🤔 Cement Board Or Uncoupling membrane, choose wisely.
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2019
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Which is better, a cement backer board like Hardie Backer, or an uncoupling membrane like Schluter Ditra. There are actually quite a few choices of both kinds, Durock Hardie board, Wonder board are just a few of the brands of cement backer board to choose from. Then you have uncoupling membranes like Schluter Ditra, Mapei Mapeguard UM, Laticrete StrataMat, and Ardex Flexbone just to name a few. So which is better? If you know how they work, then you will be able to figure that out. In this video I explain what the main differences between the two types of tile floor underlayments are, and I give you reasons why you should choose one type over the other and exactly why it is better.
All tile installed by Sal DiBlasi, Elite-tile Company, in the Boston North Shore area. This video contains affiliate links, which means I will receive a small commission if you click on the product link.
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Thank you for sharing all your expertise! DIYers here. Last year husband and I redid our kitchen together subfloor up with woodlook plank LVT and people say it looks like a magazine. Hoping to redo our 80s bathrooms with tile when we can afford it so I am soaking up all your videos getting ready for the big day. Thanks for explaining everything for newbs like us!
A friend of mine who is a Tilesetter, did my home 20 years ago. He used the hardy backer board and just screwed the boards into to the plywood floor. Then installed the ceramic tile. About 1 month later..immensely loud noises occurred around 3am. I woke up and thought someone was firing a gun outside ( Yes it was that loud). I look around the kitchen and the whole floor was cracked along the grout lines and whole tiles. I told him what happened and he said " That never happened before and has done 100's of jobs with no problems. So now I know he installed it wrong and thus, ends the mystery. You have more knowledge of this business than anyone I met or saw on RUclips. Thanks for another great video and hope your doing well- Blessings.
U have a ghost sir 😳 😂
New subscriber here. Thanks to your video I am convinced of going with a membrane decoupler and no cement backer board. You are the first to precisely describe the benefits and wisdom of using this system (in addition to the proper floor support videos, thank you). I have 2 bathrooms ripped up and have not bought the underlayment yet and I thank you for perfectly explaining what I need to do!
Great video, Sal, thank you! I'm a young tile contractor in Colorado and have learned how to do basic tile installation from my dad, who is a custom home builder. Everything more complex, such as pouring a shower, installing Ditra Heat, etc. I have learned from you. I'm always open to trying new methods to get the best results. I just installed my first heated floor this week and while I must say that it's relatively labor-intensive, it's a great product that I plan to use more often. Glad to hear all of this from your perspective with your experience!
Glad that you found my videos helpful 😊👍
You are a fountain of knowledge for us DIY types. Honestly, cable should offer you a big contract to put your videos on their channels.
Great fit for Ask This Old House! Hahah (:
Thank you Sal, I come across your videos during my research for tile installation. I've been considering using an uncoupling membrane product as you have described. Specifically for an upcoming bathroom reno. The info you have provided has given me the answer I was looking for. And I appreciate you emphasizing that one should "Follow Manufacturers directions" when using tile related install products. For that matter, that should apply when installing "Anything" in my book. Thanks for taking the time to put out the videos.
Thanks, glad you found it helpful
Tiling my kitchen floor this weekend onto t&g chipboard (uk) was in two minds about choice of tile foundation until now. Thanks for your very detailed, helpful explanation of why the decouple membrane is best 👌
That was a more logical and thorough explanation than even the manufacturers give.
All your videos are a true master class in tile work.
Thank you so much for making them.
Wow, thanks!
Sal, thank you for the info you keep posting on RUclips. You are the one I go to for all info pertaining to tile install.
Glad to help
Sal, thank you for your videos.I'm older and to me the uncoupling membrane is taking the place of the cork sheets only waterproof. Makes it convenient. Great explanation, Thanks
Great Stuff as always! I just Did 650ft Wood look tile job over Ardex Flexbone..I wont use backerboard again! Also used Rigid level max spacers and was impressed with there ability to ensure it was a lippage free install! Ive been instaling Tile for 10 years and basically taught myself. Id love to come work with you on a shower or 2 for FREE because the learning experience would prove to be invalubale! Thanks for showing how to do things the right way! ..Nick from Jersey
I used Ditra for my bathroom floor tile. Easy to put down and tile over. Good product. Great video Sal, well explained.
As always. Good information. As a professional, I apreciate your education to the general public
Thanks for watching
when in doubt go with cement board or durock. it’ll always give you a great bonding surface.
Thank you Sal...very informative and confirmed my desire to use Ditra...also understand the need to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions...reading online it appears that is the primary cause for uncoupling membrane installs to fail. Take care
For the first time ever I was happy to see a youtUbe commercial now let's get back to the haaaaddddyy baaaackkkaaa
very informative video. A tile Contractor told me that the thicker hardie backer board was for floors and heavier tiles on the walls.
He actually has it backwards, the thinner board was made specifically for floors and should not be used on walls, the thicker version for 16" stud spacing on walls.
Hey sal thanks for this video :) I’ve learned a lot but I have a question. So I’m gonna be building a house in the next year or two and I am gonna have a slab floor instead of a basement. What do you recommend I do for that to tile it? Would I wanna raise it at all? Cause I figure I should use the membrane but does that slab move like a wooden floor would? I feel like I’m going to have to raise it up a bit at least cause I wanna put wanna of those long short drains in cause it’s going to be a walk in shower, so I just been thinking a lot about the design. I actually designed about 16 years ago and now since I’ll be building a home I figure hey why not build that bathroom I designed some time ago. Any info would be good :) also thank you for making these videos I have honestly learned a lot of stuff.
Watching this builds my confidence.....but still so much to learn....thank you
Glad to help
I did thousands of feet of this in Minnesota on a work trip. Easy installation. Hopefully those floors are there for 50 years.
Thank you for explaining mechanics of this. So informative.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video, Sal! And very informative. I just subscribed. Thank you sir.
Thanks for the sub!
Im so happy you explained this, I've been wondering for a long time. I started wondering when I was 11 years old, I'm now 40 yours old. video could of been shorter lol . but very good info keep it up!
Michael Prata ur asking an ole time ah to talk faster or more concisely?
In NZ we have Hardies 6 millimetre thick tile and slate underlay which is a fibre cement sheet .the installation instructions are to use cartridge adhesive like nail bond and flathead galvanised nails at 4 inch centres nailed over the whole sheet. I have laid hundreds of sheets over the years,in theory the nail bond acts as an uncoupling I guess and the tile and cement sheet become one.
Always follow manufacturer installation recommendations, if that is how they say to do it, then it is designed for that installation method, Your standards will be different to ours and you may have products that are not available here. All that being said, there are some products here that I would never consider using.
I will taking some items back to the box store and taking up your recommendation. Thank you.
Is it ok to use ditra (or similar) on 5/8" osb for 12x24" floor tiles? Also what is your option on scratchcoating kitchen floors? (aquabar, mesh, mortar)?
Hi Sal I use mapei uncoupling membrane all the time and I put it down with a 1/4 square notch trowel. The issue I have with it is it seems to curl up in places along the walls or where you cut it. It's kinda a pain in the butt
Sal what do you think about using the ditra over a wedi board on a floor?
Once more Sal thanks you so much for these informations. Cheers .
Any time!
Great video.. I've seen guys use nail guns to slam down hardiebacker dry without care to stagger seams in backer layer and over seams in the subfloor they are going over and they don't use tape over the joints. Hardie board goes down pretty quick with that method but boy oh boy what a recipe for failure.
I have seen this with track housing. It comes up so easy. In sheets. Should be a crime
I always tell my customers, if I'm already going to be spreading thinset to install cement board properly, they might as well spend the money for uncoupling membrane and put it down instead of backer board and get the bonus of uncoupling, lighter weight, and faster installation. Good video Sal!
Thanks, cement board has become an inferior solution.
Hi Sal! I am doing Penny tile on a bathroom floor. What kind of backboard and subfloor setup do I need?
Great info Sal. Uncoupled is the way to go. Got it.
Schluter has great customer service. They will actually help you if their product fails. The other thing I liked was if you use Kerdi in a shower, you don't need a vapor barrier. That's Schluter policy, though I'm not sure if TCNA would agree. Btw....nice clip, Sal.
Really thats good to hear. Because I herd they will have nothing to do with you. Once you start having problems. Thanks for sharing
Amazing video...I was worried about the additional weight at the cent of the kitchen. Definitely opting for the Ditra. Thanks for the tips
Glad it was helpful!
Liked and subscribed. DIY'er here in Coromandel and grateful for your knowledge. Tiling my own bath and shower soon.Thank you. Cheers, D.
Thanks for the sub!
@@SalDiBlasi You're welcome. Old New Jersey kid here. Was nice hearing your accent. Reminded me of my youth in the sixties. Seriously, though, you've really helped me on the home front. I'm a jack of all trades (master of none:) and this bath/shower has to be done well. I'm finding you're the most down to earth and knowledgable man on the subject. Cheers, D.
Well, thanks again.
Hi Sal, thanks so much for the info. Just wondering what happens if you want to change the tile out in a few decades, can you strip it down to the ditra and lay the new tile over top or does the ditra have to come up too?
No. Imagine a super thin wall mini ice cube tray in a roll. That's what Ditra is. It's an Uncoupling membrane. It does just that. You spread Thinset/Allset on the floor in a wet soupy consistency that integrates into the mesh fiber on the bottom of the ditra. Then you mortar that ditra ice cube tray full then scratch lines with your Thinset/Allset mixed normal and lay tile all while wet. It separates the movement in the subfloor from your Ditra and thinset.
Bawstun? Loved Bawstun when I was there. Thanks for the video. very helpful.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Now I understand decoupling membranes; thanks. would you recommend using this decoupling membrane for plaster?
Sal my man. A true expert. Love you big man.
😊👍
Thank you Sal I made notes of your video. Now I will have valid answers to why I will use an uncoupling membrane instead of durock. If not I'll just pass that n the job. I prefer quality. Not dealing with cheap customer s that want to pay cheap for materials.
Might be a good idea to attend some free training events when they are in your area, or go to ones where they pay for your stay.
could an uncoupling membrane be used over cement slab relief joints in order to avoid relief joints in tile? for example 17x17 slab dived in 4 sections by relief joints. want to do a versailles pattern but won'r really be possible with the reliefs.
My only concern with using an uncoupling membrane over concrete in a normally dry basement, is even if any amount of water were to find its way into the dimples of the uncoupling membrane through the side or perimeter edges, it would never be able to dry out.
Very informative video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Much appreciated
Glad it was helpful!
Great video. If replacing tile and have removed all the old backer board, how will this new system work if I need to account the difference in height from the adjacent room (hardwood)?
Sal, that was PhD caliber knowledge from a guy in blue jeans. I appreciate it! One burning question I have is what is the practical outcome in the tile flooring when shifting/settling occurs in the structure after using backer board? Grout failure? Cracked tile? Tile separation from backer board?
Thanks again, Joe
Depends on how much shifting, but all some or none.
Love the video! So informative! Thanks so much!
You are so welcome!
I have a subfloor that is needs some kind of board (like cement backer or plywood) because it’s a series of 2x8 planks. There are half inch gaps between these planks and some height differences. Can i put down a 1/4” cement board and then apply Ditra on top of it? This would level my floorboard and then provide the decoupling. I guess I’m really trying to avoid floating.
Thank you for your teachings! Much appreciated
You are so welcome
Sal I have to say I love your approach to tile work. I’m 62 years young and people wonder why I still do the work myself. My answer is that I still enjoy it. I like the way I do things and also I want to get the most out of my 44 years of experience. May I ask, how old are you and why do you stay at it ?
65, getting to old for this now
Hey Sal, very good information, thanks. QUESTION- - - - I see the these non-coupling membranes suggest only 2" or larger tile. I need to put down a marble mosaic that consists of 1-1/6" hexagon pcs of marble, comes in 12x12 sheets. Is using a smaller mosaic for the floor ok? If not, what do you suggest?
Here is my floor prep: I have a 5/8" subfloor, and I'm adding 15/32" BC underlayment on top. I'm also beefing up floor joists that are 16 OC and "sistering" some 2x6 SYP onto my 2x10 (9-1/4) Floor joists to help with deflection. This will also help reduce my OC dimension and help with a slight leveling problem. (I'm Using 2x6 so they pass over the top of my wiring and plumbing running through the joists). I'll probably add some cross blocking too, especially at all new subfloor joints. Using deck screws for subfloor. I'll thinset the membrane to BC underlayment like you suggest, then tile the mosaic as usual.
Call your rep, in a residential tile job they will usually give you the OK for the smaller tile, and will give you a warranty, but you need to call and follow their instructions, which will usually mean prefilling the ditra before setting the mosaic tile.
Did you end up making a video about whether or not you should use a membrane over concrete floor?
Excellent, can't beat experience 👍
I guess I missed the instructions on out putting down the membrane? Is there adhesive or does it float?
Another great lesson.
With the hardy backer (spelling unknown) even if it was countertop backsplash? Or is there just better ways to go about it?
Hi Sal, can I Instal the Ditra over linoleum whic is on top of a plywood subfloor? Does the Vynil need to be removed ? or can I lay mapei eco prim grip over tbe vynil and then install the Ditra....?
I do tile for living dítra look like great product the problem whenever you need to do a upgrade or new floor is a headache to remove
Hi sal what the best to use over wooden boards
Sal, how do you deal with 12x12 ceramic tiles, and mosaic tile (floor application) that are different thicknesses? Help?!?!
Once again great video and explanation
Thanks for watching
Is there a asni standard number for uncoupling membranes?
All of my tiled floors were done in 2003. Tar paper, mesh, mortar and then tile. I have demolished my bathroom down to the studs and bare plywood floors.
Given that my washing machine weighs about 250 lbs dry (probably 300 lbs full load), should I put an uncoupling membrane between the concrete subfloor and the tile in the laundry room?
Irrelevant, uncoupling serves to protect from cracks from movement, not load.
Doesn't the mortar you apply under and above membrane get hard after installation, making the uncoupling membrane absolite? Seems like the only benefits of this membrane is the ease of carrying, and cutting into the area your installing tile.. I did hear him say something about indentations in the membrane but we go back to both sides of the membrane being completely solid after applying mortar? Thoughts?
Can I install ditra directly on an old smooth tongue and groove (about 2 and 1/2 inch wide and 1 inch thick each) hardwood floor? I think you would call it structural. It is the original floor from when the house was built about 100 years ago. It was not added later. It is still in perfect shape. I will appreciate your advice very much. Thank you for a very good video.
no
Hi Sal I've been watching your videos for years. Thanks for the awesome information! When installing any underlayment, whether it be Backerboard or ditra etc. If one needs to self level a floor, does it go over or under the ditra?
Under then ditra
Sal, do you ever use cork underlayment instead of the mentioned decoupling products?
Would like to find the ardex product supposedly way easier to key in the mortar then on the schluter.
Firstly, thank you very much for all your efforts in providing clarity for DIY'ers like myself! Question for drop in bath tub deck with 3/4 plywood deck, would you use kerdi or ditra on top of the deck? I'm assuming kerdi but correct me if I'm wrong. Thank you kindly
Kerdi Board, or ditr, not Kerdi sheet membrane,
@@SalDiBlasi so schluter ditra or kerdi board on the deck, what about the sides? Kerdi board? And connect them with the kerdi sheet membrane?
Hello Sal,
I will be installing a 1x2 mosaic tile on my bathroom floor and have read not to use the ditra system because they have a minimum of 2x2.
I will be installing 3/4 plywood and was thinking 1/2 cement board on top of that.
Do you suggest the cement board or is there another brand similar to ditra that you would suggest for that size tile?
Thank you in advance!
Call your rep, they will okay it for you.
Sal,
Again, thank you very much for sharing your experience and knowledge.
I plan to replace kitchen tiles(14 years old)- some of them cracked, sitting on metallic/cement "bed".
And I planned to use cement boards to add rigidity to the kitchen floor, especially that tiles cracking shows some movement.
After watching this video, I m not so sure what would be the best approach.
May be to install Ditra instead of cement boards?
What would you recommend and why?
By the way your recommendations about Kerabound T worked perfectly- it was perfect to put tiles on ceiling, no problems at all.
Thank you
Cement board has no structural value, so it will not stiffen the floor. You need to determine you deflection to see if the floor is capable of supporting tile ruclips.net/video/74BDTI67S1M/видео.html then if floor is good for tile, I would use an uncoupling membrane, much better product
@@SalDiBlasi Thank you
If I use hardie backer, then can I use the matting on top of the hardie backer?
Can you use those rolls to lay tile? How can you put mud on those rolls?
Well covered thanks.
The beauty of the ditra is in the inverse egg carton design . The thinset is in the 'nests' , never attaching to the Ditra by surface contact but by a 'Velcro' like attachment . Think of LEGOS that snap INTO the adjoining surface . The thinset is surface attached to the tile back but the Ditra can move horizontally , not forcing the tile to move with it . Hardy back , cement board , dense shield are ONLY for a better base than drywall (including the green junk) ON WALLs only .
I disagree
@@j.johnson8360 this guys full of it
Back door into a sunroom exit door...plywood floor to be build up to have doors leveled without step. Also if weight is an issue, how would u build up the floor on plywood other than concrete slab?
How much height do you need? You can primer and deck mud the floor to raise it. I make this suggestion without knowing all the details and particulars though...
Thanks for the great info.
Glad it was helpful!
Question Sal as I get different opinions on this and haven't located the answer in the TCNA handbook (I'm sure its there I just haven.t found it). Installing tile over perfectly level concrete slab foundation subfloor. Do you waterproof/seal/vapor barrier the concrete slab before installing the tile? Obviously an uncoupling membrane is optimal in every situation, but if the customer doesn't want to spend the money on ditra or the like, do you go directly over the bare slab or prime/seal it first? On the one hand you want the thinset to permeate into the concrete slab and back of the tile to promote a strong bond, on the other hand I can see situations where you would want a vapor barrier. Thanks as always!
If you want to go directly over concrete, then that is fine, however you want to be sure that the concrete has no sealers or bond inhibitors on it. as long as there is no standing water, most times the concrete can still be tiled. Do a water drop test on the concrete, if the water absorbs into the concrete quickly, more than likely the pores are open and suitable for thinset to bond to it, if the water beads or takes a long time to absorb into the concrete, it will need to be scarified in some way to open the pores. If the concrete is below grade and has some amount of moisture coming through, I would think very carefully about just tiling directly to it, not because the tile will not bond, but because the moisture needs to be managed in some way to mitigate all the possible issues that can arise from the moisture in the slab coming through.
@@SalDiBlasi Thanks, that's my issue in this tropical climate with the standard being thin concrete slab foundations, we get high vapor from the slab. Can't drop a layer of cheap 6mil poly under tile like we do floating floors.
Looking for solutions besides ditra (I always recommend ditra or it's counterparts everywhere, but most don't want to pay for it). Any less expensive but standards complaint vapor control method's I can recommend to my clients?
Good morning Sal.
Hey Sal would a liquid membrane like Merkrete 7000 or other brand be ok to use on a plywood sub floor to lay tiles instead of these you showed us? I plan on laying wood looking plank tiles. Thanks
No
All this makes total sense - but - if your subfloor is strong - doesn’t 1/2 screwed (but not glued) hardi accomplish the same goal of uncoupling ? Especially if you use quality porcelain tiles?
🙏🏻❤️🙏🏿 Always uncle Sal. Aloha🤙🏼 Hawaii Tile Renovations LLC
Sal, I put wonderboard down in my bathroom already with mortar and screws. Could I put Ditra over the wonderboard or should I just continue with cement board?
No point putting down ditra at this point.
Geat info, we'll delivered!!
Hello Sal, Great videos, what are your thoughts on tar paper over plywood, then wire mesh and instead of a scratch coat setting tile directly into the mud?. I did not know about this product at the time I was told to use the method as I described, Thanks, Anthony
You have to define your method better, if it is an unbonded mud bed it is perfectly fine old school method, if however you are referring to a Jersey Mud job, it is one of the worst hack ever. How thick is the "Mud" you are referring to and what is it"s composition.
Great Video Sal... Question.. Would you recommend an uncoupling membrane or hardi backer under river rock on bathroom floor? I feel the uncoupling membranes void might make the river rocks easier to flex and move. Any advice would help. Thanks
Since most uncoupling membranes limit the size of the tile to no less than 2x2 inches, I would say maybe you have a point. On the other hand, Schluter will approve of smaller tiles on a case by case basis.
Hey Sal i saw one guy put a mortar bed on to the ditra and then the next day apply thinset and small tile, is that an exceptable solution, he was a homeowner and wasn't worried about warranties.
Great video, thank you.
Glad you liked it!
Sal you have some great videos. So in your opinion what is your preferred membrane?
I mostly use ditra, however they are all more or less the same.
I’ve heard good things about the fleece on the flex bone and there is less chance of air getting trapped in the membrane, also I’ve used Ardex mortars in the past and they seem like they make a great product, flexbone is also made in Germany
Where is ditra made and it seems like ditra has a better lock system
What do you think is a better system?
They are all good systems, the major brands anyway.
can the LATICRETE STRATAMAT be used on walls that have 3/4" x 5" boards used on a counter top back splash? If so what strong adhesive to use?
Stratamat is for floors.
what happens if ditra didnt get attached to the subfloor at some spots? should i rip ditra off and do over or it may not be as critical as im thinking. Would very much appreciate a response. thanks
So here is the beauty of ditra, you can put it down in 1" squares and it will still work the same way as far as the uncoupling function goes. So take up the bad spots and put down some new ditra.
Hadebakahaaa!!! Love it!!!
I love your vids!
😊👍
Hi, thank you for your video. Please tell me, can I use Ditra on top of XPS ?
I don't think you can.
"backboard gives no structural strength to your subfloor" thank you Sal!
👍
very true. It's only to separate the tile from the house.
Hamilton Tile GA thank you sir for saying that. This is sharper finish. Ive had that argument so many times. No structural integrity with cement board. Have to explain that cement board has no grain to it, it flexes in all directions.
thank you sal youre a great guy
😊👍
Thanks Sal
Thanks for sharing!
Sal I am about to tile my bathroom floor. Is this correct...plywood, then thinset, then Uncoupling membrane, mortar/tile? I am going to use the Mapei Uncoupling Membrane Mortar, can I use it for laying the tile and adhering the membrane?
To install the uncoupling membrane mortar to the plywood, you need a modified Mortar that meets ANSI A118.11. Mapei also recommends the use of a modified mortar to set the tile on the uncoupling mat. The Uncoupling membrane mortar you mentioned is an unmodified thinset, it can be used to set the tile, but will not work to install the membrane on the plywood.