elder Scrolls lore, you'd know that what Saadia tells you doesn't actually add up.
Now, any new player can get dupped simply because Saadia sounds sultry, and Kematu talks almost like a rude dude.
But the important thing to remember is that no matter the attitude of a person, it's the value of the information that counts.
I actually ended up murdering all the bandits and Alik’r before I even started the quest because I wanted to get a book for someone in Dawnstar
I don't know where you came from, but I'm glad you appeared on my recommendations. Good video lengths, amazing presentation skills, nicely researched as well. You'll likely be the next channel I leave on in the living room as background sound while I do whatever is needed for the day!
There's a 4th possibility about Saadia's urn in Whiterun. She might have attempted to escape and Kematu was forced to kill her so she wouldn't get away yet again.
His low profile with bandits makes perfect sense to me considering thalmor presence in skyrim but idk maybe im oversimplifying, its just sometimes the simple answer is the one
I always kill Kematu for the simple fact that he made me kill all the bandits just to get to him. Then he wants to talk after seeing the trail of bodies I left behind. Off with his head...
If the Thalmor wanted Saadia dead, all they'd have to do is accuse her of Talos worship and they could just take her there and then, and if the guards won't let them in because they don't want to oust Balgruuf as a Talos worshiper with his statue to Talos or that Heimskr spouting Talos proper gander, the Thalmor would just send a Bosmer or Khajiit assassin to do her in, and if the assassin gets captured or killed by the guards, so long as they killed Saadia, who cares, not them.
Ohh, found another cool Elder Scrolls storyteller! Subbed, always enjoy these quest and lore dives!
Like there may be a few reasons to see one as more credible than the other, but there isn't anything in game that give you a definitive answer.
Glad nothing like that happened ever happened in real life...
*laughs in American politics*
Dropped a like for dope content and that Redguard-less pun
I side with Saadia, always. She can be useful to me after the quest is completed. It's always nice to have eyes and ears inside the biggest tavern in the city, especially in a hold as large and centrally located as Whiterun. As a servant, she's also pretty much invisible to the patrons so they won't be as guarded when they see her moving around. Also, having saved her, if she's going to be loyal to ANYONE (not guaranteed, granted), it'll be to the person who bailed her out of a bind and allowed her to live without looking over her shoulder. She'd be less likely to betray you too, just in case the Alik'r send another group after her (she'd need an ally as powerful and influential as the Dragonborn). Kematu is useless, even when he's in Skyrim (and I play Redguards).
Soon as Saadia said the Alik'r were assassins from the Dominion i was like.. wait.. what?.. they are at war with each other.. not working together.. From that moment on and every other play through after that, she ended up at the stables, stiff as a board =P
Meanwhile I downloaded a mod that permantly paralyses the target without triggering hostilities and can't be dispelled without the accompanying cure paralysis spell and left her on a bed in one of the inns guest rooms for the guests to "enjoy" for the rest of the game.
@@Kakarot64. what the fuck
@@Kakarot64.
….Bro..
Maybe the Alikir was so nice they returned her body to where she’d made a few friends.
I usually side with Kematu, because even without all the historical background, his objective must be important to send him & his men all the way from Hammerfell. This is not a time when you can casually travel half way across the world.
And yet they have no papers from the Hammerfell government explaining their mission. Instead they let themselves get kicked out of the city and hunker down in a bandit cave halfway across the hold (with bandits still in it). They don't even have the funds to rent a room in Riverwood, which is much closer than the cave.
Not taking Saadia's side here. But isn't it a bis suspicious that Kematu's mission is important enough to send him all that distance at that time, but not give the necessary resources to make sure he finds and captures her?
I didn't know about the burial urn. The explanation that Hammerfell didn't give a crap and just threw her body in Whiterun again is hilarious and I can definitely see them doing that 😂
“And Ugh, poor people in riften” spoken like a true telvanni wizard 😂
Imperial ending: Save Saadia
Stormcloak ending: Save Kematu
Dark Brotherhood ending: Kill both, get double the money
Honestly, they are both lying, Saadia is probably the ex of Kematu, who is really just a gang boss. They both have invented the Thalmor BS story, to not actually look morre closely into their story. Saadia wants to leave her criminal past behind and Kematu wants Saadia silenced, because she knows too much. The Thalmor are just cover story and I don't believe the either has really anything to do with Thalmor, really...
Actually I realized recently that there may be another theory: Saadia is an imperial spy working undercover as an Thalmor symphatizer. I mean imperials work with Thalmor and that would explain she doesn't want to tell the whole story,. Kematu maybe had found out and maybe Kematu and his nationalis bunch are working with some nationalist movement in Hammerfell and/or has some antipathies against the Empire. I mean one of his men is already in jail and they act very rudely against the townguards.
But even presuming Kematu knows she is an imperial spy, he won't blow her cover, because taking her back as a Thalmor symphatizer makes it much more easier to do anything to her (including execution) than if people would find out that she is an imperial spy. Besides the scandal what it would cause to the Empire if Saadia's role as a possible imperial double agent with the civil war going on and Empire having one its weakest emperors. Saadia being an agent could also explain why she found an asylum in a city that is currently under imperial rule rather than Stormcloaks...
I looked up who was in the right because fighting him and his army was WAAAY too much for me.
Surprised how she didn’t have that much emotion after being betrayed by us.
Even if he was right, I still kinda feel bad. Still fooled by that pretty face, I suppose (or rather her having the appearance of a innocent innkeeper assistant, even if she pulled a knife on me).
I love you manage to cover old mysteries with a sense of humor and amazing narroration that I'm as interested as I was when skyrim first came out decades ago 😂
What I don’t get is why kematu and his goons were hiding out with a killer bandit group, but honestly I like siding with Saadia because she’s the only npc in the game that actually takes your order when you sit down
i think its more likely that the urn is there because someone put it there thinking she died, like the tavern lady. That is if that thing doesnt happen every time a whiterun npc dies
My dragonborn couldnt find any truth in between either, thus he took things based on actions.
Saadia:
- works hard in the Bannered Mare, contributing to Skyrim.
- has yet to commit crimes in Skyrim
Assasins:
- annoys women all over Skyrim
- hides out alongside BANDITS
- guards refuse to let them into the city
- untrustworthy
Clearly your Dragonborn also falls prey to Nord ignorance seeing as a very bluntly obvious pathological liar managed to convince you she's innocent.
Funny how he suggests that she exploited your sense of greed and then promises wealth if you do what he says. I just want the curved swords. Curved. Swords. Plus I don’t like telling lies, which is required if you side with Kematu.
I find it odd that a bunch of noble warriors whose society has a partictular disdain for magic so much so that there exists a strong stigma towards it would be so comfortable using the stuff, I know not all Redgaurds reject magic in fact Sword singers basically use magically tempered weapons but they despise the ''cowardly'' types of magic such as Necromancy illusions or traps etc.. still Its all common to see a redguard mage who uses destruction spells in wars so who knows, I still find it odd though that out of all the magic schools he uses a cowardly Alteration paralysis spell.
13:23 i wanna pose a 4th option! Perhaps when saadia “disappears” they give her an urn with the belongings she undoubtedly left in white run when she came with you to kematu. They assume she’s dead so they give her an urn to memorialize her, but with no remains to be found, it doesn’t contain any ashes
The thing is in the elder scrolls lore she states that she spoke against the aldmiri dominion however if you check the time she left from hammerfell the aldmiri dominion isnt in the region at all. This actually makes kematu's explanation actually make sense.
I usually kill Kematu because I have to get unique sword of Kematu from Royal Armory mod.
There's far too of a Thalmor presence in Skyrim for Kematu to be right. No way in hell the Thalmor would miss 40 odd Alik'r warriors traveling in one big group across Skyrim looking for one of their assets.
Sadia has to be the one telling the truth.
If Kematu was in Skyrim on official business, they would probably be allowed to stay at the inns as paying customers assuming they don’t cause trouble. Otherwise they could just make their own camp outside the city, or wherever they want. They wouldn’t put up with bandits in a secluded cave.
To me that says Kematu went rogue (assuming he ever had any official authority at all, but is abusing it), and probably doesn’t even want his superiors and/or the government of Hammerfell to know where he is or what he’s doing. So maybe Saadia has some damaging evidence against Kematu specifically. Could be a crime Kematu committed, corruption, etc but he doesn’t want it to get out.
That said, yeah why not just kill her (assuming the coffin is just a game mechanic)
Consider the political/wartime scenario that Tamriel is in though. Whether Kematu’s lying or not, his operation would be illegal anyway because it’s not official business; Hammerfell is ceded from the Empire and Whiterun Hold during Balgruuf’s rule is Imperial aligned, even though initially he’s not committed to the war effort. So if Kematu is indeed acting on Hammerfell’s behalf it’s not exactly damning or contradictory that he’s acting outside the law while operating within Skyrim
@@a.j.carter2294 besides, Thalmor are literally legal and can arrest anyone they want in Skyrim, why Thalmor agent will live with bandits.
What's the first thing Saadia does? Oh yeah, she tricks you asking for help into a room before pulling a knife on you, also Saadia says "they are willing to pay jarls and guards" and right after "there is one in the jail"... Like... Get some better lies...
I like having a unique cocktail servant when I’m in town, and she’s pretty. Otherwise she just vanished and nothing changes. Also I wanted some free curved swords.
You literally let an Elf-Nazi collaborator fled. Hope in real life you are not a simp.
I side with Kematu. The paralysis spell kinda looks cool and funny. That is the only reason.
12:45 - Yes, it does. He doesn't want to expose his lie right Infront of you. If you want to lie successfully, you keep the lie going.
Another possible reason of the coffin could be the aliki'r had to fake saadia death not to arouse suspicion for his disappearance in Whiterun
Why would they bother? It's not like Whiterun would send people to Hammerfell to get her back. So why would the Alikr care if her disappearance would be noticed?
There are some inconsistancies which always bugged me with the Alik'r, 1) their story seems off, they talk about the resistance to the Dominion in Hammerfell, but the wars over, the Dominion lost and was pushed out of Hammerfell so its a odd phrasing. 2) How did a single random noble woman hand a city over to the Thalmor, kill a bunch of guards and let them in a gate? Saadia has a knife but if she was that capable she wouldnt be asking The Dragonborn to dispose of Kematu and freinds, she could head off to Swindlers Den herself and do it. 3) for an elite band of mercenaries, they're pretty poorly equiped, no armor just the Redguard equivalent of jeans and a T-shirt with a curved sword as the only weapon, seems more like an outsiders idea of a Redguard warband than an actual group of Hammerfell mercenaries
Then there's Saadia, if she was a pampered Thalmor colaborator why does she have a massive scar on her face, seems odd, its less odd if she'd been anti-Dominion in Thalmor occupied Taneth or actively involved in some sort of resistance, also why stop in Skyrim, she's got money she could of easily put more distance and carried on to Morrowind or Argonia or gone south to the more cosmopolitan lands of Cyrodil and disapeared in the far larger and more mixed population of the Empires Heartland.
Finally theres something I realised recently, he Whiterun Guards throwing the Alik'r out, why? They breached the peace, seriously with the shit you pull as Dragonborn what could they of done to get barred from town, also doesnt explain why didn't they approach Yarl Baalgruf in the first place, he's no freind of the Thalmor, Im sure he'd be very intrested in a potential Dominion spy within his walls, removal of a potential threat seems an easy pitch to the Yarl to me.
My best guess, as both Ireleth and Baalgruf were in the Legion prior to becoming his Yarl and given the timing they likely fought in the great war, Saadia came to Whiterun on purpose knowing there were freinds there, add that to Baalgruf sneaking off to the Bannered Mare and his Guards kicking the Alik'r out of the 1 town their quarry was in I'm guessing she came her for and is receiving the Yarls protection and while I don't believe either sides story, given Balgruuf's anti-Thalmor attitude I'll take Saadia's side on a little faith here.
If you know your Redguard lore, it starts making sense: it's ANOTHER Crown VS Forebear squabble.
If Kematu is a Crown freedom-fighter, and Saadia's a Forebear, then that explains their mutual animosity. And you can even explain why Saadia's story makes no historical sense if she's a High Rock expat who moved to Hammerfell post-Second Treaty: she'd naturally fall in with the Forebears (who side with the Empire, same as High Rock nobility usually does) and would not have known the LONG history of animosity between Redguards and elves or the Crown VS Forebear civil wars, especially if she's from, say, Daggerfall (where Queen Akorithi married Gothryd as part of a Daggerfall-Sentinel political alliance, and where the Direnni Altmer clan is prominent in the noble bloodlines).
And Kematu taking orders from the Crowns make the Thalmor accusation make an odd amount of sense: Saadia would be seen as a traitor and accused of being a thalmor spy eventually just for not being racist toward elves, especially if the High Rock expat theory is taken into account, and the word of a prince or king and the gold are enough for any nationalistic self-styled freedom fighter.
Kematu being a Crown would also explain why he's not considering approaching Balgruuf, even if the Jarl is neutral in the Empire-Stormcloak conflict: the Redguards notoriously hate the peacekeepers and moderate politicians and see them as fence sitters, there was like ONE independent ruler in Hammerfell who got the Crowns and Forebears to get along, and he was backed by the Empire so they overthrew him for being a puppet, legitimate or not.
@neoqwerty That makes a Hell of a lot of sense, also explains why the Yarl of a major trade city in the neighbouring province would give her shelter
Pls make more of these videos..It’s making me want to replay Skyrim
I have another planned for November don’t you worry! ;)
@@masterneloth thank you..currently binging all ur vids. Love ur channel
Somehow after the quest, Kematu and his boys stayed in the swindlers’ den and don’t seem to ever leave. Even for later radiant quests, like the redguard guy’s family sword and the silverhand schemes, Kematu remained in the last room of the cave despite the previous bandits refreshing. (The bandits even became silverhands with the companion radiant quest, but Kematu is still there) Is this a bug or something?
I usually side with Saadia because I hate how when the quest ends, the Alik'r just perpetually loiter around the Whiterun gates otherwise. With nothing but default dialogue. At least Saadia adds something to being part of the Bannered Mare haha
Meh
@@CeeDoubleU best response I've ever had to a comment tbh
@@d.w952 Your logic for why you choose to side with a traitor of their nation is astoundingly sad. But then again, what did I expect from someone with DW as their pfp 🤷
@@CeeDoubleU imagine forgive a Thalmor collaborator for that poor reason
@@jianhaogao7608 No forgiveness
On the whole "Saadia's Burial Urn" thing... couldn't Hulda and Whiterun just presume her dead and decide to take her belongings into the Hall of the Dead as a way to honour her? Considering the time frame and the distance from Whiterun to Hammerfell... idk, that just makes far more sense to me more than anything. I doubt Hammerfell cares enough about a traitor to send her remains anywhere other than the nearest ditch they can find.
9:09 oh god..
but on a serious note, loved the video, even got some insightful info on people saying "i dont know" when they are pressed, actually good advice irl
I’m 100% sure Kematu is being truthful . They aren’t allowed in Whiterun bc of the Hammerfells relationship with the empire and thalmor . As for Saadia she’s in hiding because when she sold out the city too the Thalmor , they ofcourse lost the war and were pushed back . So I can see a situation where maybe the Thalmor are sadistic enough too not care about a Redgaurd spy . She’s just a loose end they don’t need anymore .
There is another discrepancy in Kematu's story. the treaty between Hammerfell and the Dominion was sign in 4E 180. Skyrim begins 20 years after that in the Fourth Era 201. I might be wrong but Saadia looks too young to have betrayed Kaneth during the war. She also has a scar on her cheek. How did she get the scar? Could be that she was forced to aid the dominion. Additionally, why would a Dominion asset be hiding in Whiterun as a barmaid. Wouldn't the dominion put her in an area that was more favorable to the Dominion? Finally, I think the Alikir snuck into whiterun and got caught which is why one of them is in Jail. Why didn't they go through the proper channels? Kematu also accuses Saadia of offering sex for the PC's helpwhen she never even tried to seduce the PC. Kematu is not a benevolent Bounty Hunter.
Maybe an intel gathering operation to see what tidbits of info slip out of a drunk guard or officials mouth to pass on for investigation by other assets.
Just with the way Skyrim faces are I think that she just looks like that. Delphine is 51ish and she looks like that, Ulfric is also in his 50s. She could’ve been say in her 20s and more she’s in her late 40s
@@babygurleatsshickennuggits4201 I like that thought but I still need more info. I blame the writers for flushing out the story better. Did she open a drawbridge? Did she seduce and kill a king? nothing specific.
"why would a Dominion asset be hiding in Whiterun as a barmaid" because Thalmor don't really care about collaborators? Look what happen to those Vietnam/Afghan collaborators with America
That ending is beautiful master neloth, thank you
I side with none. I get Kematu's money, then I kill him, use calm spell on Sadia and get her money as well.
Good you’re not using appearance mods. One video I watched on this subject claimed that Saadia looked too young to have been a part of the Great War, while using appearance mods that made look 20 years younger.
What if Saadia and Kematu were once a couple? Saadia seeing Kematu be an absolute crazy ass and had to escape him, especially if he is an influencial figure in Hammerfell.
I think the quest rewards are very underwhelming, imagine if Saadia was a potential spouse (not like the simps didn't choose her anyways, I did the first time lol) and have Kematu's reward be Alik'r gear that is enchanted or something 🤷🏻
Ah yes the age old choice, wife or blade?🤔
so why Saadia don't tell you truth 🤣😅🤣😅🤣😅
I just give both of them an express ticket to the Soul Cairn.
don't forget that saadia acted surprised that the alikir were there. Just to tell you afterwards that one already got caught sneaking in. Means she lied from the get go. Also note that she said that they'd pay off the guards. Nothing she says is consistent with what we see in game and in lore.
I sided with Kematu, because my character is so weak, there was no way I'd be able to kill him and all his men.
This is the best thing I've read on here 😂😂😂
This was me on my very first playthrough. I went to the bandit cave to take em all out (like the hero I thought I was), then I saw them all standing there, scimitars ready, looking like they're ready whip ass... Changed my tune immediately 😂😂😂
@@waltermosito1544 I'm going to go back and take them out when I get a little stronger.
Milk Drinker…
I use to pick Kematu on Xbox 360 and Playstation 4, but now that I have computer with the likes of Flower Girls and Amorous Adventures PLUS mods, I side with Saadia
Ofcourse you do, simp.
Definatly, Saadia!
Kematu is used as a clueless Puppet, by some intrigued, powerhungry Hammerfell Nobles-Houses Wars.
That is how i see it - as soon as other Fractions and Oppositions, start secret Mission, on foreign grounds, you DIE in CHAOS and INSTABILITY!
So, get rid of the Aikrs 😉
What's your evidence? Why Saadia lying if this is the case? Do you like Thalmor?
I know Kematu sounds the more believable of the 2 but i still go with Saadia because i have Amorous Adventure installed.. 😂
imagine forgive a Thalmor collaborator for this
@@jianhaogao7608
Alleged thalmor spy,
Also she’s incredible especially with mods 👀
@@LoopyDreamz775 Hammerfell: no thalmor Skyrim:Lots of thalmor, so why Saadia still hide in Skyrim from Thalmor?🤔 "Also she’s incredible especially with mods" And this part is just pathetic.
xDDD
I choose kematu cus he actually made a lot of sense and after i killed the bandits he actually tried to deescalate the situation saying no one else has to die which was super unique
From an acquisitionist perspective, (morality aside, in pursuit of the greater reward) i side with saadia b e c a u s e the al'kir will permanently stand guard at the front gates, helping protect the town from vampire raids killing off weaker (but likeable) npcs... i also hold off on talking to the ebony warrior for the same reason... those vampire raids happen when least expected and can often go unnoticed... i sometimes tell followers to wait there too if i remember... but anyways, before the quest began, she gave me a book, (because i acquired friendly status for selling firewood) which was nice of her... despite that not being a consistent linear consideration, i always found it odd there were so many people involved in this bounty hunt, because it would be more efficient to leave the job up to one person, capable of blending in where necessary, given that the money for her capture was supposedly not an issue (which ends up happening, they rely on you, but that should have been their initial choice; even astrid can manage to kidnap the dragonborn)... with so many soldiers exhausting their efforts for one person, focusing on justice when the aldmeri dominion is still active, even in the same region, it really makes me wonder if the al'kir are even anything like what they used to be, since time could change everything... for example, the possible dissolution of the ebonheart pact made evident by windhelm and the stormcloak rebellion spread throughout skyrim... its possible that there could exist many more defectors (if saadia could be one, there could be many more) and these defectors aligned with the aldmeri dominion or at the very least, assumed the guise of a noble cause for a more sinister motive... apart from trial, (which execution is obiously the only punishment for high treason and should not matter that she is killed because that would be justified) the only other reason i could think of that someone would want her captured is to sacrifice her, particularly for her significance as a member of a house with high status... a house in power could have gained their position through exceptional means; special in terms of magicka properties, something that would be especially important to the aldmeri dominion... its still speculative and i believe your reasoning is more probable, but there is still reasonable doubt, mainly concerning the possibility that groups can lose integrity throughout history or even after a short while, especially after the main cause for their assembly has been taken care of, which was to route the enemy from their lands... i could see the aldmeri dominion using the al'kir (through whatever form of manipulation, necromantic puppetry, etc.) to systematically take down the noble houses in an effort to weaken hammerfell... its not likely that masters of manipulation like the aldmeri dominion would give up on taking over hammerfell forever...
i always side with saadia, not that i think kematu is lying but the ones who hired him are in my eyes looking for a scapegoat.
and as thane of whiterun all citizens should be under your protection. it would be different for me if they had proof, i dont believe in guilty till proven innocent
He had me at "Don't allow yourself be fooled by a pretty face". lol
Too true though, but really end of the day..like you said he was likely more truthful in general and she DID sell out a entire city of other people. Upon that one would make a fair enough choice. Never knew or gave attention to her ashes showing back up in Whiterun though, maybe Kematu didn't have higher level Alteration magic skill. Woke up halfway to Hammerfell and fell off the horse, "justice" was served in any regard I guess.
Tricking Saadia to go to the barn and then betraying the man who's going to capture her results in a different set of dialogue from her.
But you must betray him before he pays you or she will be hostile to you after you save her.
Saaida being in a burial urn makes me think she was taken and a fake was given to whiterun so they wouldn't question what happened to her, just some managled corpse beyond recognition.
I just finished this mission yesterday, I was trying to go deeper into the matter as the game doesn't provide much information about if they are lying or not and I got to the point of "agreeing" to help Kematu but there was no option to confront her about her possible lie. When I realize I had to trick her into an ambush I just couldn't.
I thought she may have done awfull things that I'm not aware of and is just trying to survive while the mercenaries were paid to track her down and maybe kill her, this guys kill for money and are ready to die for that money so I said I may as well kill them.
I side with Dagoth Ur
I see you honor the sixth house and the tribe unmourned
Glad to see Dunmer Pride isn’t forgotten.
TBF to Saadia being dead, I believe its just a gameplay mechanic, as her body has to go somewhere, and since it goes to the dead person cell in game, it needs to have an urn so you can loot some stuff from her
I hate that argument. The game presents us with a certain reality - we either accept it, or we question some aspect of it. Which aspect you question would be a matter of personal bias. I go with the full "reality", and that says that both are blatantly lying.
Or she dissapeared and Whiterun rightfully assumed she died.
@@Wolf-ln1ml That assumption is wrong, but the UESP is also wrong about the urn appearing at the end of the quest and it's caused a massive mandela effect of misinformation.
The CK says Saadia is disabled at the end of the quest. you can PRID her refID and enable her again (she'll be aggro) to confirm she isn't killed at all. Checked that on my Oldrim install on my potato laptop, Saadia's disabled and can be re-enabled, her urn isn't in the Hall.
I tested it more thoroughly on PS3 (which means absolutely no mods, and reliable scripts firing unlike on PC since the FPS is constant in this) on three separate attempts (an old save where I did Kematu's side 5 in-game years prior, and a fresh save taken right after the Alik'r accost you at Whiterun's entrance, ran twice, once siding with Kematu and once siding with Saadia then flipping to Kematu when he forcegreets you and scolds you for being taken in by a pretty face).
The only time Saadia's url shows in the Hall is if she's killed. Tested that her urn wasn't bugged and shows up on death by killing her mid-quest (it was kind of an accident of the dragon attack variety when I was supposed to escort her to the stables). Both my "it's been 5 years" save and my two recent tests did NOT produce the URN, and I waited 30 days all the way over in Solstheim to be absolutely sure anything that should happen happened and everything refreshed.
Buying 10 fucking Attic rooms at the Sleeping Giant Inn 😂
Even during my first ever playthrough, I sided with Kematu.
Something that was overlooked was the timing of the Great War in Elder Scrolls lore. It officially happened thirty years before the events of Skyrim. That means that if she was a noble if Saadia spoke out against the Dominion during those ten years of war that Hammerfell experienced, she'd likely be in her 50s (I point this out because Kematu gave advice to the player character to not fall for a pretty face and as far as I know, Redguards have the same approximately 80 years of life expectancy as the other human races). I think it's much more likely that one of her parents fought in one of those wars, died from medical complications due to an injury suffered during the fighting a decade later, and when Saadia tried to claim her inheritance, a cousin of hers who was secretly for the Dominion tried to usurp her, gaining enough support that she ended up fleeing to Skyrim. That's why I think that Kematu is working for this theoretical cousin, possibly one of their heirs, and is working towards splitting Hammerfell the same way Ulfric Stormcloak has split Skyrim. I just think this since, as mentioned, when the player sides with Kematu, Saadia shows up dead in the crypts, and the fact that Elder Scrolls 6 will be set in Hammerfell, and this would set up all kinds of awesome opportunities for that player character to have adventures sorting out issues, possibly even another civil war storyline. (I know, this might be retconning to make Skyrim's story fit with the game that follows it, but it's their story, so they have control.)
Saadia might have been killed in an attempt to escape from Kematu after you help captured her. I have sided with each one of them to see what would happen.
I always presumed that when Saadia disappeared the people of Whiterun thought she was kidnapped or killed and that's why we find her "burial urn". Kind of like empty coffins for people that went missing.
“Redguardless” BOOOOO TOMATO TOMATO TOMATO
I used to always side with Kematu but then I had a playthrough where the Dawnguard vampires killed a lot of NPCs in Whiterun, which made my favorite city almost a ghost town. So now I try to keep as many NPCs alive as I can so now I side with her.
I side with Kematu. I don't trust Saadia. She is shady. And Kematu's story holds up better.
I side with Saadia because it’s just easier to kill Kamatu outside whiterun then do the rest of the quest.
Redguards are not banned from skyrim. The Alikr are, because, they are almost attacking any redguard woman they run into (random encounters, and being banned from whiterun). One of his Alikr is imprisoned for reasons they don't make quit clear, other than getting caught. Take away any lore you might know, we only have each of their words as evidence. Saadia works peacefully in an inn, Kematu works out of a bandit camp, even though one of his Alikr is living at the Rorikstead inn. You can claim that there is not enough room, or too expensive to house the whole group. But why do they not kill all the bandits there, instead of paying for housing? Why not pay an inn instead of bandits? When you talk with Kematu, and accuse him of being an assassin, he says "nothing so crass". Which means he is, just doesn't like the title. With the little amount of evidence given, and no other way to complete the quest, as a "good character" playthrough, I side with Saadia. Evil/greedy character, I side with Kematu. That argument he gives about a pretty face, doesn't work unless you have mods installed, just FYI.
Kematu for the very simple reason that the Redguards are STILL at war with the Thalmor. She would only be running from them if she either a.) betrayed her own people to the Dominion, or b.) failed to betray her own people so the Dominion is after her.
The Alik'r may be mercenaries, but it's safe to say that they aren't throwing their lot in with the Dominion when Redguard law is pretty fucking direct in "you die for betrayal" being their go to.
I'm subscribing. That " She doesn't say shit." Killed me
My DB likes taking matters into her own hands. Wait for Kematu to paralyze Saadia and then end him after collecting the reward, then use Calm on Saadia to get her reward.
Then I remind her that if I hear so much as a single "Never should have come here" when I enter the Bannered Mare, I won't hesitate to trap her in one of my soul gems.
One thing. Both these people are good at deceiving, so there's no way to get a handle on the truth just by conversational context alone. That said, if what Kematu said about Saadia being an Aldmeri sellout is true, then why aren't the Thalmor involved in her wellbeing? Also, if what Kematu said about Saadia being returned alive is true, then, why are a group of assassins being charged with the task? That makes even less sense. Saadia only tells the partial truth, Kematu is telling mostly lies. I side with Saadia ultimately because her story about being in fear for her life and the reasons why are consistent, but Kematu says one thing, does another. Yeah, makes sense if you're a damned politician.
...
Paralysis spell. Can people even breathe when struck with it? Something to consider; Saadia might of perished before returning to Hammerfell, just because of negligence. Or was killed. I don't trust Kematu.
I just love your outro 😂
I believe both are lying, but I side with Saadia. Like you said, they ultimately kill her and bring her remains to Skyrim. If the nobles of Hammerfell did hire the Alikir, they would want to keep Saadia’s remains in Hammerfell to set as an example to ward off future betrayals.
Actually, this is merely an in-game trick. See, the only way to get rid of an NPC the non-dead way is that the body disappears, and something is left behind, literally anything that registers as that NPC. And this is a 12-year-old game, after all.
@@SrChr778 That’s a reach considering most NPCs just go in a coffin with their name on it. While Saadia got a unique urn. The developers went out of their way for this. This is more than just a game mechanic.
@@Radzood Such as?
@@KingNazaruFarangar is one I know of but I don't spend time in halls of the dead normally so he's the only one I know of.
I sided with Saadia the first time I did the quest, and I will always side with her. It’s a shame they *didn’t* make her a marriage option, would have love to had that option after the quest.
I firmly believe that they are both lying, and the Aldmeri Dominion has nothing to do with this.
Actually that was my conclusion to : Kematu was truthful and the ashes are a Bathesda oversite.
I alway turn Sadia in. It never really sat right that she was on the hook for speaking out when Hammerfell was resisting the Altmer successfully
Kematu lackies have connections to the dark brotherhood not to mention his real intentions are out of unforgiving resentment over the fact she is a royal, she in the other hand already left everything behind for her crimes that she "committed".
Holy shit, that outro music brought back so many memories