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Another nuance is that George's use of a wheelchair isn't from old age, it's from a wartime injury. When Penny says the part about respecting elders, she's implying that his disability is due to his age, when in reality, he's been living with his disability for most of his life.
yeah there’s a line from evelyn where she says “george used to scamper right up to the roof when it leaked” so i’m assuming he wasn’t injured until maybe middle-aged years? 40s-60s?
@@casseroledragon3277 lol I honestly thought about this too but I couldn’t think of a better and concise name so thank you for giving me the term double buns (writing this while having my hair in legitimate space buns🫶)
That’s cause in the 3/4 view the perspective of her hair is broken. You should be able to see both buns at the 3/4 view, but for whatever reason the sprite artist or character artist decided to ignore the laws of perspective on her hair. I always thought she had a single low bun too.
Hear me out: I think it’s perfectly fine for the player to lose friendship points with Penny when you stick up for George for one reason: it’s realistic. If you stick up for a marginalized community, you may suffer social consequences. It’s worth it to do what’s right, regardless of how it affects your social life. That’s a great lesson for everyone to learn.
Yea. It's not that I don't understand people using the framework of "this option gains you friendship, and this other option loses you friendship, therefore that's the game saying one option is right and the other is wrong," but really it's more of that *character* agreeing or disagreeing with you. While the discussion of medical autonomy is certainly a nuanced one, it's hardly unexpected that Harvey, the one trying to get George to take his advice, is going to be less than pleased with you taking the other side of that debate. Similarly, in this scene, Penny, as a character, clearly thinks that she was in the right for doing what she did, and isn't exactly going to appreciate the pushback, even if she does apologize in the updated scene. It doesn't have to mean that the game itself is taking a side in the debate, it's just expressing what side of it that particular character is on.
I haven’t gotten through the whole thing but this weighs on my mind. It makes sense so many ppl find penny to be boring. Many children of addicts will end up being “boring” or acting invisible because it’s the easiest way getting by in a home like that. Just wanted to say that ❤️
I think this is why I am the way that I am. I was always my dads favorite kid because I learned from a young age to be quite, don't ask for anything, avoid making him upset at any cost, ect. I think this is why I relate to penny so much. I went no contact with him a year and a half ago and my life has been substantially better, if anyone has an abusive parent and made the difficult decision to go no contact, I'm proud of you
Its important to remember that when people say boring, they're saying it as a game character though. Penny's arc might be complex in her own head, but for the player its very simple: you take her away and give her a new life. It is a very basic sort of hero-and-damsel scenario. Then, Penny has a life that the player makes too comfortable, so she never needs to stretch out of her comfort zone.
@@VoidWalkerOblivionmaybe this just speaks to my own lived experience but isn’t that the dream? You are able to give you all she’s ever wanted which you can’t do for most other candidates
I always thought Penny’s interaction with George might also reflect how she usually has to do things for her mother. I have experience with alcoholics and sometimes you have to do things for the good of them without their consent, take care of them through the neglect of themselves. As an ambulatory wheelchair user, I don’t think penny was doing anything malicious to George. You see from her demeanor that’s she’s a very shy, sweet person. She would never do anything harmful purposefully. I think her dislike of the rabbit foot as a gift is an extension of her wish to do no harm, she dislikes it bc an innocent creature died for a bauble. I’ve played stardew when I was able bodied and while being ambulatory, and it’s very interesting to consider my own opinions about it now that I can happen to me.
If that's the rational for the rabbit's foot dislike, the logic kind of breaks if you consider that your perfectly healthy and still alive rabbits have a chance to just conjure one up and leave it in the barn for you.
While I have not had to use a wheelchair for an extended time, I am disabled as well, and while I agree with your statement, I feel like that disregard of other people's wants is still something that she shouldn't do. If a non disabled child was too short to reach into that mailbox, she may have still helped without asking, but she wouldn't have pushed them out of the way. She treats him as more of an object to be kind to than as a person. Especially considering as there's a lot of laws surrounding mail for a reason. What if he had arthritis and she opened his mail without asking? Good intention does not mean free from consequence. Penny should have took a moment to learn from that scene, but instead, she's framed as being in the right.
As a fellow disabled player, it’s intention vs impact. Her intentions were good, but the impact was negative. If it was presented as a learning opportunity for her, it would be better IMO.
Fiona: "I'm not a video essayist. I'm not citing like studies or academic papers or anything." The video: contains multiple in-depth references to articles written by experts and people with lived experiences
“Video essay” implies it’s an essay in video form, and at the most basic level, all you need to have written an essay is a thesis statement, a supporting body, a conclusion, and citations
re: Penny loving sandfish; Pam likes to fish! I always thought maybe Penny has a nice memory of going fishing with Pam back in the day and catching a sandfish. :)
What I also find very interesting about Penny is her crush on Sam; as you said in the video, Jodi never asks Sam for help with any daily task, and I think Penny sees this and thinks it's "desirable", she thinks the perfect family would be the traditional wife who does the chores type of home life (probably because she feels a NEED to be, because of her desire to be perfect and please others, and her home life with Pam), and when Penny starts going out more with the farmer, she loses interest in Sam, because she realizes, she doesn't want to live her life just to please others, she doesn't want to "take care" of her partner, like she did with Pam.
Another layer is that we know that Jodi isn’t exactly happy in her life. I don’t doubt she loves her sons, but I do think she’s miserable in her circumstances. Penny wouldn’t have seen this, which just makes her idealisation of Jodi’s life even sadder.
@@NerdySalemSays - Yet another layer is how sensing Jodi's pain has helped trap Sam in a unique situation of experiencing both adultification and infantilization as he tries to step in as a parent for Vincent with Kent gone and walks on eggshells not to stress Jodi out further even as she oversteps his boundaries. There's so much that Penny has misinterpreted about their family being ideal. Sam loves kids, but a marriage between him and Penny would be disastrous for both of them. She'd become Jodi 2.0, and Sam would be trapped in basically the same situation that he's already in.
I like to think that it reminds her of trips to the desert that she would take as a child with Pam when she was driving the bus. Edit: also, regarding Penny’s hatred of the rabbits foot, it could once again have to do with the desert and Pam. The casino is in the desert, and gambling and heavy drinking do tend to go hand in hand. Gambling is often encouraged by casinos through the supply of free drinks which has the added benefit of lowering inhibitions and self control. The sand fish is an example of a happy memory, perhaps a favorite meal or just time spent together at the pond; and the rabbit’s foot represents the destruction of that peace. Ok I have to get back to watching the video lol, perhaps I’m off the mark 😅
@@GrimmeSharkey i was thinking the same when I saw that! Either Pam maybe took her along on some days, or considering that Pam in game spends most of the day waiting at the Desert, maybe she'd fish and bring home sandfish for dinner.
this is so off topic but everytime your sister called George “the Gentleman” it makes my heart so happy bc he really is he only seems grumpy because he is shy and old fashioned. after a few leeks he is one of my favorite non marriage npc💗💗
I realize this is based on a mod (I'm pretty sure this is not dialogue in the real game) but in SVE after you restore the Community Center, Evelyn has a line on Community Day about how George may verbally dismiss Community Day, but he had trouble going to sleep the night before because he was so excited to hang out with everyone and I literally cried. When I first decided to actually pursue friendship with him I was so thoroughly touched and pleased by the writing in his actual heart events and his new dialogue. He's just brusque in how he talks but he really is a sweetheart. His default setting is "grumpy" but you can often see his intention even through the "rough" dialogue.
no really! he has his moments but he's not any meaner than shane was. and i have times where i genuinely enjoy the guy. he mentions that his grandpa was a farmer, so he was raised around that kind of lifestyle and could probably teach you (the player) a thing or two. so now i headcanon he and my farmer are besties and drink a root beer out in the barn now and again, lol.
no one could ever make me hate george.. he’s literally such a nice guy after you get to know him- i usually slip up giving everyone gifts but i ALWAYS make sure the mullners get their fairy roses and fried mushrooms and complete breakfasts.
Honestly if Pam went for you after that i wouldnt blame her. (she drives a massive bus, after all) In that 'Timeline' you've effectively continued the cycle of divorce and poverty in their family
it would be such a cool mechanic if pam wouldn’t let you buy a bus ticket for a week after you divorced penny or something, it would add more consequences to divorce
@@Exatoro I am systematically seducing, marrying and divorcing everyone in the town. I think I found a mod that allows you to give the kids alcohol and everytime you gift it to them it makes the restof the town hate you. My goal is to destroy the whole town, and be stupidly rich. Why? because I've already done the wholesome stuff, sometimes you need to do bad things.
I'm not arguing that Penny shouldn't have rolled George, but I do think that maybe we're missing some nuance here. George has known Penny for presumably all her life, even if it's at a distance. He'll have heard Pam yelling at her in a drunken stupor. He'll be aware of the family's situation. And while George is grumpy, he isn't a monster. I see his apology not as him condoning what she did, but trying to not snuff out the little light Penny has that's keeping her from turning into her mother. Because you can be angry at what someone did, but still have some understanding toward them.
Ooh omggg I’ve been playing Stardew for like six years but I never thought about this angle. I always forget that all the townsfolk knew each other before our farmer arrived.
In light of your interpretation of his apology, what do you think about George referring to her as "miss" instead of calling her Penny? It always felt weird and very detached/formal for such small town, one where his wife tells you to call her granny immediately. And they've been direct neighbors for Penny's whole life, theoretically.
@@Kartayzyna honestly that bit reminds me of Elliot calling Gus "barkeep" in his 4 heart (2 heart? the one where you get a drink together) event. Both are instances of very bizarrely formal interactions between people that know each other. Elliot has known Gus a much shorter time than George has known Penny, but he's not brand new to town as of the player arriving. It's so bizarre.
@@Kartayzyna George also only leaves his house to go to church and the clinic. I can't imagine he's done much differently in the past 30 years. Penny also calls him "Mr. Mullner," not "George." I don't imagine they're close. I don't imagine they've spoken much. But they HAVE been neighbors all Penny's life, so I also can't imagine George not having some inkling of her situation.
Ok if Lewis said that the bus had been broken for a decade or more despite Penny saying that her mom drove it a few years ago, there could be something problematic about this. You see, a bus can be use in public transportation for so long before it needs to be 'retired'. Maybe that bus always had issues or maybe it had always been broken but because it was still running 'fine' Mayor Lewis just never bother to get it fixed up or get a new bus for Pam. Perhaps the accident that caused Pam to lose her job may not be her fault after all.
I dunno, I like fiona's head canon with the fact he has a truck himself he prolly has never needed it nor really been in a big city so he doesn't see public transportation as important, but I also do not like Lewis I definitely think he is a selfish greedy kinda person and I think he was just oblivious to it breaking down. I mean Morris knew it was broken?? lol
@@PanicLedisko Use it or not, he must have been informed since he is the mayor, transportation of the resident of pelican town should be one of his responsible. Being oblivious to the fact that the bus was broken and should have been replace or fix up is pretty sinister. I know about this because this stuff is regularly done in my country and yeah none of the people who are responsible take bus either, doesn't mean I should have to get onto a broken down bus to work. Well, it's just a headcanon at the end of the day though, so if you like another theory better feel free to go with that
That’s actually an interesting interpretation of the rabbits feet disdain! I took it more specifically as her not liking them because she sees it as cruel. I could totally be wrong for that interpretation though
i always assumed it was for cruelty reasons as well (because i dont like even fake rabbits feet for the same reason) but in universe it doesnt really make sense, just never gave it too much thought
it's not like you have to kill the bunnies to get their feet tho. it's just that sdv bunnies are eldritch abominations against yoba that drop feet somehow.
On the Penny 2 heart thing: I was previously morbidly obese and I had a lot of people (particularly total strangers) wanting to "help" me in ways that did me harm emotionally and physically. - When people believe their intentions are good, and somebody tries to inform them their actions did some kind of harm, and their response is "But my intentions are good!" that is very... sub-optimal. - If the intention is to do good, and the result is some kind of harm, the person has failed in their intention and they need to accept that. It's assumed that the intentions were good... until they start loudly arguing with the person who was harmed in some way that they couldn't possibly have been harmed because of the intentions behind the harm that was done. God forbid you fail to show gratitude for their failed intentions. I super agree with Ruth. Great article. Thanks for making me aware of it.
Although you are probably right, this makes me afraid to offer help because I don't want to accidentally harm someone. And I did that a lot in the past. :,(
@@L16htW4rr10rthis is why I hate the Penny-George drama. She tried to do something for someone she’s known for her whole ass life. People get upset that the mechanic of saying she caused harm is to lose 2 hearts. Realistically, nobody likes being called out, and so this actually works. 2 weeks later, you’ll be back to normal, which is about how long it takes for someone to fully get over a bad situation like this anyway! And besides all of this, if you click the positive or neutral heart option, SHE APOLOGISES ANYWAY. Because, like OP says, she recognises she did harm, and even though her intentions were good, she didn’t mean to. The Penny drama is honestly just hating on straight women, because that’s literally her whole archetype: stay at home mum in a straight relationship. Everyone has a “bad” heart event, but this one is somehow SO bad, it makes her worse than mayor fn Lewis. And what does it actually result in? People not being willing to help others. Great. What a wonderful philosophy.
@@aliasilver_636 I don’t think that most of the people criticizing this scene are actually hating on Penny, and it’s definitely not just “straight woman hatred” against her. From what I’ve seen, most people (like Fiona) have a problem with the way the game frames it. What she did was ableist. Her action caused harm. And yes, her intentions were good, and yes, she does apologize, but again, it’s an issue with the way the game frames it by punishing you for calling her out on it. Also, the dialogue option to call her out implies that the harmful thing she did was helping him by getting the mail, NOT pushing him without permission, which is what the actual problem was. Also, if people see someone saying “Hey maybe don’t push wheelchair users without permission, it’s a violation of their autonomy, it’s rude, and it’s ableist,” and their conclusion is “Well now I just don’t want to help anyone ever,” that’s not the fault of the people calling out ableism, that’s the fault of the people completely missing the point of the discussion. Not to mention this isn’t some silly fandom drama, this has real life consequences. I’m disabled myself and while I don’t use a wheelchair, I’ve experienced being written off as “grumpy” just because I don’t always want people to help me when I’m struggling with something, because it feels like I’m being stripped of what little autonomy and control I have left. For example, I frequently have close relatives insist on doing household chores for me while they’re visiting, saying they just want to help, and will disregard me when I say that I’d rather do it myself because either I have a certain way of doing things or because I just enjoy the task and want to do it. Then when I get upset that they ignored my wishes, they say I’m being ungrateful. If I try to say something like “I do appreciate you trying to help but I wish you would ask instead of insisting, because there are some tasks I genuinely need help with, just not those,” I get ignored because I’m seen as grumpy and miserable. Similar to George, who does appreciate her trying to help but really wishes she hadn’t pushed him, and the game ignores that in favor of sparing Penny’s feelings and continuing to frame George as “the grumpy old man in a wheelchair”. By perpetuating this narrative that any disabled person who gets mad at someone for shoving them out of the way and doing things for them (regardless of their intentions) is just a miserable grump, it gives abled individuals even more room to talk over us when we say “Don’t take away our autonomy and dignity.”
@@aliasilver_636 it's definitely not just 'straight woman hatred', her character has nothing to do with being straight? how is her whole character a 'stay at home mum in a straight relationship' when it depends on the gender the farmer chooses...? i do not understand that point.
As someone who heavily relates to Penny and has a similar mother and similar home life, the way you talked about her made me feel really seen? A lot of fans seem to dislike Penny (not just for the 2h scene). You going into the effects of her home life/relationships and how it impacts and drives her as a character was really nice. Thank you.
Same, it was definitely weird when I realized the person I always married to well part save from her mom but also because I really loved her was just me basically.
My sweet 6yo son loves Penny. He also wants to be a librarian when he grows up. And wears flowers in his hair and dresses. I love that Penny is his favorite.
Wanted to say I'm a 30yr old trans man that used to love wearing flowers in my hair :) I sadly inherited all the balding genes it seems, but this has inspired me to still sometimes tuck a flower behind my ear at least
With her response to "No, I don't want to be tied down with a family.", I thought it reminded her of her dad. Like it's sad but she's glad she knows that before y'all are dating. She doesn't push back cuz her dad felt trapped and there was no way to change that. Like she's glad you at least know yourself enough to not end up with a kid and then flee afterwards
i’m really glad this isn’t just 150 minutes of penny hate omg 😭😭😭 i feel like so many people misunderstand her or find her boring but she’s my perfect farm wife and i love her!!
@@r.i.pmydog7723where did they imply anything like that?? it just sounds like they like her and didnt want to watch a deep dive that hated her. Nothing implying thats objectively wrong, just that the viewing experience would be less enjoyable to them.
I'm also an ambulatory wheelchair user, and I fully agree. It's highly upsetting and rude and violating for someone to just shove you out of the way like a piece of furniture.
Re: 2 heart scene. I started playing the game sometime in 2022 so I had no idea that dialogue option was changed. I used the wiki a lot on my first playthrough and remember being SO confused that we’re “supposed to” tell Penny her actions were kind in order to avoid losing friendship. I’m not physically disabled myself, but I thought it was common sense that it’s inappropriate to push someone’s wheelchair without permission, just like you wouldn’t pick an able-bodied person up and move them elsewhere. In my opinion, I don’t understand why CA decided to venture into what’s clearly unfamiliar territory with this one. There are other options for the cutscene that would still convey the “Penny = kind, George = grumpy” message.
I mean, at the same time, I'm happy to hurt her feelings a little to let her know what she's done is remove autonomy from George. Once she knows, I just have to gift her a little more if I wanted to date her, though it's not happened yet. Points are one thing, morals are another. You can still succeed even if you give her a position check.
@@L16htW4rr10r That's rough, but it's so easy to sympathize with what you know. Prior to being disabled, I just wasn't aware of how much I could do. Hang in there.
In real life, would a person be likely to thank you for calling them a bigot, or would they be offended, even if they *were* a bigot? And just like in real life, having one bad interaction doesn't immediately ruin your friendship forever.
The segment about Penny having a dream about her children flying away - i don't think it has anything to do with Marilda, I think it's more about the Witch's Hut and it's... special ordeals
Yess exactly i was just going to comment this! I think that was a nightmare she had about the player divorcing her and turning their kids into doves, which ties right into her childhood fear of abandonment!!
@@Gurlonyoutube this is also bleak but I kind of wonder if it's also a wish, she maybe wishes she would've been "turned into a dove" too or not be born at all in a weird subconscious way. She maybe also doesn't feel like she's capable of taking care of kids because she doesn't have a healthy basis of comparison?
thank you for going SO in depth with the 2 heart scene. hearing your sister made me cry because that was the most seen i’ve ever felt. you’re doing great things
As a game developer myself, I will add something on to the part about CA shifting off work on ports and netcode to other people. Its very much justified since working with consoles requires a huge time investment into getting licenses for console development kits where you must go to each corporation, request a license, sign several agreements and more work outside of the game development environment, then adjust and modify or even rewrite the game to optimize for hardware that works on entirely different basis of optimization which is required to make a game run decently on it in the first place. Its simply a matter of efficiency since he still needs to work on the more visible aspects of development like updates and new projects, so its unreasonable for him to pour hours of time into something that a majority of the active fanbase will benefit a lot less from. The multiplayer code is in a similar position, though likely handed off to people who are instead experts in those areas in order to ensure the experience is the best it possibly could be. That's my two cents, at least. The rest of the video is pretty good so far. I'll be enjoying your content for a while, it seems.
Shane: hey alcoholism is destroying my life Emily; hey i had a dream about you Stardew valley players: shane is so down to earth and Emily is a whackaloon.
as an ambulatory wheelchair user, THANK YOU (and your sister) for putting so much love and care into your discussion on this topic. i’ve been watching your videos since the very beginning and i’m really touched by the amount of effort you put into such a delicate topic. well done!
Very much reading into it, but I think the reason she loves sandfish is that it reminds her of before Pam lost her job and times were presumably better. I imagine her going out there as a kid 🥺
Yes!!! Because Pam canonically likes to fish. I think it reminds Penny of going out to the desert with her mom & watching her fish. She probably caught a lot of sandfish. 🥺
For some reason I've always thought that Penny must've been one of the first bachelors to have been written. Idk, maybe because the reponse option trees are so detailed and varied. (Also with hiw drastically the player's choices impact the friendship points. It seems to me that in later development's, the game is a lot more forgiving and rewarding in it's approach). This video made me feel even more that that might've been the case
For Lewis’ statue I took it and put it behind my shipping bin so every time he has to get my goods to sell them, he has to look upon the statue I took and know that I know his crimes, and there’s nothing he can do about it. I can’t take credit for the idea because I got it from a RUclips video (I don’t remember which one it’s been a while), but any opportunity to torment Lewis I will take. Anywho Lewis torment aside, very much enjoying all your videos! I found you a couple of weeks ago through the Krobus video (he is my roomie
Lol. I love that. I think I might have to move mine into Sam's private skatepark behind the shipping bin, so Sam can thumb his nose while riding in front of the guy who not only won't pay for new textbooks for Vincent and Jas but also won't invest in facilities like a skatepark. It's no wonder Pelican Town is so small. Why would any new young families want to move to a town where their kids can't get an actual education? Lewis won't even invest in the community center let alone facilities that could attract characters like Sam and his friends to use it and keep it relevant. He's a terrible mayor.
since i learned about the friendship point values i just assumed it was a purposeful choice to have the morally correct answer not line up with the game correct one. my first playthrough i didn’t look anything up for a while so i was giving people incorrect gifts and choosing incorrect dialogue because it’s just what i would say irl but i thought that was just part of the game experience. it shouldn’t be straightforward to make friends, as you gain knowledge and talk to people more they give you clues on what certain characters like and dislike and it fills up the characters info sheet. it’s trial and error until you figure it out so to me it makes sense that sometimes you have to lose hearts to ultimately gain. it’s one interaction with a character you don’t know well yet, of course she’s not gonna enjoy being corrected on a well intentioned action in front of the person she was trying to help, she’d be embarassed i think to make it line up a tiny bit better the option of “ask for consent” could end in penny apologizing, saying she didn’t know but would keep it in mind for next time and thanking you both for educating or something and gaining half points of the game correct answer cuz i think that’s still fits pennys theme without completely changing scene outcome if that makes sense?
I kind of want to weigh in on Pam's alcholism. I am an alcoholic here, 7 years sober at this point. I've always struggled with Pam's events more then with Shane's. I relate pretty intensely to his events which has made empathizing with that storyline easier. It was cathartic. And he tries, there are attempts to heal and find ways to cope. Pam really frustrated me. I think mostly because there doesn't seem to be a willingness to try to be better. Or an understanding of her own culpability. At least not with what we see. I want to clarify that I do understand, very well that poverty and addiction are very hard cycles to break out of. I've lived there I get it. I get it that Pam is a victim of her socieo-econmic status and being a single mother. but Pam never seems to take accountability for her behavior. It's because she's poor, no job. Gets a job, well the trailer. You buy her a house, well yoba will fix it. It's very much h a nuanced conversation but Pam frustrates me
I think it's supposed to be frustrating. I see Shane and Pam as two sides of the same coin. Shane wants to get better, wants to change not only for himself but for his loved ones, especially Jas, he doesn't want her to see him in the state that he's in at the beginning of his arc. Pam, on the other hand, doesn't take responsibility for her actions, blames her addiction on outside factors which is only partially right, and even though she loves her daughter, she takes out all her frustration on Penny. As a parentified child, she reminds me strongly of my mom. Not every character is supposed to have a perfect arc where they fully heal at the end. Pam's behavior is close to many people in real life and oftentimes those people never gain full understanding of their own situation. And yeah, it is frustrating.
@kasiamleczarska9078 absolutely agree with you. She reminds me of a ex-friend of mine that doesn't ever fully realize how her behavior affects others. I think that's a good reason why she frustrates me so much.
@@Pippa87i mean… it could be… rabbits are known to eat their young and have a very quick gestation… Im hoping what I’m suggesting is getting across because saying it properly would make me sad 😂
i watch all of these lovingly and happily and this is a great break down… but deep in my gremlin ass little heart with every video i go “yes one step closer to SHANE”
You know, the 1.4 update fiasco is kind of ironic. The problem with the 2 heart cutscene being that the actions were wrong, but the intentions were good. The discomfort the community has expressed over it led the developer to change it with possible good intentions, but through questionable choices as well. Or maybe the context didn't change because the characters in the game are not meant to morally be right to begin with, just realistic characters with realistic outcomes/situations.
As someone who has suffered from alcoholism and has family that does, I really, really appreciate your gentle touch with her. Many people judge her but she is suffering, and while it doesn’t make her a good person, addiction is a sickness
You ARE a video essayist boo. All I do all day every day is watch video essays. Not all of them site books, some times its just about researching, and you DEFINITLEY do your research. Just don't lower your achievements, you create incredible video essays that keep me invested
i have cptsd from childhood because of family that react a lot like pam in that scene with the "bare minimum" and parentification, could not believe how spot on penny's character design is and its so relatable to me, she's interested in reading and old things/archaeology because they're complete escapes just like i am lol it kinda hurt to realise everyone found her boring, but thinking about it, it makes sense and tracks with my experience of living like that. thanks for this deep dive and address the stuff with george too, i think a lot of it is down to concerned ape choices too.
I really liked your definition about nuance. I think the perspective isn't about George's condition. Penny done fucked up. No question. I think she's on the younger side, 20 sounds accurate. It's impulsive and her personality is flawed. She's too emotional, and other events lean heavily into that. You are also steered into LYING to her face, to save her feelings. And this game hammers...and I mean HAMMERS telling the truth. Except....when it comes to Penny. Why is that? She's flawed and fragile. That's what the game is really saying, if you ask me. George isn't apologizing because he's wrong. He's taking the moral high ground. She's just a kid, in his eyes. It takes him a moment to remember that....and I fucking love George for that. He honestly went up in my estimation because he lied to her....not because it's right or wrong....but because he's the stoic adult in his eyes, and she's just a baby in his. Is it right or wrong? Hell if I know. But he took back some power in that moment.
a part of penny's relationship with sam that i hope you touch on in his video is the secret notes!! you can find sam's holiday shopping list and penny's list of gifts to give people. penny is on sam's list (and abigail is not), but sam is not on penny's lol. sam is on his own list, but i think leaving him off of hers was an intentional choice because vincent repeats and is on both!
55:57 - To add a little more to the conversation about the narrative design choices regarding Penny and our grumpy old man: while I agree that the dialogue change in 1.4 was "good but not enough", I also think that we could take Penny's response and the slap on the wrist of losing FP further as something to analyze. Why do we lose FP with her for this? Did we make her feel stupid? Did we make her feel unappreciated? Did we assume her heart was in the wrong place? What does Penny think we mean by saying that she should've asked first? Even though the dialogue changed, Penny's response on a mechanical level didn't change, which can be interpreted a variety of ways. For all I know you go into this immediately after this time stamp, so oops my bad time to unpause
It's important to remember that Penny, having grown up with a mother like Pam, is probably very sensitive and fragile emotionally. Criticism like what Penny received would be fine with most people, but it'd be soul shattering for someone like Penny. It's also the reason I think why George apologizes also. He recognizes how fragile she is emotionally, and recognizing how much of a miracle it is that she turned out to be such a sweet person, does not want to be the one responsible for destroying that or contributing to the feelings of worthlessness that she is already carrying around.
omg i needed that analysis on the ableism. That scene always felt weird, but i never really undestood the problem. Didn't expected a new perspective on this topic, but im for sure thankful
The wheelchair thing is so weird to me, it's like seeing someone struggling to reach the top shelf and picking them up from behind, its strange and invasive and just really gross. The fact that George ends up apologizing to Penny has always felt really icky. Edit: There are a couple of mods that try to fix this scene on nexus, if this event bothers you I'd recommend trying a few of them out.
Picking them up from behind! Thats such a good analogy I wasnt happy with my thought to liken it to picking someone up whos in your way and moving them 2m to the left. Because pushing something on wheels is so much more violent then that? A lot more can go wrong? But full body shove seems too too violent? Yeah picking them up to reach a shelf up high is perfect
at work, people help me reach tall things at work quite a lot and they don't even have to pick you up for it to feel invasive. just getting up in your personal space to reach it for you without asking first is so rude in my eyes. but then again, i have a massive "personal bubble" and i hate people coming closer than like 10 feet away from me lol
to me it's more weird that people can't accept that Penny is as flawed as the other NPCs and makes poor judgements sometimes. she immediately understands and admits that it was rude. she just didn't realize it in the moment. of course a parentified young woman with a very unwell mom like Pam will be so groomed to help and care that she will inevitably overstep. George had every right to be angry. and he still had the grace to try to comfort her and be understanding because she knows she has a hard life. i see this all the time with "good girl" characters, either she's "too boring" / too perfect, or if she makes a mistake that fits her baggage she's treated as the worst most problematic b*tch. she wasn't even doubling down she pretty much immediately realized her mistake. what more do you want from people?
@@KitKat_293 I think that this would be better if it was a George cutscene instead of a Penny one, he's the one who gets pushed and I think the game should focus more about what's that like for him, it'd make the whole scene much more compelling. I like Penny, I don't think she's a 'problematic b*tch', Im actually quite fond of her, I just don't like how this scene is handled from a gameplay perspective. I understand the frustration about 'good girl' characters, it does get upsetting when people act as though they are not allowed to make mistakes. Totally get where you're coming from
i think most people who dont have a disability aid dont see them as an extension of the person the way the user does. like they DONT think its like picking someone up, they see it like idk holding a door or something. an object interaction. i think thats why they get defensive - there isnt enough education (at least in the US) about disabilities in general so they just dont consider how a wheelchair is more than a tool.
I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user and I want to thank you. These types of issues aren't being talked about enough. A wheelchair is a tool that is an extention of my own body. It prevents me from staying at home all the time. I can't push it myself because my arms aren't capable so my husband is there. If my husband would need to go to the bathroom or do something and I have to wait in my chair, I can't do anything on my own. It can feel terrifying when someone pushes me without my consent. Having no autonomy of my own, I would feel unsafe especially if I don't know where someone might take me. This is where I would use my breaks to stop them but that's a temporary solution. And if someone only has 'good intentions', they get angry when you say 'no' because they think I'm being ungrateful and I'm hurting their ego. I'm also black and hate crimes can make me feel extra vulnerable because I live in a white environment and I have a lot of racist experiences. Even if they seem like they have good intentions, they are still strangers and being autistic I have trouble knowing what someone's intention is. They might pull a prank, they might cause harm, etc. So I feel extra vulnerable with this, but anyone could have trouble with this. It's like when you're a drunk girl at night and your friends are away for a short period like going to the bathroom. A man or a group of men want to 'help' you bring you home. She has trouble expressing her consent or if she says no it would be disregarded because she's drunk. She still has her autonomy but it's being ignored. Maybe those men have good intentions and maybe they don't. Even when they aren't strangers, it can still be unsafe. While Penny wouldn't cause harm, that unsafe feeling of someone pushing you without your consent can be similar. Even when we know it's safe, no means no. Children, elderly and disabled people are often being disregarded when they say no and it's quite sad. I feel bad for George. The game is shaming him for being grumpy because a lot of people in Stardew Valley would have been grumpy in his same situation. I would be grumpy too if I'm being unheard and not being taken seriously. And being in pain all the time, I have to spend a lot of energy to not be moody in order to make people around me feel comfortable, but it's exhausting and I can't blame George that he wants to be himself and just says it like it is. Elderly disabled people still need to give consent. The game punishing the player for calling penny out, which is definitely a game flaw. I notice when I talk about ableistic issues like this, people on the Internet would disregard it like saying 'it's not that deep', or 'you're chronically online' - only because they only focus on the perspective of penny, someone who has good intentions, instead of the disabled person whose autonomy is being disregarded. I feel like, just as in the last video, I agree that the dev might consider to listen to these criticisms about his writing and that he could hire someone to support him. But people romanticise that it's one dude who made the entire game. It's one of the important selling points of the game besides that the game is fun. Penny's personal issues might explain her behaviour but her actions were still ableistic.
Me, an adult parentified child that currently works in elderly care and is watching this while *sewing a quilt* Huh Great video, great mini essay on her two heart scene, looking forward to watching all your videos!
when someone asks an able bodied person if they can help them, there's normally a pause where the able bodied person moves out of the way. George self propels. he could have moved out of the way himself. that's part of the thing I think people aren't getting sometimes? there was *no* need to move him, he could move himself. anyway it sucks because other than this I relate to penny a lot, but as a disabled person, who at some point am going to need a wheelchair, it's hard to get past, when I like everything else about her
I really don't agree that losing friendship points with Penny is a negative thing gameplay wise. Not only does it make sense for her character, but you also *gain* points with George. And just like in real life, making a friend angry doesn't automatically make you not friends anymore; maintaining your friendship with Penny afterwards just makes the entire friendship feel more real and rewarding. The only people who I think would pick the pro-Penny option solely because of gameplay reward are most likely not going to care about the dialogue at all, let alone the moral implications of it; They're probably min-maxing or doing some kind of challenge run.
I think you handled the conversation about the two heart scene well. Penny's intentions can be in the right place, but she could also be wrong at the same time. It's that saying "the road to hell was paved in good intentions."
Is it? Shit, I’ve been known to do that, while also explaining “I don’t mean to make the topic about me, I’m just trying to relate to you.” I swear I have a touch of the tism
@zombiethieves3736 correct, a lot of nerotypical people have traits that are common in autistic people. If you have several of these traits you should seek a medical professional for possible diagnosis. However if you watch multiple of her videos you can see she talks several times about the possibility of being autistic for several reasons, I was simply commenting this to back up the possibility
Really good section on the disability part. I never took George's apology as him being used as a prop or giving in to a fuzzy ablist resolution. I always just assumed that he had a soft spot for a shy girl who he'd seen grow up in their tiny village, and was willing to forgive her for being clueless.
YESSSS!! The eponymous Fiona has returned!! But seriously I'm so glad you're doing Penny because she's such a sweetheart and I feel she gets over looked for being "passive" or "boring" when if you go into it she has flaws and depth! Also yes!! It does in fact fuel my savior complex that I literally can buy her a new house and take her away from her alcoholic mother!! But we don't need to talk about that :D !! (also hell yeah on that sponsorship girl!!)
Nuance does matter because of receptivity to change. Assuming as I do that Penny genuinly thought she was being helpful, then she is receptive to change. It can often be assumed a person who makes an unitentional error would not make the error if they had appropriate knowledge because their intent was not to harm. Arguing that nuance doesn't matter villianizes the ignorant, those who can be made to understand but currently dont. As you said both are true. If both are true then nuance matters more not less. Hurting someone as a genuine error is fundemtally different then hurting them on purpose even though the recieved hurt feels the same. Penny was sorry when she realised she was wrong in the scene itself. Reaching out to her through her appropriate response is much better than making her a better then villian because if she is made to understand future harms are prevented.
A little over halfway way through the video and I've never felt so simultaneously heard and called out when talking about child parentificaion.i don't blame my mom for what happened, we had terrible circumstances, it's all long over now and we've both grown from it. At least now that I have a definitive name for it, I can work on correcting it in myself and not doing it to my own children while simultaneously teaching them to be self-sufficient adults. They should be able to cook, clean, and care for themselves and any family they may have while setting healthy boundaries. Thank you, Fiona. 😊
I'm ambivalent to Penny. But this video made me realize that we are very similar. Parentifacation as a child of a single immigrant parent, parent isn't an alcoholic but we have a toxic family, super shy but also heavily testing the waters with new relationships. I also have adhd and that rejection sensitivity is so real. I actually graduated from my regular therapy sessions recently. It helped me with a lot of this over the past 7 years. I still live with my family but im making steps to be more independent like getting (and paying off) my own car or starting a "move out" fund. Step by step, I'm resolving that codependency with my mom. To all of those in similar situations, we got this!
The segment about the 2 heart scene was so well-worded, deeply considered and nuanced. I am not someone who is physically disabled either, but I think it is so important to speak up about these issues, even when (perhaps especially when) they are tangled up in media that is typically universally beloved. It's refreshing and so worthwhile to have conversations that consider SDV from all angles.
I think the reason Penny loves Sandfish is because it's implied her Mom (Pam) fishes for them to eat. Pam would probably fish at the desert when she works as a bus driver. Pam also fishes at some of the fishing festivals like squid fest and the ice fishing contest!
I relate so much to Penny. Poverty, addiction, trauma, parentification, escaping in books, and I now have multiple disabilities. I so, so appreciate the detail and care with which you've created this video. Edit: minus the kids. I just can't lol.
Penny of all characters having dialouge referencing the game mechanic to remove your kids (turning them into birds via the witch's hut) feels so ominous but also deliberate. I don't think any character talks about having kids except for Penny, or at least nowhere near to the same extent. It gives so many dark implications that I kinda love, ngl. Also I gotta say, Penny looks so much cuter in her front-facing portrait.
I really appreciate your thoughtful and full of nuance criticism of CA and the 2 heart scene in general! I think people tend to put creators on such a removed pedestal that they no longer can be held accountable for their actions. Fixing the dialogue also doesn’t fix the general presentation of George, and specifically George’s disability, solely as a means for other characters development, which feels a bit shallow.
I really feel like the 2h scene could be fixed with george instead saying, "No, Im sorry for my tone, just dont do it again," and then going inside. I think georges apologize either doesn't need to be said or specified. I would love the game to give more george interactions i think he's really sweet when you get to know him. I really want more alex and george interactions especially with Alex's perspective with his sexuality and parents. Edit (extra throughts): About the losing friendship, I understand why it should be mentioned, as it implies that it is the wrong choice and how players make their decision based on the friendship points, but i don't think that's how the game is supposed to be played. The player is supposed to play the game by itself, your not supposed to really know that you lost friendship points. This doesn't take away from the message of the event being wrong and should be changed. I agree with what you said in that when you don't really know someone saying they did something wrong would make them feel weird and potentially not reallg want to take to you, so I kinda like that you lose friendship points since it makes the characters feel real, but it is also very known in the community that everyone uses the wiki during the game, so I feel like that should be taken into consideration when making my opinion. Its weird, I want punishment for making a choice that the characters may not like cause it would make them feel realistic and give my character feel more personal, but I also know this is a game and im really just getting close to them to marry them or get perfection (especially since penny isnt normally my preferred choice - i normally choose one of the guys since im gay and play the male characters)
Meaningful interactions > Metagaming. Agree so much, it shouldn't be a game about 'scoring points' I had no idea people just use a wiki... what a hollow way to experience the game
Yeah I think as a first player, it's based on how the character themselves would feel, not someone from a third perspective. Do I understand what she did? Yeah. Was it still right? No. Did I understand even before I learned the reason why George was in a wheelchair it was wrong and he didn't really have to apologize but understand his thought process in why he might have? Yesy
I usually don’t watch long-form videos all the way through in one go , but it’s just something about your deep dives that makes me just want to sit and listen. I’M SAT!!!
With regard to your discussion of the Harvey 2 heart cutscene: I am almost finished with my doctorate in clinical psychology (in August, yay🎉) and something clinical psychologists can be trained to do is Capacity Evaluation. Basically, we can do assessments with folks to determine if a person has medical decision making capacity. This is a very nuanced and complex kind of testing but one VERY important thing we are looking for is if a patient is able to logic their way through a decision. This can be about whether or not they want surgery or if they want to discontinue medications that are keeping them alive, etc. Unfortunately, sometimes, other medical professionals do say things like “they don’t have their best interest at heart” but to be blunt, they don’t have to. They just have to be able to explain why. Our only job is to make sure that someone is not too sick or otherwise unable to rationally decision make. Even if we don’t think their decision is smart or “best”. We don’t get to decide that for other people. We just make sure they’re thinking clearly. Even if they decide something we wouldn’t decide for ourselves. I just thought this might add an interesting bit of info to this topic. Love your content! ❤
I just wanted to say I love your videos so much.... Usually when I watch a youtube video I just put them on in the backgroud and just do some other thing but when I watch your videos I put them on like a movie and get some snacks. While watching this video it really hit me that you are probably one of my favourite creators and I'm so happy for you that you have sponsorships. While watching your vidoes it's so apparent how much work and care you put into them. I just love them...
i think your breakdown of the 2h cutscene was really good and i appreciate how you made clear your biases from the beginning of the video! this is the first video i'm seeing from you, and i just love how you talk about stardew valley. it's so clear how much you love this game!
Off topic, but I love that you share two of my favorite hobbies: Stardew Valley and crochet! That blanket is beautiful! I’ve been meaning to make a star blanket.
I can relate to Penny a lot and this video made me soooo emotional. I really appreciate how you delved into the parentification and alcoholism and stuff, and it makes me even more excited for the Shane video than I already was!
I do think Penny is very young like 19-20 (as an alcoholics child i had to grow up super fast and at 19-20 I absolutely didn’t seem that young 😂 even at 22 it’s hard to relate to anyone younger than me because of that) Unfortunately i relate alot to penny and absolutely believe the rabbits foot is connected to wishing for your parent to stop but it would need beyond a miracle for that (at least feeling i’ve had)
FIONA!! You should be so proud of this video! The effort and execution and how THOUGHTFUL the points are! I learn something new every time. I always look forward to these deep dives, and I always play SV on my Switch as I listen. Thank you for the research you do for these videos, I’ll join the Discord soon.
2:14:19 this actually isn't true a lot of kids don't have the same experience as their siblings for example, a lot of boys get coddled or treated as the favorite and a lot of girls get pushed to the side or treated like maids because they aren't boys. My childhood was miserable and full of parentification yet my little sister gaslights me and acts like it was better because she's way younger than me and our father was starting to not be an alcoholic at that point so she had a much better childhood. It's a rift between us that she is a delusional person that doesn't want confrontation or focus on what really matters only placating people like Penny. Then she wonders why she only ever has small talk with people and she's not close with anyone well sorry but it takes work and dealing with confrontation and making compromises in order for good relationships that are fulfilling. By her not wanting confrontation, she's just not growing or strengthening relationship with other people she only cultivates fake relationships where she wants to please the other person to make things easier like with my parents. She's the one who makes all of the effort to keep the relationship going. They never check up on me barely talk to me and they were periods of years where they didn't know where I was or what I was doing and clearly didn't care but she like the sun shines out their butts. Then you get my brother for example who was both coddled and told repeatedly that he was the person who needed to take care of my parents when they got older. My parents had four girls before they finally got the boy they always wanted and none of us could ignore that. It was very clear to us that we were chopped liver compared to him just because of the genitals he was born with. Talk about something that we still struggle with today. My brother got much better treatment way more attention. Everything he wanted, and my mom basically waited on him hand and foot. He was the youngest. My dad spent time with him and actually talked to him. My dad and I didn't have much of a relationship at all, and he was downright disrespectful to me many times and clearly did not care about me. Making comments on my body and yelling at me constantly. Strange thing is although all of us sisters have struggled with mental health and s*icide ideation and attempts my brother is the one who succeeded. Ironic isn't it
the fact that some people are using classism to justify penny’s ableism is a wild ps: big congrats on the sponsorship, and the new mic sounds a little crunchy at times
I clicked on this video as soon as I got the notification on Discord! I 100% agree on your tangent on George's treatment in this game. Ablism is a huge issue that still gets left out of a lot of conversations and you outlined this issue more eloquently than I've ever been able to.
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Just brought a shirt from your sisters shop it’s all so pretty!
@@Pippa87Hi Pippa! Thank you so much for your support! Hope you love it 🥰
Thank you Surf Shark for bringing us the good content ❤ Congratulations Fiona 🎉
Another nuance is that George's use of a wheelchair isn't from old age, it's from a wartime injury. When Penny says the part about respecting elders, she's implying that his disability is due to his age, when in reality, he's been living with his disability for most of his life.
Relatively small detail, but not wartime, it's from a mining accident.
@@danieljames1868 And tbf back/leg disabilities could led to a wheelchair in old age without needing one earlier on in life.
@@danieljames1868 an accident that was his fault on top of that.
yeah there’s a line from evelyn where she says “george used to scamper right up to the roof when it leaked” so i’m assuming he wasn’t injured until maybe middle-aged years? 40s-60s?
@@jessicadominguez4244that is incredibly disrespectful to say about a disabled man who went through such a traumatic event
I have poured 700 hours into this game to only now realize Penny actually has space buns and not a singular bun thanks to Fiona👏
front facing penny isn’t real, she can’t hurt you-
To be fair, you only get the front facing Penny portraits if you date and/or marry her, so not everyone will have seen them in their gamethroughs.
I think space buns are specifically on top of the head. Penny just has double buns ❤ Regardless, I had no idea either 😂
@@casseroledragon3277 lol I honestly thought about this too but I couldn’t think of a better and concise name so thank you for giving me the term double buns (writing this while having my hair in legitimate space buns🫶)
That’s cause in the 3/4 view the perspective of her hair is broken. You should be able to see both buns at the 3/4 view, but for whatever reason the sprite artist or character artist decided to ignore the laws of perspective on her hair. I always thought she had a single low bun too.
Hear me out:
I think it’s perfectly fine for the player to lose friendship points with Penny when you stick up for George for one reason: it’s realistic.
If you stick up for a marginalized community, you may suffer social consequences.
It’s worth it to do what’s right, regardless of how it affects your social life. That’s a great lesson for everyone to learn.
Yea. It's not that I don't understand people using the framework of "this option gains you friendship, and this other option loses you friendship, therefore that's the game saying one option is right and the other is wrong," but really it's more of that *character* agreeing or disagreeing with you. While the discussion of medical autonomy is certainly a nuanced one, it's hardly unexpected that Harvey, the one trying to get George to take his advice, is going to be less than pleased with you taking the other side of that debate. Similarly, in this scene, Penny, as a character, clearly thinks that she was in the right for doing what she did, and isn't exactly going to appreciate the pushback, even if she does apologize in the updated scene. It doesn't have to mean that the game itself is taking a side in the debate, it's just expressing what side of it that particular character is on.
I haven’t gotten through the whole thing but this weighs on my mind. It makes sense so many ppl find penny to be boring. Many children of addicts will end up being “boring” or acting invisible because it’s the easiest way getting by in a home like that. Just wanted to say that ❤️
IS THAT WHY I ACT HOW I DO?? both my parents are/were addicts (my mom has since recovered, my dad is still an alcoholic)
Yeah and it’s normal to try to make yourself small, coming off as shy. Penny isn’t my favorite character but I understand why she is the way she is
I think this is why I am the way that I am. I was always my dads favorite kid because I learned from a young age to be quite, don't ask for anything, avoid making him upset at any cost, ect. I think this is why I relate to penny so much. I went no contact with him a year and a half ago and my life has been substantially better, if anyone has an abusive parent and made the difficult decision to go no contact, I'm proud of you
Its important to remember that when people say boring, they're saying it as a game character though. Penny's arc might be complex in her own head, but for the player its very simple: you take her away and give her a new life. It is a very basic sort of hero-and-damsel scenario. Then, Penny has a life that the player makes too comfortable, so she never needs to stretch out of her comfort zone.
@@VoidWalkerOblivionmaybe this just speaks to my own lived experience but isn’t that the dream? You are able to give you all she’s ever wanted which you can’t do for most other candidates
I always thought Penny’s interaction with George might also reflect how she usually has to do things for her mother. I have experience with alcoholics and sometimes you have to do things for the good of them without their consent, take care of them through the neglect of themselves.
As an ambulatory wheelchair user, I don’t think penny was doing anything malicious to George. You see from her demeanor that’s she’s a very shy, sweet person. She would never do anything harmful purposefully.
I think her dislike of the rabbit foot as a gift is an extension of her wish to do no harm, she dislikes it bc an innocent creature died for a bauble.
I’ve played stardew when I was able bodied and while being ambulatory, and it’s very interesting to consider my own opinions about it now that I can happen to me.
If that's the rational for the rabbit's foot dislike, the logic kind of breaks if you consider that your perfectly healthy and still alive rabbits have a chance to just conjure one up and leave it in the barn for you.
While I have not had to use a wheelchair for an extended time, I am disabled as well, and while I agree with your statement, I feel like that disregard of other people's wants is still something that she shouldn't do. If a non disabled child was too short to reach into that mailbox, she may have still helped without asking, but she wouldn't have pushed them out of the way. She treats him as more of an object to be kind to than as a person. Especially considering as there's a lot of laws surrounding mail for a reason. What if he had arthritis and she opened his mail without asking? Good intention does not mean free from consequence. Penny should have took a moment to learn from that scene, but instead, she's framed as being in the right.
As a fellow disabled player, it’s intention vs impact. Her intentions were good, but the impact was negative. If it was presented as a learning opportunity for her, it would be better IMO.
Fiona: "I'm not a video essayist. I'm not citing like studies or academic papers or anything."
The video: contains multiple in-depth references to articles written by experts and people with lived experiences
I was thinking the same thing!
“Video essay” implies it’s an essay in video form, and at the most basic level, all you need to have written an essay is a thesis statement, a supporting body, a conclusion, and citations
Also primary references to the actual game
re: Penny loving sandfish; Pam likes to fish! I always thought maybe Penny has a nice memory of going fishing with Pam back in the day and catching a sandfish. :)
aww i love this
My first thought was "finally!", the second one "We both have autism, haven't we."
Game recognizes Game ✧˖°
Same tho same😂😂😂
help same
Real
🆘
What I also find very interesting about Penny is her crush on Sam; as you said in the video, Jodi never asks Sam for help with any daily task, and I think Penny sees this and thinks it's "desirable", she thinks the perfect family would be the traditional wife who does the chores type of home life (probably because she feels a NEED to be, because of her desire to be perfect and please others, and her home life with Pam), and when Penny starts going out more with the farmer, she loses interest in Sam, because she realizes, she doesn't want to live her life just to please others, she doesn't want to "take care" of her partner, like she did with Pam.
Another layer is that we know that Jodi isn’t exactly happy in her life. I don’t doubt she loves her sons, but I do think she’s miserable in her circumstances. Penny wouldn’t have seen this, which just makes her idealisation of Jodi’s life even sadder.
@@NerdySalemSays - Yet another layer is how sensing Jodi's pain has helped trap Sam in a unique situation of experiencing both adultification and infantilization as he tries to step in as a parent for Vincent with Kent gone and walks on eggshells not to stress Jodi out further even as she oversteps his boundaries. There's so much that Penny has misinterpreted about their family being ideal. Sam loves kids, but a marriage between him and Penny would be disastrous for both of them. She'd become Jodi 2.0, and Sam would be trapped in basically the same situation that he's already in.
Sam would make her feel useful (house chores) and he appears to happy family life, which is what Penny is craving.
BIG OOF.jpg
You find the sandfish in the desert, right? Maybe Penny likes it because it's a reminder that her mom has a job again!
Thats so cute, headcannon accepted
This is an adorable take, I love it
I like to think that it reminds her of trips to the desert that she would take as a child with Pam when she was driving the bus.
Edit: also, regarding Penny’s hatred of the rabbits foot, it could once again have to do with the desert and Pam. The casino is in the desert, and gambling and heavy drinking do tend to go hand in hand. Gambling is often encouraged by casinos through the supply of free drinks which has the added benefit of lowering inhibitions and self control. The sand fish is an example of a happy memory, perhaps a favorite meal or just time spent together at the pond; and the rabbit’s foot represents the destruction of that peace. Ok I have to get back to watching the video lol, perhaps I’m off the mark 😅
@@GrimmeSharkey i was thinking the same when I saw that! Either Pam maybe took her along on some days, or considering that Pam in game spends most of the day waiting at the Desert, maybe she'd fish and bring home sandfish for dinner.
I always thought it was because she talks about how she’s never been outside of Pelican Town and this was a way to see the outside world.
this is so off topic but everytime your sister called George “the Gentleman” it makes my heart so happy bc he really is he only seems grumpy because he is shy and old fashioned. after a few leeks he is one of my favorite non marriage npc💗💗
I realize this is based on a mod (I'm pretty sure this is not dialogue in the real game) but in SVE after you restore the Community Center, Evelyn has a line on Community Day about how George may verbally dismiss Community Day, but he had trouble going to sleep the night before because he was so excited to hang out with everyone and I literally cried. When I first decided to actually pursue friendship with him I was so thoroughly touched and pleased by the writing in his actual heart events and his new dialogue. He's just brusque in how he talks but he really is a sweetheart. His default setting is "grumpy" but you can often see his intention even through the "rough" dialogue.
no really! he has his moments but he's not any meaner than shane was. and i have times where i genuinely enjoy the guy. he mentions that his grandpa was a farmer, so he was raised around that kind of lifestyle and could probably teach you (the player) a thing or two. so now i headcanon he and my farmer are besties and drink a root beer out in the barn now and again, lol.
no one could ever make me hate george.. he’s literally such a nice guy after you get to know him- i usually slip up giving everyone gifts but i ALWAYS make sure the mullners get their fairy roses and fried mushrooms and complete breakfasts.
He might also suffer from chronic pain from the mines injury.
he might hate crime me, but at least he's based tbh
I'd like to add that Pam comments when you divorce Penny: "What did you do!? Penny came crying last night"
Honestly if Pam went for you after that i wouldnt blame her. (she drives a massive bus, after all) In that 'Timeline' you've effectively continued the cycle of divorce and poverty in their family
@@neilchambers470 I did this no regrets
it would be such a cool mechanic if pam wouldn’t let you buy a bus ticket for a week after you divorced penny or something, it would add more consequences to divorce
Thats so heartbreaking 😞
@@Exatoro I am systematically seducing, marrying and divorcing everyone in the town. I think I found a mod that allows you to give the kids alcohol and everytime you gift it to them it makes the restof the town hate you. My goal is to destroy the whole town, and be stupidly rich. Why? because I've already done the wholesome stuff, sometimes you need to do bad things.
I'm not arguing that Penny shouldn't have rolled George, but I do think that maybe we're missing some nuance here. George has known Penny for presumably all her life, even if it's at a distance. He'll have heard Pam yelling at her in a drunken stupor. He'll be aware of the family's situation. And while George is grumpy, he isn't a monster. I see his apology not as him condoning what she did, but trying to not snuff out the little light Penny has that's keeping her from turning into her mother. Because you can be angry at what someone did, but still have some understanding toward them.
Ooh omggg I’ve been playing Stardew for like six years but I never thought about this angle. I always forget that all the townsfolk knew each other before our farmer arrived.
Then that has to be explicit. George saying something referencing that. The problem isnt the characters, they’re not real, the problem is the writing.
In light of your interpretation of his apology, what do you think about George referring to her as "miss" instead of calling her Penny? It always felt weird and very detached/formal for such small town, one where his wife tells you to call her granny immediately. And they've been direct neighbors for Penny's whole life, theoretically.
@@Kartayzyna honestly that bit reminds me of Elliot calling Gus "barkeep" in his 4 heart (2 heart? the one where you get a drink together) event. Both are instances of very bizarrely formal interactions between people that know each other. Elliot has known Gus a much shorter time than George has known Penny, but he's not brand new to town as of the player arriving. It's so bizarre.
@@Kartayzyna George also only leaves his house to go to church and the clinic. I can't imagine he's done much differently in the past 30 years. Penny also calls him "Mr. Mullner," not "George." I don't imagine they're close. I don't imagine they've spoken much. But they HAVE been neighbors all Penny's life, so I also can't imagine George not having some inkling of her situation.
My special interest is hearing people info dump about their special interest and today I have been blessed.
💯
Nothing beats listening to people talk endlessly about what they love!
Info dumping > small talk
YES there's literally nothing better
Honestly same... I'll watch a 4 hour video of someone talking about a topic that I have no idea about just cause the person speaking is passionate
Ok if Lewis said that the bus had been broken for a decade or more despite Penny saying that her mom drove it a few years ago, there could be something problematic about this. You see, a bus can be use in public transportation for so long before it needs to be 'retired'. Maybe that bus always had issues or maybe it had always been broken but because it was still running 'fine' Mayor Lewis just never bother to get it fixed up or get a new bus for Pam. Perhaps the accident that caused Pam to lose her job may not be her fault after all.
wait i actually love this. headcanon absorbed
I dunno, I like fiona's head canon with the fact he has a truck himself he prolly has never needed it nor really been in a big city so he doesn't see public transportation as important, but I also do not like Lewis I definitely think he is a selfish greedy kinda person and I think he was just oblivious to it breaking down. I mean Morris knew it was broken?? lol
@@PanicLedisko Use it or not, he must have been informed since he is the mayor, transportation of the resident of pelican town should be one of his responsible. Being oblivious to the fact that the bus was broken and should have been replace or fix up is pretty sinister. I know about this because this stuff is regularly done in my country and yeah none of the people who are responsible take bus either, doesn't mean I should have to get onto a broken down bus to work.
Well, it's just a headcanon at the end of the day though, so if you like another theory better feel free to go with that
I pray for an update where we can replace lewis as mayor😭
@@lazyjustice or at least make him go public about his relationship with Marnie
Or let me date Marnie. She is my second favourite after Penny lel
@@L16htW4rr10rright!! Shes so sweet
We need a "Dammit Clint stop flirting with my wife" mod that's just "Dammit Lewis stop fucking up the town"
Honestly? Town budget allocation/resource management as mayor actually sounds busting for the game.
That’s actually an interesting interpretation of the rabbits feet disdain! I took it more specifically as her not liking them because she sees it as cruel. I could totally be wrong for that interpretation though
but no bunbuns were harmed in the making of my rabbit's feet, Fluffbutt just drops them every so often.
i always assumed it was for cruelty reasons as well (because i dont like even fake rabbits feet for the same reason) but in universe it doesnt really make sense, just never gave it too much thought
@@endless_delI don’t like fake ones either for the same reason.
it's not like you have to kill the bunnies to get their feet tho. it's just that sdv bunnies are eldritch abominations against yoba that drop feet somehow.
@@lynn4840 I've always pictured it as like a snake shedding, like the SDV rabbits just shed their feet on occasion, kinda weird, but eh
On the Penny 2 heart thing: I was previously morbidly obese and I had a lot of people (particularly total strangers) wanting to "help" me in ways that did me harm emotionally and physically.
- When people believe their intentions are good, and somebody tries to inform them their actions did some kind of harm, and their response is "But my intentions are good!" that is very... sub-optimal.
- If the intention is to do good, and the result is some kind of harm, the person has failed in their intention and they need to accept that. It's assumed that the intentions were good... until they start loudly arguing with the person who was harmed in some way that they couldn't possibly have been harmed because of the intentions behind the harm that was done.
God forbid you fail to show gratitude for their failed intentions.
I super agree with Ruth. Great article. Thanks for making me aware of it.
Although you are probably right, this makes me afraid to offer help because I don't want to accidentally harm someone. And I did that a lot in the past. :,(
@@L16htW4rr10rthis is why I hate the Penny-George drama. She tried to do something for someone she’s known for her whole ass life. People get upset that the mechanic of saying she caused harm is to lose 2 hearts. Realistically, nobody likes being called out, and so this actually works. 2 weeks later, you’ll be back to normal, which is about how long it takes for someone to fully get over a bad situation like this anyway!
And besides all of this, if you click the positive or neutral heart option, SHE APOLOGISES ANYWAY. Because, like OP says, she recognises she did harm, and even though her intentions were good, she didn’t mean to.
The Penny drama is honestly just hating on straight women, because that’s literally her whole archetype: stay at home mum in a straight relationship. Everyone has a “bad” heart event, but this one is somehow SO bad, it makes her worse than mayor fn Lewis. And what does it actually result in? People not being willing to help others. Great. What a wonderful philosophy.
@@aliasilver_636 I don’t think that most of the people criticizing this scene are actually hating on Penny, and it’s definitely not just “straight woman hatred” against her. From what I’ve seen, most people (like Fiona) have a problem with the way the game frames it.
What she did was ableist. Her action caused harm. And yes, her intentions were good, and yes, she does apologize, but again, it’s an issue with the way the game frames it by punishing you for calling her out on it. Also, the dialogue option to call her out implies that the harmful thing she did was helping him by getting the mail, NOT pushing him without permission, which is what the actual problem was.
Also, if people see someone saying “Hey maybe don’t push wheelchair users without permission, it’s a violation of their autonomy, it’s rude, and it’s ableist,” and their conclusion is “Well now I just don’t want to help anyone ever,” that’s not the fault of the people calling out ableism, that’s the fault of the people completely missing the point of the discussion.
Not to mention this isn’t some silly fandom drama, this has real life consequences. I’m disabled myself and while I don’t use a wheelchair, I’ve experienced being written off as “grumpy” just because I don’t always want people to help me when I’m struggling with something, because it feels like I’m being stripped of what little autonomy and control I have left. For example, I frequently have close relatives insist on doing household chores for me while they’re visiting, saying they just want to help, and will disregard me when I say that I’d rather do it myself because either I have a certain way of doing things or because I just enjoy the task and want to do it. Then when I get upset that they ignored my wishes, they say I’m being ungrateful. If I try to say something like “I do appreciate you trying to help but I wish you would ask instead of insisting, because there are some tasks I genuinely need help with, just not those,” I get ignored because I’m seen as grumpy and miserable. Similar to George, who does appreciate her trying to help but really wishes she hadn’t pushed him, and the game ignores that in favor of sparing Penny’s feelings and continuing to frame George as “the grumpy old man in a wheelchair”. By perpetuating this narrative that any disabled person who gets mad at someone for shoving them out of the way and doing things for them (regardless of their intentions) is just a miserable grump, it gives abled individuals even more room to talk over us when we say “Don’t take away our autonomy and dignity.”
@@aliasilver_636 it's definitely not just 'straight woman hatred', her character has nothing to do with being straight? how is her whole character a 'stay at home mum in a straight relationship' when it depends on the gender the farmer chooses...? i do not understand that point.
As someone who heavily relates to Penny and has a similar mother and similar home life, the way you talked about her made me feel really seen? A lot of fans seem to dislike Penny (not just for the 2h scene). You going into the effects of her home life/relationships and how it impacts and drives her as a character was really nice. Thank you.
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Same, it was definitely weird when I realized the person I always married to well part save from her mom but also because I really loved her was just me basically.
@@PanicLedisko yeah, I was doing the same thing and realized it fairly recently like oh…self love…?
@@PanicLediskoI love that girl. The analysis of her arc in this video is actually giving me the gift of self awareness.
My sweet 6yo son loves Penny. He also wants to be a librarian when he grows up. And wears flowers in his hair and dresses. I love that Penny is his favorite.
Yes! More parents letting their boys do 'girl' things! Good on you!
Wanted to say I'm a 30yr old trans man that used to love wearing flowers in my hair :) I sadly inherited all the balding genes it seems, but this has inspired me to still sometimes tuck a flower behind my ear at least
That is very sweet, best of wishes to you both.
Ohh has he watched Matilda, yet? I bet he'd be all about Miss Honey
That's so sweet! And I'm really happy you let him have fun and dress up the way he wants :)
With her response to "No, I don't want to be tied down with a family.", I thought it reminded her of her dad. Like it's sad but she's glad she knows that before y'all are dating. She doesn't push back cuz her dad felt trapped and there was no way to change that. Like she's glad you at least know yourself enough to not end up with a kid and then flee afterwards
i’m really glad this isn’t just 150 minutes of penny hate omg 😭😭😭 i feel like so many people misunderstand her or find her boring but she’s my perfect farm wife and i love her!!
She is not a real person and when people hate her they hate the writing stop treating fictional characters hate like there hating real people
@@r.i.pmydog7723where did they imply anything like that?? it just sounds like they like her and didnt want to watch a deep dive that hated her. Nothing implying thats objectively wrong, just that the viewing experience would be less enjoyable to them.
@@r.i.pmydog7723your brain doesn’t work well :/
I don’t hate her or misunderstand her but I don’t interact with her much because we don’t have much in common. 🤷🏻
@@haileykate8216 are you ok
I'm also an ambulatory wheelchair user, and I fully agree. It's highly upsetting and rude and violating for someone to just shove you out of the way like a piece of furniture.
Re: 2 heart scene. I started playing the game sometime in 2022 so I had no idea that dialogue option was changed. I used the wiki a lot on my first playthrough and remember being SO confused that we’re “supposed to” tell Penny her actions were kind in order to avoid losing friendship. I’m not physically disabled myself, but I thought it was common sense that it’s inappropriate to push someone’s wheelchair without permission, just like you wouldn’t pick an able-bodied person up and move them elsewhere. In my opinion, I don’t understand why CA decided to venture into what’s clearly unfamiliar territory with this one. There are other options for the cutscene that would still convey the “Penny = kind, George = grumpy” message.
I mean, at the same time, I'm happy to hurt her feelings a little to let her know what she's done is remove autonomy from George. Once she knows, I just have to gift her a little more if I wanted to date her, though it's not happened yet. Points are one thing, morals are another. You can still succeed even if you give her a position check.
And then there's me who didn't realize it was something bad and take Penny's side. U_u
@@L16htW4rr10r That's rough, but it's so easy to sympathize with what you know. Prior to being disabled, I just wasn't aware of how much I could do. Hang in there.
In real life, would a person be likely to thank you for calling them a bigot, or would they be offended, even if they *were* a bigot? And just like in real life, having one bad interaction doesn't immediately ruin your friendship forever.
I felt the exact same! It felt incredibly gross for the game to punish you for making the right choice. Massive side-eye to CA for that one.
The segment about Penny having a dream about her children flying away - i don't think it has anything to do with Marilda, I think it's more about the Witch's Hut and it's... special ordeals
Seems to be a lot of doves this time of year. 🤔😂
Plot twist: Penny had a sibling, and but she only has a vague memory of them turning into a dove because she was too young to really understand
Yess exactly i was just going to comment this! I think that was a nightmare she had about the player divorcing her and turning their kids into doves, which ties right into her childhood fear of abandonment!!
@@NerdySalemSays That's messed up I wonder if her dad did it.
@@Gurlonyoutube this is also bleak but I kind of wonder if it's also a wish, she maybe wishes she would've been "turned into a dove" too or not be born at all in a weird subconscious way. She maybe also doesn't feel like she's capable of taking care of kids because she doesn't have a healthy basis of comparison?
Man, I relate to Penny so much. The way I teared up when you said that bit from the article “There is no one else.” Parentification sucks
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thank you for going SO in depth with the 2 heart scene. hearing your sister made me cry because that was the most seen i’ve ever felt. you’re doing great things
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[My Longest Yeah Boy Ever]
hahahaha
yeah boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
@@fionasangsteryou’re my best friend I really like you ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
As a game developer myself, I will add something on to the part about CA shifting off work on ports and netcode to other people. Its very much justified since working with consoles requires a huge time investment into getting licenses for console development kits where you must go to each corporation, request a license, sign several agreements and more work outside of the game development environment, then adjust and modify or even rewrite the game to optimize for hardware that works on entirely different basis of optimization which is required to make a game run decently on it in the first place. Its simply a matter of efficiency since he still needs to work on the more visible aspects of development like updates and new projects, so its unreasonable for him to pour hours of time into something that a majority of the active fanbase will benefit a lot less from. The multiplayer code is in a similar position, though likely handed off to people who are instead experts in those areas in order to ensure the experience is the best it possibly could be. That's my two cents, at least. The rest of the video is pretty good so far. I'll be enjoying your content for a while, it seems.
Babe wake up a new Fiona Sangster video just dropped, get the Complete Breakfast ready
Complete breakfast + Glazed yams + Triple shot espresso>>
Pimp-ass Willy Wonka Fit had me Cackling
with every video you make, i’m hyping up the inevitable 4hr epic that will be shane’s video lol
Shane: hey alcoholism is destroying my life
Emily; hey i had a dream about you
Stardew valley players: shane is so down to earth and Emily is a whackaloon.
as an ambulatory wheelchair user, THANK YOU (and your sister) for putting so much love and care into your discussion on this topic. i’ve been watching your videos since the very beginning and i’m really touched by the amount of effort you put into such a delicate topic. well done!
thank you!
Very much reading into it, but I think the reason she loves sandfish is that it reminds her of before Pam lost her job and times were presumably better. I imagine her going out there as a kid 🥺
Yes!!! Because Pam canonically likes to fish. I think it reminds Penny of going out to the desert with her mom & watching her fish. She probably caught a lot of sandfish. 🥺
For some reason I've always thought that Penny must've been one of the first bachelors to have been written. Idk, maybe because the reponse option trees are so detailed and varied. (Also with hiw drastically the player's choices impact the friendship points. It seems to me that in later development's, the game is a lot more forgiving and rewarding in it's approach). This video made me feel even more that that might've been the case
huh, now I’m honestly really curious what the order of writing was. I wish someone would’ve asked in that AMA lol
For Lewis’ statue I took it and put it behind my shipping bin so every time he has to get my goods to sell them, he has to look upon the statue I took and know that I know his crimes, and there’s nothing he can do about it. I can’t take credit for the idea because I got it from a RUclips video (I don’t remember which one it’s been a while), but any opportunity to torment Lewis I will take.
Anywho Lewis torment aside, very much enjoying all your videos! I found you a couple of weeks ago through the Krobus video (he is my roomie
Lol. I love that. I think I might have to move mine into Sam's private skatepark behind the shipping bin, so Sam can thumb his nose while riding in front of the guy who not only won't pay for new textbooks for Vincent and Jas but also won't invest in facilities like a skatepark.
It's no wonder Pelican Town is so small. Why would any new young families want to move to a town where their kids can't get an actual education? Lewis won't even invest in the community center let alone facilities that could attract characters like Sam and his friends to use it and keep it relevant. He's a terrible mayor.
since i learned about the friendship point values i just assumed it was a purposeful choice to have the morally correct answer not line up with the game correct one. my first playthrough i didn’t look anything up for a while so i was giving people incorrect gifts and choosing incorrect dialogue because it’s just what i would say irl but i thought that was just part of the game experience. it shouldn’t be straightforward to make friends, as you gain knowledge and talk to people more they give you clues on what certain characters like and dislike and it fills up the characters info sheet. it’s trial and error until you figure it out so to me it makes sense that sometimes you have to lose hearts to ultimately gain. it’s one interaction with a character you don’t know well yet, of course she’s not gonna enjoy being corrected on a well intentioned action in front of the person she was trying to help, she’d be embarassed
i think to make it line up a tiny bit better the option of “ask for consent” could end in penny apologizing, saying she didn’t know but would keep it in mind for next time and thanking you both for educating or something and gaining half points of the game correct answer cuz i think that’s still fits pennys theme without completely changing scene outcome if that makes sense?
I kind of want to weigh in on Pam's alcholism. I am an alcoholic here, 7 years sober at this point.
I've always struggled with Pam's events more then with Shane's. I relate pretty intensely to his events which has made empathizing with that storyline easier. It was cathartic. And he tries, there are attempts to heal and find ways to cope.
Pam really frustrated me. I think mostly because there doesn't seem to be a willingness to try to be better. Or an understanding of her own culpability. At least not with what we see.
I want to clarify that I do understand, very well that poverty and addiction are very hard cycles to break out of. I've lived there I get it.
I get it that Pam is a victim of her socieo-econmic status and being a single mother. but Pam never seems to take accountability for her behavior.
It's because she's poor, no job. Gets a job, well the trailer. You buy her a house, well yoba will fix it.
It's very much h a nuanced conversation but Pam frustrates me
I think it's supposed to be frustrating. I see Shane and Pam as two sides of the same coin.
Shane wants to get better, wants to change not only for himself but for his loved ones, especially Jas, he doesn't want her to see him in the state that he's in at the beginning of his arc.
Pam, on the other hand, doesn't take responsibility for her actions, blames her addiction on outside factors which is only partially right, and even though she loves her daughter, she takes out all her frustration on Penny. As a parentified child, she reminds me strongly of my mom.
Not every character is supposed to have a perfect arc where they fully heal at the end. Pam's behavior is close to many people in real life and oftentimes those people never gain full understanding of their own situation. And yeah, it is frustrating.
@kasiamleczarska9078 absolutely agree with you. She reminds me of a ex-friend of mine that doesn't ever fully realize how her behavior affects others. I think that's a good reason why she frustrates me so much.
Thank you for bringing up the rabbit's foot thing with Penny. I was so shocked at her response because of how sweet she usually is.
I saw somewhere that maybe Penny doesn’t realise that the foot isn’t cut off the rabbit so she sees it as cruel.
@@Pippa87 yeah that's what I assumed too. Still caught me off guard.
@@Pippa87i mean… it could be… rabbits are known to eat their young and have a very quick gestation… Im hoping what I’m suggesting is getting across because saying it properly would make me sad 😂
i watch all of these lovingly and happily and this is a great break down…
but deep in my gremlin ass little heart with every video i go “yes one step closer to SHANE”
honestly. me too
You know, the 1.4 update fiasco is kind of ironic. The problem with the 2 heart cutscene being that the actions were wrong, but the intentions were good. The discomfort the community has expressed over it led the developer to change it with possible good intentions, but through questionable choices as well. Or maybe the context didn't change because the characters in the game are not meant to morally be right to begin with, just realistic characters with realistic outcomes/situations.
As someone who has suffered from alcoholism and has family that does, I really, really appreciate your gentle touch with her. Many people judge her but she is suffering, and while it doesn’t make her a good person, addiction is a sickness
The X Files music coming on for Lewis and co is sending me😂💀
This video taught me the game starts by introducing you to the actual villains of Pelican Town
You ARE a video essayist boo. All I do all day every day is watch video essays. Not all of them site books, some times its just about researching, and you DEFINITLEY do your research. Just don't lower your achievements, you create incredible video essays that keep me invested
i have cptsd from childhood because of family that react a lot like pam in that scene with the "bare minimum" and parentification, could not believe how spot on penny's character design is and its so relatable to me, she's interested in reading and old things/archaeology because they're complete escapes just like i am lol it kinda hurt to realise everyone found her boring, but thinking about it, it makes sense and tracks with my experience of living like that. thanks for this deep dive and address the stuff with george too, i think a lot of it is down to concerned ape choices too.
I really liked your definition about nuance. I think the perspective isn't about George's condition. Penny done fucked up. No question. I think she's on the younger side, 20 sounds accurate.
It's impulsive and her personality is flawed. She's too emotional, and other events lean heavily into that. You are also steered into LYING to her face, to save her feelings. And this game hammers...and I mean HAMMERS telling the truth. Except....when it comes to Penny. Why is that? She's flawed and fragile. That's what the game is really saying, if you ask me. George isn't apologizing because he's wrong. He's taking the moral high ground. She's just a kid, in his eyes. It takes him a moment to remember that....and I fucking love George for that. He honestly went up in my estimation because he lied to her....not because it's right or wrong....but because he's the stoic adult in his eyes, and she's just a baby in his. Is it right or wrong? Hell if I know. But he took back some power in that moment.
a part of penny's relationship with sam that i hope you touch on in his video is the secret notes!! you can find sam's holiday shopping list and penny's list of gifts to give people. penny is on sam's list (and abigail is not), but sam is not on penny's lol. sam is on his own list, but i think leaving him off of hers was an intentional choice because vincent repeats and is on both!
NEW FIONA VIDEO AND A SPONSPORSHIP??? LETS GOOOOO
RIGHT im so happy for her!!! i hope more companies reach out to her for a deal and that they give her ten million dollars. lol
55:57 - To add a little more to the conversation about the narrative design choices regarding Penny and our grumpy old man: while I agree that the dialogue change in 1.4 was "good but not enough", I also think that we could take Penny's response and the slap on the wrist of losing FP further as something to analyze. Why do we lose FP with her for this? Did we make her feel stupid? Did we make her feel unappreciated? Did we assume her heart was in the wrong place? What does Penny think we mean by saying that she should've asked first? Even though the dialogue changed, Penny's response on a mechanical level didn't change, which can be interpreted a variety of ways.
For all I know you go into this immediately after this time stamp, so oops my bad time to unpause
It's important to remember that Penny, having grown up with a mother like Pam, is probably very sensitive and fragile emotionally. Criticism like what Penny received would be fine with most people, but it'd be soul shattering for someone like Penny. It's also the reason I think why George apologizes also. He recognizes how fragile she is emotionally, and recognizing how much of a miracle it is that she turned out to be such a sweet person, does not want to be the one responsible for destroying that or contributing to the feelings of worthlessness that she is already carrying around.
omg i needed that analysis on the ableism. That scene always felt weird, but i never really undestood the problem. Didn't expected a new perspective on this topic, but im for sure thankful
The wheelchair thing is so weird to me, it's like seeing someone struggling to reach the top shelf and picking them up from behind, its strange and invasive and just really gross. The fact that George ends up apologizing to Penny has always felt really icky.
Edit: There are a couple of mods that try to fix this scene on nexus, if this event bothers you I'd recommend trying a few of them out.
Picking them up from behind! Thats such a good analogy
I wasnt happy with my thought to liken it to picking someone up whos in your way and moving them 2m to the left. Because pushing something on wheels is so much more violent then that? A lot more can go wrong? But full body shove seems too too violent?
Yeah picking them up to reach a shelf up high is perfect
at work, people help me reach tall things at work quite a lot and they don't even have to pick you up for it to feel invasive. just getting up in your personal space to reach it for you without asking first is so rude in my eyes. but then again, i have a massive "personal bubble" and i hate people coming closer than like 10 feet away from me lol
to me it's more weird that people can't accept that Penny is as flawed as the other NPCs and makes poor judgements sometimes. she immediately understands and admits that it was rude. she just didn't realize it in the moment. of course a parentified young woman with a very unwell mom like Pam will be so groomed to help and care that she will inevitably overstep. George had every right to be angry. and he still had the grace to try to comfort her and be understanding because she knows she has a hard life. i see this all the time with "good girl" characters, either she's "too boring" / too perfect, or if she makes a mistake that fits her baggage she's treated as the worst most problematic b*tch. she wasn't even doubling down she pretty much immediately realized her mistake. what more do you want from people?
@@KitKat_293 I think that this would be better if it was a George cutscene instead of a Penny one, he's the one who gets pushed and I think the game should focus more about what's that like for him, it'd make the whole scene much more compelling. I like Penny, I don't think she's a 'problematic b*tch', Im actually quite fond of her, I just don't like how this scene is handled from a gameplay perspective. I understand the frustration about 'good girl' characters, it does get upsetting when people act as though they are not allowed to make mistakes. Totally get where you're coming from
i think most people who dont have a disability aid dont see them as an extension of the person the way the user does. like they DONT think its like picking someone up, they see it like idk holding a door or something. an object interaction. i think thats why they get defensive - there isnt enough education (at least in the US) about disabilities in general so they just dont consider how a wheelchair is more than a tool.
I'm an ambulatory wheelchair user and I want to thank you. These types of issues aren't being talked about enough.
A wheelchair is a tool that is an extention of my own body. It prevents me from staying at home all the time. I can't push it myself because my arms aren't capable so my husband is there. If my husband would need to go to the bathroom or do something and I have to wait in my chair, I can't do anything on my own. It can feel terrifying when someone pushes me without my consent.
Having no autonomy of my own, I would feel unsafe especially if I don't know where someone might take me. This is where I would use my breaks to stop them but that's a temporary solution. And if someone only has 'good intentions', they get angry when you say 'no' because they think I'm being ungrateful and I'm hurting their ego. I'm also black and hate crimes can make me feel extra vulnerable because I live in a white environment and I have a lot of racist experiences. Even if they seem like they have good intentions, they are still strangers and being autistic I have trouble knowing what someone's intention is. They might pull a prank, they might cause harm, etc. So I feel extra vulnerable with this, but anyone could have trouble with this.
It's like when you're a drunk girl at night and your friends are away for a short period like going to the bathroom. A man or a group of men want to 'help' you bring you home. She has trouble expressing her consent or if she says no it would be disregarded because she's drunk. She still has her autonomy but it's being ignored. Maybe those men have good intentions and maybe they don't. Even when they aren't strangers, it can still be unsafe. While Penny wouldn't cause harm, that unsafe feeling of someone pushing you without your consent can be similar. Even when we know it's safe, no means no. Children, elderly and disabled people are often being disregarded when they say no and it's quite sad.
I feel bad for George. The game is shaming him for being grumpy because a lot of people in Stardew Valley would have been grumpy in his same situation. I would be grumpy too if I'm being unheard and not being taken seriously. And being in pain all the time, I have to spend a lot of energy to not be moody in order to make people around me feel comfortable, but it's exhausting and I can't blame George that he wants to be himself and just says it like it is. Elderly disabled people still need to give consent. The game punishing the player for calling penny out, which is definitely a game flaw.
I notice when I talk about ableistic issues like this, people on the Internet would disregard it like saying 'it's not that deep', or 'you're chronically online' - only because they only focus on the perspective of penny, someone who has good intentions, instead of the disabled person whose autonomy is being disregarded.
I feel like, just as in the last video, I agree that the dev might consider to listen to these criticisms about his writing and that he could hire someone to support him. But people romanticise that it's one dude who made the entire game. It's one of the important selling points of the game besides that the game is fun.
Penny's personal issues might explain her behaviour but her actions were still ableistic.
"The game is shaming him for being grumpy" I have trouble seeing this and would like to understand
Yesss best thing to listen to while getting ready and avoiding job interview nerves
Good luck with the interview!
I have one myself in a week, best of luck to you!
Me, an adult parentified child that currently works in elderly care and is watching this while
*sewing a quilt*
Huh
Great video, great mini essay on her two heart scene, looking forward to watching all your videos!
when someone asks an able bodied person if they can help them, there's normally a pause where the able bodied person moves out of the way. George self propels. he could have moved out of the way himself. that's part of the thing I think people aren't getting sometimes? there was *no* need to move him, he could move himself.
anyway it sucks because other than this I relate to penny a lot, but as a disabled person, who at some point am going to need a wheelchair, it's hard to get past, when I like everything else about her
I really don't agree that losing friendship points with Penny is a negative thing gameplay wise. Not only does it make sense for her character, but you also *gain* points with George. And just like in real life, making a friend angry doesn't automatically make you not friends anymore; maintaining your friendship with Penny afterwards just makes the entire friendship feel more real and rewarding. The only people who I think would pick the pro-Penny option solely because of gameplay reward are most likely not going to care about the dialogue at all, let alone the moral implications of it; They're probably min-maxing or doing some kind of challenge run.
babe wake up it’s another stardew valley deep dive
I think you handled the conversation about the two heart scene well. Penny's intentions can be in the right place, but she could also be wrong at the same time.
It's that saying "the road to hell was paved in good intentions."
The "here's an example of something that happened to me so I can relate to you" is very much an autism thing lol
Is it? Shit, I’ve been known to do that, while also explaining “I don’t mean to make the topic about me, I’m just trying to relate to you.” I swear I have a touch of the tism
@@mariecarie1 ADHD too, I believe. It's certainly something I do.
Well that checks out >_>
??? A lot of non-autistic people do this.
@zombiethieves3736 correct, a lot of nerotypical people have traits that are common in autistic people. If you have several of these traits you should seek a medical professional for possible diagnosis.
However if you watch multiple of her videos you can see she talks several times about the possibility of being autistic for several reasons, I was simply commenting this to back up the possibility
youve seen the "babe wake up new fiona video" comments? well turns out i was the babe in question (was asleep when this was uploaded)
babe wake up the babe is awake
Really good section on the disability part.
I never took George's apology as him being used as a prop or giving in to a fuzzy ablist resolution. I always just assumed that he had a soft spot for a shy girl who he'd seen grow up in their tiny village, and was willing to forgive her for being clueless.
“It’s not a video essay, I don’t reference” continues to reference Winnicot who I am studying in my masters level psychotherapy course. 💛💛💛
YESSSS!! The eponymous Fiona has returned!! But seriously I'm so glad you're doing Penny because she's such a sweetheart and I feel she gets over looked for being "passive" or "boring" when if you go into it she has flaws and depth! Also yes!! It does in fact fuel my savior complex that I literally can buy her a new house and take her away from her alcoholic mother!! But we don't need to talk about that :D !! (also hell yeah on that sponsorship girl!!)
Nuance does matter because of receptivity to change. Assuming as I do that Penny genuinly thought she was being helpful, then she is receptive to change. It can often be assumed a person who makes an unitentional error would not make the error if they had appropriate knowledge because their intent was not to harm.
Arguing that nuance doesn't matter villianizes the ignorant, those who can be made to understand but currently dont. As you said both are true. If both are true then nuance matters more not less. Hurting someone as a genuine error is fundemtally different then hurting them on purpose even though the recieved hurt feels the same.
Penny was sorry when she realised she was wrong in the scene itself. Reaching out to her through her appropriate response is much better than making her a better then villian because if she is made to understand future harms are prevented.
how do you only have 2 likes what the hell
Everybody be silent Fiona just posted another masterpiece!!!
never apologize for kitty purring
A little over halfway way through the video and I've never felt so simultaneously heard and called out when talking about child parentificaion.i don't blame my mom for what happened, we had terrible circumstances, it's all long over now and we've both grown from it. At least now that I have a definitive name for it, I can work on correcting it in myself and not doing it to my own children while simultaneously teaching them to be self-sufficient adults. They should be able to cook, clean, and care for themselves and any family they may have while setting healthy boundaries.
Thank you, Fiona. 😊
best girl penny gets a movie length essay???!? damn we’re getting spoiled 🔥🔥
I'm ambivalent to Penny. But this video made me realize that we are very similar. Parentifacation as a child of a single immigrant parent, parent isn't an alcoholic but we have a toxic family, super shy but also heavily testing the waters with new relationships. I also have adhd and that rejection sensitivity is so real.
I actually graduated from my regular therapy sessions recently. It helped me with a lot of this over the past 7 years. I still live with my family but im making steps to be more independent like getting (and paying off) my own car or starting a "move out" fund.
Step by step, I'm resolving that codependency with my mom. To all of those in similar situations, we got this!
i think giving the dev a pat on the back because "at least his intentions were good" is exactly what the game does to Penny in the 2 heart event
The segment about the 2 heart scene was so well-worded, deeply considered and nuanced. I am not someone who is physically disabled either, but I think it is so important to speak up about these issues, even when (perhaps especially when) they are tangled up in media that is typically universally beloved. It's refreshing and so worthwhile to have conversations that consider SDV from all angles.
I think the reason Penny loves Sandfish is because it's implied her Mom (Pam) fishes for them to eat. Pam would probably fish at the desert when she works as a bus driver. Pam also fishes at some of the fishing festivals like squid fest and the ice fishing contest!
I relate so much to Penny. Poverty, addiction, trauma, parentification, escaping in books, and I now have multiple disabilities. I so, so appreciate the detail and care with which you've created this video. Edit: minus the kids. I just can't lol.
Penny of all characters having dialouge referencing the game mechanic to remove your kids (turning them into birds via the witch's hut) feels so ominous but also deliberate. I don't think any character talks about having kids except for Penny, or at least nowhere near to the same extent. It gives so many dark implications that I kinda love, ngl.
Also I gotta say, Penny looks so much cuter in her front-facing portrait.
I really appreciate your thoughtful and full of nuance criticism of CA and the 2 heart scene in general! I think people tend to put creators on such a removed pedestal that they no longer can be held accountable for their actions. Fixing the dialogue also doesn’t fix the general presentation of George, and specifically George’s disability, solely as a means for other characters development, which feels a bit shallow.
I really feel like the 2h scene could be fixed with george instead saying, "No, Im sorry for my tone, just dont do it again," and then going inside. I think georges apologize either doesn't need to be said or specified. I would love the game to give more george interactions i think he's really sweet when you get to know him. I really want more alex and george interactions especially with Alex's perspective with his sexuality and parents.
Edit (extra throughts): About the losing friendship, I understand why it should be mentioned, as it implies that it is the wrong choice and how players make their decision based on the friendship points, but i don't think that's how the game is supposed to be played. The player is supposed to play the game by itself, your not supposed to really know that you lost friendship points. This doesn't take away from the message of the event being wrong and should be changed. I agree with what you said in that when you don't really know someone saying they did something wrong would make them feel weird and potentially not reallg want to take to you, so I kinda like that you lose friendship points since it makes the characters feel real, but it is also very known in the community that everyone uses the wiki during the game, so I feel like that should be taken into consideration when making my opinion.
Its weird, I want punishment for making a choice that the characters may not like cause it would make them feel realistic and give my character feel more personal, but I also know this is a game and im really just getting close to them to marry them or get perfection (especially since penny isnt normally my preferred choice - i normally choose one of the guys since im gay and play the male characters)
Meaningful interactions > Metagaming. Agree so much, it shouldn't be a game about 'scoring points'
I had no idea people just use a wiki... what a hollow way to experience the game
Yeah I think as a first player, it's based on how the character themselves would feel, not someone from a third perspective. Do I understand what she did? Yeah. Was it still right? No. Did I understand even before I learned the reason why George was in a wheelchair it was wrong and he didn't really have to apologize but understand his thought process in why he might have? Yesy
I usually don’t watch long-form videos all the way through in one go , but it’s just something about your deep dives that makes me just want to sit and listen. I’M SAT!!!
With regard to your discussion of the Harvey 2 heart cutscene:
I am almost finished with my doctorate in clinical psychology (in August, yay🎉) and something clinical psychologists can be trained to do is Capacity Evaluation. Basically, we can do assessments with folks to determine if a person has medical decision making capacity. This is a very nuanced and complex kind of testing but one VERY important thing we are looking for is if a patient is able to logic their way through a decision. This can be about whether or not they want surgery or if they want to discontinue medications that are keeping them alive, etc. Unfortunately, sometimes, other medical professionals do say things like “they don’t have their best interest at heart” but to be blunt, they don’t have to. They just have to be able to explain why. Our only job is to make sure that someone is not too sick or otherwise unable to rationally decision make. Even if we don’t think their decision is smart or “best”. We don’t get to decide that for other people. We just make sure they’re thinking clearly. Even if they decide something we wouldn’t decide for ourselves. I just thought this might add an interesting bit of info to this topic.
Love your content! ❤
I just wanted to say I love your videos so much.... Usually when I watch a youtube video I just put them on in the backgroud and just do some other thing but when I watch your videos I put them on like a movie and get some snacks. While watching this video it really hit me that you are probably one of my favourite creators and I'm so happy for you that you have sponsorships. While watching your vidoes it's so apparent how much work and care you put into them. I just love them...
😭 that is so sweet thank you so much
this! i originally put on this video to fall asleep to and properly watch tomorrow… now, here i am, an hour in and too invested to sleep
Oh thank god. I was wondering how on earth i was going to motivate myself to clean today. Your timing is perfect!
i think your breakdown of the 2h cutscene was really good and i appreciate how you made clear your biases from the beginning of the video! this is the first video i'm seeing from you, and i just love how you talk about stardew valley. it's so clear how much you love this game!
Off topic, but I love that you share two of my favorite hobbies: Stardew Valley and crochet! That blanket is beautiful! I’ve been meaning to make a star blanket.
the comment on selling penny to 1d SENT me
Two and a half hours of Penny redemption let’s goooooooo
parentification portion of the video (~1:17:00) has me crying rn
Perfect timing, I'm about to go do the dishes
For 2 and a half hours
@@bethfazio1842it’s the penny way
SO here with you for Lewis slander
I can relate to Penny a lot and this video made me soooo emotional. I really appreciate how you delved into the parentification and alcoholism and stuff, and it makes me even more excited for the Shane video than I already was!
1:27 ish I will always tell Penny that shes in the wrong. I didnt realise it was the "villian" choice and now I know l'll continue to do so
front facing penny is so cursed why have i never seen that sprite
I think it only shows up after marriage.
I do think Penny is very young like 19-20 (as an alcoholics child i had to grow up super fast and at 19-20 I absolutely didn’t seem that young 😂 even at 22 it’s hard to relate to anyone younger than me because of that) Unfortunately i relate alot to penny and absolutely believe the rabbits foot is connected to wishing for your parent to stop but it would need beyond a miracle for that (at least feeling i’ve had)
FIONA!! You should be so proud of this video! The effort and execution and how THOUGHTFUL the points are! I learn something new every time. I always look forward to these deep dives, and I always play SV on my Switch as I listen. Thank you for the research you do for these videos, I’ll join the Discord soon.
that’s so sweet thank you!
2:14:19 this actually isn't true a lot of kids don't have the same experience as their siblings for example, a lot of boys get coddled or treated as the favorite and a lot of girls get pushed to the side or treated like maids because they aren't boys.
My childhood was miserable and full of parentification yet my little sister gaslights me and acts like it was better because she's way younger than me and our father was starting to not be an alcoholic at that point so she had a much better childhood. It's a rift between us that she is a delusional person that doesn't want confrontation or focus on what really matters only placating people like Penny. Then she wonders why she only ever has small talk with people and she's not close with anyone well sorry but it takes work and dealing with confrontation and making compromises in order for good relationships that are fulfilling.
By her not wanting confrontation, she's just not growing or strengthening relationship with other people she only cultivates fake relationships where she wants to please the other person to make things easier like with my parents. She's the one who makes all of the effort to keep the relationship going. They never check up on me barely talk to me and they were periods of years where they didn't know where I was or what I was doing and clearly didn't care but she like the sun shines out their butts.
Then you get my brother for example who was both coddled and told repeatedly that he was the person who needed to take care of my parents when they got older. My parents had four girls before they finally got the boy they always wanted and none of us could ignore that. It was very clear to us that we were chopped liver compared to him just because of the genitals he was born with. Talk about something that we still struggle with today.
My brother got much better treatment way more attention. Everything he wanted, and my mom basically waited on him hand and foot. He was the youngest. My dad spent time with him and actually talked to him. My dad and I didn't have much of a relationship at all, and he was downright disrespectful to me many times and clearly did not care about me. Making comments on my body and yelling at me constantly.
Strange thing is although all of us sisters have struggled with mental health and s*icide ideation and attempts my brother is the one who succeeded. Ironic isn't it
Loving this, only partway through watching, but I have to say you singing Chappell Roan while making tea is ICONIC
Your videos have become my new comfort media, thank you so much and I am so hyped for more stardew lore
the fact that some people are using classism to justify penny’s ableism is a wild
ps: big congrats on the sponsorship, and the new mic sounds a little crunchy at times
???
@@erc3338she basically said some people say something about penny being ableist because she’s “uneducated”
I clicked on this video as soon as I got the notification on Discord!
I 100% agree on your tangent on George's treatment in this game. Ablism is a huge issue that still gets left out of a lot of conversations and you outlined this issue more eloquently than I've ever been able to.