Shirley her brother Jack and I were on the Fountain Valley HS swim team. We worked our tails off and had a blast. We were referred to as the Fish...Good times.
@@lkfrostad Keith!? Really?I had NO idea what had happened with her, specifically with regards to how impressive her big meet debut went- at the '86 Madrid Worlds in the 800 free, winning bronze behind the one and only Astrid & the other GDR swimmer- I think it was Katja Hartmann. We need to finally chat. I always wondered what happened with Debbie after that, and not that I want us to chat to discuss Debbie; I draw a strong line whenever it comes to a person wanting to engage me in conversing about any person who has been in the public eye when it gets to the fine line of crossing over into privacy rights. (besides, we've got a list of fun things to chat about!)- But if I may just say, with all due respect to all of our US distance female internationally ranked in the 2 to 3 years before '88 trials- each had an equal chance. So even though I knew both Leslie Daland and Kathy Hettche had swum times at the Goodwill Games around 3 seconds faster than Debbie's time, IMHO, with Debbie's bronze while representing our "A" team, her race rather than her time was what I felt gave her an early favorite. I can understand the Janet factor, but was and still am shocked at how fast Tami Bruce went in her 800 at trials (she was WAY off that time in Seoul) as well as not hearing or reading anything in print reporting injuries or what have you about Daland, Hettche and Babashoff.
Lydia Dugan. Yeah, and they called Her a sore loser , back then, after She complained during the Olympics. She would've won several Gold Medals. But the Oral Turinabol made the difference.
The East Germans WERE terrible technicians for the most part! It was just brute strength. Kornelia Ender was really the only East German swimmer who I think would have achieved greatness even without the steroids. Look at her swims in the 1972 Olympics, aged 13, before the DDR started the drugging program. She was going to be great no matter what. But 99% of the others would have been finalists at best, not medalists.
Shirley Babashoff was the greatest swimmer of her time. I do not blame her for being bitter. Kornelia Ender was on steroids, making her a cheat whether she was aware of it or not. Give Shirley her golds!
@@TheManuel012009 Of course she was heavily influenced by the propaganda fed to her, along with the systemic fear, and the financial incentives given her to keep quiet, be convinced she was only taking vitamins, etc. But I dont understand what your point is in relation to the fact that nonetheless, regardless of her circumstances, she still was unquestionably doped. I agree those girls were harmed on a most inhumane level and while yes I agree it would be justice to see those girls get medals who did not because of what we know now- but i AM ABSOLUTELY against the IOC or FINA forcing those women to return their medals.
I regret to tell you that regarding your statement above, as much as we are both clearly in agreement, that GDR system would have only been seen as a state sponsored program similar to the the recent Russian lab scandals, because aside from not having ANY out of competition random mandatory drug testing until 1989, even then, the now mandated self-reporting system of exactly when and where you will be during a given time period had not yet been fully worked out. So the GDR athletes like Astrid Strauss, Katrin Krabbe, Grit Breuer, etc, were constantly on the move to different training sites, such as in Cuba or South Africa (where Strauss was finally tested and caught). Only the "biological passport" type of drug analysis over an 8 year period using those frozen samples and comparing with later blood results for inconsistencies impossible to occur just naturally, would they have been caught.
Americans are very entitled and they consider themselves to be "outspoken" but they never put the mirror up to themselves. The GDR sports system was questionable, but let's discuss it and come up with real solutions. Instead, for Westerners it's about pointing fingers, insulting Socialist female athletes by calling them "masculine" and classifying everyone as "drug cheats". This feature speaks volumes about hard work and discipline. Did Kornelia Ender take a pill that made her a stellar technician with unequivocal discipline?
All those Olympic swimmers were stellar technicians with amazing discipline. The difference was the much greater amount of power the East Germans could apply per stroke, due to being much more powerful from steroids.
Those starts where trash. I don't even understand how they didn't find earlier that beeing under water is actually faster.... Not to mention the terrible head positions and flutter kicks in the air. it's crazy how we have improved.
Forget gold medals, what about the things that were done to East German athletes without their consent? The steroids caused various health issues and birth defects. In one case steroids caused a woman to transition into a man. This is one Yank that isn't sour about losing, just appalled by the results of a Frankenstein experiment.
Shirley her brother Jack and I were on the Fountain Valley HS swim team. We worked our tails off and had a blast. We were referred to as the Fish...Good times.
I swam with shirleys sister Debbie at university of Miami and we too had a blast!!
@@lkfrostad Keith!? Really?I had NO idea what had happened with her, specifically with regards to how impressive her big meet debut went- at the '86 Madrid Worlds in the 800 free, winning bronze behind the one and only Astrid & the other GDR swimmer- I think it was Katja Hartmann. We need to finally chat. I always wondered what happened with Debbie after that, and not that I want us to chat to discuss Debbie; I draw a strong line whenever it comes to a person wanting to engage me in conversing about any person who has been in the public eye when it gets to the fine line of crossing over into privacy rights. (besides, we've got a list of fun things to chat about!)- But if I may just say, with all due respect to all of our US distance female internationally ranked in the 2 to 3 years before '88 trials- each had an equal chance. So even though I knew both Leslie Daland and Kathy Hettche had swum times at the Goodwill Games around 3 seconds faster than Debbie's time, IMHO, with Debbie's bronze while representing our "A" team, her race rather than her time was what I felt gave her an early favorite. I can understand the Janet factor, but was and still am shocked at how fast Tami Bruce went in her 800 at trials (she was WAY off that time in Seoul) as well as not hearing or reading anything in print reporting injuries or what have you about Daland, Hettche and Babashoff.
I was wondering where you got this video. The quality is outstanding for that era. Do you have more from the Montreal Olympics?
Maybe direct from ABC Sports? Someone had access to a working quad machine. 😉😉
Surly Shirley! Give it a rest.
The hell with that. She got screwed by those East German Guys.
Very interesting. So much for Babashoff's claim that the East Germans
were poor technician's in the water.
Good thing Kornelia had those steroids to help overcome her poor arm motion and turning skills.
Oral turanobol made the difference. It is an established fact.
Lydia Dugan. Yeah, and they called Her a sore loser , back then, after She complained during the Olympics. She would've won several Gold Medals. But the Oral Turinabol made the difference.
Very interesting slow motion breakdown video.Technicians powered by Turinabol and hard work.
The East Germans WERE terrible technicians for the most part! It was just brute strength. Kornelia Ender was really the only East German swimmer who I think would have achieved greatness even without the steroids. Look at her swims in the 1972 Olympics, aged 13, before the DDR started the drugging program. She was going to be great no matter what. But 99% of the others would have been finalists at best, not medalists.
Shirley Babashoff was the greatest swimmer of her time. I do not blame her for being bitter. Kornelia Ender was on steroids, making her a cheat whether she was aware of it or not. Give Shirley her golds!
Lydia Dugan kornelia was also heavily brainwashed with anti American capitalist sentiment that masked the greatest cheats in Olympic history GDR.
@@TheManuel012009 Of course she was heavily influenced by the propaganda fed to her, along with the systemic fear, and the financial incentives given her to keep quiet, be convinced she was only taking vitamins, etc. But I dont understand what your point is in relation to the fact that nonetheless, regardless of her circumstances, she still was unquestionably doped. I agree those girls were harmed on a most inhumane level and while yes I agree it would be justice to see those girls get medals who did not because of what we know now- but i AM ABSOLUTELY against the IOC or FINA forcing those women to return their medals.
@@Parker528 maybe restrospective gold medals need to handed over to Shirley babashoff as an option.
@@Parker528 Justice For Shirley Babashoff and Others? FINA Will Explore Doping History and Awarding Proper Medals
They should test all the frozen samples from the past! Testing is way more advanced now! There be a hell of a lot of gold medals handed back!
I regret to tell you that regarding your statement above, as much as we are both clearly in agreement, that GDR system would have only been seen as a state sponsored program similar to the the recent Russian lab scandals, because aside from not having ANY out of competition random mandatory drug testing until 1989, even then, the now mandated self-reporting system of exactly when and where you will be during a given time period had not yet been fully worked out. So the GDR athletes like Astrid Strauss, Katrin Krabbe, Grit Breuer, etc, were constantly on the move to different training sites, such as in Cuba or South Africa (where Strauss was finally tested and caught). Only the "biological passport" type of drug analysis over an 8 year period using those frozen samples and comparing with later blood results for inconsistencies impossible to occur just naturally, would they have been caught.
Americans are very entitled and they consider themselves to be "outspoken" but they never put the mirror up to themselves. The GDR sports system was questionable, but let's discuss it and come up with real solutions. Instead, for Westerners it's about pointing fingers, insulting Socialist female athletes by calling them "masculine" and classifying everyone as "drug cheats".
This feature speaks volumes about hard work and discipline. Did Kornelia Ender take a pill that made her a stellar technician with unequivocal discipline?
All those Olympic swimmers were stellar technicians with amazing discipline. The difference was the much greater amount of power the East Germans could apply per stroke, due to being much more powerful from steroids.
Those starts where trash. I don't even understand how they didn't find earlier that beeing under water is actually faster.... Not to mention the terrible head positions and flutter kicks in the air. it's crazy how we have improved.
Shirley who?
The Yanks are sour. With the gold or nothing culture.
Like Renate Stecher says in the interview, Raylene was not that far behind, or that she was not that far ahead. Raylene could have tried better.
Forget gold medals, what about the things that were done to East German athletes without their consent? The steroids caused various health issues and birth defects. In one case steroids caused a woman to transition into a man. This is one Yank that isn't sour about losing, just appalled by the results of a Frankenstein experiment.
@@couch.patati-patata Sudeep, are you saying Stecher ran clean ?
@@whahappened8398 in 76 she looked like a guy. In 72 it was close. Didn't matter, because all the girls were running the same times.
@@couch.patati-patata if I am to understand you correctly, you dont think steroids gave Stecher an advantage ?