🤔Failed floor on cement Backer boards, why this happens.
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- Опубликовано: 12 янв 2018
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Failed floor on cement Backer boards, why this happens. When installing tile on a cement backer board, like Durock, or Hardie backer board, it is critical to follow the manufacturers recommendations and instructions on how to install them. These companies, design, test and develop these products, so they know how they should be installed to perform as designed and to be trouble free. If you read the directions, if you look at the TCNA, (Tile Council of North America) you will find that they should be installed on a bed of thinset, and that the seams should be tapped, it is not optional, but specifically called out as a requirement, along with the fastener type schedule. Ignoring these can and will result in failure of the floor. There are some people on RUclips that promote an improper way of installing these products, and should be ignored, always follow manufacturer requirements to have a successful install. In this video a colleague in the industry certified as an inspector, and a CTI (Certified Tile Installer), Member of the NTCA (National Tile Contractors Association) and very experienced in the trade, describes how a tile floor installed on a cement board has failed, and why.
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Jeremy J. Waldorf
Legacy Floors LLC
Certified Hard Surface Installation and Inspection.
Crooked Lake Rd, Howell, Michigan 48843
LegacyFloors1@gmail.com
/ legacyfloors
(810) 599-0706 cell
www.mylegacyfloors.com/
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Here is jeremy giving a reasoned response to that guy on the other youtube channel that claims to be a tile installer. Jeremy is very knowledgeable and has credentials to back it up. ruclips.net/video/J_d_mk93SjY/видео.html
i also though so.
Well I must admit something about that "other guy"... he sure is correct about one thing. It's really easy to demo when you install the wrong way... LMAO!!!!!! By the way, for those of you who don't know, his entire rational for not using thinset under backer board is so that it will be easy to demo in the future. Oh, and he's a dick about it to boot.
The other guy has been telling people all along to do installs incorrectly. He did say that it would be easy to remove in the future. Now who builds things that are easily removed in the future, I have always been told that it should be difficult to remove. That other guy also goes against the products instructions on doing a preslope on shower pans, he says they are not necessary. I have seen where he compares himself to you, I say not even close.
@@robteleeiii8567 Funny thing... I just demoed my upstairs bathroom to the studs. Guess what? The old porcelain tile was installed onto Hardie Board that was adhered with thinset to the wood subfloor and screwed every 8 inches. E.g. I was done correctly, though it appeared they did not leave a small gap and tape/thinset the seams. Was is "difficult" to remove? No, it was just work to remove. I busted up the tile into little pieces with a 20# jack hammer using a chisel tip (worked quickly and great). After cleaning up the tile, I handed my 15 y/o son my cordless screwdriver and told him to remove the 100+? screws (About 50 sq ft total). 30 minutes later he was done. I then pried up the backer board, which separated easily from the thinset. I had to remove a few remaining stubborn screws and was done. I still have to scrape away some old thinset, but that is easily done with a saws-all and a Spyder scraper blade.
Was I cursing the original installers for doing it right? Absolutely not! I was impressed... that tile has been there for over 24 years with zero issues. At least I think it has. Does anyone know how long Hardie board has been around? I found the label on the bottom of two boards and it had the instructions on it for installation along with the name. I'm not 100% sure this tile is original to the house (built in 1994).
Long story short... the excuse of doing it wrong for the sake of later demo being easier is utterly ridiculous. DO NOT listen to the "other guy" as he's giving horrible advice. Sal is the man and the "other guy" can't hold a candle to him. People that use their own personal, empirical evidence to justify doing something wrong have a screw loose. I'll take the manufacturer's instructions over that kind of advice any day.
@@kenhoward127 excellent reply there Ken, Sal should be proud. Lol.
I wish I had found you years ago. I have done 3 bathroom floors in my own home in years past and I have broken almost every rule mentioned here in your great video. I have failure in two baths. Because i didn't tape seams, I didn't bond the cement board to the subfloor, I used drywall screws, and now my joints are cracking. All because I was given BAD advice by people in the construction industry that I feel just simply didn't know any better.
Very common story.
Great video. I just went and looked at a small remodel project and in the main bathroom, boom!, exactly that, broken tiles along the seams. I have run into this several times over the years myself. It is too simple to find out the proper way to install most anything. Those guys make me look like a genius. Keep it up guys! 😉
Plenty of training and education available, but not enough qualified installers that seek it out.
just getting ready to do some floors, so glad I watch this, I was not going to do the thin set ...now I am. Can Not hurt
I am installing my own tile floor with fiber rock
And I didn’t think I needed thin set underneath but now I’m thinking differently
Thank you so much for all of the vital information
Thank you for this video. It helps out a lot to know how to do things the proper way.
Great video! Love the oft repeated phrase, "Follow the manufacturer's directions" :)
Thanks for the video. Before beginning a diy project, I always check a few videos, even if I've done that project a few times before. On tile installations for showers, I always tape the joints with the alkali resistant mesh. I have no idea why I never thought of doing that for my floor installation. (Last tile floor was over a concrete former garage floor; that's held up great.)
It is always a good idea to try and update the knowledge you have, to see if there is something new or something you missed.
Thank you so much. Have been so discouraged with grout failing over and over again. Cracking tiles too. I thought it was because my house is pier and beam, and on a busy road with lots of vibration from vehicles and trucks. I finally have a legitimate answer! Hate to have to remove all the tile, but at least I have concrete answers (no pun intended).
I had not planned to utilize thin set under the durarock. When I demo’d my bathroom, there was none and there were literally gaps in the sub floor an inch wide. Who does this kind of work. We have been redoing this home since buying it three years ago and although flooring wasn’t my area as a builder, I didn’t know the effects of not laying the thin set under the rock. Thanks guys. Probably saved me some heartache down the road.
Thanks, glad it helped
Thank you! Im doing a DIY tile job & doing some research. You're video has helped me in that endeavor.
👍
We recently replaced a shower and had to tear out a portion of the floor. Mind you, this was the townhome the Builder had constructed for his mother. The cement board was stapled to the subfloor and easily came up. No thin-set mortar. At least the floor tile will be easy to remove!! Thanks Sal for a great video.
Thanks Jeff, and yet there are those that promote doing it the wrong way.
Shame, once cement board is adhered with thin-set it's so much more solid.
It is always better to do it the right way, we both know that.
Yes, couldn't agree more. This year we'll be highlighting more of the CTEF, TCNA, and TCNA standards in videos.
Great, the more they are promoted, the better.
Thank you Sal, you are a master and the way you explain thing are easily understandable
Absolutely correct I've been laying tile and marble Well over 44 years By using polyurethane seam in the seams on your pre float never had one fail yet.
Im having my tile laid on my kitchen . I wall ontop of the cement board and in some places it goes down a bit and seems loose or wiggly . Is that normal ?
Thanks for this I wished you lived near me Berkeley IL. I would like to do my kitchen floor over and bathroom over. I'm going to do this. This helped me a lot. Thanks, Sir.
These videos are super great Sal! Thank you!
Thank you for your detailed and insiteful videos, Sal.
Great knowledge to soak in...
Thanks
Thanks! Good info for me while I make plans to install tile for my new kitchen.
Love videos like this, to many guy’s that don’t thinset the board down. It’s mandatory
Thanks for watching my video.
So many hack jobs out there, its crazy. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it. If you’ve been taught crap you do crap. Keep up the great videos Sal! Love you channel,”.
So glad to see this video. I had to argue with a Home Depot person who was trying to convince me that I only had to screw Hardie board down without thinset.
That was your first mistake, listening to a sales person in a box store.
I am a diy girl and I always have to argue with the homedepot sales people!!! I watch at least 20 videos of different opinions and read ALL the comments and I would rather over do it than under and redo a job I have 9 kids and my husband is a busy businessman so I want to do the job 1 and done!!!
I would rather spend more $ than time!! I cant get back my time lol!!! Thanks for you videos!!!
I have had men get offended just because I was a woman but I have remodeled a whole house with my 17 year old daughter!!! Smh!
@@MegaMommaUlman Don't bother arguing, get what you need and leave, a sales person at a box store is the last person you want to ask for advice, unless it is to locate something in their store, and even then it will be hit or miss. I once asked one of them where a tool was, he told me they don't carry it just as I spotted it right behind him, and reached out to get the last one saying well you don't have any more now.
If you ask 3 different employees at Home Depot or Lowes the same question, you can get 3 different answers. It's on US to research and know exactly what to do to get it right. Also, I'm not quite understanding why the ditra membranes are so expensive.
we had thinset under our hardibacker board in 2011 when our 12x12 tile was installed. In December 2017 we started taking it up to replace it. The thinset under the hardibacker board pretty much went to dust and nothing was sticking except the screws that were used. There was still enough that attached the tile to hardibacker board. All hardibacker board and tile was taken up before installing the cement board. Floor was leveled better from the beams under the basement, and some leveling in low lieing spots on the floor before cement board was installed. What was installed over it was 6x40 plank wood look tile 1/8" grout line
The reason the thinset under the cement board turned to dust could have been caused by many things, the most common of which is installer error. That is why it is important to have a qualified installer do the job. using the right materials is one thing, knowing how to use them is another.
Hello Sal. I appreciate your contribution to the youtube community and love your vids. I have two question if I may? I will be installing .25 hardibacker, for tile, in a bathroom and put roofing felt over the plywood. Can I continue with the thinset, .25 and countersink. screws? Lastly, I also bought ditra membrane which is orange in color. Is it ok to put it down over the .25 hardibacker afterwards?
Thank you! This was very helpful. Likely saved me some time and more importantly some $$
Hi Sal, Thank you for the very informative video. I hope that even though this is a few years old I will get a response.
I am in process of redoing my small 1960's bathroom. I took up 1960's mosaic type floor tile and discovered a few things that I have questions about, hoping you can offer solutions.
1) The paper backing with the small holes that held the tiles together, along with grout lines seems to be a permanent part of the underlayment. Can thinset be applied over this to successfully bond the backer board? (1/4" backer). If not, any suggestions on how to remove it? I was thinking a wire brush on a drill.
2) The underlayment is 50% plywood by the toilet and tub and 50% particle board from the middle to the opposite wall to the vanity. The particle board is under where the vanity is going, and extends to the entry area, almost half way into the room. I read that particle board does not hold screws well, so I thought to use longer backer board screws to pass through the particle board and fasten to the plywood subfloor. Is this ok?
3) At the seam where the particle board meets the plywood there are many , many nails (rusted heads) in about a 2 ft strip of the particle board. My guess is that it was not level or it may have swelled at installation and it was beat down with all the nails to make it even with the plywood. There is no joist below this seam so all the nails are going into the subfloor. My first thought was to tear it all out, but then I read that the particle board could be glued and it will be a nightmare to remove. I am concerned that one or more of these nails may decide to move. Can I seal the particle board and nail heads and then use thinset and durock over it all?
Thank you in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.
Do you need to put durarock on a cement basment floor to install tile over it ...or do you just do the dry pack to level the floor and thinset over the dry pack ... id like to do my own bathroom tiles but with so many choices im lost trying to make the best long-lasting decisions ... its a small full bathroom so id like to do it floor to ceiling in tile ... idk if i have to durarock every wall to tile them or just the main shower space ..and use gypsum to tile on ... 🤷♂️..any clarity would greatly be appreciated ..its my first house and i wanna make it nice
We just got a bathroom remodel done and the contractor used KeraFlor unmodified thinset over durock boards which weren't taped at the seams. 12x24 porcelain tiles. Is this setup for failure?
Next is the tub alcove with durock as well and I'm trying to explain to them that alkali resistant tape, modified thinset is to be used to fill all the seams and then 2 layers of aquadefense. Will that at least keep the shower build intact?
That’s exactly what my kitchen floor looks like underneath. Previous home owner was a DIYer and half-assed a lot of work. Fortunately it’s a small house, but I have had to fix a lot of shoddy work.
Most helpful tile video I’ve seen, thank you.
Would like to request your opinion on issues I’m experiencing in my kitchen. My 1 year-old install has numerous hollow-sounding tiles, some grout bursting from seams, hairline grout cracks everywhere, some cracked tiles, and some tiles make a crunching sound under pressure.
I witnessed the install and confirmed correct mortar and trowel compatibility with the tile. 1/2” hardybacker mortared & screwed to plywood subfloor (2nd level of home), seams taped. At least 1/4” gaps between at all mating walls/cabinets.
Some tiles seem solid (but still with grout cracks), and noisy symptoms go away in the winter.
My theory - unlevel floor in some areas, not enough thinset in others, perhaps swirling trowel lines, and more expansion gaps needed? My current plan is to remove offending tiles, level mortar beneath, and reapply tiles.
Any insight would be appreciated. Best regards!
Sounds like the floor has failed completely, There are other possible causes that could have contributed to the failure of your floor, but those that you mentioned are all very possible. I would suggest replacing the entire floor. in my experience popping tiles and cementing them back down will not solve your problem and will be a never ending task as the floor continues to deteriorate. I would also evaluate the floor structure to be sure that it meets L/360 for porcelain tile, if it does not, replacing the tile will lead to another failure.
Thanks Sal very informative, thank you. Also had a question would you use latex thin set (as used to install wood floor on cement floor) on second floor. have wooden floor wanted to add latex thin set to apply 1/4" hardy back and then apply tile with latex thin set? I figure it more flexible to avoid cracking from if any movement. What do you think Thanks
You need to a modified thinset to install the backer board to a plywood subfloor and then use a modified thinset to install the tile.
Can you put backer board on top of asbestos tile? It's too costly to have it removed
Very good examples of what not to do and why. Gave my like.
😊👍
Thanks! I needed this. Very simple.
How long did it take for the tiles to loosen after the job was completed?
Darn - just recently watched this. Just finished a small marble tile bath room about 8 months ago. Screwed down the backer board to floor (many screws - deck screws) - did put seam tape / mortar at joints. Shoot - but it seems very solid and nothing has chipped or cracked or come loose yet.
My master bath - doing now is schluter and properly done (for the most part).
So natural stone need a floor with a deflection of L/720 or better, and with a double layer of plywood, plus the underlayment of choice, I prefer uncoupling membranes. Does this mean your floor will fail, well maybe, maybe not. Using proper methods and standards insures a long lasting trouble free installation, using improper methods put the install at risk, it does not mean it will certainly fail, but i does mean it increases the odds of a failure, the more the unapproved method deviates from a recognized method, the greater the chances of a failure. This means that some improperly installed tile will be certain to fail, others will have a varying percentage of failures depending on the circumstances and conditions of the install. So will your job fail at some point? No way to know, maybe it will, maybe it won't That is why it is best to follow TCNA guidelines, to insure success. I would at this point just wait and see, you may never have a problem, which is a reason why improper installs are still being done, not all of them fail, which leads the installer using improper methods to saying they have never had a problem doing it that way.
Can you use a tile adhesive instead of thin set on backer board and tiles on a floor?
one nice thing bout that type of installation is... It's a dream to demo....
Yeah and you can even resell the old tiles to make some of your money back XD
Doknow I would go there... maybe fill in a swiminpool or somethin.
LOL..
Friend of mine worked at one of the big law firms in Boston. They were replacing the large format tiles in the lobby areas. She befriended the tile guys and was able to tile her new townhouse with the “free” tiles they gave her from the demo.
what would you recommend as a subfloor for the installation of travertine 16x24inch. in an area of 288sqft. in a concrete slab of about 30 years with crack 1/8 of thickness in a Patio, which means that it is outdoor. Can I use cement board, Ditra (although I'm out of budget), fracture Ban from LATICRETE? redgard? If you have any email, I can send you some pictures of the slab
Great channel Sal thanks. I solely now use Shluter product for floors walls and countertops. The results are over the top as a pallet is created for the finished product. My Brother inlaw called me up and said the grout was cracking. on his floor tiling job . I went to have a look and found that he used zero thinnest to adhere shluter ditra to subfloor. He bought the ditra from a home improvement store. The sales person told him that you don't need to adhere the product to the subfloor. The mistake cost a small fortune. Note to the home handyman...certainly do your homework before tackling the job. Check out Sals videos, manufacture product videos. BTW shluters technical support team are second to none.
It is not enough to buy the best products, you still have to install them correctly to have a great install, as you know and as your Brother-in-law has now discovered.
I had a salesperson tell me that I don’t need to put anything under the durock.
do I have to put moisture barrier above the hardie board before using mortar for tiles
and for this diy it would be nice to explain what is abed of thin set?
Hello and thank you for the terrific video, very educational. Any suggestions or cautions about laying tile directly over 3/4" plywood subfloor? Is an underlayment a must? Cheers!
Never install tile directly to the subfloor, some kind of underlayment must be installed first. I would suggest an uncoupling membrane. Also be sure your floor is strong enough for tile ruclips.net/video/74BDTI67S1M/видео.html
I have a ply floor.
I was going to use backer board and also a decoupling matting on top of the backerboard.
IS that OK?
Hey Sal
You should to the house that now has a new tile install and jump up and down in the middle of the room and count the cracks and broken tiles. Those cracks in between the backer boards were massive. That floor is a trampoline.
I'm not a contractor and my dumbass figured this out when you missed it.
So you can tell if a floor is compliant just by looking at it, I measure the joists structure and unsupported span so i know whether it meets L/360 required for ceramic tile. You seem to be right about the Dumbass part.
That's what I did in 2009 and 2011 did my kitchen and two bathrooms. 1) Underlayment followed by (2) roof paper 30 weight stapled. (3) then thinset on roof paper before the (3) backer boards, screw these down. (4) tape all the seams and thinset these let dry. and applied thinset to place tiles. They are still holding great!! Of course back buttered the tiles.
Hello
I have a question what screws or nails you use hardiebacker over concrete? And also what type of gun or drill I use ?
Hi Sal
Thanks for the great videos and commentary.
Question for you in this case. Since no thinset was applied underneath the backboard, does that mean all the backerboard needs to redone?
And #2, if thinset was applied under the backboard and it was the thinset to tile connection that failed. Do you need to completely remove the old thinset stuck to the backerboard?
thanks
Regardless of whether thinset was applied under the board, you have to replace the board because the thinset used to set the tiles bonds to the board (even if tiles come up, the thinset has bonded to the board).
Can you use construction adhesive instead of mortar/thin set? My floor is a sub floor that is rock solid and very flat. I just yanked up the linoleum (very little glue underneath) and was about to put the 1/4 Hardy board in with the screws it goes with thinking that would be plenty to keep it stable. I guess I'll rethink this.
No big mistake, the mortar is a leveling bed to insure full contact of the board to eliminate all voids and possibility of movement, the construction adhesive does the exact opposite of what you want.
I had 2 layers of plywood but the floor was not level. Then I hired a carpenter to install self leveling compound. First we attached 1/2" Hardibackerboard with many screws. Then we poured selfleveler. There are a few ridges and several long hairline cracks in the concrete self leveler. My plan is to install uncoupling membrane before adding the tile. Do I need to rip the entire backerboard up & start over?!
Please advise.🤔
First mistake you made was hire a carpenter to do the self leveling, second mistake you made was attaching the backer board with screws without putting thinset under it. Did you tape the seams of the backer board? I would remove everything and start over, check your joist structure to see if it meets L/360 for ceramic tile, and start from there. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is usually a good idea to follow manufacturer recommendations.
Thank you so very much about how imperative it is to always thinset & tape before you backer board.
😊👍
Thanks for the positive information.
I have a wooden Bungalow and I was wondering if I can and if yes how to install ceramic tiles over wood for the bathroom...
This might be helpful ruclips.net/video/YpXEXqbh7ok/видео.html
I have a concrete floor that I have to level so self leveling compound vs hardie backer board?
I have 3 Season Square Log Cottage in Canadian climate (large garage area underneath), has OSB T&G flooring, so want to lay porcelain Italian tiles at high traffic entranceway (40sq ft). Do you recommend cement board or Schluter system as underlayment ? And thanks for very helpful tips/solid videos
I always use Schluter Ditra, much better job.
As you move south and west it gets worse. The only is it comes up easy. Heart breaks for people who trusted these individuals. It's how I got started 20 years ago doing a mryaid of repairs and finish sub par contractor work. I still learning the tile trade. Ahhh I only do very small jobs with research.
Thanks, this is very helpful, as I am about ready to lay a tile floor. Once the cement board is down with thin set should I also seal it with a latex primer sealer after taping and mortaring the joints?
No, just install your tile.
Thank you!
Another factor that comes into play is the fastening of the subfloor. Before laying the Durock, or any type of underlayment, SCREW down the plywood 12” on center. You’d be surprised how many sheets have nails that miss the joists, are spaced too far apart, and glue that is no longer bonded between the plywood and joists.
Good point.
Thanks for the video at my dads rental property the ceramic tile in the upstairs bathroom was coming up very easily because it was laid directly on the plywood subfloor I said it was a bad job whoever did it
Kevin Naderi you can lay tile on plywood but not with mortar you have to use tile adhesive! Its for laying tile to wood!
Our plywood is a level but has some nicks. Will the thinset under the backerboard be enough or do I need to add the self leveling stuff on it first?
Use a modified thinset applied with a ¼ inch by ¼ inch notched trowel, and those nicks or gouges will be neutralized
I want to put wonderboard on my concrete floor in my kitchen in Texas. I live in a townhome with a small kitchen . I have already pulled up 2 or 3 layers of vinyl flooring, mostly anyhow. I have already ripped out the pantry and took it to the dump only to find out that you can hardly find 27 " wide pantries. Have of my cabinets are out and I will remove everything because I want to put down wonderboard over thinset. MY question is. Since I am putting wonderboard over concrete, How am I to screw it down? I plan on putting down porcelan tile or ceramic on top of the wonderboard if I ever get this done.
Hello , great video.I'd love some advice. Im remodeling my kitchen and laying tile and hired a remodeler. The plywood is laid and the cement board is nailed right on top nothing in between. No glue no nothing. That was done today. As we walk across the floor theres some place where the floor feels wobbly or as if it sinks. I was told that that dosent matter cause on top will go a layer of cement. Is that normal ?
First thing that should have been done is to check the deflection of the floor by looking at the joist structure. here is a video ruclips.net/video/74BDTI67S1M/видео.html If the deflection is good, then should see if the subfloor is in good condition and the correct thickness and suitable for a tile floor installation. That being good, the cement board should be installed according to manufacturer recommendations, which includes a leveling bed of mortar under the cement board to support the board and fill all voids here is a link to Durock installation guide, www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_Marketing_Communications/united_states/product_promotional_materials/finished_assets/usg-durock-cement-board-with-edgeguard-installation-guide-en-CB237EG.pdf other brands basically have the same requirements. Cement board has no structural value, if the tell you it will stiffen the floor, it does not.
I'm planning a tile floor on an existing subfloor of diagonal 1x8 subfloor common in older homes. Thought of using e.g. liquid nails. Now I understand that Hardie recommends a continuous thinset to place the Hardie board on. My subfloor has gaps you can see through. Should I try to put down e.g. Red Guard under the thinset and then apply the Hardie board? House is 1960s vintage. I'm tearing up the old floor/sub straight ... particle board and vinyl. I'm planning on 1/2" Hardie board as base and to bring finished floor level w/ other parts of the house.
You can't put cement board directly on dimensional plank subfloor, you need to install a layer of 1/2" plywood first, then the board. If height will become an issue, use 1/4 cement board instead, if you are still too high, use an uncoupling membrane over the plywood, which would be a much better job anyway.
thanks much for the reply. Much appreciated. I'll likely switch and deal w/ the height while using 1/4". My proposal for 1/2" cement board was to try to create a stable base. What is an "uncoupling membrane"? Red Guard, e.g.?
Thanks Sal , Question , I'm going to be installing 1/4 Hardie backer this weekend , thin set and tape the seams , kitchen floor , I have my hardie board stored in my garage , this weekend the temp is single digit should I let the board get to room temp before thin setting and screwing it down ? will it affect the mortor setting process ? thanks .
Yes, always ambient temperature for all materials.
Hi Sal, can you install Durock on concrete floors? If so, are you only required to use thin-set under the Durock or do you also need to fasten the Durock to the concrete floor using the proper fastener?
No
would adding an uncoupling membrane over cement backer board prevent cracking? I notice they encourage one or the other but why cant you use both cement backer board and uncoupling membrane as well?
Pointless to use both, cement board has no structural value, so adding it gains nothing if you use an uncoupling membrane.
Thank you for your detail explanation.
You are welcome!
Would I need to put a layer of thin set on backer board that's being placed over an older vinyl tile floor that;s glued to concrete?
Yes
Thinset under cement board makes sense but what happens when you want to update the tile? I’m getting ready to do my bathroom and I want to do it right but I am concerned about any future updates.
Thanks so much for the videos.
You install the tile according to proper standards and methods, Rip out is not a concern, that will be dealt with when and if the time comes.
Most floor failures are because of floor deflection...no amount of bedding, thinset, taping or troweling will stop deflection. As a licensed contractor in several states I can tell you that L/360 is the minimum for tile work, especially in large areas, and I would suggest pulling a string line across a floor in several places and directions to see the existing deflection... if there is already existing deflection, then sister up the joists and fix them...without minimizing deflection, all else is simply wasted effort.
Any tile install worth his salt knows about L/360, there is actually an app to figure that out, no need to pull a string, wich will only tell you how much the floor is out of plain. Get a TCNA handbook, if you need to know how it us supposed to be done.
Watch out for inferior subfloor. Some builders cheap out on it, don’t use enough fasteners, and overspan the decking sheet goods
I like to check things out with a good ol anckle bouce. Been in some nice houses that are springy out in the middle of the greatrm.
One more question for you. Some contractors say to put latex primer sealer on the subfloor before mortaring the hardie board to the subfloor, is this really necessary? Thanks in advance. I just want to make sure this job is done and done right because I don’t want to pull it up in a few years because it’s breaking up.
The guy doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. The thinset is a leveling bed for the backer board, it is there to give full support the the board so there are no voids, the sealer does nothing to help this.
Great informative video.
you mentioned you could use roofing nails to secure the backboard to the subfloor... obvivoly with thinset too. is that right? roofing nails? i wanted to confirm since i have a whole box of nails i could use for this project.
Yes galvanized roofing nails are just fine. Here is an installation guide, pdf.lowes.com/howtoguides/081099032585_how.pdf
I've been tiling for 22 years now. Just started watching all the tiling videos on RUclips about 2 months ago. I like these videos. I was into some of StarrTiles videos until I came to the one explaining why he wouldn't use mortar under his backerboard. And that's where he lost me. Before there was a few other things I disagreed with, but those things were opinionated so I let them slide. But that dude is telling people that there is no reason to glue the board down. I was like really man? Anyways thanks to people in his comment sections I found your videos. Lol
Welcome to the light side. 😀
Great video! I’m installing 12x24” porcelain tiles in my bathroom. I have 3/4” OSB subfloor. Is this thick enough to lay cement board or do I need to add more plywood before putting down the cement board? I keep hearing that the subfloor needs to be 1-1/4” total but I don’t know if that includes the cement board thickness or not.
Includes the tile which is usually half inch. How did it turn out boss
@@FromTheHood2TheWoods - I ended up going with Blanke Permat underlayment sheets instead of cement board. It was more expensive, but I think it provided a stronger surface to lay the tile on. The sheets were very easy to cut/install and it seems to be pretty solid. I guess time will tell, but I’m happy with the results so far.
I want to install tile over a floor that has 5/8 particle board over top 7/16 plywood over a ventilate crawl space. This is not the OSB chip board, but the very fine particle board. The particle board is in good shape, no swelling or water damage. Is there a good way to start prepping my tile base without adding a layer of plywood over the particle board? I am nervous about applying thinset directly to particle board, 'cause I know the staff does not react well to water.
Particle board has to come out, it has no place in a tile assembly, no ifs ands or buts.
You the man! Thanks!
Thank you, love video, doing my first tiling job
Glad it was helpful!
I am installing new kitchen cabinets and plan on using 24"X6" tile for countertop. Do you think a single sheet of 3/4" (good grade) and 1/4" BackerBoard with Thin set in between is adequate substrate for time choice? Small kitchen only about 26 square feet total countertop? Thank you! You are awesome!
No, I would use a double layer of plywood, 3/4" plus 1/2" then the backer board or an uncoupling membrane. Or you can use a thick foam board like Kerdi-Board as your substrate.
Sal DiBlasi Sal, that is exactly guidance i needed! Definitely will use backer-board or the other product for substrate (Is it sold in big box lumber stores i.e. Home Depot or Lowe’s?). My struggle has been if 3/4” was adequate which big box employees said yes but wasn’t comfortable or confident in what they where telling me - my reason for reaching out to you! I will feel much better knowing need to include sheet of 1/2” plywood on top of 3/4”! I know you’re busy but one more question; Does the 2 sheets of plywood need to be good quality BC (or whatever is smooth on one side) or like expensive smooth cabinet grade plywood i.e. oak, maple, etc.?
Sal,
Thank you so much for your quick and professional response with info i know i can trust!!!
Allen Portman
Houston, Texas
I'm want to install a tile floor in my breezeway. The subfloor is a concrete slab. I took the old tile up and there is a thin layer old black mastic. I don't want to scrape that stuff up because I herd it may have asbestos in it. I was thinking of putting a layer hardiebacker down and then tile. Do you think the thinset will bond to the old black mastic?
The mortar under the backer board is a leveling bed, essentially that means it is there to fill all the voids between the subfloor and the backer board to insure there is no movement between the two. The board is held in place by the fasteners. That being said, you can use Mapei Eco Prim Grip amzn.to/2U9bYLS to coat the black adhesive, which is probably CutBack adhesive. The Prim grip will bond to the black adhesive and give you a suitable surface to install your underlayment in preparation for your tile. Here is an article about Cutback inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Floor_Tile_Mastic_Asbestos.php
What do you use on concrete floors
Hi Sal! Planning on redoing our master bath. What's your thoughts on DIYers? Any tips on where to find the right info without having to hire a contractor/handyman? I'm a handyman myself, just need the right info and direction.
My RUclips channel, many tutorials
Great video, thank you!
Glad you liked it!
Can anybody think of a reason I shouldn't use Kerdi-band to seal up my 1/4 hardiebacker floor seams? I have quite a bit left over from a previous project. Thanks for any input.
I have a concrete floor section that needs to be tiled. I have removed the existing tile however I need the base layer ot be raised, I wanted to put cement board on the concrete (with thinset of course) in order to get the additional 1/4 inch in height that i need to match up to another flooring height at a different room. Is it okay to put cement board on concrete? If not, what are my options for getting the extra build up in height?
No, use a self leveler.
Thanks for the video. Do i still have to use backerboard im already using ditra. Thanks sal
No, ditra re[laces the backer board.
Thanks for this info!!
No problem!
Are there any videos or pictures of what tiles look like underneath when removed from a job that has been done correctly?
Sure ruclips.net/video/nY3WSe08n2M/видео.html
i just pulled up the old tile floor in the master bath. built in 2007 16 x 16 tiles I am thanking God they didnt glue the old 1/4 board. Something to think about, on the fence about gluing the backer.
If you want to risk failure don't follow manufacture recommendations and TCNA guidelines, what could possibly go wrong.
@@SalDiBlasi Sal, tell me the reason behind gluing down backer board. not being sarcastic, i just dont know the reason why you would. i love your videos
Hi Sal, I'm doing a small tile for my bathroom. The subfloor is not completely leveled,can I use self leveling compound, then, backer board or just straight tiles over self level compound?
Depends on the type of leveler, Look into this www.ardexamericas.com/product/ardex-liquid-backerboard/
First time tile job I didn't put a thin set under my hard back I don't have a problem now it's been 3 years but I'm seeing small cracks in my tile it's a mat tile witch every piece is about 2x2 and a few have cracks it's not good tile my wife walks on it with high heels I don't know if that's it or not. Question should I tear out the tile also I used Omni glue I've read some bad reports. What to do?
Your floor is failing due to improper installation. Your decision on what you should do, but if you decide to replace it, do some research and know what you need to do.
Isn't there a self-leveling compound that tile installers use before putting down the ditra or backer board?
Plenty of self levelers out there, if you are doing ditra it will go down first, if you are doing cement board, then you will have to do it after.
Hey Sal I'm installing 1/2" wonderboard over 2 sheets of 1/2" overlapped OSB sheathing. I don't feel comfortable installing wet thinset under the wonderboard to the OSB. If I nailed 30lb felt over the OSB protecting it from moisture and then installed the thinset and wonderboard with screws every 6". Do you see any harm in that? Also I'm installing 400 sq. ft. of 10"x47" plank tile.
Wonderboard requires the leveling bed of thinset when installed on a floor, not doing that goes against what they say, modifying that goes against what they say, they are very clear about it, as are all the manufacturers of similar products. There is no reason to use 1/2" on the floor instead of the 1/4", Cement board has no structural value so using the 1/2" has no benefit unless you need the height. If you want to modify the application, it is best to contact the manufacturer, if they say yes, then you are good to go, if they say no, then proceed at your own risk.
Thanks for the fast response.
Hi from Maine, Another informative video, thanks! My 15 x 15 ceramic-tiled kitchen floor failed after 2 years. It has a 12-foot jagged crack across the floor. The installer did NOT put thin-set under the tile. Could that have caused such a drastic result?
Sorry, under the hardie backerboard!
Sorry, under the backerboard.
yes it could, but if he skipped that important step, he probably cut a lot of corners which i would imagine all contributed to the failure.
This floor failed because of failing to seal the seams and lack of thinset. My floor I just recently took up had been down for 20 years over 2 sheets of 23/32 plywood and was uneven. The tile was installed directly over plywood and only 1 small crack by the side door and the stairs outside of the kitchen.
Hi i want to remove carpet in my living room and install tile or stone my house is water floor heating so in order for the tile to stay firm does not get crack later i want to install backer board and use tap so i should use thinset than backer board and then thinset and tile on the top please correct me if i wrong thanks
Is your subfloor plywood or concrete? if you have underfloor heating an uncoupling membrane is probably a better option.
Hi Sal, Love your videos and I really appreciate all the information you give.
I’m about to tile a wet room in our en-suite and have been looking into tile backer boards. I have been advised to just screw 6mm backer boards straight onto 6mm plywood over the joists. I was then going to tank the whole area...
Now after watching this video I’m having serious doubts!
What do you recommend using to stick the tape down on the seams of the cement board?
What about the tanking? Is that still required for the floor?
I was advised by another contractor to add more noggins for support and to just use 18mm plywood on the joists and then just tank the whole area and tile over the top?!
Thanks in advance for any advice!! 😊
I am guessing you are in the UK, so what you do there may be different to what is recommended here, however as far as I know the 6mm plywood is way to thin, probably equivalent to 1/4" plywood which has no structural value, Backer board should always be installed on a bed of thinset mortar, never set dry and screwed. I am also guessing a "Noggin" is a joist, can't tell you what you need to do there, here the joist structure has to meet L/360 deflection to be suitable for porcelain tile. l/720 for natural stone. Minimum plywood thickness is 3/4" subfloor then an appropriate tile underlayment like a backer board or an uncoupling membrane should be installed. here is a link to The ditra handbook, to help you wrap your head around the requirements for an uncoupling membrane, backer boards will have similar requirements sccpublic.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/sys-master/images/h71/h71/8858545389598/DITRA%20Installation%20Handbook.pdf
Here is a video to help you understand Deflection requirements. Again this is all for the US. What is acceptable in your country might be different. ruclips.net/video/74BDTI67S1M/видео.html
Thanks for the reply. Yes I’m in the UK. A noggin here is what you might call a sister joint. I was going to install additional sister joints to screw the ply and backer board into to help with stabilisation.
The en-suite that I’m tiling is only small, 6 foot x 6 foot square so not a large area. So if I use 3/4” ply and then thinset with 1/4” backer board, would this be sufficient?
Also, I’m tanking the whole room with a waterproof membrane called Aquaseal.
So after I lay the backer boards and seal the joints with alkali resistant joint tape, is it okay to go over those joints with the Aquaseal waterproof tanking tape prior to the Aquaseal waterproof membrane?
Thanks again!!
The 3/4" plywood and 1/4" backer board are good, the deflection still has to be correct no matter the size of the room.
Thanks again Sal!! 👍 Appreciated!
Would liquid nails heavy duty rated for cement and wood spread with v notch then screwed hold? It seems like it would but i am not 100% which is why i ask
Do not use anything other than the recommended products, the thinset is not for adhesion as much as it is to have a leveling bed to fully support the cement board.
Do you have to use modify or unmodified thin set t between backer board and sub floor hx
Can be a low quality modified mortar.
Do you put anything under the thinset or right on subfloor? Still use same amount of screws even with thinset?
Thinset is just a supporting bed, the screws hold the board in place.
what if your concrete floor dosent have plastic under it, will it sweat? if so can plastic be applied during tile installation?
Prime the floor and tile it (when its not the wet area).
We have just replaced our kitchen floor and adding tile. The tile itself is like 36" long and 9" wide. I have one piece that will not set. One end of it seems to not dry. Pulled that piece up and scraped the stuff off it and cement board and redid. Still taking forever to dry. Can't figure out why.
What adhesive are you using to set the tile?