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He Left The Coptic Orthodox Church | Pastor Samuel Farag
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2024
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Former Greek Orthodox here now a believer in Christ born again! Many are lost in the Orthodox church. I share the gospel and scripture with them and they are stunned to hear it.
Wow! Praise God!
Good for you, me too! Lifelong Greek Orthodox converted to Lutheranism last year. Best decision I ever made.
It’s amazing that people from ecclesialist churches, where they say the Bible is obscure, once they actually read the Bible they see it’s “simple and true,” as Chrysostom said.
Who would've guessed?!
Who says the Bible is obscure?
Prima scriptura - but people aren't infallible and can get their interpretation of the text wrong. That could be why there are so many Protestant sects.
That St John Chrysostom quote is one of the most egregious examples of cherry picking the Fathers. I do not blame you; you likely got it from a compilation purporting to show the Fathers taught _sola scriptura._ But that quote is from Homily 33 on Acts, specifically Acts 15, a homily utterly against _sola scriptura_ and heretical groups that try to use Scripture to lead people astray.
The homily defends the authority of the Apostles and St James, as bishop, to enjoin the Gentiles regarding the Law by their own authority, not just the authority of the Law (Scripture). In other words, an authority to bind people's consciences that is not solely Scripture.
The quote of the Scripture being "simple and true" is in a hypothetical dialogue with a heathen who wishes to be Christian but doesn't know which group to join. St Chrysostom first advises to join those who believe the Scriptures and do not fight them (effectively refuting groups who simply threw out whole sections of the Bible, e.g. the entire Old Testament for Marcions, or the Deuterocanon for Martin Luther).
The heathen inquirer then says that multiple remaining groups all assert that they are following the plain teaching of the Scripture, yet interpret it diversely. To which St Chrysostom responds to follow those authorities in the Church, those who have governed the Church and are in continuity faithfully teaching what those who previously presided over and governed the Church said.
This quotemine is from a refutation of _sola scriptura_ a thousand years before that tradition of man was invented. You want to believe _sola scriptura?_ Ok. But don't think anyone before Martin Luther believed that.
@@billcynic1815lol please. Athanasius would say otherwise. How’d he fight gnostic heresy? Apostolic tradition? Nah. Purely the scripture. No tradition needed. Ironically the first instance of tradition comes from himself on the age of Christ and all churches say athanasius was wrong. The first instance of tradition was wrong. What’s that say about so called tradition 200 years later? You are blind. Which tradition is even true? Rome’s? Or the orthodox? You all literally claim the same thing, both can’t be right.
@@KnightFel I think you mean Irenaeus
Orthobros are coping hard. Love to see it!
A lot of the comments are like "this is Protestant propaganda"
like duh, genius, this is Protestant apologetics. Would you call Orthodox apologetics "propaganda" too?
Haha. You truly can't win with them.
This isn’t Protestant propaganda, it’s Orthodox misrepresentation and slander.
@@Rooted_In_Christos He grew up Orthodoxy. There was no misrepresentation.
@@methodministries my comment wasn’t towards him, rather you, who slander orthodoxy every video you post about them. Also I’m not Orthodox, before you come at me and say I’m biased.
I think it's so relevant that you point out at minute 23:00 that the arguments used to defend icons are identical to those that pagans used in "worshiping" their idols. This is often overlooked.
A lot in here, and I am limited on time. So I'll say something I appreciate and two issues I have.
I appreciate your honesty that you don't think we're Christians and that we're perverting the Gospel. I of course disagree, but it's nice that you're honest about that and about a Great Apostasy since Constantine at least. It's somewhat frustrating talking to Protestants (with the exception of some Anglicans) who will motte-and-bailey their accusation of claiming to be more "Catholic" and accepting of Catholics and Orthodox, and then claim we've perverted the Gospel. So thank you for the honesty.
Now for two issues. Not my only two, but two that immediately jump out. First, 43:32 when asked how you would respond to the objection that you need an appeal outside of the Scriptures to have the Scripture, you never really responded to the objection. You just said it's the same objection that the Pharisees used. Which doesn't really respond to the objection, but the Pharisees also never made that objection. No where in the Bible do the Pharisees make that objection. Jesus, for all of His criticisms of the Pharisees and their hypocrisy, said to practice and observe what they say because they sit on the Seat of Moses. I'm disappointed, because I have yet to hear a good response to this objection, and I didn't hear any response here.
Second that jumps out, when asked what problems you see in history with the claims of the Apostolic faith at 22:07, you respond with the intercession of saints. This is bizarre to me, because as a historical question it's very clear that early Christians sought the intercession of saints, as did the Jews of Jesus' time. The Christians simply took up the Jewish practice of seeking the intercession of the righteous before God (see Job 42:7-8, 2 Maccabees 15:12-14, Matthew 27:47-49). For example: Sotah 34b
Raba said: It teaches that Caleb held aloof from the plan of the spies and went and prostrated himself upon the graves of the patriarchs, saying to them, 'My fathers, pray on my behalf that I may be delivered from the plan of the spies'. (As for Joshua, Moses had already prayed on his behalf; as it is said: And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun Joshua,17 [meaning], May Jah save thee [yoshi'aka] from the plan of the spies.)
Or the Tomb of Rachel, heavily associated with the intercession of the righteous departed, hence the references in Jeremiah 31:14-16 and Matthew 2:18:
“And I did not take her even to Bethlehem to bring her into the [inhabited region of the Holy] Land…but you should know that I buried her there by divine command, so that she would be of assistance to her children. When [the Babylonian general] Nebuzaradan exiles [the Israelites] and they pass by there, Rachel will emerge from her grave and weep and beg mercy for them, as it is said: "A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel is weeping for her children." And the Holy One, blessed be He, answers her, "'There is reward for your work... and the children shall return to their own border.'" (Jeremiah 31:14-16) - Rashi's commentary on the verse, from Pesikta Rabbati ch. 3.
For some Christian testimonies of seeking the intercession of the saints:
Hippolytus of Rome:
[Speaking of the three youths in the fire in Daniel 30] “Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you…” (Commentary on Daniel, 30.1 [A.D. 202-211]
Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels … as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
This next one will probably rankle a bit, since it’s a prayer to Mary (Theotokos), but it’s appropriate to the discussion. It’s a prayer on John Ryland’s Papyrus, from Egypt, around 250 A.D:
“Beneath your compassion we take refuge, Theotokos. Our petitions do not despise in time of trouble…”
Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . ” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
You can disagree with this and think the Church went apostate, I suppose sometime in the ante-Nicene period, adopting what you believe are unscriptural practices. What baffles me is that you claimed this as a historical argument, when history supports the practice.
indeed 🤛🤛🤛👊👊
All I have to say is “blessed my people Egypt” and “In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD” I wonder what country Protestant came from and did they get a prophet who talked about them
😢 I am an Egyptian Orthodox Christian, and we are disgraced by what the Holy Bible ordered, and we came from us. The first fathers who taught the world Christianity included Athanasius, Cyril, and Dioscorus. The first Bible to be written. Was it written with us? The first one who founded monasticism came from us, and he was the monk Antonius. The first monastery taught us medicine. We practiced medicine from us. My country is mentioned in the book. Holy more than 700 times, and Egypt has the largest number of anointed martyrs who were from us. So why the attack on those who taught the world Christianity? Why the attack on the Orthodox of the East?
American cultural imperialism. There is a point in which their notion of " true christianity" as is just "american style protestantism".
Because we started reading the Bible. Thanks to the protestant reformation.
❤Believe me, my friend, Protestantism is a sect that is fanatical about all other tawafs, even though the other tawafs are the oldest. Protestantism in Egypt hates us and hates the Orthodox. Does this call for love? They have deviated from teaching the Christian faith. @@enzocompanbadillo5365
@@enzocompanbadillo5365read the Bible and church history until the fourth century.
@@user-ye7xw9tf2j if you are sincerely seeking truth look for this book:( a dictionary of early Christian beliefs )
As a Protestant, this is a very disappointing dialogue. I couldn’t help but feel like the oriental position was being constantly misrepresented.
As an Orthodox, I wonder if people like knightfel will question you with ridiculous arguments, like they do us Orthodox?
@@ronfeledichuk531the guest pastor in this video lost all credibility with me when he equated Theosis with believing we become gods.
Good conversation. Too bad the Ortho bros have to use the common pathetic rebuttals:
-Terrible representation of Orthodoxy
-You don't understand Orthodoxy
-Protestants cherry pick the Father's
-I'm still Orthodox
Yadayadayada....on it goes.
I enjoy Samuel sharing his testimony. But Lucus knows exactly what he's doing- Pure Propaganda against Holy Orthodoxy. ☦️
*Lucas. I was upfront about my intentions for this interview.
@@methodministries Upfront about your intentions or not, it is still propaganda. I never accused you of ulterior motives.
@@priscillaxdestinyyou said he "knows exactly what hes doing-pure propaganda. "
@@Travis.L Yep. So i guess your interpretation skills are bad. Because I said he knows exactly what he's doing, then went on to list it... aka propaganda. But you read it & misinterpreted it as "he knows exactly what he's doing (implying some ulterior motive)" then asserting in addition it is all propaganda. As the writer of the comment, I can affirm it was the first & not the latter of the two.
@@priscillaxdestiny I enjoy @methodministries sharing this video. But you know exactly what you are doing-Pure Propaganda against Holy Protestantism. ✝️
I’m Anglican but I love the Coptic church-a great historical church. Marian worship is beautiful and many other Christians venerate the Saints too. Interesting show nonetheless and great discussion. Pax Christi.
As a catholic who is still convinced of iconacraphy so let me present this argument and let me hear your position.
If reaching god through an image is pagan don't you think this argument can work against Christianity.
1/ god the father can only be reached through his son
2/ the son of god is the image if the father
Thus the christian god can only be reached ( and worshiped) through an image
Different distinctions between literal images and how God made us
This argument doesn't really work because the Son and the Father are of the same substance. Icons are not of the same substance.
No authority from Scripture to bow down to images, it's forbidden. But you are commanded to worship the Lord Jesus.
For both 1 and 2
“Our Father, who art in Heaven…”
No images are needed to “reach out to God” as Jesus taught us in the Bible.
And to ad-lib Luther, images are not the problem. It’s how the heart holds the images that is the problem. If there is an un-Biblical attachment to an image, then one’s actions towards that image becomes sinful.
@@truthisbeautiful7492 Mosaic law forbids it under the Old Covenant because God was not part of creation and therefore no image could be made of Him. But Christians are under the New Covenant, and we have God's image through the Incarnation.
At 7:19, churches can lift anathemas
Lucas, as a fellow provisionist with leighton flowers i dont understand the creeping softness of EO in that group, it seems warren mcgrew isnt necessarily against it, maybe its just reinforcement against calvinism
Either they're not aware of how EO condemns all non-EO members, or, they don't care for their disdain for Calvinism.
@@methodministries that was always the awkward defense of leighton for talking to Andy Stanley on calvinism so that might be it, but it looks bad to the calvinists when we're in a sense holding hands with these other groups
@@methodministriesEO doesn't condemn anyone
Here is a prime example of 2 false teachers bearing false witness. "He never heard the Gospel"? You hear it throughout our services, hymns and prayers continously. This video is one lie placed on another put forth by a former "orthodox" who knew nothing of his orthodox faith.
That’s not the gospel. I’ve seen multiple orthodox liturgy and same with Catholic mass. Hours of chanting with no substance, no preaching. The word doesn’t cut your heart. There is no gospel preaching. I don’t see what the big deal is, it’s overrated. Doesn’t cut to your heart as say, a sermon from Spurgeon.
@KnightFel so according to a Protestant the gospel read during the liturgy, and then a 15 minute explanation isn't the gospel. Only a Protestant comes up with crap like that.
It’s not the gospel! Galatians 3 .. if anyone preaches another gospel let him be accursed. You have a different gospel from what Paul was teaching the Galatians. If it’s grace plus something else it’s not the gospel! Orthodoxy went off the rails centuries ago.
@MrMfloor please explain our another gospel?
Not charitable at all, I really appreciate Protestants that actually disagree with Orthodox without using strawman’s and ad-hominems, for example Gavin Ortlund is very respectable figure and charitable when it comes to these types of dialogues.
To compare schism in the early church with the innumerable splits in protestantism is laughable.
Also, this is such a poor representation of Orthodoxy, but yeah, keep cherry picking your Orthodox guests for your echo chamber.
I agree this was a poor dialogue, and the guest pastor didn’t represent orthodoxy very well, but the splits within Protestantism are not innumerable and nowhere near as severe. There are still only 4 major sects of Protestantism, reformed, Anglican, Lutheran, and Baptist. All others fall largely within these. But most importantly, we still consider eachother brothers in Christ, and do not claim the title of the one true church, which fundamentally makes our divisions less of a problem than yours.
If you consider the splits in protestantism, mostly over progressive issues (eg. feminism and lbgtq+) where do you see an end to splits? Another one is occurring as we speak in the CRC.
Protestantism is captured, overtaken by pop culture/liberalism. This is a far cry from schisms over papal inherency, or nature of God debates. I argue that liberalism has so overtaken western protestantism, mainline evangelicalism in particular - that the shape of that church is unrecognizable. Dissolved into the doctrine of branch theory.
The key distinction there is a Methodist and Reformed Baptist can look at each other, and disagree, but not call one another a heretic, and even do ministry together.
Our splits aren't nearly as big of a deal these days. And I'm fond of many Orthodox writers and thinkers.
Did Pastor Samuel mention the name of his former Coptic parish? Or the one at which his father served as a deacon? Has anyone verified his claims, or found any other former Copts that had similar experiences? As far as the internet is concerned, he’s like an anti-Orthodox that just appeared out of nowhere. I suspect his parish priest has a story as well.
And I thought I was into conspiracies 😅
I am his Sam's cousin by marriage, and the one time saw his father he was wearing priestly robes, so I'm pretty sure his story is legit.
No, we did not appear out of nowhere. We are basically the oldest sect in the world. Read history and you will know that we were great, but with the Islamic occupation, we did not appear much. With the presence of the Internet, we began to return to our world, the Christian world, not Martin Luther. 😡
@@JC_Denton Did you see his father in a church? If so, do you recall the name of the parish?
@@user-ye7xw9tf2j I’m not referring to the Copts - I’m well familiar with them and know that they are one of the oldest, continuous Christian traditions on Earth. I’m referring to Pastor Samuel specifically.
@@cassidyanderson3722 We the Copts endured what no Christian on the face of the earth could endure. We endured the torment of Emperor Diocletian and the killing of 800,000 Coptic Christians among us. We endured the Byzantines when they disagreed with us in doctrine and persecuted us. We endured the oppression of Islam and their racism towards us. Until now, no Christian has done anything like what they did. We are the last to watch for us in the year 2020 and every day. We are experiencing racism in the year 2015. Are you killing 21 martyrs from us in Libya? Surely I heard about them and saw them being slaughtered by the hands of the Muslims. After all of this, we were not spared from the Protestants, and despite all of this, no one defeated our church in order to fulfill the verse that is written, that the gates of hell did not prevail against you. Christ said, “The days will come when he will think.” Everyone who kills you is doing a service to God, and every day the one who kills us thinks he is doing a service to God. All this pain is for the sake of our love for Christ and the preservation of our faith. 😔
1. I'm a Methodist.
2. John Wesley studied Eastern Orthodoxy, and was fond of the concept of Theosis among other things.
3. I think this guy is a bit unfair to our Orthodox brethren. I've heard many of their leading thinkers speak kindly of Protestants and protestant theologians.
What a sad pack of lies against Holy Orthodoxy. 😢
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifested: everyone who does not do righteousness is not of God, *as well as the one who does not love his brother.* 1 John 3:10
Facts!! 💯💯
What has been said that is a lie?
@@stephenkneller6435 Don't even waste your breath.
pure propaganda
This false pastor knows nothing of Orthodoxy. He was shown to be absolutely clueless as to what our prayers and hymns teach by Father John Ivanoff, when they debated. This is a sad video.
Ortho-bros are so salty and so mad all the time on the internet. It’s like if ANYONE speaks out against orthodoxy they simply don’t know about it. It’s a joke argument.
@@KnightFelAnd it's always the converts. that are the most insufferable.