I don't mind Chris A., the host; I got used to seeing him way back at those awesome arguments between Dr. White and Sungenis, Pacqwa, Matatics et al (on YT as 'The Great Debate, I through X')
@@nuttysquirrel8816 the 'beyond belief', in this case is - since God settled the issue of homosexuality 4500 years ago in Lev. chapters 18 and 20 , by Jesus Christ in the Gospels ,in the majority of the Pauline Letters , the letters of the Apostle Peter , the letter of Jude and John the Beloved in Revelation - there in reality should not even be a debate concerning homosexuality. From Gen. to Revelation God has always made it known homosexuality will never be acceptable to Him.
Everything gets debated. The shape of the earth gets debated. The hypothetical results of battles between fictional superheroes get debated. The results of elections get debated. If a point of theology _isn't_ debated, that's the exception rather than the rule.
Hey thats so funny! The more you spit on gay people for being who they are, and unashamed of that, the quicker your religion dies and the clearer people see it as the biggest scam and threat to society.
As a Deist I would say: why would a homosexual still want to join that man made subjective interpretation of a possible god/gods with man made moralities and rules? Which homosexual could ever take someone for serious that still claims that homosexuality is a seduction of their devil?
I am a born again believer who has same sex attraction. I hate the lust of my flesh! And have to fight against those filthy thoughts daily. I have failed many times. But Gods word is TRUE, and i am a great sinner needing Jesus as my Great Savior.
So basically, everyone will sin one way or another. Some will just plainly condemn you as it is out of their uncharitable heart, as not all believers are given the compassion to understand the cross that some homosexual bears. It is easier to just hide and utter the word of Gospel and completely disregard the wisdom within to justify your view on those who are apparently different from you. I think this is the struggle of many Christians in their opinions on same sex attraction. From this simple prejudice, they unknowingly caused others suffering, most gays distance themselves from God because of this. They could not see God's love from the conduct of some of the believers. I as a gay man certainly struggle the most with the desire of the flesh, but I do my best to not give into them. Battles that, thankfully, I've won most of the time. And I had long made peace of my predilection because I am secure in knowing that God loves me no matter who I am, and what I am--a person with qualities and flaws.
@@Kim-ct5mn all fall short of the Glory of God , Christian or not - BUT a Christian will not continue in sin , meaning we will avoid sinning ; when we sin we will be convicted of sin , repent of it , and never go back to it . As a Christian , as long as i'm in a physical body that has a sin nature , I will be tempted to sin , and will do or say something that falls short of God's standard of behavior ; BUT I do not go out of my way to look for an opportunity to sin, and when I do screw up I Immediately go to God and confess it , repent of it , and make it point never to repeat it . There are circumstances when a Christian will need to go through a deliverance session with Christians trained in this area to break demonic strongholds that are tormenting a Christian with sin in specific areas that carried over from a former non Christian lifestyle .. Sinning is not a part of God's Kingdom , and He will not accept any excuses for it no matter how man wants to find a reason to condone it .
@@Kim-ct5mnUh no. Most conservative Christians accept the original comment above. It’s when for whatever sin (you pick it) is normalized as acceptable and it’s just someone’s lifestyle that they will be rebuked. Everyone knows we will all sin. What matters is that Christians try every day and pray that sins in their life will be mortified and become less controlling, and less by thought, word, and deed.
The biblical situation is in our identity and if it's not as a slave to Christ, it's a thistle unto a thorn bush. Keep renewing your mind in the Word, through the Grace of our Lord Jesus, the Christ.
He would have to say, "murdering Christian", "gluttonous Christian", "immoral Christian", "prostitute Christian" etc... This does not work in any multiverse.
False equivalent comparisons are like bad doctrine. A sex drive is a normal part of our Biology and brain. Because it might remind you it actually operates, through your default and innate programming, that's not sinful when you quickly decide to be sane. We don't have an appendage made where stealing or substance abuse or killing is one its few biological functions. A penis or vagina have limited yet obvious connections to the soul of a person.
@@jacobpursley1800 I agree with James White, but those are not compatible because they are actions and not desires. I still don't think it is okay to identify with desires which are sinful, but there is a distinction to be made.
The number of times Dr. Coles talked about his experience or another's experience was very telling. While he talked about Scripture, he seemed to value "experience' more highly. Also, if God is God, then he can redeem behavior and desires. If He can't do that, He is not a very powerful God. The old is gone, the new has come. I would not want an identifier of my old self attached to my new identity in Christ. That is holding on to the old.
I like Dr. White's style......He uses Dr. Coles' use of Greek against him. Dr. White also use the "experience" a lot just like Dr. Coles initially have.
The picture of the newness of people in the New Covenant presented in Jeremiah and Ezekiel encompasses new desire and new behavior. Dr Coles even said it was his experience with non-believers that spurred his quest to believe the things he now teaches. He wanted to help make homosexuals realize that God still wants them, assumedly without them realizing they are in sin. In short, Dr Coles is not namely focused on the Gospel of gathering his theology from the Bible.
God redeems; however, when we are redeemed, we are free FROM sin, not free TO sin. Prior to redemption we are to repent of our sins. Repentance means to turn away from our sins, not to intentionally live in our sins. If one claims to be saved, yet uses this an an excuse to continue living in sin, where they really saved in the first place?
I totally get the point that he’s trying to make when he refers to “American Christian “. The problem is I would never dare identify myself as an American Christian. I’m just a Christian.
So would you say that American culture has zero influence on the way you practice Christianity? Aren't American Christians simply the subset of Christians who are Americans?
@@RobertG3567 I am not just an American who happens to be Christian. I am a Christian who happens to be American. My identity is found in Christ, not in being from America. therefore, I am first a Christian and then anything else. There are many things that influence individuals Christianity. That doesn’t mean that we should put a bunch of other things in front of it and try to separate it as subsets of Christianity. I’m from Louisiana and I’m sure there are things here that influence my Christianity differently than being from California would or China or Canada. That doesn’t mean that I would call myself a Louisianan American Christian. I’m just a Christian. I’m not saying that he can’t have his struggles. What I’m saying is that he shouldn’t identify himself and label himself as the sinful struggle/Christian. I used to be an addict and an alcoholic. Even when I was still struggling with that early on in my Christian walk 7 1/2 years ago, I would’ve never labeled myself as an addict/alcoholic Christian. But I was a Christian, who struggled with the desire for alcohol and drugs. but the good Lord has set me free. We all have struggles and inclinations that we ought not act on. But we ought not label ourselves by those. If he wants to relate to people who struggle with same-sex attraction, then instead of calling himself a gay Christian, he could say that he is a Christian, who struggles with same sex attraction but it daily being set free.
I think the difference is. American by definition is neutral. It's a nationality. It can include cultural and political aspects, but in its simplest form, it describes someone who is legally identified as an American citizen. Gay by its definition is a homosexual. That is not neutral. That's like calling myself an adulterer, because I wrestle against adulterous thoughts when I see attractive wives. It's a ridiculously obvious oxymoron to the identity of an adopted, co-heir of Christ, who has washed the inside of my cup, with all its sinful desires, attitudes, intentions and orientations, as well as the outside, in my actions and words.
Most of us, when we turn to Christ, recognize how our sin contradicts His Word. We lay that burden down and allow Him to wash us of our sins. What I am hearing said here is "can I be saved, but hold on to this one thing". Your identity should be rooted in the Messiah rather than in your sexual desires.
@@razoredge6130a person may struggle with same sex attraction. We all struggle with sin, but if that person is saved they lean on Christ to help them with that struggle. What Gregory is advocating for is being identified by their sin. We don't do that as Christians. Our identity is in Christ alone.
So if I were to have a predisposition to any other sin, like murder, am I going to refer to myself as a "killer Christian"? No he's just being subversive and wrapping it in innocent looking packaging
And yet the murderer will stand judgment before god, and not you, and he may be allowed entrance into his eternal kingdom, where as you may not be. God knows you not only by your actions, but by your heart.
The main problem is that Coles is utterly incapable of objectively 'proving' the thing he claims to be. A man can prove he is a man, objectively. An Arminian cannot do so, he can only assert it. Same with a 'gay' man. He has no other basis for his claim than his gratuitous profession.
The way Dr Coles rejects his desires in order that he may be more in line with the teachings of Jesus is admirable. I’ve seen many of these debates where same sex attracted people either justify their lifestyles or refuse to admit that it is sinful. Refreshing to see someone who struggles with this dealing with it in what seems to be the biblical way.
I would chock much of that up to nerves, if I’m being honest. He could have been a little less manic, but it wasn’t bad overall. I don’t agree with him though, and I think he is a dangerous person who needs to be strictly denounced, and his poisonous theology attacked. Good job, James 👍
Excellent debate. Thank you to all involved. It is good and healthy to listen in as these things are thought through biblically. What I took away is we are always to be in pursuit of desires that align with our God and Creator. Christ is Lord.
@@joelrivardguitarif you're going to speak on empirical evidence will you also include statistical data from the CDC regarding alternative lifestyles such as the type that are being discussed in this debate? Will you include data from the Roman Catholic Church and the controversy regarding priests engaging in alternative lifestyle practices with minors? How about the cultural practices by the ancient Roman, Greek, and Indian empires that specifically targeted male minors?
For me, it wasn't excellent at all. Dr. Coles did not use Biblical argumentation in his debate. Rather, he points to his experience and seems to also point out that a person grows up gay and seems to infer that this is natural. Although that is also incorrect thinking and is for another topic for a debate, there was not any Biblical scriptures to back this view that Gay Christianity is Christianity. He then uses some Greek words and brings up Celibacy as a form of Gayness. (which is not actually the same, as Dr. White corrects him later). That is why Dr. White uses in his initial argumentation emphasize on "experience" in his reasoning and the use of Greek words to counter Dr. Coles' reasoning. As I listen more to Dr. Coles, it felt like listening to an addict trying to argue that Cannabis and drugs are good for people. I just felt sorry for him. This is God's view about this: Romans 1:24 - 32 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.
The Bible also speaks of being femininity men are not to be feminine, but to be men. I agree all sexual perversion is sin, but to excuse sexual sin by saying everyone struggles is rather silly. I can not stand it when people think they are being smart say "oh Hitler was a Christian, he said he was!" That is stupid, to think one can be in direct violation of the word of God and be Christian is to be no Christian at all, there for by their fruits you will know them. Would anyone be ok with a Christian pedophile? Come now, think about it. Our culture is so over sexualized it is ridiculous, a Christians identity is in Christ not his/her (only two) sexualiy.
I am soooooo glad that there's a Christian that doesn't struggle with sin !!!! You make God a liar and you're a legalist. Have you not read 1st John ? The sign or fruit is that the person has a life of daily conviction and repentance. Some people won't be free from a particular sin until glory. Your pride for example...
There is absolutely no universe in which homosexuality can be reconciled with biblical christianity. Never and under no circumstances. There is no 3rd way on this issue. We must call an abomination for what it is.
There is absolutely no universe in which adultery can be reconciled with biblical christianity. Never and under no circumstances. So if you've ever been tempted that way, then you're an abomination. If you think this isn't parallel, you didn't hear Dr. Coles's position. No one here is arguing that homosexual practice or lust is good.
@@KevinDay but did you hear Dr. White's argument regarding the parallel between covetousness and homosexuality? The point is not that being tempted to commit adultery is a sin, but identifying with the temptation and calling it uncontrollable is. On top of that, Paul describes homosexuality as contrary to nature, so it is a step beyond adultery in that sense. I see your point, but if someone loves Christ they should be disgusted with their temptations and through the Spirit attempt to be rid of them, and saying it is impossible to rid yourself of constant temptations to sin is denying the power of the Spirit to continually sanctify your heart and mind.
@@first3numbers I agree, no one should say it's impossible, but saying people have to refuse to admit they continue to struggle with a particular sin is as bad as hyper-charismatic preachers telling people to refuse to admit they have an illness or disability. Faith isn't about denying reality. So if in a particular context, "gay" would be understood to be an unchangeable, fundamental aspect of one's being, then I agree it would be a terrible idea to use it. But if it simply refers to the fact that someone is generally able to be tempted by people of the same sex rather than the opposite, then it's not saying that Christ is unable to change them any more than saying I'm "just a sinner saved by Grace," is saying that God is unable to change me.
@@KevinDay Why would you need such a label? Just say you struggle with the desire, you don't need to refer to yourself as "gay" for the sake of brevity.
Dr. Coles, denied "disordered desires" but called it as "capacities of attraction." Since Coles sees it as capacities of attraction, that's his reason not to repent of it. Those desires/temptations that Coles describes them as, were not clearly demonstrated as sinful by White since he did not press Coles when he redefined it as capacities of attraction. It's unfortunate because White had his best statement at 2:00:00 but did not finish that argument. One thing for sure is Dr. Coles likes to drink a lot of water. James could have shown that part of being a Christian is being a new creature, which entails a new way of thinking which is more ordered as Christ's glory is seen (Col 3:1). James could have tied the gospel into the debate.
Brilliant-- I noticed this as well. The definitions were the true matter of contention. Coles does not recognize his active, intentional and identity-spurring sin as disordered, and worthy of repentance and deliverance, but rather an attraction the should be channeled elsewhere, as useful potential & "capacity".
You will not rid of disordered desires as long as you are on planet earth or milky way galaxy. Be cautious as Coles. Galatians 6:1 NKJV Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
@@patricklacson Wrong. Repent is to acknowledge God's way and "think differently or change one's mind"... Strongs and Thayer say that. Repent IS NOT OUTWARD PERFECTION. Coles is ridding of any possible temptation by repenting. Not in your misinformed manner. Paul did not cease to have his thorn. Like Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16, lyou would have insulted Paul for his continued thorn and identifying himself as "chef of sinners."
This topic only makes sense if people also think that "fornicating Christian", "minor attracted Christian", "stealing attracted Christian" seems normal... 🙄
🙄 Being gay is NOT in a person's control! Stealing and fornication are. Is there a word for a virgin fornicator? There IS a word for a person who has same sex attraction but hasn't..."gay". If not what word do you use to describe a person who is same sex attracted? If you say "homo" "F*g" or "pervert" or some other "put down"; be advised you are saying it is OK to be a "F** Christian " which would destroy your own point....
@@waynepoint Aah here we come at the crux of the problem. You assume that the proclivity of the flesh to be tempted in one area should be treated different than in another area. FYI temptation of the flesh is in no one's control! We just all have weaknesses in different area's as fallen man. This goes for the pedophile as much as the same sex attracted and yes also people struggling with extreme anger, pride, greed etc. Whether a person has "merely" sinned in their heart or in deed is irrelevant. The point remains...we do not identify ourselves with our struggles or fleshly temptations, habits or weaknesses. So why should we do this in particular with same sex attraction? The same God that can sanctify the insecure wifebeater with anger issues broken by their past, or the (yes) 'virgin fornicator' with the porn addiction, can sanctify the Christian dealing with same sex attraction. Whether that means taking that same sex attraction away, Wether it means exercising the fruit of the spirit; self control despite the feelings and be satisfied in Christ, Wether it means developing natural attraction for the opposite sex. (all of which are scenario's that happen). The point is we find our identity in Christ and who God says that we are. Not our fleshly shortcomings. So hoe a Christian should approach it: *I AM NOT MY (INCLINATION TO) SIN. I AM A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST BEING SANCTIFIED DAILY, DESPITE MY FLESHLY SHORTCOMINGS, TEMPTATIONS AND HABITS. THE LATTER ARE WHERE I FALL, NOT WHO I AM (IN CHRIST).* Hope with this you understand my initial comment better.
@@waynepoint Homosexuality is in a persons control, in the sense they choose to engage in that depravity.. it’s obvious that the scripture is not your authority. And that is the difference in our belief about this subject
@@eagleclaw1179He's talking about ppl who have an attraction to others of the same sex but live celibate. The person debating James White goes further saying it also is a sin just to lust after another man in ones head and heart. How exactly is that engaging in depravity? By saying ppl with same sex attraction are an abomination even if they live celibate and chaste in mind and body is wicked. You are making burdens too great to bear and not lifting a finger to help bear the load.
@@typefinn Homo heidelbergensis was the inventor of religion. So god created us as homo heidelbergensis in his image, then we evolved to homo sapiens, and now we humans look more advanced than god. Nice Christian fiction.
This was good, but wished there was more discussion around chosen identity, rather than temptation. Yes, we have temptations but for a Christian is it inappropriate to take on the identity of our temptations.
I believe identity is a human concept. God's law consider sins regardless of identity. Homosexual espousing their sexuality is but another example to the sin of Pride, just as there are some proudful Christians. It is not exclusive to the gays but it is certainly not painting them in a good light.
100%. In my humble opinion, it didn't appear that Dr. Coles was repentant of his SSA. To wish to identify with a group that performs activities that are so clear to be an abomination to our Lord is incredible brash.
Not sure about this one. In our weaknesses we are made strong. Our testimony is a great witness to be proclaimed. Our testimonies often consist in God overcoming our temptations and weaknesses, or turning those into strengths.
What a refreshing debate. Thanks, Dr. Coles for not being a shrill, harpy alphabet warrior. We pray that God brings deliverance to your heart and mind and that you’ll accept it with gladness.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Yes, and to change your mind is to change your actions. Faith without works is dead. All those who practice sin cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
@@holygeneration7good thing its God who gives us faith as a gift, and not our repenting that saves us. Repenting is a result of salvation not the cause of it.
@@holygeneration7 Faith is given by God. Faith always results in works. “Faith without works is dead” does not mean that you have to prove you have faith. It means if you have faith then you will have works because the result of having faith is that it demonstrates fruits. Repentance also is a result of God working in a person and not a result of a person “choosing” to change. The scriptures is clear that a person is born in bondage to sin, just as Jesus said, “he who sins is a slave of sin”. A person cannot just choose one day to stop sinning because they are controlled by it. It is only until God makes a person alive that they change. Go ahead and read Ephesians 2:1-12 Romans 6 Romans 5 Colossians 2
@@eagleclaw1179 Wonderful explanation of faith and works, i commented on the same Scripture recently. The so-called churches do not teach repentance nor good works after being saved. Ive read recently more than one Scripture that says God judges us by our deeds. thanks bro !
@@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx Well, I don't take the other poster as respecting Cole's position on Side B (I sure don't), but rather his celibacy in light of his attraction. I do think his position is dangerous and simply feeds certain temptations related to so called "gay identity," but his celibacy is admirable as far as that goes.
@@Henry._Jones I have been doing semen retention for almost a year now, and yes it's tough the first month, but it becomes like all things, a habit and easy to do. nevertheless, sin is sin, and we all should strive for perfection
Galatians 6:1 NIV Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
The bible is a man-made book with man-made wisdom (Kain and Abel) and man-made errors : + light wasn't there before the sun + the Earth wasn't there before the sun + Adam and Eve didn't exist + insects have six legs not four legs + homosexuality is not a seduction by a satan, but a natural born healthy sexual orientation with an evolutionary meaning + the "firmament" is not a solid "roof" over the world + the sun can’t be stopped for having longer light in a battle, it already stands still + etc etc If the bible would be the word of god or inspired by god it would be without errors, but it isn't.
I would say the Bible is not in its original form anymore- it surely has been corrupted. Regardless, the concept of salvation in Christianity doesn't make sense at all- like God becoming human and then dying for your sins and I am not gonna even talk about Trinity, which is another BS.
This whole thing is wrong. You do not debate GOD, or THE PLAN OF SALVATION, or The example God's son Jesus set for us, or ULTIMATE SACRIFICE TO FULFILL THE PLAN OF SALVATION. God has and always will love all his children. But God does not and will not ever love the sins we commit. No one is born gay. The life choices of being in a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex, or someone outside of marriage or with someone you are not married to is and always will be a sin and there is no debate that is ever going to change that because these are not human laws, these are God's laws. END OF SUBJECT.
I think this was great because James drew out the issue clearly and the line in the sand was clear. It was a win for him of course, though I think Greg did fine. He had to know he wasn't going to win a debate against the most prolific debater of our age, but he was well spoken and didn't try to hijack the subject matter or derail it. We should never adjectivally modify "Christian" with any desire or attraction that we need to repeatedly repent of. Wonderful debate. Fun to watch.
One can not repent of temptation, they can only repent of sins. Otherwise Jesus would have needed to repent: “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15 KJV
@@ronburgundy2738 I listened to the whole thing except for 5 minutes. Basically, to sum up the whole thing, Dr. Cole believes his homosexual desires shouldn't be repented of because its beneficial not to have to desire women and Dr. White believes they should be repented of because homosexual desires are against nature. The end. Of course, I agree with Dr. White on this because I think his perspective is literally drawn right out of scripture.
It is wonderful to hear such debate on contemporay Gay debate.Both the debators showed great respect for one another. Because I cannot think of having such debate in Pakistan.
This is so boring. Homosexuality is a sin, the bible says so. If you don't believe in the Bible, you're not a Christian. If you believe homosexuality is not a sin, you're not a Christian, you're deceived. There is no confusion here. Satan is the author of confusion.
Respect to the speakers for sharing honestly, but this debate was a pure display of how desperately the church needs Christ’s guidance in these areas. He promised that He would not leave us as orphans so I trust that in due time we’ll receive revelation. He is faithful!
We have His revelation in His word. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." Keyword, complete. We have all we need in the word. Waiting for new revelation is how you end up with Mormonism or JWs. God's word is complete, and it's enough for us to do every good work.
@@MansterBear I appreciate your thoughts. However, revelation by definition refers to the disclosure of unknown facts and realities. The truth, unlit the day of our Lord, is that we know only in part. Scripture does NOT bring anyone into full knowledge of anything. It does lead and instruct you in relationship with the One who can and will. We must continue to remain in Him, waiting for His Word and His return. It is not my grasp of the scriptures that keep me nor is it my ability to earnestly wait on His coming that keeps me. It is the seal of the Holy Spirit. In Him, there is no fear of false doctrine of any kind.
My exact thought as well. Especially given that Rosario was also an English professor and may have the same training in thinking that Dr Cole has. I think she will better appreciate Dr. Cole's thought process and the dilemma he feels. I think this debate was very good, but I think Dr. White is short on compassion and grace in his delivery.
@@rebalspirit Isn't "rebuking with God's truth" the absolute ~most~ compassionate thing he--or anyone else--could do?! If anything Dr. White was the only one dispensing actual Compassion....writ large.
I simply cannot listen to this guy defend his gayness. Because it's all personal. It's all about him him him, and his virtuous in his lack of lust for women. It's astounding the lack of self-awareness of his own vanity.
Your comment is very uncharitable to what Gregory Coles actually believes. It makes me think you didn’t really listen to the debate and what each side was arguing
God bless you Dr. White, I’m not a Calvinist by any stretch but this man is a warrior standing fast on God’s Word, in how it’s applied in this conversation. My discernment is telling me that the “pro” argument held by the other guy here is a Trojan horse, to slowly allow the terms Gay into the church body, and incrementally, as the enemy typically does, let in the rest of the LGB… lifestyle. I’m cannot happen. Stand on biblical truth my brothers and sisters. We love our neighbors enough to tell them the truth, as Dr. White does here. God bless you all
Amen, obkook7205. I'm not a Calvinist (at least not a hyper calvinist) nor could I ever be convinced to be one after having read the Scriptures, but I still look up to James White in the faith. He has gone up to bat for true followers of Christ on many occasions, and I really enjoy listening to him.
Reading some of the comments made me wonder who actually watched the debate. Dr. White's strongest point was to say that same-sex attraction was indicative of disordered desire, but he did not adequately answers Coles' contention that in order to be consistent, you would have to affirm that opposite sex attraction for a married person to be attracted to someone else aside from one's spouse would also be a disordered desire. Coles differentiation between sins both internal (lust) and external (same-sex relations) and the capacity to sin was a very helpful one which Dr. White rejected. White does not accept the category of sexual orientation because it is not in the Bible, but Coles' point is that the Apostle Paul simply did not have that category available to him in his first century context, but that does not mean that the concept is not valid. Should we reject the idea of quantum mechanics because the Bible has no conceptual category for it? White wants to argue that the mention of "greedy" 1 Corinthians 6:9 is an inward disposition which is not necessarily acted upon, but this does not line up with the context of the passage, an argument that Coles missed the opportunity to refute. 1 Corinthians 6:9 speaks of fully acted out, unrepentant sin, in Paul's responding to activity in Corinth where believers were taking one another to secular/pagan law courts, which was an acted out external action, something more associated with unrepentant sexual sin as opposed to inward lust. White never fully answered Coles' exegesis of Romans 1:26ff that the sin of same-sex lust is an illustration that points to the depravity of humanity more generally. Instead, White wanted to make the message of 1 Corinthians 6:9 the same as Romans 1:26ff, which is not the case, as Coles pointed out. Much of the debate comes down to how the Scripture uses the term epithumia for "desire", which in some contexts implies sin and in other contexts does not.
Gregs main points ..... i have & continue to repent of lust. However being a Matt 19:11-12 eunic as fearfully & eonderfully made with a purpose is not a sinful condition. He is using the terms of the gay culture to communicate to them a message opposite the message of the Evangelical Church ...... your are reprobates, abominations disordered persons ...... Greg is working to commumicate with a group the church has written off.
@clarkemorledge2398 Since you brought it up(!): no; the reason to deny the "idea of quantum mechanics" is ~not~ "because the Bible has no conceptual category for it", as you posit (for your would-be Example). The proper reason to Deny that Idea is that God's word (not to mention the actual Laws of Physics!) refutes the foundations and tenets, as well as the ever-changing Details of 'outer space-ism' pre-emptively. So there's that.....
@@perrylkent The Church hasn't "written them off"; where'd you get that idea?! They have the same "...and such were some of you" Offer of repentance and Salvation as everybody else has. You're not being "written off" just because you don't get a special "you don't have to repent of ~that~ abomination(!), just everything ~except~ that" clause. What hubris; what PRIDE......
Agreed that a large percentage of comments show a lack of understanding what the debate was even about and many of them don’t even understand Gregory’s position
Despite all of the comments, I was very impressed with both sides of the debate who made thorough thought-out arguments. One of the better Christian debates I have watched
I love listening to James White debate. I could listen all day. And I have to admit, I started this debate expected that I wouldn’t like this other guy at all. I usually find people on that side of the debate on this topic and related topics to be insufferable (although Dr. White’s most insufferable opponent I’ve heard so far was a Catholic apologist). But this man was great to listen to! While I don’t agree with him, he was a great debater, he was very well spoken, he was knowledgeable, he came prepared, and he explained his views very well and very clearly. This was very enjoyable to listen to, with none of the tension that I generally feel during a debate. I will say that I believe this man’s views of being a gay Christian are not the norm among those who are proponents of this language.
Is it better if he says that's he's a celibate Christian? Either way ,don't this acknowledgement simply give glory to God who keeps him ? I mean being a gay Christian doesn't attract people to be with u as a partner .if anything, it's like a shield
It sounds like this gentleman is embracing his homosexuality rather than allowing God through His word and His Church to heal him. If I had this attitude I would have never been delivered from my fornication and addiction to pornography and drugs addiction. Somethings God delivered immediately, but some took time but all the time me acknowledging my sin and hate for it and crying out for deliverance… His attitude is as embracing his femininity. Today, when I have met men and women who are addicted to porn you can see it in their eyes. They almost have a seductive demeanor. This man denies the Power of God… Is not our hope as we spend time with God to be daily delivered from whatever sin? He needs to be asked if he wants freedom from this sin.
Brethren in Christ, is this us greeting each other with a holy kiss and the peace of Christ? We work out our salvation alone with God through the free gift of the Paraclete to convict us of ours and the world’s sin. If God has turned this person’s face to Him and said , “Follow me “ then who are we to undo the work of God? Those whom He chooses are on the Highway to Holiness, detailed in Isaiah 35: 8-10. Some are further in God’s knowledge than others, but let us encourage other children of God. God said, “be Holy, as I am Holy” This was not a commandment, but a promise to us. His word shall not return void. Our loving Father is completing His work in us, if left unto us, we would fail. When the Christ returns, “we shall be like Him” 1 John 3 1-3. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Hallelujah. May He bless you and keep you. May His face and His grace shine upon you.😃
@@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (We are to become more like Christ daily.. Christ finished the work now we walk in it… for someone to say we don’t have do nothing would mean our faith is dead… Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. An American gospel will tell you you do not have to repent simply believe. But the gospel tells us to believe and repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” when I heard the gospel, I took my sin very serious. I was convicted to the heart I did not look for a way to continue in my sin.
@@believer8793 Child of God. Trust that God can do what He says He will do. Every knee shall bow to our Almighty God and King. There are even “fools” on God’s Highway of Holiness. Isaiah 35: 8. God decides in His infinite wisdom whom He will bring to Him and our insignificant flesh minds cannot understand the mind of God. He is the Potter and we are His clay. However, you have seen our Sovereign Father’s goodness to all. In His mercy, He sent His willing Son to deliver us all from our flesh sin by His sacrifice for us. The free gift of Holy Spirit, sent from Jesus towards us, our Helper, our Comforter gives us all remembrance of Jesus and guides us minute by minute to be more Christ-like. He gives us a flesh heart instead of a stone one, we have His law written on our hearts. God and Jesus come to us and tabernacle with us and we are filled with the living waters that are visible to others as fruits of the Spirit. I.e.Love, kindness, tolerance, patience. He is refining us like silver, through fire, where impurity and dross is burned away. It’s an ongoing forward process, with many boulders in the way. I am not American and indeed you are correct when you say we are to believe and repent. The love of God is in you, trust His plan for all of mankind. His work on the cross for us continues each and every minute of the day, until He returns. Be not troubled and rest in His assurances. The eternal peace and love that is Christ be with you forever. Hallelujah and Glory alone to the Father.🙂
A good thing to remember that the most simple explanation is most often the correct one. The fact that this kid has to set up every one of his answers by redefining almost every word he uses before he uses it shows me that he is severely struggling to defend his point which means that he knows his argument is weak and he knows in his heart he's wrong he just would rather do this than wrestle with his own sinfulness and repent for something he feels he shouldn't have to repent for and that's sad first off but secondly it's deadly for him because I am not sure if Jesus accepts him as a child of his when he is defying God on one of only two sins he calls abominations in our text. Good luck to him I wouldn't want to risk my salvation to defend an idea that he and most gay people know they cannot really defend if truthful with themselves.
It doesn’t matter whether you struggle with same sex attraction or not. As a believer, you still don’t identify as gay. Why would you identify with sin? I really don’t understand this argument.
It is not about identifying with sin, it is more about being truthful to oneself and others by recognizing one's flaw. "Gay" Christian will know his struggle with his flaw and avoid sinning. Besides no one likes to be called their entire existence as sinful.
@@Kim-ct5mn what I’m stating is not an opinion. Even as believers, we all have struggles we could easily identify with, but we don’t do that. We are called to identify as new creations in Christ and to be transformed by the renewal of our minds in Christ Jesus. Not walking around saying we are same-sex attracted or drug addicts.
I think when we claim a certain title, it tells a lot about the heart condition. Also, not only claiming the title, but to be associated with a group that's name is associated with "pride," which the Bible states are the children of the Leviathan’s. I am an ex addict and I've never claimed to be an addict. I am a child of God who has struggled with addiction. But i also understand His struggle, but it has to be a struggle and not a title that you claim. It's the celebration of the sin that is harmful ❤
@JesusistheonetrueGod but also, if you are born again and baptized in repentance, you are walking in Jesus's righteousness and not your own, but you're continually working on yourself through His righteousness and Spirit. If you are fighting the sin nature, you no longer have a sin nature and are not sinning.
1timothy: 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 15 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”-and I am the worst of them all.
@@sarahbethlauritzen5105 My sister, I'm afraid it's easier for you than for me. After all, there are more women walking around almost butterball naked than there are men. That is not to say that I believe we shouldn't have clear thoughts, but the ladies certainly aren't trying to make it easy for us.
It is a very nuanced debate, at times centering on the understanding of words, in the end I think both debaters are very close, its just that Dr. Coles has to let go of that last nugget of his old self he is clinging to and fight sinful orientations/desires/lusts with the rest of us, until we meet the Lord in glory. Dr. Coles seems to be a confused man, on the one hand he agrees with 99% of what Dr. White says; yet he wishes to hold to the a tiny technicality on the distinction between orientation, desire and lust to find a copout and not have to FULLY pursue sanctification all the way to the root level. He does himself a disservice by constantly comparing to heterosexuality, because anyone will agree that the desire for sex can be fulfilled in sanctity trough marriage, whereas the unnatural part of the homosexual orientation is that it has no sanctified creation ordinance expression (ironically, he knows this and that's why he has chosen celibacy; which leads up to question again, why make your sinful/unnatural orientation part of your personal identity and qualify our christianness with sin?) I'm very thankful for both men and their preparation, as it has given me tools to better think this issues and be prepared to give answer to people struggling with similar situations.
A breathe of fresh air ! A real level headed debate ! A very rare event ! Thank you Dr.White for standing on sola Scriptura , Truth will set you free !
An area in this debate that I think could've been discussed more, is the definition of "Gay Christian." Dr. White seemed content to agree with the term that it meant 'someone who has a general attraction to someone of the same sex.' I would've liked Dr. White to ask Dr. Coles about the other, more explicit areas of a gay lifestyle. Ex: for someone who does these things, are they considered "Gay?" The obvious answer is 'yes,' and because being Gay is much more (and worse) than just simply being attracted to the same sex, but includes acts that are an abomination, then it's clear that there cannot be a Gay Christian.
Great point! It's NOT just about sex with someone of the same sex! It involves so much more than that.Let alone the perverted things that gay couples do in the bedroom! That in itself is a discussion! Smh..
What about Dr Coles position that is hard to understand? Bringing up a "gay lifestyle" would be wholly irrelevant. (White did bring it up, btw) Take two college freshmen.. both virgins..neither dating...same classes hobbies and group of friends..everything c9ncerning how they live day to day (lifestyle) the same. But one is gay the other straight. The ONLY difference is in their head. When they jerk off one withh be thinking of a cheerleader the other the football QB.
I know when it comes to debates, that you don’t necessarily waste time on something that isn’t essential to the debate.. White is using his opponents term “gay Christian”, obviously you would have a problem with it, but don’t confuse it with white actually accepting that there are “gay Christians”, because anyone who know white’s materials knows that he doesn’t believe that. It’s just for the debate that’s all
Anyone who can read the bible with any sense at all would know the following: A. Having a same sex attraction is not a sin. It's a temptation. B. Lusting after someone of the same sex is a sin. Same for lusting after the opposite sex. C. Having sex with the same sex is a sin. Can you have "gay Christians"? Absolutely. Can you have "practicing gay Christians"? Not so simple. God doesn't rank sins, because they are all breaking his commandments. If you're guilty of one, you're guilty of all. The point to a Christian's life is to develop and grow to be more and more Christ-like, which means to sin less and less as your walk goes on. You can't pick and choose which commandments you want to follow. If you steal and never plan to stop or don't try to stop... you'd certainly have to ask yourself if you're actually a Christian. If you have homosexual sex and never plan to stop or don't try to stop... you'd certainly have to ask yourself if you're actually a Christian. You are welcome to spin the scriptures any way you wish, but that doesn't change the truth... it only makes you feel better.
I’ll make this three hour discussion simple: If you mean one who struggles against something they know to be a sin, yes. If you mean someone who accepts their sin and indulges in it, no.
@michaelchenier6377 u said church people...100% agreed....u know why...because all modern-day apostate denominational Christianity aka churchianity led by HIRELINGS aka pastors especially 501c3 tax exempt buildings aka churches are corporations and businesses that are false teachers....
@@IronFire116That catch phrase isn't an answer applicable to reality. Mr Cole is not raping people or even strangers. Mr Cole is not having anal sex in a pagan temple to please a fertility god with obedience in passion. Romans 1 v23,26 specifies this this yet false doctrine ignores these details with a blanket. Mr Cole is not abusing another with anal sex. * Every scripture used to condemn gays is either abuse, pagan, or a responsibility free sex orifice practiced by heterosexuals.
To us simpletons: If a child can be born from a male and male or female and female, there would be a lesson to be learned for Dr. Coles in this “debate.” But, since simple is still complicated in today’s terms, thank you Dr. James White for your faithfulness to Truth. Praise be to God. Christ is King 🙏🏾
Is that what he said? He doesn't look upon them as in need of repentance? Are you talking about unsaved gay friends of his, or "gay christian" friends of his? Just want clarity. Thanks.
@@eddiejones5702 - no, he didn’t say this specifically about friends or the “gay community “ (which he still seems to be a part of), but, his lack of concern over their souls/that they are still in sin, I thought, was revealing … it was what he didn’t say
A Christian isn’t “someone seeking to live in obedience to Jesus”. A Christian is someone who’s been born of His spirit and washed in His blood. Now, being born of His spirit and washed in His blood will absolutely result in said person seeking to live in obedience to Jesus.
Seems like Dr. Coles is attempting to use the term "Gay Christian" as a way to describe his personal experience and as a rhetorical way of approaching and evangelizing potential homosexual converts. The problem is his experience is exceedingly rare as he pointed out so almost no one can relate to it and also that term is very confusing term for all involved. "Gay" is antithetical to traditional Christian orthodoxy and "Christian" is antithetical to the homosexual way of life. Words matter and doctrine matters. The Gospel converts people not rhetorical devices. He says he's a theological nut but The desire to use such an unbiblical term indicates a lack of theological understanding hence his lack of focus on the seriousness of mental sanctification. (How we think, what we say)
Great points there. Words do matter and gay and Christian are very at odds. I also see the term gay Christian like a trojan horse. it's like the slippery slope that started gay rights, and look where we are now. Near half the churches are infiltrated and some are taken over by it. This will just finish the conservative churches if they fall for it.
Im doing the same ...... I play for a gay rugby team. Columbus Kodiaks. I am trying to use non Evangelical language simply because the evangelical church has spent so much energy calling the gay community reprobates,faggots, abominations & disordered persons they cannot hear the "gospel" as good news anymore.
you and people like you are the reason people with this experience are damned to experience the “homosexual way of life” forever. no grace. no tact. just judgement.
We have someone here on stage portraying himself to be in the same category as Paul. Projecting himself as a celibate Saint worthy to be admired, the eunuch. Someone so in touch with Jesus and knowledgeable of His word that he can debate openly about his convictions (even if the category of sin he is defending flies in the face of God’s word). And then he wants to attach the word ‘gay’ to those convictions and normalize them to the degree that others will accept them as a new category of Christian. And then we have all the ridiculous comments in this thread about how wonderful he is for remaining celibate. What a horrible struggle he must be enduring. And ‘don’t we all struggle with sin, after all?’ Applauding his self-deception thinking themselves to be of high moral character and ‘loving’ for doing so. If this young man were to pass from this life to the next tomorrow, he would meet the God who created Him and stand before His judge. All the lies and deception will dissolve instantly. He makes a mockery of God’s word and God’s will for humanity, excusing away this sinful condition as some sort of dysfunctional malady or defect of creation only he has the capacity to understand. As if his experience rises above God’s design. There is no shame or remorse for teaching others to do the same. He has created his own self-righteous place to stand. We were not born again to serve ourselves or the ideologies of this world. We were bought with a price and now serve the King of Kings. That seems to be a hard pill for many to swallow. This is nothing more than mind twisting and language games (with a healthy dose of emotion) to manipulate others into buying this. If ‘it is written’ isn’t good enough for us, we need to get on our knees and find out why. Bottom line, Cole is advocating that it is okay to have unnatural desires towards the same sex as long as you don’t act on them. You can somehow take solace in identifying with this carnal and wicked nature as some sort of badge of honor. In reality that very mindset leads to corrupting the purpose and will of God for His creation...full stop. As does all other sinful mindsets that must be rejected at their roots. Who is giving him the platforms to teach in this manner? Who is reading his books? Apostate Christians, that’s who.
Ghandi once said about his experience of British Christianity ‘’I like their Christ but I don’t like their Christian’’ the same could be said by many ppl throughout the world about much of American Christianity. I tend to see it as ppl of faith are supposed to only engage in sex within committed lifelong relationships and anybody outside of a committed lifelong relationship is called to celibacy whether gay or straight thus for a person of faith to be same sex attracted and to identify as gay is just being truthful just like a heterosexual person of faith is just being truthful when they identify as being straight. For a heterosexual man who is in a committed lifelong relationship with a woman to have desires for other women is normal and natural but the sin is in actively pursuing those desires in the thought life and in seeking out other women to fulfill those desires with in reality. The same is true about a man who has same sex attraction or desires. The sin is in pursuing those desires in the thought life and in seeking out men to fulfill those desires with in reality but not in the same sex attraction itself
From listening to this debate, I find it very difficult. Sanctification is possible if the individual is single, and not in a gay marriage. But when the relationship has stepped into a gay marriage, with children involved ( adoption). I believe that sanctification would be very difficult.
I don't know what to make of things these days. There has to be some sort of standard. Are people in common law relationships damned? I know a gay life or marriage isn't the ideal either. I'm not arguing for it. It's led to a lot of culture rot, and is actively promoted to children now.
I don’t know what to think either. Not damning, not supporting… im not one of them so I don’t know how they feel. If it’s a sin and can be repented off, and changed, then why isn’t it as easy for them as when addicts come to Christ? If it’s a fundamental Are You Or Aren’t You, then is it just similar to people being born with physical conditions, who don’t get to participate in certain activities? Some people don’t have legs to run, some people don’t have a path to marriage/sex? It also doesn’t just doesn’t sit right with me that they’d be divinely excluded from the gift of union… I don’t know. Paul had his thorn in his flesh.. I seem to have my own too. God bless anyone struggling with this , I hope you can find the answer
@@rocknrolan7371 God designed the nuclear family with a man, woman, and child(ren) model because it is a type of Family that He is building. It is for that reason Christ is called the Husband, the Church is called the Bride of Christ, and the ppl who are called by God during and after the Millennium will be referred to as Their children. Homosexual "unions" are designed to further blind ppl to the true gospel.
@@rocknrolan7371I hear ya. For me it's like the Bible is condemning same gender sex activity most of which any christian today would condemn. With the idol worship attached to it, the pedophilia, the lustfulness of it all. I would even go as far to say it was written to people who considered themselves heterosexuals maybe even married but engaged in that activity for different reasons. None involving love or commitment. I think that is the difficulty for some. It's like one side is saying no no cause of sex being involved and the other side is like ok but sex is not the totality of being with someone you love and to take it a step further let me get married so I'm at least trying the best way. I don't know it's one thing to have not found someone to love and be single. It's another to love and be told nope can't express it.
I have a hard time finding the great importance in this debate, even though I learn from debates, and enjoy watching Dr. White debate. It's hard to tell where the real meat of this question lies, and it's also hard to get past the fine distinctions being made regarding forms of desire. As long as we all agree that sodomy is sin, and nurturing the desire for sodomy is sin, then how one treats or defines the inner capacity to have those desires seems quite secondary, and overly philosophical. The way I see it as a Christian is two-fold. There is first no need to identify as a "gay" Christian any more than there is need to identify as a fornicator Christian or a violent Christian or a drunk Christian, regardless of whether we are speaking about actions or capacity for desire. However, I also do not believe that being Christian eradicates any and all aberrant desires we have. Even after some time of sanctification, a Christian may experience a wrong desire sometimes. That would include same-sex attraction, among any other. It is normal to struggle with wrong desires for years. As long one is not identifying with a sin, or practicing it, it's not apart from the born-again life that one has same-sex attraction.
I think the main point is the orientation of the heart---do we recognize the desire is sinful or "unnatural"? If we do, we are led to repentance...not pride in screwing around with language to justify yourself. I think that's one of the main take aways here--one of the oldest tricks in the book--deceitfully manipulating language; ultimately decietfully manipulating gods word. Goes back to the garden. We might see this as a foolish debate. However there us an entire generation enticed in the direction that Gregory represents--and his arguments keep them in that bandage as victims rather than bringing them to repentance as sinners. Oh the pretty lies..
@@brusopatcelts Thank you. I appreciate those insights. The language can definitely be used to make people comfortable in that evil, and sometimes it is. Certainly, the most important is to recognize that it is sin and live a life of repentance and faithfulness.
I understand most can’t choose to be gay or not but damn why would anyone choose to be Christian, especially when they’re own experience of being gay shows them first hand that the Bible labeling it as evil is ridiculous lol. Believing the Bible is true is dumber than believing in flat earth, and far more damaging. Like for real these modern day so-called ‘Christian’s’ are so so so far from the way the Bible says to behave and the things the historical Christian’s believed, it’s ridiculous, they want to eat their cake but act like there’s no sugar and other unhealthy crap in it and if you actually remove all the sugar and crap from it it’s BS to even call it “cake” at that point. At least the fundamentalist Christian’s actually are consistent and not cherry picking and trying to remove all the hatred and racist and sexist and ignorant crap from the Bible, they’ll eat there actual cake with all the sugar and crap and they will get very fat and be proud of it!! I would recommend giving up the cake altogether and eating real food, instead of either the full-on sugary Christian cake or the sugar-free ‘modern Christian’ cake that isn’t even cake at that point. But they’re both absolute crap, instead have a nice glass of vegetable juice which in this analogy would represent philosophical investigation of etymology and ontology. Sure it takes some getting used to being able to choose vegetable juice over cake, but at least you won’t be fat and lazy
This was a frustrating debate because it was never brought out clearly what the main issue was: There is no allowance made by Scripture for any romantic desire for the same sex. Therefore, it's a form of covetousness. It's a desire we're not permitted to have. Dr Coles needs to see this as a sin to mortify rather than a syndrome to be managed.
I think Cole does see it as sin to mortify and deny. Some people are left w/ struggles that other don't have, and God doesn't always deliver them from it. Becket Cook takes a somewhat different stance, in that he won't call himself a gay Christian. he rightly thinks there's no room in Christianity, no allowance in the bible for that. Becket still remains same sex attracted he admits, but is resolute to be celibate if that's how he remains. He does hope to be married and delivered, but I think it's been a good 10 yrs or so since his conversion. Unlike Becket, Cole seems to be trying to turn it into somewhat of a good thing. Maybe it's a cope, maybe it's being coy, I'm not finished the debate yet. He claims that it's sort of a gift to not be attracted to women, and that strikes me as a coy thing, but could also be a cope, since he is resigned to be how he is.
Becket rejects identity as a "Gay Christian" and sees SSA as something to be forsaken and delivered from, not something to accept and live with in singleness @@saintejeannedarc9460
He never said desire for sex with a man was allowed. All he's saying is "gay" is an accurate way to describe the temptations he experiences in contrast to most men.
@@KevinDay It's not that gay isn't a term for being same sex attracted. The problem comes w/ wanting gay Christian to be an acceptable term in churches.
The "lust" IS the sin, revealing an unregenerated heart. Lusts are unholy. No such thing as an Unholy Christian. 2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
I agree lust is a sin. But the actions are also always a sin. The sexual actions within marriage are not sinful. Homosexual actions are always sinful with no legitimate marriage. But I agree homosexual lust is sinful
@jerryyoung6494 ALL lusts are sin. You don't "lust" after your wife. Lust is of the flesh, not the Spirit. A man and his wife ARE one flesh, not two. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. You don't have "sex" with your wife, you make love to her, with dignity and honor and respect. It's NOT selfish lusts.
Cole said clearly that he doesn't lust. Your lying is Abonation! Proverbs 6:19 KJV A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
@@ManassehJones Marriage lusts are okay. Jesus said, "...that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28 NKJV) How can you have committed lusts against a woman you have a covenant relationship with? You can't commit adultery with your own wife....wife your own wife. Regardless of "sex", can you have ANY desires for your own wife? If you do, then Jesus said you committed adultery with her in your heart. But we BOTH know it's against women who are not bone of your bone, flesh of your flesh. (Genesis 2, describing marriage.) Lusts for your own spouse IS A GOOD THING! Desiring your own spouse exclusively IS A GOOD THING! Please stop making a fool of yourself, sir.
I'm an unfaithful, adulterous Christian. I'm a violent, mean-spirited Christian. I'm a divisive, conflict generating Christian. I'm a harsh, condemning Christian. I'm a lustful, porn-watching Christian. Are those legitimate identifiers for one who's been redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus? We have peace with God (Romans 5:1) but the sin battle rages inside. How could it not as we are being purified? "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; rather, it has been found difficult and left untried" - GK Chesterton
I knew of a gal who was a regular at a downtown bar who claimed to be a Christian and a prostitute . Even then in my heathen days I thought that that couldn't be . Maybe Catholic and prostitute but not Christian..
Man, the patience of Dr. White! Honing in, repeatedly asking, in one form or another, the relevant question: “is homosexual desire inherently disordered and sinful and in need of being relented of”. Only to be met constantly by Dr. Coles’s very wordy stepping back and trying to bring general sexual lust, or sexual activity as opposed to desire, into the conversational focus. I wish Dr. Coles would use fewer words and just say, “No, I don’t think it’s a good thing to try to change a person’s baked-in desires from homosexual to heterosexual.”
Really need a timer for q&a and crossfire. Coles likes to hear himself talk. Should be a 60 second answer to the specific question asked, not 3+ minutes of thinking out loud and going down every avenue of thought.
It is the format used. 20 minutes each opening statement, 10 minute each rebuttel, 15 minutes each questioning the other person(2 times), 5 minute closing statement each, then audience Q&A. I actually liked the format because the person could actually talk and you could really hear what they were saying without getting cut off by time. It is worth the 3 hours!! I popped it on while cooking - it was great!
So, how should the church deal with individuals who have a desire/lust to murder? Rape? Steal? When we understand how these should be delt with in the church, we will understand how to treat sodomy.
Is a celibate, gay Christian "serving" homosexuality? If I claim to be a white man, am I "serving" whiteness? A gay Christian who is committed to celibacy is obviously NOT SERVING his/her homosexual desires. I hope that's clear to you.
Theres a robust and, uh, intriguing converversation to be had, uh, about how it seems to me that among other things Dr. Coles, uh, sure is locquacious, and with regard to getting to the, uh, point, it appears that he tends, uh, to waste a good deal of words, and as it relates to the words which he, uh, wastes, there's an argument to be made that they were, uh, unnecessary to begin with.
I am gay... i cant change heart....well thats the belief that I strongly hold on to before..but reading the bible over and over get me to a point of understanding anything possible to change within if you let God took over your perspectives. I still had attractions to same sex but now its more like dormant, i cant get off intruding thoughts but its the prayer that really helped me to divert, and I am identifying the source of getting lustful desires around me..and over time than I am guarding my ownself paired with my relationship with God..I get used to it and now my life is way more different that Who i was before..change is not a snap its a process, its all on perspectives it all on descipline its more on mindset where God is the center.
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Your treasure is to be with the Lord. Don't ever exchange the glory of the Lord for self pleasure. Like you, everyone may face temptation in some form, but run the race, fight the good fight, for there is a crown waiting for you at the end.
@@Luvallo thank you brother for such strong motivation its been a hard journey but knowing that God is my treasure I wouldnt trade what the cross meant for my soul... He is my treasure, my first love and my peace.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you that homosexuality is not a sin. Being YOU, at your essence, is always good. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be mastered by anything. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!
1:12:00 into the video and its Excellent. Both so far have explained their point of view clearly. That changed Fast. Now Cole is Playing Word Games with Lust and Desire.
I think the tension point throughout much of this debate for me, is that someone early on needed to acknowledge the most obvious and crucial truth: Sin, regardless of when, why or where it arises, is sin - period, regardless of whether it is same-sex behavior derived from temptation, or illicit heterosexual behavior derived from temptation. Dr. White seems to give the impression that because someone struggles with a temptation to lust over the same sex-even if they resist that and remain faithful to Christ in repentance through their thought life and behavior, that until that goes away completely, there's no way they can truly have saving faith. What about the world full of former alcoholics and addicts? Does that mean that if they ever have an urge to drink or use drugs again, that because that desire surfaces from time-to-time, that something must be wrong with their Christian identity?
I think you're misunderstanding Dr White's claim. I never heard him say that until the gayness goes away that they're not saved. what I heard him say was that "and such were some of you" included both physical sins and sins of the heart, meaning that neither the physical sin of gayness, or the sins of the heart of gayness, are immutable.
@nvrprfct9176 he didn't say anything about possession, but it's possible possession might be taking place. I believe he is at least claiming there is demonic influence and oppression. While that's not explicitly confirmed in scripture, it's not denied either.
@@BornAgain223 "infest" .... "as long as the demons are within" ... since demon possession is something that only happens to those that aren't christians, he's kinda claiming that those who have homo problems aren't christians. I think you oughta have a bible verse to back up something like that.
Some people are plagued w/ same sex attraction from a very young age. I don't know why that is, but for some people, that has been their reality. It's not that I'm arguing for living a gay lifestyle, but some people have a heavier cross to bear when it comes to living a Christian life. I would not want to have this struggle. It is enough to struggle w/ getting into a Christian marriage.
@@jetrpg22 Man is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) due to the imputation of Adam's sin (Romans 5). However, no one is born gay as if it were a genetic disposition... since homosexual individuals by definition do not have heterosexual, procreative relationships, there is no way for any gay-genetic-disposition to be passed down to offspring. If homosexuality was genetic, then it would have died off after the first homosexual person failed to pass on their genes. So if someone claims to be born gay, how then are they asserting that they were born that way? Is it their assertion that God made them gay? Does God also make people murderers, rapists, and thieves?
@Dr Coles your experience means feeling, emotion, inclination, perspective, which all toward self seems weighty or more important than the Scripture. If you're in Christ and Christ is in you, the Holy Spirit indwells in you to regenerate you.
Cole wasn't saying he wants his sin. He acknowledged it is sin and that he needs to remain celibate. He seems to be resigned to that calling. He seems to want acceptance in the church for being gay though and to have that unacceptable title of gay Christian to be acceptable in the church. Which is just another trojan horse. We already got suckered as a society w/ the acceptance of gay rights. Not that gays didn't deserve equal rights under the law for many things they were denied before, but it's been a slippery slope to kids getting taught it in schools and now transitioning w/out parental consent.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 His failure is believing God is not powerful enough to change his disordered desires. He needs to give up his tight grasp on his belief that he will not have his attractions changed, or that God does not want that for him.
@@brando3342 I don't know that it's a tight grasp, it sounded like a cope to me. God can do anything. Most of the time God chooses not to and leaves us w/ our misery and afflictions.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 The point is, he’s so unwilling to actively corporate with God in the changing of his desires, that he has completely conceded that territory of his mind to the devil. Which is obviously a bad thing. If he hadn’t already given in, he wouldn’t be labeling himself “gay Christian”.
While they say that healthy debate is required to remove some cobwebs, and a sign of tolerance, the fact that this subject is even being debated is a really sad state of affairs. If "yesterday, today and forever Jesus is the same", what are we doing. Let's get Bible basìcs right first, straight from the Bible.
The problem with allowing anyone/everyone to partake of fellowship within the congregational setting is that these issue will continue to resurface. We are called to give an answer to all for the hope that we have, but this should be done outside the "Church". All the followers of Jesus are called to manifest the fruits of the Spirit in the world we live by dealing with these issues out there, not running like cowards to our pastors to deal with. False teaching always hurts the children as they think they are discovering things no one thought of before.
@@DANIELRODRIGUEZ-yr3et Absolutely, and observing how some pastors have been diluting the Word of God, unless we care enough to be aware what's written in the Bible, we can easily be misled to believe that this is what our God intends us to know and live by.
@@margareteveland4170 Margaret, totally with you. Like I said, since Jesus never changes because He is God, and He has condemned sin and has in fact reinforced OT laws, any talk of gay rights within the church is blasphemy. But Jesus loves the sinner and that is what Christians should do, but not allow any form of homoseexuality etc., to be even discussed, let alone be accepted. Homoseexuality, like permissive sex and lasciviousness within heterogeneous alignments is SIN.
Why is this even being debated....It is clear in scripture that you can NOT be a Christian and be gay.....God makes it clear where homosexuals eternity lies...
Because the debate is temptations of the flesh, ie sin. None of us are free from it while we have this flesh (who our being is free from it). Thus all of us are tempted in many ways. Some have areas they are weaker on: $$, lying, cheating, immoral attractions, etc. While we have the flesh we will all fail, its is Jesus' righteousness that frees us.
@@narindraramanankasaina2545 According to the book of Jude, God's word, homosexuality is absolutely wrong. (Jude is only 25 verses. Please read the book of Jude.)
I've known some great homosexual guys that really struggled trying to walk as a Christian, but tortured by their sexual desires. I applaud anyone who stays in the fight, and for simply doing the best they can.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you that homosexuality is not a sin. Being YOU, at your essence, is always good. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be mastered by anything. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!
The bizarre thing is that the young man admits in his opening statement why he calls himself this “gay Christian” oxymoron. It is to be accepted by other gay people. 31 min mark. Debate is over at this point. Could you imagine the ramifications of this mindset. Hi I am Jason the apathetic Christian in name, so I don’t make my apathetic friends feel bad🙃. And if the source of your sin is attraction to other gay men, why would you go to be a part of that community. For men who struggle with lust after women, no one ever then says they should go do ministry at a brothel. This was sadly, a lot of word games and rhetoric and the worst was trying to parse out a behavior from the heart disposition in 1 Cor 6:9-11. This would be like telling someone you can look but not touch, except that the sermon on the mount and the whole of Scripture says the opposite.
![OhGeesy x Lefty Gunplay - What It Iz [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L0yzW9t2ixk/mqdefault.jpg)
Debate actually starts 12:08
You're welcome
Thank you ❤ God bless!
I don't mind Chris A., the host; I got used to seeing him way back at those awesome arguments between Dr. White and Sungenis, Pacqwa, Matatics et al (on YT as 'The Great Debate, I through X')
I’m seeing this comment late 😅
How does it take 3 hours to deal with this?
Thank you for this!!! Not all heroes wear capes.
The simple fact that this is actually being debated is beyond belief.
You didn’t watch the debate lol
This is the 3rd time I have witnessed Dr. White debate this issue. On going since the 90's.
_"Beyond Belief?"_ I think not. _"And Jesus sayeth unto Thomas, doubt not but put thine finger here and believe."_
@@nuttysquirrel8816 the 'beyond belief', in this case is
- since God settled the issue of homosexuality 4500 years ago in Lev. chapters 18 and 20 , by Jesus Christ in the Gospels ,in the majority of the Pauline Letters , the letters of the Apostle Peter , the letter of Jude and John the Beloved in Revelation - there in reality should not even be a debate concerning homosexuality.
From Gen. to Revelation God has always made it known homosexuality will never be acceptable to Him.
Everything gets debated. The shape of the earth gets debated. The hypothetical results of battles between fictional superheroes get debated. The results of elections get debated. If a point of theology _isn't_ debated, that's the exception rather than the rule.
The short answer is no. The long answer is nooooooooo.
This is the funniest comment ive seen in a long tme 😂
basically 😂
Hey thats so funny! The more you spit on gay people for being who they are, and unashamed of that, the quicker your religion dies and the clearer people see it as the biggest scam and threat to society.
😂😂🤷🏾♀️🤷🏾♀️🤷🏾♀️
As a Deist I would say: why would a homosexual still want to join that man made subjective interpretation of a possible god/gods with man made moralities and rules?
Which homosexual could ever take someone for serious that still claims that homosexuality is a seduction of their devil?
I am a born again believer who has same sex attraction. I hate the lust of my flesh! And have to fight against those filthy thoughts daily. I have failed many times. But Gods word is TRUE, and i am a great sinner needing Jesus as my Great Savior.
So basically, everyone will sin one way or another. Some will just plainly condemn you as it is out of their uncharitable heart, as not all believers are given the compassion to understand the cross that some homosexual bears. It is easier to just hide and utter the word of Gospel and completely disregard the wisdom within to justify your view on those who are apparently different from you.
I think this is the struggle of many Christians in their opinions on same sex attraction. From this simple prejudice, they unknowingly caused others suffering, most gays distance themselves from God because of this. They could not see God's love from the conduct of some of the believers.
I as a gay man certainly struggle the most with the desire of the flesh, but I do my best to not give into them. Battles that, thankfully, I've won most of the time. And I had long made peace of my predilection because I am secure in knowing that God loves me no matter who I am, and what I am--a person with qualities and flaws.
@@Kim-ct5mn all fall short of the Glory of God , Christian or not
- BUT a Christian will not continue in sin , meaning we will avoid sinning ; when we sin we will be convicted of sin , repent of it , and never go back to it .
As a Christian , as long as i'm in a physical body that has a sin nature , I will be tempted to sin , and will do or say something that falls short of God's standard of behavior ; BUT I do not go out of my way to look for an opportunity to sin, and when I do screw up I Immediately go to God and confess it , repent of it , and make it point never to repeat it .
There are circumstances when a Christian will need to go through a deliverance session with Christians trained in this area to break demonic strongholds that are tormenting a Christian with sin in specific areas that carried over from a former non Christian lifestyle ..
Sinning is not a part of God's Kingdom , and He will not accept any excuses for it no matter how man wants to find a reason to condone it .
@@Kim-ct5mnUh no. Most conservative Christians accept the original comment above. It’s when for whatever sin (you pick it) is normalized as acceptable and it’s just someone’s lifestyle that they will be rebuked.
Everyone knows we will all sin. What matters is that Christians try every day and pray that sins in their life will be mortified and become less controlling, and less by thought, word, and deed.
The biblical situation is in our identity and if it's not as a slave to Christ, it's a thistle unto a thorn bush. Keep renewing your mind in the Word, through the Grace of our Lord Jesus, the Christ.
Amen, and for sure Christians shouldn't want to identify with that temptation (ie Drunkard Christian, etc) @@Psalm144.1
This is like debating if its Biblically acceptable to identify as a "Christian Murderer" or a "Christian Thief". Its just an absurdity.
Ridiculous. This is why Christian’s end up with so many pedophiles because you think it’s just another sin.
A "Christian Drunk" also can't exist
He would have to say, "murdering Christian", "gluttonous Christian", "immoral Christian", "prostitute Christian" etc... This does not work in any multiverse.
False equivalent comparisons are like bad doctrine.
A sex drive is a normal part of our Biology and brain. Because it might remind you it actually operates, through your default and innate programming, that's not sinful when you quickly decide to be sane.
We don't have an appendage made where stealing or substance abuse or killing is one its few biological functions.
A penis or vagina have limited yet obvious connections to the soul of a person.
@@jacobpursley1800 I agree with James White, but those are not compatible because they are actions and not desires. I still don't think it is okay to identify with desires which are sinful, but there is a distinction to be made.
The number of times Dr. Coles talked about his experience or another's experience was very telling. While he talked about Scripture, he seemed to value "experience' more highly. Also, if God is God, then he can redeem behavior and desires. If He can't do that, He is not a very powerful God. The old is gone, the new has come. I would not want an identifier of my old self attached to my new identity in Christ. That is holding on to the old.
When you rid of your sin then Coles might believe it possible.
I like Dr. White's style......He uses Dr. Coles' use of Greek against him.
Dr. White also use the "experience" a lot just like Dr. Coles initially have.
Yeah, his argument died the death of a 1,000 qualifications.
The picture of the newness of people in the New Covenant presented in Jeremiah and Ezekiel encompasses new desire and new behavior. Dr Coles even said it was his experience with non-believers that spurred his quest to believe the things he now teaches. He wanted to help make homosexuals realize that God still wants them, assumedly without them realizing they are in sin. In short, Dr Coles is not namely focused on the Gospel of gathering his theology from the Bible.
God redeems; however, when we are redeemed, we are free FROM sin, not free TO sin. Prior to redemption we are to repent of our sins. Repentance means to turn away from our sins, not to intentionally live in our sins. If one claims to be saved, yet uses this an an excuse to continue living in sin, where they really saved in the first place?
All Christians should never sacrifice truth for unity.
Yes, unity of false doctrine and bigotry, correct.
@@michaelchenier6377I'm glad you are willing to expose the false doctrine and bigotry of the homosexual community.
@@patricksimmons5135Your community, that is.
If you gave the effort Mr Coles allows The Spirit to, you'd be a Catholic Saint without being Catholic.
Correct, it's the truth that unites us
Clearly in the bible
I totally get the point that he’s trying to make when he refers to “American Christian “. The problem is I would never dare identify myself as an American Christian. I’m just a Christian.
So would you say that American culture has zero influence on the way you practice Christianity? Aren't American Christians simply the subset of Christians who are Americans?
@@RobertG3567 I am not just an American who happens to be Christian. I am a Christian who happens to be American. My identity is found in Christ, not in being from America. therefore, I am first a Christian and then anything else. There are many things that influence individuals Christianity. That doesn’t mean that we should put a bunch of other things in front of it and try to separate it as subsets of Christianity. I’m from Louisiana and I’m sure there are things here that influence my Christianity differently than being from California would or China or Canada. That doesn’t mean that I would call myself a Louisianan American Christian. I’m just a Christian.
I’m not saying that he can’t have his struggles. What I’m saying is that he shouldn’t identify himself and label himself as the sinful struggle/Christian. I used to be an addict and an alcoholic. Even when I was still struggling with that early on in my Christian walk 7 1/2 years ago, I would’ve never labeled myself as an addict/alcoholic Christian. But I was a Christian, who struggled with the desire for alcohol and drugs. but the good Lord has set me free. We all have struggles and inclinations that we ought not act on. But we ought not label ourselves by those. If he wants to relate to people who struggle with same-sex attraction, then instead of calling himself a gay Christian, he could say that he is a Christian, who struggles with same sex attraction but it daily being set free.
A Little Christ 😊
I think the difference is. American by definition is neutral. It's a nationality. It can include cultural and political aspects, but in its simplest form, it describes someone who is legally identified as an American citizen. Gay by its definition is a homosexual. That is not neutral. That's like calling myself an adulterer, because I wrestle against adulterous thoughts when I see attractive wives. It's a ridiculously obvious oxymoron to the identity of an adopted, co-heir of Christ, who has washed the inside of my cup, with all its sinful desires, attitudes, intentions and orientations, as well as the outside, in my actions and words.
Agreed. It is not the "American Bible" it is just the Bible. It has NO borders.
Most of us, when we turn to Christ, recognize how our sin contradicts His Word. We lay that burden down and allow Him to wash us of our sins. What I am hearing said here is "can I be saved, but hold on to this one thing". Your identity should be rooted in the Messiah rather than in your sexual desires.
I think attraction and actively being to the same sex is different
@@razoredge6130 actively being what?
@@ChristisLord2023 having sex sex with the same sex
@@3rksum I agree 👍
@@razoredge6130a person may struggle with same sex attraction. We all struggle with sin, but if that person is saved they lean on Christ to help them with that struggle. What Gregory is advocating for is being identified by their sin. We don't do that as Christians. Our identity is in Christ alone.
So if I were to have a predisposition to any other sin, like murder, am I going to refer to myself as a "killer Christian"? No he's just being subversive and wrapping it in innocent looking packaging
100%
And yet the murderer will stand judgment before god, and not you, and he may be allowed entrance into his eternal kingdom, where as you may not be. God knows you not only by your actions, but by your heart.
Your comment shows you don't understand the terminology. You can't be a killer without killing someone. You can be gay without having sex.
The main problem is that Coles is utterly incapable of objectively 'proving' the thing he claims to be. A man can prove he is a man, objectively. An Arminian cannot do so, he can only assert it. Same with a 'gay' man. He has no other basis for his claim than his gratuitous profession.
@@c.a.g.3130 are you a man who's attracted to men?
The way Dr Coles rejects his desires in order that he may be more in line with the teachings of Jesus is admirable. I’ve seen many of these debates where same sex attracted people either justify their lifestyles or refuse to admit that it is sinful. Refreshing to see someone who struggles with this dealing with it in what seems to be the biblical way.
One was really really uncomfortable and the other was very very comfortable. Hint; water bottles tell no lies.
Body language can be a revealing thing.
One of them has debated publicly almost 200 times. One of them has just debuted.
I would chock much of that up to nerves, if I’m being honest. He could have been a little less manic, but it wasn’t bad overall. I don’t agree with him though, and I think he is a dangerous person who needs to be strictly denounced, and his poisonous theology attacked. Good job, James 👍
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus, to the church of U.S.A…I don’t know where to start…”
The fake apostle Paul never met nor knew Jesus
Excellent debate. Thank you to all involved. It is good and healthy to listen in as these things are thought through biblically. What I took away is we are always to be in pursuit of desires that align with our God and Creator. Christ is Lord.
Do you find it good and healthy to think things through with logic and empirical evidence? Or just biblically?
@@joelrivardguitarif you're going to speak on empirical evidence will you also include statistical data from the CDC regarding alternative lifestyles such as the type that are being discussed in this debate? Will you include data from the Roman Catholic Church and the controversy regarding
priests engaging in alternative lifestyle practices with minors? How about the cultural practices by the ancient Roman, Greek, and Indian empires that specifically targeted male minors?
Why empirical? @@joelrivardguitar
For me, it wasn't excellent at all.
Dr. Coles did not use Biblical argumentation in his debate. Rather, he points to his experience and seems to also point out that a person grows up gay and seems to infer that this is natural. Although that is also incorrect thinking and is for another topic for a debate, there was not any Biblical scriptures to back this view that Gay Christianity is Christianity. He then uses some Greek words and brings up Celibacy as a form of Gayness. (which is not actually the same, as Dr. White corrects him later).
That is why Dr. White uses in his initial argumentation emphasize on "experience" in his reasoning and the use of Greek words to counter Dr. Coles' reasoning.
As I listen more to Dr. Coles, it felt like listening to an addict trying to argue that Cannabis and drugs are good for people. I just felt sorry for him.
This is God's view about this:
Romans 1:24 - 32
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.
@@deusx.machinaanime.3072 Why would it not be natural? What evidence demonstrates that?
The Bible also speaks of being femininity men are not to be feminine, but to be men. I agree all sexual perversion is sin, but to excuse sexual sin by saying everyone struggles is rather silly. I can not stand it when people think they are being smart say "oh Hitler was a Christian, he said he was!" That is stupid, to think one can be in direct violation of the word of God and be Christian is to be no Christian at all, there for by their fruits you will know them. Would anyone be ok with a Christian pedophile? Come now, think about it. Our culture is so over sexualized it is ridiculous, a Christians identity is in Christ not his/her (only two) sexualiy.
Praise the Lord God brother you are telling it like it is !!
What does the Austrian painter have to do with anything here? Also, watch Europa The Last Battle. Now.
@@mushihimesarna728??
Oh, you are so utterly lost. You are a poor excuse for piety.
Those who flaunt piety are the furthest from it.
I am soooooo glad that there's a Christian that doesn't struggle with sin !!!! You make God a liar and you're a legalist. Have you not read 1st John ?
The sign or fruit is that the person has a life of daily conviction and repentance. Some people won't be free from a particular sin until glory.
Your pride for example...
There is absolutely no universe in which homosexuality can be reconciled with biblical christianity. Never and under no circumstances.
There is no 3rd way on this issue. We must call an abomination for what it is.
There is absolutely no universe in which adultery can be reconciled with biblical christianity. Never and under no circumstances.
So if you've ever been tempted that way, then you're an abomination.
If you think this isn't parallel, you didn't hear Dr. Coles's position. No one here is arguing that homosexual practice or lust is good.
@@KevinDayhomicidal Christian, drunk Christian’s etc don’t exist. Gay Christian doesn’t either.
@@KevinDay but did you hear Dr. White's argument regarding the parallel between covetousness and homosexuality? The point is not that being tempted to commit adultery is a sin, but identifying with the temptation and calling it uncontrollable is. On top of that, Paul describes homosexuality as contrary to nature, so it is a step beyond adultery in that sense.
I see your point, but if someone loves Christ they should be disgusted with their temptations and through the Spirit attempt to be rid of them, and saying it is impossible to rid yourself of constant temptations to sin is denying the power of the Spirit to continually sanctify your heart and mind.
@@first3numbers I agree, no one should say it's impossible, but saying people have to refuse to admit they continue to struggle with a particular sin is as bad as hyper-charismatic preachers telling people to refuse to admit they have an illness or disability. Faith isn't about denying reality.
So if in a particular context, "gay" would be understood to be an unchangeable, fundamental aspect of one's being, then I agree it would be a terrible idea to use it.
But if it simply refers to the fact that someone is generally able to be tempted by people of the same sex rather than the opposite, then it's not saying that Christ is unable to change them any more than saying I'm "just a sinner saved by Grace," is saying that God is unable to change me.
@@KevinDay Why would you need such a label? Just say you struggle with the desire, you don't need to refer to yourself as "gay" for the sake of brevity.
Dr. Coles, denied "disordered desires" but called it as "capacities of attraction." Since Coles sees it as capacities of attraction, that's his reason not to repent of it. Those desires/temptations that Coles describes them as, were not clearly demonstrated as sinful by White since he did not press Coles when he redefined it as capacities of attraction. It's unfortunate because White had his best statement at 2:00:00 but did not finish that argument. One thing for sure is Dr. Coles likes to drink a lot of water. James could have shown that part of being a Christian is being a new creature, which entails a new way of thinking which is more ordered as Christ's glory is seen (Col 3:1). James could have tied the gospel into the debate.
Brilliant-- I noticed this as well. The definitions were the true matter of contention. Coles does not recognize his active, intentional and identity-spurring sin as disordered, and worthy of repentance and deliverance, but rather an attraction the should be channeled elsewhere, as useful potential & "capacity".
I saw so many opportunities for the Gospel to shine!!!! A shame.
You will not rid of disordered desires as long as you are on planet earth or milky way galaxy. Be cautious as Coles.
Galatians 6:1 NKJV
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
@@michaelchenier6377 You don't get rid of sinful desires, you repent of them.
@@patricklacson Wrong.
Repent is to acknowledge God's way and "think differently or change one's mind"... Strongs and Thayer say that.
Repent IS NOT OUTWARD PERFECTION.
Coles is ridding of any possible temptation by repenting. Not in your misinformed manner.
Paul did not cease to have his thorn.
Like Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16, lyou would have insulted Paul for his continued thorn and identifying himself as "chef of sinners."
Thanks for hosting a debate on this topic. Interesting stuff!
This topic only makes sense if people also think that "fornicating Christian", "minor attracted Christian", "stealing attracted Christian" seems normal... 🙄
🙄 Being gay is NOT in a person's control! Stealing and fornication are.
Is there a word for a virgin fornicator?
There IS a word for a person who has same sex attraction but hasn't..."gay".
If not what word do you use to describe a person who is same sex attracted?
If you say "homo" "F*g" or "pervert" or some other "put down"; be advised you are saying it is OK to be a "F** Christian " which would destroy your own point....
@@waynepoint Aah here we come at the crux of the problem. You assume that the proclivity of the flesh to be tempted in one area should be treated different than in another area. FYI temptation of the flesh is in no one's control! We just all have weaknesses in different area's as fallen man. This goes for the pedophile as much as the same sex attracted and yes also people struggling with extreme anger, pride, greed etc.
Whether a person has "merely" sinned in their heart or in deed is irrelevant. The point remains...we do not identify ourselves with our struggles or fleshly temptations, habits or weaknesses. So why should we do this in particular with same sex attraction?
The same God that can sanctify the insecure wifebeater with anger issues broken by their past, or the (yes) 'virgin fornicator' with the porn addiction, can sanctify the Christian dealing with same sex attraction. Whether that means taking that same sex attraction away, Wether it means exercising the fruit of the spirit; self control despite the feelings and be satisfied in Christ, Wether it means developing natural attraction for the opposite sex. (all of which are scenario's that happen).
The point is we find our identity in Christ and who God says that we are. Not our fleshly shortcomings.
So hoe a Christian should approach it:
*I AM NOT MY (INCLINATION TO) SIN. I AM A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST BEING SANCTIFIED DAILY, DESPITE MY FLESHLY SHORTCOMINGS, TEMPTATIONS AND HABITS. THE LATTER ARE WHERE I FALL, NOT WHO I AM (IN CHRIST).*
Hope with this you understand my initial comment better.
@@waynepoint
Homosexuality is in a persons control, in the sense they choose to engage in that depravity.. it’s obvious that the scripture is not your authority. And that is the difference in our belief about this subject
@@shanevan1very well said. 💯
@@eagleclaw1179He's talking about ppl who have an attraction to others of the same sex but live celibate. The person debating James White goes further saying it also is a sin just to lust after another man in ones head and heart. How exactly is that engaging in depravity?
By saying ppl with same sex attraction are an abomination even if they live celibate and chaste in mind and body is wicked. You are making burdens too great to bear and not lifting a finger to help bear the load.
Hate is murder
I really appreciate the respect shown from both gentlemen.
are u in the video?
@@chazrussell6391 negative
Was blessed to be there!
What was the vibe of the crowd like? Overwhelmingly in favor of doctor White I imagine
@@roguecalvinist It was part of the Future of Christendom 2023 conference, so yes the crowd was overwhelmingly in White's favor.
Only in 2023 would this even be a debate. 🙄
And in America.
Times haven't changed since the apostle Paul wrote to the Roman Empire
God made us in his image. Does that mean he is gay? Does that mean he cheats?
@@typefinn Homo heidelbergensis was the inventor of religion.
So god created us as homo heidelbergensis in his image, then we evolved to homo sapiens, and now we humans look more advanced than god. Nice Christian fiction.
This was good, but wished there was more discussion around chosen identity, rather than temptation. Yes, we have temptations but for a Christian is it inappropriate to take on the identity of our temptations.
I believe identity is a human concept. God's law consider sins regardless of identity. Homosexual espousing their sexuality is but another example to the sin of Pride, just as there are some proudful Christians. It is not exclusive to the gays but it is certainly not painting them in a good light.
100%. In my humble opinion, it didn't appear that Dr. Coles was repentant of his SSA. To wish to identify with a group that performs activities that are so clear to be an abomination to our Lord is incredible brash.
@@Kim-ct5mn I still think that homosexuality is a very bad sin for God to destroy 2 cities Sodom&Gomorrah as a reminder of how much He hates it.
Not sure about this one. In our weaknesses we are made strong. Our testimony is a great witness to be proclaimed. Our testimonies often consist in God overcoming our temptations and weaknesses, or turning those into strengths.
@@holygeneration7I still think telling someone being gay is a sin makes you a sinful one.
What a refreshing debate. Thanks, Dr. Coles for not being a shrill, harpy alphabet warrior. We pray that God brings deliverance to your heart and mind and that you’ll accept it with gladness.
the word repentance comes from the greek Metanoia which means to "change your mind"
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Yes, and to change your mind is to change your actions. Faith without works is dead. All those who practice sin cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
@@holygeneration7good thing its God who gives us faith as a gift, and not our repenting that saves us. Repenting is a result of salvation not the cause of it.
@@holygeneration7
Faith is given by God.
Faith always results in works.
“Faith without works is dead” does not mean that you have to prove you have faith. It means if you have faith then you will have works because the result of having faith is that it demonstrates fruits.
Repentance also is a result of God working in a person and not a result of a person “choosing” to change.
The scriptures is clear that a person is born in bondage to sin, just as Jesus said, “he who sins is a slave of sin”. A person cannot just choose one day to stop sinning because they are controlled by it.
It is only until God makes a person alive that they change.
Go ahead and read Ephesians 2:1-12
Romans 6
Romans 5
Colossians 2
@@eagleclaw1179 Wonderful explanation of faith and works, i commented on the same Scripture recently. The so-called churches do not teach repentance nor good works after being saved. Ive read recently more than one Scripture that says God judges us by our deeds. thanks bro !
Be transformed by the renewing of your minds, gird up the loins of your mind.
@@HaroldZwingley Scripture and bible version please?
I respect Dr. Coles dedication to maintain Christian values while dealing with wat he does. Must mot be easy.
I really do, too. I disagree with him a 1000%. But I echo your sentiment.
would you respect his dedication if he was trying to defend Christian murder
@@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx Well, I don't take the other poster as respecting Cole's position on Side B (I sure don't), but rather his celibacy in light of his attraction. I do think his position is dangerous and simply feeds certain temptations related to so called "gay identity," but his celibacy is admirable as far as that goes.
@@Henry._Jones I have been doing semen retention for almost a year now, and yes it's tough the first month, but it becomes like all things, a habit and easy to do. nevertheless, sin is sin, and we all should strive for perfection
He’s saying he’s gay because he still has the attraction. He’s not defending it as in saying it’s ok or its right, which is why he’s celibate.
Galatians 6:1 NIV
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
The bible is a man-made book with man-made wisdom (Kain and Abel) and man-made errors :
+ light wasn't there before the sun
+ the Earth wasn't there before the sun
+ Adam and Eve didn't exist
+ insects have six legs not four legs
+ homosexuality is not a seduction by a satan, but a natural born healthy sexual orientation with an evolutionary meaning
+ the "firmament" is not a solid "roof" over the world
+ the sun can’t be stopped for having longer light in a battle, it already stands still
+ etc etc
If the bible would be the word of god or inspired by god it would be without errors, but it isn't.
I would say the Bible is not in its original form anymore- it surely has been corrupted. Regardless, the concept of salvation in Christianity doesn't make sense at all- like God becoming human and then dying for your sins and I am not gonna even talk about Trinity, which is another BS.
This whole thing is wrong. You do not debate GOD, or THE PLAN OF SALVATION, or The example God's son Jesus set for us, or ULTIMATE SACRIFICE TO FULFILL THE PLAN OF SALVATION.
God has and always will love all his children. But God does not and will not ever love the sins we commit. No one is born gay. The life choices of being in a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex, or someone outside of marriage or with someone you are not married to is and always will be a sin and there is no debate that is ever going to change that because these are not human laws, these are God's laws. END OF SUBJECT.
I think this was great because James drew out the issue clearly and the line in the sand was clear. It was a win for him of course, though I think Greg did fine. He had to know he wasn't going to win a debate against the most prolific debater of our age, but he was well spoken and didn't try to hijack the subject matter or derail it. We should never adjectivally modify "Christian" with any desire or attraction that we need to repeatedly repent of. Wonderful debate. Fun to watch.
One can not repent of temptation, they can only repent of sins. Otherwise Jesus would have needed to repent: “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15 KJV
I would agree though that a person with SSA should wish that they didn’t have it.
@@bman5257 true we do not need to repent of temptation, but we do need to repent of sinful desire
@@jokinghazard4022 including reoccurring sinful desire. Any aspect of our lives contrary to God's will should be forsaken entirely
@@bman5257there is a tangible difference between temptation and desire. I believe that is where the line should be drawn.
One of the most frustrating things about debates is that there are always so many words but so little is actually said.
you weren't listening
@@ronburgundy2738 I listened to the whole thing except for 5 minutes. Basically, to sum up the whole thing, Dr. Cole believes his homosexual desires shouldn't be repented of because its beneficial not to have to desire women and Dr. White believes they should be repented of because homosexual desires are against nature. The end.
Of course, I agree with Dr. White on this because I think his perspective is literally drawn right out of scripture.
😂😇🙏😇@@ronburgundy2738
@@War-DaddyColes doesn't entertain his leanings yet you do entertain being an untruthful jerk.
He has more trustable character than you.
Actually, much is said. You just need to exert your mind and pay attention.
Thank you so much Dr. White for always defending the Gospel and the Reformed Faith!
Have you considered just using the gospel?
@@bobbuilder5123No, because the gospel isnt enough for Reformers. You also have to be annoying
It is wonderful to hear such debate on contemporay Gay debate.Both the debators showed great respect for one another. Because I cannot think of having such debate in Pakistan.
This is so boring. Homosexuality is a sin, the bible says so. If you don't believe in the Bible, you're not a Christian. If you believe homosexuality is not a sin, you're not a Christian, you're deceived. There is no confusion here. Satan is the author of confusion.
The Bible says, man shall not lie with man. Can't be any clearer than that!!!!!
If you paid attention you would know that Gregory Coles agrees with that statement
Respect to the speakers for sharing honestly, but this debate was a pure display of how desperately the church needs Christ’s guidance in these areas. He promised that He would not leave us as orphans so I trust that in due time we’ll receive revelation. He is faithful!
What do you mean by receive revelation?
@@clayton4917 I'm trusting the Spirit to continue to reveal Christ more fully to His church.
We have His revelation in His word.
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Keyword, complete. We have all we need in the word. Waiting for new revelation is how you end up with Mormonism or JWs. God's word is complete, and it's enough for us to do every good work.
@@MansterBear I appreciate your thoughts. However, revelation by definition refers to the disclosure of unknown facts and realities. The truth, unlit the day of our Lord, is that we know only in part. Scripture does NOT bring anyone into full knowledge of anything. It does lead and instruct you in relationship with the One who can and will. We must continue to remain in Him, waiting for His Word and His return. It is not my grasp of the scriptures that keep me nor is it my ability to earnestly wait on His coming that keeps me. It is the seal of the Holy Spirit. In Him, there is no fear of false doctrine of any kind.
It starts at 12:10.
👍
It actually starts at 31:13. 😉
@@soullessmeatpuppet7840 😂😂😂😂
You’re a hero
Thanks
I appreciate the kindness these 2 debaters show towards each other. How calm and composed they stay. Very civilized!
I think a follow-up debate with Rosaria Butterfield as the participant opposite Dr. Coles would be really valuable.
Amen! That would be awesome!
Revoice and it’s constituents can’t stand her. That’d be a cold 🥶 day you know where
I thought that exact thing!
My exact thought as well. Especially given that Rosario was also an English professor and may have the same training in thinking that Dr Cole has. I think she will better appreciate Dr. Cole's thought process and the dilemma he feels. I think this debate was very good, but I think Dr. White is short on compassion and grace in his delivery.
@@rebalspirit Isn't "rebuking with God's truth" the absolute ~most~ compassionate thing he--or anyone else--could do?! If anything Dr. White was the only one dispensing actual Compassion....writ large.
I simply cannot listen to this guy defend his gayness. Because it's all personal. It's all about him him him, and his virtuous in his lack of lust for women. It's astounding the lack of self-awareness of his own vanity.
Your comment is very uncharitable to what Gregory Coles actually believes. It makes me think you didn’t really listen to the debate and what each side was arguing
God bless you Dr. White, I’m not a Calvinist by any stretch but this man is a warrior standing fast on God’s Word, in how it’s applied in this conversation. My discernment is telling me that the “pro” argument held by the other guy here is a Trojan horse, to slowly allow the terms Gay into the church body, and incrementally, as the enemy typically does, let in the rest of the LGB… lifestyle. I’m cannot happen. Stand on biblical truth my brothers and sisters. We love our neighbors enough to tell them the truth, as Dr. White does here. God bless you all
The only enemy is YOU.
Amen, obkook7205. I'm not a Calvinist (at least not a hyper calvinist) nor could I ever be convinced to be one after having read the Scriptures, but I still look up to James White in the faith. He has gone up to bat for true followers of Christ on many occasions, and I really enjoy listening to him.
@@bennylane9701 Not The Devil?
Reading some of the comments made me wonder who actually watched the debate. Dr. White's strongest point was to say that same-sex attraction was indicative of disordered desire, but he did not adequately answers Coles' contention that in order to be consistent, you would have to affirm that opposite sex attraction for a married person to be attracted to someone else aside from one's spouse would also be a disordered desire. Coles differentiation between sins both internal (lust) and external (same-sex relations) and the capacity to sin was a very helpful one which Dr. White rejected. White does not accept the category of sexual orientation because it is not in the Bible, but Coles' point is that the Apostle Paul simply did not have that category available to him in his first century context, but that does not mean that the concept is not valid. Should we reject the idea of quantum mechanics because the Bible has no conceptual category for it? White wants to argue that the mention of "greedy" 1 Corinthians 6:9 is an inward disposition which is not necessarily acted upon, but this does not line up with the context of the passage, an argument that Coles missed the opportunity to refute. 1 Corinthians 6:9 speaks of fully acted out, unrepentant sin, in Paul's responding to activity in Corinth where believers were taking one another to secular/pagan law courts, which was an acted out external action, something more associated with unrepentant sexual sin as opposed to inward lust. White never fully answered Coles' exegesis of Romans 1:26ff that the sin of same-sex lust is an illustration that points to the depravity of humanity more generally. Instead, White wanted to make the message of 1 Corinthians 6:9 the same as Romans 1:26ff, which is not the case, as Coles pointed out. Much of the debate comes down to how the Scripture uses the term epithumia for "desire", which in some contexts implies sin and in other contexts does not.
Gregs main points ..... i have & continue to repent of lust. However being a Matt 19:11-12 eunic as fearfully & eonderfully made with a purpose is not a sinful condition. He is using the terms of the gay culture to communicate to them a message opposite the message of the Evangelical Church ...... your are reprobates, abominations disordered persons ...... Greg is working to commumicate with a group the church has written off.
@clarkemorledge2398 Since you brought it up(!): no; the reason to deny the "idea of quantum mechanics" is ~not~ "because the Bible has no conceptual category for it", as you posit (for your would-be Example). The proper reason to Deny that Idea is that God's word (not to mention the actual Laws of Physics!) refutes the foundations and tenets, as well as the ever-changing Details of 'outer space-ism' pre-emptively. So there's that.....
@@perrylkent The Church hasn't "written them off"; where'd you get that idea?! They have the same "...and such were some of you" Offer of repentance and Salvation as everybody else has. You're not being "written off" just because you don't get a special "you don't have to repent of ~that~ abomination(!), just everything ~except~ that" clause. What hubris; what PRIDE......
Why would anyone reject quantum mechanics? 🤔
Agreed that a large percentage of comments show a lack of understanding what the debate was even about and many of them don’t even understand Gregory’s position
Despite all of the comments, I was very impressed with both sides of the debate who made thorough thought-out arguments. One of the better Christian debates I have watched
I love listening to James White debate. I could listen all day. And I have to admit, I started this debate expected that I wouldn’t like this other guy at all. I usually find people on that side of the debate on this topic and related topics to be insufferable (although Dr. White’s most insufferable opponent I’ve heard so far was a Catholic apologist). But this man was great to listen to! While I don’t agree with him, he was a great debater, he was very well spoken, he was knowledgeable, he came prepared, and he explained his views very well and very clearly. This was very enjoyable to listen to, with none of the tension that I generally feel during a debate. I will say that I believe this man’s views of being a gay Christian are not the norm among those who are proponents of this language.
Is it better if he says that's he's a celibate Christian? Either way ,don't this acknowledgement simply give glory to God who keeps him ? I mean being a gay Christian doesn't attract people to be with u as a partner .if anything, it's like a shield
It sounds like this gentleman is embracing his homosexuality rather than allowing God through His word and His Church to heal him. If I had this attitude I would have never been delivered from my fornication and addiction to pornography and drugs addiction. Somethings God delivered immediately, but some took time but all the time me acknowledging my sin and hate for it and crying out for deliverance… His attitude is as embracing his femininity. Today, when I have met men and women who are addicted to porn you can see it in their eyes. They almost have a seductive demeanor. This man denies the Power of God… Is not our hope as we spend time with God to be daily delivered from whatever sin? He needs to be asked if he wants freedom from this sin.
thank you brother that is wisdom for sure !
Brethren in Christ, is this us greeting each other with a holy kiss and the peace of Christ?
We work out our salvation alone with God through the free gift of the Paraclete to convict us of ours and the world’s sin.
If God has turned this person’s face to Him and said , “Follow me “ then who are we to undo the work of God?
Those whom He chooses are on the Highway to Holiness, detailed in Isaiah 35: 8-10. Some are further in God’s knowledge than others, but let us encourage other children of God.
God said, “be Holy, as I am Holy” This was not a commandment, but a promise to us. His word shall not return void. Our loving Father is completing His work in us, if left unto us, we would fail. When the Christ returns, “we shall be like Him” 1 John 3 1-3. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith.
Hallelujah. May He bless you and keep you. May His face and His grace shine upon you.😃
@@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (We are to become more like Christ daily.. Christ finished the work now we walk in it… for someone to say we don’t have do nothing would mean our faith is dead… Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. An American gospel will tell you you do not have to repent simply believe. But the gospel tells us to believe and repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” when I heard the gospel, I took my sin very serious. I was convicted to the heart I did not look for a way to continue in my sin.
@@believer8793 Child of God. Trust that God can do what He says He will do. Every knee shall bow to our Almighty God and King.
There are even “fools” on God’s Highway of Holiness. Isaiah 35: 8.
God decides in His infinite wisdom whom He will bring to Him and our insignificant flesh minds cannot understand the mind of God. He is the Potter and we are His clay.
However, you have seen our Sovereign Father’s goodness to all. In His mercy, He sent His willing Son to deliver us all from our flesh sin by His sacrifice for us. The free gift of Holy Spirit, sent from Jesus towards us, our Helper, our Comforter gives us all remembrance of Jesus and guides us minute by minute to be more Christ-like. He gives us a flesh heart instead of a stone one, we have His law written on our hearts.
God and Jesus come to us and tabernacle with us and we are filled with the living waters that are visible to others as fruits of the Spirit. I.e.Love, kindness, tolerance, patience. He is refining us like silver, through fire, where impurity and dross is burned away. It’s an ongoing forward
process, with many boulders in the way.
I am not American and indeed you are correct when you say we are to believe and repent. The love of God is in you, trust His plan for all of mankind. His work on the cross for us continues each and every minute of the day, until He returns. Be not troubled and rest in His assurances. The eternal peace and love that is Christ be with you forever. Hallelujah and Glory alone to the Father.🙂
You are still a drug addict though. That's the point
A good thing to remember that the most simple explanation is most often the correct one. The fact that this kid has to set up every one of his answers by redefining almost every word he uses before he uses it shows me that he is severely struggling to defend his point which means that he knows his argument is weak and he knows in his heart he's wrong he just would rather do this than wrestle with his own sinfulness and repent for something he feels he shouldn't have to repent for and that's sad first off but secondly it's deadly for him because I am not sure if Jesus accepts him as a child of his when he is defying God on one of only two sins he calls abominations in our text. Good luck to him I wouldn't want to risk my salvation to defend an idea that he and most gay people know they cannot really defend if truthful with themselves.
It doesn’t matter whether you struggle with same sex attraction or not. As a believer, you still don’t identify as gay. Why would you identify with sin? I really don’t understand this argument.
Jesus said not to pray in public, so you can’t identify as a prayerful Christian.
It is not about identifying with sin, it is more about being truthful to oneself and others by recognizing one's flaw. "Gay" Christian will know his struggle with his flaw and avoid sinning. Besides no one likes to be called their entire existence as sinful.
@@Kim-ct5mn it is about identifying with sin - 100%
@@RockyTop85 In the end, we all have our own opinion. What God makes of it, we will know when our time comes.
@@Kim-ct5mn what I’m stating is not an opinion. Even as believers, we all have struggles we could easily identify with, but we don’t do that. We are called to identify as new creations in Christ and to be transformed by the renewal of our minds in Christ Jesus. Not walking around saying we are same-sex attracted or drug addicts.
I think when we claim a certain title, it tells a lot about the heart condition. Also, not only claiming the title, but to be associated with a group that's name is associated with "pride," which the Bible states are the children of the Leviathan’s. I am an ex addict and I've never claimed to be an addict. I am a child of God who has struggled with addiction. But i also understand His struggle, but it has to be a struggle and not a title that you claim. It's the celebration of the sin that is harmful ❤
The practice of the sin is harmful as well
@JesusistheonetrueGod true, and so are merely the thoughts, so you can cut it off at the root.
@JesusistheonetrueGod but also, if you are born again and baptized in repentance, you are walking in Jesus's righteousness and not your own, but you're continually working on yourself through His righteousness and Spirit. If you are fighting the sin nature, you no longer have a sin nature and are not sinning.
1timothy:
15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 15 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”-and I am the worst of them all.
@@sarahbethlauritzen5105 My sister, I'm afraid it's easier for you than for me. After all, there are more women walking around almost butterball naked than there are men. That is not to say that I believe we shouldn't have clear thoughts, but the ladies certainly aren't trying to make it easy for us.
It is a very nuanced debate, at times centering on the understanding of words, in the end I think both debaters are very close, its just that Dr. Coles has to let go of that last nugget of his old self he is clinging to and fight sinful orientations/desires/lusts with the rest of us, until we meet the Lord in glory.
Dr. Coles seems to be a confused man, on the one hand he agrees with 99% of what Dr. White says; yet he wishes to hold to the a tiny technicality on the distinction between orientation, desire and lust to find a copout and not have to FULLY pursue sanctification all the way to the root level.
He does himself a disservice by constantly comparing to heterosexuality, because anyone will agree that the desire for sex can be fulfilled in sanctity trough marriage, whereas the unnatural part of the homosexual orientation is that it has no sanctified creation ordinance expression (ironically, he knows this and that's why he has chosen celibacy; which leads up to question again, why make your sinful/unnatural orientation part of your personal identity and qualify our christianness with sin?)
I'm very thankful for both men and their preparation, as it has given me tools to better think this issues and be prepared to give answer to people struggling with similar situations.
A breathe of fresh air ! A real level headed debate ! A very rare event ! Thank you Dr.White for standing on sola Scriptura , Truth will set you free !
Yeah, I refute White on Romans 1, so there's that.
An area in this debate that I think could've been discussed more, is the definition of "Gay Christian." Dr. White seemed content to agree with the term that it meant 'someone who has a general attraction to someone of the same sex.' I would've liked Dr. White to ask Dr. Coles about the other, more explicit areas of a gay lifestyle. Ex: for someone who does these things, are they considered "Gay?" The obvious answer is 'yes,' and because being Gay is much more (and worse) than just simply being attracted to the same sex, but includes acts that are an abomination, then it's clear that there cannot be a Gay Christian.
The truth.
Great point! It's NOT just about sex with someone of the same sex! It involves so much more than that.Let alone the perverted things that gay couples do in the bedroom! That in itself is a discussion! Smh..
@@eddiejones5702 Not a discusion, but disgusting !
What about Dr Coles position that is hard to understand?
Bringing up a "gay lifestyle" would be wholly irrelevant. (White did bring it up, btw)
Take two college freshmen.. both virgins..neither dating...same classes hobbies and group of friends..everything c9ncerning how they live day to day (lifestyle) the same.
But one is gay the other straight. The ONLY difference is in their head. When they jerk off one withh be thinking of a cheerleader the other the football QB.
I know when it comes to debates, that you don’t necessarily waste time on something that isn’t essential to the debate.. White is using his opponents term “gay Christian”, obviously you would have a problem with it, but don’t confuse it with white actually accepting that there are “gay Christians”, because anyone who know white’s materials knows that he doesn’t believe that. It’s just for the debate that’s all
Wow. Dr. White is definitely one of the greatest debaters of this age.
Anyone who can read the bible with any sense at all would know the following:
A. Having a same sex attraction is not a sin. It's a temptation.
B. Lusting after someone of the same sex is a sin. Same for lusting after the opposite sex.
C. Having sex with the same sex is a sin.
Can you have "gay Christians"? Absolutely.
Can you have "practicing gay Christians"? Not so simple.
God doesn't rank sins, because they are all breaking his commandments. If you're guilty of one, you're guilty of all. The point to a Christian's life is to develop and grow to be more and more Christ-like, which means to sin less and less as your walk goes on. You can't pick and choose which commandments you want to follow.
If you steal and never plan to stop or don't try to stop... you'd certainly have to ask yourself if you're actually a Christian.
If you have homosexual sex and never plan to stop or don't try to stop... you'd certainly have to ask yourself if you're actually a Christian.
You are welcome to spin the scriptures any way you wish, but that doesn't change the truth... it only makes you feel better.
if i took a shot of whiskey every time he took a gulp of water, i'd wake up in an Old West saloon with Doc & Marty
I’ll make this three hour discussion simple:
If you mean one who struggles against something they know to be a sin, yes. If you mean someone who accepts their sin and indulges in it, no.
You should never identify yourself by a sin you are tempted with.
@@IronFire116church people do it all the time as being Alcoholics. Communion must be grape juice for wine might set them back to the addiction.
@@michaelchenier6377 Two wrongs don't make a right.
@michaelchenier6377 u said church people...100% agreed....u know why...because all modern-day apostate denominational Christianity aka churchianity led by HIRELINGS aka pastors especially 501c3 tax exempt buildings aka churches are corporations and businesses that are false teachers....
@@IronFire116That catch phrase isn't an answer applicable to reality.
Mr Cole is not raping people or even strangers.
Mr Cole is not having anal sex in a pagan temple to please a fertility god with obedience in passion. Romans 1 v23,26 specifies this this yet false doctrine ignores these details with a blanket.
Mr Cole is not abusing another with anal sex.
* Every scripture used to condemn gays is either abuse, pagan, or a responsibility free sex orifice practiced by heterosexuals.
To us simpletons:
If a child can be born from a male and male or female and female, there would be a lesson to be learned for Dr. Coles in this “debate.” But, since simple is still complicated in today’s terms, thank you Dr. James White for your faithfulness to Truth. Praise be to God. Christ is King 🙏🏾
You're indeed simple-minded. Take care of the big log that's blinding you!
That's stupid to even mention. I can see more and more why God is going burn the whole mess up.
@@mountuplikeaneaglehow so?
@@daodejing81
Calling out an abominable sin is a sin? 🤷🏽♂️
@@josiahpulemau6214 How so what??
That Gregory doesn’t look upon his fellow “gays” and see them as sinners in need of repentance speaks volumes.
no kidding
Is that what he said? He doesn't look upon them as in need of repentance? Are you talking about unsaved gay friends of his, or "gay christian" friends of his? Just want clarity. Thanks.
@@eddiejones5702 Gay christian is not in God's vocabulary, nor a Gay Christian in His Kingdom
@@eddiejones5702 - no, he didn’t say this specifically about friends or the “gay community “ (which he still seems to be a part of), but, his lack of concern over their souls/that they are still in sin, I thought, was revealing … it was what he didn’t say
@@berenlevia8486 Amen! Totally agree!
A Christian isn’t “someone seeking to live in obedience to Jesus”. A Christian is someone who’s been born of His spirit and washed in His blood. Now, being born of His spirit and washed in His blood will absolutely result in said person seeking to live in obedience to Jesus.
What kind of Christianity is it where this kind of discussion is even entertained.
Seems like Dr. Coles is attempting to use the term "Gay Christian" as a way to describe his personal experience and as a rhetorical way of approaching and evangelizing potential homosexual converts. The problem is his experience is exceedingly rare as he pointed out so almost no one can relate to it and also that term is very confusing term for all involved. "Gay" is antithetical to traditional Christian orthodoxy and "Christian" is antithetical to the homosexual way of life. Words matter and doctrine matters. The Gospel converts people not rhetorical devices. He says he's a theological nut but The desire to use such an unbiblical term indicates a lack of theological understanding hence his lack of focus on the seriousness of mental sanctification. (How we think, what we say)
Great points there. Words do matter and gay and Christian are very at odds. I also see the term gay Christian like a trojan horse. it's like the slippery slope that started gay rights, and look where we are now. Near half the churches are infiltrated and some are taken over by it. This will just finish the conservative churches if they fall for it.
Im doing the same ...... I play for a gay rugby team. Columbus Kodiaks. I am trying to use non Evangelical language simply because the evangelical church has spent so much energy calling the gay community reprobates,faggots, abominations & disordered persons they cannot hear the "gospel" as good news anymore.
you and people like you are the reason people with this experience are damned to experience the “homosexual way of life” forever.
no grace. no tact. just judgement.
We have someone here on stage portraying himself to be in the same category as Paul. Projecting himself as a celibate Saint worthy to be admired, the eunuch. Someone so in touch with Jesus and knowledgeable of His word that he can debate openly about his convictions (even if the category of sin he is defending flies in the face of God’s word). And then he wants to attach the word ‘gay’ to those convictions and normalize them to the degree that others will accept them as a new category of Christian.
And then we have all the ridiculous comments in this thread about how wonderful he is for remaining celibate. What a horrible struggle he must be enduring. And ‘don’t we all struggle with sin, after all?’ Applauding his self-deception thinking themselves to be of high moral character and ‘loving’ for doing so.
If this young man were to pass from this life to the next tomorrow, he would meet the God who created Him and stand before His judge. All the lies and deception will dissolve instantly. He makes a mockery of God’s word and God’s will for humanity, excusing away this sinful condition as some sort of dysfunctional malady or defect of creation only he has the capacity to understand. As if his experience rises above God’s design. There is no shame or remorse for teaching others to do the same. He has created his own self-righteous place to stand. We were not born again to serve ourselves or the ideologies of this world. We were bought with a price and now serve the King of Kings. That seems to be a hard pill for many to swallow. This is nothing more than mind twisting and language games (with a healthy dose of emotion) to manipulate others into buying this. If ‘it is written’ isn’t good enough for us, we need to get on our knees and find out why.
Bottom line, Cole is advocating that it is okay to have unnatural desires towards the same sex as long as you don’t act on them. You can somehow take solace in identifying with this carnal and wicked nature as some sort of badge of honor. In reality that very mindset leads to corrupting the purpose and will of God for His creation...full stop. As does all other sinful mindsets that must be rejected at their roots. Who is giving him the platforms to teach in this manner? Who is reading his books? Apostate Christians, that’s who.
Ghandi once said about his experience of British Christianity ‘’I like their Christ but I don’t like their Christian’’ the same could be said by many ppl throughout the world about much of American Christianity. I tend to see it as ppl of faith are supposed to only engage in sex within committed lifelong relationships and anybody outside of a committed lifelong relationship is called to celibacy whether gay or straight thus for a person of faith to be same sex attracted and to identify as gay is just being truthful just like a heterosexual person of faith is just being truthful when they identify as being straight. For a heterosexual man who is in a committed lifelong relationship with a woman to have desires for other women is normal and natural but the sin is in actively pursuing those desires in the thought life and in seeking out other women to fulfill those desires with in reality. The same is true about a man who has same sex attraction or desires. The sin is in pursuing those desires in the thought life and in seeking out men to fulfill those desires with in reality but not in the same sex attraction itself
A vital debate for our culture today. Praise God.
From listening to this debate, I find it very difficult. Sanctification is possible if the individual is single, and not in a gay marriage. But when the relationship has stepped into a gay marriage, with children involved ( adoption). I believe that sanctification would be very difficult.
I don't know what to make of things these days. There has to be some sort of standard. Are people in common law relationships damned? I know a gay life or marriage isn't the ideal either. I'm not arguing for it. It's led to a lot of culture rot, and is actively promoted to children now.
I don’t know what to think either. Not damning, not supporting… im not one of them so I don’t know how they feel. If it’s a sin and can be repented off, and changed, then why isn’t it as easy for them as when addicts come to Christ? If it’s a fundamental Are You Or Aren’t You, then is it just similar to people being born with physical conditions, who don’t get to participate in certain activities? Some people don’t have legs to run, some people don’t have a path to marriage/sex?
It also doesn’t just doesn’t sit right with me that they’d be divinely excluded from the gift of union…
I don’t know. Paul had his thorn in his flesh.. I seem to have my own too. God bless anyone struggling with this , I hope you can find the answer
A gay marriage cant be sactified, because they are lost without redemption until they REPENT of their wicked sin PERIOD.
@@rocknrolan7371 God designed the nuclear family with a man, woman, and child(ren) model because it is a type of Family that He is building. It is for that reason Christ is called the Husband, the Church is called the Bride of Christ, and the ppl who are called by God during and after the Millennium will be referred to as Their children. Homosexual "unions" are designed to further blind ppl to the true gospel.
@@rocknrolan7371I hear ya. For me it's like the Bible is condemning same gender sex activity most of which any christian today would condemn. With the idol worship attached to it, the pedophilia, the lustfulness of it all. I would even go as far to say it was written to people who considered themselves heterosexuals maybe even married but engaged in that activity for different reasons. None involving love or commitment. I think that is the difficulty for some. It's like one side is saying no no cause of sex being involved and the other side is like ok but sex is not the totality of being with someone you love and to take it a step further let me get married so I'm at least trying the best way. I don't know it's one thing to have not found someone to love and be single. It's another to love and be told nope can't express it.
I have a hard time finding the great importance in this debate, even though I learn from debates, and enjoy watching Dr. White debate. It's hard to tell where the real meat of this question lies, and it's also hard to get past the fine distinctions being made regarding forms of desire. As long as we all agree that sodomy is sin, and nurturing the desire for sodomy is sin, then how one treats or defines the inner capacity to have those desires seems quite secondary, and overly philosophical.
The way I see it as a Christian is two-fold. There is first no need to identify as a "gay" Christian any more than there is need to identify as a fornicator Christian or a violent Christian or a drunk Christian, regardless of whether we are speaking about actions or capacity for desire. However, I also do not believe that being Christian eradicates any and all aberrant desires we have. Even after some time of sanctification, a Christian may experience a wrong desire sometimes. That would include same-sex attraction, among any other.
It is normal to struggle with wrong desires for years. As long one is not identifying with a sin, or practicing it, it's not apart from the born-again life that one has same-sex attraction.
There is no meaning or point. This is a distraction from important issues.
I think the main point is the orientation of the heart---do we recognize the desire is sinful or "unnatural"? If we do, we are led to repentance...not pride in screwing around with language to justify yourself. I think that's one of the main take aways here--one of the oldest tricks in the book--deceitfully manipulating language; ultimately decietfully manipulating gods word. Goes back to the garden. We might see this as a foolish debate. However there us an entire generation enticed in the direction that Gregory represents--and his arguments keep them in that bandage as victims rather than bringing them to repentance as sinners. Oh the pretty lies..
@@brusopatcelts Thank you. I appreciate those insights. The language can definitely be used to make people comfortable in that evil, and sometimes it is. Certainly, the most important is to recognize that it is sin and live a life of repentance and faithfulness.
This comment needs more attention. _bumps_
Well said
Dr. Cole is trying so hard to make it believable. Repent, and become a Christian. The end.
I understand most can’t choose to be gay or not but damn why would anyone choose to be Christian, especially when they’re own experience of being gay shows them first hand that the Bible labeling it as evil is ridiculous lol. Believing the Bible is true is dumber than believing in flat earth, and far more damaging. Like for real these modern day so-called ‘Christian’s’ are so so so far from the way the Bible says to behave and the things the historical Christian’s believed, it’s ridiculous, they want to eat their cake but act like there’s no sugar and other unhealthy crap in it and if you actually remove all the sugar and crap from it it’s BS to even call it “cake” at that point. At least the fundamentalist Christian’s actually are consistent and not cherry picking and trying to remove all the hatred and racist and sexist and ignorant crap from the Bible, they’ll eat there actual cake with all the sugar and crap and they will get very fat and be proud of it!! I would recommend giving up the cake altogether and eating real food, instead of either the full-on sugary Christian cake or the sugar-free ‘modern Christian’ cake that isn’t even cake at that point. But they’re both absolute crap, instead have a nice glass of vegetable juice which in this analogy would represent philosophical investigation of etymology and ontology. Sure it takes some getting used to being able to choose vegetable juice over cake, but at least you won’t be fat and lazy
Starts at 12:05
Thank you 🙏🏼😭
This was a frustrating debate because it was never brought out clearly what the main issue was: There is no allowance made by Scripture for any romantic desire for the same sex. Therefore, it's a form of covetousness. It's a desire we're not permitted to have. Dr Coles needs to see this as a sin to mortify rather than a syndrome to be managed.
I think Cole does see it as sin to mortify and deny. Some people are left w/ struggles that other don't have, and God doesn't always deliver them from it. Becket Cook takes a somewhat different stance, in that he won't call himself a gay Christian. he rightly thinks there's no room in Christianity, no allowance in the bible for that. Becket still remains same sex attracted he admits, but is resolute to be celibate if that's how he remains. He does hope to be married and delivered, but I think it's been a good 10 yrs or so since his conversion. Unlike Becket, Cole seems to be trying to turn it into somewhat of a good thing. Maybe it's a cope, maybe it's being coy, I'm not finished the debate yet. He claims that it's sort of a gift to not be attracted to women, and that strikes me as a coy thing, but could also be a cope, since he is resigned to be how he is.
Becket rejects identity as a "Gay Christian" and sees SSA as something to be forsaken and delivered from, not something to accept and live with in singleness @@saintejeannedarc9460
He never said desire for sex with a man was allowed. All he's saying is "gay" is an accurate way to describe the temptations he experiences in contrast to most men.
He isn’t mortifying it. He is still identifying with his sin. Born again is the appropriate distinction. Not gay.
@@KevinDay It's not that gay isn't a term for being same sex attracted. The problem comes w/ wanting gay Christian to be an acceptable term in churches.
The "lust" IS the sin, revealing an unregenerated heart. Lusts are unholy.
No such thing as an Unholy Christian.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
I agree lust is a sin. But the actions are also always a sin. The sexual actions within marriage are not sinful. Homosexual actions are always sinful with no legitimate marriage. But I agree homosexual lust is sinful
@jerryyoung6494 ALL lusts are sin. You don't "lust" after your wife. Lust is of the flesh, not the Spirit. A man and his wife ARE one flesh, not two. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
You don't have "sex" with your wife, you make love to her, with dignity and honor and respect. It's NOT selfish lusts.
Cole said clearly that he doesn't lust.
Your lying is Abonation!
Proverbs 6:19 KJV
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Find me a regenerated Christian who no longer sins and you have an argument.
@@ManassehJones
Marriage lusts are okay.
Jesus said, "...that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28 NKJV)
How can you have committed lusts against a woman you have a covenant relationship with?
You can't commit adultery with your own wife....wife your own wife.
Regardless of "sex", can you have ANY desires for your own wife?
If you do, then Jesus said you committed adultery with her in your heart.
But we BOTH know it's against women who are not bone of your bone, flesh of your flesh. (Genesis 2, describing marriage.)
Lusts for your own spouse IS A GOOD THING!
Desiring your own spouse exclusively IS A GOOD THING!
Please stop making a fool of yourself, sir.
I'm an unfaithful, adulterous Christian. I'm a violent, mean-spirited Christian. I'm a divisive, conflict generating Christian. I'm a harsh, condemning Christian. I'm a lustful, porn-watching Christian.
Are those legitimate identifiers for one who's been redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus? We have peace with God (Romans 5:1) but the sin battle rages inside. How could it not as we are being purified?
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; rather, it has been found difficult and left untried" - GK Chesterton
I knew of a gal who was a regular at a downtown bar who claimed to be a Christian and a prostitute . Even then in my heathen days I thought that that couldn't be . Maybe Catholic and prostitute but not Christian..
Thank you for your steadfastness Dr. White. God bless you.
There is no debate there’s just truth
The debate is on disagreement about the interpretation(s) of truth
@@allydidier791There is no misinterpretation only revisionism. Scripture is clear and unambiguous on the issue.
Great debate. Why does it look like they are sitting in bath tubs tho?
Man, the patience of Dr. White! Honing in, repeatedly asking, in one form or another, the relevant question: “is homosexual desire inherently disordered and sinful and in need of being relented of”. Only to be met constantly by Dr. Coles’s very wordy stepping back and trying to bring general sexual lust, or sexual activity as opposed to desire, into the conversational focus. I wish Dr. Coles would use fewer words and just say, “No, I don’t think it’s a good thing to try to change a person’s baked-in desires from homosexual to heterosexual.”
Really need a timer for q&a and crossfire. Coles likes to hear himself talk. Should be a 60 second answer to the specific question asked, not 3+ minutes of thinking out loud and going down every avenue of thought.
So i havent even watched this debate and am confused as to why its 3hrs long.
It is the format used. 20 minutes each opening statement, 10 minute each rebuttel, 15 minutes each questioning the other person(2 times), 5 minute closing statement each, then audience Q&A. I actually liked the format because the person could actually talk and you could really hear what they were saying without getting cut off by time. It is worth the 3 hours!! I popped it on while cooking - it was great!
So, how should the church deal with individuals who have a desire/lust to murder? Rape? Steal? When we understand how these should be delt with in the church, we will understand how to treat sodomy.
Sodom is anal rape. Mr Coles doesn't entertain such things.
Mr Coles doesn't go to Walmart telling people he's gay. In specific discussion conditions he choose to just everyone else has their story.
You (must ). Be Born Again. EZK 36: 18-27, JOHN CHAPTER 3, ROMANS CHAPTER 5-8, 1COR 6:9-11.
You can’t serve both Christ and homosexuality at the same time. It’s impossible
well Greg will stop at nothing to attempt to convince you otherwise :)
Imagine being so vain to attempt to speak for a God? Or even assuming you would understand such a God's actions? How utterly vain and self centered.
Is a celibate, gay Christian "serving" homosexuality? If I claim to be a white man, am I "serving" whiteness? A gay Christian who is committed to celibacy is obviously NOT SERVING his/her homosexual desires. I hope that's clear to you.
Why
"Gay Christian" is a contradiction.
Why - nowhere in the Bible is 'being gay' even mentioned.
Here we gooooooo
12:00 - Start of debate.
The flannel guy talked so much but said so little.
Theres a robust and, uh, intriguing converversation to be had, uh, about how it seems to me that among other things Dr. Coles, uh, sure is locquacious, and with regard to getting to the, uh, point, it appears that he tends, uh, to waste a good deal of words, and as it relates to the words which he, uh, wastes, there's an argument to be made that they were, uh, unnecessary to begin with.
I am gay... i cant change heart....well thats the belief that I strongly hold on to before..but reading the bible over and over get me to a point of understanding anything possible to change within if you let God took over your perspectives. I still had attractions to same sex but now its more like dormant, i cant get off intruding thoughts but its the prayer that really helped me to divert, and I am identifying the source of getting lustful desires around me..and over time than I am guarding my ownself paired with my relationship with God..I get used to it and now my life is way more different that Who i was before..change is not a snap its a process, its all on perspectives it all on descipline its more on mindset where God is the center.
Rewiring the brain may be necessary but its certainly not easy. I pray God will help you through that
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Your treasure is to be with the Lord. Don't ever exchange the glory of the Lord for self pleasure. Like you, everyone may face temptation in some form, but run the race, fight the good fight, for there is a crown waiting for you at the end.
@@Luvallo thank you brother for such strong motivation its been a hard journey but knowing that God is my treasure I wouldnt trade what the cross meant for my soul... He is my treasure, my first love and my peace.
@@danpatrick7176 thank you brother... its all for the Glory of Him who created me, who suffered death on the cross in my behalf.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine.
I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for.
Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated.
To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you that homosexuality is not a sin. Being YOU, at your essence, is always good. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it!
In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned.
As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws:
It's an abomination to eat shellfish.
It's an abomination to be tattooed.
It's an abomination to eat pork.
It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites.
Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that.
Paul is the one who says:
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy.
To the pure, all things are pure. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
And Jesus himself said:
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him.
Be pure of heart, and be yourself!
Love and Light!
Wonderful spot to point the line-are you unchangible to God’s conviction of the Spirit
1:12:00 into the video and its Excellent. Both so far have explained their point of view clearly. That changed Fast. Now Cole is Playing Word Games with Lust and Desire.
I think the tension point throughout much of this debate for me, is that someone early on needed to acknowledge the most obvious and crucial truth: Sin, regardless of when, why or where it arises, is sin - period, regardless of whether it is same-sex behavior derived from temptation, or illicit heterosexual behavior derived from temptation. Dr. White seems to give the impression that because someone struggles with a temptation to lust over the same sex-even if they resist that and remain faithful to Christ in repentance through their thought life and behavior, that until that goes away completely, there's no way they can truly have saving faith. What about the world full of former alcoholics and addicts? Does that mean that if they ever have an urge to drink or use drugs again, that because that desire surfaces from time-to-time, that something must be wrong with their Christian identity?
I think you're misunderstanding Dr White's claim. I never heard him say that until the gayness goes away that they're not saved.
what I heard him say was that "and such were some of you" included both physical sins and sins of the heart, meaning that neither the physical sin of gayness, or the sins of the heart of gayness, are immutable.
@@nvrprfct9176 You're totally right ... I hadn't finished the entire debate when I wrote my initial comment. Great debate!
@@HaroldZwingley so... you would argue that homosexuality requires demon possession? that's a bit of a stretch. where do you find that in scripture?
@nvrprfct9176 he didn't say anything about possession, but it's possible possession might be taking place. I believe he is at least claiming there is demonic influence and oppression. While that's not explicitly confirmed in scripture, it's not denied either.
@@BornAgain223 "infest" .... "as long as the demons are within" ...
since demon possession is something that only happens to those that aren't christians, he's kinda claiming that those who have homo problems aren't christians. I think you oughta have a bible verse to back up something like that.
Dr. White your debating skills and your understanding of the Bible is amazing. Let's pray for Dr. Coles!
It appears to me that he is reaching
out.
If anyone claims that he was "born gay," then he needs to be born again.
Some people are plagued w/ same sex attraction from a very young age. I don't know why that is, but for some people, that has been their reality. It's not that I'm arguing for living a gay lifestyle, but some people have a heavier cross to bear when it comes to living a Christian life. I would not want to have this struggle. It is enough to struggle w/ getting into a Christian marriage.
@@saintejeannedarc9460
Would you say the same thing about kleptomania? What about the one who has urges to murder? Rape?
Are you born a sinner?
@@jetrpg22 We all are.
@@jetrpg22
Man is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) due to the imputation of Adam's sin (Romans 5). However, no one is born gay as if it were a genetic disposition... since homosexual individuals by definition do not have heterosexual, procreative relationships, there is no way for any gay-genetic-disposition to be passed down to offspring. If homosexuality was genetic, then it would have died off after the first homosexual person failed to pass on their genes.
So if someone claims to be born gay, how then are they asserting that they were born that way? Is it their assertion that God made them gay? Does God also make people murderers, rapists, and thieves?
The answer is simple. NO!
@Dr Coles your experience means feeling, emotion, inclination, perspective, which all toward self seems weighty or more important than the Scripture. If you're in Christ and Christ is in you, the Holy Spirit indwells in you to regenerate you.
Thank God for James White who knows Jesus Christ our Savior, the other guy wants his sin and he desires it, he doesn’t have the Holy Spirit
Cole wasn't saying he wants his sin. He acknowledged it is sin and that he needs to remain celibate. He seems to be resigned to that calling. He seems to want acceptance in the church for being gay though and to have that unacceptable title of gay Christian to be acceptable in the church. Which is just another trojan horse. We already got suckered as a society w/ the acceptance of gay rights. Not that gays didn't deserve equal rights under the law for many things they were denied before, but it's been a slippery slope to kids getting taught it in schools and now transitioning w/out parental consent.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 His failure is believing God is not powerful enough to change his disordered desires. He needs to give up his tight grasp on his belief that he will not have his attractions changed, or that God does not want that for him.
@@brando3342 I don't know that it's a tight grasp, it sounded like a cope to me. God can do anything. Most of the time God chooses not to and leaves us w/ our misery and afflictions.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 The point is, he’s so unwilling to actively corporate with God in the changing of his desires, that he has completely conceded that territory of his mind to the devil. Which is obviously a bad thing. If he hadn’t already given in, he wouldn’t be labeling himself “gay Christian”.
While they say that healthy debate is required to remove some cobwebs, and a sign of tolerance, the fact that this subject is even being debated is a really sad state of affairs. If "yesterday, today and forever Jesus is the same", what are we doing. Let's get Bible basìcs right first, straight from the Bible.
The problem with allowing anyone/everyone to partake of fellowship within the congregational setting is that these issue will continue to resurface. We are called to give an answer to all for the hope that we have, but this should be done outside the "Church". All the followers of Jesus are called to manifest the fruits of the Spirit in the world we live by dealing with these issues out there, not running like cowards to our pastors to deal with. False teaching always hurts the children as they think they are discovering things no one thought of before.
@@DANIELRODRIGUEZ-yr3et Absolutely, and observing how some pastors have been diluting the Word of God, unless we care enough to be aware what's written in the Bible, we can easily be misled to believe that this is what our God intends us to know and live by.
Amen, lvandgr8224 ~
would Jesus “tolerate” or “justify” this lifestyle? No. What comes to my mind is His statement, “Go, and SIN No MORE.”
@@margareteveland4170 Margaret, totally with you. Like I said, since Jesus never changes because He is God, and He has condemned sin and has in fact reinforced OT laws, any talk of gay rights within the church is blasphemy. But Jesus loves the sinner and that is what Christians should do, but not allow any form of homoseexuality etc., to be even discussed, let alone be accepted. Homoseexuality, like permissive sex and lasciviousness within heterogeneous alignments is SIN.
Why is this even being debated....It is clear in scripture that you can NOT be a Christian and be gay.....God makes it clear where homosexuals eternity lies...
How so?
Because the debate is temptations of the flesh, ie sin.
None of us are free from it while we have this flesh (who our being is free from it). Thus all of us are tempted in many ways. Some have areas they are weaker on: $$, lying, cheating, immoral attractions, etc.
While we have the flesh we will all fail, its is Jesus' righteousness that frees us.
@@narindraramanankasaina2545
According to the book of Jude, God's word, homosexuality is absolutely wrong.
(Jude is only 25 verses. Please read the book of Jude.)
I was addressing someone else, but his comment disappeared...
@@jetrpg22 The Word is all we need ….It is clear ….Debate is not needed …All it shows is man’s ignorance and arrogance
I’m just glad that both of these people are saved and that this is not a salvific issue
I've known some great homosexual guys that really struggled trying to walk as a Christian, but tortured by their sexual desires. I applaud anyone who stays in the fight, and for simply doing the best they can.
That's the attitude ❤
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine.
I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for.
Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated.
To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you that homosexuality is not a sin. Being YOU, at your essence, is always good. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it!
In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned.
As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws:
It's an abomination to eat shellfish.
It's an abomination to be tattooed.
It's an abomination to eat pork.
It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites.
Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that.
Paul is the one who says:
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy.
To the pure, all things are pure. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
And Jesus himself said:
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him.
Be pure of heart, and be yourself!
Love and Light!
The bizarre thing is that the young man admits in his opening statement why he calls himself this “gay Christian” oxymoron. It is to be accepted by other gay people. 31 min mark. Debate is over at this point. Could you imagine the ramifications of this mindset. Hi I am Jason the apathetic Christian in name, so I don’t make my apathetic friends feel bad🙃. And if the source of your sin is attraction to other gay men, why would you go to be a part of that community. For men who struggle with lust after women, no one ever then says they should go do ministry at a brothel. This was sadly, a lot of word games and rhetoric and the worst was trying to parse out a behavior from the heart disposition in 1 Cor 6:9-11. This would be like telling someone you can look but not touch, except that the sermon on the mount and the whole of Scripture says the opposite.
Dr. Coles is incredibly articulate. Amazing presentation