TILE FLOOR don't let it fail
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- Опубликовано: 17 апр 2020
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How to choose tile floor membranes. So which uncoupling membrane is better, are they all the same? Do they all work the same way? Is one brand better than the other? in this video I explain just how they work and what some of the differences are. Also, which is better, a cement backer board like Hardie Backer, or an uncoupling membrane like Schluter Ditra. With all the choices of both kinds like Durock Hardie board, Wonder board for cement backer board to choose from. Then so many uncoupling membranes like Schluter Ditra, Mapei Mapeguard UM, Laticrete StrataMat, and Ardex Flexbone just to name a few. Watch the video to better understand what the differences are and how to choose which to use If you know how they work, then you will be able to figure that out. In this video I explain what the main differences between the two types of tile floor underlayments are, and I give you reasons why you should choose one type over the other and exactly why it is better.
All tile installed by Sal DiBlasi, Elite-tile Company, in the Boston North Shore area. This video contains affiliate links, which means I will receive a small commission if you click on the product link.
#tile #transformthetrade #howtotile #installingtile #howtoinstalltile #Schlutersystems
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Thank you, decided to use strata on bedroom and ditra for kitchen and bathrooms. Thank you for amazing videos and sharing your experience.
Sal thank you so much for your expertise..I'm a tile installer myself and I follow your videos for more insight , because we can never stop learning .
Awesome, thank you!
Sal is my go to guy on tile. I am a DIYer and he explains everything well.
Thanks for watching my video.
I have had great results with the strata mat. Cant complain. Thanks for all the vids.
Great to hear!
Great really appreciated… answered all my questions.
Thank you Sal !
You bet!
Excellent again Sal!
Thanks for listening
Awesome video! Very logical explanation and you have motivated me to switch from backerboard. Thanks.
Glad I could help!
You are a great Tileman!
I can't wait to for this 🙂 you are the master of masters the great SAL D.
Hope you enjoy
Thank you Sal! Very helpful!
Thanks for watching my video.
Well explained !
😊👍
this is the vid i was looking for thanks
Thanks a lot !
😊👍
What a great video very good information about what’s out there !!!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank You so much for this videos
You are so welcome!
Hi Sal, very informative video. Do you recommend a floating underlay/ uncoupling membrane? I am looking at this specific product that will not be attached to the subfloor. The supplier says the product is really designed for that and won’t create any cracking issues. But I am afraid it’s just for promotion purposes. Appreciate advice!
I am doing a bathroom remodel and considering putting in the Ditra heat mat. Potential problem is the previous homeowner put an epoxy flooring over the plywood substrate and tiled over it. I'm not sure what thinset they used, but it stuck extremely well as I had to grind the thinset down to the epoxy layer h what a mess. Is there a suitable thinset I can now use to adhere the Ditra mat to this roughed up epoxy floor?
Thanks for your information. I think I understand what the membranes do. I want to tile my floor in a concrete high-rise building in Bangkok (about 30 degrees Celsius +/- 10 degrees all year. It seems nobody here knows about membranes. And they are not available in construction shops. Is it maybe not necessary to use them on concrete and if the temperature does not change much? Thanks?
Yes sir
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Thank you for the videos and tips!! I am installing my first tile floor, and would be lost without you!! For the next one, I would like to use an uncoupling membrane on top of an OSB-type subfloor (it is not plywood, and not particle board, so I assume it is OSB). For many of your uncoupling membrane videos, the membrane is placed on top of plywood subfloors. I have not noted that you mention OSB. Should I assume that OSB and plywood are about equivalent for the purpose of overlaying uncoupling membrane? THANK YOU!!
Scrape the floor to get any loose stuff vacuum and sponge it clean and then You should probably prime it with a bonding primer before anything else. And if you are trying to find someone to help you out with tile you will notice that nobody agrees with anybody about anything. But that's what I do when I'm working with OSB.
Great video! In the new build they put the baseboard in the bathroom, should I remove it before adding the membrane, or can I thin set the membrane on the baseboard?
Remove it
Huge fan of your videos! I am installing Red Guard uncoupling, using thinset over a plywood (23/32 Cat Ps1-09 Tounge and groove Pine) on a 16" on center floor joists. Is this a suitable base for 12"x24" porcelain tile installed with LFT Thinset?
You need to install an underlayment of some kind first, an uncoupling membrane would be my suggestion. You also need to check the deflection of the floor. ruclips.net/video/74BDTI67S1M/видео.html
i see the backer boards role only in leveling in case the floors might be uneven/wavey or in reinforcing / thickening the substrate where the floor is only plywood. Otherwise again, if it is a flawless concrete floor, there is no need. This is only my european view, i respect your experience. Here we have been mounting tiles directly on with no membrane. I know why membrane is popular, cause it comes in roles and easier lighter to carry than cement board.
My local hardwood/tile store is telling us its ok to install their tile over 1-1/4" plywood, does that sound right? It sounds like they are telling us the membrane isnt needed. If I have a super beefed up floor (2 layers of 5/8 ply) wont that eliminate any possible deflection, or is the uncoupling for expansion/contraction issues? How much does the ditra or doggie bone stuff protect against deflection?
love your videos, super helpfull
The uncoupling membranes attach the tile to the floor by a mechanical means. the tile is not actually adhered to the membrane so the membrane can move and deform without transfering that movement to the tile. It is a non force conductive assembly, sticking the tile directly to the plywood, which can be done if you follow TCNA Handbook Method F150 to the letter, is a force conductive assembly, the tile is bonded directly to the substrate and the only thing protecting it from movement is the flexibility of the thinset, which is very minimal. Here is the Ditra Handbook www.contractorsdirect.com/PDF/ditra-installation-handbook.pdf
nad how an uncoupling membrane works ruclips.net/video/YpXEXqbh7ok/видео.html
Sal, have you ever used Dural Backer Lite? Looks similar to the Mapei product where the top of the membrane is covered with the plastic product. I thought it was strange that the thinset doesn't get filled into the voids (like with ditra). Love all videos and the dedication to your craft.
Dural is the same product, and they make it for Mapei.
I wanna be a tile installa thankz for this video!!
Start reading the TCNA Handbook and set some tile.
Hi Sal which produce would you suggest as far as chalk lines being visible an more so holding to the membrane for a good layout. Iv had problems with this I even tried spraying line's with hair spray Or would you suggest I tight coat the day before when possible
I will usually use a black marker to draw my lines.
عمل رائع وارجو انت تتحدث ان تكون هناك ترجمة بالعربى مع حديثك وشكرا
Does anyone know if you can mix in Laticret thermal pack into regular thinset and use it to install Schluter heat duo?
Love your videos! You mention an “extra step” for waterproofing a floor if using Laticrete’s Strata Mat. What would you recommend? I spoke to the local Laticrete rep several months ago who suggested using 1/4” cement board or Hydro Ban board (over my OSB subfloor), then waterproofing that with Hydro Ban or Barrier (using anti-fracture tape on seams and screws), and then installing the Strata Mat. This route adds additional height that will create a noticeable step up that I wanted to avoid. Hoping you may have an alternate recommendation while still using Laticrete products. I’ve considered Ditra but given I plan to use Hydro Ban board on the walls I don’t want there to be a Laticrete-Schluter boundary for ease of ensuring maximum warranty coverage. Do you have a video that covers install of Hydro Ban board on a bathroom floor?
Since the strata mat has hydration perforations in it, you would have to add a layer of a sheet membrane over the whole floor on top of the strata mat.
@@SalDiBlasi Have you ever installed Hydro Ban board over OSB rather than cement board or would generally not recommend doing so? From a weight perspective and ease of cutting, it (Hydro Ban board) seems much more appealing than cement board if not using a decoupling mat.
@@brandiatl21 Use an uncoupling membrane, they are designed for floors, Foam boards are designed for walls.
Sal, what are your thoughts on Merkrete fracture guard in place of this?
Sorry not famiglia with it. However if it is a paint on membrane it has no uncoupling ability, so it is in a different category of membranes.
good job sal my pal. how u like those pro knees? donnie sold me on them and I luv em👌
The best
Sal, question. the uncoupling membrane protects against lateral movement between the sub-floor and tiles. I see that the material is plastic and some thin white foam looking material, wouldn't there be some vertical movement as well that might cause the thinset and grout to crack later on?
No underlayment can protect from vertical movement at a crack.
hello sal just a? or your thoughts on a shower floor is it okay to caulk the bottom perimeter or is grouting that in the way to go. thank you
Technically it is supposed to be caulked with silicone, I will usually just grout that transition. I silicone all the others.
Hey sal, I have a question I’m hoping you can help me out with. So I’m redoing the addition on my house that was done in 83. And the subfloor is 5/8” not tongue and groove which I don’t love but it is what it is.. I’m tiling the bath floor and it will be meeting hardwood. In 2 other areas in my house I put 1/2” cement board over the 5/8” and transitioned to the existing hardwood with an angled schluter metal which worked out great but ideally I’d love for the new tile and new hardwood to end up flush like usual.. do you think that 1/4 hardie backer over the 5/8” is strong enough or would you recommend an uncoupling membrane? Love your videos and really appreciate any advice you can give.
First off if the plywood is not tongue and groove, you need to install blocking at all the seams. Cement board hs no structural value, the only reason to use the 1/2" on a floor is because you need the height, 1/4" is made specifically for floors. Better to use an uncoupling membrane anyway.
@@SalDiBlasi thanks for the feed back
Sal any tips for popping layout lines on top of uncoupling membranes?
I will usually use a laser square, get some reference points at about 4 foot intervals and then use a marker to connect them with a straight edge. not as quick as a chalk line but much more durable. Another way is to snap your lines and use hair spray to seal them in, Since the thinset does not stick to the mat but is only mechanically held, this does not affect the install.
Hey Sal,
Im Pinning down a plastic lath over concrete slab. The plumbers gonna run his radiant PEX and Zip tie it to Plastic Lath.
Installing expansion joint around perimeter of floor, then stretching the dry pack.
Question,
Will installing any Uncoupling membrane over a mud/Lath application with hydronic radiant heat be unnecessary?
You have no common sense apparently. You would use gyp crete to encapsulate the pex, basicially a sellf leveling product then tile over it. Doing a dry pack over radiant floor then putting a plastic membrane over it is going to be ineffctive
Hi Sal. I was told to add 1/8" sheet of plywood on top of my OSB subfloor before adding thinset and Ditra. If I do that then my tile won't be level with by 3/4" hardwood floor.
Can I put thinset directly on the OSB subfloor and then the Ditra then thinset and tile so it will be very close to the level of my 3/4" hardwood floor?
You can add a sheet of luon if you want or just scrape the floor to get any loose stuff, vacuum and sponge it off. Get some bonding primer and give the floor 2 coats of it. Then uncoupling membrane and then tile
What are your opinions on tiling on level concrete? Where I installed my tile there are never any major earthquakes or flooding or anything so foundation issues are very uncommon. I've had no issues.
Well if it is done, then no point worrying about it. Concrete moves at almost twice the rate of tile, so there is that. Even though you don't have any cracks in the concrete now, it does not mean it will not happen later. Like I said there are two kinds of concrete, All that being said, I have installed directly on concrete countless times with no issues, that I know of. If you can afford the uncoupling membrane then I suggest you use it next time, it could prevent a problem where without it it would occur.
hey sal good info I"m a tile installer and I've been kinda afraid of that membrane because I"ve tried using once on some walls and it seemed to just want to come off the wall didnt feel confident using it because of that but also like when they have that advantec down for the subfloor does thin set adhere to that because it seems to have some kind of a water proof film on it so its water proof on its own
Uncoupling membranes are for floors. I'm pretty certain, at least for Kerdi, that walls are not an acceptable application. I don't recall seeing anything about it in their install manual. Sal has discussed this in previous videos, but with non-concrete sub-floors, the Kerdi manual has extensive instructions for sub-floor prep (e.g. thickness, beam spacing, beam length, deflection, etc). You can't just slap down some Kerdi and marble tile without a properly prepared sub-floor.
As ken said, uncoupling membranes are for floors, not meant for walls. Advantec is an approved substrate for uncoupling membranes and will stick no problem as long as you use the proper thinset, done it many times.
@@SalDiBlasi do you use a bonding primer over advanteck?
So I never heard you talk about what kind of thinset you use to attach the membrane to the floor? Are you just using the same thinset that you’re setting your tile with? Also, I see you using a thinset when making your mudbeds. Is that just like a primer/precaution?
There are different types of thinset mortar, some are good for some things and not good for others, so you have to use the one matched to the need, here is a video that explains the basics, ruclips.net/video/S80GVg4Y4MU/видео.html Depending on your substrate, the mud bed will be either unbonded, or unbonded. Mud bed on plywood will usually be unbonded installing a tar paper then wire lath then the mud, on concrete it will usually be bonded, usually thinset is spread and while still fresh the mud is floated over it so it all becomes one.
Bonded mud bed on concrete ruclips.net/video/m9eSdRkCcEo/видео.html
Mud bed on plywood ruclips.net/video/5fazbIqsw8E/видео.html
Schluter factory certified in Reno.
Schluter allows you to use a modified thinset to adhere your tile. What’s so special about their thinset that allows this Sal.
The thisnet is formulated to work with Ditra. The reason is a few years ago there was a development in thinset mortar technology that has mitigated the original reason for the use of an unmodified mortar. All the manufacturers have mortars that will work with Ditra. The thinset manufacturer will substitute their warranty for Schluters' in most cases. Check the manufacturer details for specifics
Sal, question, customer had tile in plywood substrate. Over time issues occurred. How clean does the plywood need to be to install uncoupling membrane? Or do you recommend a different solution? Thank you for making the industry better.
If possible grind it off, does not take as long as you might think. You don't want the new install to be dependent on the bond of the old thinset.
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@@SalDiBlasi okay a close to fresh wood as possible with a dust and wet wipe down I presume. Thank you very much Sal!!
hey sal when you do a removal of tile and the installer used a membrane, do you also remove the membrane, if thats the case how difficult is that?
Yes, remove the membrane, not easy, but then again if the tile was installed properly it is never easy no matter how it was installed.
Sal DiBlasi yea I know its never easy
Would you always lay a backer board on the floor over plywood? Is primer necessary?
Primer for sure over old. Use it ACCORDING TO SPECS. Start tiling after proper limited "dry"time. You don't need a backerboardwith these membranes.
The extra money is ABSOLUTELY worth it. The risk of your bad tile job will be lessened versus the difficulty to install that backerboard anyways, too many things to get wrong. And it's still not going to perform as well as crack iso membranes or uncoupling
Sal what is the best membrane to use for a small mosaic like penny tile? Schluter told me they won’t warrant a mosaic less than 2” on Ditra. I want to use a membrane for the penny if possible because I think it way lay much smoother.
None of the uncoupling membranes will allow tiles smaller than 2". Is this a floor or a shower pan?
@@SalDiBlasi It is for a floor
@@SalDiBlasi I have heard that nobleseal or just Mapei self level would be best
@@SalDiBlasi I have the same question as @reillyliner - help please! We have, sadly, already made the mistake of laying down Ditra before realizing that our 1" hexagons were unfit for it. Should we just use Mapei self-leveling over the Ditra to fill it in and make a new flat surface?
Hopefully someday they will come out with an uncoupling membrane where the waffles are filled with foam or something instead of thin set, those membranes use a lot of thinset to fill the waffles.
That's what locks the tile into the membrane
@@davegordon6943 Yes but Kerdi adheres also without waffles…I believe the waffles filled with TS gives it its strength..
Why would you prefer uncoupling on cement floor for example?
What's the benefit? Tnx
There are two kinds of concrete, concrete that is cracked, and concrete that is going to crack. Uncoupling will protect you from future cracks. Concrete moves at a different rate to tile, by movement I mean expansion and contraction, and yes it does move. Uncoupling compensates for that. Just two reasons to use it.
Sal. There are still installers using the mesh and scratch coat method. They claim with today's modern materials are the same or better and cheaper than an uncoupling membrane. What is your opinion? Thanks.
Don't believe it, also know as a Jersey Mud Job, one of the worst ethods ever. Not to be confused with floating walls and floors.
I could use some advice. I want to put down cement board on my sub floor (kitchen-entry-1/2bath) for the density and feel of walking on a concrete-like floor. If I lay my cement board over my linoleum, then ditra over the cement board, then tile... Will that work or am I making a potential disaster?
It is best to remove the linoleum, before you either put down the cement board or the Ditra. In no instance should you you use bothe cement board and ditra, either one or the other, not both. Here is a link sccpublic.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/sys-master/images/hcd/hde/8917115306014/DITRA%20Installation%20Handbook.pdf to the Ditra Handbook, on page seven you will find the detail for installing ditra on existing vinyl floor, read it carefully to be sure you meet all conditions. In any case, as I said, best to rip out the linoleum.
@@SalDiBlasi Thanks Sal!
Do you have a video of waterproofing the seams of Ditra?
Sure ruclips.net/video/wp-YtM2GkSk/видео.html
Sal DiBlasi “do you have” seems like a silly question in hindsight 🙏
Sal/.everyone- which membrane is thinnest ? Schlueter looks much thicker hence I’d have to deal with a comparatively elevated floor ?
All the regular membranes are about 1/8" thick, some have thicker versions like Ditra XL and the heat wire versions are all about 1/4" thick.
What about the redgard uncoupling mat? What do you think of it compared to the products in your videos?
Not a fan of Custom products with few exceptions.
I have been installing tile for 20 years. Years ago we set tile over luan plywood. I have done a lot of family and friends tile work Over the years and it is still there without any problems. I use the new systems but , the truth is that I never had any problems the old way. Go figure?
Using an improper system does not guarantee failure, it increases the ods dramatically. Following manufacturer recommendations and TCNA methods and standards, ensures success.
I wonder if laun ply has a lot of flexibility to it.
I like mapeis product better, you don’t have to fill all those waffles. Plus I trust mapei.
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🤫shhhhhhhhh if you listen closely you have to concentrate though lol you can hear off in the distance bob from startile screaming in agony that uncoupling membrane will ruin your floor!! 😂
😊👍
i think it was invented for the situation when the tile needs to go, and new one put in. Otherwise the bullshit i hear that a crack from the concrete floor transfers though the adhesive(thinset in the states) and somehow cracks the top tiles is funny. Yes the people uninstalling a tile mounted correctly on a concrete floor will have more to work with the hammer drills but that is happening once 20-30 years hopefully, the world doesn't go that crazy that we change tile every 5 years.
Sal, you used a few different products in this video, why is that? Just trying them? I used to use ditra but now use mapeis underpayment. I think schluter is a little silly, $50 a bag for modified thinset!? When they’ve told us for years we couldn’t use modified under ditra? There must be some special stuff in that bag to make it $25 more then a good mapei.
I mostly use Ditra and Mapei uncoupling mats, because that is what my supplier carries, the others are just as good. There was a development with thinset technology a few years back that mad the "Modified, Unmodified" issue less relevant.
ardex 77 is 50 a bag in my area, but its really good stuff
The uncoupling membrane at 4:50 is shaped like doggie bones
Mapei it better and cheaper than schluter , buy nobody sell it yet.
Won't find itg in the box stores.
@@SalDiBlasi Good News, I live outside Philadelphia and the Lowes have switched to the full line of Mapei products! I have started going there.
The products at the box stores are not the same as the products at a tile store. That is why they have different naming. Look up the data sheets for some of their products offered there and the ones available at a tile distributor. Not to say they are bad product, just formulated to meet the price demands of a box store. For example look up Ultraflex 2, and their offering at the box store, Porcelain tile Mortar. Ultraflex 1 is available at both outlets, but that is a lower grade product.
Check your local tile store.
Why the hell are those membranes more expensive than tiles per square foot!?
You must be buying some garbage tile.
Latcrete. Is best has holes in the membrane.