Is Chris Paul the Third-Best Point Guard of All Time? | Bill Simmons's Book of Basketball 2.0
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- Опубликовано: 1 дек 2020
- Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo break down Chris Paul’s career, including his playoff losses and how those should affect his legacy. Then they debate who the third-best point guard of all time is after Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas.
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His career would have been so different if David stern didn’t nix the Lakers deal
He still played for an amazing team with the Clips. I do agree but damn he still had chances.
Welcome to the suns, the team David Stern fucked with after a cheating ref gave spurs the game.
Hey please head to my channel and watch my latest video on the Miami Heat and their off-season moves. Thanks for the support in advance!
@@CassCream
An amazing team is not the same as playing with another superstar
@@CassCream other players had better chances, its why he lost
Best media duo in the game: These dudes
I'll take Malika Andrews and Maria Taylor 😁
@@BingeworthyContent no lol
@@BingeworthyContent mmmm facts
Jalen and Jacoby also on mount rushmore
I never pass up an opportunity to hear Ryan and Bill talk hoops
John Stockton and Steph Curry not even in the conversation? Weird.
Stockton is like towards the bottom of top 10 PGs.
Curry isn't really a traditional PG
@@MrArjunchoudhary Fair point. At least in the most traditional sense. To that argument Chris Paul might be the most traditional point guard ever. Elite threat to score. Elite threat to playmake for others. He's not taller than average like Magic. He's not a freakish perimeter player like Curry. He's not out of balance in terms of scoring versus creating. He's really uniquely the model point guard. Hard to make an argument for any other in this regard - only Stockton and I. Thomas could compare, right? And even Thomas was probably more of a scorer than he was a creator for others wasn't he?
@@charliebaker7936 true but he was more of a interior playmaker and scorer. I think curries three point shooting keeps him from doing a lot of the traditional PG type things inside. My favorite of all time was Nash. Loved the way he operated inside to get the defence shifting. He was also a great shooter, probably should have shot more tbh.
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I was wanting to hear them compare him with Steph in the end. Weird he doesn’t even get a mention here.
I think they were going for high assist point guards maybe that's why he wasn't mentioned
@@TheHoppter yea maybe
I would compare...
Yo mama!!! 🤭
I think John Stockton belongs in there with the Nash Kidd and CP3 group. Even if you pick him last he deserves to be mentioned. Magic is almost too good to be in the best point guard conversation because he's in the best player of all-time conversation.
Magic
Curry
Thomas
Stockton
Kidd
@@brandonhagin7108 what about Oscar?
@@brandonhagin7108 Nash over Kidd
It's like what Tiny Archibald said, "People say 'Magic was a guard', but Magic, like Bird, was anything he wanted to be."
Stockton is right behind Magic and Isiah due to getting to finals 2x vs the GOAT, and finishing with most assists and steals All-Time. I mean...having to face Jordan 2x in a row is damned near as good as beating _everyone else once._
Then Kidd who led the Nets to Finals twice in his prime and started on the '11 Mavs.
I give CP3 the edge over Nash for his defense; Nash never cleared 1.0 steal/gm in his entire career.
Curry's a combo guard since hitting perimeter shots is his main task in the Dubs' system, and it's all he's ever played in the NBA. It works to his benefit w/ getting rings, but also to his detriment in comparisons like the one here.
I was a deron williams guy at the time. Mostly cuz I was 10 and from Illinois but along the way it just dawned on me that Paul was the best pg I've got to watch
Lmao!! Same
Best? Idk rondo at his best may have been a better pg that Paul
No shame at all, i was in my teens and from New Orleans and that debate was closer than both of them are making it out to be. Deron fell off hard af but he used to get the better of CP often.
@@daleychips7463 fax
@@t-god2439 there hasn’t been a year in either of their careers where Rondo was better so logically that’s impossible. Rondo is underrated because he was almost a 4th option on a championship team but he’s way better than that. But even in Rondos best career season he was around the 6th best PG with guys like Paul, Rose, Williams all having the better seasons with Paul usually the best. Let’s not do some revisionist history nonsense. We were there wasn’t that long ago
Love these vids
I’ve got magic, steph, and isiah Thomas. I wouldn’t be mad if you put stock to cause the assist and steals but I’ve got IT cause two rings with mj, bird, and magic in the league and a play style I prefer. I don’t see any guy other than those four in the top three pg conversation
🤔 kidd? Gary payton ?
@The Ultimate Jerry West is like 1-7 in the finals, Curry a top 3 PG
@The Ultimate yea but when you’re talking about whose the best at a position legacy and winning plays a huge role but obviously not the largest, Curry is also a better scorer being incredibly efficient while doing it and winning 3 rings. They also have the same assist numbers while Curry played WAY less minutes and has 2 MVPs, and changed basketball in the process. Did you even watch Jerry West play??
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@The Ultimate Jerry West was well before my time and spent many of his best seasons as the 2 on his team. I honestly thought he was a sg. But yes when we’re talking historically winning matters cause it all plays into the legacy and that’s important on an all time list. It’s not the only factor but it is one of them
You guys really didn’t bring up Stockton? I get not bringing up Robertson because it’s hard to accurately gauge. Stockton though, come on.
Curry.
@@ChefSwooby Curry plays much more like a SG. Green is their point forward.
@@Dwade32 not denying that, but he is listed as a PG and will go down in history as a PG. Clearly more deserving of a mention in greatest point guard conversations than Stockton who never finished top 7 in MVP voting in his life.
Stockton I think had the issue that he played the position the way most played it, and did very well at that, but these days people expect PGs to have a lot more personal offensive production
Stockton has no Left. Check it out on RUclips and you’ll understand why he doesn’t belong in this conversation.
I was at the Clips/Rockets game too. You could see it, the whole team, even CP3, was deathly afraid. They were ALL playing hot potato with the ball. A bizarre team-wide choke. With Harden on the bench too. Truly a surreal fourth quarter.
John Stockton's name not even making an appearance is abhorrent
He’s overrated. Doesn’t belong in the conversation
@@Yaboi1893 Stockton was on the dream team and grinded to make back to back finals with the franchise that drafted him, losing to MJ’s Bulls. If anything he’s underrated.
Lol! Just the nba all time assist and steal leader by far!!!
Stockton is clearly in the top 3
Less turnover and a better ft and 3pt shooter than all these other dudes!
@@samgryn7829 never top 7 in MVP voting. He was never considered a top 7 player in the league at any point of his career. He only has longevity stats. No MVP, no title.
@@ChefSwooby he led the league in assists and steals for a decade (each season) those arent longevity stats. He shot over 50% from the field as an unathletic 6'1 guard. Also, longevity is important (e.g. bill walton in 1978 was better than hakeem ever was, but nobody would say walton was a better player)
How is it even possible the ALL-TIME LEADER IN ASSISTS AND STEALS, doesn’t even get mentioned in best point guards? John Stockton.
Yeah I found that odd too. Even CP3 says that Stockton is his motivation.
If you actually watched him play you would know why. Stockton wouldnt be a top 3 pg right now in the league.
Overrated pg
At no point on John Stockton career did he ever finish in the top 7 in MVP voting.
What does that mean?
What it means is that there was never any point in Stockton's career where he was truly considered one of the very best players(top 5) in the entire league.
Nash, Paul and Kidd all have multiple seasons of finishing in the top 3 of MVP voting.
I think all three are better than John Stockton.
Stockton's career records are mainly due to a long career with the 2nd leading scorer of all time
Because all he had to do was dump it into the post to one of the best post up scorers in a post up scoring designed league.
Magic, Steph, and Isiah are all better easily
Steph was on a deep team ...he's not better
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p 2015 they faced a finals who had MATTHEW DELEVADOVA as the second best player due to Irving and loves industry...Stephen has NEVER won a finals mvp and is woefully historically inadequate in clutch moments
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p and the best player Paul played with was either "the dribbler" harden or "I dunked over a kia" griffin
Steph is terrible on D. Lol Steph shoots from 3 better that's all Steph does better. CP3 is better at Perimeter defense, post defense, help defense, mid range shooting, passing, rebounding, floor general, I could keep going but you get the point. Lol
@Jason Daley prime Steph is about 3x better than Magic let alone CP3’s bum ass relax
So was Jerry West and Oscar Robertson not point guards? I feel like both of them was better than CP3.
They were better than CP3 and most people would consider Jerry West as a SG.
They're both considered shooting guards
Idk if you can compare Point Guards in 1965 to 2005
West played PG the later part of his career, led the league in assists one year...I personally consider him a SG, but no excuse for leaving the Big O out of this discussion as well as Steph and Stockton
Oscar Roberson is not better than chris Paul. Cp3 is a better playmaker, passer, and shooter; and his stats prove this
Damn, nobody talking about Stockton. I'd take Stockton over CP3 any day, specially as a "true" point guard
Yeah no love for Stockton at all.
I'd love to see them revisit this question after this postseason.
I’m really looking forward to seeing Chris in Phoenix. This team fits him perfectly. He’ll be the third option and has a young durable team that won’t shrink in big moments. Throw in Coach Monte Williams and the veterans acquired in free agency and they are poised to do damage.
I honestly think they’re gonna challenge for the #2 seed. Ayton is like a baby Olajuwon in the making. Booker is ready for ascension and he has the balls to handle the big moments. Chris Paul and Jae Crowder are the perfect vets to put with them. They’re bringing back Bridges, Cam Johnson, Dario Saric, Jevon Carter and Cam Payne. They bring in E’twuan Moore, Langston Galloway, and Damian Jones to round out the bench. Kendrick Perkins picked them to be the biggest threat to the Lakers.
3rd option? CP3 is the best player on the team lol
@@ganeshs8522 he’s not gonna get more shots than booker
@@culbinator lmao, Pheonix is where great point guards go to age well
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how is John Stockton not the conversation?
100% Magic->Stockton->Thomas
Stockton couldn’t score well
He averaged as high as 17 PPG. And he could have easily scored more if he wasn't such an unselfish PG (applies to Kidd also).
Wheres the full pod?
Thank you guys for giving Isiah Thomas his respect. Unquestionably the 2nd greatest PG in history.
Curry’s better
I think that other than the bad luck with injuries the thing that prevented him from winning is that although he was on good teams, he has almost always been the only guy on the team that really has that desire to win. You look back on that lob city team and Blake and DJ didn't seem like they had that drive to win. Every championship team has multiple of those guys who aren't just superstars, but they have that drive or that killer instinct to win. I just think that he never really had a teammate like that.
Tough to have a Chris Paul ranking discussion without even mentioning that he's the best defensive PG of his generation (the hardest era to guard PGs so far in NBA history).
PG is hard to rank in general after Magic imo (tho I do feel like Steph has solidified himself at #2 at this point).. but CP has a case to be just as high on the list as anyone else. Like I know Zeke has the better resume.. but he also played on a much better team (relative to the rest of the league) than CP ever did (people overrated the fuck out of those Clipper teams that had zero wing play, zero bench).. and the Nash conversation ends for me the second you remember defense exists.
Cp3 had just as much help as isiah did, isiah was just a better leader and clutch player so plz don’t bring up better teams. Isiah himself said cp3 plays it too safe in the clutch cuz he worries about his stats. And nash has more mvps and had more team success as the head guy than Paul in the same conference. Nash made 3 conference finals appearances and Paul couldn’t make 1? Stop making excuses for him
@@indmslikedeez8005 It's legit delusional to say those Clippers teams were anywhere near as good as the Pistons from 88-90.
Wall was a better defender.
@@NicolasAlcalde nah. Wall was good.. but he only had a couple of years as an elite defender, and even at his best, CP was better.
If you take Isiah off of the Pistons and substitute Chris Paul in would the Pistons have beat the Bulls with Jordan, the Celtics with Bird-Parish-McHale-DJ, or the Lakers with Magic-Kareem-Worthy?
No. Chris Paul might be better at basketball than Isiah Thomas (a better defender and shooter without question), but Isiah was one of the rare special players the league had ever seen that could take over a game. Not just scoring wise, but with his attitude. He was the perfect leader of those Bad Boys Pistons. He would literally do or say whatever it took to win... Paul does not have that in him it seems. Still great, but not in the class of Magic or Isiah or Stockton.
From 2007-2009 he hit the highest peak a PG could reach. He is a definitely a top 10 all time PG.
top 5
@@ethanrobinson9475 it’s close. But look at some names of the top of the list: magic , Isiah , Stockton, Kidd , Nash. It also depends if you see curry as a pg
@@logosg curry is a pg. imo CP3 still top 5 no question in my eyes. but it is debatable. Nash and Kidd aren't better than cp3. I dont think Stockton was either.
@@ethanrobinson9475 LOL. Fair enough. He is an excellent PG
There is a severe ghosting of John Stockton going on here...
Stockton?! Curry far more deserving of a mention.
@@ChefSwooby Curry's not even a true PG.
@@PaulBenjaminJenkins still listed as a PG. will go down in history as a PG no?
@@PaulBenjaminJenkins Because he can score 30 ppg? Only the world's stupidest coach would not encourage the game's greatest shooter not to use all his best weapons.
Jonh Stockton????
WHY ARE THESE VIDEOS SO SHORT. Give us the whole pod bill!!!!!!!
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I don't think this is part of the pod
Bill we need more book of basketball!!!!!
How can they have this entire convo and 1) not mention Chris Paul's defense and 2) John Stockton in the list of great PGs? Or Steph for that matter (of course he's still playing)
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It is odd they didn't mention Stockton at all, as he's probably better than Nash/Kidd, but I think a lot of folks who watched Magic and Isiah in the 80s will agree with those two being 1 and 2. Stats don't do them justice and really does come down to eye test and intangibles of what they did as leaders and competitors to carry their teams to titles.
I never include Nash in that Wear down guard as your best guy idea around 3:30 because of that 2007 ref scandal that wemt against them that NO ONE talks about similar idea for 02 kings
Damn the Ringer has been crushing it today with great pods. The emergency Wall / Russ pod and a new BoB 2.0 pod within the last hour.
stockton is not in the mix?
I think they got to the right argument at the end. It'd debating the trifecta of Nash-Kidd-Paul and how they rank. Stockton as well. I personally have Steve Nash #1 out of those guys, but I have bias. I loved watching Phoenix play. They were one of the first bball teams I fell in love with and I love the way Nash can pass the ball. He was also clutch as fuck.
Can you please do one for Kevin McHale and Wilt Chamberlain.
Best PG of All Time is either Magic or Steph then Isiah,, Big O, Stockton, then CP3, so he is the sixth
Jason Kidd is better as well. He carried the Nets to the finals and won a title with the Mavs. He could also rebound
He's not Top 15
@@datguitarplayer1656 stop talking basketball
@@talkingmoney4499 What has he won? How many rings does he have? Finals appearances? What team has he elevated to greatness based on his talents as a player and leader? What teammates has he elevated beyond what they did before and after him? Who got a monster contract because they were overrated from playing alongside CP3?
I'll stop talking basketball when you can answer any of those questions. Unfortunately for you, you're gonna have to keep waiting because none of those things have happened yet and you're still waiting for him to do any one of those things that you and I and everyone else hold "Super Stars" accountable for doing. Because for all the "greatness" you see I only see an empty resume and a trail of teams and teammates who thought the same as you but were ultimately let down by a hollow set of skills that translated to an empty resume.
@@datguitarplayer1656 He's just the most talked about point guard, with nothing to show for. Probably because he's friends with Lebron and because of his work in the Players Union. He's a great player, but he's also the most overrated player in Nba History.
I just wish he went to the lakers and gets 1 or 2 rings his legacy would totally change.
Man, talk about some major major Stockton snubbage
he always gets snubbed by guys that have never played in the NBA. but players like gary payton will say stockton is the best
Chris Paul is like a excellent chess player who has always blunders his queen at a big tournament.
That's a nice line. Wish basketball were 1v1 to make it work better tho
You guys give no respect to John Stockton. You discount his assists stats because he had Malone but points are points. As much as I loved Nash, Paul and Kidd, none of them had better careers than Stockton.
Stockton could not score. It’s that simple
@@aubhreypender3091 a point guard's #1 job isnt to score, despite what russell westbrook might tell you. stockton also averaged 15 points for 10+ seasons, not bad at all for a pg who spent most of his time passing.
@@golfinguru11 but could you give Stockton the ball and trust him to take over a game? No. At the end of the day the most important aspect of basketball is putting the ball in the hoop. Chris Paul, magic, and Isaiah could all carry their team at the end of the game as scorers. There is a time to pass and a time to be aggresive. Stockton did not have the skill set to do what they could do. They were all better players.
Stockton was never the best point guard in the league. Not once in his nearly 20 year career. He was a solid and durable PG.
@@aubhreypender3091 chris paul absolutely failed in carrying his team repeatedly. If scoring is all that matters, russell westbrook is better than magic johnson. Also, he could definitely take over the game at the end, go watch game 6 of the 96 eastern conference finals...one of the most clutch performances of all time ruclips.net/video/be-EEL7FfQM/видео.html
Y'all need to chill on Stockton being a goat. Dude fed Karl Malone his entire career.
You realize this arguement goes both ways right? Malone benefited from Stockton feeding him the ball too
Yeah, Stockton has nothing to do with facilitating tremendously easy baskets and being the floor general to organize open post-ups for Malone.
you need to watch more of his games than highlights, legends like Jordan and Payton hated playing against Stockton and there’s a reason to that
Magic Isaiah Steph Big O
(Cp3 Nash Kidd Stockton)
The best point guard who can shoot pass ,Oscar Robinson , pistol pete, magic , John Stockton
The recency bias for Steph is over inflated. When he's done maybe people will be able to rank him in proper context. He'll be up there.
How many players in nba history have 2 mvps and 3 titles? My guess is no more than 5
@@TheShachattack13 true but let's be real if KD doesn't go there its possible he only has 1 ring
He's already up there. 2nd best pg in my eyes.
Jordan,Kareem, bron, magic, bird, and probably some old school guys like bill Russell so a bit more than 5 but it’s a short list for sure
@@elbowgang9715 if Kyrie wasn't injured he may never have won
For everyone talking about Steph, they mention him in the pod, just not this clip
Looking at career plus minus in reg season and playoffs is compelling imo
9:43 can you defend CP3's performance in 2019 against GSW?
Did they say before they came on air do not mention John Stockton.
magic steph isaiah nash paul
Where's Big O?
Nash was a nobody til phoenix shifted the sport.
Yeah, but they weren't including Steph on purpose
@@coreyeatmon5101 Yeah, everyone has two MVP's 🤣
Guys-- what about John Stockton?
What about him
Nope not even above stock
Magic Zeke Steph? He's not top 3 lol
Steph is overrated lol you can’t be top 3 at your position while being a liability on half of the floor
Cp3 almost beat him when he had harden n steph had 3 hof team mates
@@uchennakpaduwa9592 Curry ain't no defensive liability, that's a casual remark, and his offensive arsenal and gravitas is historical and makes his teams much better for it. Chris Paul ain't drawing 3 dudes and creating mismatches all the time due to the fear and pressure he puts on opposing defenses.
@@uchennakpaduwa9592 Steph is the greatest shooter of all time, 3 rings, 2 MVP's (1 one of which was unanimous), revolutionized the sport, and was a plus defender (check the stats). Nice try though.
@@uchennakpaduwa9592 Magic and Isiah weren’t that good at defense either.
@@sorchigo I don't think he's overrated and he did revolutionize the game but I don't think you can put him over Isiah. Curry has no finals MVPs and had the most stacked team in history for two of his rings. He's the best shooter of all time but I still think he falls behind Magic and Isiah in PG rankings.
Rusillo gotta decide if he's gonna go full baldy like urlacher or fully hair plugs like urlacher
this is a W
Love Bill & Russillo..but Steph not even mentioned when referencing best ever? I'd imagine Curry is #2 on most list's even ahead of Isiah.
Great point. I'd much rather have Steph and Steph basically warped the NBA to try and mimic his play style because of how wildly successful he was. Maybe the argument is that Steph isn't really a pure point god and plays more like a two but otherwise Steph is just better. CP3 never won an MVP or a chip. Case closed.
I think it’s because Curry isn’t a “pure point guard” like Nash Paul and IT. It’s a silly argument but I agree, curry is probably the best PG all time
@@MrMikkkkkkkk Steph is not better than Magic
Steph curry is only a “pg” in the sense that he is small and that’s what they pencil him in as in the score book. Draymond acts as their PG (kind of) and lead the team in assist since 2015. Steph doesn’t set the table and tempo for the team. That is Green’s responsibility. Steph is much more impactful as a player than Paul could ever be. Steph changed the game! But as a pure pg he doesn’t come close to Paul.
Quantum Communities but championship is a team award and steve nash has two mvps and Cp3 is way better than him
Question no ones asking! How's he better than Walt Frazier? What skill? What stats? What accomplishments?
The best NBA analysis
Here's how you defend OKC. The other team had the superior player, their 2nd best player was arguably on cp3s level. That cp3 got his team to that point is NOT a negative. For fucks sake. That Houston won without Harden should wake these guys up to the fact that it's a TEAM GAME
I don't think you could call him the 3rd best PG without at least a Finals appearance. Especially since you got guys that are beyond him in statistics and overall success. Definitely in the Top 10. But there's too many easy choices ahead of him. Like Jason Kidd, Stephen Curry, Zeke, John Stockton and of course Magic to name a few.
Magic is untouchable, but Curry led a dynasty in an era with Lebron at his peak unlike Isaiah who had to get it done before Jordan and the Bulls ascended.
72 win season
Unanimous MVP
2 MVP awards
3 time champion
6 time ALL-NBA
And completely redefined how offense is played in the NBA in a way perhaps no player has done.
Magic
Curry
Everyone else
W
Magic, Zeke and Curry top 3.. Oscar, Stockton, Kidd, Paul, Nash is the next tier.
isiah ahead of oscar is laughable. no mention of bob cousy is also laughable.
I would put Nash over Kidd
Shocked I had to scroll this far to see my boy Steve Nash
Surprised they didn't mention John Stockton as in the running for second best PG. All time leader in assists, made two finals, lost to Jordan's Bulls. I'd take him over Isiah, Paul, Nash, or Kidd.
3:30
Rusillo doesn't properly listen to or answer the question 🤣
Why is Oscar Robertson being left out of this argument?
That's a solid point
And why did they leave out:
Yo Mama!!!
Top 3 PG’s ever is Magic, then Steph, then either Thomas or Stockton at 3. I personally would prefer Stockton, but I get picking Thomas over Stockton
Lots of fair questions about Stockton being left off being rebuffed with the idea that he shouldn’t even be in the convo. Go look for any comments you can find by guards who played against him. A man’s respect amongst his peers tells you all you need to know,
Stockton isn't in the conversation with Magic or Isiah. Right under them, but not in the conversation as better.
Really wish they brought up how Scott Foster is like the Undertaker at Wrestlemania when he’s officiating Chris Paul. Think it’s like 14-0 in the playoffs or something like that
What do these guys have against Steph Curry?
John Stockton? (Of course people will say he played with Malone / never won a title) Intelligence , hard nosed. Better 3 point / clutch shooter than he gets credit for. And the ways guys from that era talk about playing against him!
Cp3 needs a chip to be in the convo of best PGs
You can tell how much people really know about basketball by how they grade John Stockton, best pure PG in history and a truly great defender
The fact they don’t even mention him is insane
I agree to the extent that he should be mentioned, but lets cool it on John Stockton
I understand and like this take but buddy I'm going to tell you the truth about why no one puts respeck his name:
1. Playing with Malone who is a top 25 player makes ppl discount him(wrongly)
1.5: Malone is a bad dude and by association ppl don't talk about stock
2: playing in Utah, ppl don't give you the credit you deserve
3. Played in the Jordan era, a lot of great players get forgotten because of it
4. His game was fundamental and not sexy. PGs are the main attraction in today's nba and ppl don't like watching fundamental players(sad)
Its a crime that stock doesn't get the shine he deserves, but the real hoopers know about guys like him and Mark price
@@jtrix34 agreed man( except for 1.5 which I’m not sure is that relevant tbh)
Stockton was a better pure PG than Isiah but Isiah was more athletic, a better scorer and imposed himself from a scoring standpoint, in terms of pure PG skills tho Stockton was better
He was a better playmaker for others, more efficient shooter, better fundamentals, super reliable, had more longevity and a better defender also, their assists, steals and shooting % numbers are all in Stocktons favour by a considerable margin in some areas
Stockton was the archetypal pure PG who had Malone as the main scoring option where as IT was the main option too tbh
He’s a small, non flashy white guy who played for Utah and never won a chip tho so never gets the praise he deserves
Magic is in category all by himself really due to his size
In terms of pure PGs Stockton is infront of everyone tbh
Oh and yeah man Mark Price was pure quality too 👍
Shame he couldn’t stay healthy...
Stockton is definitely top 10 best PGs but most people wouldn't put him in the top 3 because
1: He played for almost his entire career with another top 30 player all-time and didn't get a chance to really prove what he could do without Malone (unlike Kobe & Shaq or Magic & Kareem)
2: His longevity was definitely impressive but his peak was never a consensus top 5 player in the league
3: Utah's offense was monotonous, it was spamming the Stockton - Malone pick and roll or Stockton throwing a pass to Malone for a post-up (Yes, It is definitely a deadly weapon however in the playoffs where a team can build a whole game plan to stop their opponent it became super predictable)
4: Assists totals are vastly overrated. Most players to average 10+ assists don't win championships except for a few anomalies (LeBron in 2020, Magic). Players who average 10+ assists often do so because there are no other consistent creators on their team so they can rack up assist totals.
@@JeyDub08 I’m talking about pure PGs man, no idea why you bring up a bunch of guys who aren’t even PGs tbh...
Magic, IT, Stockton, Nash, Curry, CP3
You slow
Curry is better then mash Stockton and it
John Stockton needs to be in this conversation. Him and Isiah Thomas were normal sized with big games.
I've watched the Game 5 against final minutes clip a lot of times, and I have always thought that the Refs fucked it up for CP. That foul on Westbrook's 3 was questionable, especially compare to the no call on Reggie Jackson from the last play. If you call foul on the Westbrook's 3. The same standard should be use on the play RIGHT AFTER. It's still one of my biggest pain (besides Rockets vs Warriors game 7). And I truely believe the Refs fucked the 2018 Rockets and 2014 Clippers up where CP could have gone much further in the playoff.
agreed
Where does Stockton rank then?
chris paul is my favourite point gaurd. hes a great defender for his size. very disruptive and always annoying for the other team to score against. unreal mid range shooter which is nice to watch. deceptively good finisher and 3pt shooter. and his best skill of all incredible play maker. i dont know where to rank him on the all time pg list but hes definitely up there surely.
Oscar has always been considered a point guard on every list I have ever seen. He is usually No. 2.
I'm not a huge fan, but it's a little ridiculous that Stockton isn't mentioned in this conversation.
Going to need a basketball 3.0 for Chris after the last year and a half
Not sure why Curry wasn’t mentioned.
1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. Isiah
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Stockton
8. Walt Frazier
9. Iverson
10. Kidd
U left off westbrook? Lmao pure hate
@@ganeshs8522 Damn Westbrook is my favorite player smh.
W
Always disliked "best pure point guard" arguments, because it always felt like a shot against Magic, like somehow being huge and being able to score somehow are knocks against his PG ability.
same argument was used against oscar 20 years earlier, its a dumb argument.
It is a knock against anyone who plays the game in an unorthodox fashion or not built physically like a point guard. It’s so stupid
I don't think anyone takes Magic out of that conversation - he was a physically unusual player, but he played the position pretty traditionally. Even in this conversation, they don't talk about Magic much, not because he's not in the conversation, but because everyone acknowledges that he's the #1 answer, so the debate is around #s 2-5 or so.
The disrespect. JOHN STOCKTON
Magic , Steph, Oscar, West, Isiah, Stockton/CP3
where is john stockton in point guard rating????
Chris Paul got drafted 2005 -- here's the teams that won since he's been in the league:
1- Wade & Shaq
2- Duncan/ Parker/ Ginobili Spurs
4- Lebron + Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love or AD
2- Kobe/ Pau
1- Dirk
3- The Warriors
1- KG, Pierce, Allen, Tondo Celtics
CP3's best team maybe better than the '11 Mavs, but thats it.
CP3 is the greatest hooper below 6'2, and the only guy close is Thomas. What the fuck has Blake or Deandre done since? How about Harden? How about all those New Orleans turds he used to drag to the playoffs?
Magic Johnson, Stockton, Curry, Thomas, then Paul. Maybe
Stockton is not over curry or Isaiah
I have it 1. Lebron 2. Magic 3. Nash
All had S-tier court vision and scoring ability
Shut up
Bill Simmons is the best!!! Also Ryen Russillo
You should either hold Chris Paul accountable for the lack of playoff success or not put so much emphasis on playoff success for legacy. Playoff results totally distort the legacies of amazing players who are stuck with weaker rosters
Greg Oden would have been dominant if it wasn't for injuries. Best big in the last 10 years.
I don’t mean to insinuate there cannot be a strong argument made for Paul being one of the best 1’s of all time, I am saying the argument presented is weak.
Oscar Robertson?
Stockton doesn't even get mentioned ??
Hadn't heard much of bill simmons' stuff that wasn't about the celtics, glad i did. Great segment that got the nuances & research of the context for so many of those big games. I think Magic, Isaiah, and then cp3/nash/kidd as the tiers of "best pure pgs" is fair.
The 2014 is the biggest mark against cp3's career, and as much as he's my favorite player, he has been unable to transcend into Isaiah's level by converting that last one big play, despite the fact that he'd done all his homework and prep to put him and his team in position to do so. And like was mentioned, every other year, he was either hurt, blake was hurt, or both were hurt. It's unfortunate.
But cp3's value was so high from the pg position that it nears lebron levels, without lebron's durability and natural gifts. This past year with OKC is an example of his immense value, even past his prime, as an underdog team, not favored to make the playoffs, much less win against the rockets, but falling short in 7. Cp3 got them every bit there, but he fell short in game 7 with his missed open floater, and his scrambled pass to SGA that led to harden's block on dort. Kind of sums up his career thus far. Hoping this year with the suns tells something different.
It's insane how those guys disrespected curry back then.
John Stockton is the 3rd best PG, if we are talking traditional floor generals. How did he not even get mentioned? He’s the all time leader in assists!
Magic Thomas and Steph. Cp3 somewhere in that 4-7 range.
Russillo is the best current podcaster. And good tv show recommendations. Hightown and Yellowstone are awesome!
Interesting piece but how could John Stockton not even get a mention?
Steph has to be number 2. After that I think it’s close
i think this was a "pure" point guard convo cause there is no way they name Nash before Steph
Uncle Dru yeah this is a great point, as Russillo is a big Steph guy. And there is no way he thinks Paul is better than Curry.
@@uncledru7523 Exactly
@@uncledru7523 that’s a fair point, the definition of “point guard” has definitely changed over the years and yeah Steph is probably a hybrid 1/2 instead of a classic 1
look at curry man
i’m taking magic, steph, zeke, and oscar before him easily
no love for rod strickland?
Hindi po
Rose (pre-injury) was incredible. He'd be up there if not for everything that happen
What about Jerry West? Is he more of a shooting guard?
Yes, he is considered a SG by most