You're a weirdo do you realize the voters voted for change not for what you queer for Palestine think why would you want to stop the change that America voted for you don't think Trump voters expected all of his picks
The major problem with this is that the left wing was TOO DIVIDED with inner squabbling, meanwhile the right wing was UNITED in supporting Trump for the most part! You leftists especially those with socialist and progressive bias and ideology, combined with alternative media, anti gov/establishment/mainstream divided the voting base up, contributing to the failure of this election. That plus centrists and other podcasts giving Trump soft balls and undecided voters is what led to your failure, most of the left wing's REFUSAL to unite and support the corp dems and too much time WHINING AND COMPLAINING ABOUT CORP DEMS is what led to this failure! So next time, after this 4 years of misery under Trump, figure out how to unite the left wing under one banner or it's another Trump win!
It’s because the voters vote on the feelies. Trump has a much better connection to this. His double digit IQ connects better with the angry white voter. Hell. the angry Hispanic voter too. You are looking for a logical argument here. No. It’s how it looks. Elon is the spaceman and contributes to the American image of a winner. He gets a pass.
She did but she didn't use progressive talking points, call out billionaires or go on that ONE podcast that would have changed the game. At least I assume that's the left-wing response.
@@thetruthstrangerthanfictio954 nah Destiny makes sense he is just emotionally retarded if I can make up a term. Dude doesn't understand empathy. I don't watch him often but if he's not Autistic I'll be shocked
Lol, this whole debate is stupid…still pretending their party did not make terrible policies that people clearly sees are bad now…not only that: divided population with racism, misogynie, anti-science, fact checkers (I could go on…)
@@mariokz8055 Oh, do go on ... Only delusional people and ruthless rightwing grifters are afraid of facts and reality. But I do concede, in that under and miseducated, media braiwashed, science fearing religious fundy MAGA heartland open racism, misogyny, white supremacy and bitter hate are clearly winning policy propositions! Apparently human compassion, acceptance, inclusion, universal physical/mental healthcare, a working life compatible with human existence, and striving for the common good is an anathema to a large segment of US voters.
That's kinda' like saying "do sports commentators think that people who watch sports actually pay attention to the inner workings of each team?" Some do, some don't. You can be a fan for a team and have very little knowledge of what goes on with them.
@@dandotvid The difference is that sports are entertaining and people actually want to watch them meanwhile the average normie gives no fucks about politics beyond what the media portrays as giving them a better economy and having better vibes, nobody reads or cares about policies which is why Trump never talked about them during his campaign
I don’t think David gets enough credit for being a great debate moderator. Even in the past when he’s had people like Denis Prager on for debates, he doesn’t put in his thumb on the scale too much, and keeps the conversation on track.
Yeah, this is the first time I’ve seen him moderate. I’m super impressed. I usually hate debates because I can’t stand the yelling and talking over top of each other. I love how he guided the responses to keep things on track and narrowed down specific ideas for the reply. This was actually really enjoyable to watch and I feel like I came away having clearly heard each person’s response. Cenk and Destiny were both also refreshingly respectful of the other person’s talking time and listened without interrupting.
> my union voted 90% trump but trump made it very clear hes anti union? even that whole musk "you fire everyone if they strike!" comment? evidently i have no clue either, can you explain why your colleagues would vote for someone who will destroy union power and worker rights
@@TyCook-s1cyou just proved his point ao incredibly well its hilarious. America us a consitutional republic, and a democracy. Republic in western generally means not having a King. Constitutional means the presidents power is limited by a constitution. Otherwise there isnt a single democracy in the world. Sweden and England and constitutional monarchies, we are also democracies. America is so uneducated and irrational, atleast it makes internet alot more entertaining lol.
which is why we need to reform education why are kids learning Spanish and geography over coding and economics. why are civics and home ec not a thing anymore. why dont we have carpentry welding auto mechanics electrical engendering engendering medics philosophy(law) and computer science. 12 year of the same subjects is nonsense. math should be able to teach geometry by the 6 to 7th grade that shouldnt be a highschool subject nor should English
Dude above said how he right is, when off the top of the dome he lied about far left winning and saying Britain flips from left wing to right wing back to left wing 😂😂😂
he is usually never right. claims to be progressive but every 4 years he "votes blue no matter who". He also pocketed 20 million & still asks for money from his audience.
Just run a candidate that has absolutely no problem appearing anywhere, being interviewed by anyone. The only two people I could think of is Jon Stewart and Pete Buttigieg, and only one of them wants to be President.
I think Cenk and Destiny both bring some good things to the table. But man, Cenk can really have a hard time listening sometimes, especially at the end. Almost unwilling to understand Destiny (and David’s) takes on the pentagon stuff. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Cenk never actually named anything he wanted to cut, even after being asked and saying he would name something 😂
I think cenk is advocating the idea that we should go looking for things too cut (sounds a little conservative, but I FWI). Destiny , is concerned about the use of the freed up money under the trump administration. Ignore the way Destiny and Cenk treat each other and we can see some interesting things
What Cenk what's saying is how can he propose cuts for a specific things when money is going missing. So essentially if you are missing $400 million or can't account for where it went, the next year's budget should be $400 million less
I understood you cant name the things to cut because the money they lose is not accounted for. Theoretically whatever they couldnt account for should be cut because they apparently didnt need it
Yeah I noticed that. I don't think Destiny had a great grasp of British politics either (and I can't blame them, they don't live here) but yeah I thought the same when I heard Cenk's comments. Destiny is right that it was a rejection of the incumbent, not a vote for the left.
@PaulStargasm Yeah the polling shows it was a collapse in the Conservative vote that led to Labour winning, rather than a massive uptick in Labour votes. As an aside, I don't think Cenk has any grasp of UK politics beyond the Labour party and even then he's shoe-horning the little he does know into a broader narrative which doesn't fit; whereas, Destiny at least has an accurate general sense but, in contrast, he doesn't fall into the trap of speaking on elements he doesn't really know 🤷
I think you might have misinterpreted Cenk slightly. What he saying is that the people are voting against both the left and the right because the majority of the population are sick of politics as usual. Therefore in one sense they appear to lurch left and right because they switch between left and right parties. Yet the real reason this is happening is because neither party are pursuing economic policies that are popular to the voting majority.
This is how debates should go unlike when piers Morgan does them. People allowed to get complete sentences in and finish their thoughts without interruption or mockery that especially piers like to do
Piers entertains debates between different political parties. He doesn’t line the panel up with one party to debate amongst themselves. Expecting both debates to produce the same level of courtesy is delusional.
@@richardzammetti7453@richardzammetti7453 Piers Morgan does more right-wing vs left-wing panelists. He constantly interrupts left-wingers and makes rude remarks, yet pampers the Republicans. Piers has shown bias and lacking knowledge when it comes to Trump topics while offering misinformation with right wing media talking points while ignoring actual facts presented
I don't like Cenk, but I think he is right here. The 2020 primary had so much wrong about it. It was only because Trump was so unpopular amid Covid that he lost to Biden. Otherwise, Biden would have definitely lost. Trump received a lot of votes even in that situation. I remember being depressed by the final 2020 vote count even though Biden won. I wanted a sound rejection of Trump and it didn't happen. We shouldn't be surprised by this outcome in 2024.
This was an interesting convo! We should have more of these where it’s “people on the left” disagreeing with each other on nuanced issues like this. Hopefully y’all will have more of these!
@@wddilly8488if you're honestly questioning that you're likely so far "left" that you fell off a cliff. You should probably stay down there, Respectfully.
@@masterchief9291 specifically he was right that Kamala had a lot of momentum after being nominated and choosing Tim Walz, a very progressive governor, as running mate. But then she basically went center right on issues such as immigration and Israel-Palestine and parading around with Dick Cheney. She became establishment and corporate backed and that’s when she lost. She gave up on running on progressive policies.
@@masterchief9291 or when he called Elon’s bluff on cutting government bloat to see if we can make big cuts to Pentagon budgets. Destiny just complains that he doesn’t know what to cut, so I guess don’t even try? I couldn’t quite understand Destiny point there
@@micahvandam9658 To your first comment, this seems like having an answer and searching for the question.. it's too circular for my taste. It could be as simple as no one pays attention to the VP normally so she was suddenly thrust into the spotlight with a media entourage behind her which soaked up all the positives, and as time went on (as it does for everyone) support wanes. Saying she went "center right" on [x] isn't really saying anything. Arguably the majority of Americans agree with her position more on what you referenced, but this wasn't a policy based election. At least imo.
I absolutely love this: legitimate discussion spurred on by genuine questions. Piers needs to take some bloody notes! Cenk even tempered himself when he didn't get a rise out of Steven. If you don't encourage the guests to act like monkeys throwing shit, they can actually have constructive discussion. Who would have thought it possible.
These 3 need a podcast together, both to show that even if you disagree/dislike someone you can come together and talk it out, and it would be entertaining
Destiny is SUPER wrong if you listen to him you will always lose. Trump never ran political office and he won!!!! We need need a celebrity like Jeff Ross the roast master or John Stewart!! Not Joking
No. Destiny does not deserve a platform at all. He says the n word as a white dude. Openly supports genocide. And has crusaded against cenk's nephew hasan for years now. He's also platformed nazis like Nick fuentes, and they do not call them nazis when Nick fuentes is a holocaust denier and even invited him over to his house.
5:00 The only country in which the incumbent party did not lose its election this year was Mexico. MORENA maintained its majority in both houses of the legislature and the presidency.
Yes but Morena is a fairly NEW party. Mexico was ruled for decades by the same party prior to 2000. Then new parties broke through. Morena is literally a party that began existing like half a decade ago; they are still seen as "not the establishment". Progressives making this point don't understand Mexican history when making this point; I am willing to bet that they don't even know that a President can't run for reelection immediately after winning their first presidential election (it is similar to our term limits but ends after 1 term).
the Labour party in England only won 35% of the votes. They just benefited from the Tory party splitting votes with the farther-right party, leading to big wins for Labour.
I’m not there yet but Destiny did the same thing in the very first question. “No the Democrats did not abandon the working class because Trump is bad on labor.”
I used to think Cenk would be the first progressive commentator to flip right. I was wrong. My guys principled as fk. I find my self agreeing with him more and more. Him and Kyle Kulinski. Destiny makes some good points, but he's just missing the major point.
Because Cenk doesn't actually know anything about defense spending or military spending or much of anything military related. He just remembers the Iraq War, the constant headlines about failed Pentagon audits, all those early 2010s articles about how terrible the F-35 is, and random tidbits of information about former generals going to work in the defense industry (How wild is that? People with knowledge about defense going to work in the defense industry after they retire from the military. Crazy and obscene!) and thinks that the DoD is just some giant grift made to line the pockets of defense executives and politicians He couldn't name two defense programs he'd want to cut if you asked him. It's all just more of the same under-researched uninformed vibes-bases populist drivel that's poisoned our politics
There is no difference. I think what you are talking about is mandatory vs discretionary spending, which is completely irrelevant other than debunking the claim that we pay more for military than healthcare when it is the opposite. Either way, the military only costs as much as it does because the vast majority of military spending is spent on other countries. In fact if you look at total federal spending, the vast majority of taxpayer dollars goes to foreign countries, or foreigners in America than American purposes. This is why America rarely fights wars that actually directly involve us, we are instead fighting wars of other countries who bribe politicians under the table.
@DaveSmith-cp5kj Military spending is funding all the US bases around the world. Empirical escapades. Dr. Ron Paul tried explaining this to the American ppl when he ran for POTUS. He had more support among on duty soldiers & Veterans than the rest of his opponents combined.
I'm shocked Cenk didn't bring up the fact that Bernie actually did beat Hillary in the primary, he did. And the DNC beat him down and convinced him she was the better candidate.
I supported Katie Porter in the CA Senate primary and there was some intense trolling on her FB page. Someone really wants to squash anyone who talks about corporate greed.
You sound paranoid. She's genuinely unpopular, at least compared to Schiff. When people attack Schiff, who I strongly support, I never think "it's some shadowy cabal!" This is why progressives always lose- no self-reflection or accountability.
When I was in college I took a class got Organizational Behavior and it was a requirement for Business majors. In that class we learn that ppl hate change. They get comfortable with the status quo. To enact big changes you must create a ‘burning floor’ and once the change is done you must freeze it and get ppl to be comfortable with the new normal. The left needs to understand this dynamic more than anything. And this is why I think pragmatism is critical. Too much change scares ppl
Just take a look at national approval ratings of some of the more progressive policy proposals in the U.S. It clearly shows that the majority of Ameicans are in favour of progressive policies but the democrats either suck at messaging or don't care to message effectively.
If that was always true, you'd expect them to vote for Biden or Harris. Trump was the change candidate this election. (Change for the worse, but still).
I think Kamala lost partly because people didn't actually BELIEVE she was going to do any of those things. Especially when asked she flat out said she wouldn't change anything or do anything different than Joe Biden. That was a really bad answer. I agree with cenk that she ran a great campaign in the beginning and picked Walz which was such a great move. And she said some populist things. But the problem was she was coached out of saying we won't go back. And Walz was coached out of saying "their weird" by consultants who thought it was "too mean" and nobody would like it. When the opposite was true. Then they decided to tour with Liz Cheney and Kamala said more than once "we were going to have the most lethal military in the world". Meanwhile Trump is running around pretending he's anti war and convincing everyone he had no new wars while in office. Of course that's not true. Then she took the Republican far right framing on the border and didn't call out the racist bullshit for what it was. She didn't stand up for trans people or mention them at all or even have a trans person speak at the rally. She didn't differentiate herself from the status quo on the border and the military industrial complex and trans people. Thereby giving people the impression that the Republicans were right on these issues and so I guess I will just vote for the people who mean it. And I don't think she talked ENOUGH about her progressive policies. I think if she had taken like 5 of the most progressive policies policies that Walz had implemented like 12 weeks paid family leave and paid sick days and legalizing marijuana and raising the minimum wage and taxing the rich and fre school lunches and breakfast and just hammered that home constantly all the time she could have won I think Jon Stewart and others have said that Democrats are too busy responding to narratives about them defined by other people including Republicans rather than creating their own narrative. The border is the perfect example of this. Republicans have been running around freaking out about immigrants and the border crisis 24/7 and blaming black and brown immigrants for all there problems and trans people as well.. so it was polling as a big concerning issue..but that's ONLY because Republicans were freaking out about it everywhere all the time. Democrats could have said hey wait a minute.. they are scapegoating immigrants to divide the working class but those aren't the people to blame for your problems.. Your only worried about it because they told you to worry about it not because those people are dangerous or scary. Then you point out it's the rich billionaires and corporations who are actually to blame. Then you can talk about the real problems at the border and offer humane solutions. One thing that cenk could have said when they were talking about single payer healthcare and polling is that your Job when running for office is to educate people about certain policies they may not understand. Bernie was really good at that when it came to single payer healthcare. Because the fact is there's a lot of misinformation on corporate media and from conservative media. But when it was explained correctly people supported it versus when it was asked from a conservative perspective. Whenever the choice is between the real Republican and the fake wannabe Republican the real one usually wins. I think Kamala was amazing in the debate and ran a way better campaign than Hillary Clinton. But I also think she made important mistakes in regards to not having a Palestinian speaker or a trans speaker at the DNC among other things I have mentioned above. The last thing I will say is that I think everyone should go watch interviews on the Mark Thompson show with Greg Palast who's an investigative journalist talking about Jim Crow voting laws and how right wing vigilante groups and people have challenged thousands of votes and had them thrown out. It's usually black people or latinos or Asian Americans. There are two important interviews and he has a free documentary out and has written a bunch of books about this. He's currently trying to count and figure out how many ballots were thrown out and not counted in this race. It's in INSANE amount of ballots. and Trump put in really strict voter id laws and Biden didn't overturn them. So we went into this with one hand tied behind our back so to speak. I think that played a bigger role than people realize. He said there were enough ballots challenged in Nevada to swing the election towards Trump. Votes are still being counted and so Trump barely won the popular vote by like 1.5%. he doesn't have a mandate to do anything!! And there's a huge amount of people who didn't vote and we have to reach those people. So just a reminder that half the country did NOT vote for a fascist. Trump got less votes than last time. Destiny was sooo ridiculous when he said populism equaled dictatorship. I disagree with cenk on the trans issue. We don't have to throw trans people or immigrants under the bus in order to win elections. The ONLY people obsessed with trans people are the far right. Just call them out with compassion for trans people and clarity and strength and conviction. The way Republicans do when they are wrong about issues. and offer popular progressive policies to win. Kamala didn't run on trans rights or being a woman or latinx or being black or Indian. So that's a disengegous argument. And most of the Democrats who lost congressional or other local races ran to the right on the border and throwing trans people under the bus and didn't run on those issues either. So that's not working either and is reprehensible in my opinion. If we just had conviction and were firm and unapologetic in what we believed and offered popular progressive policies and called out bullshit on the other side unapologetically we would have a way better chance of winning.
Seeing that she is not against Israel, it makes no sense for her to have a Palestinian speaker. A trans speaker would not have done anything at all as they were all on board anyway. I think she should have accepted more interviews, and she should have answered some questions for those she attended. I was all for her at the start, when the rose colored glasses came off and reality sunk in that she was not going to do anything but the same old same old. I don't like Trump as a person but he was the stronger of the candidates that we had to pick from. Desperate times need desperate measures our country looks weak and has lost credibility all over the world. Trump is what is needed now and hopefully he can put some fear in those that destroy our country.
When I first started being more politically engaged a few years back, the YT algorithm led me to TYT and debate bros. I thought I got away from them for good... 💀
how do you feel when someone like cenk argues against David Packman 10 months ago saying Biden should drop out and we should have a Democratic primary. And David is against it. Makes me think cenk is more correct than David.
Destiny got wrecked here.. let’s be honest. But what I like about Cenk is that he represents the very pragmatic, old-school common sense group of liberals, compared to Destiny who embodies the disconnected, highly academic but out of touch segment of liberals. Destiny’s vibe reminds me of the fast-talking snarky college student who completely lacks real world, hands on knowledge - just lofty scholastic theories.
Cenk made some good points. To say that the media doesn't have candidate favorites and doesn't affect elections is hilarious. Most people didn't even know who Bernie was until the middle of the 2020 primaries. Destiny got cooked here
It's always the same thing everyone looking at why people lost using their ideological glasses. Everyone creating a story that fits with their ideology to explain why they lost.
First time I saw Cenk win over Destiny. Steve is so out of touch with the middle class and union jobs.... it is insane. Hopefully he comes back to reality.
The media is not unfair to corporate democrats, but it’s certainly unfair to democrats (or independents like Bernie and Dan Osborn) who don’t take corporate money and are actually advocating for economic policies that will materially hurt the wealthy who control society
They did a great job elaborating on the divisive culture of the left. I voted red for my first time this election I probably won’t go back , because I don’t see this changing.
as an outsider, watching you americans debating over which ONE candidate to support is just pure comedy. that's what the lack of ranked choice and mandatory voting do to a country - people supporting the same party foam at the mouth at each other over which one is the most "electable" rather than who actually has better policy & is less corrupt etc. that's how you always end up with a dungbeetle vs a roach in your presidential elections. but noooo. it's too hard to talk about electoral reform that universally benefits the entire country. it's easier to let out some steam at the other "faction" of the party when your party loses. yous are completely and utterly hopeless.
We've long wanted this. The two party system is an entrenched way of this country from the beginning and it's got pros and cons. Instead what you see is parties changing into other parties on a very rapid scale. Within a relatively short period, we've seen the Republican Party become a new almost indistinguishable Maga populist-nationalist party. Your criticism is an easy one to make but do you take effort to ask why or notice anything else going on with it and what steps are needed to change it? So yes, ideally, a lot of us want things we can't have. That change is starting to happen very slowly and it's still possible but in the end, we have the Electoral College winner take all piece as the root cause of it. There's more talk on it than you think but it's not enough yet. It comes up a lot more these days though given the recent trend of things.
@@johngagon yet, every time anyone brings up mandatory voting, most of you always go "but i should have the fReEDoM to choose whether or not to vote". right now, you have a voter turnout of roughly 60%, which means a candidate wins presidency when they get 30% of the vote. 30% of the voting age population is determining who governs 100% of the population. "minority rules" is the opposite of democracy. yet none of you view this as a crisis and still insist on having the ill informed & misguided notion of "freedom" of choosing whether to partisipate in democratic process or not. it's not just the two party system that's entrenched. it's your collective mindset as well. "the world's most powerful country" is only 29th on the Democracy Index. but you guys just don't care that much. half of you is happy to let the country slide further into authoritarianism as long as the guy they vote for keeps talking tough on perceived/manufactured enemies. the other half is also keen to put the electoral reform talk on hold as long as their candidate wins because they think the system magically becomes less broken when their side wins. please change.
The electoral reform of which you speak requires a constitutional amendment which takes 2/3 of both chambers in our national legislature, so it is practically impossible
I feel like that's kinda the reason why he's wrong lol. "People don't feel like they're being represented/politicians aren't doing enough" - this can be true, but "The people embedded in politics are doing what they can" - this can also be true at the same time. Even the perfect candidate is not going to have perfect policy when they get elected, because they'll face so much opposition that they will by necessity need to compromise to get flawed-but-good policy to pass.
Yes Cenk!! 2 very different groups of progressives! I’m in the camp of Bernie-economic progressive! The corporate do-nothing Democrats and the crazies who can’t find one common sense thing to agree on scare me!
Human rights aren't common sense? Is common sense an agreement on which marginalized groups the majority can suppress? Human rights are not negotiable.
@ there you go! I’m for gay rights but I’m not for men in women’s sports no matter your surgeries! If we agree special Olympics should exist then why isn’t it common sense that two special categories should exist for those altered to be female presenting or male presenting? It’s crazy batshit positions like these that had solid democrats voting for that hateful man! Paying for surgery to change your sex is elective just like me opting for a boob or bbl or tummy tuck etc. Looking at a male presenting person with full on beard and a deep voice and telling me his pronouns are she and her and asking me to call her Isabella is a mess and would have required a psych evaluation just a few years ago! I’m for protecting the Palestinians but I know it’s complicated and pushing my one candidate to alienate Jews during the election when the alternative is effing Trump is stupid! I personally am sick of the far left social bullshit that is making all progressives seem crazy! I am for protecting human rights but we need to solve our immigration problem! Red States are poor and uneducated but big cities are unsafe! We are paying a fortune to Ukraine and Israel but student loans, healthcare still not solved! The legal immigrants on temporary status from Venezuela, Cuba, Ukraine, Haiti deserves our help but they get free healthcare and food stamps yet most of us don’t have access to these programs! I’m saying we don’t have to compromise on humanity by being stupid ! Outside of your righteous bubble, most people are where I’m at! At some point Dems are gonna have to call bullshit on some wedge issues while delivering true tangibles for everyone! Dirt poor and super rich are the winners albeit skewed. The near poor and middle are about to pop or maybe they did by voting for this lunatic!
I'm not watching this whole thing, just responding to Destiny's first statement. Sorry bub, but the Democrats abandoned the working class DECADES AGO. This isn't even a theory or vibes thing, it's documented policy. As manufacturing started going overseas, the Democrats started catering to the upper middle class and higher, because that's where the money was. They became the banking and Wall Street party, and that's perfectly clear when you look at all the legislation they've done over the last four decades. People love to point out "Oh, Biden did this and this for the working class, he's the most pro-worker president in generations", but when the bar is so low it's basically underground, it's not hard to get over it.
Many of my conservative friends call themselves Kennedy democrats and say they started leaving after Clinton. Clinton sold the party out to Wallstreet and the globalists that the working class on the right is beginning to revolt against. Dems ( Jacksonian KKK party) like Destiny are frigging clueless as to whats happening.
You are one of the many problems with America. The Dems are far better for the middle class the Republicans. I was a Republican for over 30 years, they don't care at all about the middle class. And Biden brought back far more manufacturing than Trump. America is full of idiots - and you appear to be one of them.
If you ignore facts like cenk getting demolished when he ran. Or Bernie to hillary by millions. Or losing the Hispanic vote then proceedings to say latinx when studies show 95% of Latinos hate that etc.
Cenk has really been growing on me! I am very center and appreciate guys like him that are not 🐑 he gets a bit emotional sometimes but I trust he means what he says even when I disagree. Destiny is a 98% 🐑 and I think his medication needs rebalancing at times… but politics aside he seems cool and his personality has gotten him far. David is bounces around between 50-85% 🐑 and sometimes I think he is wildly inaccurate with his take but his voice is needed and appreciated either way. I think there are times where David is very logical and he is a brilliant at debating his points. I love David’s show when he has conservatives like Vivek on his show. He interviews well and allows people to steel man their positions without interrupting. So many people on the left especially in the media can’t handle an interview like David with self control to ask questions without turning it into a debate. I would love to see David back on PBD’s show again! I voted Trump but would have likely voted for a democrat that made sense but Kamala wasn’t right for the job. Trump was my 3rd or 4th choice as GOP but I am registered Independent. I would have loved to see Vivek vs Shapiro!
You mean the guy that was born in a country that has spent more time in charge by authoritarian regimes, moves to the US and now preaches idiocy that I'll lead to political unrest. 😅😅
@Tqoratsos666 I don't judge people where they come from rather on their behaviors. Cenk is a smart guy, but I think he is rude, arrogant, dismissive and doesn't have much empathy.
@@BuckeyeExpat I was actually talking about Pakman, and I'm not judging him on where he comes from, merely what political divisions did to his country of origin and how he's helping seed those same issues here.
@@Tqoratsos666 ok..sorry I misunderstood you. Cenk was also not born in US. I think Pakman gives alot of effort to critically think through issues. He is usually polite and lets people finish their point. Sometimes he is an alarmist I agree. I don't believe or agree with everything he says. But we all have to have critically think about any political pundit left, right or whatever. Still I like Pakman's style over Cenk. Pakman stays cool and he does reflect on both sides of the issue often.
Omg man. I never listened to Destiny before, but christ. He's absolutely clueless. He got sat down by Chenk and he's not even the best at arguing left wing positions. How do people listen to this guy? Embarassing.
Great conversation, both parties listened to each other and argued on a factual level. I absolutely agree with Cenks take here. @David great job moderating.
One side attacks each other more than they attack their opponents. They also do these attacks in public and not behind closed doors. Maybe that's why they lose?
@@blackout07blueFirstly, this was not a landslide defeat. Secondly, the progressives/leftists were being openly critical of the party even before the eelction, and many wouldnt even give Harris their support.
haven't you watched kamala's debate/campaigns? where even after watching quite a few you still have no idea of her policies? and where most of their time is spent on attacking trump??
To hear these three talk about cutting government spending when the Democrats by nature are for expanded and bloated government. The government tends to mismanage funds in all areas not just the Pentagon. Look at the billions wasted on Medicare and Medicaid for example. These three just want to see our government burn up our money in other ways.
Democrats who are infamous for believing in bloated government are now going to lecture us on cutting government spending.😂😂😂😂 There are so many areas where we could cut outside of the Pentagon. Since when has government ever been efficient with the use of your money?
As a general rule you should avoid using "this guy", when there are two guys discussing things. EDIT. Especially when it on inspection turns out, that you actually meant the interviewer, and not one of the two guests.
But in the end the only people to blame is us. We deserve the government we vote for. So 50 or 60 percent voting will never get us to where we want to be
I mean no offense but I’m confused as to why ppl watch Destiny for politics? It sounds like he hasn’t worked in the public sector & may not have a college education. That could be fine, but he clearly hasn’t bothered to learn how the different branches of govt work, how taxing & spending work, etc 😬
@@scarletsletter4466creditials are irrelevant, he actually conducts a significant amount of research. He has 8 hour streams where he does nothing but research for debates. People like him because they prefer this over people who react to headlines.
looking at these comments show me why the Democrats lost. Y’all won’t even acknowledge the fact that she wasn’t a good candidate 🤣🤣.Like her supporters never acknowledge the fact that she avoided the press for the first 45 days of her Campaign.
As a 25 year old former democrat and anti-woke progressive Destiny represents the abysmal failure side of the Democratic Party. We need economic progressives, who are able to say no to bad liberal social policy such as gender transition for minors and teaching people racism in schools.
Neither of them ever concede points. That's what we're missing in modern debating. It's clear that they actually agree with each other on certain issues, but neither are willing to admit it because they feel like it weakens their position. That's bad debating form and certainly contrary to their stated goal of changing people's minds.
Why would they concede points when both feel that they are correct? There was no moment here where one was swayed to the other side. I think Destiny is correct and the facts on the ground support his positions on this. The idea that progressives are sooo popular but they're never able to win any elections anywhere is so asinine.
Unfortunately that's the problem with the left side of politics at the moment, the Trump cult is strong because they are unified behind one idiot. Lefties cant agree to vote for the same candidate, the far left hates the moderate left even though they should be trying to convince them and the moderate left refuse to dive into the far left craziness.
@@jacktalks5008 If you listen to the interview, you'll see that they have a great deal of overlap in their ideas, but because they're approaching this as a debate instead of a discussion, they won't even acknowledge it. They both agree that the Left has better solutions than the Right, that Republicans controlling everything is a disaster, and that money in politics is a massive problem (among many other things).
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SIGN NOW: Do NOT confirm Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense! atadvocacy.com/sph1113?ref=dp
nah dudes getting confirmed. just dont cry again when you lose followers.
You're a weirdo do you realize the voters voted for change not for what you queer for Palestine think why would you want to stop the change that America voted for you don't think Trump voters expected all of his picks
The major problem with this is that the left wing was TOO DIVIDED with inner squabbling, meanwhile the right wing was UNITED in supporting Trump for the most part! You leftists especially those with socialist and progressive bias and ideology, combined with alternative media, anti gov/establishment/mainstream divided the voting base up, contributing to the failure of this election. That plus centrists and other podcasts giving Trump soft balls and undecided voters is what led to your failure, most of the left wing's REFUSAL to unite and support the corp dems and too much time WHINING AND COMPLAINING ABOUT CORP DEMS is what led to this failure!
So next time, after this 4 years of misery under Trump, figure out how to unite the left wing under one banner or it's another Trump win!
where do i sign?
What is wrong with you people
Destinys resting face looks like he's watching the police search his car and there's weed in the glove box but they haven't found it yet.
lmfao
Why tf is that so accurate lmfao
cenk seems to always be on the verge of tears, but does uphold that classic turkish bigotry
@@CryatrixIronic coming from you who's a true bigot
Amazin’
I need Cenk to explain to me why Mark Cuban supporting Kamala supposedly "alienated the working class" while Musk supporting Trump didn't. Like what.
The right sees Musk as a savior, that’s the difference lol.
Good point. I bet it's because mark cuban is an elitist while musk is more casual carl
@@henrywinston6225 I'm assuming that's what you think Cenk will say, Cuban is probably the only down to earth super rich guy I can think.of.
It’s because the voters vote on the feelies. Trump has a much better connection to this. His double digit IQ connects better with the angry white voter. Hell. the angry Hispanic voter too. You are looking for a logical argument here. No. It’s how it looks. Elon is the spaceman and contributes to the American image of a winner. He gets a pass.
@mjr_schneider BECAUSE PEOPLE ALREADY KNOW WHO TRUMP IS. KAMALA HARRIS WAS SUPPOSE TO BE DIFFERENT! Do you get now?
Didnt Kamala talked about rising the minimum wage, lowering drug costs, making housing affordable, etc? Am I in the wrong universe?
She did but she didn't use progressive talking points, call out billionaires or go on that ONE podcast that would have changed the game. At least I assume that's the left-wing response.
@@benwasserman8223Didn’t do Joe Rogan
She did. No one listened nor cared, so we're gonna see the opposite of those now. Bunch of retarded voters.
Yes, but disinformation convinced people it was Trump who was for all those things.
@JosephReviewsFilm Why does that matter? Did trump do MSNBC?
Destiny is evil.
Cenk literally got into a spat with Ana about his right to call Trump a dictator. And now he's blaming everyone for calling him a dictator? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Cenk is a left wing fat Alex jones
@@mistergrim_official he’s an utter buffoon!
The difference is the view and liberals call him a dictator for the silliest things
I would keep in mind that his right to do something doesn't mean he HAS to do it. That was him being his usual hypocritical self.
I didn't hear this. What timestamp?
In this election, there were people that voted for AOC who also voted for Trump.
Yeah, people that don't like the ever-worsening status quo. The Dems have completely alienated workers.
That actually insane. I dunno who would vote for AOC
I believe it's because even though people don't exactly agree with her you know she means well and seems honest.
Can someone explain to how this even happens?
Those voters are insane and can’t be specifically targeted
We need to go in a combatitive direction. Stop playing Mr. nice guy and have someone who fights back rhetorically and with action.
Yes. I agree
💯
Trump is your daddy again, deal with it
Unfortunately we needed that like a year ago. We just need a real progressive for the next election. That is, if we make it to next election.
@@bjarczyk We need someone who works the loopholes. Jon Stewart articulated this perfectly in a recent show.
The funniest thing is that Destiny hates Cenks nephew
@@GaryTurbo doesn’t Destiny support g3n0c1d3?
I'm assuming that's the real reason this conversation even happened
In a pretty unhinged and unhealthy way tbh. But it is hilarious.
@@GaryTurbo because Hasan is an even worse entitled grifter
Rightfully so, Hasan lies through his teeth about Destiny lol
This conversation feels like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Cenk has seen the progressive movement lose everything the last 8 years (minus Biden’s platform), and Cenk still won’t moderate. Lol
That’s why us lifelong democrats went for trump this time lol..
An effective, entirely accurate description of the status quo democratic party Destiny defends.
@@JamesDeanoli I agree. While I am not a fan of Cenk, he does say some common sense things. Destiny never says anything that makes sense.
@@thetruthstrangerthanfictio954 nah Destiny makes sense he is just emotionally retarded if I can make up a term. Dude doesn't understand empathy. I don't watch him often but if he's not Autistic I'll be shocked
David you did a terrific job of mediating this discussion.
I mean . . .Cenk talked 90% of the time.
@@scoobydoobers23 The other guy had nothing worth while to say. 😛
@@RhB-fan51 I don't think Destiny was even bothering. Cenk is articulate as an igneous rock.
Lol, this whole debate is stupid…still pretending their party did not make terrible policies that people clearly sees are bad now…not only that: divided population with racism, misogynie, anti-science, fact checkers (I could go on…)
@@mariokz8055 Oh, do go on ...
Only delusional people and ruthless rightwing grifters are afraid of facts and reality.
But I do concede, in that under and miseducated, media braiwashed, science fearing religious fundy MAGA heartland open racism, misogyny, white supremacy and bitter hate are clearly winning policy propositions!
Apparently human compassion, acceptance, inclusion, universal physical/mental healthcare, a working life compatible with human existence, and striving for the common good is an anathema to a large segment of US voters.
It was clearly the individual feeling the economy was failing for the working class and the voters blamed the current government for it.
LOL- tyt thinks that elon maga moron is going to give him the time of day.
Maga is for WHITES ONLY.
Maga is for WHITES ONLY.
Tyt is also garbage-
Elon won’t look at you.
And the Democrats kept telling us how great everything was despite our own "lived experience". Idiots.
@@aaronsbraga and now these people are sitting back and have no idea what happened or why… Truly clueless
David, great to see these on your channel. These types of debates / discussion need to keep happening more often on the left
There was Uniparty troll Destiny, and then the populist progressive, Cenk.
100% I support this
Does Cenk think that people who vote actually pay attention to campaigns?
That's kinda' like saying "do sports commentators think that people who watch sports actually pay attention to the inner workings of each team?" Some do, some don't. You can be a fan for a team and have very little knowledge of what goes on with them.
People that don’t follow politics broke for Trump by 14 pts.
@@dandotvid "some do, some dont" this is bs and you know it.
@@dandotvid The difference is that sports are entertaining and people actually want to watch them meanwhile the average normie gives no fucks about politics beyond what the media portrays as giving them a better economy and having better vibes, nobody reads or cares about policies which is why Trump never talked about them during his campaign
They do, that's why Kamala and Hilary lost?
Pentagon hasn’t passed an audit in damn near a decade, Destinys trippin. He’s the extremist, neocon..
I don’t think David gets enough credit for being a great debate moderator. Even in the past when he’s had people like Denis Prager on for debates, he doesn’t put in his thumb on the scale too much, and keeps the conversation on track.
He's very, very good.
@@TheColdrush22the moment when he provided clarification about healthcare polling is a perfect example. He should do more of these
Yeah, this is the first time I’ve seen him moderate. I’m super impressed. I usually hate debates because I can’t stand the yelling and talking over top of each other. I love how he guided the responses to keep things on track and narrowed down specific ideas for the reply. This was actually really enjoyable to watch and I feel like I came away having clearly heard each person’s response. Cenk and Destiny were both also refreshingly respectful of the other person’s talking time and listened without interrupting.
Sure but.........that "mustache"......wash your face young man.
Yes much better than the idiot from the UK pierce.
Destiny has no clue, my union voted 90% trump
Same here
> my union voted 90% trump
but trump made it very clear hes anti union? even that whole musk "you fire everyone if they strike!" comment? evidently i have no clue either, can you explain why your colleagues would vote for someone who will destroy union power and worker rights
What union
@@ThatsCrazyBro3752 chicken voting for KFC Hahaha.
IBEW
"Democracy can not work in an Uneducated Society"- Plato
Thankfully we have a republic then?
@@TyCook-s1cyou just proved his point ao incredibly well its hilarious. America us a consitutional republic, and a democracy. Republic in western generally means not having a King. Constitutional means the presidents power is limited by a constitution.
Otherwise there isnt a single democracy in the world. Sweden and England and constitutional monarchies, we are also democracies.
America is so uneducated and irrational, atleast it makes internet alot more entertaining lol.
You forgot a the word democratic in Democratic Republic.
@@mangocrises Constitutional Republic
which is why we need to reform education why are kids learning Spanish and geography over coding and economics. why are civics and home ec not a thing anymore. why dont we have carpentry welding auto mechanics electrical engendering engendering medics philosophy(law) and computer science. 12 year of the same subjects is nonsense. math should be able to teach geometry by the 6 to 7th grade that shouldnt be a highschool subject nor should English
Cenk exploding is like a daily occurrence, he looks like he's about to have a stroke 24/7 it's so fascinating to watch him
The best part is how right he is...
Its really funny how he sets his shit up in a way that makes his head so big too. You can see those veins popping up as the debate goes
He's an entertainer.
Dude above said how he right is, when off the top of the dome he lied about far left winning and saying Britain flips from left wing to right wing back to left wing 😂😂😂
@Tumorcoach
Check their username: americanidyut. Hopefully, they're being sarcastic.
Cenk is 90 percent right
he is usually never right. claims to be progressive but every 4 years he "votes blue no matter who". He also pocketed 20 million & still asks for money from his audience.
No, he is not. Not even close.
@@jamesdavis8731yes he is. Loosing to Trump twice is the clearest example of that.
Just run a candidate that has absolutely no problem appearing anywhere, being interviewed by anyone. The only two people I could think of is Jon Stewart and Pete Buttigieg, and only one of them wants to be President.
Lol. Cenk is a joke by now
That's what Harris did. She showed up in every interview. She went on 60 seconds and the 🍊💩 canceled out.
@@Wynn-fr6ozDidn’t sit down and talk to Joe Rogan for three hours.
@@Wynn-fr6ozand she still lost big 😂hilarious bahahahaha 😂
Walz could do it.
Destiny is the only person I've ever seen that moves their mouth sideways to talk.
It's throwing me off.
He had a speech impediment when he was younger and this is the way he corrected it but yeah it doesn’t look so great
He talks out of the side of his mouth😮😢😊😅
@@emilevangheem6165 He went from having a speech impediment to talking a million miles a minute by wiggling his jaw? Amazing!
He's an amphetamine addict
Too much Adderall, he is always geeking out.
I think Cenk and Destiny both bring some good things to the table. But man, Cenk can really have a hard time listening sometimes, especially at the end. Almost unwilling to understand Destiny (and David’s) takes on the pentagon stuff. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Cenk never actually named anything he wanted to cut, even after being asked and saying he would name something 😂
All 3 have their niches.
I think cenk is advocating the idea that we should go looking for things too cut (sounds a little conservative, but I FWI). Destiny , is concerned about the use of the freed up money under the trump administration. Ignore the way Destiny and Cenk treat each other and we can see some interesting things
@ Fair enough my friend. I think they are two sides of a good coin in all honesty. Agreed.
What Cenk what's saying is how can he propose cuts for a specific things when money is going missing. So essentially if you are missing $400 million or can't account for where it went, the next year's budget should be $400 million less
I understood you cant name the things to cut because the money they lose is not accounted for. Theoretically whatever they couldnt account for should be cut because they apparently didnt need it
Thank you David for having these 2 on.
aww sorry bruh
@@ryuk5673 like. What? Why are you saying sorry to someone that just literally said thank you. Are you confused? 😂
@@TinnyDee no but I’m not gonna answer your question bc ur prob just trying to bait an argument. Use ur brain I bet you can figure it out.
Destiny is ridiculous. Musk bought twitter well before he supported Trump. Just another thing Destiny pulled out of his butt.
Why does Cenk always seem like he’s on the verge of tears
because he cares, destiny is a bigot
Unstable
@@mateovncnt7411he thinks he cares but it is all about his ego and his identity.
@@mateovncnt7411how is Destiny a bigot?
He's high
Cenk talking about the UK going left, then right, then left, uhhhhhh......no the fuck we didn't 😂
Yeah I noticed that. I don't think Destiny had a great grasp of British politics either (and I can't blame them, they don't live here) but yeah I thought the same when I heard Cenk's comments. Destiny is right that it was a rejection of the incumbent, not a vote for the left.
@PaulStargasm Yeah the polling shows it was a collapse in the Conservative vote that led to Labour winning, rather than a massive uptick in Labour votes.
As an aside, I don't think Cenk has any grasp of UK politics beyond the Labour party and even then he's shoe-horning the little he does know into a broader narrative which doesn't fit; whereas, Destiny at least has an accurate general sense but, in contrast, he doesn't fall into the trap of speaking on elements he doesn't really know 🤷
@@PaulStargasmhe asked who rishi sunak was like 2 days ago on stream so yeah not a great grasp
I think you might have misinterpreted Cenk slightly. What he saying is that the people are voting against both the left and the right because the majority of the population are sick of politics as usual. Therefore in one sense they appear to lurch left and right because they switch between left and right parties. Yet the real reason this is happening is because neither party are pursuing economic policies that are popular to the voting majority.
I am not British, but I was scratching my head there too lol. The Tories were in charge for 14 years. It only recently flipped back to Labour.
This is how debates should go unlike when piers Morgan does them. People allowed to get complete sentences in and finish their thoughts without interruption or mockery that especially piers like to do
Piers entertains debates between different political parties. He doesn’t line the panel up with one party to debate amongst themselves. Expecting both debates to produce the same level of courtesy is delusional.
@@richardzammetti7453@richardzammetti7453 Piers Morgan does more right-wing vs left-wing panelists. He constantly interrupts left-wingers and makes rude remarks, yet pampers the Republicans. Piers has shown bias and lacking knowledge when it comes to Trump topics while offering misinformation with right wing media talking points while ignoring actual facts presented
@ your first statement is true. He does favor the right. Everything else you said is the standard delusion that cost the Dems the election.
I’m not sure who is responsible for deleting my last comment, but that’s what Lefties do to protect their delusion. Truly pathetic!
Piers show is just set up for ratings and view.. Like watching a reality TV chit show.
I don't like Cenk, but I think he is right here. The 2020 primary had so much wrong about it. It was only because Trump was so unpopular amid Covid that he lost to Biden. Otherwise, Biden would have definitely lost. Trump received a lot of votes even in that situation. I remember being depressed by the final 2020 vote count even though Biden won. I wanted a sound rejection of Trump and it didn't happen. We shouldn't be surprised by this outcome in 2024.
This was an interesting convo! We should have more of these where it’s “people on the left” disagreeing with each other on nuanced issues like this. Hopefully y’all will have more of these!
Which one was on the left???
@@wddilly8488if you're honestly questioning that you're likely so far "left" that you fell off a cliff.
You should probably stay down there, Respectfully.
Cenk's strongest arguments always ends up being how much he shakes his head.
He was right on just about every point in this interview. And I’m not a big Cenk fan, especially on some of his other issues.
@@micahvandam9658give some specifics.
@@masterchief9291 specifically he was right that Kamala had a lot of momentum after being nominated and choosing Tim Walz, a very progressive governor, as running mate. But then she basically went center right on issues such as immigration and Israel-Palestine and parading around with Dick Cheney. She became establishment and corporate backed and that’s when she lost. She gave up on running on progressive policies.
@@masterchief9291 or when he called Elon’s bluff on cutting government bloat to see if we can make big cuts to Pentagon budgets. Destiny just complains that he doesn’t know what to cut, so I guess don’t even try? I couldn’t quite understand Destiny point there
@@micahvandam9658 To your first comment, this seems like having an answer and searching for the question.. it's too circular for my taste.
It could be as simple as no one pays attention to the VP normally so she was suddenly thrust into the spotlight with a media entourage behind her which soaked up all the positives, and as time went on (as it does for everyone) support wanes.
Saying she went "center right" on [x] isn't really saying anything. Arguably the majority of Americans agree with her position more on what you referenced, but this wasn't a policy based election. At least imo.
I absolutely love this: legitimate discussion spurred on by genuine questions.
Piers needs to take some bloody notes!
Cenk even tempered himself when he didn't get a rise out of Steven.
If you don't encourage the guests to act like monkeys throwing shit, they can actually have constructive discussion.
Who would have thought it possible.
*person who never called Trump Hitler makes good point against trump*
Piers: But he has AURA! And you called him hitler!
I find Piers shit show entertaining.
I don't think the fractured left is going to be able to mend itself in 4 years.
These 3 need a podcast together, both to show that even if you disagree/dislike someone you can come together and talk it out, and it would be entertaining
Replace Cenk with Kyle Kulinski
Destiny is SUPER wrong if you listen to him you will always lose. Trump never ran political office and he won!!!! We need need a celebrity like Jeff Ross the roast master or John Stewart!! Not Joking
@@2311ification Name one thing he is wrong on in this conversation, and provide your proof. I'll wait.
It would devolve into a gay threesome within three episodes
No. Destiny does not deserve a platform at all. He says the n word as a white dude. Openly supports genocide. And has crusaded against cenk's nephew hasan for years now. He's also platformed nazis like Nick fuentes, and they do not call them nazis when Nick fuentes is a holocaust denier and even invited him over to his house.
5:00 The only country in which the incumbent party did not lose its election this year was Mexico. MORENA maintained its majority in both houses of the legislature and the presidency.
Yes but Morena is a fairly NEW party. Mexico was ruled for decades by the same party prior to 2000. Then new parties broke through. Morena is literally a party that began existing like half a decade ago; they are still seen as "not the establishment". Progressives making this point don't understand Mexican history when making this point; I am willing to bet that they don't even know that a President can't run for reelection immediately after winning their first presidential election (it is similar to our term limits but ends after 1 term).
the Labour party in England only won 35% of the votes. They just benefited from the Tory party splitting votes with the farther-right party, leading to big wins for Labour.
Remember when a bunch of politicians got murdered by the cartel during her first campaign? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
@@carson2725you sure love to talk about shit you don't know anything about
36:34 notice how cenk doesn’t answer the question just moves on to the next point. Unfortunately this is the perfect reason why debate go nowhere smh
Why this debate went nowhere or debates in general?
I’m not there yet but Destiny did the same thing in the very first question. “No the Democrats did not abandon the working class because Trump is bad on labor.”
Destiny: I want specific policy related to cutting defense spending
Cenk: Wow, you don't want to cut defense spending?!
You missed the point. The point is destiny didn't say he's for it. He's up in the air about it.
Destiny is floating an idea without actually supporting the idea. What that means is a lot of hot air as usual from the pro corporate side of party.
I used to think Cenk would be the first progressive commentator to flip right. I was wrong. My guys principled as fk. I find my self agreeing with him more and more. Him and Kyle Kulinski.
Destiny makes some good points, but he's just missing the major point.
Same…cenks gone further left as democrats and destiny go further right imo
Why don't they point out that there's a difference between military spending & defense spending.
Because Cenk doesn't actually know anything about defense spending or military spending or much of anything military related. He just remembers the Iraq War, the constant headlines about failed Pentagon audits, all those early 2010s articles about how terrible the F-35 is, and random tidbits of information about former generals going to work in the defense industry (How wild is that? People with knowledge about defense going to work in the defense industry after they retire from the military. Crazy and obscene!) and thinks that the DoD is just some giant grift made to line the pockets of defense executives and politicians
He couldn't name two defense programs he'd want to cut if you asked him. It's all just more of the same under-researched uninformed vibes-bases populist drivel that's poisoned our politics
Pentagon bad!
There is no difference. I think what you are talking about is mandatory vs discretionary spending, which is completely irrelevant other than debunking the claim that we pay more for military than healthcare when it is the opposite. Either way, the military only costs as much as it does because the vast majority of military spending is spent on other countries. In fact if you look at total federal spending, the vast majority of taxpayer dollars goes to foreign countries, or foreigners in America than American purposes. This is why America rarely fights wars that actually directly involve us, we are instead fighting wars of other countries who bribe politicians under the table.
@DaveSmith-cp5kj Military spending is funding all the US bases around the world. Empirical escapades. Dr. Ron Paul tried explaining this to the American ppl when he ran for POTUS. He had more support among on duty soldiers & Veterans than the rest of his opponents combined.
Destiny has the jaw movement of a South Park Canadian....
Hey buddy
Im not your friend buddy! 😂😂
And sounds like Ben Shapiro
TMJ
I'm not your Buddy, Guy@joshuagharis9017
I'm shocked Cenk didn't bring up the fact that Bernie actually did beat Hillary in the primary, he did. And the DNC beat him down and convinced him she was the better candidate.
I supported Katie Porter in the CA Senate primary and there was some intense trolling on her FB page. Someone really wants to squash anyone who talks about corporate greed.
Well, she's known for committing domestic violence and for being a physically abusive nut to her own political staff, so, yeah.
Ding ding ding. Say it louder for the people in the back!
Lol. Porter was in and polling fairly good, and then the farther-Left brought in Rep. Lee to divide the left’s votes like idiots. So they lost.
You sound paranoid. She's genuinely unpopular, at least compared to Schiff. When people attack Schiff, who I strongly support, I never think "it's some shadowy cabal!" This is why progressives always lose- no self-reflection or accountability.
When I was in college I took a class got Organizational Behavior and it was a requirement for Business majors. In that class we learn that ppl hate change. They get comfortable with the status quo. To enact big changes you must create a ‘burning floor’ and once the change is done you must freeze it and get ppl to be comfortable with the new normal. The left needs to understand this dynamic more than anything. And this is why I think pragmatism is critical. Too much change scares ppl
Just take a look at national approval ratings of some of the more progressive policy proposals in the U.S. It clearly shows that the majority of Ameicans are in favour of progressive policies but the democrats either suck at messaging or don't care to message effectively.
No. It scares people who feel they have something to lose. That's just it, we are in a place where to many people no longer feel that way. OBVIOUSLY.
@ multiple studies have shown that ppl tend to be risk averse in general. Which makes enacting changes in organizations very difficult.
Yes. Racism is the norm.
If that was always true, you'd expect them to vote for Biden or Harris. Trump was the change candidate this election. (Change for the worse, but still).
sorry, first. - I like your channel very much - Germany
Me to,Canadian ,only one I watch with interest
I think Kamala lost partly because people didn't actually BELIEVE she was going to do any of those things. Especially when asked she flat out said she wouldn't change anything or do anything different than Joe Biden. That was a really bad answer. I agree with cenk that she ran a great campaign in the beginning and picked Walz which was such a great move. And she said some populist things. But the problem was she was coached out of saying we won't go back. And Walz was coached out of saying "their weird" by consultants who thought it was "too mean" and nobody would like it. When the opposite was true. Then they decided to tour with Liz Cheney and Kamala said more than once "we were going to have the most lethal military in the world". Meanwhile Trump is running around pretending he's anti war and convincing everyone he had no new wars while in office. Of course that's not true. Then she took the Republican far right framing on the border and didn't call out the racist bullshit for what it was. She didn't stand up for trans people or mention them at all or even have a trans person speak at the rally. She didn't differentiate herself from the status quo on the border and the military industrial complex and trans people. Thereby giving people the impression that the Republicans were right on these issues and so I guess I will just vote for the people who mean it. And I don't think she talked ENOUGH about her progressive policies. I think if she had taken like 5 of the most progressive policies policies that Walz had implemented like 12 weeks paid family leave and paid sick days and legalizing marijuana and raising the minimum wage and taxing the rich and fre school lunches and breakfast and just hammered that home constantly all the time she could have won
I think Jon Stewart and others have said that Democrats are too busy responding to narratives about them defined by other people including Republicans rather than creating their own narrative. The border is the perfect example of this. Republicans have been running around freaking out about immigrants and the border crisis 24/7 and blaming black and brown immigrants for all there problems and trans people as well.. so it was polling as a big concerning issue..but that's ONLY because Republicans were freaking out about it everywhere all the time. Democrats could have said hey wait a minute.. they are scapegoating immigrants to divide the working class but those aren't the people to blame for your problems.. Your only worried about it because they told you to worry about it not because those people are dangerous or scary. Then you point out it's the rich billionaires and corporations who are actually to blame. Then you can talk about the real problems at the border and offer humane solutions.
One thing that cenk could have said when they were talking about single payer healthcare and polling is that your Job when running for office is to educate people about certain policies they may not understand. Bernie was really good at that when it came to single payer healthcare. Because the fact is there's a lot of misinformation on corporate media and from conservative media. But when it was explained correctly people supported it versus when it was asked from a conservative perspective. Whenever the choice is between the real Republican and the fake wannabe Republican the real one usually wins. I think Kamala was amazing in the debate and ran a way better campaign than Hillary Clinton. But I also think she made important mistakes in regards to not having a Palestinian speaker or a trans speaker at the DNC among other things I have mentioned above.
The last thing I will say is that I think everyone should go watch interviews on the Mark Thompson show with Greg Palast who's an investigative journalist talking about Jim Crow voting laws and how right wing vigilante groups and people have challenged thousands of votes and had them thrown out. It's usually black people or latinos or Asian Americans. There are two important interviews and he has a free documentary out and has written a bunch of books about this. He's currently trying to count and figure out how many ballots were thrown out and not counted in this race. It's in INSANE amount of ballots. and Trump put in really strict voter id laws and Biden didn't overturn them. So we went into this with one hand tied behind our back so to speak. I think that played a bigger role than people realize. He said there were enough ballots challenged in Nevada to swing the election towards Trump. Votes are still being counted and so Trump barely won the popular vote by like 1.5%. he doesn't have a mandate to do anything!!
And there's a huge amount of people who didn't vote and we have to reach those people. So just a reminder that half the country did NOT vote for a fascist. Trump got less votes than last time. Destiny was sooo ridiculous when he said populism equaled dictatorship. I disagree with cenk on the trans issue. We don't have to throw trans people or immigrants under the bus in order to win elections. The ONLY people obsessed with trans people are the far right. Just call them out with compassion for trans people and clarity and strength and conviction. The way Republicans do when they are wrong about issues. and offer popular progressive policies to win. Kamala didn't run on trans rights or being a woman or latinx or being black or Indian. So that's a disengegous argument. And most of the Democrats who lost congressional or other local races ran to the right on the border and throwing trans people under the bus and didn't run on those issues either. So that's not working either and is reprehensible in my opinion. If we just had conviction and were firm and unapologetic in what we believed and offered popular progressive policies and called out bullshit on the other side unapologetically we would have a way better chance of winning.
Seeing that she is not against Israel, it makes no sense for her to have a Palestinian speaker. A trans speaker would not have done anything at all as they were all on board anyway. I think she should have accepted more interviews, and she should have answered some questions for those she attended. I was all for her at the start, when the rose colored glasses came off and reality sunk in that she was not going to do anything but the same old same old. I don't like Trump as a person but he was the stronger of the candidates that we had to pick from. Desperate times need desperate measures our country looks weak and has lost credibility all over the world. Trump is what is needed now and hopefully he can put some fear in those that destroy our country.
Great showing from both, Steven "Mr.Borelli" Kenneth "Destiny" Bonnell the Second, and Sink Ogre
Wha, wha. Nothing thoughtful to offer, have you.
@defendandprotect-om5hv thoughts; no, head; empty
That's so fucking jokes... @defendandprotec-om5hc - sad you aren't capable of seeing the thoughtfulness provided.
😂
MR.BORELI!
translation of cenyk: “everybody not me is so wrong”
He has a naunced point of view that makes sense. Dems lost because they went corporate
I wondered where hasan learned it from
He’s so far up his own ass, it’s ridiculous.
Also Cenk: everybody who was wrong said the exact same things as me.
Literally all Cenk has to do is moderate a half-dozen of the most maximalist progressive economic policies. He seems too dumb to get that.
When I first started being more politically engaged a few years back, the YT algorithm led me to TYT and debate bros. I thought I got away from them for good... 💀
how do you feel when someone like cenk argues against David Packman 10 months ago saying Biden should drop out and we should have a Democratic primary. And David is against it. Makes me think cenk is more correct than David.
Back to MSNBC 😂😂😂
Our military budget is 10x any nation, whats destiny talking about? Uneeded
“The Young Turks” is slipping out of Cenk.
The most unbearable people on the Internet all in one place😂
Says a nazi scum like you. Go watch conspiracy nuts
It’s incredible lol this is the avengers of jackasses
Hahaha unreal comment
LOL. like the Male version of the View. Throw Mark Cuban in with his TDS lately and this is a party
Cenk is not bad
Destiny got wrecked here.. let’s be honest. But what I like about Cenk is that he represents the very pragmatic, old-school common sense group of liberals, compared to Destiny who embodies the disconnected, highly academic but out of touch segment of liberals. Destiny’s vibe reminds me of the fast-talking snarky college student who completely lacks real world, hands on knowledge - just lofty scholastic theories.
I'm surprised destiny has basic literacy tbh
I think you just disagree with Destiny and agree with Cenk. They both talked past eachother.
I agree just look at trump, he is not smart at all but he got people to vote for him by being a fake “Everyman”
Cenk made some good points. To say that the media doesn't have candidate favorites and doesn't affect elections is hilarious. Most people didn't even know who Bernie was until the middle of the 2020 primaries. Destiny got cooked here
It's always the same thing everyone looking at why people lost using their ideological glasses. Everyone creating a story that fits with their ideology to explain why they lost.
Not saying your wrong, but I'm curious about your take on "why" they lost.
Harris lost because people are stupid. And the billionaire class made it that way.
I mean yeah, humans apply theoretical frameworks to attempt explaining complex issues with no clear answers. You have a better solution?
@@0willow0 Yeah, do that, but only if it advances social justice and the common good.
First time I saw Cenk win over Destiny. Steve is so out of touch with the middle class and union jobs.... it is insane. Hopefully he comes back to reality.
Out of touch? Can you explain betteR?
The idea that Democrats complain that the media is unfair to their party/candidates is WILD!!!!
Yet honest
@@MrLifter20😂😂😂
The media is not unfair to corporate democrats, but it’s certainly unfair to democrats (or independents like Bernie and Dan Osborn) who don’t take corporate money and are actually advocating for economic policies that will materially hurt the wealthy who control society
They did a great job elaborating on the divisive culture of the left. I voted red for my first time this election I probably won’t go back , because I don’t see this changing.
as an outsider, watching you americans debating over which ONE candidate to support is just pure comedy. that's what the lack of ranked choice and mandatory voting do to a country - people supporting the same party foam at the mouth at each other over which one is the most "electable" rather than who actually has better policy & is less corrupt etc. that's how you always end up with a dungbeetle vs a roach in your presidential elections. but noooo. it's too hard to talk about electoral reform that universally benefits the entire country. it's easier to let out some steam at the other "faction" of the party when your party loses. yous are completely and utterly hopeless.
We've long wanted this. The two party system is an entrenched way of this country from the beginning and it's got pros and cons. Instead what you see is parties changing into other parties on a very rapid scale. Within a relatively short period, we've seen the Republican Party become a new almost indistinguishable Maga populist-nationalist party. Your criticism is an easy one to make but do you take effort to ask why or notice anything else going on with it and what steps are needed to change it? So yes, ideally, a lot of us want things we can't have. That change is starting to happen very slowly and it's still possible but in the end, we have the Electoral College winner take all piece as the root cause of it. There's more talk on it than you think but it's not enough yet. It comes up a lot more these days though given the recent trend of things.
@@johngagon yet, every time anyone brings up mandatory voting, most of you always go "but i should have the fReEDoM to choose whether or not to vote". right now, you have a voter turnout of roughly 60%, which means a candidate wins presidency when they get 30% of the vote. 30% of the voting age population is determining who governs 100% of the population. "minority rules" is the opposite of democracy. yet none of you view this as a crisis and still insist on having the ill informed & misguided notion of "freedom" of choosing whether to partisipate in democratic process or not.
it's not just the two party system that's entrenched. it's your collective mindset as well. "the world's most powerful country" is only 29th on the Democracy Index. but you guys just don't care that much. half of you is happy to let the country slide further into authoritarianism as long as the guy they vote for keeps talking tough on perceived/manufactured enemies. the other half is also keen to put the electoral reform talk on hold as long as their candidate wins because they think the system magically becomes less broken when their side wins.
please change.
The electoral reform of which you speak requires a constitutional amendment which takes 2/3 of both chambers in our national legislature, so it is practically impossible
I cannot concentrate on anything else but this guy's jaw
I feel like I took a 30mg aderall just from watching it
You moderated this debate very well. Its refreshing to not hear people talking over each other
Destiny of the democrat establishment's version Ben Shapiro. Faux intellectual.
and both pro israel
Kamala not going on Rogan was disastrous. Made her look like a coward.
Get ready for republican power for the next 20 years
Can you time stamp the cenk meltdown, it's all i'm here for
I feel like Cenk is the only one calling out what is blatantly obvious to everyone except the people embedded in politics
He only started doing it because Ana started first and was proven right.
I feel like that's kinda the reason why he's wrong lol. "People don't feel like they're being represented/politicians aren't doing enough" - this can be true, but
"The people embedded in politics are doing what they can" - this can also be true at the same time.
Even the perfect candidate is not going to have perfect policy when they get elected, because they'll face so much opposition that they will by necessity need to compromise to get flawed-but-good policy to pass.
lol Destiny will never understand.. im still convince he does not even exist in reality.
Dude, Destiny is unsufferable.
I literally don't understand how people can listen to the dude talk for hours every day.
26:20 the most insane statement ive ever heard from destiny. Hate neolibs so much omg
I want you to remember one thing: no matter how much you think you hate neoliberals, you don’t hate them enough.
Populism has undeniably has historically always ended horribly, its a cold take.
@@Tauren110laughes in fdr
Yes Cenk!! 2 very different groups of progressives! I’m in the camp of Bernie-economic progressive! The corporate do-nothing Democrats and the crazies who can’t find one common sense thing to agree on scare me!
Good job Cenk! You mean well! Destiny is more of the same but he means well too just not for me
Human rights aren't common sense? Is common sense an agreement on which marginalized groups the majority can suppress? Human rights are not negotiable.
@ there you go! I’m for gay rights but I’m not for men in women’s sports no matter your surgeries! If we agree special Olympics should exist then why isn’t it common sense that two special categories should exist for those altered to be female presenting or male presenting? It’s crazy batshit positions like these that had solid democrats voting for that hateful man! Paying for surgery to change your sex is elective just like me opting for a boob or bbl or tummy tuck etc. Looking at a male presenting person with full on beard and a deep voice and telling me his pronouns are she and her and asking me to call her Isabella is a mess and would have required a psych evaluation just a few years ago! I’m for protecting the Palestinians but I know it’s complicated and pushing my one candidate to alienate Jews during the election when the alternative is effing Trump is stupid! I personally am sick of the far left social bullshit that is making all progressives seem crazy! I am for protecting human rights but we need to solve our immigration problem! Red States are poor and uneducated but big cities are unsafe! We are paying a fortune to Ukraine and Israel but student loans, healthcare still not solved! The legal immigrants on temporary status from Venezuela, Cuba, Ukraine, Haiti deserves our help but they get free healthcare and food stamps yet most of us don’t have access to these programs! I’m saying we don’t have to compromise on humanity by being stupid ! Outside of your righteous bubble, most people are where I’m at! At some point Dems are gonna have to call bullshit on some wedge issues while delivering true tangibles for everyone! Dirt poor and super rich are the winners albeit skewed. The near poor and middle are about to pop or maybe they did by voting for this lunatic!
@@haydensanford1987 Brainwashed
Destiny could get a job at CNN. He is such a creepy goon.
I'm not watching this whole thing, just responding to Destiny's first statement. Sorry bub, but the Democrats abandoned the working class DECADES AGO. This isn't even a theory or vibes thing, it's documented policy. As manufacturing started going overseas, the Democrats started catering to the upper middle class and higher, because that's where the money was. They became the banking and Wall Street party, and that's perfectly clear when you look at all the legislation they've done over the last four decades.
People love to point out "Oh, Biden did this and this for the working class, he's the most pro-worker president in generations", but when the bar is so low it's basically underground, it's not hard to get over it.
Many of my conservative friends call themselves Kennedy democrats and say they started leaving after Clinton. Clinton sold the party out to Wallstreet and the globalists that the working class on the right is beginning to revolt against. Dems ( Jacksonian KKK party) like Destiny are frigging clueless as to whats happening.
You are one of the many problems with America. The Dems are far better for the middle class the Republicans. I was a Republican for over 30 years, they don't care at all about the middle class. And Biden brought back far more manufacturing than Trump. America is full of idiots - and you appear to be one of them.
It's like he forgot that in 2016 the ONLY reason Bernie lost are the archaic "super delegates" all chose Clinton over him.
Does no one remember that??
Cenk kind of schooled him.
If you ignore facts like cenk getting demolished when he ran. Or Bernie to hillary by millions. Or losing the Hispanic vote then proceedings to say latinx when studies show 95% of Latinos hate that etc.
Lol are you high
This is gonna be great. Pakman please do more like this
Cenk has really been growing on me! I am very center and appreciate guys like him that are not 🐑 he gets a bit emotional sometimes but I trust he means what he says even when I disagree.
Destiny is a 98% 🐑 and I think his medication needs rebalancing at times… but politics aside he seems cool and his personality has gotten him far.
David is bounces around between 50-85% 🐑 and sometimes I think he is wildly inaccurate with his take but his voice is needed and appreciated either way. I think there are times where David is very logical and he is a brilliant at debating his points. I love David’s show when he has conservatives like Vivek on his show. He interviews well and allows people to steel man their positions without interrupting. So many people on the left especially in the media can’t handle an interview like David with self control to ask questions without turning it into a debate. I would love to see David back on PBD’s show again!
I voted Trump but would have likely voted for a democrat that made sense but Kamala wasn’t right for the job. Trump was my 3rd or 4th choice as GOP but I am registered Independent. I would have loved to see Vivek vs Shapiro!
Cenk is always so animated and preaches and goes on forever. I much prefer David Pakman's approach
Sakman is a bum
You mean the guy that was born in a country that has spent more time in charge by authoritarian regimes, moves to the US and now preaches idiocy that I'll lead to political unrest. 😅😅
@Tqoratsos666 I don't judge people where they come from rather on their behaviors. Cenk is a smart guy, but I think he is rude, arrogant, dismissive and doesn't have much empathy.
@@BuckeyeExpat I was actually talking about Pakman, and I'm not judging him on where he comes from, merely what political divisions did to his country of origin and how he's helping seed those same issues here.
@@Tqoratsos666 ok..sorry I misunderstood you. Cenk was also not born in US. I think Pakman gives alot of effort to critically think through issues. He is usually polite and lets people finish their point. Sometimes he is an alarmist I agree. I don't believe or agree with everything he says. But we all have to have critically think about any political pundit left, right or whatever. Still I like Pakman's style over Cenk. Pakman stays cool and he does reflect on both sides of the issue often.
Omg man. I never listened to Destiny before, but christ. He's absolutely clueless. He got sat down by Chenk and he's not even the best at arguing left wing positions. How do people listen to this guy? Embarassing.
I 100% agree. Chunk killed it and made destiny look like a bitch.
What a clickbait title. For Cenk this was barely raising an eyebrow.
Cuckstiny and fudge packman are lame. Cenk kicks ass one of the more cooler liberals
Cenk is turning MAGA.
Super Sayian MAGA Cenk!
@kidgruesome407 idk if he's Maga but he's cool and smart always respected him even if I disagree with alot of his stances
Her mocking Jesus and bringing in mostly black Diddy type celebrities didn’t help as well.
Just rename party to diddycrats
While the Republicans effectively voted for Diddy
So in short you make no sense
She didn't mock Jesus, that clip was spliced together using two different clips.
Diddy type celebrities? That was a stupid statement.
So funny to watch Destiny hide behind his hand when he’s confused.😂😂😂
So funny to watch the lefties losing it. The right has a bright future
So funny to watch his chin move in odd ways
Great conversation, both parties listened to each other and argued on a factual level.
I absolutely agree with Cenks take here.
@David great job moderating.
Bot
But being a mega supporter and voting for Trump they better f****** cut the budget😮
I think people should listen to Cenk more. And I think Pakman agrees.
Cenk agrees with trump deep down he just hates him personally.
One side attacks each other more than they attack their opponents. They also do these attacks in public and not behind closed doors. Maybe that's why they lose?
Republicans do this more than anybody on the planet. This is so dumb
What’re you even talking about? This is what you do after a landslide defeat.
How is it a landslide? She won 19 states. Reagan in 1984 is a landslide.@@blackout07blue
@@blackout07blueFirstly, this was not a landslide defeat. Secondly, the progressives/leftists were being openly critical of the party even before the eelction, and many wouldnt even give Harris their support.
haven't you watched kamala's debate/campaigns? where even after watching quite a few you still have no idea of her policies? and where most of their time is spent on attacking trump??
What’s funny this guy don’t realize he’s the reason why Trump got to be a president again. And others like him
Which guy?
To hear these three talk about cutting government spending when the Democrats by nature are for expanded and bloated government. The government tends to mismanage funds in all areas not just the Pentagon. Look at the billions wasted on Medicare and Medicaid for example. These three just want to see our government burn up our money in other ways.
Democrats who are infamous for believing in bloated government are now going to lecture us on cutting government spending.😂😂😂😂
There are so many areas where we could cut outside of the Pentagon. Since when has government ever been efficient with the use of your money?
Of course Cenk wants to weaken the US military as the lunatic is basically a Hamas supporter.
As a general rule you should avoid using "this guy", when there are two guys discussing things.
EDIT. Especially when it on inspection turns out, that you actually meant the interviewer, and not one of the two guests.
But in the end the only people to blame is us. We deserve the government we vote for. So 50 or 60 percent voting will never get us to where we want to be
The fact that Destiny represents anyone speaks to how insane the donor class of dems have become!
You mean that the guy who loves every war and believes the leftists should be kicked out of the dem party, doens't represent the majority? No way
Cenk sounded a lot better than Destiny in this debate
Destiny sums up exactly the kind of people who would say - "Why are you homeless? Just buy a home!" 😅
The rightward pivot on TYT has been disappointing but Destiny is just so painfully stupid.
I mean no offense but I’m confused as to why ppl watch Destiny for politics? It sounds like he hasn’t worked in the public sector & may not have a college education. That could be fine, but he clearly hasn’t bothered to learn how the different branches of govt work, how taxing & spending work, etc 😬
@@scarletsletter4466creditials are irrelevant, he actually conducts a significant amount of research. He has 8 hour streams where he does nothing but research for debates. People like him because they prefer this over people who react to headlines.
@@slimconfucius How do you spend hours researching and still be wrong? Also most of what he says is just straight up lies.
@@pizzarollking4397 Can you please provide a specific example?
@@slimconfucius "No body cares about the border crisis"
looking at these comments show me why the Democrats lost. Y’all won’t even acknowledge the fact that she wasn’t a good candidate 🤣🤣.Like her supporters never acknowledge the fact that she avoided the press for the first 45 days of her Campaign.
As a 25 year old former democrat and anti-woke progressive Destiny represents the abysmal failure side of the Democratic Party. We need economic progressives, who are able to say no to bad liberal social policy such as gender transition for minors and teaching people racism in schools.
MSNBC and CNN are LIbtard Mind Control for Karens.
I’m a conservative and voted for Trump 3 times lol and I’m also 100% in favor of cutting the military
Neither of them ever concede points. That's what we're missing in modern debating. It's clear that they actually agree with each other on certain issues, but neither are willing to admit it because they feel like it weakens their position. That's bad debating form and certainly contrary to their stated goal of changing people's minds.
Who's supposed to concede what?
What do they agree on? Besides the obvious-not liking Trump, etc., what else do they agree on in terms of the functioning of the Democratic Party?
Why would they concede points when both feel that they are correct? There was no moment here where one was swayed to the other side.
I think Destiny is correct and the facts on the ground support his positions on this. The idea that progressives are sooo popular but they're never able to win any elections anywhere is so asinine.
Unfortunately that's the problem with the left side of politics at the moment, the Trump cult is strong because they are unified behind one idiot.
Lefties cant agree to vote for the same candidate, the far left hates the moderate left even though they should be trying to convince them and the moderate left refuse to dive into the far left craziness.
@@jacktalks5008 If you listen to the interview, you'll see that they have a great deal of overlap in their ideas, but because they're approaching this as a debate instead of a discussion, they won't even acknowledge it. They both agree that the Left has better solutions than the Right, that Republicans controlling everything is a disaster, and that money in politics is a massive problem (among many other things).
Much more enjoyable debate than Piers Morgan. David should do these more often.
David is a calm moderator.
Your Destiny is to lose, period. That guy made a fool of himself. David, just interview Cenk next time.
Destiny your wrong
Ah delusional Desriny, King of Dunning-Kruger, Wikipedia warrior, and body stunt double of ET - he cant stop losing 😂.
The discussion assumes we live in a post misogynist/racist America and does not consider that gender or race may have played a role in Harris's loss.
Because they didnt
Destiny is a corporate sellout
This Destiny is a TV watching clown.