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EO Debate Review | & Hope for the Church in the Midst of Disunity.
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- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2024
- Wes and Lucas discuss @redeemedzoomer6053 debate on The Crucible Channel against an Eastern Orthodox (EO) new catechumen and the weaknesses of the Eastern Orthodox position. They furthermore discuss hope for the Church among disunity.
Welcome to the Laymen's Lounge! A new weekly series on Method Ministries where Wesley Todd and Lucas Curcio discuss various topics related to Christians and the Church.
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2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
I guess how do I know what Is secondary? Like in provisionism when I ask why they believe calvinsm is heresy they say it fundamentally changes God's nature and fundamentals of faith. That being, God does not want everyone to be saved and did not die for everybody and that faith is given through regeneration, not having faith to be regenerated. These are things that would separate a majority of Christianity who would say no. To me that seems like a lot to consider a secondary issue, though i want to see it as that. I am scared or being wrong and dammed and being cowardly wont fix it by not making a decision though it feels like a dammed if I do or don't so what is the right answer?
@@JesusRodriguez-gu1wv Calvinists don't change God's nature. Whoever is saying that is, don't listen to them. In regards to being damned, theoretically speaking, even if you affirmed a heretic, why would you lose salvation over this?
@methodministries I suppose it depends on how severe that heresy is? For example, I think of how Paul says those who come proclaiming a different gospel are anathema, and as protestants, we see it as you are saved by faith apart from works, and adding works makes you dammed. Which does seem to throw a wrench in wanting unity with Catholocism who deny that and would either make us damned or them though I want it to not be that way. Same with it seems those who deny the trinity and are oneness to those who believe Christ was created by God. What do you think?
@@JesusRodriguez-gu1wv Calvinist don't deny the fundamentals of the faith. I would stop listening to those Provisionists who are calling them heretics.
@methodministries Fair enough. If you could, please help me to understand the other questions brought up in our conversation?
Ironically, the Orthodox are the only Christian body who still uses the NT Greek Text that the Reformers built their whole argument of Sola Scriptura upon.
If Sola Scriptura is the right doctrine, then why...
1. Did Protestants remove Canonized books?
2. Did those books need to be removed BEFORE Sola Scriptura could be true?
3. The New Testament writers reference and quote "dueterocanonical" books, so how do we know which ones are in and which ones are our?
The canon was not set in any tradition until after that tradition split from the Catholic church. Then the Catholic church was the final to have a set canon in the Council of Trent.
@@Weavileiscool by set do you mean "closed"?
You still got the question wrong. Who’s the normative authority that decided what is Scripture? Protestants have a biblical canon. Catholics have a different biblical canon. And Eastern Orthodox have a different biblical canon. Which one is the authoritative canon? Depends on who is your normative authority. However, when we talk about epistemological certainty, we all have to make a personal decision.
The problem with Protestantism is that they want to keep dogmas and Scriptures that were decided by a normative authority they don’t accept. The same goes for Catholics. They deny the authority of the Church. They establish their own normative authority. Then wonder why so many heresies sprung out from their midst.
Embrace the Orthodoxy☦️
You say it is stupid and ridiculous to call Calvinism heretical, and that one who would make such a pronouncement isn’t well read, yet there is a council (Synod of Jerusalem 1672) which is recognized and accepted by the second largest body of Christians (and, arguably the oldest) on Earth that says exactly that. We who see Calvinism as incompatible with Christianity aren’t simply coming to our own mean-spirited opinion. It’s literally what the Church has taught since first addressing the subject. Also, how do you “mark and separate” from EO when they would never accept that you are a part of them in the sense that you are even capable of you from separating from them? How can you separate from one to whom you’ve never been connected? I think it is more honest to simply state that you are at enmity with EO. That’s definitely how they see it, despite any charitable interactions you might have had with any individual member of the Church.
That Synod was regional. Not ecumenical. To mark and avoid, is to ensure that I stay away from having interactions with those men.
I think what's necessary is to push the calvies on their theology fully to see where the differences really are with people you care about to test their logic and outcomes, all theology laid out had many issues with affirming Jesus in communion, mine is definitely the fact that God decrees all sin which then the question would be why not commune with gay accepting pastors? Because one is affirming sin and the other affirming God ordain sin, it's tough to discern but one is a philosophical difference calvinism and arminianism and one is outright rejection of biblical revelation.
@@methodministries And the face that it was only a local council is relevant how? The entire Eastern Church accepts its theological conclusions. Are you under the impression that a council must be ecumenical in form (irrespective of substance) order to be effectual? If so, what is the basis for that impression?
@@cassidyanderson3722 Are you an EO btw? The EO position is that only what the Church as a whole confirms via an ecumenical council is infallible.
@@methodministries I am EO. I think both of you have many misconceptions about us. I assure you that the entire Church accepts the Synod of Jerusalem as the official (and only) position re: Calvinism. Just to try and give you another (albeit, imperfect) example of how we view synods and councils, we don’t have an ecumenical council dealing with the canon of scripture, yet the entire Church accepts the Council of Carthage as it relates to that issue. A converse example would be the Council of Florence, which was accepted by the attending bishops (save Mark of Ephesus), yet rejected by the entire Church. I understand the difficulty westerners have in understanding how this works and don’t hold it against you. In fact, I think that is the source of a lot of your misconceptions. You, through no fault of your own, view us through a western lens that is colored by scholasticism and humanistic rationalism, neither of which controls our approach to the faith. I’ve offered before (and the offer still stands) to talk to you guys about this. I don’t think you are doing it on purpose.
I thought Ben’s argument is that there isn’t really normative authority because right of private judgment is of a higher ultimate authority than the church as an institution based on the reformers.
That’s still wrong. There is church authority in Protestantism. It’s just not infallible.
@@methodministriesit's completely irrelevant and is ultimately just giving lip service to normative authority, when they have zero power to bind your conscious to anything they say and you as the individual are responsible to critique every single thing and examine it through scripture. Why have a normative hierarch at all??
@@megabucks1231 You don't even function like that in life. We have all sorts of fallible authorities. Even EO teaches that prior to the Holy Spirit, there was fallible authority, as with the Pharisees who sat in the seat of Moses and had Oral teachings, but Jesus refuted them by the Scriptures.
Read Wescott & Hort's biographies. Likewise review the consequence of their contributions to textual criticism. Disqualifies the entire foundation Sola Scriptura is built upon.
As a Nazarene, Wes was 100% right in what he said about the denomination. Unfortunately, WO has been engrained in the denomination since its beginning, so I don’t think that’s going away. All the other “silliness” is just a result of that issue.
What is WO?
@@VarynDEE33t women’s ordination
Who is Jay Dier and why do you guys talk about him so much?
He's an EO RUclipsr who attacks Protestants fairly often, so we provide an apologetic against it to help Christians answer these objections.
@@methodministries Thanks. I looked him up after asking who he was (I was spelling his name wrong). How is what he is doing any different from what you are doing?
@@cassidyanderson3722 You got it! We're both doing apologetics. If that's what you mean, then I do agree.
He's the definition of an EO bro
He's a RUclipsr who they are afraid of debating
Lol. Avoid Jay Dyer because he’s mean. Lol.
I challenged him to an in person debate on Sola Fide. He declined. He doesn’t want to debate me 😎
@@methodministrieshe would literally rag doll you 😂 he’s debated much higher level debaters than yourselves on the topic.
@@methodministries You are lying by omission. not wanting to physically meet for a debate with a tiny YT channel is not the same as not wanting to debate. In fact, he said he would debate with you the same way he's debated many high profile debaters; online.
Luigi cooked☦️💪
“Hope for the church in the midst of disunity”. I say this not to be smug or rude. You seriously need to self reflect on how you interact with other Christians online. The amount of arguing and childish comments I see from your channel on RUclips and on instagram is disheartening. I’m by no means defending anyone else and what they say either. Turn the other cheek. Don’t give anyone any reason to believe you don’t represent Christ.
There’s a difference between disunity because we disagree on 0.001% of doctrine and people that would be unrecognizable to the historical church. It’s not divisive to hold the line on women preaching, homos*exuality, etc
@@Wesley_Todd It’s interesting that you assumed I’m speaking about progressive ideology’s when I never once made mention of it.
@@joelrobertsonmusicthat’s who we have a bone to pick with. Disagreement on baptism or soteriology has probably never drawn a disparaging comment from me or Lucas. Heck we disagree with each other on it. But hollowing out the Christian faith for perversion or sins against nature? That’s where we draw the line
Fully agree, great video!
Thank you!
Wes should go on the crucible to talk with pro patriarchy andrew wilson or rachel wilson or even joel webbon
What is the crucible?
@Wesley_Todd the debate pic on the video says crucible, it was hosted by zen shapiro, Andrew's debate moderator I'm sure
@@Wesley_Todd it'd be totally based if you or someone else like eric conn went on the whatever podcast
@@MisertheWizerthat would be based!
Eastern Orthodox is an inaccurate label you Western Protestants put on the Orthodox. Go to any country outside of the US and NOBODY says Eastern Orthodox, people just say Orthodox or Orthodox Catholic.
The reason is that there’s also the oriental orthodox and it’s a way to distinguish, and saying orthodox catholic without specifying isn’t always enough because of peoples lack of knowledge of orthodoxy and our terms. It’s not big enough of a deal to get hung up on.
And the prots didn’t put the name on us, English speaking orthodox have been using the name for a while, from our metropolitan kalistos ware, to seraphim rose, to spyridon Bailey etc
@@mollyporium5086 Oh yes it is. Imagine going to Belarus and telling locals that you are Eastern Orthodox. They would assume you are from the middle east.
@@alt-monarchist there are Eastern Orthodox middle easterners they aren’t all just orientals. There’s Eastern Orthodox Palestinians, jordinians, Syrians etc. and we aren’t talking to Belarusians are we? The same way in Belarus you think they wouldn’t know what you’re saying, people in America wouldn’t know what you’re saying if you said orthodox catholic or just orthodox. Most prots would think “orthodox catholic” is still referring to the latins, and just saying “orthodox” isn’t enough because they wouldn’t know if you’re oriental or not.
@@alt-monarchist there was a confession by Peter mogila in the 17th century using the term “apostolic eastern church” he’s from Romania. Saying Eastern Orthodox in the east is not going to confuse anyone.
The coping is so sad 😂 Protestantism is dying. There is nothing you can do to stop it. EO has stood the test of time and will continue to do so.
cope
These guys CAN'T review debates at all
We literally did...
@@methodministriesWhat he's saying is that you guys suck at doing this.