Should Backerboard Go Over The Tile Flange Or Up To It?
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- Опубликовано: 29 фев 2020
- I constantly get two questions or comments about tiling shower or bathtub alcoves. One is about how cement backerboard should be installed in relation to a bathtub or shower base tile flange, also called a "lip." Does the backerboard go over the lip or up to it? The second question is about "taping" the seams of backerboard in a shower with mesh tape and thinset. What is the purpose of that and is it necessary? In this video I'll answer both of these questions and show you my methods.
UPDATE: To answer a question that has come up about tiling over the area of the lip I made this video: • How To Tile Over The L...
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amzn.to/38csu0v (self-adhesive flashing) 
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27 years in the trade, never thought about using protecto wrap to flash the tube, Excellent idea!!! Learn something new every day. Thanks
These days I actually prefer the Zip system stretchy tape because it conforms to almost any profile, but it's the same idea.
This flashing idea is freaking GENIUS!!! You’re the only one I’ve seen do this!!! THANK YOU!!!!! 👏👏👏
Yep. I don't trust using silicone between the CBU and tub flange. The flashing is a great idea that I have used. Also, placing the flashing on the floor near the tub.
This is nothing new. Old school carpenters use to use pc of metal flashing before peel n stick. Carpenters know 🤣
Dude... I've watched 100 videos. You literally have the only video that actually spoke about shimming walls to meet tub, why you cant shim wall because rest of room is 5 foot etc. As if a normal person was going through the thought process. Nice job man. Its not a perfect world and this is great.
Your video has answered all the questions I had.
I love the way you answered all the questions that a diy person would encounter in a real life situation.
Great video 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Incredible amount of insight and experience. Remodeling is nothing but compromise. Thank you for the effort and useful information.
Thank you for explaining I was having this issue and no one at home depot was able to help😏. I appreciate your real life scenario. I took all the helpful tips as well. 😁
13:56 - exactly and it's your insight into what "the real world" looks like is quite valuable. Many times I see videos on RUclips of how to DIY a project and it turns out perfectly because the channel carefully edits out all of the mistakes, compromises and "real world" conditions they had to work around. For the longest time I thought I was the only one dealing with these imperfections. Hearing a professional talk about this at this level of detail is fantastic.
Yes, the real world is messy and full of surprises. I often say that remodeling is a series of compromises.
I have done many tub surrounds over a 25 year period. This methodology is sound and very well explained.
Bravo, bravo, bravo!!! Soooo thorough!! You answered every single question I've ever had about tiling over a tub. I am ready to get started. Thank you so much!!
Excellent! Real world is where we live so I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts, reasoning, and methods! 👍
Thanks. Exact issue I’m having with my remodeling . Subscribed
Great video, my walls were far enough out of plumb I was considering shimming with 1/4 backerboard, then adding a second 1/4 inch sheet to bring my plane to the same level as the existing drywall. Originally I had the first shim layer going right up to the flange, then the second went over the flange, but I am going to incorporate your flashing idea now.
Thank you again
I did my shower almost exactly like you did yours. I’ve only done a few showers in my life time but I do some research first and they’ve all turned out great. Thanks for the video.
Extreme words of wisdom: "Remodeling often means compromsing and making judgement calls."
And a whole lot of cursing at times.
Nicely done video. Great explanation on how to overcome various issues. Your self adhesive flashing idea is damn near genius. Never seen that before.
This is the first video I've seen that deals with real life remodeling issues. Provided amazing hacks to address every issue I've encountered over the years. Thank you so much. I suscribed to your channel.
This is the best video I have seen and I have watched a lot, you have answered most of my questions.
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm in"the real world" with you.
Wow, awesome video! Installing a tub -> shower pan conversion and you answered all the questions I had.
Kinda feel like you gave away a lot of secrets!
Thanks!
Thanks for the thorough explanation. Very well reasoned. Appreciate the extra steps in ensuring a lasting waterproof installation.
The video that keeps on giving. Love your common sense approach and "Real World" insights. this is the most helpful video I've watched after a complete gut of the bathroom. Thank you!
You sir are a hero! All I see is your hand in the video and I want to shake it for such a through tutorial.
Triple thanks for the flashing idea! Have a job this week in an old home bathroom remodel where this will work like a charm.
Really great explanations, super clear, to the point, and concise. Thank you for taking the time to explain how things work "in the real world"
Finally a video that explains these things! So helpful for a DIY’er like myself. Great tips here!
I actually shimed all my walls and had the cement board proud of the tub. Every other video showed it flush so i thought i was screwed. Thank you for explaining the concept so now i know it's actually a good thing! I also used the water proof tape thanks to this video, what a great idea! Thank you for this fantastic resource!
Great video. I'm doing my bathroom and after removing the old tub, cut out just enough drywall to get the new tub in. My bathroom layout and ceiling height would mean cutting out and replacing an enormous amount of drywall in order to fir out the studs to ride over the flange. Not happening. It's so important to live in the real world when doing this stuff.
Finally found a video explaining the lip!!!! I've done millions of fiberglass shower stalls it's packing that gap with hot mud and flat taping around the whole stall. But that procedure does not require or have tile. Thanks for the video!
Man oh man, after about 20 other videos, you answered my question about stopping at the flange or going over it! Thank you.
You sir, are a true craftsman
Great idea with the self adhesive window flashing behind the hardie and over the tub flange thanks !
Good stuff here. Thanks for the info mate, much appreciated!
I would love to see a video on tiling the front of an alcove drop in tub. Your video was exactly what I was looking for and extremely helpful and detailed. Thank you
I have a few videos on tiling shower walls and the process is identical. The only difference is that you need a method of transitioning at the edge. A bullnose edge tile is one option, using a marble top (in sections) is another. Either way I would recommend using the Schluter Kerdi membrane underneath to waterproof the surround.
Thank you!
Thanks for a very useful explanation. As the "repair guy" in my home, professional videos like this save me from disaster or redoing the job.
I like your water proofing method around the tub flange. Good insurance.
Excellent video. I'm right in the midst of this job and you've answered all of my questions.
Hello John, i am a DYI'er. Really appreciate the practical discussion about imperfect installation conditions such as wall studding, and moisture control between walls beyond the cement hardieboard, and the sheetrock interface. The self adhesive plastic flashing with a 3 foot plastic skirt seems like a good idea too. Maybe that hot mop and custom shower pan isn't necessary for a good seal!
Amen brother!
Love all your videos, they have been helpful in my bathroom remodel. Just curious, when you install your backer board for the flooring, do you put modified thin set on top of the self adhesive flashing where the bottom of the tub meets the plywood floor before installing the backer board? Thank you! Have a nice day and keep with the helpful realistic videos.
I'm not certain I follow your question. So, if I'm using 1/4" backerboard (hardibacker is what I use and recommend) on the floor, the hardibacker gets screwed down to the plywood. Before I put the backerboard down, though, I've installed the tub or pan and I like to use some kind of protection at the edge of that tub or pan so that future moisture doesn't create rot. I think that's where your question arises? Now I fully realize that hardibacker is recommended to be installed with thinset over the plywood and then screws. However, I don't do it that way for a number of reasons. I skip the thinset and just use screws. In my experience this does allow for a slight decoupling effect, so that the wood underneath can expand and contract while the hardibacker is less affected. The screws will move with the wood but still allow the tile and backerboard to stay put. This is a very modest decoupling effect, but real. Skipping the thinset also avoids waviness or bubbling that can develop as you try to screw down the backerboard while also walking on it. And I do think about the next guy down the line trying to remove this stuff! I have installations two decades old done in this manner with no issues.
Back to your question--if you choose to put down the backerboard with thinset you can go right over whatever you've put down at the edge of the tub and no harm is done. Screws will be the only real fastener in that area, though, since the thinset won't adhere to the plastic or flashing very well. Or, you can adopt my method.
enduringcharm Yes thank you! You answered my question perfectly, i was worried I didn’t ask it right. I was going to do traditional, subfloor-> thinset->backerboard->thinset/tile, but your method is very interesting and I may do that now. Thanks again so much, very helpful. 🤙🏽
Your the best I’ve seen on utube. Your experience is easy to see and you explain the job fantastic.
Enjoyed the vid, removing a bathtub and installing a shower pan in my Mama's house, will def use window flashing, which I didn't even consider, loved your other vid with the "Mortar poop", haven't received the pan yet (Dreamline), will refer to your vids until the project is complete. Thanks for the hard work!
Awesome video. You covered every aspect I had questions about. Definitely the most productive 16 minutes of my project.
What a great and educational video! So detailed and such logical non-standard tips for tough situations. Thank you so much!
WOW !! I just love your teaching. Is so artículo used. And so we’ll detailed explained. I’ve learned about 6 months just in one of your videos. Thank you 🙏.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks so much, appreciate the sage advice. I am putting up my shower walls either tomorrow or Thursday. Wish me luck.
Great video putting tile above shower surround wasn't sure about backer board and lip also like use of flashing Thanks
Good advice for the flange to wall board seam......I ALWAYS use 6" self adhesive sheathing/flashing too!....still working off the 67 foot roll I bought about 4 months ago 😊..... that's a lot more tubs/pans I can get out of it!!
We are remodeling our bathroom. First timers and beginners! Love your videos! So informative! Please tell me you have a link to the next step of the actual tiling onto the backboard and shower base. 🙏🏻
I have a whole playlist of 40 videos about bath remodeling! Probably something there to float your boat: ruclips.net/p/PLD4oAOZqK9mCjvmw_nUkZBrPPXf_20Lad
Excellent explanation on how and why to do it this way!
Great job!!! Alot of thought put into your method.
Thank you so much doing my first tile shower surround. This helped in the questions I had
You answered a lot of my questions. Great, great video. Thanks!
Building a shrine to this dude. Echoing everyone else, this video is the best out there for any shower bath install. I’m sure the manufacturers hate that you tell us all these tricks, but damn I just spent $70 on z flashing for the lip and now I know I’ll never need that again!
I just had this question in my head and your video popped up. So helpful thanks 😊
very helpful informative video, well done, thank you
Great video, like how you address all the limitations, personally I like using pl marine thru hull behind my mesh tape and at the base. Might be adding your flashing step. I do a lot of glass doors on completion (wayfair). Point being if you go over the flange and don't address the wall being plumb you end up with a lot more mud behind the tile and that affects how many courses you can set.
I stopped installing shower doors several years ago because the quality had become so poor. From bad designs to manufacturing flaws, I was spending too much time trying to make bad products work. Now I have homeowners work with a local glass company for custom doors. The quality is better and any concerns about fit are gone.
doesnt the flashing around the base of the tub affect the flooring installation?
@sunny meadows You mean the flashing or plastic installed under the edge of the tub apron? No, that's very thin. The backerboard is installed over the flashing. Then the tile is adhered to the backerboard. The flashing is just there to prevent weeping moisture from rotting out the floor over time.
A fantastic video! You covered every question I had in mind…. Thank you very much!
Great video, taught me a lot.
This was great! THANK YOU!
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge
I usually fill with mortar then do membrane over that, either kerdi or Redford or ardex 8+9. Havent had a call back yet lol
Brilliant video new sub keep me busy in lockdown
Awesome video thank you!
Thoughts on wet shimming between the backer board and the studs?
I see there's another well known youtuber suggesting this practice. Look, I'm a general contractor who does remodeling, repairs, restorations and sometimes new construction. I'm not just a tile guy. Naturally I'll have a different perspective and different experience than somebody who specializes in tile. I've worked on houses from the 1750s on up to the present day, and every year I do a variety of work from kitchens and baths, to repairing rot, to repairing or replacing framing, to siding and exterior trim, to fine finish work and more. Would I apply thinset to studs as a means of shimming out backerboard or Kerdiboard? No. Could that technique work? In the short term I'm sure it may, in the long term I would be concerned about repeated seasonal wood movement causing gaps or delamination (for lack of a better word) between the wood and the thinset. This is, after all, what happens with plaster walls and ceilings when the keys begin to break off from wood lathe. And, frankly, no self-respecting carpenter would choose that route anyway. I use tapered wood shims, cedar shingles, plywood strips and the like to shim when appropriate and I screw through the backerboard and the shims for a solid connection.
On the other hand, if there are SLIGHT undulations in the backerboard after installation (perhaps an 1/8" or so) then I will use thinset on the tile side of the backerboard to smooth and flatten the surface. That can be done in advance and allowed to dry, or it can be accomplished by using a thicker layer of thinset and applying it to both the tile and the wall so that tile height adjustments are possible.
About to do this job. Your flashing trick is genius.
Well articulated discussion. And all that takes time of course.
With regards to the backer board and flang. I usually fill that gap with thin set as a filler and skim it flush with my trowel/taping knife. The tile ends up covering it while also sitting on something firm. Thanks for the flashing tip. Great video.
I actually have a whole video on that subject: ruclips.net/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/видео.html
Thank you for this video it has provided a great deal of helpful information for someone just learning to do home Reno’s.😊
That’s what I’m talking about - all these videos this guy, The Real Deal 👍🏼🥩🥓
Very well explained I was gona put shims but hard to skim half inch and hide it. Thank you
Great video got one question.
When I tile down to the tub do I just fill the void below the backer board with thin set and do you ever tile directly to the base or do you leave a quarter inch or so for silicone in case of tub movement?
See this video: ruclips.net/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/видео.html
Using good judgment. That's when the experience comes in. Nice.
When you read all those instructions from the MFG. It is always under ideal conditions. Even new construction has butchered lumber that is not all true in size and level. Now you do a remodel after the house has settled some. As he said I work in the real world. Great video, thanks.
Very timely video. I am just starting a bathroom gut and just removed the tile and tub. Tons of great tips. I only have one tip of my own from experience. Don't trust the oring in the tub spout. In both of my bathrooms in the tub spouts a couple of years apart the orings failed. I had cleaned of the copper and chamfered the ends so it didn't nick the orings. The oring did fail after a few years and the water travelled back and down the opening in the tile and thru the ceiling of my renovated kitchen. Now when I install a tub spout I silicone the opening as best I can around the copper where it comes out of the tile.
Do you mean where the spout is attached to the copper stub coming out of the wall? There are some styles which push on, much like a shark bite style coupling. Those have O-rings. The style I prefer requires a male threaded fitting to be soldered on to the pipe stub, then the spout is threaded onto the fitting using teflon tape. I will also seal the opening around the pipe with silicone before installing the spout.
@@enduringcharm 1 Moen tub spout and the other was a Delta. Both had the slip on spout with orings. No where for the water to go when the spout was in shower position so it seemed to shoot back thru the hole in the tile.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that style. I use a lot of Moen faucets, but the ones I use have the screw on style spout. Possibly the pipe was a little short on your installation and the O-ring couldn't seal? I don't know. Caulking where the pipe comes through the wall is good practice, though.
Very well done video. Your experience serves your clients well.
Grats on how you protected the tub!
That stuff is awesome. It's sold as carpet and flooring protection, but I've used it as protection in bathrooms and kitchens. Some brands have a more aggressive adhesive than others, so always test before you lay it over something important.
The protecto part is genius. I'm glad I found this video!
Lately I've been favoring Zip System Stretch Tape, which easily conforms to curves and sticks tenaciously.
Thank you John I will do this tomorrow.🖤🖤🖤🖤❣😎
Wow, great detail and amazing knowledge/experience...thank you!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience
Do you use any silicone between the flashing/lip and backer board, or does the backer board sit on top of the flashing/lip?
As I showed in the video, the backer may go over the lip or it may have to sit on top of the lip depending on the circumstances. Since I install flashing I do not use silicone sealer until after the tiling is done.
One of the more informative videos I’ve seen on a remodel situation. My question is, on the method you just showed, how far do you set the tile above the actual tub. It appears there is a small portion of the flange exposed, do you apply thin set below the the backer board in that gap and will it adhere to the exposed flange? Thank you.
You do apply thinset in the flange area, but it is more for back-support to prevent tile cracking than for adhesion to the wall. The first row of tile is adhered to the backerboard over most of it's area, but the section of tile overlapping the flange is not really adhered to anything. The gap between the edge of the tile and the tub surface is the same as your grout line elsewhere, but that gap is filled with a silicone or color-matched tile caulk.
Excellent question!
Great info. Very informative. Thanks!
very awesome explanation I am facing right now. Great job, thanks
This is a great video, this is the first time I have seen this method and I really like it.
I’m 43 and I’ve helped out with several bathrooms as a kid. I’ve actually been helping with one this month. I remember the days where you’d simply put up hardi backer and tile, and the work would last for ever. Especially with preventative maintenance as well as normal maintenance.
But now a days, this type of work has been made to be so critical. I don’t know if peoples work has gotten sloppier (fast work for fast money), or if water isn’t what it used to be (joking), but now I see people going as far as roofing paper > cement board > tape & mud > red guard > hot mop > tile.
Seems like overkill for a job which if done correctly, shouldn’t need all of that.
And the interesting thing is that generally when showers / tubs have any sort of water seeping through, it’s usually in an area where preventative maintenance should have been done.
You're correct about much of this, and I don't disagree. I've taken apart 60-70 bathrooms in my career, and almost none of them had water damage in the main "field" of tile. And back in the day they just put up "green board" drywall. If there is damage, it is located where the tile meets the tub because the caulk was not maintained, or the edge of the tub on the floor where water seeped in over a period of years. The reason waterproofing is an obsession these days is due to marketing efforts by companies who sell waterproofing products. For my work, I concentrate on protecting the areas where I have seen damage over the years, which is the edge of the tub or pan on the floor and the area where the tile meets the tub or pan.
This is an awesome tip, brother. Thanks for making the video
Great video. Thanks for taking the time to make it. What does one do if you're not installing tile over the backerboard?
If you don't want to do tile, you can choose a shower enclosure instead, which are typically made of acrylic or fiberglass. Those are attached directly to the studs, however.
Well explained! Good idea to use that waterproof blueskin-type material stuck to the shower pan.
Love this. Subscribed!
Wow! So informative in only 15 min!!! Thank you sir
Thank you so much...We have dealt with these questions in our home remodels, and never really had anyone answer to our satisfaction. You did! One question: you mentioned the waterproof quality of the Hardibacker brand backer board...what are your thoughts about USG Durock brand? Is it as "waterproof", so that no further waterproofing is essential (except in the corners as you mentioned)?
I really need to make a video on this subject. This obsession with waterproofing is fed by marketing departments not reality. Tile is waterproof. Grout that has been sealed will also shed water, at least until the third teenager in your house gets into the shower. What I worry more about is movement in the framing, missing grout or caulk, or other damage. That's why I use the flashing beneath the backer. As for Durock, I'm not a fan. I like Hardibacker because it is stiffer than other brands and not crumbly or porous. It just makes for a more secure installation.
Awesome work!
Thank you for saying ideally the hardibacker would go over the lip. I had measured for that and then saw some videos saying backing should be above the lip. I thought I'd have to cut an inch off each piece again
I had to do a repair couple years ago where the contractor installed the backer board such that the bottom row of tiles fell directly on top of the tub lip so half the tile widths were just hanging over the lip without touching the tub surface....it looked like hell. Fortunately there were 2 things in my favor: the bottom row wasn't full height because the guy cut them in half to sit on the lip and there was a full box of spare tiles in the garage. I carefully removed the bottom row of tiles sitting on the lip. Then I used my angle grinder to remove about half the thickness of 30 new tiles about half way up their full height. When I installed the new tiles they reached all the down to the tub surface because the material that would have prevented that was removed by the grinder. I then caulked the tile to the tub as usual and you would never know how badly the guy screwed up the install. So the bottom line is even if the backer board wasn't installed properly you may not have to rip it out or shim it to get a great tile job. There are ways around other people's incompetence.
Hi, nice video. I am about to start installing my first tray. Useless at DIY. Do I install the shower tray first and fix to the exposed frame wood and then put up the plasterboard and go down to the tray, or fully put up the plasterboard to the ground behind the tray? ty
Well, you should not be using plasterboard or drywall at all in the shower alcove. You'll use cement backerboard such as hardibacker, or one of the proprietary backer products. As far as the order, the shower pan will be installed first then the backer.
@@enduringcharm Ty.
Just the information I needed. Thank you!
I have a mess in my shower! My house has two level. The original builder of my house has the brilliant idea to build the shower drain on the top of floor stud support; they cut the stud to make possible the elbow PVC can connect with the pan and drain system and never seal under the exit under the wood floor with shower pan flange. LEAKING TIME! First time, I let him know is a leaking he don't do nothing until a mold came out drywall. So, my husband take "care" and he did a ______ job!!! Coulking time!. Today, 2022 second time same problem. This time I will take care!! this will be my 7th project around the house. This is the best video that I found!!! The extra effort to do a long-lasting job it's worth it because the reality of life is that a lot of house owner like my husband thing that the house will take care by itself!! Thanks!
The roof flashing is brilliant 😊
Thanks for the shared expertise. I appreciate it. What about where the drywall meets the backer board? Should we prime the paint 1st, or will the tile adhere to the drywall mud?
Tile should NOT be used on top of the drywall compound alone. It will fail. After you have finished sanding the transition apply at least two coats of primer. I use Zinsser 123. Then let the primer cure, which is a step some people forget to observe. The thinset will stick just fine to cured primer, and most of the tile will be adhered to bare backerboard anyway. I also apply the finish paint before tiling, but that's a personal choice.
@@enduringcharm yup that makes good sense. Thank you!
Real world here......real good advise!! Thanks
Awesome video. What would you do if the backer board is already installed (ie can’t get behind it to place the flashing)? Is it important enough that you’d uninstall the backer board and start over or is there another good option?
It would depend on the circumstances, but if the backerboard is up and the transition to the drywall is not yet spackled it wouldn't be that much trouble to remove the backerboard and install some flashing. If that's too much, I would at least use the kerdi membrane over the corners and joints.