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End-Times Debate | Preterism vs. Futurism Debate | Jonah M. Saller vs. Lucas U. Curcio.
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- Опубликовано: 27 июн 2024
- Debate: Jonah M. Saller defends Preterism. Lucas U. Curcio defends Futurism.
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#eschatology #endtimes #debate #theology #preterism #futurism
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Brilliant conversation/debate! As an amil/postmil, and this Jonah is great in his arguments. One thing though:at 40:48, I find it hard to believe in a double fulfillment, due to Matt 24:21. It is a unique event.
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, Jonah is a phenomenal debater!
Jonah is a great guy!
So this should just be called a partial preterist vrs futurist
Excellent job Lucas. I’m amil myself but I think you did a great job and your cross examination was pretty strong.
Thank you very much!
1:05:53 Jonah explained this to Lucas multiple times before and he’s still not understanding. It feels like intentional ignorance tbh
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
PRETERISTS, HISTORISTS take away from the words of the book of prophecy.
44:35 Lucas’s question is super disingenuous… if the general resurrection is fulfilled immediately after the tribulation the way he is describing with no other imports… let’s schedule the funeral for premillennialism!
Also, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr believed that some scripture applied distinctly to the Jews ("But we do not trust through Moses or through the Law; for then we would do the same as yourselves" Dialogues with Trypho, ch. XI). They also separated the Church from Israel (Justin, at one time, calls the Church the true Israel, Dialogues with Trypho the Jew, ch. CXXIII, but he still distinguishes between the ethnic Jewish nation that shall be saved, Dialogues with Trypho, ch. CXXXIV, and also references Hosea, Zechariah and Daniel for proof, Dialogues with Trypho, ch. xiv).
Irenaeus says that the Church shall be saved from the descriptions of the Olivet Discourse (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter xxix, Section 1), he also believes that the 144000 saints described in Revelation are ethnic Jews:
And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, “We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein.” (Jer_8:16) This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, ch. xxx, s. 2
Irenaeus also believes in a separation of the Church and Israel, and uses Jacob's marriages of Leah and Rachel to paint a picture of it, in Against heresies, book iv, ch. xxi, section 3. He also believed that the present dispensation was distinctly one of more grace (against heresies book iv, ch. 11, sections 3-4).
When the time statements that sandwich revelation get brought up Jonah says that all prophecy in the book meet their starting point, not necessarily their end point so to avoid full preterism, however I'm curious how this works with the great white throne judgement? was 70ad the starting point of this judgement and the second coming judgement the end point? I don't understand this, and what's to stop someone simply taking this as 70ad and only 70ad?
The Great White Throne judgment is said to be "after the thousand years are finished." This is another time-marked event. One of the only ones marked as after a long period of time. That's why we believe it is still in the future. The thousand-year period necessitates it.
@@merecatholicityI see what you’re saying but the reason I do t agree is cause Paul said to Timothy that Christ would judge the living and the dead at his appearing. Meaning it would happen at the coming of the lord so if the Lord came back already this judgement already happened this would also by default mean the 1000 years are complete too
In 7:05, you state that historic premillennialism is different from dispensational premillennialism, yet, there is not much difference between the early Church doctrine and dispensational premillennialism. See the following irenaeus quote for example:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' (Mat 24:21) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."
Irenaueus, Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter xxix, Section 1
The whole chapter is very pre-trib.
Jonha gets more aggressive because he has everything to lose if wrong. Lucas more relaxed
When and how does he “get aggressive”? He seemed pretty calm to me
Exactly what did he have to lose if wrong (he wasn't)? An internet debate? And he wasn't aggressive in the least.
🤡
All scripture was fulfilled in the 1st century. The Day of the Lord was a judgment on Israel and the Roman world back then. Jesus and His angelic army was seen running among the clouds before Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed. Daniel's and John's prophecy came true during the Jewish and Roman War. The book of Revelation is completed.
Amen my friend ❤
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
PRETERISTS, HISTORISTS take away from the words of the book of prophecy.
@@qwerty-so6ml How am I taking words away from Revelation? I don't interpret it the same as futurists, is that what you mean?
@@elikrines1506
HISTORISTS and PRETERISTS are taking away from the worst horror the world will see (Matthew 24:21), when the earth shakes to and fro like a drunkard (Isaiah 24:20), as the pit is opened (Revelation 9:2) and the locusts are released (Joel 2:25).
John received the book of Revelation.
Yet, he was told that he would be coming back at the end.
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy AGAIN before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
That revelation (given within the past 2 decades):
@@elikrines1506
Seal 1 bow = simple fabric bow, not a bow and arrow. That bow is the V*X.
Trumpet 6 is all about the V*X. The 200 million army is everyone involved with the V*X.
Rev 17/18 harlot is NYC. Jerusalem is NOT a port city. Destruction of NYC printed on US $100 and $10.
Could jonah being Catholic take this position because for Rome not to be the women riding the beast has to be in the past. If in the future Rome a bad guy
He’s not Catholic, he’s anglican
As Michael Heiser said, both camps cheat.
The Futurists re-interpret the dating passages to mean something none of the target audience would have thought they meant.
The Preterists re-interpret the descriptions of Jesus' return (with the thousands of angels and saints, and the judgment of the nations that happens at that time, and the resurrection, etc.) in a way none of the target audience would have thought they meant.
The real truth is a "both and neither" interpretation. There are two distinct timelines that branch off from a single timeline in ~AD 66. One timeline lasts ~7 years long, while the other timeline lasts ~2000 years. At the end of each of those timelines the Lord Jesus returns and the two timelines merge together as one again to form a single Millennial age timeline.
@@tomragsdale6547 What’s the 7-year long you’re referring to?
When speaking about generation he doesn't say which generation
In more than one place, he says those standing here. He said John would not die until His return. He also ties His return to the destruction of the temple.
He literally says “this generation” which means the generation of that present time
@@AustinGonder the generation he speaks is the last generation when the son of man coming in the clouds with power and glory
@@donnajess1918no I disagree he says this generation which is the near demonstrative which means it’s very clear which generation he had in mind the one he was living in not some future one
@@donnajess1918 So now "this" actually means "that"? That's dishonest and denies the plain language of the text. When sitting at dinner enjoying my food I said "this food is delicious", do I actually mean "that" food is delicious, meaning someone's food two thousand years later?
Preterism wins. Futurism is a lie and makes Jesus a liar.
@@royalpriest89 Ha. No need to say one side makes Jesus a liar. I’m fine with you saying Preterism wins. But no need to say Futurism makes Jesus a liar.
35 "Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming-- in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning--
36 "lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping.
37 "And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" (Mk. 13:35-37 NKJ)
Amen. Speaking directly to the apostles.
Futurist claim Jesus lied. Jesus promised to come in the generation of the disciples. If he didn’t, he lied. That’s what futurists claim. Along with skeptics, Muslims and Jews.
@@royalpriest89 "To all." ALL.