Taylor Swift Reactions! The Tortured Poet vs. Matty Healy, Jack Antonoff & Fans | Popcast (Deluxe)
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
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This week’s episode of Popcast (Deluxe), the weekly culture roundup show on RUclips hosted by Jon Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli, includes segments on:
00:00 Introduction
00:40 The new Taylor Swift album, “The Tortured Poets Department,” and Swift’s “imperial era”
6:52 How the album addresses her rumored relationship with Matty Healy of the 1975
11:23 A possible face-off between this album and Beyoncé’s “Cowboy Carter” at next year’s Grammys
16:19 “The Tortured Poets Department” as a detailed recitation of Swift’s life over the past 2 years
19:00 The production choices of Jack Antonoff and Aaron Dessner
32:37 How the album alludes to the work of the 1975 and Healy
52:13 Swift’s resentfulness streak
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Credits
“Popcast (Deluxe)” is hosted by Jon Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli. Produced by Sawyer Roque. Edited by Jamie Hefetz. Social media production by Pat Gunther. Photo edited by Amanda Webster. Thumbnails by Lindsey Flood. Special thanks to Nell Gallogly, Pedro Rafael Rosado, Caryn Ganz, Leslye Davis and Nina Lassam. 
Развлечения
We're experimenting with rolling out each week's episode in segments! Part 2, in which we review Drake's new A.I.-assisted Kendrick Lamar diss track, is available here: ruclips.net/video/3CmNFRCMeGA/видео.html
The full audio episode is available in the Popcast podcast feed everywhere you get your audio content!
A 1975 episode would be amazing!
I was worried and waiting for this. As a fan of Popcast and the (Deluxe) for several years, I appreciate your criticism and respect your opinion. I am most definitely a fan of Taylor and TTPD Anthology, but it's refreshing to hear such a thought-out critique, from two people who are well versed in Taylor's music, history, and artistry. I don't agree with you on so many of the points you made about this album, but your discourse actually helped me realize why I like this album so much, strangely. It is probably not for everyone. I for one am glad it exists! Keep on snacking!
I think that’s why criticism is so valuable (whether you agree or not)!
Exactly! Like i fully get it but some of the things they highlighted are what made it such a gem for me.
Yes, I feel the same. 😊
I’m so glad someone finally said the quiet part out loud. Thank you, Jon! 👏🏽
Timestamp please!
So many deep sighs in this episode. I appreciate y’all working through your thinking out loud for us.
We're entering "fraught waters"? Nooo. Don't kill this podcast, New York Times! I'm begging you. Jon & Joe have wonderful chemistry. What they do is rare: intelligent, knowledgeable, entertaining talk about music and culture. I eagerly wait for it every week. Content like that is good for the NYT brand!
I second this!
I'm not a Taylor listener but when TTPD dropped I was happy we would be getting an episode frome the Joes. Love from Uruguay !
We need Joe’s edited playlist! 🤲🏼
yes please!
i NEED a 1975 episode
I love you're takes and please do an episode on the 1975
“Travis Kelce is on the ride” 😂
This was soooo enjoyable, nuanced and just what I needed after a week of insane discourse about this record
I’ve never been disappointed by an outtake and I’m not even a swiftie.
Clara Bow seems less concerned about specific competitors like Olivia Rodrigo, and more about the inevitably fleeting nature of being an "it" girl (Swift has explained as much, recently). Though in the micro view Rodrigo clearly fits the bill of being an edgier version of Swift, citing Clara Bow and Stevie Nicks gives this a broader lens, in which Swift is seeing herself in the end stage of an age-old, existing cycle -- as perhaps a legendary but soon-to-wane star. People always seek to venerate young female artists and discard the previously lauded older ones, a pattern that clearly repeats itself in non-famous women's lives as well.
Great discussion! I adore this album, it definitely grows in complexity upon relistens, I had some of the same issues initially and they’re pretty much all gone now. (Particularly for the Anthology tracks!) But I definitely get your points!
A 1975 discussion would be amazing. I don’t think Clara Bow or imgonnagetyouback are about Olivia at all tbh…
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First off, I don’t agree with the overall analysis that this album is a dud. I LOVE it. That being said I love you guys and your knowledge so much.
Secondly, I think Joe’s take that maybe Taylor is BORED of the tight song writing is 100% spot on. I think she knows she’s writing messy and writing fast and she’s trying to write like some current writers she admires. ALSO wonder if she’s mimicking 1975 uber specificity as a stylistic choice.
Omg I just got to the part where Joe says she’s writing stylistically as 1975 on title track. Glad I caught that too.
Shoutout to Joe for also caring about the grammar
The truly ironic thing is I think Taylor is the person that Olivia needed/needs to be wary of. Like Taylor is warning Olivia and the newcomers from not only "the man" but Taylor herself too. Because in a lot of ways. Especially when it comes to Olivia. Taylor has become "the Man".
Olivia is never going to be as big or as palatable to the masses as taylor is. She is doubling down on the niche popunk thing and that's holding her back from being the next taylor. i don't think taylor is theatened by her.
@@TacoBellFan22😂
The lady that convinced us Katy Perry was committing career sabotage and deserved Bad Blood because a couple dancers switched tours also wants us not think badly of her stealing credits and bullying a smaller artist. This is why regardless of stats some don't think she's on the same level of Beyonce or Adele. Taylor wants to be treated like a legend, but it's clear she doesn't believe she is one cause she'd move different.
@@westworlds I agree 100%.
@@TacoBellFan22 If you ever seen or read any of olivias interviews. I dont think Olivia wants to be anywhere near as big as Taylor in any way and she def doesnt care about being palatable to the masses. She clearly just wants to make the music she wants to make and stand up for the causes she wants to stand up for. Olivias is not comparing herself to Taylor but Taylor has shown many times that she's compared herself to Olivia with the decisions she's made
I'll be here listening as long as its Caramanica and Coscarelli. The other NYT critics DONT DO IT FOR ME. please please please do a the 1975 episode, I'm begging
I'm just gonna say 53:19 imgonnagetyou back is a shout out to fallingforyou by the 1975 a song matty made clear was about Taylor the production is very similar too I don't think its a dig at Olivia
Please do a 1975 podcast
OMGGG, love your thoughts. HUGE 1965 fan here 😊I personally love so much of the anthology-Esp Black Dog! Peter, Chloe et al, Robin. Also LOVE- LOML, Smallest Man, So Long London, Guilty as Sin, TTPD and Down Bad
Pleeeeease I need a matty healy/1975 episode
Judging from her performances since Paris N1, we are 100% still on the ride.
Maybe I'm the only one but I do enjoy a 31 track album. It just covers the whole spectrum of moods so in whatever mood I'm in I just skip different songs each time and listen to what fits my mood.
From a rational point of view I agree with everything you said however if we see our musicians as artist I think we should appreciate their process as well. I see this album as sort of a sketch before you paint the big canvas. A sketch doesn't have to be innovative, you might draw some lines that won't work out or explore some ideas that won't make sense in the end, it might get messy. But I appreciate to see the process and the sketch even though it might not be as pretty or groundbreaking.
Now that y’all have sat on this TS release a little bit more, myself included… am I on to something that this is better than Midnights? I’m really sinking into the production - it’s busier than you think! Lots of moving parts! Like I hate that this pop figure girl bosses too hard by making her fans buy like 12 different versions of LPs, depletes vinyls from other artists and is an irresponsible billionaire - but damn am I a TS apologist after sitting with the TTPD. LET 👏 HER 👏 COOK 👏
It’s the Evermore to her Folklore - less pop hits but stronger singer-songwriter production notes
Please make an episode about the 1975.
She did the March and salute on the TTPD set for The Smallest Man. I know that’s a nod off to Matty’s set for Love it If We Made It. Would be great to actually get a full conversation about the lore of the 1975.
Having watched y'all for years, I pity the stans who will flood your feeds without any knowledge of your fair history with Taylor. *But* I kinda just feel bad that your jobs require you to be so closely connected to "the discourse" that, as you admitted, it had an inescapable impact on your reception of TTPD. I wonder how exhausting the album might have been without the discourse (honestly...probably not that much less 😂 it needed to be no more than an hour long in total, w/90% of the anthology cut.) Then again, would this album even exist WITHOUT the cultural context? Isn't so much of this album a reponse *to* the discourse? I'm tired again.
The note about the Beatles anthology in real time is so spot on
I concur with the sentiments expressed in the comments. It would be greatly appreciated if you could consider producing an episode focused on The 1975. .I found this episode particularly engaging and insightful. Discovering your podcast through a Twitter post has been a delightful experience, and I am pleased to have come across such interesting content. Have a great day everyone.
I found you both a while back. It is refresing to hear objective discussions in this day and age about music. No artist or album should be above criticism and music critics should not be afraid to give their critiques. I think you both made very fair and reasonable points. I truly believe she made this album for Taylor and The 1975 fandoms. I think this is her personal due to the aftermath of how her fans and general public reacted, people crossed a line in her personal life. Matty basically got a double album and she had a lot to process and say with not really caring what anyone has to say. I am still processing this album and she is the most unhinged collection of songs in the standard album I have ever heard. I do agree there is a level of fatigue at the same time I feel it may be an end of an era and beginning of a new one. You both are familiar with The 1975 discography she is referencing their lyrics all over this album even in the production (Jack co-produced bfial), it is not a mockery she has been a fan of the band since 2014. At times, I have thought maybe this album was meant to be a collaboration album with Matty because he is probably one of few who can meet her in the middle with songwriting, and maybe why it feels like she rushed and recorded it so quickly or reworked these songs. Taylor and Matty have over 10 year between them. However, I think we are in for a surprise for Reptv is possible The 1975 will be featured because she basically has nothing to loose now. I would love for you both to have Matty and George as they are working on the 6th album. Matty may be hesitant to do any podcasts due to being the most talked man right now. Hopefully, in the near future. You have a fan here and looking forward to your next episode!
I would LOVE a full episode on The 1975! 33:47
old man is not letting young man finish thoughts damn it! Young man was going somewhere great when he was talking about "Little Old Me" damn it! 😠
Great, nuanced discussion about "TTPD." (Glad to hear Jon's come around on The 1975 - ridiculously good band!)
"I Can Do It With a Broken Heart", to me, is the best thing on this project. I wish way more of the production was in that mode on this thing. Closest thing to a banger on here.
On the other hand, "The Alchemy" is brutal lol
Why not talk about the anthology tracks? It’s 50% of the album.
you guys should drop the ideal tracklist cause this is the first the time I straight up just stopped listening and didn't finish a Taylor album. By song 6 I tapped out. Not listening to P.2 either. If long albums are gonna be The Thing, the girls need to do the work to make sure it doesn't feel punishing. Also really not caring for Taylor's... whatever with Olivia. "You have everything and you still want more," indeed.
Billionaires punch down not up.
The Album is redundant sonically and the lyrics miss something.
This album title said everything absolutely the sound pleasing lyrics. The lyrics were OTHER LEVEL
You should absolutely do an episode on the 1975. They are a great band and advocate for so many amazing things.
People missing this in the comments but most of the critical reaction to Olivia's debut (beyond just their instagram interaction) was calling her "Taylor Swift but edgy." Word for word. So Taylor saying she used media commentary in her song Clara Bow and it's the exact terminology people used to describe Olivia makes it pretty obvious there is a (negative) reference to Olivia in that song, made stronger by the exact motif she took from Get Him Back, a critically acclaimed song (both Pitchfork and NYT noted this in their GUTS review) that Olivia performed in front of Taylor in September at the VMAs. It absolutely feels like punching down or taunting to someone familiar with both.
Erm..... I'm a livie and a swiftie and you just made that up as being attacking Olivia? She wrote most of the aaron stuff in 2022/early 23 and likely before guts came out. And her using what people say about Olivia if it is about her is her talking shit about the music industry and how they'll talk her down for the new girl just like they did to stevie and clara for her. To say its taylor punching down is really based in nothing but a bad faith projection based in nothing. Like i'm sorry but this olivia narrative is so tired and their beef is a boring ass cold war that people try to make into a catty mess.
Spot on! It's not over for Taylor and Matty. Her urgency to get this album out is clearly a wake up call to him that she loves him deeply. Personally love the album but don't disagree with anything you're saying!
I never really thought of it like that. It does sort of feel like she felt he was her soul mate. People can hate on this album as much as they want but can they say she’s ever written this passionate whether love or hate about anyone else?
@@tjc4085 exactly this. The way she writes about Matty, in every emotion, is deeper & more spiritual and beautiful than anything I've ever heard. So real and raw.
Uhh no because if you’ve read the poem that she wrote as sort of a prologue to the whole album, you’d know that she’s completely moved on from that chapter of her life and the album is only a manuscript for us and her to reflect back upon
I honestly couldn’t get through this album, and tapped out at track 7.
I agree on the Grammy, best album conundrum. I have a Feeling, the Grammy's will rather give it to someone else then B. But, we will have to wait and see.
i think billie eilish , since she s also dropping an album this year. and the critics usually love her
I'm maybe not the typical audience, but I am in love with both parts of this album. i have a few skips, sure, but I find the overwhelming majority of this project to be intoxicating. I don't really listen to much music the last several years, and I've never been a Swiftie. But the algorithms did their magic a couple months ago and I ended up clicking on a reaction video of a live performance that knocked my socks off and I realized I might like Taylor Swift. I do not like all of her songs sonically. There is much I don't like, but so many I have found that I love. I enjoy the storytelling and lyrics and, yes, the easter eggs. So this album is a rich, layered gift that leads back to other albums and forces you to look at songs through a new lens. BTW, Midnights was mid. Folklore is a masterpiece.
I love yall to death! But if yall make one more TS episode LMAO! lol (just kidding, still love yall!) Can we get an all hip hop episode! There's SO much going on in hip-hop right now! Let's GOOOOOO! Hip-hop isn't dead baby!!!
I'm a TTPD Lover and I also Love Lover too
Even though I disagree with a lot it was such an enjoyable listen. Obviously very knowledgeable and are speaking from a perspective of actually liking Taylor as an artist and I think that makes all the difference when giving constructive criticism which I think all of the points were ...
But Daddy I Love Him is both Antonoff and Dessner, much more so Antonoff if you look at the credits.
As a TTPD lover, I still enjoyed this episode! I love a nuanced take between two people who have a clear respect for the artist. What I find most bothersome about people reviewing Taylor negatively is that they usually make it unnecessarily scathing and cutting, and this was so far from that. I disagree with a lot of the points made here, but I still appreciated this episode so much! Keep it up guys!
Wait you forgot to talk about the Wikipedia page
Her album is unpolished and unedited with themes, styles, concepts and lines copied and paraphrased from different artists like Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Ray, 1975, and others. She's the most overhyped and overrated artist who ever lived. The only reason why everyone is interested in her music is to hear the tea she's spilling from high-profile feuds, friendships, and lovers. There are so many better obscure but great poetic, songwriters out there that don't get the recognition because the subject of their songs are not as famous as Taylor's.
No her music heals people, just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean that others don't.
In my opinion, TSMWEL wasn't sung as strong as it could have been because it lends itself to her uncertainty and consciously or subconsciously not full commitment to this being her final say on the subject. 🤷🏻♀️
because she doesn't want to close the door?
It kind of sounds like you really like this album, even though you're saying you don't
I never thought I could hate her new album but I do. This album has 31 songs and yet non of it is good like... she needs to stop and rest for a while.
How can you not like LOMI. that song is stunning.
eternal sunshine will probs beat cowboy carter for aoty
Eternal Sunshine is not winning AOTY.
😢
maybe it's *my* problem, but why do I feel the songs & discourse around her is forever stuck in high school, just a different set of dates and female rivals this time.
I think there is something about Taylor that’s like perpetual girlhood like no matter how old she gets she always feels like she’s in a sort of protracted adolescence so it might be to do with that
I think the theory is a person gets "stuck" at the age they were when they first got famous so she was like 15 or 16?
definitely a you problem. Her working through the psychology of being a child star is highly interesting and people's insistence on reading that dismissively like this just misses her genius tbh
Maybe because you suffer from confirmation bias and don’t bother to actually listen to her music and perhaps think emotional songs are girls stuff… there are men and women of all ages who appreciate her art. But confirmation bias keeps us warm inside.
Comapring the Cowboy Carter review to this review is just a bit eye-opening. There was so much to discuss about Cowboy Carter. The vocals, the production, the song choices, the interludes, the themes, the genrebending and the overall discourse, but it was dismissed in a sort of carless way that barely stratched the surface of that album. So much so that we got like half a podcast. Yet here we get a whole hour of discussion on how this half assed album was not so bad. Feels like the Grammies all over again to be honest.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who notices this when they discuss Beyoncé and her music. They barely get in depth about her actual music and just scratch the surface of her content. Plus I still feel iffy that neither one of them went to the Renaissance tour but had time to go to Taylor’s Eras tour twice
@lashercollette88 yea you can definitely tell. Their takes were so reductive. Like are they truly music fans? Idk. Especially skinny Joe. Lol. Some of his takes are very questionable.
@@myth1356 It’s like they like black music but only at surface levels. They don’t try to dig deep into the understandings of black art and music and I could tell that with Cowboy Carter and the Renaissance documentary. They barely got in depth with the doc when there’s so many moments that they could’ve dissected and discussed deeper but nope. Like someone said on another comment thread “they seem like two white guys who barely leave Manhattan” and that makes so much sense
@@lashercollette88 I am a Bey fan but the Renaissance doc didn't not reveal anything new about Bey. If you watch the Life is but a dream doc she says the same thing almost word for word.
Taylors not gonna like this..also didnt joe interview her for Lover 😂😂 i imagine they've gotten or will get some really sharp tongued emails from taylors team. The payola for this album id cray
Fraught waters?!?!
Have followed Taylor since the beginning, Olivia doesn't even come close to the brilliance of Taylor Swift. I wasn't sure about this album but after sinking into it for a few weeks I love it. As Taylor said ''This album is for me I needed to write it''.
Yessss I love your guys’ takes 🤌🏼 I was a little sad she announced an album so soon…kinda feel like she should have relished a little while…
She’s worked on it for two years
@@TacoBellFan22no no, I’m saying she should have relished midnights a while
@@christina80997that’s not how her fans consume her music at all in case you haven’t been following properly
I didn't even think of Olivia when listening to the album lol why bring her up?
Because men… it’s pathetic
Funny how only critics hate the album but everyone else loves it 😂 I think it’s one her best
Speak for yourself. Not all critics hate this album, and not everyone else likes it. It’s okay to have different opinions
Go home
the most hatred is coming from the critics. It’s also mainly not landing for the fans of Taylor who really only like her pop bangers so not necessarily those long time swifites who enjoy her albums front to back and love it the more complex her albums are
are you sure? on aoty, critics' score is 25 points higher than users' score
Dude doesn’t like midnights or Folklore both of which won album of the year and doesn’t like TTPD which is shattering records. And complains Jack has been over used the whole time Note to Taylor: do not listen to these dudes! They’ll destroy your career!
Exactly. lol
I mean Grammys aren’t really a strong argument but yh those two albums seemed more loved than hated so I suppose he was off the mark
@@tjc4085 OK. We’ll go by sales and streams. Same result. By any unit of measurement they’ve been an incredible success.
Olivia Rodrigo isn't on Taylor Swift's stardom level
I would hope not as Taylor's career is almost as old as Olivia is. At the same time you praised eternal sunshine and GUTS has better sales and critical reviews, and SOUR has surpassed most of Ariana's career.
I think it’s no surprise Olivia has passed Ariana. I think nowadays people have respect for singer song writers who create their own art.
@@amethysth2345 I can't even understand Ariana's lyrics. Her music doesn't move me like Taylor;s. I suppose we love what we love.
TTPD is the worst album I ever heard.
who asked?
@@TacoBellFan22 who asked you?
worst Taylor album? Fair opinion but the worst album ever is just u being a hater lmao. There’s pop stars who have put of embarssing albums
@@tjc4085 I can’t say her worst album because I don’t listen too her music, I can’t say the worst album of all time because I did not listen to every album ever released, I said is the worst I heard.